Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm having a disagreement with my spouse and I feel pretty strongly that she's arguing from misinformation. I'd appreciate the input of those more knowledgeable to help me resolve this.

I would like to start HRT ASAP. I have an endo referral in the works and, assuming that leads to a px, I intend to fill it. My wife, however, is pressing me to delay for a year. Her priority is moving back to the big city and she is very concerned that by transitioning in a conservative, small town, we will be ostracized here and I'll never get the decent job references I need to get out.

My proposed compromise is start HRT, but delay any kind of workplace transition until we can move (a year, maybe two). She's convinced that this isn't possible. I suspect strongly that it is. I'm 32 years old and not exactly starting from the feminine end of the spectrum.

So my question is this, how long could I reasonably continue to work in male mode while on HRT? At what point would things simple become impossible to hide?

Maddy

You are not going to like this answer but - your mileage may vary. You might never know how susceptible Your body will be towards estradiol so... Given that You admit that Your starting point is not very feminine and You absolutely do not in tend to start extensive weight loss programme, then that might buy You some time. If You do not proceed with other explicit and visual indicators, like plucking out eyebrows to the extend when they are unmistakably female, wearing make-up everywhere etc - then only boobies might be the ones which could betray You. As for me - I am 35 now - and I dont know how much time I have left. I have heard that 5th month is sort of major landmark after which everything just spirals up... At the moment, I am often being asked to reveal my secret how I suddenly look 5-10 years younger and how I managed to loose a lot of weight fast. One friend of mine got an idea that I might be having cancer, because I keep loosing weight, falling out of cloth sizes and my face suddenly looks narrower. I sometimes get confused looks from complete strangers, but honestly, I do not make much effort to pass as a male - I am somewhere in the androgynous style now. So, people do notice, but most probably they wont get an idea what is going on. As long as You can provide decent explanations - You should be able to pull this off.. plus, those who see You everyday are the ones which are the least likely to see Your changes.

Hi Maddy,

Good question and you know a big part of the answer is going to be predicated on what your individual responses are to HRT and self acceptance.  Many in transition here complain or worry about not making progress fast enough while we have a current sister who is even thinking about a breast binder since she is getting a generous response to HRT and is not out at work.  The local wisdom speaks to looking at your mom or sisters for a biological prediction.
On the emotional front I am transitioning in a very rural small town area and have had very supportive responses or indifference.  My fears were way exaggerated after decades of repression and reinforcement.  I also started out thinking and actually pledging to my wife that I could stop, delay or turn back.  Oh girl was I naive!  My lightning bolts of self recognition were powerful and I quickly found myself completely at peace with transitioning and absolutely disinterested in ever going back into that dark closet.  The effects of HRT on your emotional world, well?
It seems so wonderfully different for many of us and for the non binary or non op transgender person there may actually be greater latitude in presentation and expectations.  Look at the profound interest here in  "do I pass" or before and after pics.  It really seems tough to predict what will happen for you on your individual life path.
That your wife and you are still together and planning a future together is promising.  Are you in a corporate arena that recognizes work place protections and rights?  Do you belong to professional organizations as an employee or volunteer that could be sources of positive references?  Friends or connected family members in your network?  I once convinced myself I could not be transgender because I was also so far from the feminine end of the looks spectrum.  You may be surprised by how little that matters to you down the road.

Big warm Hugs

FPWADR

It depends what prep work you have done.

For instance, I have been getting laser for over a year now on my face to remove a very heavy facial growth.
Still some left but mostly gone. Having facial hair will prolong you to be able to present male even when on HRT.

Presenting as female will be easier with it gone however.

No one has said anything to me about the diminishing facial hair so it's interesting what people notice.
Before and after pictures would be very noticeable.
My therapist has not said anything but I will be pointing it out next week.

After yesterday therapy session HRT is a bit closer and form what I have seen some can pas prior to starting while others find it difficult even after 6 months.
There was a post here by Sarah Anne and she made it only 3 months or so after starting. Sarah has made wonderful progress.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,124374.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,124374.0.html)

Hope this helps

Jen

it depends.....some m2f's on hrt can only keep passing as male a few months, others a year or more, and some continue to pass as male for the rest of their lives despite not wanting to.....

Depends on what kind of male are you trying to pass as a normal straight male? At eight and a half months on hrt I couldn't pass as a straight male if my life depended on it.
But I'm not trying to pass as one either and I kind of help it along. The physical things are kind of easy to hide but the emotional and mental changes are not as easy to hide and they will start showing up when you least expect it.
I would say you really don't have much time to hide theses changes a couple of months maybe but they will eventually get people talking about you. At this point I don't even know how to pretend to be a male anymore. I really don't know how men think anymore I didn't really understand before but now I'm clueless to how to behave like one now.  ;)

Well I'm a year FT.

As Jenny mentioned it also depends on how you present, and of course how quickly your body changes.

I had to start wearing a bra for comfort and protection after about a month on HT, difficult to hide at that point

Kia Ora,

I know of a Dutch trans-woman who had her surgery and was also on HRT for twenty years but still lived and worked as a male(her family and friends outside her work knew) but it would seem her work colleagues were none the wiser...However she's since started to live openly as a female...

So as others have already mentioned YMMV (It also depends on how good you are at "camouflage" )

Metta Zenda :)

Thank you all for your replies. I can't say they leave me feeling terribly confident about the idea of delaying public transition.

Maddy

I started HRT at 32 as well. In the end, I had to come out at work sooner than I had planned, because I was fielding too many questions and my breasts were just about to the tipping point where it was binding (a big no-no for developing boobs) or admit to their existence.

I went on low-dose HRT in February of 2010, and had to confess at least to my supervisor and big boss by May. (The actual transition at work ended up being early June, but by then my immediate coworkers had mostly figured it out.) If I'd waited to August as I had intended, I would have found myself both needing to hide nearly D-cup breasts and read more than half the time as female even in male clothes [by strangers] for at least 4 months.

