Susan's Place Transgender Resources

BATHROOM WARS: TRANSGENDERS GET FLUSHED (http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/bathroom-wars-transgenders-get-flushed/)
John Aman, 8/24/13

MIAMI, Fla. – A well-organized coalition of pro-family and civic organizations in Miami-Dade soundly defeated a measure that would have given transsexuals access to public restrooms and locker rooms used by the opposite sex.

The Miami-Dade Commission gave initial approval in May to adding "gender identity and expression" to the county's anti-discrimination law by an 11-1 vote but the measure stalled after intense lobbying by opponents – led by the local Christian Family Coalition.

Bill sponsors withdrew it on August 14 because they lacked the votes to get it through committee.

The victory in liberal Miami-Dade "is really landmark," said Christian Family Coalition executive director Anthony Verdugo of the win 36 years after singer Anita Bryant led the successful repeal of Miami-Dade County's homosexual rights law.

"When we caught wind of it, we had three weeks to organize," said Verdugo. His team exhaustively researched the issue, developed a communications strategy and filled a hearing room with nearly 300 opponents when the commission took testimony on July 8.

The move is in the opposite direction to that which many cities, counties and states these days are moving.

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This is sad, I'll never understand the hate or wanting to oppress a particular group of people.  :(

The editorial comment suggests something that may, or may not, be true.

Hate or oppression are not necessarily motivating factors.  It could simply be that some people are uncomfortable or modest.  That suggestion is demonizing.

I can tell you, as someone born male-bodied, we showered after P.E. and sporting events, and I was always uncomfortable.  Had a female-bodied person been allowed in the showers, I am not sure how I would have reacted, before I was 15 or so.

A reasonable solution would be to have private, rather than communal showers, but retrofits are expensive.

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
It's sad how proud those people seemed to be of managing to segregate people :o

Jamie D: some white people are also not comfortable using the same bathrooms as black people or Asian people. Is that any different...?

It is different because race is immutable.  You are born with your genitals, but they can be surgically modified.

This is a hot-button issue, and we are 0.3% of the population.  I am not sure that society would be accepting of communal showers.  Education takes time.  Racial segregation took many decades to conquer.  Gender biases are largely unplowed ground.  We don't even yet have the LGB community with us on this one.

My personal belief is that we need to try to build consensus with willing minds, until we have a political and sociological majority.

I use the woman's room all the time and nobody cares. I don't get so much as a second look. So a lot of this is academic for me at least. But I do understand that i have passing privilege and feel horrible for my trans sisters who may get harrassed in the women's room. For an FTM, as long as they present male, no one will care or dare say a thing. So it's more of a concern for trans women. I think. I could be wrong so please don't attack me if I am.


As far as showering, I don't think a trans woman should until post-op. Heck, I wouldn't even want to. I loathe my penis.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 07:28:13 PM


As far as showering, I don't think a trans woman should until post-op. Heck, I wouldn't even want to. I loathe my penis.

Not trying to get controversial or anything but what about non-op trans women?  Should they be ashamed of their bodies?  Should they have to continue going to the male showers?  What's really fair?

What worries me is about the political backlash.

Is our society, as a whole, ready for unisex communal showers?

We could look to Japan and sentos as a historical example of where that is accepted.

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 07:55:52 PM
If you look at michael jackson then race isn't immutable :D on a more serious note if you invest enough money on peroxide (or dark pigment/tanning salons and so on) and surgery it really isn't, and in a few more years you can switch your skin colour etc like you switch clothes. what then? basing acceptance on something being 'immutable' is just right unless you're saying being trans is a matter of choice and thus not worthy of acceptance or consideration which I know you're not saying.

As for non-ops... I think if they're unwilling to get rid of the non-female or non-male parts then they shouldn't go to female or male bathrooms. in that case unisex bathrooms only. fair is fair, right? I don't see that as segregation because public showers are not just about gender, they're also about feelings of comfort and security and not fearing for anything and like it or not, a penis goes into a vagina and thus a penis in a public shower space full of vaginas creates discomfort, no matter what's attached to it. so it's a compromise. in a bathroom no one has to see your genitals, you have the privacy of your own stall so this is not an issue/applicable~ this is not an easy issue though so I don't think there is one correct answer~ I just wanted to share my thoughts :)

Food for thought.  Thank you.

A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 07:33:14 PM
Not trying to get controversial or anything but what about non-op trans women?  Should they be ashamed of their bodies?  Should they have to continue going to the male showers?  What's really fair?

