Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just had an interesting conversation with my roommate this afternoon, and I though I would share it with everyone, because I thought it was a pretty poignant realization.

Basically, I was talking to my roommate Jenny about "passing." I said that I was kind of curious now looking back at my life, if maybe I'd met some transsexual people before but just didn't know about it. Jenny said, "well, I think you'd know if you had. I think I could pick out a trans person pretty well."

Now, Jenny has a very close FtM transsexual friend from high school. I met him almost as soon as I met Jenny and all of her other friends, but Jenny didn't tell me he was trans until months later.

"Well, what about Drew? I had no idea that he was transsexual until you told me. I would never have guessed it otherwise."

Jenny gave me a really crooked look, and said "Really? You couldn't tell?" And she said it in a tone that genuinely said to me that to her, when she looks at Drew, she still sees him as not completely passing.

But I was NOT exaggerating when I said that I couldn't tell whatsoever. Yes, Drew is extremely short for a guy. Yes, he had a bit of a baby face. But I would have NEVER guessed that he was transsexual unless Jenny had told me outright. I would have just assumed that he was that one guy that always somehow ends up mixed up into a group of female friends for some reason.

Then I realized something. Jenny knew him pre-transition. Jenny knew him as Angela, and therefore got to know him as a girl. So now when she sees him, she still sees the same girl that she was friends with in high school, not the guy that he became halfway through college. I, on the other hand, had NEVER known Drew pre-transition. I only knew him as male. And thus, when I think of him in my mind, I just see him as a normal guy, just as much as I think of any other male as a guy. And even after seeing pictures of him pre-transition, I still just see him as a guy, because that's all that I've personally known him as.

The point is... I was counting on Jenny's opinion a lot to tell me how I was coming along in terms of transition. But I've realized something. She knew me pre-transition. That's the me that she knows, and that's the me that she pictures in her mind when she thinks of me. And thus, no matter how much I feminize, she'll still be seeing me as that same person. So asking her if I look like a girl or not yet, the answer is never going to be yes, because she's always going to see that same person that she's always known me as. And it's the same for me. I know what I looked like as a male. So I'm always going to be able to see a guy in me somewhere.

But this doesn't mean that it's true. Again... to Jenny, Drew was not passable. To me, Drew was just a normal guy, and I was shocked to find out that he was trans.

Just something to keep in mind for those of you who are having problems with self-acceptance in regards to passing, and acceptance from friends and other people who already knew you as your birth gender. As much as we love them, they're not the best people to gauge how our progress is coming. What we really need to look at instead, is what people who have never even met us before think. Because unlike our friends and our own perceptions, which are used to seeing what we used to look like, people we've never met before are entering our lives with no bias whatsoever. And odds are actually good that most of them have no freaking clue that there's anything "different" about us, because they've only ever known us as our identity gender, and therefore that's who we are to them.

So the next time you're struggling with a lack of recognition from your friends and your self, feeling like you'll never be accepted as your identity gender, like you'll never make it, remember... the amount of people who knew you pre-transition is very small. The world is full of people who are only now seeing what you look like for the very first time... at the supermarket, at the gas station, at work, everywhere. And odds are, those people would be shocked to think of you as ever having been anyone else aside from who you are.

You bring up some very good points Carrie Liz  :)  I have noticed this also

It depends on the person but to an extent this is definitely a factor.
I have a suspicion that this issue occurs depending on how the individual thinks of you. As in are you the same person you were before just slightly more girlish/mannish or are you an entirely different person.

I've seen the topic "Are we the same people post transition." regardless of what we think I think our peers have there own opinions on this issue.

A male friend of mine who I've known since I was 4 had a hard time, accidentally referring to me as a male every so often for nearly 2 years after I transitioned, he explained when it clicked for him.
I went to a party around his house and I got REALLY drunk, after having fun I ended up vomiting on myself... Nice... anyway begin the gentleman he offered me one of his old shirts a huge baggy shirt that I had to wear as a nightie, he came up to check on me later that night and he saw me passed out peacefully on the edge of his bed... For him it clicked there because in his mind he explained that he thought "Well thats Martin, He just calls himself something different now and wears a dress."
It was when he saw me in an unflattering pose wearing boy clothes and seeing how they didn't fit my frame at all, my hair a mess, He got it. I even remember from my semi-concious state, him saying. "Huh, you actually are a woman." Which is how I remembered to ask him what that was about.

It is interesting to note that alot of my friends who have adjusted much better are those friends who when I asked them about it tend to think of me as an entirely different person now. As Caroline put it, "I don't think of you as the same person, I knew a person called Martin, He moved away and I met a girl called Alice."