So I'd say there's a huge "it depends," of course, since everyone's body chemistry and responsiveness is different... but you probably should have at least a backup plan in case hiding it for a year doesn't work. I could *maybe* have pulled it off for six months, with increasingly extreme measures. I would not recommend assuming that it's absolutely going to be possible to wait a year, much less two, in a situation where people guessing/gossiping has a high risk of an awful outcome.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 31, 2013, 06:23:08 PM
If I'd waited to August as I had intended, I would have found myself both needing to hide nearly D-cup breasts and read more than half the time as female even in male clothes [by strangers] for at least 4 months.

Family genetics suggests that things won't be quite as pronounced. Still...

Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 31, 2013, 06:23:08 PM
So I'd say there's a huge "it depends," of course, since everyone's body chemistry and responsiveness is different... but you probably should have at least a backup plan in case hiding it for a year doesn't work. I could *maybe* have pulled it off for six months, with increasingly extreme measures. I would not recommend assuming that it's absolutely going to be possible to wait a year, much less two, in a situation where people guessing/gossiping has a high risk of an awful outcome.

Thank you for being frank. I feel well-advised. (+1)

Quote from: Fairy Princess with a Death Ray on August 31, 2013, 02:30:57 PM
I'm 32 years old and not exactly starting from the feminine end of the spectrum.

So my question is this, how long could I reasonably continue to work in male mode while on HRT? At what point would things simple become impossible to hide?

Maddy

Well I'm around the same age and I am been pretty responsive to hormones but I also most likely have some type of condition as I had small boobs and a butt and before HRT I basically looked like a dyke. So, IMO, a lot of where you end up depends on where you start. But that isn't a rule.

I grossly miscalculated just how long I would have before anyone noticed stuff based on internet postings of potential progress and based on my age, 30. I thought i'd have ample time, a year, maybe more before anyone noticed. By three months, I passed if I shaved and was being she'd in male clothes. Now, at six months, i pass as one of two things: a woman or a trans woman. So now I'm stuck with the unenviable task of telling people my status.

But, honestly, could it be your wife doesn't want you to take hormones?

Thanks for the rep change. :)

Scariest part? My mother's a 34B and super slender, no curves. I had ZERO idea I was gonna (apparently) take after women on my dad's side of the family, most of whom I'd never seen when young.

Good luck.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 31, 2013, 06:29:01 PM
But, honestly, could it be your wife doesn't want you to take hormones?

Yellingly, screamingly, beggingly, bargainingly so  :-\

Quote from: Fairy Princess with a Death Ray on August 31, 2013, 06:31:25 PM
Yellingly, screamingly, beggingly, bargainingly so  :-\

This as you know will be a problem. If she is this unaccepting I think you need to realise the chances of the relationship being maintained could be very slim.

Quote from: Cindy on August 31, 2013, 06:40:40 PM
This as you know will be a problem. If she is this unaccepting I think you need to realise the chances of the relationship being maintained could be very slim.

I think you're right.

She tells me that she wants to stay together and work things out. However, every attempt that I make, however subtle, to push the boundary on presentation comes at the cost of hours or negotiation, reams of negativity, and counterarguments of specious validity fires as from a gattling gun. Her idea of work things out seems to be "wear me down until I change my mind." Which can't happen.  :-\

Maddy

I'm 50 so i'm on the "mature" side of the equation. I started with low dose HRT around 46 and after several years i've got solid A cups and my butt has filled out some. I was told for years that I have a "baby face" and that is where I see most of the changes, and aside from boobs that's the place where I think that other people will see changes in you.

If i put on makeup i undoubtedly see a girl staring back at me in the mirror. I do my boy routine in the morning I see a guy there, so my face has changed a lot. Its like a previous poster said - people that see you every day will see the changes in your face and may start commenting on the fact that you "look better" or that you've lost weight or ask if you are sick, but it's my opinion that no one will likely catch on to whats really happening. And if someone does get nosy just tell them that it's a private medical matter and you'd rather not discuss it.

I think you'd probably be able to go for quite a while with a male hair style and with some undershirts or baggy shirts at work, but your mileage may vary!

Quote from: Eva Marie on August 31, 2013, 06:54:04 PM
I think you'd probably be able to go for quite a while with a male hair style

Actually, this brings up an important factor. I have virtually no hair. I hate being bald, but even with finasteride, it should help keep me passable, right?

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 31, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
She's being selfish. She doesn't want you to be happy, she wants to hold on to her 'property' with all she's got. I don't think that's healthy. You might have to consider the possibility that the relationship can't continue... But based on what you said I think that thought might already be at the back of your mind.

Sorry if I sound unduly negative.  :-\

Last week, she explained that she considers my transitioning a form of suicide. After that, I'm honestly having trouble finding reasons to give her the benefit of the doubt. :(

This is one of the main reasons I have not been in a relationship since my partners accident in 2007, it's just too hard for them to cope, if it lasted long enough.

I didn't want to hurt someone I might care about.

It's difficult being alone but at least I can be me.

No it's not Zapp. I never cared about him.

Quote from: Fairy Princess with a Death Ray on August 31, 2013, 07:08:01 PM
Sorry if I sound unduly negative.  :-\

Last week, she explained that she considers my transitioning a form of suicide. After that, I'm honestly having trouble finding reasons to give her the benefit of the doubt. :(

I can tell you without the slightest bit of doubt, being unable to be comfortable in your gender presentation can lead to suicide.  It is something we see too often.

Becoming your authentic self is more like a re-birth.  You and I are not this collection of flesh and bones.  That's just the vesicle.

It sounds like your S.O. doesn't want to lose the image of you.  But what happens if you lose yourself?

Work was the hardest, for me.  I went boy mode for years through various methods, finally binding.  Boy did that hurt.  But it turned out OK, and my boss has been great about it, I am transitioned at work 100% now.

I think the main thing for you should be to keep talking with your wife, us here in the forum, your medical and counseling people.  That way, you can walk forward with intelligence and (hopefully) with grace.

