Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Okay, just something.

short notice, I goes to school pass and nobody in my class really knows im trans.
so today when we where cleaning our teacher asked me to pull out some wire and I couldn't get it cause im too daim small.
a girl from my class laughed of my jump and said. and I said. "its not funny"
she said. "well I can't get it either (she is smaller than me)
when I reply. "no but its diffrent you're a girl"

the word just pretty much got out of nowhere. what I mean is she is normal size for a girl but for a guy, well i not that tall even when im not the smallest in the class.

right after I said it it looked like she may became sad. so I imidently thought. "did I upset her? why did I even say that, I am so agenst the whole gender roles in sociaty and I just made a statement, why?

I thought if it was sexist, or maybe if she was trans but she is also very femenine but you never know after all..
-
anyway its a small episode, I dont know if I overthink it or if she even care, take in notice I dont think she had the best day today so it could also had been other things.
---
so my question, do you belive it was sexist?

Yes, no, maybe so?

It's not sexist for me to ask my husband to carry my luggage up the stairs because he has twice my upper body strength. It's not sexist for him to have me do the cooking because he can burn boiling water, lol. It becomes sexist if I ask him if he wants to learn how to cook for himself (since living of processed food and restaurants isn't cost effective and he doesn't like the way it makes him feel) when I'm not there, and he says "no, because that's your job". Or if he asks me to manage my money better and I say "but men are better at math".

YMMV, and things are different if you're trans*. It seems like binary TGs end up, whether happily or grudgingly, embodying or saying stereotypical things to help pass. It's a gray area sometimes.

No guys are usually taller and stronger than girls, I don't suspect she cares that much. Maybe you just acted too serious about it?

Quote from: Natkat on August 27, 2013, 02:00:31 PM
Okay, just something.

short notice, I goes to school pass and nobody in my class really knows im trans.so today when we where cleaning our teacher asked me to pull out some wire and I couldn't get it cause im too daim small.
a girl from my class laughed of my jump and said. and I said. "its not funny"
she said. "well I can't get it either (she is smaller than me)
when I reply. "no but its diffrent you're a girl"the word just pretty much got out of nowhere. what I mean is she is normal size for a girl but for a guy, well i not that tall even when im not the smallest in the class.

right after I said it it looked like she may became sad. so I imidently thought. "did I upset her? why did I even say that, I am so agenst the whole gender roles in sociaty and I just made a statement, why?

I thought if it was sexist, or maybe if she was trans but she is also very femenine but you never know after all..
-
anyway its a small episode, I dont know if I overthink it or if she even care, take in notice I dont think she had the best day today so it could also had been other things.
---
so my question, do you belive it was sexist?

Please don't take this the wrong way but in my honest opinion I believe that was very sexist.  If I was in her shoes and a "percieved" cisgender male told me that, I would be very offended because it implies that I cannot do something just because "I'm a girl".

It may have sounded sexist, but I know where it's coming from. Trans guys are often unhappy about not being big enough. Women, not as often.

It's not really saying that she can't do it, its what's expected. Girls aren't expected to be able to do certain things, and guys aren't expected to do certain things. It's all very stereotypical. It's comforting to me though, so don't feel too bad about it.

It was sexist.  Everyone has discriminatory thoughts, some deny it because they think it makes them a bad person to be able to admit it.  The difference between someone who has discriminatory thoughts and someone who discriminates is action.  I am not a bad person because of what I think, I'm a bad person if I act on the bad thoughts.  You did act, although it was just speaking, so not completely horrible and everybody is allowed to slip up and make mistakes, so no, I don't think you are a sexist bastard because of it.

Can't say I feel the same as the previous poster about being comforted by stereotypes, quite the opposite in fact.  Oh well.