A similar disconnect happens in people who've always known me as a female.
"I don't like thinking about how you used to be a boy, it's unsettling, Because your a lady, and I know I've seen the pictures! But that's not you... That's some stranger your showing me a picture of." Where I then joke that I'm a timelord and that's one of my past regenerations.

^Very interesting stories.

Okay, so I guess in the case of Jenny and Drew, she hasn't really gotten a chance to know him much post-transition. They still hang out, but it's always with the same group of friends, doing the same things, and she only sees him like maybe once a month or so, where in high school, pre-transition, she saw him every day. So I guess that plays a part.

It diffently depends on the person, for some people like homeless old folks I dont pass very well for some reason, but for people around my own age I pass with no problems. I also had a transwoman I considered passing but then to a party a lady asked if she was a man or a woman. ? what? that obvious she is a woman! hmm aperently not for her?

Quote from: pebbles on September 01, 2013, 05:51:50 AM
A similar disconnect happens in people who've always known me as a female.
"I don't like thinking about how you used to be a boy, it's unsettling, Because your a lady, and I know I've seen the pictures! But that's not you... That's some stranger your showing me a picture of." Where I then joke that I'm a timelord and that's one of my past regenerations.

one of my transfriend seen picture of me being 5-14 years old, he couldnt belive it was me, he said said that I looked so diffrent like I changed my whole personalety and everything since then and he couldnt reconize anything in me. it actually made me kinda depressed cause I dont want to think I changed as a person  :-\.

Quote from: Natkat on September 01, 2013, 02:40:16 PM
It diffently depends on the person, for some people like homeless old folks I dont pass very well for some reason, but for people around my own age I pass with no problems. I also had a transwoman I considered passing but then to a party a lady asked if she was a man or a woman. ? what? that obvious she is a woman! hmm aperently not for her?

one of my transfriend seen picture of me being 5-14 years old, he couldnt belive it was me, he said said that I looked so diffrent like I changed my whole personalety and everything since then and he couldnt reconize anything in me. it actually made me kinda depressed cause I dont want to think I changed as a person  :-\.

I'd think of it more like you weren't yourself before and now you are, not that you changed into a different person really.

I think you do have a point.  My mother only sees F when she looks at me, and it shocked her when people who didn't know me (ie cashiers, her friends) instantly referred to me with male pronouns.  I recently met another trans guy.  He is out.  I can NOT even imagine him pre-transition, he is male. Period. 

That said, your friend should not have outed Drew to you, either. It wasn't her place to do that.


Jay

Carrie, you bring up a really good point, and I had a similar experience.

A woman had recently joined our church and I was chatting with her on Sunday during coffee hour. She'd ask how long I'd been going this church and I told her, "Twenty-four year total, but about 1 since I started transition."

"Transition? Is that when you became a pledging member?

She was asking about my relationship with the church, not a gender transition. I explained what I meant, saying David had been going the church for about 23 years and Connie had been going for about 1, so it was 24 total.

She'd then said she'd had no idea that I wasn't born female.

We'd known each other for about 3 or 4 months when this conversation took place. She wasn't at this church when I gave my talk about transitioning. She'd never me the "prior" me. She'd only known Connie. So, to her I "passed" until I'd outed myself.

As far as I can remember I've never explicitly asked my girlfriend about this, except that I don't think she's ever slipped up since I came out to her (I think I thought that she had once, but it turned out that she'd said "sorry" and I heard it as my birthname, which I do quite often, I double take and then realise what she said.)  She's always trying to convince me not to wear a binder because to her she doesn't see anything out of the ordinary there, but there plainly is if you look.  Part of that might just be her paranoia that I might be hurting myself though.

And if you're going to slip up it's either going to be in the middle of the night when you're half asleep, or when you're very *distracted*, if you catch my drift... both times she's called me Alex.  I think that's a pretty good judge of how someone thinks of you, if they still refer to you completely as you even when they're clearly not focussing on making an effort (being drunk would be another good time I suppose, but she doesn't drink.)

No one else has known me before and after, other than one guy I've never seen since, but he's referred to me as male before to my girlfriend (I wiped her iPod clean and they share music so he had to put it back on), and he knows I'm trans, and has seen me when I was getting called by my birthname before.

I really do think there might be something in this though, one member on here in particular comes to mind, Dominick, who surfaces now and then convinced that he doesn't pass because his family tells him he hasn't changed appearance at all.  To all of us that's clearly rubbish, but to them maybe it isn't, and they really can't see that he's changed, or they're playing some sick weird mind games with him.  It does take a while for what you see in front of you to catch up with the image in your mind sometimes though, I ended up at the same school from someone from my primary school a while ago, and for a year or two I still saw him as the child he was when he was 7 or 8, until it finally clicked in my head that he wasn't that kid who tried to set up the "Playground Police" with me any more.  Maybe if I'd spoken to him in between it would have been quicker, I don't know.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Constance, I have to ask: why would anyone want to go back to being seen as a male after everyone sees her as a female? :o What possible reason would anyone have...?