I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

Quote from: Cindy on September 01, 2013, 12:05:35 AM
I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

I don't blame her. I have a lot of compassion for her situation. Spouses have genders, too. I just wish things weren't so charged :(

Quote from: Glitterfly on August 31, 2013, 06:58:51 PM
I just have to say... to me it speaks of an extremely sick culture if losing weight gets people asking if you're sick... especially since in America the people asking that would most likely be overweight (=in poor health themselves) just something that confuses me...
ps. in Emily's picture she looks really healthy and she could lose another 10 lbs and still be healthy and nowhere near underweight... so why would people think she's sick... :o

Well, I am from Europe actually :). But thanks for the compliment. The reason people think that I might be sick... when I was trying to live as a guy I really did some effort, so I was usually going for L size clothes - and some of them did not fit because I had wide shoulders and long hands (well I still have long hands, lol). Most of my bulk - I was comfortably within 77 kg and sometimes going a bit overweight to 83 kg was muscles and only then fat.  Some day I will make my before and after post and You all will see.. I was not tall, but broad fecker with quite pronounced facial features and dress style with an attitude "Dont even think about it". So, now when I got down to 68kg and S/M size clothing, and lost about 1,5" from each side of my shoulders... People who had not seen me for a year - they did notice. But they had no idea what is going on. So, if they have curious minds they are going to search for some explanations - and because changing my gender would be the last thing they would ever think (told You, I was quite badass...), so they figure out all those nasty theories :).

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 01, 2013, 04:46:06 AM
Oh, okay :o oh and I'm sorry I didn't mean to assume ^^; Ireland? hey, do you think that your 'machoing it up' might have been an overcompensating attempt at fitting into the male gender role before you realised it wasn't your gender? I read someone's intro or a writing of their journey and their self-realisations or something like that here where they said that was the case for them ~and I really think it's probably pretty common~

Nope, I am from Latvia :). Huh, You are absolutely right - it is not even common - it is sadly, but typical. Ever since I was self-conscious I knew that something was wrong and I desperately wanted to be perceived as a girl by my parents. That never worked and when my puberty was over and my system was full with testosterone and I got tired of being an exercise for boxing practices, I thought that if I cant be that frail and petite princess then at least I can play my part in the fairy tale and become that knight in the shining armor (as I read recently – one of the epitomes or even the Holy Grail of masculinity). Pretty typical, though. I never was macho (all my female guts detested that), but rather the chivalry type. I also learned horse-riding, archery, sword and stick fighting, hand-to-hand fighting and using small firearms. And since I never backed down if I saw someone in trouble - so I was lucky to live out most of those fairy tale fantasies as far as they could be applicable in 20th century...
But that all was just living a big lie and gender dysphoria came back – as it always does. And this time I surrendered and did not fight back. So, at the end of the day, I still might get lucky and wear one of those nice princess dresses – I only need to drop another 10-15 lbs and loose some upper body muscles. And if I will get in trouble some day – I still have that ,,knightly" training ;).

I will add my little opinion here. Techically you could pass for male permanently even on HRT, remember your bone structure wont change etc.. So HRT wont make people go "wow you look like a woman or is it just me?" There are many different people in the world and we all respond differently, I mean if you already look fem then well yea HRT could ruin you passing as male.

Then there is age, tone of voice and manner. If you act like a man, sound like a man and appear to be a man you will be man to others. No one honestly will intensly look at you on some weird point out the t-girl challenge or anything so you shouldnt worry. I started HRT at 16 its been 3 years now but 2.5 on E and well tbh I look male, very broad shoulders and a handsome face  ;) so no one guesses otherwise. I mean HRT only gave me breasts and wide hips not much else this is how it works you never know what you'll get.

So all you need hide is your breasts and dont act paranoid then you will be just fine passing as male.  :) This also assumes you don't wear make up etc in man mode.

Note: not trying to say you will always look male but hey HRT isnt magic just hormones dont let yourself believe they will make it all better.

Speaking as someone who has a good 15 years of hormone therapy under my belt I can say this. If you have long hair and no facial hair then chances are pretty good you can be read as a chick on the streets. The effects of hormones on the face are lost if you still have a large amount of facial hair.

You can take all the hormones you want, but if your name is Ralph and you go to work every day and that's what everyone calls then nothing is going to change no matter how many hormones you take. If you want to get caught then you can definitely get caught and find yourself in a tough position. If you want to conceal your situation then in my mind it can be done for a long time but just remember that people are going to start asking strange questions when they cannot gender a person properly.

What I noticed in my own case is that the electrolysis and at that time I was just starting hormones was making me look younger. I started to look as if time was going backwards for a while. In fact some coworkers were starting to ask questions about what was wrong with me. That's when I knew my days were going to be numbered and I needed to get going with full time.

As far as location to transition, what I have found over the years is to never judge a book by its cover. Hatred or revulsion of trans people does not fall neatly along political or racial lines. For example, I know some flaming liberals up here in Massachusetts that would make a southern racist blush. What matters is the quality of people in your life and your immediate circle such as a work.

In short what I am trying to say is, once you hit a certain critical mass of change, then out on the streets people will start calling you miss because they perceive you to be a miss. At work they will still call you Ralph and he because you still use your current name and ID. You can carry on that charade as long as you want. Once critical mass of change is there, then you need to reevaluate your timetable. A year might be doable, it might not.

So here is my two cents! People see what they want to see. If you present as male and to the person they onlly ever knew you as male, then you will be treated like a male. People that seee you all the time just don't notice appearance changes for the most part. Currenty I am 1.5 years on hrt. I only work as a male, and a few familly members don't know yet. You said that you arent starting in the female range, that will prolonge your passability (as a malle). I started hrt when I was able to pass from the very beginning. Even in public, as a male I get only maled. As a woman I get only miss and ma'am. Personalllly I have no idea how people don't know but, if they aren't looking for female quallities they won't find them. As I believe it was heather that said the mental and emotional changes willl be the hardest to kkeep under wraps. Good luck with you S/O.
<3 Liv

:disclaimer: this was typed on my phone, sorry for errors.

I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

Quote from: Tessa James on September 01, 2013, 11:25:48 AM
I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

This 100% ^^

Quote from: Tessa James on September 01, 2013, 11:25:48 AM
I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

This is right on the money. I am faced with some tough decisions based on me doing boy mode so well for so long.

