Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have absolutely no clue how to argue with transphobes.
Here is an argument I'm having on a particularly transphobic youtube video (Ace Ventura Proving She's A Man! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFL1UXuHJ-A#)):

Youtuber 1: what in her undies? 0_o

Youtuber 2: Male genitalia. A penis and testicles, his to be exact.

Youtuber 3: [sarcasm/] No, he had a male vagina... [/sarcasm]

Me: Um, just because you have a penis doesn't mean you are male and just because you have a vagina, doesn't make you female... You are an idiot.

Youtuber 4: That's exactly what it means. The words female or male refer to biological sex.

Me: Gender overrides biological sex. A transman does not want to be called a "female" and a transwoman doesn't want to be called "male". Transpeople are human beings that just want to be recognised for who they are. Whether you may realise it or not, transpeople are not just fetish objects for everyone to laugh at.

Youtuber 4: Gender = biological sex. What they want to be called doesn't change what they actually are. Certainly they are human beings, but they don't want to be recognized for who they are, they want the opposite, for others to avoid recognizing what they are and regard them as what they are not.



This makes me so mad and I have no idea how to respond. I tried to tell him that transpeople just want to be recognised as the gender we identify with, but he continues to insist that our gender is defined by our genitals. Does anyone have any idea of what I should respond with?

Yes, you should not respond. Some people are lost causes and no matter what you say they will not listen. It sometimes brings me great sadness when I read those things or hear things like "it should not use the women's room." And it really affects me. I don't use the rest room because of it and I pass almost 100 percent. In fact, I barely pass when presenting male but still have this hang up.

On another note, I remember that scene when I was a little kid and I don't think I ever felt so small after seeing it. I do remember thinking it would be great if one day I could look like her but then I remember all the laughter and it is like a 1,000 sharp knives cutting me at once. It probably turned me off from transitioning for years.

The funny thing is Jim Carrey won't put out that one movie because of violence but what about the violence this movie causes. real violence. real effects. real hate. He can justify as comedy all he wants but no one would ever do that do another minority group. We really are the last group it is okay to hate and attack. I know a lot of groups like to claim victimhood, but trans violence is real. Just the other day a trans woman was killed just 30 blocks from me, cut up like a steak, and strewn across an abandoned lot in Philadelphia.

But I try to avoid these online discussions as they leave me hollow everytime and cause such great dyspohria.

Rule No.1 "Don't feed the troll". Most of them are trolls and You can only beat them by counter-trolling but thats very counterproductive and You are basically wasting Your time. The rest of them are just, sorry, retards, and You cant beat them in an argument, unless You are using arguments like a wrench tool and flamethrower, but that's sort of dumb anyway. So, anything less extreme and violent, and You will find Yourself getting stuck in a swamp and worst of all, at the end of the day You will be feeling like a retard too...

P.S. I recently saw a trans-themed T-shirt with an excellent quote - "I am not confused about my gender. You are"

The problem with arguing with 'phobic people is that they cannot and will not reason. Therefore they will not  change their minds.

To be able to think in a rational manner you need to be able to accept facts and understand facts that disagree with your argument.

A hypothesis can then be given by building on the facts. You can then test that by examining how your hypothesis - your thought, opinion etc stands up to the facts that you throw at it.

Unless a person is willing to do that you may as well argue to a brick.

There is a host of information and evidence about gender conditions in the scientific literature, and on the Wiki here.

It is sad but there are people who cannot think; there are still people who think the Earth is flat and created in seven days. Dinosaurs and humans co-inhabited, immunisation is bad for you and that no one has landed on the Moon, and that trans*people don't exist.

Is there a reason to argue with such people?

Cindy

Now speaking about dinosaurs and immunisation... :P
Grabs my tin foil hat :P

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 04:22:01 AM
Rule No.1 "Don't feed the troll". Most of them are trolls and You can only beat them by counter-trolling but thats very counterproductive and You are basically wasting Your time. The rest of them are just, sorry, retards, and You cant beat them in an argument, unless You are using arguments like a wrench tool and flamethrower, but that's sort of dumb anyway. So, anything less extreme and violent, and You will find Yourself getting stuck in a swamp and worst of all, at the end of the day You will be feeling like a retard too...