I do agree with not feeling too bad about it, just keep trying to improve, that's all we can ask of people really.  Nobody's perfect

I'm the same as you, Mx. lol. I hate stereotypes, because so long as they exist I can't. Stereotypes also can't exist within a single person and be their deal; the nature of the beast is such that they get impressed upon everyone, no ifs ands or buts. :T

Hmm...best way to put this so no one thinks I mean I stereotype...I personally like being classified as a stereotypical guy in most senses. Like if I do something guys tend to do then its just a 'guy thing'. I like that. Or when I mostly hang out with guys and they feel that I am like them in ways because I am a guy. We all like women, video games, cars, and other 'manly' things. That's comforting to me. BUT I am not trying to say that everyone should fall into a category for gender 'norms' because there are plenty of people that don't, which is awesome. It may seem pathetic but sometimes, not all the time, I need manly things to be expected of me, and were I in OP's situation I would, because I'm trans, feel that the girl was trying to classify me with females. It might not make sense to all, but that's how I would feel. I really hope you all don't think I just believe in manly men and womenly women because I know there is so much more than that to people. I'm just saying that sometimes I like a stereotypical setting. But not always, I'd go crazy. Please no one get.offended, that's never what I intend. Just trying to explain a complicated feeling.

Quote from: TheLance on August 27, 2013, 03:20:02 PM
Hmm...best way to put this so no one thinks I mean I stereotype...I personally like being classified as a stereotypical guy in most senses. Like if I do something guys tend to do then its just a 'guy thing'. I like that. Or when I mostly hang out with guys and they feel that I am like them in ways because I am a guy. We all like women, video games, cars, and other 'manly' things. That's comforting to me. BUT I am not trying to say that everyone should fall into a category for gender 'norms' because there are plenty of people that don't, which is awesome. It may seem pathetic but sometimes, not all the time, I need manly things to be expected of me, and were I in OP's situation I would, because I'm trans, feel that the girl was trying to classify me with females. It might not make sense to all, but that's how I would feel. I really hope you all don't think I just believe in manly men and womenly women because I know there is so much more than that to people. I'm just saying that sometimes I like a stereotypical setting. But not always, I'd go crazy. Please no one get.offended, that's never what I intend. Just trying to explain a complicated feeling.

I wasn't offended.  I totally understand how you are comfortable being classified in such a way because that is who you are.  I was merely pointing out our different views, not trying to say yours was wrong or that it infringed upon mine. 

@TheLance: I get it. I think I was more lamenting the fact that the situation as it is right now is mostly lose-lose for everybody in the long run. Once we take the coerciveness out of this stuff, we can take it back and own it and be empowered by it. And the only way to do that is to make that change in our own life, I guess.  :)

You guys are great. I'm glad I didn't offend anyone.

It's generally sexist to say someone can't do something simply because of their gender.

If you had said of course she couldn't because she's short, that would only be a dig at short people. Not sexist, but then no one seems to be offended by shortist humour in the same way.

It's sexist to deny females access to some jobs just because they are female. But then again, if a woman wants to do a job often best left to males thanks to males usually enjoying a greater chance of exploiting a cliche anatomical advantage then the female better be able to match the base male level of performance. I don't want a 5 foot female fire fighter trying to save my life poorly all because of affirmative action policies allowed her to be hired. Now if she can carry an adult as well as a 6'2 male, and kick in doors, and do the job, I likely will respect her just a bit more so too for that matter as it would indicate she'd likely be that much more awesome at 6'2 as well.

it's not really sexist. it's just a frustrated comment from a short guy with height issues. if you tell her you're sorry and didn't mean it that way at all, you were just having a not too good day and not reaching reminded you of how you're lower than average, maybe she'd forgive you for something that could be very sexist if not considering the whole context. (make sure not to mention her comment, or it will sound like you're putting some of the blame on her)

you're not a sexist bastard. i don't think you're particularly sexist either, you're just struggling to live up to sexist expectancies. of course that makes it easy to slip up and express your feelings in the wrong way.

how do you think she would have reacted if you'd said it the opposite way, "but i'm a guy, i'm supposed to be able to reach (half joking sob)"?