It's pretty unpredictable.  Some people have a window of only a few months, some have an indefinite window.  It all depends on your body type, your height, your chemistry, how masculine acting you can be if you want to... so many things really.  My personal experience was that while I could pass as a woman almost immediately, 3-4 years later I could still pass as a feminine man if I wanted.  Why?  Because I am tall and I haven't had the best breast development in the world.

Your hair makes an enormous difference (same with beard shadow) so if you are bald you could probably pass as male for however long.  People will see a male there if you have obvious facial hair, no matter how feminine everything else about your presentation is.  If you use a very deep voice, it will be nearly impossible for people to see a woman there.

With regard to your wife, she is going to feel like her husband has been lost to oblivion and will go through a grieving process accordingly.  You can't protect her from this or talk her out of it.  You know your old persona did not reflect the person within, but to her it was a real person, whom she fell in love with, and realizing that he is going away is going to be very hard for her.  You can mitigate her pain by taking things slow and being patient with her, you can do things (like not make some common silly mistakes) to not make it worse than it has to be, but you can't save her from her grief.  You can stock up on ice cream, you can give her many hugs, you can be emotionally supportive, let her cry with you, let her yell at you, tell her you wish things could be different, things like this can help her get through it.  Whether you play the role of the perfect spouse through this phase or not, how your relationship will look on the other side of it is anybody's guess.  Be prepared for the worst.

BTW, sometimes the worst outcome looking forward is the best outcome looking back.

Quote from: Cindy on September 01, 2013, 12:05:35 AM
I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

This is understandable completely. I've vowed not to make any permanent, permanent changes (yeah... I'll be doing Laser) until my relationship is sorted and my health in order. If that never happens it's as much my fault as hers. Right now I'm begging just to remain friends. She's holding her love as a bargaining chip... and refuses to have anything to do with a man "prancing around in dresses" (her words). She has started offering that in-private is OK ... which was something she was adamantly against not so long ago.

Unfortunately, as the OP, I know I'm destined for at least HRT. It's a question of when, not if.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 01, 2013, 11:37:50 PM
Does everyone in Latvia speak decent English?

It seems Latvians definitely do have certain reputation... But if You are from Ireland, then I am not surprised about this. No, I am not surprised at all... Not the best bunch of our guys You are having there, but at least they are not hanging around here anymore :P. But there are a lot of decent, hard-working and intelligent people too - its just that several black sheeps are making up that ill repute for the rest.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 03:27:42 AM
Oh no I'm not from/in Ireland xD I was just guessing you might be :D tbh it was mostly because you used the word 'fecker' xD

yeah usually the bad seeds are also the loudest most visible...

Actually, I learned that word - fecker - from my Second Life acquaintaince who is Dutch :).

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 03:34:16 AM
haha xD that's interesting~! ^^

World is really getting smaller in this millenia, is not it? ;)

Quote from: Just Maddy! on August 31, 2013, 02:30:57 PM
I'm having a disagreement with my spouse and I feel pretty strongly that she's arguing from misinformation. I'd appreciate the input of those more knowledgeable to help me resolve this.

I would like to start HRT ASAP. I have an endo referral in the works and, assuming that leads to a px, I intend to fill it. My wife, however, is pressing me to delay for a year. Her priority is moving back to the big city and she is very concerned that by transitioning in a conservative, small town, we will be ostracized here and I'll never get the decent job references I need to get out. My proposed compromise is start HRT, but delay any kind of workplace transition until we can move (a year, maybe two). She's convinced that this isn't possible. I suspect strongly that it is. I'm 32 years old and not exactly starting from the feminine end of the spectrum.  So my question is this, how long could I reasonably continue to work in male mode while on HRT? At what point would things simple become impossible to hide?
Maddy

Well the answer is that you won't know until you try it.  But look at what the F2M people do and learn what techniques they used to disguise their femininity.

RE: Wives... remember, they're grieving. I'm certain my wife has entered the bargaining phase of grief. She's trying to win me back by holding back her love -- about the only thing she can hold from me. We're much closer now than we were a few weeks ago and I'd absolutely love to stay with her -- even if it's an upstairs/downstairs platonic (and open) marriage (at which point I'll find a bed). Even separation as friends would be better than what she wants right now.

Quote from: Joules on September 02, 2013, 05:58:03 AM
[...]

I hope that I can feel enough comfortable with my degree of transition to proceed with living as a female.  I genuinely dislike living as male (although I don't seem to have the same degree of dysphoria that many transgenders feel).  It becomes a question of whether I would feel more comfortable in that manner, or if I could cope with the occasional odd look or unkind comment.

I am already encountering a few slight difficulties.  I've been (blessed?cursed?) with significant breast growth very early in HRT.  So far, I'm sure I can hide them once the cooler weather starts, but until then I have to struggle, and occasionally cook in several layers of clothing.  I've thought of binding, although the consensus among our fine FTM friends is that binding is really a bad idea if you are planning to keep and display your breasts.  Binding will disfigure breasts.  It could be a significant challenge to continue to hide breasts if I choose to stay in male mode.  I can't bear the thought of breast reduction surgery, but it might be the only realistic option.  Hope I don't have to make that choice someday.

Other minor issues: 

-Growing longer hair can be a challenge.  It is most difficult when it is only partly grown long, that awkward in-between point where one is just shaggy and unkempt.  I would have to choose and/or accommodate longer hair in permanent male mode.  Hair growth on E is a bit slower, and hair is softer and finer.  I really like the look and feel of it, but it doesn't help to reinforce a masculine presentation.

- My facial features are starting to change.  The overall shape is different, my skin is softer and the texture is changing.  Perhaps the most striking difference (to me anyways) is the look in my eyes.  I'm starting to look female!!  That one can be hard to hide - heavy-framed glasses or a permanent frown help a lot, but are no fun.

I'm sure there are many other changes that could be telltale when presenting a false male.  However, that is essentially what I've done my whole life, it's not like it will be any harder, just different.