P.S. I recently saw a trans-themed T-shirt with an excellent quote - "I am not confused about my gender. You are"

Too cute!!!!

This may have to be in the new range of Susie's Fashion label!!

Quote from: Cindy. on July 22, 2013, 04:24:52 AM
The problem with arguing with 'phobic people is that they cannot and will not reason. Therefore they will not  change their minds.

To be able to think in a rational manner you need to be able to accept facts and understand facts that disagree with your argument.

A hypothesis can then be given by building on the facts. You can then test that by examining how your hypothesis - your thought, opinion etc stands up to the facts that you throw at it.

Unless a person is willing to do that you may as well argue to a brick.

There is a host of information and evidence about gender conditions in the scientific literature, and on the Wiki here.

It is sad but there are people who cannot think; there are still people who think the Earth is flat and created in seven days. Dinosaurs and humans co-inhabited, immunisation is bad for you and that no one has landed on the Moon, and that trans*people don't exist.

Is there a reason to argue with such people?

Cindy

Oh god, that is too true. The funny thing about arguing with these types of people is that almost always the intelligent, rational person loses or is sucked into the idiocy.

It can get enjoyable >:-)

I did have a person of a religion, that does not agree with evolution, come to preach to me at my front door; who with complete sincerity agreed that according to her belief that  if I put my little cat into the African jungle it would grow to be a Lion.

Hallelujah

You may like to look at some discussions by James Randi on You tube. He is a professional magician who likes to debunk people who sell their 'ideas' as being true events rather than tricks. He is an intelligent well spoken person who uses reason to back his arguments. And very entertaining!


BTW I love good tricks and magic entertainment, I adore Penn and Teller, but I know that they are fooling me with skill, not by half baked ideas that my pet cat would see through.

To be honest when you are open minded and can think and argue, rationally, you can get great entertainment from some people.

ECindy

I'm sorry but I have enough of my own issues without taking on any responsibility or promoting other people's issues.

I'm okay with people saying that I'm a man, that I'm a freak, that I'm a sexual deviant, and you know if they gets their rocks off by doing that then more power to them.

If you want to make yourself look an idiot by shooting off your mouth on half-baked theories and unchecked assumptions and you take pride in looking emotionally immature and showing off your mean and nasty side then please..,. be my guest.

I know exactly who I am, I know who I'm not. I don't need the stress, the drama, the hassle.

It doesn't bother me because whatever is said isn't true. It doesn't bother me because it's my personal experience, my history and my story is based on truth, it's based on empirical evidence, and it's supported by those in the medical profession who've also invested years in acquiring their knowledge.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.prosoundweb.com%2Findex.php%3FPHPSESSID%3Di4i506kd7kbh11sl4r71sbeo30%26amp%3Baction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D142168.0%3Battach%3D6915%3Bimage&hash=b35938894d32b52649e5d69ea27e924de98a60d9)

"How to argue with transphobes?"

You don't. You can't educate the ineducable. In the greater realm of things, they are insignificant, they are as relevant as a piece of lint. Save your energy for the bigger battles.

Quote from: Nicolette on July 22, 2013, 06:56:00 AM
You don't. You can't educate the ineducable.

Sometimes transphobia is just some instrument of pushing own thoughts away. I was kinda transphobic for a long time until I realized that I used to be phobic to myself. But still your point is kinda valid; you can't cure this type of transphobia as well. It will cure itself at some future time.

I really can't see that argument with any good outcome on your part. People are people and a lifetime of preconcieved notions are hard to make an intellegent argument against. But you can make them think about it though and point out their own "shortcomings".

Of course the argument has to be relative to to the person you are arguing with. Everyone is a legend in their own mind and that "legend" is very fragile and usually well protected. Once attacked they will attack back and you know if you have hit a nerve. Then stop all arguments and fade into the background and let them think.

