Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

Quote from: regina on June 15, 2007, 09:26:36 AM
It's about your own insecurity. You're not grounded in who you are. Is your reaction unusual... no. Is it especially healthy... no.

Exactly. I'm guilty of it too, and I think it just exposes my OWN fears of never passing and so on. It's not THEM I'm ashamed and embarassed of, it's ME.

~Kate~

QuoteExactly. I'm guilty of it too, and I think it just exposes my OWN fears of never passing and so on. It's not THEM I'm ashamed and embarassed of, it's ME.

Your not guilty of anything but having a natural reaction towards something, that in this society, is not the norm. Of this I am certain. It happens to me everyday. I live in county that is 98% white. We were at the county seat last week and there was a black man walking down the street. I saw African Americans all the time when I lived in the Chicago area. I had very little reaction when I saw someone of African decent when we lived near Chicago. Now in our white county I had a different reaction because it was unexpected. Did I go hail down the next pickup truck or alert the authorities? NO. Did you go alert the Drag police? I bet not. We've grown beyond that (I hope).

I also bet that if you had an opportunity to talk to the person and hear her story you would react differently the next time you saw her.

Its okay. You're okay. I'm okay. The fact that we recognize that we shouldn't rely only on that initial natural response proves it.

Debbie

Would an "unpassable transwoman" be a woman that tries to pass as trans but anyone can tell she's a GG? I know a couple of very "passable transwomen" I don't know if they trans or GG but they can sure "pass" for trans. You have to "pass" when you are trying to represent yourself as something you aren't. I have to "pass" every time I go out as a guy, but I don't have to pass as a woman neither do the women you are judging. Maybe if you put less focus on being pretty and FFS and BA and whatever else to make GG's jealous, instead of seeing "unpassable transwomen" you would just see "women".

Quote from: melissa90299Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended.

I do feel something, but it isn't offense. It seems similar to the sympathy I felt around my late aunt. She was  big boned, broad chinned and often taken for a man. She didn't like it of course, but was used to dealing with it.

OTOH I have no time for transsexuals who will out another intentionally. That happened when a person I knew from a Milwaukee transgender group came to Janesville to go shopping with me and another TS friend. She arrived wearing as T that said TRANS AND PROUD (or close, don't recall exact wording). She wouldn't change, so my friend and I refused to go in public with her. Not because we were ashamed of being transsexual, but because we didn't want to be clocked.

I think your reaction is totally understandable Melissa given the number of images of 'perfect' woman and manhood that are projected at us every day by the media, and also given the continual reinforcement of these stereotypes by so many individuals in the trans community. That said, reactions like this do make me feel uncomfortable as I can't help feeling that in some way there's an element of eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) lurking, menacingly behind the scenes.  It wasn't long ago that Hitler's troops were gassing people they considered inferior or abnormal (in those days all of us in the trans community would probably have suffered, not just those who didn't 'pass'...)

For me the important thing is to recognise that you felt like this, and to then try to accept that this is really only about your fears, your discomfort and your prejudices.  Maybe the person you have seen is happy (or at least happier than they once were...), has good friends and/or family that love them and is carving out a better life for themselves than they might otherwise have had.

What most often upsets me when I meet people who do not fit the social norms (and this can be for so many different reasons, not just trans...) is the idea that they could be lonely, feel unloved, have financial difficulties and be the victim of discrimination.

I've been lucky in my life; I am a white european so I don't suffer racial discrimination, don't have a disability so I can access all the facilities I want to in my city and unless I tell people that I wasn't born a girl they never know.  Others don't always have so much luck and they may well need our support.

MVER XXX

I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

I never feel uncomfortable or anything why should I? If they don't pass to that degree then I'm such a contrast to them that no one would ever read me by assosiation, if that's the typical public image of trannies then i'm perfectly happy for everyone to see us that way because it makes it easier for me to just blend.

Quote from: Mawd on June 15, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

I never feel uncomfortable or anything why should I? If they don't pass to that degree then I'm such a contrast to them that no one would ever read me by assosiation, if that's the typical public image of trannies then i'm perfectly happy for everyone to see us that way because it makes it easier for me to just blend.

Besides feeling uncomfortable, I also have a feeling of superiority to these people, which also is not healthy, good point that these people are CDing in public, CDing is so foreign to me that I forget that even exists.

Quote from: Mawd on June 15, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

Can you tell a CD from an unpassable TS?

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 01:08:34 PM
Besides feeling uncomfortable, I also have a feeling of superiority to these people, which also is not healthy, good point that these people are CDing in public, CDing is so foreign to me that I forget that even exists.

Well, I'm not sure it's fair to consider anyone who doesn't pass a CDr (not that there's anything wrong with CDing anyway). There will always be TSs who can't pass very well, no matter what they do. Heck, despite the constant reassurances I get, I still fear I may never pass very well (in the end, only experience will cure that - or prove me right). But I have to transition anyway and just do my best.

I have to assume these unpassable women are doing the same?

~Kate~

I think that many unpassables are CD, so if they don't pass, hey, I didn't pass too well without hormones either so its no skin off my back. Its almost impossible to distinguish a CD from an unpassable TS, so I don't try. Even with CD's there are those that pass very well (usually young) and those that don't.

Though, you seldom see CD's outside some neighborhoods during the day. It is mostly at night that you can see them in certain areas.

What bothers me is unpassable TS's in all senses from presentation to voice to attitude taking the mantle of representing all TS's in the media. That used to happen all the time and for a long time it put me off transitioning as I had no positive role models. These days, there is at least a balance, where a more varied number of TS are public. Its like in the time when the only gay people knew where the flaming ones, while they represent a small minority of their pop.

Just curious on how you know that they are T.

I have met some pretty manly looking women, a few I had to look up at in order to look them in the eye. Deep voices, light facial hair that they would bleach or pluck out. Bushy eyebrows. Also knew for a fact that they were natal females.

I think sometimes others assume too much.

Quote from: Nero on June 15, 2007, 01:17:48 PM

Quote from: Mawd on June 15, 2007, 12:44:52 PM
I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

She makes a good point, I think you can make a good guess, in retrospect, I think the people I saw were CDs.  I mean one could not exist going around looking like that 24/7. OTOH they could be TGs on their first time out although a TG/TS would probably have more going on their first time out than these folks.

Early on, I used to joke that I couldn't pass my way out of a paper bag, on a good day. At a certain point in my process of discovery I decided that I don't need to pass as anything, people see what they want to see. Some might see a frumpy woman, others might see a man in a dress, I'd guess that some others might not notice or care at all. I can't control anyone's perception of me, all I can control  is the way in which I might wish to express my gender, and how I feel about whether or not I pass.

We have all been barraged by negative media perceptions of transpeople our entire lives. I believe that everyone of us carries a certain amount of internalized transphobia, it is our choice to recognize this, and if we choose, to try and overcome it. I also hope (and work) torwards a future day in which it is OK not have to "pass", when it will OK to openly and safely express ones gender, wherever on the continuum it might be.

zythyra

Quote from: Nero on June 15, 2007, 01:17:48 PM
Can you tell a CD from an unpassable TS?

Yes.

Quote from: Keira on June 15, 2007, 02:25:50 PM
What bothers me is unpassable TS's in all senses from presentation to voice to attitude taking the mantle of representing all TS's in the media. That used to happen all the time and for a long time it put me off transitioning as I had no positive role models.

Yes I can understand that Keira, it's so frustrating when an individual or minority claims to represent everybody else.  If people want to talk about their lives and their experiences to others that's fine by me, but they really should remember they're only experts on their own lives.

Sadly, it's an unfortunate fact that in the trans-community only certain types of people will tend to want to go public and this inevitably distorts the public's image of what it means to be trans.

MVER XXX

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman...

And why is she causing you to be uneasy, for you or her? Or for the fear others may use her to define you? I'm sorry that you feel uneasy in the presence of non-passing ts', but why is it a problem for you if you're getting on with your life? What if the situation were reversed, and you her and she you, would you expect such a reaction for another human being, and perhaps someone who you would expect something other than rejection? And even knowing it's not reversed, what do you think others think of you? Maybe in their eyes you're not passable (not having met you)? Are they just being nice for the same reasons you feel for the other ts? Imagine the pain in her heart when they know other ts' don't like her because of her decisions in life to be who she is?

Just my thoughts. When presented with such a situation about someone else, I remember the adage, "For there but the grace of God go I." Would the Dalami Lama reject her, or you for your view of her? It's normal to feel uncomfortable with others outside your view of people, and it takes more to step outside your own world to accept others as they are in the face of your own feelings. That's the hardest thing people can do, simple accept people without prejudice.

I am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

I am in early recovery and still trying to perfect the skill of not taking other people's inventory. That is one reason these feelings bother me. I am trying to live with the philosophy that I am no better or no worse than anyone else but it is easier said than done.

melissa, do you think that a gg would feel uncomfortable when she sees   a Very "Unpassable" Transwoman?

Quote from: Katia on June 15, 2007, 06:45:16 PM
melissa, do you think that a gg would feel uncomfortable when she sees   a Very "Unpassable" Transwoman?

Some would and some wouldn't depending on their point of view but not for the same reasons. Was there a point to your question?

Pre transition I used to "freak" when I saw an unpassable TS/TG/TV on the media or in the street .... how would it cloud my family, friends, and colleagues opinion of me when I came out ??? ??

Would I be seen as such an embarassing spectacle too ?

When I did transition I looked, presented, and acted so naturally and convincingly as a woman, that I felt I was representing myself, and myself only, not some "Gerry Springer" freak image of TG ....

Family, friends, colleagues laugh with me at the "unpresentables" seeking out media attention as all they see in me is "woman", I'm not "tarred" by any association ....

Think that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

Laura x

I think we need to step back and look at the point Melissa's trying to get across. Instead of getting down on her for feeling this way, we should help her figure out WHY she feels this way and how to overcome it. Obviously, she knows it's a bad thing to feel this way and wants to become a better person by ridding herself of the negative thoughts towards un-passable TSs (if that's indeed what the person being referred to was).

On that note, I commend you for making an effort to get past your judgments. Maybe next time you see someone and are fairly positive she/he's a TS and doesn't pass so well, go up and strike up a conversation. Don't bring up the fact that you noticed that they didn't pass too well, but just talk about everyday normal stuff. Once you leave the conversation, you will get a better understanding about how that person feels, what they're like, and have a more intimate friendly relationship to that person which might give you a boost of confidence in knowing that she is a good-hearted friendly person. Therefore, the next time you are presented with an un-passable TS you will recall your incident and associate that with it. I think that whenever people can associate a positive feeling during a bad or difficult situation it makes it easy to overcome and look at the reality of the situation instead of your personal beliefs.

This has actually helped me out a few times. When I felt unconfortable in a situation, I would do something spontaneous and good-hearted that would allow me a point in time to recall when in that situation again so I feel better next time and hopefully aren't presented with the same fears as before.

I hope I helped at all. Again, you are brave for even posting these feelings on the board. Good luck :)

Sarah

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 15, 2007, 07:34:31 PM
Pre transition I used to "freak" when I saw an unpassable TS/TG/TV on the media or in the street .... how would it cloud my family, friends, and colleagues opinion of me when I came out ??? ??

Would I be seen as such an embarassing spectacle too ?

When I did transition I looked, presented, and acted so naturally and convincingly as a woman, that I felt I was representing myself, and myself only, not some "Gerry Springer" freak image of TG ....

Family, friends, colleagues laugh with me at the "unpresentables" seeking out media attention as all they see in me is "woman", I'm not "tarred" by any association ....

Think that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

Laura x

I think I have a huge HONESTY issue. I don't hesitate to post my true feelings here and I see some here seem to bolster themselves up by bringing me down. I spend four-six hours a day in therapy, it's pretty easy for me to recognize this behavior.

QuoteI think I have a huge HONESTY issue. I don't hesitate to post my true feelings here and I see some here seem to bolster themselves up by bringing me down. I spend four-six hours a day in therapy, it's pretty easy for me to recognize this behavior.

Just because people might post an opposing opinion does not mean that they are trying to bring you down.

I think the lesson in life, but especially for people here at Susan's, is that we all need to stop caring about what other people think, say or feel about us. Why should any of us care if someone does not care for how you look, what you think, or what you say? What does it matter?  The answer is nothing. Life is too darn short to worry about what people think of you, if they like you, or whether they will acknowledge you.

I spent the better part of twenty years and a small fortune dealing with family and childhood trauma, and it all comes down to this. When you care about what other people think or feel about you, you give them power over you. When you wait for them to acknowledge you, you give them power over you. When you modify yourself or your behavior to make people like you, or to be accepted, than you give them power over you.

Self acceptance can only come within. There will always be someone willing to reject you, or looking to dis you, if you are willing to play their victim.

I already know all that, I am in recovery, remember? And I also know when someone is trying to bring me down to elevate themselves. It doesn't bother me in the least because it's their illness, not mine. But I feel the need to point out the behavior when I see it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 06:39:17 PM
I am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

I am in early recovery and still trying to perfect the skill of not taking other people's inventory. That is one reason these feelings bother me. I am trying to live with the philosophy that I am no better or no worse than anyone else but it is easier said than done.

In my opinion, if we recognise that we have built-in prejudices and instead of just maintaining them actually try to work against them, then we are making progress.

If you are trying to go beyond your gut feelings and are questioning why exactly you feel the way you do then I for one think that's worth congratulating.

MVER XXX

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

You feel uncomfortable because the 'unpassable' is society's idea of a transsexual, obviously, because they don't 'see' the passable ones. It's something all minorities have to deal with. Many blacks have told me they are embarrassed of Al Sharpton and others who seem to 'represent' their race. They let me know in no uncertain terms that 'he doesn't speak for me'. After the Virginia Tech tragedy, some Asians were afraid it would taint American society's view of them.
Since mainstream society's current view of a transsexual is the proverbial 'man in a dress', you become uncomfortable when confronted with someone who fits the stereotype. And yes, that reaction is normal.

Melissa, what is it about yourself that makes you feel that way? I'll be honest and say what I feel. Its my problem when I see a non passable TS and cringe and I am a bad person for feeling that way.

It is selfish to say, but I feel that every person a non passable TS encounters will burn an image in those peoples mind that TS are men in women's clothes and they will think all TS are like her. I am probably wrong about that and many good people just go on about their lives and do not care. That non passable TS is probably ok with who they are. I am the one with the problem not them. So what is it in me that has an issue? Am I so insecure in who I am that I would let knowing or being seen with a non passable TS make me cringe? Is it that I am so selfish that I am worried about them being in the same classification or having the same label as me is going to hurt my chances in society? Probably. But then again, the issue is with me, not them.