I never said non-op women should be ashamed of their bodies. Please do not put words into my mouth. If you have a penis, in a place where everyone is naked in female showers and you have a penis, that is an issue. What about the cis-women? Do they not have the right to feel safe. Not everyone, and hardly anyone, understands trans issues. Would something happen? No, most likely not. But appearance tyrannizes over reality. In this case, quite literally. Bathrooms are a completely seperate issues as no one is naked or sees you genitals as Glitterfly so aptly pointed out.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
I never said non-op women should be ashamed of their bodies. Please do not put words into my mouth. If you have a penis, in a place where everyone is naked in female showers and you have a penis, that is an issue. What about the cis-women? Do they not have the right to feel safe. Not everyone, and hardly anyone, understands trans issues. Would something happen? No, most likely not. But appearance tyrannizes over reality. In this case, quite literally. Bathrooms are a completely seperate issues as no one is naked or sees you genitals as Glitterfly so aptly pointed out.

I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth that didn't match what you had intended.  That was definitely not my intention.  I agree that having a penis in the women's showers is an issue.  I don't think it should be.  Why should cis-women feel unsafe because of an organ?  Is it because they may have been sexually assaulted by someone who happened to have one?  What about men who have been sexually assaulted by someone with a penis?  Shouldn't they have equal rights as well?  Should all showers just be private because someone might feel uncomfortable otherwise, or should people that feel uncomfortable be the ones themselves to avoid these types of situations?  You can't please everyone and it makes sense to try to please the majority by dividing naked situations by genitalia.  I guess I just feel marginalized myself being a minority.  I don't personally have the desire to shower naked with other women or any desire to not shower with men, or vice versa, I just could care less, its just a shower.  So maybe I'm not really arguing for anyone that actually exists but maybe they do and just don't have a voice. 

Quote from: Jamie D on August 27, 2013, 07:51:19 PM
We could look to Japan

Where public baths were a hot-button issue for centuries, and where they've settled on gender-segregation (in time or space) as the solution to some very real problems with prostitution.


I've never been comfortable with open showers, myself.  I could probably make myself do it now - I've worked hard to overcome my body-shyness - but I'd rather not have to.


Also, WND.   ::)  Yeah, don't expect sympathetic or even polite treatment of any trans*stuff from them.


Now what sucks with this whole issue is, say we get these laws passed.  What's keeping a few perverse people from taking advantage of them?  This isn't a strong argument logically; there's nothing really keeping peepers out of restrooms right now.  (Or outhouses.  YUCK!)  But it only takes a handful of anecdotes to build a smear campaign.

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.

It has been a number of years since I have traveled in Europe.  I do not recall mixed-sex/gender communal showers in any of the hostels I stayed.  Of course, I preferred the hotels whenever possible.  I was primarily in the UK, Spain, Portugal, and Germany.

Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
A lot of European countries have co-ed open showers.  I wouldn't say that Europeans are overly disturbed people or that they are somehow negatively affected by seeing organs that they themselves don't have.  It think it must have something to do with religion.  Generally it's the more religious countries that seem to have the greatest discomfort with nudity.  And America, I think its just because nudity is sexualized by the media so much.

I don't think I'd have a problem seeing people with the opposite genitalia if I purposely went into a co-ed shower/bathroom. I am someone who's not disturbed by seeing people of the opposite sex and am certainly not disturbed by trans* people. But, I think the problem here in the USA is that there aren't much co-ed bathrooms or showers, so when someone goes in who clearly doesn't pass, people wonder "what's their purpose in coming in here?" Obviously, not everyone is knowledgeable on trans issues, and we've all heard too many stories of people getting raped at rest stops, etc. etc. that everyone has their guard up. I was once in the ladies room at a train station, it was empty except me, when suddenly, someone bursts in to the stall next to me, and in a very deep voice kept saying "too tight, too tight". It was really weird and I immediately though "oh my god, there's a man in here" -- it kind of freaked me out and I hurried out of there. Why? not because I am necessarily afraid of men or their parts (turns out it wasn't a man, but a heavy smoker) but because I am just so used to the gender segregation that it just immediately made my brain put up the alarm. So, it's not really religion that's the cause, just our sense of normalcy and instincts which cause people to get concerned when something is out of the ordinary. Edit to add: of course this doesn't make something right, as someone above made the analogy to racial segregation, white women in the deep south during Jim Crow laws would've been scared or even got violent if a black woman walked into the white restroom.

