Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender issues are more complicated than some Christians portray (http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/08/19/transgender-issues-more-complicated-than-some-christians-portray/)
Jonathan Merritt, Religion News Service, August 19, 2013

Transgender people... have increasingly become a topic of conversation among conservative Christians. Christian television personality Pat Robertson really commented about transgender people on his "700 Club" show... Liberals praised Robertson, while some Christians criticized him. The issue was brought to the fore again when California Gov. Jerry Brown signed into law a bill letting transgender students choose which restroom they would use and whether they would compete in boy or girl sports.

These events and others led some Christian leaders to speak out against the increased sensitivity to transgender people. An article by Russell Moore at the "On Faith" forum hosted by The Washington Post, for example, argued that transgender people are essentially confused. He urged churches to teach that "our maleness and femaleness points us to an even deeper reality, to the unity and complementarity of Christ and the church"...

Most conservative Christian's arguments are rooted in Genesis 5:2: "[God] created them male and female." This view states that one must be a certain way because one was born a certain way. If God makes humans with bodies of a particular gender, the argument goes, God did so intentionally.

Great article.  Thanks for posting it. :)

An outlook that needs to be cloned in Christian circles about the 7 times Seventy level.  The Bible is an an OK book about ancient religion, but is damned lousy as a biology text book.  It was not much good at helping out the Dinosaurs.  I draw some interesting looks when I remind people that it only mentions that Adam & Eve ONLY had TWO SONS.  That creates some problems for an anti gay stance, and --- oh well.

Putting spirituality aside, transsexualism and transgenderism are very complicated issues themselves. While for sexual orientation, it's really as simple as a flip of a coin - t* issues tend to be a whole other realm of complexity.

Things were so much simpler back then when I assumed a certain gender and a sexuality... but when those forces were destabalised, I became shaken and challenged by who I was.

I am just glad that this Christian is thinking about the issue rather than qutting on his friendship because of some bias. May the Lord wrestle with his thoughts and help him be more open-minded, and may his friend receiving healing to his soul.

Quote from: Vicky on August 19, 2013, 10:54:13 PM
An outlook that needs to be cloned in Christian circles about the 7 times Seventy level.  The Bible is an an OK book about ancient religion, but is damned lousy as a biology text book.  It was not much good at helping out the Dinosaurs.  I draw some interesting looks when I remind people that it only mentions that Adam & Eve ONLY had TWO SONS.  That creates some problems for an anti gay stance, and --- oh well.

Bible list other sons as well. The third son was named Seth. Keep reading. Women were rarely ever named in the bible.

I'm just loving this!  The more this topic comes up the more opportunities we'll have to make our case. 

And religious conservatives just can't divorce themselves from the erroneous notion that body configuration id the determining factor in gender.

Yes, Genesis 5:2 does say that God created them male and female.  That speaks to sex, not gender.  It doesn't say how that gender is determined.  Religious conservatives just assume that it's because they arrived in male and female bodies.

Well, my view is that God didn't create our bodies but our Spirits or Souls. I believe that the body is a product of evolution and our seemingly fall from grace when Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. The statement "God created them male and female" to me means that we are both male and female spiritually, both attributes existing side by side. I need to check that verse in Genesis to make sure how it was written but if it was a concreted division between male and female wouldn't it be worded more along the lines of, "God created them, male and female"? Or "God created male and female"? But what do I know? Another big one is that God created man on the fifth day. Chronologically in the bible God9 either through evolution or just plain old evolution itself) created Adam from pretty much the earth after the seventh day. Who or what was "man" that was created on the fifth day? I have never really heard this adressed in any church that I have ever been to. 

Quote from: LordKAT on August 20, 2013, 03:00:44 AM

Bible list other sons as well. The third son was named Seth. Keep reading. Women were rarely ever named in the bible.

OOPS == I did know that. 

Most conservative Christian's arguments are rooted in Genesis 5:2: "[God] created them male and female." This view states that one must be a certain way because one was born a certain way. If God makes humans with bodies of a particular gender, the argument goes, God did so intentionally.


The article touched on two points that I've maintained for a while. Regarding the first paragraph. Yes, God created male and female. He also created our minds. Each person is wired a certain way. Each person was created a particular gender so there's no mistake about that. He created one person intersex,another transgender, another lesbian. It's a part of his wonderful diversity.