Quote from: Sarah B on June 15, 2007, 07:58:10 PM
I think we need to step back and look at the point Melissa's trying to get across. Instead of getting down on her for feeling this way, we should help her figure out WHY she feels this way and how to overcome it.

I agree, and think she's doing a good thing thinking through her thoughts and feelings. Her feelings are as many would say, perfectly normal. Even my therapist and physician have problems working with unpassable ts' because from their experience they know this transwomen will have problems, socially, publically and personally. They do their best to try and make the transwoman understand and cope. And in the end it's simply up to each of us individually to get through our life as best we can with what we've been dealt. Sometimes the best thing is simply accept it as it is without judgement, but maybe a smile for the diversity of people, and the courage some have to be different in the face of reality.

--Susan--

I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction. Completing transition, working on my recovery and getting ready for SRS are huge tasks to take on. I just need to keep working on it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 16, 2007, 09:59:03 AM
I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction. Completing transition, working on my recovery and getting ready for SRS are huge tasks to take on. I just need to keep working on it.

you and me both. I'm still drinking though. :( I applaud you. it's very hard not only being TS, but to struggle with addiction as well. Good luck to you, Melissa. :)

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 16, 2007, 09:59:03 AM
I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction.

I really respect your efforts Melissa ... luckily I've never touched the "hard" drugs, and thought transition would alleviate the root causes of my big alcohol problem.
 
Of course it didn't, ("first the man he takes the drink, and then the drink he takes the man" sic), and I still use alcohol as the prop to fend off my insecurities, confidence issues, stresses, depressions, and loneliness; in rough periods at levels that would put guys twice my size under the table.  I just don't dare tell anyone the truth about the level of my consumption which borders on dependancy. I'm afraid of seeking help, and nobody suspects as I can just about manage a good career, have an OK social life, and seem sober to the outside world.
______________________________________________________________________________

When I said that

QuoteThink that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

I was generalizing and not excluding myself. 

Sometimes I pop into my local TV/TS group as they "live" just a mile from my front door and I want to offer my support. 

Having lost the nice venue they had they're now stuck with a bleak upstairs room in the local "International Soliarity Centre" which has a nice bar with global food, organic beer and wine, and often good music downstairs.  As a predominantly TV group of only about eight that evening we decided to "brave it" to find a table in the bar ...

... I who would happily go into the seediest of city bars on my own found I had huge problems being seen in public sitting an drinking with a group of soo obvious "men in frocks", even in a really liberal, right on, politically correct venue ... I almost chickened out ... WHY ????

I've supported friends in their transition, while they were still in "guy mode", with the constant thought "would I want to be seen in public with her once she goes full time ?".

Its all about insecurity, and fear of being ridiculed "by association", especially as I've survived transition without once being "sir'd", without anyone being anything other than really really friendly to me, or a malicious or denigratory comment being uttered.  If such an incident happened now it would really shake me up.

This spring myself, my TS best friend, and her husband were drinking with maybe 60 others outside a Soho bordering pub, Soho being the "gay village" of London.  What passes by but three very obvious TVs "dressed" for an evening out ... everybody turns their heads and looks in amusement ... but nobody sees the two TS women chatting and drinking in their midst !  What does that say ?

Laura x

QuoteI am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

Melissa,

I think that by saying this you're already further along in the process of figuring it out. Before we can solve a problem, we need to recognize our issues first, and as we all know, that first step is hard. There have been a number of threads on the message board this week that have gotten me thinking a lot about internalized transphobia, in what ways I might have internalized it, and how it ultimately keeps me from fully being myself. It's good if discussions such as these can help us discover more about ourselves and grow.

zythyra

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 16, 2007, 06:02:47 PMsnip

I think letting go is the first and most important step, a while back while for various reasons I was in a ->-bleeped-<- bar dressed extremely androgynously, like, no bra , t-shirt and jeans, no makeup and with kinda messy hair.

In that time there I had a couple of people comming up to me asking if i were FTM/MTF/boy/girl, at the time I was rather drunk and had other things on my mind, one guy came up to me and told me I he didn't know what I was but he thought i had a male face (which confused the ->-bleeped-<- out of me I couldn't facially pass for male without a fake beard) so I was like "what!?!?, I'm a girl" in utter shock and horror, he replied "So why do you want to be a guy?" again I replied "I don't, I'm just here with a friend", annother kept pestering me about what was in my knickers so a turned to him spread my legs and raised an eyebrow he then said "that's a shame, I'm attracted to you but I like cock and balls".

It could be because i have such confidence in the fact that i'm just a girl that i'm able to forget I'm TS even when people question my gender, it's like i was shocked that they would ask that.

hypothetical: if for whatever reason I decided to socialise with a group of TV's then I don't think it would effect how well I pass, even though i'm like 6'1, I'd be such a contrast to them, if anyone questioned my gender I'd first reply in shock and a little outrage that someone would insinuate that, it would be a "wtf you thought i was a ->-bleeped-<-!?" moment.

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely, you wouldn't do that, what would be the point.
Its just because your in a ->-bleeped-<- bar that people will even ask you such a question
cause I know you pass :-).

Last week, I went past a couple of young guys making flirting comments at me as I approached my corner store, one even held the door for me, but when I went past him, they saw how tall and heard a hush, when I was inside, I heard they erupt in a loud chatter. As I exited, they made not nice comments, which is very strange since seconds earlier they thought I was way hot!!! If it was one guy, I would have faced him down and told him, hey, you've never seen a tall women before? But, they were 6 guys of 16, there was no point, so I just ignored them.

The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

Quote from: Mawd on June 17, 2007, 02:27:08 AM

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 16, 2007, 06:02:47 PMsnip

I think letting go is the first and most important step, a while back while for various reasons I was in a ->-bleeped-<- bar dressed extremely androgynously, like, no bra , t-shirt and jeans, no makeup and with kinda messy hair.

In that time there I had a couple of people comming up to me asking if i were FTM/MTF/boy/girl, at the time I was rather drunk and had other things on my mind, one guy came up to me and told me I he didn't know what I was but he thought i had a male face...

Why do you care about what drunks think about you in a "->-bleeped-<-" bar. I went to

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely,

No one passes absolutely. A few come close.

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM


The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny. I am always thrilled when people comment how tall I am 6 foot because it means even though they notice my height I am passing muster. I will say something like, I am German, all the women in my family are over six feet to seal the deal.

They didn't have time to examine me, since I entered the store a fraction of a second after I went past them. Its truly the height thing and its not for all people. For most people, they don't believe my ID is me and take crowded public transport (which I consider the ultimate passing tesT) where people are in my face for a long time with no problem, so I've got no problem with passing in a general sense. I get "read" usually from far away (60 feet and more) or from the back, not from my front.  These people would probably "read" tall GG's also if they made their way around here!! So, I don't worry about it too much.

In some people's head its impossible for a women to be that tall no matter what else they see. Young boys in groups are at the macho stage so proving their masculinity is so important to them... Tall women are very rare aound here, I've only seen it a few time myself.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

Somehow I find this difficult to understand. I routinely see tall women and no one seems to assume or comment about them. I've met (as employees in stores) many tall and big women, some even quite or near masculine looking, and no one seems to be making fusses. My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective as I routinely have to go to the Capitol Hill area in Seattle where many transpeople live (because of two local universities/colleges and gay community). Some are obvious, but no one pays attention to them. And you can easily make the argument in many women sports, tall and fit women rule, and I don't see anyone commenting about them.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
Why do you care about what drunks think about you in a "->-bleeped-<-" bar. I went to

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely,

No one passes absolutely. A few come close.

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM


The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny. I am always thrilled when people comment how tall I am 6 foot because it means even though they notice my height I am passing muster. I will say something like, I am German, all the women in my family are over six feet to seal the deal.

Why do I care what peeps think in a ->-bleeped-<- bar? I don't like being out to people, at all under any circumstance. the only reason to want to be out at a ->-bleeped-<- bar is if you are looking to pick up a ->-bleeped-<-.

I pass absolutely, there is nothing that could or would out me as transsexual short of a genital inspection, I can stand up to any scrutiny.

Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them. People here are very trans-aware, I have dozens of discussions with other transwomen about this. Women over 6' are something like 1% of the female population.

QuoteI pass absolutely, there is nothing that could or would out me as transsexual short of a genital inspection, I can stand up to any scrutiny.

Sorry to differ but no one passes absolutely. Nice to have confidence though.

Quote from: SusanK on June 17, 2007, 03:06:38 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective...

I agree.  I am constantly sizing up other women wondering and questioning their 23rd chromosome at any hint of gender ambiguity.  Sometimes I think everyone is trans!!!  I live in Mpls/St Paul and I would consider this a trans-aware place due to the health care that's available for us.  There are lots of supportive people in this area; I've been fortunate.

Most people in large cities could care less about strangers.  No one usually blinks when I'm out and about as Suzie.


To Melissa regarding your original thread:  didn't I read you went to Ousterhout?  Why are you dissing the street people CDs after you went to the face God?  It's kind of like someone who steps out of a new Mercedes looking down on people driving a beat-up motorcycle.  It just screams pretentiousness sweetie, time to get back to your roots (No I don't mean start drinking again!).  I'm constantly comparing myself to other trans women, I totally understand, but finding compassion for other TS is not something you will find on a website, it comes from within us.

Women 6 foot and taller are much less than 1% here, I'm guessing its 0.2%.  So, if somone assumes someone 6 foot and over is a TS, there's a good enough chance that they are right, regardless of how feminine the rest of your body looks.

Of course, if your sure enough of yourself, height doesn't matter, because just a few people really focus on it; they just live their lives  and have other thing to worry about than little you.

I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.  Its not something I can change and I think my foot or hand size is more of an issue.  Its not going to stop me from transitioning, although I could focus on all of the negative and worry daily about my flaws. 

I have felt uncomfortable not with unpassable TS, but with people who put no real effort in their presentation.

Charlotte

Quote from: charlotteNH on June 17, 2007, 07:39:39 PM
I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.

Me too... at least now anyway. Way back when starting this, I was obsessed with worry over being 6'2", but it doesn't seem to matter much. Being out *totally* female is still new to me, and I just spent the day walking around shopping and dining with my wife (5'4") and her friend's mother ("5'0"), and heard nothing but "How are you ladies?" and "Have a nice night girls!" I saw no odd looks, no double-takes, no stares. I worried that the *contrast* would out me, but as best I could tell, no one noticed. Now sure, maybe people figured me out and I didn't notice, but in any case, it's not like crowds of curious gawkers were accumulating behind me. I had a normal, ordinary day out. What more could I want? ;)

~Kate~

There are many reasons for these kinds of feelings. 

Some of it may be contempt for those who don't seem to put in the same effort we do to be presentable.

Some of it may be our own insecurities that we may be outed by simple association with someone like this.

Some of it may be our own remaining bigoted feelings. Yes, we've done our best to flush them away. But it's hard to clean that house.

Most of us have these feelings.  I believe it to be normal.  I also know it is a healthy thing to recognize and question them.  Hopefully, we can find constructive means to deal with them.  This is what makes us a better and more compassionate person.

This is an excellent thread. Thanks Melissa for posing these questions.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on June 17, 2007, 09:29:18 PM
This is an excellent thread. Thanks Melissa for posing these questions.

I agree. You knew you'd get flak for it, but you voiced the feelings of many transpeople. It's always healthy to confront these kinds of issues. :)

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PMSorry to differ but no one passes absolutely. Nice to have confidence though.

You don't know those who pass absolutely because they do not out themselves to you in real life, you would not read me for a few reasons I don't care to get into.

I can read transwomen without making visual contact. I feel the presence of transwomen when one enters my sphere. Once I feel the presence, if I make visual contact, I will see something that confirms my reading. If there isn't anything in the physical appearance, there is usually a certain demeanor I pick up.

Hey, you might be one in a million, who knows but even people like Calpernia Addams have admitted they get clocked. I would love to know what these factors are that make you unique to all other transsexuals on the planet. We could probably learn from this, maybe you could post it in Just Us or pm your secrets to me.

Also just philosophically speaking, there are no absolutes, everything is relative.

Quote from: Suzie on June 17, 2007, 07:16:20 PM

Quote from: SusanK on June 17, 2007, 03:06:38 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective...

I agree.  I am constantly sizing up other women wondering and questioning their 23rd chromosome at any hint of gender ambiguity.  Sometimes I think everyone is trans!!!  I live in Mpls/St Paul and I would consider this a trans-aware place due to the health care that's available for us.  There are lots of supportive people in this area; I've been fortunate.

Most people in large cities could care less about strangers.  No one usually blinks when I'm out and about as Suzie.


To Melissa regarding your original thread:  didn't I read you went to Ousterhout?  Why are you dissing the street people CDs after you went to the face God?  It's kind of like someone who steps out of a new Mercedes looking down on people driving a beat-up motorcycle.  It just screams pretentiousness sweetie, time to get back to your roots (No I don't mean start drinking again!).  I'm constantly comparing myself to other trans women, I totally understand, but finding compassion for other TS is not something you will find on a website, it comes from within us.

It also comes from discussing one's insecurities. I am not dissing anyone, I can't help that I felt this way.  I think I pointed out that also felt empathy (compassion) for them but that didn't take away the feeling of discomfort. And the feeling of superiority, which might be the root of my discomfort as my recovery philosophy teaches me not to feel less than or better than anyone. I do not think I would even be having this conversation if I wasn't in recovery. Someone brought up in an AA meeting that we alcoholic/addicts actually have an advantage over "normies" as we are given a guidebook to living, whereas as most people just muddle on the best they can on their own. Discussing stuff like this is essential and I can't discuss it in my regular groups, actually I guess I could, I just haven't, besides I think other transpeople can give me a better perspective.

Quote from: Kate on June 17, 2007, 08:25:28 PM

Quote from: charlotteNH on June 17, 2007, 07:39:39 PM
I myself am 6ft 1, but in all honesty its the last thing I am worried about.