Of course, religion can play a role in some cases. Some people are just closed-minded bigots, and there's also religions that do have strict gender segregation (like Chassidic Judaism, Shakers, and some followers of Islam. . . ). People who follow strict gender segregation wouldn't be going into co-ed bathrooms or showers, and they'd probably just leave (or perhaps chase someone out of the place) if someone with non-matching genitals came into a shower or bathroom, and would likely be opposed to universal co-ed bathroom legislation. These people have rights too, the issue here though is that so does trans people, and it's difficult to find the right balance at times in our society.

Are we painting religious people as "close-minded bigots"?

I don't think I would be happy to read irreligious people are "open-minded bigots."

I think my comment was more directed at the charged term, "close-minded bigot."

I never thought that invective was a good tactic to use to make friends.

Well, I usually try to avoid strong language, there's plenty of non-religious people who are closed minded. But I was more thinking of Westboro Baptist Church, which I unapologetically use that term.

Im all for bathroom rights.. but Locker room not so much unless there's facilities where.. you know one can change without showing all.

I dont think that a transwoman who passes well is going to be any more comfortable for anyone, especially her in either locker room. Men really aren't going to be cool with it, and I dont think that showing your parts in a womens locker room is going to go over either.

Quote from: Kelly-087 on August 30, 2013, 03:40:29 PM
Im all for bathroom rights.. but Locker room not so much unless there's facilities where.. you know one can change without showing all.

I dont think that a transwoman who passes well is going to be any more comfortable for anyone, especially her in either locker room. Men really aren't going to be cool with it, and I dont think that showing your parts in a womens locker room is going to go over either.

Agreed. I actually think the California law might go a bit too far in that direction.

My biggest problem with showers was always gang showers. Not safe there for even regular folks. I would not be that hard to make single stall showers like they have at the Y. Locker rooms would not be as much of a problem.

This one really has me thinking and ready solutions are not jumping out.   I am working to get public accommodations or restrooms to be unisex when newly built.  I now confidently use the women's restroom.   However, as a non op transgender person I have reluctantly given up on the idea of ever going to a public pool for swimming.  Here most places have that large single sex shower area and no amount of tucking will reliably hide my penis.  The last thing we need is more people fearing us and this educational process could take a long time.  Till then I swim in the river.

Even public pools around here have several individual shower stalls.

I don't care if I don't pass, I'm going swimming in the pool.  Its just something I love doing too much.

Good for you Alice, I like your spunk but, will you shower in the guys or gals place?  With my new boobies showering with the guys could get ugly and I am not deliberately looking for trouble

I'm not sure.  I guess I'll figure it out when I think it'll be an issue.  Most likely never the women's

After jumping in the ocean for a swim, isn't the showers at the beach just to rinse off? So, can't you just rinse off in your swimsuits and not have to worry about what the other ladies in there are thinking?

We don't have oceans in Alberta.

I have been swimming in the ocean here on the Oregon coast but without a wetsuit we don't last more than five minutes.  It's cold!  I do consider getting a one piece woman's swim suit but not ready to invest until I have more time for the HRT to work the magic. 

My experience with women's bathrooms is quite the tale. I have actually been confronted by security outside the women's room of the Providence Place Mall. They marched me through the mall to the security office. They made me fill out forms and take my wig off for a picture to identify me if I came back to the mall. They banned me for a year. This was over 5 years ago, so I don't know how they respond now. I know they were trying to embarrass and humiliate me the whole time, but what they didn't know was that I have no shame when it comes to crossdressing. Nothing can be said or done to me which could cause the slightest bit of embarrassment. I'm kinda weird that way. I want everyone to know I'm different and I expect them to treat me that way. I have long accepted the fact that I will never fit in.

Generally, I don't use the women's bathroom unless I am wearing my wig and makeup. Sometimes, I just don't care about being passable. The family/handcap restrooms provided at some places are a good alternative.

As far as communal showers and locker rooms, I have had experience in this area as well. I used to be a member at the YMCA and ofc was forced to use the mens locker room. This did not stop me from working out in women's clothes and changing into women's attire after showering. Eventually, I was able to convince them to allow me to wear a women's swimdress in the pool. I explained that I was uncomfortable exposing my bare chest while swimming and they agreed a tshirt was not a proper alternative. I would not feel comfortable exposing my naked body in a women's shower, but I would be okay with wearing a towel for modesty and using a shower stall for privacy.

Hey Kara welcome aboard.  I like your spunk girl but that experience at the mall was way over the top.  Water under the bridge perhaps but, some states and jurisdictions now have legal protections for us and I trust you will not suffer fools like that again.
In Portland Oregon we sport the bumper sticker slogan of "Keep Portland Weird" and I am delighted to know you are doing your part to help.
Passable is just not important to me.  It held me back a long time and now I recognize it as letting others decide my fate, NO WAY!
I feel we do the culture a favor by increasing exposure to the truth of living in a diverse world.
Thanks for helping out.