Alright, I have to disagree here.

First, I don't agree with writing people off. The world becomes educated one ignorant person at a time.

Second, don't argue labels. Is she a woman? Is she a man? Going to be a semantic discussion.

Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

Letting people facts about transgender helps: (1) Transgender is not a choice. (2) It typically doesn't go away on its own and no medical way has been discovered to "cure" it. (3) Transgender is serious. Depression and suicide are common among people who don't transition. (4) Transition is an effective treatment.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 22, 2013, 10:08:23 AM
Alright, I have to disagree here.

First, I don't agree with writing people off. The world becomes educated one ignorant person at a time.

Second, don't argue labels. Is she a woman? Is she a man? Going to be a semantic discussion.

Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

Letting people facts about transgender helps: (1) Transgender is not a choice. (2) It typically doesn't go away on its own and no medical way has been discovered to "cure" it. (3) Transgender is serious. Depression and suicide are common among people who don't transition. (4) Transition is an effective treatment.

It is nice to know that idealists still live among us...

Don't let them rent space in your head.  And never confuse them with the facts, their minds are already made up.

I would just say "okay" and move on.

I think probably the first thing to accept is that there are still many, many people who hold those opinions. Whether through ignorance, belligerence, whatever the reason may be. And that there's no way to know whether they are actually transphobic or just haven't had access to information and are forming knee-jerk opinions out of hear-say and whatever else.

In that regard, perhaps a suitable thing to do would be to inform this person/people that there is a wealth of information out there if they would like to read up on the subject. And if not, then really there's nothing else you can say, other than you hope they change their narrow-minded view at some point.

Fighting fire with fire leads, more often than not, to an inferno from which everyone gets burned. The most disarming way to approach things is by being kind, calm and considerate. When you don't rise to someone's obvious baiting, they don't know what to do. After all, you know what's right, and who you are. The most you can hope for is that the people you're speaking with will go off and get more information on the subject. If they do, and maybe their views change... all well and good.

If they don't, sadly that's their choice. You can't change their views for them. They have to do it themselves. You just say what you feel you need to say, and leave it at that.

To quote Morpheus: "I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

That's my view, anyway. :)

Quote from: TheMultipleOne on July 22, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
Arguing on the internet is like beating your head against a wall. Even if you manage to win... it isn't worth it.

You can't beat "The Internet".

^^^ +1

I have had this problem for years - if someone accuses you of being something you are not - you are not - you simply ignore them . they do not wish to be educated - this person WANTS to hurt you. They invalidate your existence. If possible block them or unsubscribe to the thread.

only when someone who invalides you actually physically confronts you and attacks you do you HAVE to defend your self - if possible walk away. Only if totally necessary use force with a bigot.

The answer is don't bother, as others have pointed out. They're no doubt just as likely to change their minds as you are.

Also, completely ignore comments like this when you're clearly in the minority; it'll help keep your sanity.

Fear not my friend! ^_^ Your brothers and sisters are here to tell you how right you are and how wrong they are. And in time you will soon find that being backed up by all of us, and that knowledge that the argument is obviously yours, may actually be far more important to you than whether or not this random stranger is smart enough to understand what you're saying or not. In truth, calling them silly and having us agree with you that they are silly, and simply dismissing the fact that they will always be silly is far more rewarding than winning any potential argument should they prove that they in fact can appeal to reason.( I personally doubt it.)

You are arguing with a post, and even if you tell it there is more to life than being a post, it still won't say anything intelligent back to you.

Quote from: Nicolette on July 22, 2013, 06:56:00 AM
"How to argue with transphobes?"

You don't. You can't educate the ineducable. In the greater realm of things, they are insignificant, they are as relevant as a piece of lint. Save your energy for the bigger battles.