Me too... at least now anyway. Way back when starting this, I was obsessed with worry over being 6'2", but it doesn't seem to matter much. Being out *totally* female is still new to me, and I just spent the day walking around shopping and dining with my wife (5'4") and her friend's mother ("5'0"), and heard nothing but "How are you ladies?" and "Have a nice night girls!" I saw no odd looks, no double-takes, no stares. I worried that the *contrast* would out me, but as best I could tell, no one noticed. Now sure, maybe people figured me out and I didn't notice, but in any case, it's not like crowds of curious gawkers were accumulating behind me. I had a normal, ordinary day out. What more could I want? ;)

~Kate~

If you are early in transition and not getting negative feedback or attention, you are doing fine.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 08:33:36 AM
I can read transwomen without making visual contact. I feel the presence of transwomen when one enters my sphere. Once I feel the presence, if I make visual contact, I will see something that confirms my reading. If there isn't anything in the physical appearance, there is usually a certain demeanor I pick up.

Oh I know, passing to the degree I talk of is entirely to do with mentality, I can quite easily forget I'm TS and just move on, there's also a degree of female socialisation at a young enough age you need to be able to really get it, my sister included me in her world, I went to sleepovers with her and I was included with her friends when they came over ect, there's also a degree of being outed because you notice things, that's happened to me before when I've clocked someone else and they've clocked me clocking them and thus probably clocked me.

I frankly don't give a toss if there are other transwomen about so i don't give people scrutiny that way, occasionally I read people just like any person would because they don't pass too great but i don't react in that knowing way.

All this while i explain it in a bit of a long winded way is not something I think about, I have better things to do than stress about this and work out a plan of action.

I think i'd first think something's up with capernia due to her shoulders and that would be confirmed by the way i can see through her facial bone structure, it's fairly easy to see that she's had FFS. There's also a degree of clash one can tell from level of masculinisation at the bone level clashing with feminisation of skin/fat, because I started HRT while puberty was only just starting for me my bone structure never became that masculine and these days it all matches up as well and there is no real clash, tbh I think if i had FFS It would make me less passable, at the moment I don't have any clash in my appearance everything is congruent and if i feminised a few facial features it would look a bit wrong.

Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)

Anyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.
I have worked with two "deep stealth" transsexuals who were so passable no one but me had a clue (as far as I knew) but I knew and it was rather odd as they knew that I knew. We never talked about directly but in conversations we would kinda acknowledge it in a round about way.

So today, whereas I usually just go to my groups dressed casually and with minimal make-up, I felt kinda sexy and was even having these fantasies about men, of all things, so I dressed cute, did my hair and makeup nice, lo ad behold, men are hitting on me right and left, I am waiting on Market for the trolley and who walks but two poorly passable transwomen, one of which was the motivation of this thread, I didn't make eye contact, then this guy walks past them and up to me and asks if I wanted to have a good time cuz he has a twelve! Wow, I said thanks but no thanks, anyway I think I must be giving out the "I want a man today signal!" As I said before, I have a very strong sexual aura and I guess the guys were picking up on my desires Getting back to the women, I didn't feel uncomfortable, I did feel good that I was so much higher up on the food chain so I guess that's not good, but on a human level, I don't feel like I am better than them in any way.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)

My father is much like you in experience and ge just reads people MTF or FTM allike so I know where you're coming from, the person who picked up on that 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% would end up thinking they read half the women on the planet as trans, and i can't resist responding to the isecurity jab, this is purely for the sake of arguement, I know I pass 100% and that's a key part in my passing because it's so absolute that I don't expect there to be any question as to my gender.


http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9190/smileoo4.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9190/smileoo4.jpg)

I don't look that amazing but there are enough natal girls who look more trans than i do for how i look to never cause enough suspicion to have someone read me.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans.

In Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.

Quote from: Nikki on June 15, 2007, 11:45:24 AM
Would an "unpassable transwoman" be a woman that tries to pass as trans but anyone can tell she's a GG? I know a couple of very "passable transwomen" I don't know if they trans or GG but they can sure "pass" for trans. You have to "pass" when you are trying to represent yourself as something you aren't. I have to "pass" every time I go out as a guy, but I don't have to pass as a woman neither do the women you are judging. Maybe if you put less focus on being pretty and FFS and BA and whatever else to make GG's jealous, instead of seeing "unpassable transwomen" you would just see "women".

its a lovely sentiment, but society works like that, beauty is a measure of genetic breading suitability in social history. now, i dont know, but  your cant stop focusing on pretty. tbh for us, there is two scales,
the passing scale, which covers looking male or  female, then the attractiveness scale, both are, in my mind, paralel, not serise, but i think the op means that by unpassable trans women, sshe means ts women who dont pass as female, who look like men trying to pass, people aim in transition isnt to be trans women, if it is, your doing this for the wrong reasons, and probably shouldnt transition, To be honest, i agrree, when around unpassable trans folk, i feel embaraced that people will look at them, and associate me with them, even though i pass quite well, its read by association, that socialising, or being near another ts person, will get me read. Call me vain, but im like that. I understand, but in the same vain, i cant, i pass, quite easily, and as such, can sympathise with unpassable ts women, or men, we forget, but i cant empathise, and i dont really want to associate, as my problems, and thiers are differnet. the fear i guess, is a still beliving we are doing something wrong, and passing is us hiding it, and being around an obviiously trans person, means were socially doing something weird. meh, life sucks, deal with what you get.

Quote from: Mawd on June 18, 2007, 02:27:11 PM
My father is much like you in experience and ge just reads people MTF or FTM allike so I know where you're coming from, the person who picked up on that 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% would end up thinking they read half the women on the planet as trans, and i can't resist responding to the isecurity jab, this is purely for the sake of arguement, I know I pass 100% and that's a key part in my passing because it's so absolute that I don't expect there to be any question as to my gender.

That exactly how it is for me too.  I don't expect people to question me and they don't.  Not only that, but I have had conversations about transsexualism with people without them knowing I was TS, I have gone to esprit (an event specifically for TG) and passed--they thought I was an SO until I told them I wasn't, I live my life in stealth unless I choose not to.  I had a girlfriend who had no idea I was TS until she got a bit to close to my genitalia.  I was never raised as male, my bone structure and everything is that of a female (still looking for the answer to that one), and even my voice is female, so I'm essentially a GG with the wrong genitals at this point.  My height isn't even abnormal for a female.  If somebody's TS-radar is tuned SO sensitive as to scrutinize me as TS, they would pick up SO many GGs on the planet as well.

Also, regarding the FFS making you look less passable, I think it depends on what you did.  If you just did something any GG could/would do, then that may not exempt you from passing perfectly.  However, my face seems fine.

---

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PMAnyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.

Well, if that's it, then you need to realize that you know more than the average person and just because you can read them, does not mean everyone else in the vicinity has the same ability.  So now you can relax knowing that you won't necessarily be read by association.

Hey Melissa90299, if you don't mind my asking, when did you have your stroke?

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them.

Personally, while I've read personal and news stories about discrimination toward transpeople, I personally haven't seen people make a fuss about a non-passable transwoman, and I've seen enough where I live. And personally I'm not bothered, it's their life and they deserve the respect to be treated as a human being. It's intolerance, overt or covert, that hurts, no matter who, when and where. And it doesn't matter if they're trans, transient, disabled, retarded, whatever, it's about respecting individual dignity.

Please understand it's not meant to be harsh, I just don't understand why you make it a statement you can "tell" a transwoman. I don't understand why it even matters. But I do have some questions. If you met them, did you smile or say "Hello" at them. Or did you walk away not wanting to know or be seen with them? What do you think they thought of you? What do you think other (non-trans) people think of you when they see or met you? Or do you care?

QuoteIn Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.

LOL.  Very nice indeed.

I thought that I was tall until I moved to Colorado, and discovered I was a midget.
Tons of women there that are way over six feet and thin too -- like a gaggle of models.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 18, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
Well, anyway, since I don't even have a photo of you, I in no way can make a judgment about you nor do I really care to, but it's beyond that anyway as there are extra-sensory clues that I pick up. I don't go around trying to scrutinize women either. However, I am an actor (a fairly accomplished one) and my training teaches me to observe the way people move. As well when I feel the presence of another trans, mere curiosity would motivate me to look at the person. Based on what you have said, you sound like you may be 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% passable but there is always the little clue that someone somewhere can pick up. Not that it matters.  I am not trying to play shrink here but it sure sounds like you have some insecurities about passing by having the need to point out why you pass better than someone like Calpernia. BTW no one but other transwomen ever reads FFS (generally speaking)

Anyway, there are extra sensory clues going on here, maybe my powers are unusual. In fact, I know they are, since I am prescient. I think everyone possesses the same ability but few have developed it.
I have worked with two "deep stealth" transsexuals who were so passable no one but me had a clue (as far as I knew) but I knew and it was rather odd as they knew that I knew. We never talked about directly but in conversations we would kinda acknowledge it in a round about way.

So today, whereas I usually just go to my groups dressed casually and with minimal make-up, I felt kinda sexy and was even having these fantasies about men, of all things, so I dressed cute, did my hair and makeup nice, lo ad behold, men are hitting on me right and left, I am waiting on Market for the trolley and who walks but two poorly passable transwomen, one of which was the motivation of this thread, I didn't make eye contact, then this guy walks past them and up to me and asks if I wanted to have a good time cuz he has a twelve! Wow, I said thanks but no thanks, anyway I think I must be giving out the "I want a man today signal!" As I said before, I have a very strong sexual aura and I guess the guys were picking up on my desires Getting back to the women, I didn't feel uncomfortable, I did feel good that I was so much higher up on the food chain so I guess that's not good, but on a human level, I don't feel like I am better than them in any way.

Melissa, do you understand how derogatory, insulting, smug an superior this post makes you appear ?

Maybe a clarification / explanation would be helpful and in order to placate people .... and some (pre-stroke  ;) ?) pics to show us why you're "so perfect" and such a man / woman magnet that you can denegrate not only the lovely Maud, but by association the likes of most of us here ...

Maybe you don't realise but modesty is a virtue ....

Laura x

My own opinion is that certain people, like me,will be assumed as TS by the same people who would think certain GG's are TS. So, I'm not sure you can call this being read at all.

Outside my own neighborhood were they know me from before, I've had no problems at all, besides guys checking me out.

Yesterday, for fun, we did an experiment, me and 2 friends walked 20 feet and 50 feet behind me while we walked for quarter of a mile on St-Catherine (A very busy commercial street with tons of very varied foot traffic from children to grandparents, from the stars to the dowdy, people of all cultural backgrounds.

They had their eyes/ears peeled for the tells of being read. A typical one I had from couples in the early months of my transition before HRT kicked in and I had a slight FFS. Some men's eyes became larger, then after I passed by, the guy said something to their girlfriend and then the girlfriend turned around. Since I transitioned when I was probably 90-95% passable, I've seen plenty of the "read" signs.

What my friends saw from women, teens, elders, childfren, no reaction, from men alone, 3-4  turned around to check me out (very characteristic head turn). In couples, women were looking a their guys while they passed by me? I often see that look from a woman in a couple when a possible competitor is around. That's all, 1000-2000 people went passed me and not one twitch NOW.  It was not always the case, I remember how it was before.

In my case, if I look at the stat chart, I know that its my height that stands the greatest chance of "outing" me since there is no way to hide it, and in Montreal there is very few women as tall as me. So if in a bigot's head every tall women is a TS, they'll obviously I will be lumped into that group, one of those few tall women will also be lumped in there. That's the kind of "read" that any TS women in a society where women are much smaller cannot avoid regardless of how they look if someone is anal enough to just looks at heights in a social interaction (disregarding everything else); most sane people don't carry a stat chart in their heads and don't care for that kind of details even on a subconscious level.

In general, those that can "read" TS, probably shoot so broadly as being a bigot to 5% of the female population that's outside their own norm in any way. They're the same ones bashing men that are not "man enough"or insulting overweight or ugly women.

The last 1% of passability rarely matters I think in life. If your, like Mawd and most TS women here, and are sure of who you are, why let the dumbass who would clock a GG bother you?

An unpassable TS is not that it takes most of the pop an antropometry chart to notice, they are quite obvious to all. If we did the same experiement as I did, I'd bet that they'd be reactions from 1/5 to 1/4 of the people that person passed would react. I know the reactions from this minority can be not very pleasant (from my early not so passable days); the most unpleasant ones are when people have to say in a loud voice that your a man so everyone around will hear.

I have a mixture and compassion or disconfort when I see such a woman. But, as I've felt better about myself, I've felt less and less uncomfortable of being seen in public in their company. I think that the disconfort is a reflection of our own insecurities up to a point. If you feel sure of who you are, how you look, it seems to matter less what others think and more what you think.

LOL Laura , you are tripping, girl. What is possibly racist about crack whores? Most crack whores I know are white. If the crap I post upsets you, use the scroll button, though sometimes some stuff is tongue in cheek, I post the truth the way I see it. I don't feel superior to anyone, in fact, as I have posted time and time agian, I have problems with self-esteem. All my girlfriends think I am crazy when I tell them how I always worry about people liking me. The thing is 100 people can tell me how beautiful, charming, funny, articulate, courageous, sexy, attractive, intelligent, and talented I am, then one person says something negative or snubs me and I focus on the negative and obsess on that.
And all I said to Mawd was that no one passes absolutely, maybe the level of passing is so high that only someone with strong ESP like myself will pick up the vibe but that still means less than absolute. I don't think anything is absolute, well maybe death and taxes...

Notice that I very rarely comment about how well I pass, if I use the same criteria as everyone else, I suppose I pass 100% too except the only way I could ever know that it to query the hundreds of people who see me on a weekly basis. One thing I am sure of, I am sexier and more attractive than at least 90% of women my age. And I know that absolutely! :)

Quote from: Lori on June 18, 2007, 06:32:01 PM
Hey Melissa90299, if you don't mind my asking, when did you have your stroke?

I will pray for you.

The point I'm making is that by that logic no natal girl passes 100% for female, it's very possible for TS's to pass to a better degree than natal girls, I certainly know plenty who have had their gender questioned more than I have, I know the vibe which you speak of I just don't think it's an absolute constant and if you don't have that vibe you have plausable universal deniability, anyone who would think i'm TS would also think allot of natal girls are too, simple as, this is not an impossible absolute, no one is ever 100% under any situation taken for their gender if they're not trans however they just correct people when someone makes the mistake the same way I do.

This is a difficult subject to reconcile with ones own feelings and as such I have stayed out of the debate for now.

Firstly I admire anyone who has the courage and drive to transition, no matter how succesful they are (or not) in fully integrating into society. It is a difficult thing all of us face the moment we make that decision and is influenced by many factors such as age, income, family, location.

The second point is that yes, I do feel uncomfortable when I see someone (or I am with someone) that obviously has issues with passing, because it draws attention to myself, which I wish to avoid. The last time this happened was a fair while ago now and I was asked by 2 friends (who had issues with their voice) to go and ask on their behalf in some stores, that made me feel uncomfortable.