If you are acknowledging that jumping due to being short is more socially stigmatizing for men than for women (due to how society treats them differently), then your comment is coming from a place that is authentic.  However, that sentiment may have been lost in translation since the nuance went away, and firing back was a bit of a downer.  Even if the stigma is worse for men in your culture, being "too short" is still a problem for women.

If you'd like, you can offer an explanation-apology, where clarify what you meant to say and offer an apology for how you came across.  It'll give you an opportunity to validate what both of you were thinking, and it'll be intellectually-enriching for the two of you.

Quote from: Taka on August 28, 2013, 08:29:37 AM
how do you think she would have reacted if you'd said it the opposite way, "but i'm a guy, i'm supposed to be able to reach (half joking sob)"?

I personally don't think self-referenced discriminatory remarks are any better, just because you are part of the group doesn't make it less offensive.

Quote from: Kaelin on August 28, 2013, 08:36:36 AM
If you are acknowledging that jumping due to being short is more socially stigmatizing for men than for women (due to how society treats them differently), then your comment is coming from a place that is authentic.

Yes, if you were to say society looks down on women less for being short than men, you are simply stating fact and it is not sexist.  I suppose that is what your intent was.  I think intentions behind words are more important than the actual words, so I would change my opinion from "Yes, it was sexist" to "It is likely to come across as sexist."

Discrimination is often viewed from an objective viewpoint, however it can be subjective.

It could depend on who you know, and your relationship with that person - friend, co-worker, family etc.

Back in my school days, 3 years ago now, it was a very small year group therefore we were for the most part close friends. There were racist jibes towards some people (our year group had a large number of Chinese students, as well as a black Kenyan/Swiss, a mixed race Swiss, a Muslim I am disabled, and plenty of people from Norfolk (in the UK Norfolk folk get plenty of mick taking for being farmers, having 6 fingers, webbed feet and being inbred)). There was also plenty of self-deprecating humour. I had fun about me being disabled. The Kenyan/Swiss friend took the mick out of him being black and had a laugh about Kenyans.

So there was plenty of mick taking in that group. But as soon as someone from outside the group picked on one of us our year group all defended that particular person.

So the key I think is to know your audience. The world has gone too mad if you're too PC.

I am by no means saying that prejudice of any kind is ok though. Take the objective approach and be careful, I'm just saying that there is a subjective approach as well. But I would say that's strictly within small boundaries.

No, I don't think you are sexist. Take it from me, if you are going to be stealth, meaning presenting as your birth gender, you will be seen as that gender. Even all the little physical femme things I do, when I am a guy, the world sees me as a guy. It doesn't bother me. You should probably feel bad maybe about getting an attitude with the girl because really hon, if you aren't out she really doesn't know any better. Me personally, I would feel worst about that. About what you said though, nah, not sexist to me at all.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on August 28, 2013, 08:49:14 AM
I personally don't think self-referenced discriminatory remarks are any better, just because you are part of the group doesn't make it less offensive.

Yes, if you were to say society looks down on women less for being short than men, you are simply stating fact and it is not sexist.  I suppose that is what your intent was.  I think intentions behind words are more important than the actual words, so I would change my opinion from "Yes, it was sexist" to "It is likely to come across as sexist."

that was pretty much what i tried to say.

and the way i worded the question is actually a stab at society's sexism rather than any specific person, for anyone who reads it right. do you think you can see it that way if you read it once more knowing my reasoning? (i'm not always too good with communication, it's difficult to know how much of my thoughts another person can read between those lines)


one thing i feel is interesting is that some things i say as a woman are perfectly ok, but as soon as i say the same things as a guy, i'm taken for a male chauvinist. it's really weird to know that if they knew i'm "actually" a woman, they'd have a completely different reaction to what i typed. i don't get it, that's really sexist the way i see it.

Okay thanks for answering, most people think I was sexist some don't, sure up to each person.