Second, God used many people who were not weren't noble or were gendered differently. There were eunuchs who devoted themselves to God. This is my own thought: there's this idea that evey person is supposed to be married, live in a house, wear a suit or a dress and act a certain way. This thinking to me is narrow minded and not always based on thoughtful analyzation.       

Quote from: Vicky on August 19, 2013, 10:54:13 PM
An outlook that needs to be cloned in Christian circles about the 7 times Seventy level.  The Bible is an an OK book about ancient religion, but is damned lousy as a biology text book.  It was not much good at helping out the Dinosaurs.  I draw some interesting looks when I remind people that it only mentions that Adam & Eve ONLY had TWO SONS.  That creates some problems for an anti gay stance, and --- oh well.

Vicky, you need to get back to church, girl.

Genesis 5:4 states,

And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters.

Of course, if taken literally, rather than allegorically, that opens a whole new can of incestuous worms.

The article was quite good though.

I mean no offense to anyone, but I could care less what an ancient book has to say about my lifestyle.  I'm a good (admittedly) flawed person who does their best to lead a normal and productive life.  There is no need for an edict in some holy book to warrant my right to live how I choose.  While you may disagree with my lifestyle, I deserve the same equal rights and protections that everyone else has.  You may preach against me as a person, but don't legislate against my rights because of your religion.  Why this is so hard for some to comprehend never ends to baffle me.

Also, Mr. Robertson has a history of loathsome statements.  He doesn't deserve a pass because he found the courage to say one good and decent thing.  Let's not forget his concurrence with Mr. Falwell after 9/11 about why the attacks occurred (ya know, God's wrath against the gays and the liberals).  Despicable.  Whether you like his "views" or not, one cannot condone such deplorable treason in my opinion. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I)

Quote from: learningtolive on August 28, 2013, 12:22:17 AM
I mean no offense to anyone, but I could care less what an ancient book has to say about my lifestyle.  I'm a good (admittedly) flawed person who does their best to lead a normal and productive life.  There is no need for an edict in some holy book to warrant my right to live how I choose.  While you may disagree with my lifestyle, I deserve the same equal rights and protections that everyone else has.  You may preach against me as a person, but don't legislate against my rights because of your religion.  Why this is so hard for some to comprehend never ends to baffle me.

On the other side, it can be difficult for people so brainwashed in their own spiritual conservatism that it takes some reconditioning in order for them to think outside the box. It really doesn't matter to me what people believe or not believe, as long as they respect me and are not rude to me, Christian or atheist alike.

I am not sure what it is about American culture, but in Canada religion stays in the home and at your chosen place of meeting. I myself am a liberal, progressive Christian, and I in no way think to ever impose my beliefs on others. Everyone should be given that right of belief or lack thereof.

QuoteAlso, Mr. Robertson has a history of loathsome statements.  He doesn't deserve a pass because he found the courage to say one good and decent thing.  Let's not forget his concurrence with Mr. Falwell after 9/11 about why the attacks occurred (ya know, God's wrath against the gays and the liberals).  Despicable.  Whether you like his "views" or not, one cannot condone such deplorable treason in my opinion. 

Yeah, it is very despicable. They should be ashamed of their discriminatory views. And of course, he doesn't speak for me as a Christian person, neither my Christian friends, nor my parish, nor my diocese. I know many gay and lesbian who are good people, and I know many others who aren't. I also know a few gay and lesbian Christians, and even transgender or transsexual Christians. No one, whether religious or not, should ever be speaking against something that can be shown in the entire natural world, and proven scientifically as a natural genetic part of life.

Quote from: Amelia Pond on August 19, 2013, 09:59:20 PM
Most conservative Christian's arguments are rooted in Genesis 5:2: "[God] created them male and female." This view states that one must be a certain way because one was born a certain way. If God makes humans with bodies of a particular gender, the argument goes, God did so intentionally.

This is why religions need to keep up with the times and not deny science. Even biologically not everyone is simply either male or female. The brain is what determines a person's sex, as it gets wired to be that way before birth. Most of the time it gets wired the same way as the rest of the body, but variations sometimes occur that lead to gay and trans people.