But I guess we all go through that stage, looking maleish, becomming more androgynous, then looking more feminine as HRT kicks in etc. I know in my own life it took a good 6 months into transition before I stopped getting called sir (It is also a confidence thing as well, removal of facial hair, speach etc).

Feminizing Facial Surgery was an important step for me and I did this before I started my RLE and after a year on hormones. BUT the effects take time, my Jaw line didn't look like I hoped until nearly 12 months after surgery and until further fat redistribution and muscle wastage took place, but my pass rate improved considerably after FFS. However FFS did nothing for my wide shoulders andlarger hands and feet. Some people will never be able to afford FFS (or wish to have it) and this will obviously have an effect in passing.

Not all GG's pass fully as women either, I have a friend who is Lesbian, very butch, has thinning hair, cropped short and wears no make up, she looks at times very masculine and is also tall at 5ft 11 (for a woman)

The one thing that has worried me recently was on my last trip to Thailand, where I met people who where having SRS, but made no effort to look, sound feminine. One even told me that they where not having facial hair removal, another wasn't bothering with speach therapy (and had a deep voice). Their Choice, but in my book, just throwing on a pair of hipster jeans, T-Shirt, tying your hair back in a pony tail and having a neo-vagina, does not a woman make. They where unpassable. Of more concern was that they considered this to be societies problem and not theirs, they should be accepted and not the other way around.

So yes it does make me uncomfortable being around people who either dont pass for the circumstances I have described above OR dont make any attempt to pass.

The later does us all no favours.

Buffy

PS Given Melissa 90299's ability to spot a TS a million miles away, remind me never to go to America, less alone SF

Quote from: SusanK on June 18, 2007, 07:53:26 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them.

Personally, while I've read personal and news stories about discrimination toward transpeople, I personally haven't seen people make a fuss about a non-passable transwoman, and I've seen enough where I live. And personally I'm not bothered, it's their life and they deserve the respect to be treated as a human being. It's intolerance, overt or covert, that hurts, no matter who, when and where. And it doesn't matter if they're trans, transient, disabled, retarded, whatever, it's about respecting individual dignity.

Please understand it's not meant to be harsh, I just don't understand why you make it a statement you can "tell" a transwoman.

Because I can, I guess it's just another one of my unusual perceptive abilities.

QuoteI don't understand why it even matters. But I do have some questions. If you met them, did you smile or say "Hello" at them. Or did you walk away not wanting to know or be seen with them? What do you think they thought of you? What do you think other (non-trans) people think of you when they see or met you? Or do you care?

If it didn't matter why are you responding? As far as poorly passing transwomen,once I see them, I divert my eyes. There is an interesting dichotomy when two highly passable transwomen (one being me) pass each other going opposite directions, in almost all cases, we both divert our eyes to avoid acknowledging that one clocked the other.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 02:54:50 AM
Because I can, I guess it's just another one of my unusual perceptive abilities.

If it didn't matter why are you responding? As far as poorly passing transwomen,once I see them, I divert my eyes. There is an interesting dichotomy when two highly passable transwomen (one being me) pass each other going opposite directions, in almost all cases, we both divert our eyes to avoid acknowledging that one clocked the other.

To the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

To the second, you initiated the post by stepping to the stage and announcing your feelings and thoughts on the matter and then asked for responses. If you can clock other ts, then don't you think other ts' easily clock you along with many other people who simply don't care about your status?

Why are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

I have to say that you have touched on one of the sensitive issuess between ts' and cd's, and the possibility that many ts' are uncomfortable with nonpassable transwomen whether they're cd or ts. But it's really a individual issue with each of us as we have to learn tolerance and acceptance of the diversity of the community. We seem to be ok at events because it's out of the public eye, but in public, the rules seems to change. It's our choice, but there always is someone better than us, so making judgements of people is relative to the person.

It's just something each of us have to resolve and practice. Best wishes to you.

--Susan--

Quote from: Thundra on June 18, 2007, 08:28:19 PM

QuoteIn Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.

LOL.  Very nice indeed.

I thought that I was tall until I moved to Colorado, and discovered I was a midget.
Tons of women there that are way over six feet and thin too -- like a gaggle of models.

Here was a scary exercise from my General Psych class last spring:  The prof called all the girls to the front of the room, then randomly divided us into two groups, and then lined us up by height and compared the two groups.  Thank god in my group I was only third tallest!

Quote from: Buffy on June 19, 2007, 02:47:40 AM
This is a difficult subject to reconcile with ones own feelings and as such I have stayed out of the debate for now.

You are a wise woman.

Quote from: Buffy on June 19, 2007, 02:47:40 AM
PS Given Melissa 90299's ability to spot a TS a million miles away, remind me never to go to America, less alone SF

What good would that do, if she can spot you a million miles away?  You've already been spotted.

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
My issue isn't so much someone else's passability as much perceiving that person to be male. If someone looks good but is vibing/talking/attitudinizing male to me (which could include gay male/crossdresser/or very simply not someone who I've ever encountered in the world of women) I'll be uncomfortable with that person's female identity. On the other hand, I've met people who were very early in transition, or not passable whose appearance didn't seem outwardly female to me, but how we interacted, their attitudes toward the world, and way of expressing themself did vibe female... and I thought, yes, they are definitely going in the right direction.

That is so true. There are some early transition women that don't pass yet, but their aura just screams female to me and others whose femaleness isn't so obvious.

Quote from: Keira on June 19, 2007, 02:16:50 AM
Yesterday, for fun, we did an experiment, me and 2 friends walked 20 feet and 50 feet behind me while we walked for quarter of a mile on St-Catherine (A very busy commercial street with tons of very varied foot traffic from children to grandparents, from the stars to the dowdy, people of all cultural backgrounds.

I remember Rue Ste-Catherine from when I stayed in Montreal a few years back.  I stayed in the Sheraton off of Boulevard Ren

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
get away from "can all trans women be clocked?,"

The obvious answer is "no, not unless someone has supernatural powers of 'tran-dar.' (That's similar to the supernatural powers of 'gay-dar.'

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
Why is it that many transwomen are so upset when they view someone as unpassable if they themselves are relatively or absolutely passable? What does someone else and their journey really have to do with me unless I choose to offer them help or friendship? Does that other person really reflect on me? I can't really control what the media chooses to show about transwomen. Nor can I really change people's attitudes other than by their direct connection to me as a person and, hopefully, as a woman.

I think there are a number of issues here. 

On the one hand, we are carelessly mixing multiple groups of people.  I don't think that people who make a genuine effort to pass and fail belong in the same category as people who make no effort to pass.  Also are we talking about those who make a carecature of woman by their appearance?  (You've seen the type: plastic miniskirt over fishnet stockings and hairy legs.)  I'm not saying any of these groups is bad, but they really are separate groups.

Another question is how much we have internalized other people's attitudes and stereotypes of trans people.  And it is not just straight people who have influenced our thinking.  Remember the decades when the gay movement wanted to distance themselves from trans people because they didn't want to be identified with "those people" by the straight community.  It's the origin of the image of the "manly gay."  The extent to which we internalize those attitudes affects our views on "passing privilage."  Passing privilage allows an elite to opt out and pretend to be straight or gay or lesbian, but not one of those transvestites.  Part of getting past feeling this way is realizing that the idea of passing privilage comes from the outside, from the straight world, and we don't have to buy into it.

A related issue is the TS/CD dicotomy.  Probably some of this comes from the struggle TSs have in negotiating their identity as women or men, being torn down by people who enter their world and say, "Oh, wow! You're a crossdresser, aren't you?"  So we get to the point where if an unpassable person comes around, we're afraid of catching CD cooties.  And this is really our own lack of self-confidence.  So the outside world conspires with what we have internalized to give us a sense of shame for things that really don't reflect on us. 

After all, what is appearance?  It's just the outside.  And our struggles are no different than every gawky, pimply teenager goes through.  For us it's just different features.

Im with buffy.
There are some trans folk, f2m or m2f (mainly m2f i might add) who belive the world owes them something, and they shouldnt have to integrate, or put effort in to be accepted. and demand to be taken as normal women, with 4 days of stubble, and sounding like tom jones. Sorry, but transition is effort, put some in, or gtfo...
THese are the sorta folk i feel uncomfortable around, or behave like im exactly the same as them, while they sit in the cafe shaving with thier electric razor AT THE TABLE >> (you can imagine i walked out....)

I get the discomfort, I really do. But people keep humbling me.

When an older super-conservative christian woman DEMANDS that she take me out to lunch and clothes shopping... having met me and knowing full well what I look and dress like... and isn't embarassed in the least to be seen with me... well, that really opened my eyes.

You'd think she'd have problems with "guilt by association," being seen as endorsing my "perversion" or something by religious types we might encounter. But no, she put aside the nasty things she heard, did her own research, and best of all - saw ME, not the "condition."

So I dunno, for me, as a TS, to refuse to be seen with anyone less passable than I would be... SO wrong. I do understand the discomfort, as I HATE attracting attention, but geez... if SHE can get over it, so should I.

~Kate~

Personally I experience no discomfort.  It doesn't matter if I'm next to an unpassable Trans woman.  I'm sure many people must just assume me to be a wife/daughter/friend.  I did feel uncomfortable for a while, but when I came up with the philosophy that I would probably be seen as an SO and I actually TRIED it and it worked, it boosted my confidence where I don't feel uncomfortable anymore.

To get over your discomfort, you may actually need to associate with some non-passables and see how you are treated.  You may find that you are still treated as a woman or you may be read.  If you think you are truly 100% passable, then I challenge you to see if you can get away with being around unpassable trans people.  I found the focus was usually on them.  If you pass still, it should really boost your confidence and if you are read, then you are in fact NOT 100% passable and there are some things to work on then.

QuoteTo the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

I don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

QuoteTo the second, you initiated the post by stepping to the stage and announcing your feelings and thoughts on the matter and then asked for responses. If you can clock other ts, then don't you think other ts' easily clock you along with many other people who simply don't care about your status?

Yes, I think most transwomen can clock other transwomen visually. But so what?

QuoteWhy are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

I didn't say I was afraid to. Hey, this is San Francisco, the custom is to not make eye contact with passersby. Making eye contact is not the norm, so you are saying something if you make eye contact, most likely it would be interpreted  by the other person as  saying "I clocked you."

Quote from: Melissa on June 19, 2007, 01:01:25 PM
Personally I experience no discomfort.  It doesn't matter if I'm next to an...

This isn't about being next to an unpassable transwoman. It is not a passing issue, I have lived almost three years fulltime, I am just comfortable being who I am, I don't try to worry about whether I am 100% passable, OTOH I am my own worst enemy, I mean if I am in one of my moods and I check out at the supermarket and they just say thank you and not "thank you, ma'am" I think "Oh did I just get clocked?" I don't assume that just because no one ever calls me "sir"  or that I get ma'amed usually several times a day, or that no one raises an eyebrow at me anymore, that I am passing 100% because I don't believe virtually anyone does, least of all me, but that is my lack of self-esteem talking. When I think intellectually and not emotionally, I know that I pass better than the vast majority of  mid-late transitioners, I also know that I am more attractive than 90% of women my age. I also know that I still need to work on my voice which is improving and, even more importantly, continue to work on my recovery and re-build my self-esteem.

Personally I could care less about an unpassable transsexual, nor do I really care that much if they do or do not pass.
I put effort into such things as how I look and my voice, but I lived with enough gender ambiguity at points in my life that I could care less if somebody reads me one way or another on occasion.  I am a strange bird for a transsexual, but I know who I am and what I need to do, and I know that passing all of the time is not going to happen, at least right now.  The strange thing is I have only ever had issues when I showed my credit card (they thought I stold my own credit card).  People are pretty clueless when it gets down to it, at least in DC. 

I come from Chicago where there are major parts of the city where there are boys who you could swear were girls and girls you could swear were boys, none of which identify as transgender or androgyne, it is just androgynous dress and presentation is very common in Chicago.  This has been going on for over two decades there.  I used to dress this way myself for a long period of time when I lived there, it is where I hid while I figured out how to sort things out just the right way with my life. 

I think that if you are really bothered by unpassable transsexuals, it really does account for quite a bit of internalized transphobia and insecurity.  It may in fact be that they are more secure in themselves even when they don't pass, that they don't have an issue with it.  Who knows?  Who cares?

Passing to me is more of a safety issue more than anything else.  I put an effort into how I look, but how others look or present themselves, well who cares?  Really?  There is nothing to be uncomfortable with.  The thing is, even if people do read me, well, so be it, I have been read a dozen differant ways in my life, if not more, it is just part of my life experience growing up.   

Nobody passes all of the time, even people who were born into the sex that they identify with and presenting as such.  There are manish women and femme boys who identify with thier birth sex, but frequently get misinterpated for the opposite sex.  It happens, such is life.  I just think that some are trans people are hurt more internally by ambiguity than others.  While I have issues with how I see myself, those issues do not make me fear gender ambiguity or being read. 

I think anytime that we feel uncomfortable around people who are different, there is some soul searching that needs to be done. I mean, who hasn't been uncomfortable seeing someone who is badly disfigured, say from a fire? In AA, it is called taking someone else's inventory.

I am just going to keep working on cleaning up my side of the street and, as much as I can, reaching out to those who need my help. I spend most of my time in the company of GGs, maybe I will check out a trans meeting and see if I can reach out to a transwoman who is struggling like I do to alcoholic newcomers.

Awhile back, someone at the SF Human Rights Commission invite me to become a regular speaker for various trans support groups, Now that I am sober, I am going to pursue doing that.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 01:08:41 PMI don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

so you're saying you're psychic then?


to get back on topic: don't care if someone doesn't pass too well tbh as it doesn't really effect me, if someone's a bit odd like many not so great passing people then i'm going to be made a little uncomfortable like anyone would.

QuoteTo the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

Well i met with a trans activist, as a member of the sheffield uni lgbt committee, and she assumed i was a bi or lesbian female :) even when i told her i was trans, she thought i was f2m :), not all ->-bleeped-<-s can read, and tbh, most of us read wrong.

QuoteWhy are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

imo, i dont want to aknowlage another trans person, i wouldnt aknowlage a random in the street, thier just another random, im not in some little ->-bleeped-<- club, nor do i want to be ,we dont have a secret handshake, i know as little about them as anyone else, so why the hell should i act like thier any different?