Quote from: Taka on August 28, 2013, 08:29:37 AM
it's not really sexist. it's just a frustrated comment from a short guy with height issues. if you tell her you're sorry and didn't mean it that way at all, you were just having a not too good day and not reaching reminded you of how you're lower than average, maybe she'd forgive you for something that could be very sexist if not considering the whole context. (make sure not to mention her comment, or it will sound like you're putting some of the blame on her)

you're not a sexist bastard. i don't think you're particularly sexist either, you're just struggling to live up to sexist expectancies. of course that makes it easy to slip up and express your feelings in the wrong way.

how do you think she would have reacted if you'd said it the opposite way, "but i'm a guy, i'm supposed to be able to reach (half joking sob)"?

I don't feel my comment where based on fustration or having a bad day, I actually had a pretty good day yesterday and I didnt feel angry of her laughitng even when it fact I would like to be a few cm bigger, it just somehow slipped out, so I only really thought of it because she had this look who seamed sad but I am not sure if it was cause of me. I  dont want to make people sad or angry so that my point in asking. being trans you also easly think of other things and somethimes who may not be an issues and some could its a strugle figureing out those things somethimes, so I also thought if it just all in my head of having those gender-noticions you could say which she may not even consider, or it there really where something to it.

I get your sociaty point, I dont' think I am the type of person who easly get offended by words but by meaning behinds it. but laterly I started thinking more about the meaning of words because im not always sure. My class is pretty hetronormative, guys talking about hot girls, calling each other gay" you know, the typical school life which in many ways is very diffrent from my everyday life even when I sure also do live in a hetronormative world and also would say im binary and prejugding to a point (im human after all)

but yeah theres sexism and homophobia words in the class, you can decide to play along or not, but its not always clear if it just fun or serious, or even if it just fun im not sure if I just want to think "sure hetrosexuals live like this" and not mind or go deeper into it. I don't mind people calling me gay, but I can mind other being called gay if im unclear about there intention in the word.

It's abit of a mind challenge and I don't know if anyone will get what I mean by this wierd text, but bottom line is it wierd being "normal looking, but having another belife or mindset than the outsiders expect you to have, if it makes any kind of sense? im still trying to learn how to be myself without being too strange for anyone or doing something with people would consider harmfull, exept for when its BS.

think it will give me a good opotunaty to learn.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 28, 2013, 09:17:30 AM
No, I don't think you are sexist. Take it from me, if you are going to be stealth, meaning presenting as your birth gender, you will be seen as that gender. Even all the little physical femme things I do, when I am a guy, the world sees me as a guy. It doesn't bother me. You should probably feel bad maybe about getting an attitude with the girl because really hon, if you aren't out she really doesn't know any better. Me personally, I would feel worst about that. About what you said though, nah, not sexist to me at all.

I guess you could say im stealth since none of the students know i'm trans, but I don't really think of me as being or wanting to be stealth.
I don't feel it nessesarry to know im trans for anyone but if someone asked me about trans thing I could also tell them if it where relevant, I just don't really feel it relevant to talk to my classmates I dont see outside the school and which I only have known a couple of weeks about this, it may cause distance or it made make them feel im very interesting but deep down I dont want people to get to know me for being trans but as being a person they like to be around.

i'm not angry on her, or on the whole situation, I just got concern if what I said made her sad, and the reason.

easiest way to find out is to apologize to her and ask if you hurt her. if you're sincere, you may get an honest answer. maybe she wasn't offended and just got one more drop added to a hidden social anxiety for all you know. in the end, if you really want to know, you have to talk to her.

Quote from: TheLance on August 27, 2013, 02:41:07 PM
It's not really saying that she can't do it, its what's expected. Girls aren't expected to be able to do certain things, and guys aren't expected to do certain things. It's all very stereotypical. It's comforting to me though, so don't feel too bad about it.

It wasn't to imply what girls or guys could do, I hate those labels and in this context it would had been totally ridiculous since we talk about pulling out a wire. my comment where based on the fact that She as a girl is normal size for the other girls around her, and me as a guy is abit smaller. but I see the point of it comming out the wrong way.