Plus, you're on teh Interwebz...everyone's IQ and reasoning ability drops by 2d100...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1186.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz368%2Fhazel_eyes1911%2Fwrong-on-the-internet_zpsf3c336e2.png&hash=67342ad4bda24e5b25ee81b0ca830d3db35d3da6)

Quote<--snip-->This makes me so mad and I have no idea how to respond. I tried to tell him that transpeople just want to be recognised as the gender we identify with, but he continues to insist that our gender is defined by our genitals. Does anyone have any idea of what I should respond with?<--snip-->

I hear ya.  I've found that the need for the attempt to 'logic someone' into an empathic position is harmful to ourselves in the first place.  That we are even engaging him on this level means, that by him, you have been mistreated and objectified by defining your mind and self as a function of your body parts.  Which means 'he doesn't get it' and so he is not 'seeing' you [Avatar, the movie, empathy concept].  He is seeing a phantom of his own two dimensional stereotypes in his mind and distorting others' personhoods.  He is also not aware that there is a double standard in what he is doing:

How would he feel if the world told him he wasn't male?


You might want to try a 'thought experiment'.  For example, has he seen Stargate Universe.  Ask him to think of the stones that swap minds and bodies of two people.  Ask him to imagine that swapping a body is possible, and ask him what he would think if he found himself waking up one day in a woman's body and being same-sex attracted because his mind was still the same.  Would he begin to grasp that he was still 'male', first of all because he was the same 'person' and then, would he begin to realise that biological sex, gender identity, as you well have lived are distinct, then would he begin to grasp that's the same for sexual orientation as well.  The world's really slow about the whole area.

Then say to him--the chemicals in the new brain changed his sexual orientation and he started liking the sight of men and how would he feel then, were the change beyond his control.

I dunno :)

If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them... :(

Quote from: -Emily- on July 23, 2013, 02:22:46 AM
If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them... :(

I would've just said I was supergay around line 3 and left it at that.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 22, 2013, 10:08:23 AM
Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

That might be successful in some circumstances.

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 12:36:17 PM
It is nice to know that idealists still live among us...

Idealists and their dreams are what changes the world.

Quote from: TheMultipleOne on July 22, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
You can't beat "The Internet".

Unfortunately this most certainly is true.

Look, they most likely wouldn't even pass the Turing test, let alone become educated. They may only have one parameter, a static, no less. Even if you could educate tête-à-tête, there are literally hordes, millions, willing to take their place. It has to be done en masse, otherwise you're wasting your energies. Unless, as has been said, it's an immediate physical attack. For one's own sanity: ignore.

Quote from: Nicolette on July 23, 2013, 04:45:17 AM
It has to be done en masse, otherwise you're wasting your energies.

Are we talking about WMD here? ;)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRq06n23u1KrfHADACGU96Ps-OECTpFs-Alw5XH6OlwOYOjSmzA&hash=e7979e8e64f60eb06de92974cff9d0d67c73f22f)

Quote from: -Emily- on July 23, 2013, 05:17:06 AM
Are we talking about WMD here? ;)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRq06n23u1KrfHADACGU96Ps-OECTpFs-Alw5XH6OlwOYOjSmzA&hash=e7979e8e64f60eb06de92974cff9d0d67c73f22f)

Wisdom via Mass Dissemination

Quote from: -Emily- on July 23, 2013, 02:22:46 AM
If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them... :(

The worst thing is the bigots are allowed to do this to you all day online totally unmoderated, and if you say the least thing in response you are banned as being hateful, since we are the ones who are subhuman, even the forums think so

Quote from: -Emily- on July 23, 2013, 02:22:46 AM
If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them... :(

I've seen threads that look exactly like this - even on supposedly "friendly" sites.  The Escapist is always touted as having one of the most "intelligent, inclusive" gaming communities.  Some recent polls showed that a majority of the site is horrifically transphobic, the comments significantly worse (people started calling transgirls "dudes" just to annoy them).  Trolling or not, it's aggravating to say the least.

Quote from: Miss Bungle on July 24, 2013, 11:50:59 PM
I just ignore them or if I get angry enough, tell them to f**k off and be done with it. I don't waste my time getting into long winded arguments with idiots like that.

Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. But you can argue with non-idiots.

Quote from: PiaBianca on July 25, 2013, 02:25:51 AM
Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. But you can argue with non-idiots.

I tend to take this position--not always.  I've found that trying to 'argue' about areas where people are prejudiced often gets their backs up.  They end up responding to feeling invalidated and disagreed with, or take issue with your tones, and or feel threatened about what you're saying (probably because they, on some level, are in denial about those aspects of their opposite-gendered self they've squashed way down deep and can't bear to accept).  Nett result, they get hot around the collar and remember how they felt about the argument, not what was said.

The same selfishness that blocks their sight (empathy) and that is about their own denial or blind spots in their capacity to read real truth, makes them unwilling to scrutinise the self.  It ends up being 'your issue--I don't like how they make me feel' rather than an empathy-development exercise for them.

Has anyone heard these ones:

you're lecturing me and patronising me.  I know what's right and what a man and a woman is.
don't be selfish.  You're ruining our family's reputation and quite clearly we know what sex  you are.
you're just doing this for attention.
how can you like 'girls' if you want to change sex and be a girl?  You're messed up, and don't make your issue ours.

etc.  Transphobia, like homophobia, and xenophobia is quite pernicious.  I believe that, ultimately, love, the greater power breaks those stereotypes.  Through fear of loss of loved ones.  Through the fortune of crises that transphobes go through that 'break' their 2 dimensional beliefs.  Through acts of courage by strong men and women who know who they are, in their true selves...

Quote from: Horizon on July 25, 2013, 12:35:59 AM
I've seen threads that look exactly like this - even on supposedly "friendly" sites.  The Escapist is always touted as having one of the most "intelligent, inclusive" gaming communities.  Some recent polls showed that a majority of the site is horrifically transphobic, the comments significantly worse (people started calling transgirls "dudes" just to annoy them).  Trolling or not, it's aggravating to say the least.

You know, I was recently searching something about average muscle/body etc ratios- looking for possible triggers? :P - and one of the google links led me to bodybuilder forum. There was one bright dude, who had posted thatpriceless question "Does watching t-porn makes you gay and would You make out with  a t-girl?" - at some point there was a picture of Kimber James posted as well (You can look her up at Your own discretion - NSFW) - there was a poll too. Now, what was funny - the thread was full with transphobic comments and suggestions that the OP was fag and cant admit it, yet.... The poll was totally different :P What I saw from those numbers was that about 80% of those bodybuilders would watch that and do this :P. That made my day :)

You only hear those who shout the loudest.

Quote from: PiaBianca on July 26, 2013, 01:58:05 AM
You only hear those who shout the loudest.

:) somewhere between 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease' and 'the goose that sticks its head out....' and all that :)

'the powerful lobby group who effect social change', versus the 'disaffected, persecuted minority who cannot be themselves for fear of reprisal'.

I'm still figuring out when to do each one, and when to choose my moment, and when to be quiet for the right occasion....

Quote from: vegie271 on July 24, 2013, 11:45:51 PM



The worst thing is the bigots are allowed to do this to you all day online totally unmoderated, and if you say the least thing in response you are banned as being hateful, since we are the ones who are subhuman, even the forums think so

Not here, they're not.

Quote from: Jamie D on July 26, 2013, 11:03:57 PM
Not here, they're not.

true I come here for safety, there is one other place I go to and there they get deleted also, it is on facebook and Yahoo and Goggle+ and Twitter, Don't get me started on >-bleeped-<

at least on Tumb1r you can blacklist AND you can report a lot better although now that it has been taken over by Yahoo it will probably get worse

not to mention all the dating sites

I don't argue with them I tell them to colour their books in.

Quote from: big kim on July 27, 2013, 03:55:03 AM
I don't argue with them I tell them to colour their books in.

*pops in*

:laugh: ha ha ha -

*vanishes in puff of smoke*

Most people today accept that being prejudice towards somebody for the colour of their skin is ridiculous. I hope that in the near future it will be seen as ridiculous to be prejudice towards somebody for their gender.