QuoteI come from Chicago where there are major parts of the city where there are boys who you could swear were girls and girls you could swear were boys, none of which identify as transgender or androgyne, it is just androgynous dress and presentation is very common in Chicago.  This has been going on for over two decades there.  I used to dress this way myself for a long period of time when I lived there, it is where I hid while I figured out how to sort things out just the right way with my life. 

That's not just Chicago, it's in every major city, but especially out west. I don't know when T-identified people got the idear that they were the only people in the world challenging gender role expectations, but gays and lesbians have been challenging sterotypes for centuries. Sometimes I think that people that are transitioning are simply too secluded away from society, because by some of the comments I see here, many people are clueless when it comes to anything outside of "the norm," or heterosexism.

plus some folk just look androgenous, regardless of trying...
sh*t dont always have a motive...

Quote from: Mawd on June 19, 2007, 04:22:04 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 01:08:41 PMI don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

so you're saying you're psychic then?


to get back on topic: don't care if someone doesn't pass too well tbh as it doesn't really effect me, if someone's a bit odd like many not so great passing people then i'm going to be made a little uncomfortable like anyone would.

Actually, yes I already said I am prescient. But everyone has the same ability, to some degree.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

Your original question was, is your reaction normal? Sure, we all notice things about people all the time. I think what you need to ask yourself is, what is the basis of your bigotry? What is it exactly that makes you think you are better? Because you had the money for all this cosmetic surgery or because it's important to you to be passable while it's not important to them or because they don't care that they are not passable?

Through out the years I have seen many shows on TV about transsexuals, female impersonators and crossdressers. Invariably there are those who simply look like men in dresses. I clearly remember thinking, don't those poor bastards realize how ridiculous they look? I am not like that, that is not what I am. I will just stay in the closet thank you.

However, when I finally came out, passing had little to do with what I was feeling. Clearly crossdressing is not going to solve my problems, so why worry about it. What did I care what anyone thinks of me or how I dress?

I think this is multi-faceted. You have put a tremendous effort into not only being passable, but trying to be attractively passable. This has been a great expense financially, emotionally and in physical pain. Perhaps when you see someone who don't care, it makes you feel devalued. Like all that effort for nothing.

Here is what I used to look like.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2Felizabeth068.jpg&hash=5c967b5ab10ede6d840bb11485bfbffff64e9bca)

I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.

I am the person you are talking about and all I can tell you is that I don't think of you any differently than I would think of anyone that judges someone by their appearance. It's your problem not mine. Everyone decides for themselves what is going to bother them. It is in your power to change that any time. If you are in recovery you should be thinking about not trying to control things you don't control. You have no control on how anyone presents themselves. You are setting yourself up by deciding to let it annoy you. You could just as easily let it roll off you and realize that as long as you are going to be upset when other don't present as you believe they should, you are always going to be upset. Once you are upset, you have a reason to drink or drug. You deserve it, for putting up with all this bad behavior. People not complying with your wishes. You have to change that kind of thinking. There is no right and wrong when it comes to passing. I don't want to be a man passing as a woman, I want to be a woman. I dress so people won't mistake me for a male, which it does. No one expects me to act male. Until I can get on hormones and get GRS, the rest is vanity and bores me. Not to mention, if I have to care what other transsexuals think, than I would have to care what everyone thinks. If I have to care what everyone thinks, than I would never be able to be myself. That I won't do. Not to please you, because if you are no longer offended by my not passing, you will find something else, like how much I weigh. You will always find something to annoy you, so you will be justified in being upset.

I know this is a hard thing to fight and I know it's hard to believe that you can control what annoys you, but it's true. Ask you sponsor.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Well, this topic just went where i expected it to. Passable women have too much money, and are biggoted cows, whereas the victims are the unpassable girls.

I dont think the original poster has a biggoted view at all. I have as little money as the poorest non passing trans girl, ive had NO cosmetic surgery, or ANYTHING, and ive done things to pass, i put effort in, and oh, wow, it works, but regardless.

This topic is going where it shouldnt, back on topic girls. because a bitchfest will only result in lockage.

On the 'reading' topic, rubbish, we think we read, we dont see trans folk, we do it to feel better about ourselves. we are just observant of male features nobody else sees. anyone who says they can read any trans person is a liar.

heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?
i have man shoulders tbh, but i wear straptops, and high shoulder tees, and it hides it, bingo :) learn to dress to your body and age. this topic is WAY off topic :P

''I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.''

no, that IS your problem! this is the exact issue, you made no effort to pass, and this it was your problem, people cant take someone as female if they dont even try to pass as female... no boobs, and balding, is your problem when both are easily remedyable. so dont come telling passable people how things are...
if you didnt look like a girl, didnt try, yet demaned to be accepted as one, THAT is the sort of person that its embaracing to be around in public, and EXACTLY what the op means.

The reading all trans doesn't work. since a high enough percent of the trans pop has antropometrics similar to GG and thus, by "reading" them, you read much more GG's than trans.  That being said, someone unpassable stands out for everyone. Not the super-sleuths with eagles eyes, or the bigot who will read everyone who's out of norm, GG or not.

My own feeling is that the disconfort says more about me, than it says about them.

I was read for a few months in early HRT (I transitioned early), not fun but I built a bubble around myself which enabled me to survive, not to trive. Not caring what people tought set me in own little civilisation where few inhabited.  Soon I found that I didn't get any relief from my pain by being often read and living in my little kingdom; I decided on light FFS right there (month 3) and got it done (month 5); by month 5, before my op, HRT had worked a bit more and I got read much less often, but it still happened enough. So, I went ahead, got the op by putting them on my credit card and line of credit; best money ever borrowed  ;) .

But, after the op, I now felt uncomfortable with some other TS's in my support group outside the group setting. I was still insecure about myself; my self-esteem needed a good rebuild.

Very recently, I noticed this disconfort has magically ceased!!! I felt so comfortable within myself that I didn't need to look outside for some kind of validation by being more passable than another. I've never one to really look out for TS's anyway, so I seldom spot them.

So, Tuesday, I was just talking with people from my therapy group, outside, in full view in the sun, sitting relaxed on some steps, smiling as I spoke, laughing. I didn't really think about this recent change until I reread the thread.

yeah, i often have far too much to do when im out to care about getting read, or reading people. i count seconds like some women count callories.. ><

Quote from: Keira on June 20, 2007, 06:54:08 AM

The reading all trans doesn't work. since a high enough percent of the trans pop has antropometrics similar to GG and thus, by "reading" them, you read much more GG's than trans.

Anthropometrics don't take into account the way people move or kinesthetic perception. Ever feel that someone is staring at you from behind and you turn around and, invariably, a guy is checking you out? This is kinesthetic perception. Perception goes way beyond just anthropometrics.

Usually, if I see someone highly passabble who I perceive as trans, the perception is more about the"vibe" than physical. My instincts and intuition are extremely good, even better than most woman and way, way better than most men. I can't fathom that I ever falsely pegged a GG as trans. Sometimes, I think some of my experiences are unique and you would have to be inside my head to get it because so many people can't get what I am talking about. Again, I will repeat that one of the most important skills that an actor develops is the ability to observe and notice the subtle differences between people.

QuoteMy own feeling is that the disconfort says more about me, than it says about them.

QuoteVery recently, I noticed this disconfort has magically ceased!!! I felt so comfortable within myself that I didn't need to look outside for some kind of validation by being more passable than another. I've never one to really look out for TS's anyway, so I seldom spot them.

I never go around looking for TSs nor do I think my discomfort has much to do with insecurities about passing.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:59:17 AM
yeah, i often have far too much to do when im out to care about getting read, or reading people. i count seconds like some women count callories.. ><

It doesn't take any more time to notice the world around you than it does not to notice what is going on around on. If you worry about counting seconds, you are probably causing yourself a lot of undue stress. Stop and smell the roses.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?
i have man shoulders tbh, but i wear straptops, and high shoulder tees, and it hides it, bingo :) learn to dress to your body and age. this topic is WAY off topic :P

''I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.''

no, that IS your problem! this is the exact issue, you made no effort to pass, and this it was your problem, people cant take someone as female if they dont even try to pass as female... no boobs, and balding, is your problem when both are easily remedyable. so dont come telling passable people how things are...
if you didnt look like a girl, didnt try, yet demaned to be accepted as one, THAT is the sort of person that its embaracing to be around in public, and EXACTLY what the op means.

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

That is sooooooooo not the case. Where did you get that idea?

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?

Lots of women have jaw reduction surgery. And all kinds of surgery to make them look more femineine. Where have you been.

BTW I don't get the rockstar thing.

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 09:04:19 AM

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Money has a lot to do with who passes and gets grs? no?

I have no money, im a student, with a part time job keeping me fed and a roof over my head. im poorer than you, i can garuntee it. but oh, i pass, and ill get grs on the nhs eventually, so money has nothing to do with it really.

If you want to live your life as a transexual, fine, but im transitioning to be myself, to be female, and thats it, im not being a transexual female, or a out transperson. im living my life as me, and nobody will mar that.

Do what you like, by all means, but dont call the original poster a biggot, because they dont belive as the same as you do....

Interesting that so many feel the need to convince others as to how well they pass and why that's so.

Interesting in the sense that the way we feel about "Ourselves" is not a reality to anyone else but ourselves.

It's for the sake of discussion, I don't need your validation or anyone elses.

I often wonder where a person such as myself fits in. For many years since my initial transition, I've ended up as somewhere in between genders, or neither gender, and that's what feels right for me. Sometimes I pass as female without trying, other times I don't pass when I was trying to. C'est la vie.

I have complete respect for anyone who wishes to pass as whichever gender they choose to be. I also wish that my choice to live between genders be honored. I don't want to pass as either of the binary genders, except when absolutely necessary for safety issues. I simply wish to "pass" as myself, wherever on the continuum that expression might be at a given moment. Yes, it's utopian, but that's what I believe.

zythyra

i love how this has so badly come off topic :)
to be honest, when this started, i wondered how long it would be before it decended into personal feelings, and im only sorry that i apear to have been dragged in... _{no, no i'm not} *whistles*

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 02:51:45 PM
It's for the sake of discussion, I don't need your validation or anyone elses.

I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 12:10:06 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 09:04:19 AM

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Money has a lot to do with who passes and gets grs? no?

I have no money, im a student, with a part time job keeping me fed and a roof over my head. im poorer than you, i can garuntee it. but oh, i pass, and ill get grs on the nhs eventually, so money has nothing to do with it really.

If you want to live your life as a transexual, fine, but im transitioning to be myself, to be female, and thats it, im not being a transexual female, or a out transperson. im living my life as me, and nobody will mar that.

Do what you like, by all means, but dont call the original poster a biggot, because they dont belive as the same as you do....

I think you are missing the point here. Whether or not you pass is a matter of opinion. Not knowing you, I really don't know if you are a male to female or a female to male. That says a lot about your alleged passability. And if you are really so confused that you think anyone can be passable if they just put in enough effort, is ill informed. There are many MtF with extremely manly jaw lines and brow ridges. Nothing short of very expensive surgery will make them passable. "Willing" it, is not enough. Because you see yourself as passable, with not much effort, you assume, wrongly I might add, that anyone can.

It's not a question of whether the author of this thread thinks she is having bigoted thoughts, she stated she is. Her question was, "is it normal?". Again, you have missed the point of the thread. We all have our prejudices and methods for overcoming them, or not. I have admitted to having similar thoughts at different times and told the author how I deal with them.

Now, imagine you had a huge manly nose, and a huge ridgeline, a balding and high hairline and beard growth that gives you Noon O'clock shadow, and let me know how you intend to deal with this and become passable with no money? While what you are doing may work for you, you must realize you are in the minority here.

Love always,
Elizabeth

thanks i guess. im male to female.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Ok, that may be so.  Are you wanting an answer to your OP or would you rather argue over unrelated details?  My input was intended to help you out, but anytime somebody offers something that does not quite fit into how you see things, you get defensive.  If you want to learn and grow, you need to be willing to realize that there is a possiblity that others may be right and you might be wrong.  I'm not implying that is the case, but if you don't accept it as a possibility, then you won't be able to ascertain an equitable proposition to your original query. 

Personally, when I debate a topic, I share my point of view, but am also open to the possibility that the opposing view may be the correct one and I could possibly learn something.  In my opinion, that's the only good reason for debating subjects.

I think it's human nature to want to compare ourselves to others.  So why should the T world be any different?  Haven't we all seen others and thought we looked better?  Should we?  Of course not.  But we do. 

Women who do not and cannot pass seem to no longer care about what others think.  I think that's a wonderful quality.  I wish I had it.  But I'm not there.  When I'm out and I know I don't look my best I really don't enjoy it at all.  I start wondering who will clock me.  I begin hanging on every word and innuendo anybody says to me, probing for clues.  I start wondering if the ones who didn't stare were just being nice.  In short, it's just no fun.  Why?  Because in my female life I'm immature and insecure, and I admit it.  But nothing feels better than when I know everything is just right.  I can be myself.  And I know that I am my most feminine at those times.  That's when I've sat down and had conversations with hairdressers and makeup girls who didn't have a clue.  One day maybe I'll bat 100%.  But not yet.  I am scared spitless of being Max Klinger.

So why do we feel uncomfortable?  It is because of our own insecurities.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh276%2FDianneOnly%2Fkissgirl.gif&hash=35f4222bbcd6ce1f143d13ffe9d9553961a2ddd2)Kristi

Yeah, unless you 18 when you transition and have fine features and little beard (probable since some facial masculinisation happens until 25 and the beard usually is not at its peek until much later) then it is probably going to cost you mucho money.

If you've got the money, or the credit, you can take care of the beard and the most egregious problems (most TS I know wqant a Rhino before any other FFS) straight away. If you've got too much balding, there's no current solution but a nice expensive wig, for intermediate cases, transplant, for others, bangs or the appropriate hairstyle.

If you've got little or no money and you've got a big beard and a Cyrano nose, well what to do then besides be yourself and do the best with the resources you have.