Um, I don't understand what you mean. I went "full-time" about 2 years ago and have not gone back to a male presentation during that time. I do talk openly about my transition, is that what you mean?

I honestly have no idea what the friends who knew me pre-transition think. I do know that they use the right name and pronouns - even when I'm not around. People that have met me since often have no idea about my past until I open my mouth and mention it..

Here's an example.. I was recently out clubbing with an exGF, at a very GLBT friendly venue - a place, quite frankly, I expected to get clocked.. Several times me exGF dropped in to the conversation, quite casually, that I had once been her BF.. No one believed her - even with me baacking her up.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 11:06:50 PM
Yes, that baffles me. Is it your political agenda?

I don't see why it has to be an "agenda."

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 03:05:07 AM
Their lives are a bit harsher and their senses a bit more acute. So maybe anyone who's truly worried about passing should go find a sober homeless person with a piercing gaze to look you over from head to toe and then see how they react... haha xD Sorry, just a funny thought!

I guess I pass well then. I was outside this walgreen's the other day and this homeless guy was asking me for change, and he was sober, i think, and he started hitting on me lol telling me how gorgeous I am lol but then my BF walked out and he stopped real fast.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
haha :D that's great ^_^ Next challenge: a 70-year-old Polish grandmother who's survived 2 wars, only eats turnips and doesn't need a crutch to walk or glasses to see... xD *just being silly*

Too late. Challenge accepted!

This is actually a very deeply nuanced phenomenon on which I think somebody could probably do a whole thesis.  People that knew you before have a really hard time seeing you without their old image of you overlayed, unless a eureka moment like in Pebble's story happens.  People that never knew about your past can't see you ever being anything but your current gender/sex.

The latter, not a big deal, it's a great thing actually for most of us;  the former, we would love to know how to help people have that eureka moment, especially without having to make things too jarring or causing too much extra grief for our loved ones.  Once people start truly seeing us as being a member of our proper sex, things finally get real.  We want to get everybody there.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 02, 2013, 11:06:50 PM
Yes, that baffles me. Is it your political agenda?

Not really. It's more just accepting a part of my history.

I didn't start transitioning until I was 41 years old. My oldest was 20 and my youngest was 18. I wasn't going to just ignore that I'd been their father, or that I'd been a husband. I'm not ashamed of my past, so why wouldn't I be open about it?

Not enough time has passed yet for your friend to realize the social aspect of the changes. This is the factor that always gets overlooked in the rush to get through the physical changes. I suggest that if anyone had objectively looked at me a month or 2 post-op I bet that a smart person could figure it out. Now add 10 years to that date of living in that social role and I can say that I have started to figure things out (meaning what it means to be a woman in the world). Suppose in Drew's case, in 5 years he is out hunting and fishing with the boys on the weekends, and sports a full beard, and hangs out drinking beer on the weekends and driving a pickup truck, I wonder if you're friend would still think the same thing? Likewise, in your case, after living a womans life for a long time, and having a few boyfriends and then getting married and settling down with some man as his wife, if your friend would think the same as you.

If you ask me, real passing is integration, and it doesn't happen while one is transitioning, it's what happens afterwards, when the music stops and one has to now learn how to live a new life in a new body for the rest of their lives. The time people spend on this board is people documenting or dealing with the physical and legal transition. The social aspect is not something you can read in a book, it takes years of direct experience and there is simply no substitute for those years. It's why we may actually know or have first hand exposure to other trans people who transitioned long ago and not know it. Eventually the people on this board themselves will be in that position in 10 or 15 years from now and looking back at it all  realizing that sex characteristics aside for a moment, there was still a great deal to be learned even after one considers themselves "done".

This process might start as a big bang (coming out to one's self) but slows down right after that.  One can grow some small boobs in a year, but it might take another 5 years to figure out what exactly that means :)

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
you're not their father now

But, I am still their father. They call me "Dad" and I'm okay with that. With regards to the "spectrum," I guess I'm queering the concept of gender and gender roles here by continuing to identify as their father.