I think the key is to first notice what kind of transphobic person your dealing with. what this person is to you and whats there agument.

is this a random person on the internet or is it someone in your famely? You must also value with yourself how much energy you feel like using on people if there not too important, theres always idiots and some of them are a waste of time to use your energy on, as already said dont feed the troll if you meet one.
-------
I would say theres 3 kinds of transphobic, theres those who think your wrong no matter what you say,
then theres those who just dont know any better and those who belive there right because they had a certain way to think which is diffrent than yours.
--
those who dont know any better are pretty easy because there not ignorant of hate just by well ignorance so if you explain things to them in a nice way they usunally change there view.

people who have a certain kind of way of thinking and thats the reason for there transphobia is more difficult, and aguing with them you have to go with your point and reflext it to theres so you have to ask alot to notice what they belive and why and you have to put your answer in that kind of sense to make them understand.
-
taking an exemple: "theres only men or women" <- statement
"who said that?" <-- asking into there point
"thats how nature created us" <--- getting there view
"nature didnt only create male or female speicies also hermophodite and sexchanging animals" <- taking there view into your agument.
for exemple
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and then the last category of no matter what you say you will be wrong, and you shouldnt wast your time of those people, and if you do anyway make them agenst there own statements and have fun with them explaining themself out of it..
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in general know what kind of person your dealing with, try to understand there view, and try as much as posible not to get angry. jugde if there even worth this and if not then put your time in something better.

I think a way to know how to argue with transphobes, racist, sexist, or in general just someone you have an agument for whatever reason is to learn non violent communication. it is very difficult but I think it makes things more easy and less stressfull if you get it right.

I dont think its something you just learn, I still got problems in non violent communications and I belive everyone who grown up in a culture of political good or bad, are finding it difficult to learn, but I think the point is to try.

My all time favorite internet forum is apollohoax.net (I especially love the posts by a board member called JayUtah). It's dead now, but I still occasionally re-read some of the old discussions there. I've read several thousand posts on that forum but I can't remember a single instance of a hoax-believer ever changing his or her mind. In light of this I guess the discussions were futile.

On the other hand, I've learned so much from reading these discussions (like for instance the difference between a 1201 and 1202 alarm) even though not one single member of the ignoramus club ever changed their minds. It's all good for me though cause I got to be educated in physics, engineering practices, history, math, geology, photography, computer technology, formal logic etc. I'm so glad that forum exists, because if it didn't I'd be a less knowledgeable than I am right now.

Just because no-ones mind will possibly changed doesn't mean your efforts will be wasted. Someone out there is sure to read what you wrote and appreciate the effort you put into it. And then there's your own benefit - you get to practice skills in critical thinking and arguing. That can't be a bad thing, now can it? I think you should do it.

I've not long back been dealing with a transphobe in my local shop. It's an older guy with a drink problem who came in for his Special Brew at the same time I was in the shop. He's there behind me giving it the comments and the swear words.

In the end I turned round to him and said, 'Look, I don't have any monkeys and you're so not my type, but if I give you a toss will you please keep your mouth shut?'

A few s>-bleeped-<s in the queue, and his mouth was shut.

However I don't think that words work, at least not as effectively as direct positive action.

A few years back I was volunteering in a night shelter with the homeless and I got abused (in Polish) by some of the homeless Poles. They knew I understood because one of my duties was to translate between Polish and English.

A couple of nights later and these Poles were involved in a fight with some of the native homeless and the ringleader got his nose broke before anyone could intervene. I helped split the fight up and I grabbed the ringleader and a friend and got another volunteer to drive us to the hospital. At the hospital I translated for him with the receptionist, doctors and X ray and back in the waiting room kept him and his friend supplied with teas and coffees.

Sat in the waiting room the ringleader asked me why I had been so willing to help him when he and his friends had been so abusive and hurtful to me a few nights before.