If you've got real big passing issues, 50 inch chest and six foot 5, what do you do then, find a bridge? TS don't all come in dainty package and their feelings are just as valid as the others.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

SAY WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING WITH ALL THE DRAMA GOING ON! ::)

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:50:24 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Well that is good, than I have not offended you. But certainly you must recognize that having such nice female facial features is not something most genetic males have. You are lucky. That does not mean anyone can pass if they just set their mind to it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Kristi on June 20, 2007, 06:29:14 PM

So why do we feel uncomfortable?  It is because of our own insecurities.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh276%2FDianneOnly%2Fkissgirl.gif&hash=35f4222bbcd6ce1f143d13ffe9d9553961a2ddd2)Kristi

this is the answer girls, simple and blunt.  kuddos  kristi ;)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Fevilolddude-1.jpg&hash=ed0dc086477a2cc45e9213132cf4a50f6367ebd4) do i pass there? that was me in september last year, ive had only 6 months of hrt since ;)

Quote from: Melissa on June 20, 2007, 06:22:53 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Ok, that may be so.  Are you wanting an answer to your OP or would you rather argue over unrelated details?  My input was intended to help you out, but anytime somebody offers something that does not quite fit into how you see things, you get defensive.  If you want to learn and grow, you need to be willing to realize that there is a possiblity that others may be right and you might be wrong.  I'm not implying that is the case, but if you don't accept it as a possibility, then you won't be able to ascertain an equitable proposition to your original query. 

Personally, when I debate a topic, I share my point of view, but am also open to the possibility that the opposing view may be the correct one and I could possibly learn something.  In my opinion, that's the only good reason for debating subjects.

I don't know what we are debating here. In Mawd's case, based on what she said and her pic, and when she transitioned, she may be as close to 100% passable as anyone on the planet. But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans. The mere fact that she even thinks she is transsexual can be read by some people. If you can prove that non-verbal, non-visual perception doesn't exist, I will gladly admit I am wrong. (And I admit I am wrong on the rare occasion that I am.)

if perhaps you were a behavioural phsyc, but hey, girls have some male behavioural traits too. it means nothing.

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:54:55 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:50:24 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Well that is good, than I have not offended you. But certainly you must recognize that having such nice female facial features is not something most genetic males have. You are lucky. That does not mean anyone can pass if they just set their mind to it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Well, I wouldn't go overboard, the right camera angle and pose can do a lot to feminize the face. Pre-ffs I had an avatar that I posted on a lesbian and other forums and everyone read me as female. I will say though that the subject does have fairly nice features though.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 10:22:15 PM
if perhaps you were a behavioural phsyc, but hey, girls have some male behavioural traits too. it means nothing.

One doesn't need to have any special skills to pick up traits that transsexuals display. It's a moot point though, if you pass well enough that only rare people usually TSs themselves can read you, you have nothing to worry about.

QuoteSAY WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING WITH ALL THE DRAMA GOING ON!

Why are you shouting?

Call it drama if you wish, imo I think it's great that we're discussing this subject. No one is going to overcome decades of shame and internalized transphobia by keeping it all hidden in the closet.

What good does it really do us to buy into the binary gender system? I lived through much pain trying to fit in, for me there is life outside the binary, and I want to create and live in a world that has room for more than two genders. Whether or not they "pass". I don't need or want to pass as either/or, I need a world where it's safe to express ANY gender. And we need to start here with our sisters and brothers.
   
zythyra

if your looking for them. but i spend my time looking at the world, and people, not trying to figure out whos trans.

and the camera angle is s*** there
my jaw looks massive

Funny I got this thread in my head, when I am out, I can't help but see if I notice TSs! I actually went two days without a spotting! (good or bad) `I saw a really hot Asian "100% passsable" TS today, I looked at her as she passed and she diverted her eyes, maybe she thinks I clocked her. Who knows?

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 10:28:51 PM
if your looking for them. but i spend my time looking at the world, and people, not trying to figure out whos trans.

and the camera angle is s*** there
my jaw looks massive

Well, not massive, why do you post your avatar if you don't want people to look at it. Let's get real, we are looking at the world here, and, unlike a lot of people, I say what I think, I don't blow smoke up people's asses, you look pretty good, and you are young, I am sure you will do just fine. Just be real, please.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PMImplicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Others that I acctually know and interact with on a day to day basis not others that are just random peeps of an internet forum.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:16:50 PM

I don't know what we are debating here. In Mawd's case, based on what she said and her pic, and when she transitioned, she may be as close to 100% passable as anyone on the planet. But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans. The mere fact that she even thinks she is transsexual can be read by some people. If you can prove that non-verbal, non-visual perception doesn't exist, I will gladly admit I am wrong. (And I admit I am wrong on the rare occasion that I am.) 

You're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

I think she meant rachael, mellissa90299 hasn't passed judgement on me.

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 11:18:28 PM
I think she meant rachael, mellissa90299 hasn't passed judgement on me.

Mawd looks great, so does Rachel, I only give people my honest opinion and only if they seem to be asking for it, I don't think it does anyone a service when you tell them how feminine or how passable they look just to make them feel good.

Quote from: regina on June 20, 2007, 11:09:18 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:26:44 PM
I will say though that the subject does have fairly nice features though.

Mawd, i think you look beautiful. Ignore this pissing contest, we should all look as good as you.

QuoteOne doesn't need to have any special skills to pick up traits that transsexuals display.

No, it just takes a great deal of practice. You have to obsess over it pretty much 24/7 to the point where you have little energy for anything else in your life.

Gina M.

You are with me 24/7? Being able to read people is what I do for a living, I made enough money to pay for my FFS, SRS and BA because of these skills, so I wouldn't be so quick to scoff at them. The only reason that I have so much time to play here is that I am on disability, which right now is 100% of salary or $75,000 per year. I will probably be in recovery for a year although my compensation will be reduced to around $55k Somehow I will manage to squeak by, but the good news is that I will be here to entertain you.

I'm not really fussed, the fact that I look ok was small point in my line of argument not to stroke my ego, enough people do that on a day to day basis that I don't really get off on it anymore or anything. Thanks for being honest though, it's possible to tear appart practically any picture if you set your mind to it.

QuoteYou're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

Mawd, actually the reverse is true, I suspected that you were not raised strictly as a male that's why I put that caveat in. There is a genetic boy who is being raised as a girl here in Norcal, when she grows up, she will likely pass "absolutely." But IMO she is not a transsexual because she never really had to transition from the male to female role.

I don't get how any TS can exercise a special trait if they've spent 10 or even 20 years living as a women and transitioned in their 20's, unless they've had no social contact with any women or men for all these years. Even for the others, many had a good base of socialisation since they never really integrated into male society and absorbed female socialisation (without being able to use it); that's my case. I had a good base and picked so much more in just one year and I bet this will continue in the future.

My sister is 5 foot 8, considered pretty but has more male traits than most men I know, she's more aggressive than 3 other guys put together and runs an entire department at 32 years old. Her 6 foot 2 boyfriend's got more female trait than her. But as far as I know, she's no man (that I know... Since I don't have "the power"... ).

There are older transitioners that don't get rid of their male socialisation very easily and don't pick up on female socialisation easily either. But, these are not the majority of TS after a few year of socialisation, unless you lump many GG into the TS realm (hey, they didn't know they weren't really women... )

The point is as always, why care so much!!!!! The fact that someone can believe they can discriminate absolutely any TS is something I can't fathom. My opinion is that this is way too much attention spent on looking around for clues that point to nothing but our own insecurities, and says nothing about the person in front of us.

I'm in no way unpassable, but I do get hastled in around my house because they knew me before transition. So, I'm living the unpassable life around my house while still passing, oh the irony of this. Still, its only when I'm being followed and yelled at on the street that I feel the weight of this. That others are uncomfortable (because they know I was a man before because they know where I live) I don't give a crap, its their own problem; as long as they resolve their conflict internally and let me live in peace, I'm happy.

Quote from: Keira on June 20, 2007, 11:42:47 PM... )

The point is as always, why care so much!!!!!

Well, you just posted five paragraphs about something you have no interest in? I wish you would read what I said and not mis characterize what I say. I never said I go around looking for clues, in fact, I have said just the opposite. And I never said that I could read any transwomen. My belief is that everyone carries some trait that someone, sometime can read. Does it really matter if one person out of a million can read you?

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 11:41:51 PM

QuoteYou're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

Mawd, actually the reverse is true, I suspected that you were not raises strictly as a male that's why I put that caveat in. There is a genetic boy who is being raised as a girl here in Norcal, when she grows up, she will likely pass "absolutely." But IMO she is not a transsexual because she never really had to transition from the male to female role.

I had to transition from a male to female role just I only lived properly in a male role for all of 6 weeks before I thought "f**k this" and went FT, my parents didn't enforce any gender stereotypes on us at all, well, it was more that we both got equal dose of gender stereotypes, point is we were encoraged to just be ourselves. To quote my mother "if you want to be a girl you can be a girl".

Melissa,
Did you actually read the 5 paragraph instead of being "witty" at my expense.
I truly don't appreciate it and I'm signing off from this thread.

I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

Quote from: NatalieC on June 21, 2007, 01:50:47 AM
I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

Laff, you say something super insulting, then say "no offense". I am actually laughing right now, huge smile on my face. I can't believe you really think you are better than me. You think I owe you something? I also never use a female voice, I have never even tried. I spent most of my life pretending to be a man only to have "true ->-bleeped-<-'s" tell me I need to use a pretend voice? And pretend to be something I am not. I don't need to "act" like a woman, just like any woman don't need to act. I am fine being myself.

What I am super glad about is the fact that my happiness is not dependent on how others present themselves. I am also glad I am not a superficial judgmental person that judges people based on their own truth. And I am really glad I am not having discussions with strangers about it, so they know I am a judgmental shallow person. Nothing personal.

What I really hope is that I continue to embarrass people like you with my "I don't care what you think" attitude. I will live in my absolute unpassable bliss, while you will remain upset about something you can do nothing about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Love always,
Elizabeth

I don't mean to stir this up but i'm going to anyway....

If someone can't be bothered to pass and doesn't much care that people see them as a TV or a bloke in a dress then whatever, doesn't much effect me, it's your life and you can live it how you please. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect people to accept you as something you don't present as when you could present that way you just choose not to be because you essentially can't be arsed.

Clothes don't mean squat to me/ transition is all about how people percieve me and finally fitting in, I was tired of being the oddball girl/boy weirdo and when i transitioned everything just clicked and my life became enjoyable, I didn't start enjoying my life because I was wearing womens clothes at all and if you're not trying to pass as a woman that's essentially what you're life comes down to.

Though i could just be an oddball as I never did crossdress.

This topic has been discussed many times before and again it has raised the same hackles as before but none the less a relevant topic.  I remember when i first started this journey, looking in the mirror I would often despair that I looked like a freak a "guy in a dress" consequently I stayed locked behind closed doors or restricted my activities to the privacy of group meetings and such.  It got to the point that I couldn't bear to be shut it, trapped by my insecurities, so regardless what others thought I ventured out.  I know there were times where folks would stare at me in passing and I was ridiculed for the way I looked.  But you know something at the time I was doing everything thing possible and affordable to pass.  I can imagine that there were those who would have thought that i didn't put any effort into my appearance but believe me I did.

I can understand the embarrassment that some TS may suffer when in the presence of one that doesn't pass so well or appears not to be concerned by their looks as everyone experiences the same type of feeling when one of their peer group goes against or doesn't "properly" reflect the norm.   From my military life I remember how embarrassed I was when I saw fellow soldiers in uniform looking unkempt and disheveled and how they brought shame to my group.  The same goes for us, but unless we know the intimate details about the TS in question, who are we to pass judgement, to say that they are not trying, to say that they don't care, maybe they are doing all they can to climb out of the rat hole that is their life.

Of course there are those who naturally flaunt the social norms, the flamboyant ones, the ones who want to be seen as "men in dresses", "women in pants" (That doesn't sound right :) )  Personally I find that folks like Dame Edna, bring just as much ridicule on our community more than any non-passing TS who may be encountered out there.

Just some random thoughts.

Steph

Quote from: regina on June 21, 2007, 12:59:35 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 11:34:07 PMI am on disability, which right now is 100% of salary or $75,000 per year. I will probably be in recovery for a year although my compensation will be reduced to around $55k Somehow I will manage to squeak by, but the good news is that I will be here to entertain you.

And the bad news is the people of California are seemingly paying a lot of money to publish your 'theories' and  subsidize these distractions from your recovery. When I think of how, while I was teaching elementary school, I had to beg for a hundred dollars in art supplies for the kids I was teaching, it makes me sick. Focus on your recovery and save your life. The need to win Internet arguments isn't going to help you get healthy.

Gina M.

It makes you sick that people who are ill receive disability that they collect that THEY paid into? Disability payments comes from the pool of money paid in not from general revenues. I only get $700/week from the state, the rest from Liberty Mutual.

I am focused on recovery otherwise I wouldn't be trying to figure out things like why I feel uncomfortable in these situations. I think I am improving as the last time I saw an unpassable TG, I didn't feeel uncomfortable. But I did feel somewhat superior which isn't right.

I am still working on my character flaws. And I have a lot of them, one of which is always trying to get the last word in arguments. If you read my post carefully, you will see I modified my view a bit about it being impossible to pass "absolutely." Philosophically, I feel virtually nothing is an absolute. Anyway, I am not going to continue this argument, it is pointless.

I apologize to everyone who I might have pissed off, lately I have been feeling great but I still get into funks where I feel really, really ->-bleeped-<-ty and, though I don't mean it, it comes through in my posts here.

BTW the treatment  that people get to recover from drugs and alcohol is far less costly in the long run than leaving the disease untreated. Just think of what it costs to institutionalize or hospitalize an untreated addict/alcoholic.

Quote from: Steph on June 21, 2007, 06:42:13 AM

Of course there are those who naturally flaunt the social norms, the flamboyant ones, the ones who want to be seen as "men in dresses", "women in pants" (That doesn't sound right :) )  Personally I find that folks like Dame Edna, bring just as much ridicule on our community more than any non-passing TS who may be encountered out there.

Just some random thoughts.

Steph

ah, so people who pass are all like dame edna?

wtf does a drag queen have to do with the passability of TRANSEXUAL women?


maud, im on your side here.
and melissa, yes, there is too much ego strokeing.
you know, in the uk at the gic, one must put effort into thier transition of your not allowed to transition. you must try to look like the gender you wish to be accepted as, to be physically allowed by therapists to proceed. god, this effort buisness is such a drag isnt it?
and yeah maud, this isnt about clothes for me either, i never dressed in womens clothes, or wore a bra, till i had breasts of my own ;). no early life 'crossdressing' here. I know im a girl, of course i do, im me afterall. my transition is to let society know im a girl too, and so that they will treat me as myself, without having to tell them what i am. so call that pandering to society. but its THEM that i want to change thier opinion of me to that of a female. if i dont try, im still a girl,sure, but nobody will see her. Such is transition. and in the UK, pass or not, i MUST be seen to be atleast trying to present female.