Hugs

Hi Kara, it's nice to see another Rhode Islander. :)  I didn't know PPM security was so strict on bathrooms.

Quote from: Tessa James on September 01, 2013, 12:57:19 PM
Hey Kara welcome aboard.  I like your spunk girl but that experience at the mall was way over the top.  Water under the bridge perhaps but, some states and jurisdictions now have legal protections for us and I trust you will not suffer fools like that again.
In Portland Oregon we sport the bumper sticker slogan of "Keep Portland Weird" and I am delighted to know you are doing your part to help.
Passable is just not important to me.  It held me back a long time and now I recognize it as letting others decide my fate, NO WAY!
I feel we do the culture a favor by increasing exposure to the truth of living in a diverse world.
Thanks for helping out.

Hugs

I feel pretty much the same way in that I don't quite care for passing for passing's sake.  I do want to look female, but its just for me and if I think I look female and nobody else does, why should I really care?  I do admit it is nice to hear when others do think that I pass, but its not my main goal. 

Kara, I think its awesome that you are so confident and are not held back by that experience.  I hope to be able to dress the way I want, even when going swimming, so its nice to hear stories of it being accepted even though you are forced to use the men's change room.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 01, 2013, 01:10:12 PM
Hi Kara, it's nice to see another Rhode Islander. :)  I didn't know PPM security was so strict on bathrooms.

I am not from RI. I am from MA. Providence is only 40 minutes away.

The man who led the fight to stop the trans rights law quoted in the original article. Christian Family Coalition executive director Anthony Verdugo. made the following statements about transsexuals over the last several years:

http://cfcoalition.com/full_article.php?article_no=249

http://www.cfcoalition.com/full_article.php?article_no=498

(There are a lot more of his statements for anyone to evaluate. They are all in the same vein - transgenders are pedophiles, are "confused", want to exploit real women, etc.)

I think it is rather safe to say that Anthony Verdugo is no friend of anyone who is transgender, unless you are willing to deny yourself and live as the gender into which you were born. That's his solution and he's the man who led the charge against transgender people in the original article.

I find, at least nine times out of ten, an act of discrimination is fueled by fear. In this case, and in many cases like it, the fear that conservative, Christian-minded individuals have about the idea of themselves, or others, going to "Hell" for doing something a closed-minded upbringing writes up as a "sin". And some of them take it one step further, and assume that if they think one small aspect of public life has been affected in the aforementioned way, then /obviously/, their children, and the children of other like-minded individuals will grow up, possibly wanting to experiment with life in the shoes of the opposite sex/gender.
And, oh my god! They may be right! Because if all the laws in our day-to-day lives actually /did/ work out to be that much more accepting of these sort of things, and people really didn't express such enormous bigotry towards those they perceive as "different", then they wouldn't be so inclined to drive themselves away from even the most playful of thoughts on the matter.
Like the idea that if homophobia didn't exist, straight men wouldn't be so damned afraid of being more (publicly) emotionally involved with their guy friends. I understand that last one has many levels of reasoning behind it. But you get where I'm coming from.

Chris.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
What about the cis-women? Do they not have the right to feel safe.

the rights of the minority should not be subject to the whim of the majority.

Should we not allow gay people to shower in the same spaces in case the straight cis people feel threatened by a gay person checking them out?

If people don't feel safe amongst a diverse group of people, segregating the people they are not comfortable with is not the answer. Setting trans-rights as opposites to women's rights is a dangerous thing to do. I am a woman and I am sure as hell not going into a mens communal shower, no way, uh uh. To do so would sacrifice my safety for their comfort.

I think unisex locker rooms and showers would be better than the current separate female and male facilities. I might initially be shy about exposing my genitals to a woman in such situations but have always been somewhat uncomfortable with exposing them to other men in the male facilities. I would not have a need to treat the women as sexual objects.

Ken, I'm going to reply politely since you are at least here and trying to be accepting. I assume this comment only is directed at male to female transitioners such as myself, as obviously most people don't think a female to male person is going to be "harassing" the men in the men's room. :) Think about how hard it would be for you to put on a wig maybe and paint your nails and put on a dress and walk into a crowded mall ladies room. And why? Just to harass some random women? Surely there are easier ways to do that if that's your bag. And that doesn't address people (also like me) who have had surgical correction to what amounted to a genetic/birth defect (being born with a male body). What I'm trying to say is that you'll never know about those people who are passable transgender women because by definition they are invisible. And as for those people unfortunate enough to not pass as they would like? Well, they just need to pee. That's not harassing, that's just doing what the room is made for, and either way most of us haven't been able to use the men's room for years. Truth of the matter is for every natural-born female harassed by a transgendered women in the ladies room, ten thousand transgendered ladies get harassed by natural-born females. My two cents...