'I think you need to stop deceiving yourself,' I said (in Polish), 'You and your friends weren't the first people to abuse me and you're definitely not going to be the last. You didn't hurt me because everything you said I'd heard it all before. I'm used to it but you know, I'm me and I cannot be anyone else but me, so I have to get used to it. I came forward to help you because I first told people I was transgendered in Poland and I didn't want you to be in the same position I was back then.'

There was a silence, then he smiled, held out his hand and said (in English) 'You my friend.'

It's important to remember that transphobia, like homophobia comes from a position of fear. These people hold views about gender which are too rigid. We kind of throw them off balance, they become insecure, then afraid. The transphobic woman is insecure about her own femininity.

The transphobic man is generally scared that the transwoman will treat him the same way he treats women.

Quote from: StellaB on August 03, 2013, 01:02:42 PM

The transphobic man is generally scared that the transwoman will treat him the same way he treats women.

I cut it short just to save space - - not every transphobic person just SAYS nasty things - the last transphobic person I met bashed my head against the cement and kicked me practically to death

Quote from: vegie271 on August 03, 2013, 03:49:30 PM


I cut it short just to save space - - not every transphobic person just SAYS nasty things - the last transphobic person I met bashed my head against the cement and kicked me practically to death

D:!!!!!! That's horrible!!!! *hugs for you*

Quote from: Natkat on August 03, 2013, 10:19:13 AM

I would say theres 3 kinds of transphobic,

You missed the 4th type, the in the closet, in denial transgender, that hates because they aren't yet able to admit that they are themselves trans*...

I'm ashamed to admit I was of this type, not violently, or blatantly rude, but I was still there, and made a few transphobic comments to third parties... :embarrassed:

I wish this was a more current topic, I thought it was really relevant..?

I tend to ignore most people with this attitude today, but a few years ago I would have taken on the most ignorant people and theyre views, and argued till I either they hated me for relentlessly standing on my beliefs, or I them, for them not being even willing to entertain another view.. Usually it ended in yelling, and damaged friendships..

Today I realize that you can catch more flies (or people) with that proverbial honey, than you can with a hammer... One of the great things about a forum like this one, is the wealth of life experiences and situations that anyone can draw from, and share verbally with so called "non believers" in a real way that can't be easily discounted or argued against, and in fact many people who don't understand what transgender is or means, may find quite inspirational, and touch them in a much deeper way than just a loud debate would...

I'm pretty optimistic because on my other pages like Facebook I have very diverse groups, everything from Muslims to Mormons, and every orientation and ethnic group, and I post a lot of trans stuff, signs, sayings, etc, and basically everyone is accepting, at least outwardly, of any trans issues or ideals I post, and I think that says a lot about people in general..? I hope the number of ignorant people is shrinking..? It might not feel like it to many of you who get disrespect and ridicule often, but with all of the recent media attention to trans celebs, and the way so many diverse people can meet and get to know each other online, things just have to be getting better as far as transphobia, and more and more people accepting and understanding.......

There's my rant for the day...

With the wilfully ignorant, it's best to tune them out and hope "nature takes its course" with them, so to speak.  If they are genuinely harbouring some anger or disgust, nothing says a big f#*% you like living your life.

Quote from: Kimberley Beauregard on September 10, 2014, 02:45:37 PM
With the wilfully ignorant, it's best to tune them out and hope "nature takes its course" with them, so to speak.  If they are genuinely harbouring some anger or disgust, nothing says a big f#*% you like living your life.

That has to be the winning argument so far.

You can't.

You CAN troll them though, and sometimes that's too hard to resist.  :laugh:

In real life I just tell them that they really need to work on their pickup lines.

Quote from: Queen B on October 09, 2014, 02:28:26 PM
You can't.

You CAN troll them though, and sometimes that's too hard to resist.  :laugh:

How true. It really seems to irritate them when you attack them and they try to attack back and think they are going to get a rise out of you and don't even act phased by it. I can see them in their mother's basements in their Cheetoh stained Tshirt with a red face and a BP that is dangerously close to giving them a stroke. It's really fun. But you can't let them get into your head though.