From what you say of your wife, I would have to join the majority opinion here and say her motives do sound a bit suspect.  I hope you can maintain both a successful, happy marriage and a gender transition.

You sound like me... about 3-9 months from now (if my personal timeline is accurate). I hate my male body and want breasts... I will start HRT at some point. On the other hand, my dysphoria is nowhere near what I see online. I would never contemplate suicide, but I now remember my teenage dysphoria, or at least some of the actions I took because of it ... and it was that bad. I personally think that by hiding it for many years, most of us find a coping mechanism that works temporarily. Mine lasted through 10 years of happy marriage. Since coming out, my dysphoria has grown and I've made some minor changes that I know are not enough for the long term.

And, though I want it, breast growth is my fear. I think I'll be forced out at work pretty quickly, based on family size. I know that's not the only factor, but I have the build from my mother's family and they were all quite blessed in that department. I also have some gynecomastia, so I wonder if that will kick off growth more quickly.

Growing long hair is something I tried a couple of years ago (another cry for change, I think). People notice, but it's just people noticing hair... no big deal. If you're already presenting female, I can see it being more difficult... look for transitional hair styles and get a stylist. I plan on doing that in a few months when I have a bit of growth. The best part is that nobody will notice or care at work - since I've done it before.

Laser is my other concern. I go for my consult in 2 weeks. I think that will be more noticeable, though not for a while. The worst I really expect, though, is a comment/question about close shaves. Maybe I'll say I've started learning the straight razor ;)

None of it is HRT, though. . . I'm afraid to start, but also wish I could start sooner than later. In my case, I totally understand all the reasons to wait (weight, health, marriage).

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 08:55:00 AM
Health? I would say the older you start the worse it is for your health... Mental and physical~

This I can speak to, at least. Age is important, but there's not much difference between say, 35, 36, or 37. There's a huge difference between starting this at BMI "Obese I" (where I was), "Overweight" (where I am), and "Normal" (where I'm going). There's a huge difference in taking HRT alone, and taking it with diabetes and high BP medications. I am young enough and (now that I'm out) driven enough to reverse the diabetes (my A1C is now < 7 - and that was after 2 weeks of diet). I hope to (I'd almost say expect to, but I can't predict that) come off meds in 3 months... definitely by 6-9 months. My GP will be shocked at the changes when he sees me next (2.5 months from now). I told him about my transgender issues.

So yes, age is a concern, but it cannot be a primary variable unless we're talking 5-10 year waits. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know!


Your other question, I can't really speak to directly. I'm in the middle of the situation and I have no idea if I'm doing the right thing, but one doesn't just get up and leave a wife and kids. I hope to work through this and separate as good friends. I want more than that... she wants more than that... and neither of us can have what we want... and I also worry about when/if I switch to liking boys (eeeeew says the pre-pubescent girl in me  :laugh:). I still want to be friends, close friends, and parents together. I am working on that, and making some progress. It is important to me, and may keep me sane once I'm totally on my own. I don't have super high expectations (not any more... before I told her, sure). She won't become a lesbian for me. I have a feeling I might not be one after - though I don't know you can predict that.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 08:55:00 AM
I can't understand it at all :o For me it's always been a really black-and-white thing: either it's important enough for you that you are willing to leave all, no matter the cost, and commit fully, or you might as well not even start (this is the part that isn't meant to be offending, that wasn't me telling anyone that's how it must be for them, just me showing how I think about it) I'd like to understand the reasons for someone to "semi-commit" a little better if possible~ ^^

I wouldn't consider it semi-commitment. I don't believe in half measures. Call it taking it slow - which, if possible, I think is generally recommended. I am fully committed... but realize there are things I personally need to get in order before I start. I think it's the same for those who start HRT and want to hide it for a while. They've started their journey, but they are preparing their lives to cushion the social blow. That's what I'm doing now, before HRT. I'm still a woman inside... I always was... I just didn't acknowledge her until recently. Now she's coming to the foreground... she's the same person, but changes need to be made. It's easier for those not married, without kids, or without 20 years of adult life built up. At the same time, most of us transitioning now have it easier because we've put walls in place that can be broken down slowly as we transition.

Again... it's all my opinion. I'm no expert - though in some ways I'm trying to learn and become one. If you disagree, especially if you know I'm wrong... please let me know! I have a very narrow view of this world right now.

Simple answer to your original question. If you have balding on your head in a male pattern and facial hair (or shadow) you will pass as male indefinitely. If your co-workers see you everyday, they will possibly not even notice. If they do, it will most likely be the texture of your facial skin that they point to. Just say you're using skin creme. You can go on hrt and still be a boy. Some people do this. All choices are valid, if we can abide their consequences.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 08:55:00 AM
Health? I would say the older you start the worse it is for your health... Mental and physical~

Without offending anyone, may I ask something? Why transition in secret? Is it out of fear of commitment? Is it because it's too hard to admit to yourself that sometimes you have to let go of one commitment while taking on another? Is it just because of financial reasons (keeping a job, not wanting the publicity of a discrimination lawsuit) or because the idea of letting go your whole life (job, wife, friends) feels emotionally too much to bear? I'd really appreciate answers, I can't understand it at all :o For me it's always been a really black-and-white thing: either it's important enough for you that you are willing to leave all, no matter the cost, and commit fully, or you might as well not even start (this is the part that isn't meant to be offending, that wasn't me telling anyone that's how it must be for them, just me showing how I think about it) I'd like to understand the reasons for someone to "semi-commit" a little better if possible~ ^^

I don't know how old you are Glitterfly, but suspect that you are pretty young, a time of life when many, if not most, people tend to reason a bit in black and white terms. I also suspact and hope that over the course of your life you will come to realize that in reality black and white situations rarely, if ever, exist. This, by the way, extends to making snap judgements concerning the nastiness of  spouses who are not delighted to discover that the man they married is now to publicly become a woman. 

So, when you talk about leaving all, no matter what the cost, just how far does that extend in your mind?  If living your true gender means losing absolutely everything else that counts for you, do you think it will lead to any sort of happiness or in your mind is doing this an end in itself, independently of the happiness or unhappiness it might bring both to you and the people you love?