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 02:51:18 AM

Quote from: NatalieC on June 21, 2007, 01:50:47 AM
I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

Laff, you say something super insulting, then say "no offense". I am actually laughing right now, huge smile on my face. I can't believe you really think you are better than me. You think I owe you something? I also never use a female voice, I have never even tried. I spent most of my life pretending to be a man only to have "true ->-bleeped-<-'s" tell me I need to use a pretend voice? And pretend to be something I am not. I don't need to "act" like a woman, just like any woman don't need to act. I am fine being myself.

What I am super glad about is the fact that my happiness is not dependent on how others present themselves. I am also glad I am not a superficial judgmental person that judges people based on their own truth. And I am really glad I am not having discussions with strangers about it, so they know I am a judgmental shallow person. Nothing personal.

What I really hope is that I continue to embarrass people like you with my "I don't care what you think" attitude. I will live in my absolute unpassable bliss, while you will remain upset about something you can do nothing about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I don't know how to say this without offending you but it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing. It's just not healthy to want people to react negatively toward you but I don't think that you really feel that way, I think that you are using this as a defense mechanism. Have you told your therapist about this "attitude?"
 


BTW Rachel you have made amazing progress, you should be proud. And time is on your side, so it's only going to get better. And if we are not going to make any effort to present in a manner that we are looked upon correctly (as a female) then what's the point? If all one wants to do is wear women's clothes and speak in a masculine voice, I would respectfully question whether that person is transsexual or CD.

QuoteIf you've got too much balding, there's no current solution ...

http://news.hairlosshelp.com/hair-cloning/intercytex-releases-faq-on-their-icx-trc-hair-cloning-procedure/
Currently in Phase2 trails in the UK, probably available in around 2010.

QuoteIf you've got real big passing issues, 50 inch chest and six foot 5, what do you do then, find a bridge?

Bridges aren't certain enough.

There is my contribution to this thread.

Jessica

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:16:50 PM
But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans.

That is not necessarily so. The one thing that helps me is that I do not have any overt behavioral cues that may alert someone. I know this because it has been pointed out time and time again. I have even been approached by other T gals who wish to know how to carry themselves and behave in a similar manner. I cannot help them because it is natural for me. For years I was picked on for walking like a girl or talking like one and on and on. I had to work at appearing masculine in my manners. I took on a fake limp to hide how I walk naturally, cut my hair short, and tried to keep my body language less animated.

I am no one special. If I grew up in such a way I am sure that many others have as well. Besides the "masculine" and "feminine" behaviors are all dependent on one's own culture and also the host culture that you may find yourself in. African American males have a different set of expectations, are raised differently, and then have to reconcile all of those things with a dominant white culture in the United States. Same thing for every minority here and the states and then there are changes in expectations and even in terminology depending on where one may live in the US (or the world). There are no hard and fast rules for either side.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 21, 2007, 08:16:00 AM
it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing...

Speaking *only* for myself, there was a time where I hesitated on trying TOO hard to pass for fear I would fail and look ridiculous. It's a catch-22: if you present totally female, you're more likely to pass... but if you fail, you're also more likely to attract stares and ridicule. So it was tempting to be somewhat androgynous, where if someone read me as a male, they might just think I was dressing and behaving *feminine*, and not realize I wanted them to read me as a woman.

I got over that in terms of visual presentation, but I STILL struggle with it with the voice... where I fear making a fool of myself and sounding fake and silly, so I end up not putting as much effort into it as I should when speaking with people.

Point being, maybe not all unpassable TSs are trying to challenge gender expectations... maybe some of them are just afraid to try and fail?

And Elizabeth, this isn't meant to apply to you at ALL. I just mean maybe some OTHER TSs out there might simply be afraid. I *love* how self-accepting you are, and I'm learning a lot from you. ;)

~Kate~

Quote from: LostInTime on June 21, 2007, 08:45:57 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:16:50 PM
But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans.

That is not necessarily so. The one thing that helps me is that I do not have any overt behavioral cues that may alert someone. I know this because it has been pointed out time and time again. I have even been approached by other T gals who wish to know how to carry themselves and behave in a similar manner. I cannot help them because it is natural for me. For years I was picked on for walking like a girl or talking like one and on and on. I had to work at appearing masculine in my manners. I took on a fake limp to hide how I walk naturally, cut my hair short, and tried to keep my body language less animated.

So effectively, you never assimilated as a male, so my caveat would apply in your case. Someone who "acted like a girl" all her life,  regardless of what sexual organs, she has is going to be perceived as a girl. That is not hard to figure out.

i was raised a boy, but my manerisms, behaviour, walk, stance, just me, is totally female, my friends have said they cant belive they didnt notice, and that its natural. tbh, i dont care if ->-bleeped-<-s want to try to read me, but if non trans folk cant, im happy with that. i garuntee half these 'transexuals' you all claim to have clocked turn out to be nothing but natal females... paranoia makes people see things...
I met a trans activist, who lets face it, has met a lot of trans people, and she didnt know i was trans till i mentioned something about my transition. then asked if i was f2m or m2f. i was just wearing jeans and a hoodie, although i agree with the andro sentiment, i find i pass better when not trying to hard, and feeling comfortable, in jeans and a hoodie, than in normal more feminine clothing. i can relax, and its eaiser to see me.
Though lets not confuse worry about being read, for not feeling one has to try...

People don't expect transwomen to dress butch, that really throws them.

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 09:07:30 AM
i garuntee half these 'transexuals' you all claim to have clocked turn out to be nothing but natal females... paranoia makes people see things...

Calling me paranoid contributes nothing to the discussion and only diminishes you, not me.

I can guarantee you that not one of them was, I have I would guess thirty years of life experience over you, I have had two professions that depended on having developed a keen and accurate assessment of non-verbal communication. My instincts and intuition are uncanningly accurate. If you have learned anything in your short time on this planet, you should know that my reality is not yours and yours is not mine.

ah, your older than me, so your better than me. gotcha.



and butch works :) my non trans best friend told me things like wearing hoodies, and my eyebrow piercing make me pass, because you just wouldnt expect a trans person to do something fairly masculine. but hey, its me, and it works.

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 03:25:33 PM
ah, your older than me, so your better than me. gotcha.



and butch works :) my non trans best friend told me things like wearing hoodies, and my eyebrow piercing make me pass, because you just wouldnt expect a trans person to do something fairly masculine. but hey, its me, and it works.

Not better, just wiser.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 21, 2007, 08:16:00 AM
...
Elizabeth, I don't know how to say this without offending you but it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing. It's just not healthy to want people to react negatively toward you but I don't think that you really feel that way, I think that you are using this as a defense mechanism. Have you told your therapist about this "attitude?"
 
...

It is not so much that I delight in it as much as I just don't care. It really does not concern me what others think. There is always going to be bigoted people. Listen, there are plenty of women that look more masculine than me and I am sure people comment about them all the time. Studies have shown that TS women exhibit more feminine characteristics than genetic women, particularly younger genetic women.

I think all this business about trying to emulate women is completely silly. I am not interested in living my life how others see fit. If I did, I could have just remained in my male role. I have been dressing and living my life as a woman for three years now. I am treated great in my community and rarely does anyone stare at me. I have never had anyone comment about me, at least not where I could hear it.

So? If I can successfully live my life the way I want, and be treated with respect and dignity, which is the case. It's just really hard for me to buy into all this other nonsense about passing, when the truth is, it's all just a matter of opinion. My life is working, that is all I care about. The fact that my life is working is proof enough to me, that all this other hooey about passing or not passing is just ego, vanity and insecurity.

My advice to other TS's is simple, don't worry about what others think, say or do. You don't control it, so it's a waste of time to worry about it. Trying to live one's life for the expectations of others is not how I choose to live my life. So if anyone does not like how I dress or present myself, it's really just too bad. Look away. I don't represent the TS community, I represent myself. My one rule is this. Please myself because if I don't, no one else will. And it really works for me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

if you dont represent the TS community, dont comment on its behalf...

younger genetic women arent as feminine as a ts? SURE... just because women are less classically feminine, doesnt mean you get to do les s work to pass. being female isnt about femininity, its beyond that, and just not careing wont ever make you accepted as a woman, but tolerated.

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 05:40:49 PM
if you dont represent the TS community, dont comment on its behalf...

younger genetic women arent as feminine as a ts? SURE... just because women are less classically feminine, doesnt mean you get to do les s work to pass. being female isnt about femininity, its beyond that, and just not careing wont ever make you accepted as a woman, but tolerated.

Maybe that is where we differ. I don't need to be accepted. I mean what you are saying is that, no one will ever accept me if I don't pass. So if I basically lie and fool them, they will accept me. I am not a genetic woman. I am a woman that was born in a man's body. Pretending that is not the case to gain acceptance is not acceptance.

I also pretended I was a man for 42 years to gain acceptance and was accepted. I am not looking for acceptance from anyone that will not accept the truth about me. That I was a woman born in a male body. I am not ashamed of this and see no reason to hide it. I am also not interested in the friendship or acceptance from anyone that would only accept me, believing I am a genetic woman. To me that is shallow.

Perhaps you are embarrassed or ashamed that you are TS? You feel a strong need to hide this fact from everyone. It doesn't bother you that someone may not accept you unless you fool them into thinking you are a genetic female. I do not have this issue. You see, everyone who treats me kind and with dignity, knows exactly what I am. No pretense, no lies, no hiding my past or what I am. That is important to me, after hiding what I was for so long. Perhaps that is our only real difference.

Love always,
Elizabeth

yeah, im embaraced, i was forced to be a masculine person all my life, and punished for showing feminity, and made to fear it. so yeah, im embaraced about being a transexual, and i feel because of what happened in my life, i deserve teh right to be a woman, not a trans woman, not a transexual, but a woman, nobody will take that from me, and in passing, i hide nothing, im not lieing. i like my hair like this, breasts came with hrt, i dont paticularly feel either way about them, im a girl, i have a girls body, and telling someone im a girl is no lie to me, its the truth. id never lie about the fact i was born not in a girls body, but id only say that if someone asked what physical sex i was born as...

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 06:21:57 PM
yeah, im embaraced, i was forced to be a masculine person all my life, and punished for showing feminity, and made to fear it. so yeah, im embaraced about being a transexual, and i feel because of what happened in my life, i deserve teh right to be a woman, not a trans woman, not a transexual, but a woman, nobody will take that from me, and in passing, i hide nothing, im not lieing. i like my hair like this, breasts came with hrt, i dont paticularly feel either way about them, im a girl, i have a girls body, and telling someone im a girl is no lie to me, its the truth. id never lie about the fact i was born not in a girls body, but id only say that if someone asked what physical sex i was born as...

Racheal,

I am so sorry to hear you are embarrassed about what you really are. I believe that the truth about you is where your true beauty lies. It is the strength we gain from the struggle that defines who we are. I hope for you that someday you will be able to embrace your TSism as a badge of honor, because it is. The one thing I do know, and you may take this with however many grains of salt as you wish, is that no one will never find true happiness until they can love themselves, worts and all. Pretending one is not TS will not allow this. One can not try to hide who they are and love themselves at the same time.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I am a woman, pure and simple, transitioning is all about getting the outside to match the inside so I can live a normal life like any other woman on this planet. I am not fooling anyone by getting people to see me as what I am. A woman. I am not a man in a dress. I am a woman.

Thats how I feel Melissa! Like I need to present an outside to match the inside. I am a woman too and I want to make every effort I can to be myself as a woman.
And Elizabeth I dont think I am better than anyone else especially not you. I just feel differently about things than you. I do care what others think about me. I cant help it!

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 06:35:39 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 06:21:57 PM
yeah, im embaraced, i was forced to be a masculine person all my life, and punished for showing feminity, and made to fear it. so yeah, im embaraced about being a transexual, and i feel because of what happened in my life, i deserve teh right to be a woman, not a trans woman, not a transexual, but a woman, nobody will take that from me, and in passing, i hide nothing, im not lieing. i like my hair like this, breasts came with hrt, i dont paticularly feel either way about them, im a girl, i have a girls body, and telling someone im a girl is no lie to me, its the truth. id never lie about the fact i was born not in a girls body, but id only say that if someone asked what physical sex i was born as...

Racheal,

I am so sorry to hear you are embarrassed about what you really are. I believe that the truth about you is where your true beauty lies. It is the strength we gain from the struggle that defines who we are. I hope for you that someday you will be able to embrace your TSism as a badge of honor, because it is. The one thing I do know, and you may take this with however many grains of salt as you wish, is that no one will never find true happiness until they can love themselves, worts and all. Pretending one is not TS will not allow this. One can not try to hide who they are and love themselves at the same time.

Love always,
Elizabeth

no, pure and simple, NO

I am not embaraced about what i really am, im transitioning, im a girl, ive never been a girl, transexual is a label i dont choose to apply, once im post op, im just a girl, end of, hey, i was born with a penis, but im NOT a transexual. the name ashames me, and i cannot associate with transexuality as a part of me, its not, i want the transition over.
i dont wish to be a part of the community when im post op either, even less so as the days go by even now.  but thats my right to decide.
what i am, is a human being, and a female human. my life, my rules.
i dont wish to wear transexual as a badge, you want to? go ahead. but i dont want to, nor do i have to, im transitioning to be a girl on the outside, not something inbetween,, im not proud, nor will i EVER be proud of being a transexual, its a torturous, terrifying, upsetting part of my life i want over, and i will move on, and live my life. i

I hate the term transsexual too. Some have started using the term intersexed.

I had a discussion about this in my recovery group where I am out as TS and I was discussing my upcoming SRS and some of the issues that affect my recovery. The facilitator implied that I should be proud of what I am, I said that I am proud to be a woman but not proud to have been born with a birth defect.

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 07:35:23 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 06:35:39 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 06:21:57 PM
yeah, im embaraced, i was forced to be a masculine person all my life, and punished for showing feminity, and made to fear it. so yeah, im embaraced about being a transexual, and i feel because of what happened in my life, i deserve teh right to be a woman, not a trans woman, not a transexual, but a woman, nobody will take that from me, and in passing, i hide nothing, im not lieing. i like my hair like this, breasts came with hrt, i dont paticularly feel either way about them, im a girl, i have a girls body, and telling someone im a girl is no lie to me, its the truth. id never lie about the fact i was born not in a girls body, but id only say that if someone asked what physical sex i was born as...