This whole situation is stupid. They say a person with penis HAVE go to the men's room and a person with a vagina HAVE to go to the women's room. The most common line of reasoning I see for this opinion is to prevent rapists men from dressing up in women's clothing and and entering the women's room claiming to be transgender. I guess that means any potential rapist can forgo the costume and walk right in claiming to be a trans man  :eusa_eh:

The dumb thing is that in all cases I've heard of cis men going into/hiding in women's rest rooms and/or attacking women... they don't bother getting dressed as women anyway. No doubt there are cases but I haven't heard them.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 16, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
The dumb thing is that in all cases I've heard of cis men going into/hiding in women's rest rooms and/or attacking women... they don't bother getting dressed as women anyway. No doubt there are cases but I haven't heard them.

Exactly. On close scrutiny their augments don't make any sense what so ever. They are merely instruments to cover up and justify their bigotry.

Quote from: kentovellc on June 16, 2014, 03:08:25 AM
I am not against transgenders. It's fine if we share bathrooms as long as they won't harass anyone.

Statistically, it's not the transgender men and women that do the harassing in public bathrooms.  It's the cisgender (identify as their birth gender) people that harass transgender men and women in the bathroom.  It's we who are more at risk trying to go to the bathroom.  And the majority of the world seems to feel this harassment is okay, because we're transgendered. 

There is no other option for us either.  Very few places have gender neutral restrooms.  We either use the bathroom of our birth gender and get harassed and assaulted, or we use the bathroom of our identity and get harassed and assaulted.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on June 16, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
Statistically, it's not the transgender men and women that do the harassing in public bathrooms.  It's the cisgender (identify as their birth gender) people that harass transgender men and women in the bathroom.  It's we who are more at risk trying to go to the bathroom.  And the majority of the world seems to feel this harassment is okay, because we're transgendered. 

There is no other option for us either.  Very few places have gender neutral restrooms.  We either use the bathroom of our birth gender and get harassed and assaulted, or we use the bathroom of our identity and get harassed and assaulted.

That is why I feel that we should have only multi-user unisex public restrooms with adequately private stalls. It would be the norm and all would be included. It would also be more difficult for a pervert as it would be less likely for them to be alone with an unsuspecting victum.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 16, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
The dumb thing is that in all cases I've heard of cis men going into/hiding in women's rest rooms and/or attacking women... they don't bother getting dressed as women anyway. No doubt there are cases but I haven't heard them.

With gender separate restrooms it would be more likely that they could be alone with an unsuspecting victum. There would be a greated degree of protection with multi-user unisex restrooms.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on June 16, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
Statistically, it's not the transgender men and women that do the harassing in public bathrooms.  It's the cisgender (identify as their birth gender) people that harass transgender men and women in the bathroom.  It's we who are more at risk trying to go to the bathroom.  And the majority of the world seems to feel this harassment is okay, because we're transgendered. 

There is no other option for us either.  Very few places have gender neutral restrooms.  We either use the bathroom of our birth gender and get harassed and assaulted, or we use the bathroom of our identity and get harassed and assaulted.

This, it really is THAT obvious... really just boils down to good old-fashioned intolerance.

This song comes to mind >-bleeped-< it  by genitalia  political correctness is just bull>-bleeped-< look at those coaches teachers ministers  and priests who inappropriately touch or sexually abuse  children

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 27, 2013, 07:28:13 PM
I use the woman's room all the time and nobody cares. I don't get so much as a second look. So a lot of this is academic for me at least. But I do understand that i have passing privilege and feel horrible for my trans sisters who may get harrassed in the women's room. For an FTM, as long as they present male, no one will care or dare say a thing. So it's more of a concern for trans women. I think. I could be wrong so please don't attack me if I am.


As far as showering, I don't think a trans woman should until post-op. Heck, I wouldn't even want to. I loathe my penis.

I have to say that as a transwoman, I am very much lucky to "pass" exceptionally well. I never have any questions as to my gender and at worst someone might say voice is a little off. However, I have heard so many things about who some of my not very lucky transwomen who have been harassed...it's so stupid. I just wish people would leave us alone.