You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?

Best regards.
Donna

Living on a male-exclusive floor in my dorm, I've been quite curious about this very question myself.  I guess I'll get back to you in five or so months :p

Quote from: Donna Elvira on September 02, 2013, 02:19:32 PM
I don't know how old you are Glitterfly, but suspect that you are pretty young, a time of life when many, if not most, people tend to reason a bit in black and white terms. I also suspact and hope that over the course of your life you will come to realize that in reality black and white situations rarely, if ever, exist. This, by the way, extends to making snap judgements concerning the nastiness of  spouses who are not delighted to discover that the man they married is now to publicly become a woman. 

So, when you talk about leaving all, no matter what the cost, just how far does that extend in your mind?  If living your true gender means losing absolutely everything else that counts for you, do you think it will lead to any sort of happiness or in your mind is doing this an end in itself, independently of the happiness or unhappiness it might bring both to you and the people you love?

You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?
You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?

Best regards.
Donna

Best regards.
Donna

Glitterfly, you are intriguing and I second Donna's inquiry.  When I started with a therapist one of the toughest questions I wrestled with was " just how much of living like a man  are you willing to give up to transition?"  In my opinion that question becomes exponentially more difficult when one has decades of previous commitments and profoundly deep relationships, not just baggage.  Still, for me the answers became obvious that to maintain my sanity and mental health I was going to be open, out and live well through the emotional pain.  This is just one reason I am so very grateful for our predecessors who paved the road, became mentors and publicly share their life story.  It further encourages education and readily available resources so that young people and parents know about options and alternatives.  It seems so much better to transition young but that's the perspective from a senior and we certainly hear about teenaged would be transitioners who are thwarted by family.
Back to the thread question, it seems to me that what is reasonable for some to consider is relative to their goals and comfort levels.  I was in a hurry but feeling more calm now and wanting to be mindful of the drama we inhabit.  Being genderqueer I believe we expand the definitions of cultural gender identity and gender roles.  I didn't want to exchange "acting like a man" for some pale imitation of others stereotypes about what is an appropriate woman.  I have had no end of well meaning folks who think I should be wearing granny dresses to my toes and a giant shopping bag.  I think they confuse me with their grandmas;-)

Quote from: Tessa James on September 02, 2013, 02:54:39 PM

Glitterfly, you are intriguing and I second Donna's inquiry.  When I started with a therapist one of the toughest questions I wrestled with was " just how much of living like a man  are you willing to give up to transition?"

That's easy: every single aspect. Living as a man turned me into a drug addict. The only time, other then now, that I was okay in life and doing well was when I have been transtioning. From 2004-2008, I basically lived and dressed like a woman. I worked for a woman's magazine, I dressed like a woman, and I was in a relationship with a woman who considered me a woman. She used to say and TELL people that I was her girlfriend and that I a woman with a birth defect. Everyone referred to me a dyke or girl, all the time. It was great. The first time I dressed up with her and her friend, her friend couldn't get over how much I look like a woman if I just put on makeup. She couldn't believe it. we became great friends. But I wasn't on hormones. She thought was going too far. She broke up with me because she dcided she wanted a man. Her words. The fact I couldn't stop crying only reinforced her view of me.

And now, I am giving up all my male privileges, and am treated like a woman by everyone. I have a BF and life has never been so good. My family is becoming more accepting and with a bit of luck, tomorrow I will again be working for a women's magazine.

ow long you can present as male depends on where you start. if you are androgynous and have little to no male features, the answer is not long. if you have male features and are not andro, prolly forever if you present well enough. But that isn't a certainty either.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 10:53:42 PM
I like turtles and you should too.

Try not to take this the wrong way but, I do notice that a lot of your posts seem to have a "This is the way I see it, now prove to me how it can possibly be any different for you and make it a good reason or I'll keep questioning it" kind of feel to them.  This may not be how you actually intend to come across but as you may have noticed by the type of responses you get that it does come across that way at least that's how I have seen it.  Do with that what you will.  Not saying you should change, unless you want to see a different type of reaction to your posts.  I know you mean well in the end so please don't take offense at this or take it that I misinterpret your intent, I know it is not as it seems.

Thank you Glitterfly.  you acquitted yourself very handily in obliging my request to know you better.  You have done nothing that requires an apology IMO.  Please do indeed continue to be your true self.  I find you are a thoughtful correspondent here and don't feel at all bad about a sense of challenge or inquiry that makes me think something through.  Keep it up girl.
I am delighted to hear about your determination and your recognition of support from your mom and dad. 
We are indeed fortunate and Amazing!

Hugs

I can't do it any more.. I tried a little while ago and it was a complete failure.. lol

I don't move right, I don't talk right and I don't act right..

I wish total stealth would be an option for me, but given my age, contacts and professional details - I just dont see that possible. But I see the point of complete stealth though in my opinion it is rather important from the point of view of personal safety rather than a way "to please others". Keeping Your job as long as You can - if You have any doubts about getting discriminated after coming out, being able to establish support systems (I was oh so naive when I thought that I will be able to pull this off on my own - that was before I actually started the HRT...) . But this topic is viable for me too, because where I am working – half of my colleagues know about me (but not all of them know that I am on the HRT), the others – majority have no idea. We interact on a daily basis and I am not getting impression that they are confused or smth. Yet, I changed my presentation a bit and all I am seeing now in the mirror is a girl (I need to update my avi, because that is past atm :P ). So I dont know how much time I have, though I still look good in male waisted jacket... but then I take it off and...

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:58:35 AM
Alice, I don't intend to come across like that and of course I don't want responses where people feel questioned in any negative way :(

I don't personally believe it's a bad thing to come across that way. That's what smart people do... they have a view of the world based on lots of different stimuli and they can, at best, provide a description of their worldview. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't accept your views.