Racheal,

I am so sorry to hear you are embarrassed about what you really are. I believe that the truth about you is where your true beauty lies. It is the strength we gain from the struggle that defines who we are. I hope for you that someday you will be able to embrace your TSism as a badge of honor, because it is. The one thing I do know, and you may take this with however many grains of salt as you wish, is that no one will never find true happiness until they can love themselves, worts and all. Pretending one is not TS will not allow this. One can not try to hide who they are and love themselves at the same time.

Love always,
Elizabeth

no, pure and simple, NO

I am not embaraced about what i really am, im transitioning, im a girl, ive never been a girl, transexual is a label i dont choose to apply, once im post op, im just a girl, end of, hey, i was born with a penis, but im NOT a transexual. the name ashames me, and i cannot associate with transexuality as a part of me, its not, i want the transition over.
i dont wish to be a part of the community when im post op either, even less so as the days go by even now.  but thats my right to decide.
what i am, is a human being, and a female human. my life, my rules.
i dont wish to wear transexual as a badge, you want to? go ahead. but i dont want to, nor do i have to, im transitioning to be a girl on the outside, not something inbetween,, im not proud, nor will i EVER be proud of being a transexual, its a torturous, terrifying, upsetting part of my life i want over, and i will move on, and live my life. i

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. Your chromosomes are XY, that is male. Despite what you tell yourself, you were born a man and transitioning your sex, hence transsexual, it precisely what you are. Being angry about it, or trying to demean those of us who have accepted this horrible truth, will not change that. Nor will being embarrassed or spending the rest of your life trying to conceal it. But like I said, if you beleive it works for you, then I guess It does.

Just don't presume that because it works for you, that it works for everyone, because it does not. I refuse to be ashamed or feel bad because I am a male in transition. I had no choice. This is what I am. This is how I deal with it.

So, back to where we started. If it bothers you to see people like me, perhaps it's just because it reminds you that you have never accepted and loved yourself for what you truly are. If you were really a woman, we would not be having this conversation because you would not be in a transsexual forum discussing it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

QuoteWhat I would argue is that the existence of the word "transsexual" itself may be deemed as perhaps an unfortunate creation.

I'm also not a fan of the term transsexual, or any other term that classifies who I am as a psychiatric illness. The gender continuum is quite diverse, there have been people like us for thousands of years. I have no problem with my past history, I was born how I was born and labeled how I was labeled, but that was someone else's perception. No one asked me  >:(

I have no need to hide who I am from people who I'm close to. I don't advertise it to complete strangers, but that's because of safety issues. I want to live my life, not be a statistic.

Elizabeth, I admire you and your strength to live as who you are!

zythyra

IT actually makes me smile! (No, im not mentally challenged!) at least not on paper... ??? ::)
It just reminds me of the struggle and my journey and all WE ALL go through just to live OUR LIVES as we need to truly live!

When I see an "unpassable" trans woman I think to myself now theres a person with character and guts someone whoe isn't afraid to be who she is, someone who could careless about the opinions of the masses.....someone who truly knows what to live life means....someone Id like to walk down the street with and go to lunch with in a crowded restuarant...because I tell you the chick as it going on where it counts upstairs and in her heart!

Besides NONE of "PASS" 100% of the time!

So whats the point?

Oh, And I never realistically refer to myself as a "girl" i'm just a woman!
Also refer to has the chick in the fitted jeans, tank top, and baseball cap on!
on occassion

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 08:44:47 PM

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. Your chromosomes are XY, that is male. Despite what you tell yourself, you were born a man and transitioning your sex, hence transsexual, it precisely what you are. Being angry about it, or trying to demean those of us who have accepted this horrible truth, will not change that. Nor will being embarrassed or spending the rest of your life trying to conceal it. But like I said, if you beleive it works for you, then I guess It does.

Just don't presume that because it works for you, that it works for everyone, because it does not. I refuse to be ashamed or feel bad because I am a male in transition. I had no choice. This is what I am. This is how I deal with it.

So, back to where we started. If it bothers you to see people like me, perhaps it's just because it reminds you that you have never accepted and loved yourself for what you truly are. If you were really a woman, we would not be having this conversation because you would not be in a transsexual forum discussing it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Ok elizabeth, your dead set on makeing me belive what you want. hypocrite...
and how do you know what my  chromasomes are huh?
for your information, thier XXY, and im intersexed (no melissa, IS isnt a new word for TS,). so im not a man, but ive transitioned. im a girl with birth defects. although the same applys to ts girls... in your own sentiment, let people decide what they want to call themselves, you forcing people to accept thier trans, is as much a falsity....

Chynna:yeah, some do pass 100% of the time...
melissa: IS =/= TS

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 09:40:23 PM
my  chromasomes are huh?
for your information, thier XXY, and im intersexed (no melissa, IS isnt a new word for TS,). so im not a man, but ive transitioned. im a girl with birth defects. although the same applys to ts girls... in your own sentiment, let people decide what they want to call themselves, you forcing people to accept thier trans, is as much a falsity....

Just so you know, those with Klinefelter Syndrome are considered male, not female.

and you felt like telling me this because?

Most younger transitioners are more likely to pass 100% of the time.  In fact anybody who transitions under the age of 25 tends to pass 100% of the time.  The younger you transition, the more likely you will pass 100% when you fully transition.  It is a simple fact of life with transitioning.

Gender identity disorder is the term to describe a mental illness.  Its found in the DSM.  I HATE this term, because it is the DSM that classifies any transsexual as mentally ill. 

Transsexual is a term used to describe a medical condition, not necessarily a mental illness. The term predates the classification of gender identity disorder for transsexuals in the DSM.  It was used to classify the medical condition before transsexuals were classified as a disorder under the DSM-III. A rotten man named Dr. Ray Blanchard was largely responsible for it being classified as a disorder under the DSM. I could go through the history, but the word transsexual is not inherantly describing a mental illness.  There is a strong argument to be made that associating it with a mental illness was a massive intolerant mistake.  Several countries do not take it as such.  Associating the word transsexual with a mental illness is incorrect assumption. You yourself are falling victim to the patriarchy by doing so.  It used to be gender dysphoria syndrome, which was assumed to be a physical condition.  Transsexual is a medical condition, its not a psychiatric disorder.   I will argue to death that Gender Identity Disorder needs to be tossed in the dustbin of history because it classifies transsexuals as mentally ill, the term transsexual itself is a necessary term, because it best describes the medical condition in which we suffer.  Transsexual does not have to mean mentally ill, Dr. Ray Blanchard and the DSM are to blame for that association. 

There needs to be a medical classification for what we are to get the necessary treatments.  Transsexual is it.  I rather have it be transsexual then gender identity disorder, which is inherantly describing a mental illness.  Transsexual does not have to mean mentally ill. 

I apologize for the paragraph with my attempt at a history lesson.  Transsexuals were not classified as mentally ill until the early eighties and the DSM-III.  We are not crazy. 


XXY, transitioners, some identify as intersexed, others do identify as transsexual.  When Rachael says she is not transsexual, she is absolutely right XXY is an intersexed syndrome when it gets down to it. 

Quote from: Rachael on June 21, 2007, 09:40:23 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 08:44:47 PM

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. Your chromosomes are XY, that is male. Despite what you tell yourself, you were born a man and transitioning your sex, hence transsexual, it precisely what you are. Being angry about it, or trying to demean those of us who have accepted this horrible truth, will not change that. Nor will being embarrassed or spending the rest of your life trying to conceal it. But like I said, if you beleive it works for you, then I guess It does.

Just don't presume that because it works for you, that it works for everyone, because it does not. I refuse to be ashamed or feel bad because I am a male in transition. I had no choice. This is what I am. This is how I deal with it.

So, back to where we started. If it bothers you to see people like me, perhaps it's just because it reminds you that you have never accepted and loved yourself for what you truly are. If you were really a woman, we would not be having this conversation because you would not be in a transsexual forum discussing it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Ok elizabeth, your dead set on makeing me belive what you want. hypocrite...
and how do you know what my  chromasomes are huh?
for your information, thier XXY, and im intersexed (no melissa, IS isnt a new word for TS,). so im not a man, but ive transitioned. im a girl with birth defects. although the same applys to ts girls... in your own sentiment, let people decide what they want to call themselves, you forcing people to accept thier trans, is as much a falsity....

Chynna:yeah, some do pass 100% of the time...
melissa: IS =/= TS

My apologies, IS is a completely different thing to me. Unlike me, you are not chemically male. Perhaps that is why not being mistaken for a man is so important for you. However, by the same token, you can't know what it is like to be XY and still believe you were given the wrong body. You have a genetic defect you are trying to correct. No one knows exactly why people like me feel we are in the wrong body. We just do, and nothing can change that.

However, just as I can have empathy for someone who is IS, while not experiencing the same thing as them, perhaps you might try to put yourself in the shoes of someone like me, instead of just assuming we all feel like you. You accuse me of hypocrisy, yet my position has been consistent and one of acceptance. It is not me that is intolerant of others not like me, it is you. It matters little to me what causes your dysphoria, IS or TS, it's enough to know that you are suffering.

I just don't believe in trying to blow out someone else's candle in an attempt to make mine seem brighter. In any event, it's apparent that I am not going to get through to you. I guess you are right and I am wrong. If you see me in public, come and tell me how much I disgust you. I am sure it will make you feel better. And since I won't care what you think, it won't bother me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

heh, i never said you disgust me, and i go out of my way to be nice to any trans person i happen to encounter, i know how much it hurts worrying.
and my being IS is nothing to do with my decision to transition, many IS people DONT transition. i just happen to share your dysphoria.
im no better or worse than anyone...

I am not going to get into the 100% passing issue, I will just concede that since I pass 100% of the time, (based on the fact that I never get anything but Miss or Ma'am, no strange looks, etc and people's jaws have dropped when I have disclosed) than others must as well.

So if that is the criteria I pass 100% of the time and I pass despite a less than perfect feminine voice.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 22, 2007, 12:04:18 AM
I am not going to get into the 100% passing issue, I will just concede that since I pass 100% of the time, (based on the fact that I never get anything but Miss or Ma'am, no strange looks, etc and people's jaws have dropped when I have disclosed) than others must as well.

So if that is the criteria I pass 100% of the time and I pass despite a less than perfect feminine voice.

BTW I know IS does not = TS but I read somewhere that some TSs were adopting that term though not technically IS.

Tbh I don't see how anyone's chromosones make any difference what so ever to how valid a woman you are, I don't deny I'm TS it's simply just not that big of a deal for me and it's not all that relevent unless someone really needs to know (only one person in my personal life has ever warrented telling imo) it's not like I'm making a huge effort to supress the fact I just fail to care.

If you're suggesting I wear a T-shirt which proclaims that i'm TS then you're quite simply having a laugh.

Elizabeth, if you're happy living the way you are then I've got to say good on you, I've nothing against you for that at all but your experience simply does not apply to many others, especially mine.

I don't really see how your chromosones effect how valid a woman you are, it's not like anyone can see the things.

QuoteTranssexual is a term used to describe a medical condition, not necessarily a mental illness. The term predates the classification of gender identity disorder for transsexuals in the DSM.  It was used to classify the medical condition before transsexuals were classified as a disorder under the DSM-III.

My mistake. Funny, when I was writing my post, I first wrote not liking to be classified as a medical condition, then changed it to mental illness... I should have left it as it was.

Regardless, I dislike classification of my gender variance (even that term I'm not crazy about as it still implies normalcy for the binary system) as a medical condition. I understand that some term is needed at this time so one can get insurance, etc., but ultimately I'd like to see wider acceptance of gender differences and the end of usage of such antiquated terminology. Who we are has existed throughout human history, it is much older than these current medical names; transsexual, transvestite, homosexual, etc. I'd like terms that celebrate our differences.

zythyra

Yes, im a transexual, because being intersex has NOTHING TO DO WITH ONES DESIRE TO TRANSITION.

Regina, i wholeheartedly agree

Quote from: regina on June 22, 2007, 01:44:15 AM


No, I know the actually secure, transitioned-when-I-was-twelve, 100%-ettes, used-to-be-a-transsexual but-no-more types will scoff at this pathetic dream I have of verifiable Intersexuality (but remember, only whenever I need it). But you had the intelligence to be born just before an information revolution while I was popped out during the oblivious, inane 1950s. (another boomer going boo-hoo-hoo, woe is me) You won't understand why sometimes, when i get afraid that someone I care very much about, will caress me someplace that's still too 'male' and I move their hand away, and say, "sorry, you can't touch me there, see... deep down, I don't have the credentials."

I know I'm messed up... no explanation needed.

ciao,
Gina M.

100%-ettes. LOL

meow hissss hissss

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 21, 2007, 08:44:47 PM
Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. Your chromosomes are XY, that is male.

Unless you have had a kareotype done, that is an assumption.  I do get tired of a world that is certain of what it cannot see.

Quote from: Lori on June 21, 2007, 10:22:58 PM
Just so you know, those with Klinefelter Syndrome are considered male, not female.

In the case of these chromosomal configurations "male" and "female" are mearly constructs to sooth society.

Quote from: Mawd on June 22, 2007, 03:20:21 AM
I don't really see how your chromosones effect how valid a woman you are, it's not like anyone can see the things.

It's a medically established fact that some people born with male bodies have XX chomosomes and some people born with female bodies have XY chromosomes.  The only thing that suggests something is different is the men can't father boys and the women have a lot of miscarriages.

OK kitties, come on... deeeeeeeeep breaths... one... two... relaaaaaaax...

No more personal attacks, OK?

I know this is a difficult subject to talk about without feelings getting stepped on, but IMHO it's also very interesting and helpful, as we're seeing all KINDS of insecurities being exposed here... ones we all have to deal with at some point. At least I know I do.

I'd hate to see this get locked. It'd really be ashame, as I'm learning so much about myself and my fears from it. I bet others are too.

~Kate~

Everybody settle down and read the post "Humblepie" by LynnER because she's right!!!!!!!

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14923.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14923.0.html)

Beverly

I believe most TS in their search to find out what is wrong, has explored the IS venue at one point or another either before or during transition. I may be wrong in that, but I know of several that have explored that route, including myself.

This topic is now locked.  I would advise everyone to re-visit the rules/terms of conditions that govern this site - Read and heed.

Steph

Lori is banned from posting for 2 days for personal attacks, Rachael is banned from posting for 1 day for responding to it, and continuing it. I am gonna get to the point where we start banning longer and longer for this type behavior people. I suggest following an old saying.

QuoteIf you can't say something good, don't say anything at all.

Remember attack the issue, never the person.