TAKA
I don't know if I can talk to her without putting to much into it, being honest we dont talk much together and I do think even if she mind I might put more thought into it than she do. I guess if we get in a simular situation again I will try to go more into detail if she actually feel hurt or not and apoligyse if it the caise".

it's possible to apologize without putting much into it if you nearly yelled or gnarled it at her. that's something you could apologize for, nobody likes being barked at. but if you didn't... maybe wait till you have a chance to get to know her better, you might even happen to mention some of the things that were behind the comment in a conversation (without mentioning the comment). things can resolve themselves just from getting to know the other person a little better. maybe she already forgot about it.

now that i think about it in danish, it suddenly sounds more offensive. urgh, i should stop thinking...

Quote from: Taka on August 28, 2013, 12:20:36 PM
it's possible to apologize without putting much into it if you nearly yelled or gnarled it at her. that's something you could apologize for, nobody likes being barked at. but if you didn't... maybe wait till you have a chance to get to know her better, you might even happen to mention some of the things that were behind the comment in a conversation (without mentioning the comment). things can resolve themselves just from getting to know the other person a little better. maybe she already forgot about it.

now that i think about it in danish, it suddenly sounds more offensive. urgh, i should stop thinking...

yes but I belive
it just a matter of mind, if I where native english speaker I guess anything in english might been more offensive to me IDK?

I didn't put it out in a aggrasive way it just somehow got out abit strange.

Quote from: Natkat on August 28, 2013, 01:00:06 PM
yes but I belive
it just a matter of mind, if I where native english speaker I guess anything in english might been more offensive to me IDK?

I didn't put it out in a aggrasive way it just somehow got out abit strange.

so that wouldn't work. hopefully not too much damage is done.

danish is closer to norwegian, kind of the same language. it's easier t identify when hearing things in one's own language, that's probably why everything sounds so much worse. i never have too much trouble speaking about myself in english, but as soon as i get to norwegian, i just clam up and have no idea how to explain it in a way that isn't too close to myself. if that made any sense... saami is a funny language that can't be compared, it feels good to speak it, so i have a feeling whatever i speak about in saami, it will get right. or at least honest and down to earth with no chance of hiding the heart of the matter with al kinds of unnecessary linguistic ornamentation.
talkingaboutsomethingthatdoesntmakesenseagain

Quote from: Taka on August 28, 2013, 03:42:02 PM
so that wouldn't work. hopefully not too much damage is done.

danish is closer to norwegian, kind of the same language. it's easier t identify when hearing things in one's own language, that's probably why everything sounds so much worse. i never have too much trouble speaking about myself in english, but as soon as i get to norwegian, i just clam up and have no idea how to explain it in a way that isn't too close to myself. if that made any sense... saami is a funny language that can't be compared, it feels good to speak it, so i have a feeling whatever i speak about in saami, it will get right. or at least honest and down to earth with no chance of hiding the heart of the matter with al kinds of unnecessary linguistic ornamentation.
talkingaboutsomethingthatdoesntmakesenseagain

I get what you mean, I got the same, I also notice one of my friends start to speak english is she becomes really really shy about talking about something.

No not really, it's kind of something, perhaps its stereotypical or something. But it is expected that guys are taller and stronger. It's not always true of course. The other thing, if she doesn't know you're trans, it's kind of a bit more that way. It's also more understandable that you might feel that way. Were her feelings hurt? As a female bodied person, when I was presenting female I didn't care about my size. Nor is something like 5' particularly unusual for a girl, it's not uncommon in males, but more outside the norm. Now I feel a lot different about my size-- though really I know there are a lot of short guys. I wouldn't have thought anything at all about it.

I agree that everyone harbors stereotypical and even supremacist and bigoted thoughts. But I think it's kind of overthinking in this case. But perhaps useful in being aware of them.

--Jay