The difference, to me, is one of grief. If I were treated like I'm treated right now on a normal day... one where I wasn't out to myself, out to her... and if it happened often, not due to some "bad day" she might be having... then yes - I should probably leave my wife. At the same time, I know she's losing a husband, losing a chance at another kid (yeah - she's crazy... wants 4... I think that had some part in my trigger to come out - the dysphoria was always worse when she was trying or pregnant). She has legitimate grief, and she's working through the stages (quickly, really... which I'm glad for). I did some things wrong when I came out to her,  but I'm trying to fix that - I reaffirm my love. I tell her I'm not going anywhere and that the marriage will go at her pace. I still don't think it will work, but I am putting all of my hope in remaining friends with her - perhaps even making an apartment in our house to avoid financial difficulty.

If you say "I Do" to someone, you're saying it for life. I know it doesn't always work out for life - I'm not saying never divorce - but "for life" means you should make the effort to work things out during these times of crisis. I will never stop loving my wife - I've told her that - but together or separate, we have a difficult road ahead. If we separate under hateful circumstances the road will be that much worse for us both.

I also will never stop loving my kids. They are young and resilient. Our separation will hurt them, but a hateful separation will destroy them. If their father dies in their minds (which will entirely be influenced by their mother), they will very likely have horrible lives. My wife and parents are of the opinion that if they grow up with a father who became a woman their lives won't be worth living. My wife and parents will choke the kids with their own anxieties and fears if I don't fix that problem too.

And I'm a woman... that's the easy part to fix - and it's certainly not easy.

Three things to fix and all of them mountains... I can see how some would run away. If I weren't a woman with strength, I wouldn't have any of these problems, and I would have slowly killed myself in a stagnant relationship. If I weren't strong enough to handle this, I'd never have come out about it. I only wish I were stronger earlier in life.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 02:58:25 AM
kabit, wow... that puts a different spin on it~ :o thank you for explaining... complications like that are hard to understand if you haven't experienced them yourself, and I can't even begin to imagine how children would complicate things~ all I can say is I agree that it wouldn't be good if you had a bad falling out and they were left without contact with you and/or being poisoned by their mother's resentment for you... You are strong for trying to balance that all out and for that you can be proud~ trying your best is all you can do, no one can expect more from you~ ^^

Thanks :'( :)
It is hard, and I wish I could have done this earlier... but that wish is the same as the ones I've been making all my life.

Quote from: kabit on September 03, 2013, 02:52:14 AM
I don't personally believe it's a bad thing to come across that way. That's what smart people do... they have a view of the world based on lots of different stimuli and they can, at best, provide a description of their worldview. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't accept your views.

The difference, to me, is one of grief. If I were treated like I'm treated right now on a normal day... one where I wasn't out to myself, out to her... and if it happened often, not due to some "bad day" she might be having... then yes - I should probably leave my wife. At the same time, I know she's losing a husband, losing a chance at another kid (yeah - she's crazy... wants 4... I think that had some part in my trigger to come out - the dysphoria was always worse when she was trying or pregnant). She has legitimate grief, and she's working through the stages (quickly, really... which I'm glad for). I did some things wrong when I came out to her,  but I'm trying to fix that - I reaffirm my love. I tell her I'm not going anywhere and that the marriage will go at her pace. I still don't think it will work, but I am putting all of my hope in remaining friends with her - perhaps even making an apartment in our house to avoid financial difficulty.

If you say "I Do" to someone, you're saying it for life. I know it doesn't always work out for life - I'm not saying never divorce - but "for life" means you should make the effort to work things out during these times of crisis. I will never stop loving my wife - I've told her that - but together or separate, we have a difficult road ahead. If we separate under hateful circumstances the road will be that much worse for us both.

I also will never stop loving my kids. They are young and resilient. Our separation will hurt them, but a hateful separation will destroy them. If their father dies in their minds (which will entirely be influenced by their mother), they will very likely have horrible lives. My wife and parents are of the opinion that if they grow up with a father who became a woman their lives won't be worth living. My wife and parents will choke the kids with their own anxieties and fears if I don't fix that problem too.

And I'm a woman... that's the easy part to fix - and it's certainly not easy.

Three things to fix and all of them mountains... I can see how some would run away. If I weren't a woman with strength, I wouldn't have any of these problems, and I would have slowly killed myself in a stagnant relationship. If I weren't strong enough to handle this, I'd never have come out about it. I only wish I were stronger earlier in life.

Thank you Kabit for giving us an understanding of your profound and honorable commitments.  That is very moving to me and it seems Miss Fixit is on the case. :)

I'm learning that the biggest change in transitioning is the loss of male privilege. I've been complaining to friends that men have a problem with what I'm doing, but it's dawned on me, that I'm being sent to the "girl's" table, so to speak. Men are far more comfortable speaking amongst themselves-with their own kind about they're two favorite subjects, sex, and aggression (politics, war, Fox news, etc.). Now, completing my fourth month on HRT, I'm looking more female than male and my exclusion is far more acute. Like genetic women, I'm reading way too much into the actions of my former male friends. Men, being two-piece puzzles, aren't that complicated and it's really my appearance. At first I could't wait to get breasts, grow my hair out, and wear fem clothing. Last night I wore jeans, and my leather flight jacket to cover my chest. I slicked back my hair, wore no makeup, and decided not to shave, to hang on the my last vestiges of maledom as I took my on, and off girlfriend to dinner. It didn't work, after staring at me over her Miso soup, she looked scared. Back at my place, with my two dogs jumping over me, she stared at my chest. Finally she said what I knew was on her mind. Despite her insistence she was comfortable with my transition, she doesn't want to date a woman. Nor do I. I got up, threw on a summer dress my friend's had bought me for next year, and walked her to her car. An hour later, while dealing with a family member in the hospital, I received a text from one of my closest friends, a female doc that said she was afraid to be "collateral damage" should someone challenge me for using the beach bathrooms on our long walks. Fear, difficult for me to understand, but very real.mAs much as we don't want to believe, appearances matter.

Time to start living outside of the margins-Living a lie is no life, at all-Zoey Tur

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 02:58:25 AM
kabit, wow... that puts a different spin on it~ :o thank you for explaining... complications like that are hard to understand if you haven't experienced them yourself, and I can't even begin to imagine how children would complicate things~ all I can say is I agree that it wouldn't be good if you had a bad falling out and they were left without contact with you and/or being poisoned by their mother's resentment for you... You are strong for trying to balance that all out and for that you can be proud~ trying your best is all you can do, no one can expect more from you~ ^^

Hi Glitterfly,
First of all, no my post yesterday was not really disapproval even if I admit to finding some of your judgements rather harsh. Actually my thinking was probably very close to what  Alice said to you in her very eloquant response to your questions regarding my post.

Beyond that, the quality of the exchanges on this forum varies a lot. Many people are simply passing through, just getting a few answers to some fairly typical questions. Others stay around longer and the level of communication tends to become somewhat deeper and more intimate. Quite a number of real friendships start here. This however is a two way process and actually can't happen if it's not a two way process. As Alice said very well, in many of your posts you gave the impression that you were asking other people to justify their approach to life, transition etc. without saying anything about yourself. Personally I would not be happy in engaging in an exchange with anyone on such an asymmetrical basis and imagine it might just  be the case for quite a few others. They can of course always refuse the discussion, but as you will probably have noticed, people here are generally very open and try to be helpful. Why? Because that is very much the culture of this forum and that's what makes it such a pleasant and interesting place. Like any successful collective endeavor, it does however require that people adhere to a few basic rules, whether they be implicit or explicit.

Lastly, a few reactions to what you did write about yourself and thank you for doing that, it really did help. It is the last paragraph that caught my attention most:

"Happiness is not tied to having people or things or not having them. Happiness comes from within. If you are unable to be happy without a car, you won't be happy once you get a car. Or a job, or a spouse. If your happiness is conditional to other people, as soon as you lose them, you lose your happiness forever. Happiness should come from within you and extend out to others, not the other way around :) If you are truly happy, there is nothing outside yourself you cannot let go of and still be happy :) Transitioning is internal, other people are external. There is no choice, it is very clear: if you cannot be happy within, you cannot make anyone else happy. Therefore loyalty to self must come first, loyalty to others must build on it but not conflict with it. "

I would love to have the opportunity to talk to you about this when you are forty, fifty or older ie. when you have had some real experience of life, maybe had a wife (husband) and children, known what it is like to be completely destitute, seen others suffer because of you etc. etc..

Also I have a wife, children, friends to the extent that I have important relationships with these people but not for a second do I consider them as possessions like the car you mention straight afterwards. I actually find it quite amazing that you would write a car, or a job or as spouse as if all of them were on the same level. (My turn to be amazed by some of the things you say... ;).

There are effectively hermits who can live as I think I hear you saying ie. totally detached from everything in this world. They are however an exceptional breed so another question, are you a hermit?

If you are not a hermit have you every been involved in a serious relationship with anyone other than your parents ie. a long term relationship of real interdependance?  Do you have children? Have you ever worked in a real team environment? 

I imagine you have heard of Maslow's pyramid describing the hierarchy of human needs from physiological through to self actualization. It sounds like you put all the empasis on self-actualisation but that might just mean that the other, lower level, needs are already taken care of, something you take for granted without even thinking about it. I really don't know but I'd be curious to know  more about your personal situation.

I'm actually not a great believer in the "hierarchical" nature of these needs and can easily imagine people putting self actualization ahead of some of the more basic needs.  So, taking another angle on this question, Tony Robbins, who some may have heard of, describes 6 basic human needs as follows:

1.Certainty/Comfort. We all want comfort. And much of this comfort comes from certainty. Of course there is no ABSOLUTE certainty, but we want certainty the car will start, the water will flow from the tap when we turn it on and the currency we use will hold its value.

2.Variety. At the same time we want certainty, we also crave variety. Paradoxically, there needs to be enough UNcertainty to provide spice and adventure in our lives.

3.Significance. Deep down, we all want to be important. We want our life to have meaning and significance. I can imagine no worse a death than to think my life didn't matter.

4.Connection/Love. It would be hard to argue against the need for love. We want to feel part of a community. We want to be cared for and cared about.

5.Growth. There could be some people who say they don't want to grow, but I think they're simply fearful of doing so—or perhaps NOT doing so. To become better, to improve our skills, to stretch and excel may be more evident in some than others, but it's there.

6.Contribution. The desire to contribute something of value—to help others, to make the world a better place than we found it is in all of us.

The hierarchy of these needs varies from person which makes us all quite unique individuals and it also why we all have very different approaches to a subject like transition or even the way we approach a forum like this... ;). Going into a transition it is actually well worth thinking this sort of stuff through.

Hope this helps you understand yesterday's post a bit better and looking forward to learning a bit more about you as I am genuinely curious about where you are coming from in your thinking.

Take care
Donna

P.S. I also believe the relative importance of these needs evolves over time. I left absolutley everyone I knew, family, friends etc; when I was 18. I couldn't do that now. 







 

I find the existential twist this thread has taken to be absolutely fascinating.   ;D

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:37:24 PM
-so totally shouldn't have said anything since it ended in a debate- :(

so: I know who I am, my real life starts after srs and erasure of past, and then also start my committed, deeper relationships, til then everything's kind of temporary~ end of discussion, sorry my posts irritated so many!

I love your posts and you shouldn't apologize for wanting to be stealth. I have the same dream, which I will achieve and in many ways kinda am, as unless I wear a suit, I don't pass as a male.

Also, you should be willing to give up everything for transition. I wouldn't want to, but if I had to choose between being myself and happy for once in my life, like I am now (The BF helps immensely), and staying put in some half-transtion, I would give up everything. Right now, I'm still early in transtion though I am full-time, I may soon have to go part-time at a job for a little until I get established then I will come out. Though, the must have noticed how femme I act and look. The suit didn't magically change my face, it just threw everything off. Plus, guys still stared at me in that way. So that was weird.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:37:24 PM
Go Turtles!

+1

Quote from: Antonia J on September 03, 2013, 05:30:07 PM
I find the existential twist this thread has taken to be absolutely fascinating.   ;D

Lol