To the "passing" story I related, I'd been involved with that church for about 23 years by the time I started transitioning. Should I have left and found a new church where my past would not have been known? I don't feel the need to be stealth, and that probably speaks to how fortunate I am to live where and when I do. I know stealth is a necessary means of survival for others. Hmm, I guess I can see how others might think of this as some kind of political agenda. To me, it's just being me.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 11:22:57 AM
Zumbagirl makes good points and I agree passing is mostly about integration :) the post was a little general though, we have people here from every part of the spectrum! There are also some people who have fully or mostly integrated into the society as a female even before HRT or SRS... :) I think it's those people who really pass 100% based on what Zumbagirl said, unless you have the perfect female face and body, no broad shoulders and no bushy eyebrows and no masculine characteristics of any kind beyond the level in a genetic female plus your voice is perfect... and you go hunting with the 'guys' or playing football and drinking beer... maybe you don't pass as well as you think after all :) integration is key, girls do boy things and boys do girl things but if you don't pass 100% to every single person in the world then anything can tip the scales... :)

I think time can overcome a great many things including things that some might think are physically unpassable traits. Someone who we might collectively think has a snowballs chance in he** of making it as a woman, might end up living a successful and invigorating life, if we simply allow enough time to pass so she can fully integrate. I've seen some football-ish looking women, heck I work with a few, but they are still women to me. If one of them told me she was trans I probably would be just as "what?? really??" as if I told them about myself. In my case I knew I was in the club when other women wanted to talk about periods and period cramps with me :)

I guess what I was trying to say in summation is irregardless of the physical changes one does, one can fit in given enough time. From what the original poster was saying:

some one who knows a person before the transition: passing takes a long time and need to demonstrate integration into new gender/physical sex. In other words they know the past, but to forget it, they need a long time and to see that one has integrated into the world successfully before they let go of the past.

someone who did't know me before transition: I can still integrate and lead a wholesome life irregardless of the amount of physical changes done. I'm one end of the extreme (3 trips to the OR) but I bet there are some with NO trips to the OR and they lead quality lives as well.

The first point is one reason why so many trans people who end up on the other side make new friends and disappear. This way they can take their time and figure out who they really are figure out where they are on that spectrum, if that makes any sense.

I think you are probably right that integrating fully into womanhood usually takes 10-15 years.  Most girls go through that process as children, trans women start a little later.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 11:06:17 AM
Suppose in Drew's case, in 5 years he is out hunting and fishing with the boys on the weekends, and sports a full beard, and hangs out drinking beer on the weekends and driving a pickup truck, I wonder if you're friend would still think the same thing? Likewise, in your case, after living a womans life for a long time, and having a few boyfriends and then getting married and settling down with some man as his wife, if your friend would think the same as you.

Just wanted to mention... Drew has been fully transitioned and living full-time for eight years now. So I guess it varies from person to person, because Jenny has had plenty of time to see him in his new social role.

Needless to say, I"m not expecting anything with her.

(Just to clarify, though, it's not like she doesn't accept him as male. She does. But the issue was just that she thinks he doesn't fully pass... she thinks that it's obvious that he's trans.)

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, though. You make an EXCELLENT point, and you're right, we do all put a LOT of emphasis on the physical transition rather than the social transition. And this is actually one of the reasons why I don't go out more yet, is because I'm frankly a bit scared by all of the little feminizing social aspects of transition that I pretty much don't even have a clue about. Even in chat on the internet, where all of my virtual friends completely accept me as female, I still feel like I talk more like a guy. So I recognize that I still have a LOT to learn, and that it's not going to be a quick and easy process.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:02:50 PM
Most trans people anyway~ Unless you were lucky enough to have a childhood playing with the girls and were surrounded by girls and women most of your life and have spent the last 15-20 years of your life (before transitioning) seeing breasts and vaginas (as something not erotic) and talking about boys and whispering secrets to each other in the night and writing stories together and talking about feelings for hours on end and calling each other and talking on the phone til way past midnight and being as used to seeing period blood as school books... haha :D then the integration is kind of already in the pocket and it doesn't take any time at all~ but I think that might be pretty rare :)

Whenever you start :), even if it is pre-transition so to speak, it just takes a while to get there.  The good news is I think you can get 70-90% there (or something lol) within the first few years with some work and with being social, and not a shut-in, as a woman.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 12:07:39 PM
That's what I kind of meant when I said people who knew you before are never truly going to forget about what you were... it's sad but that's the way it is, this case just proves my point~ Genuine tolerance is genuine pretence... pretence so strong the person believes it themself~ tolerance can't change the millions of years of evolution that brought about the human brain unfortunately :(

Maybe happiness comes from within and not from worrying about how other people see you.  If you can live a truly happy life despite what others think  of you, why does anything else matter?  Hiding your past works well for shallow relationships (acquaintances, coworkers, guy you meet at a club for some one time fun, whatever).  If you want a deeper relationship with someone, don't you think sharing things that you went through is important?  There's no way I could ever be stealth in a real meaningful relationship.  I just can't see hiding something like that to be healthy.  Maybe for you, if you don't have much of a male past to hide, it could be easier, but not everyone has quite that much privilege.  I can't not tell someone that I want to be close to that I was married and lost a child, or that I lost my virginity to a woman, or what my childhood was like, or how I went through most of my life with everyone thinking and often telling me that I am probably gay, these things are all parts of my life that made me who I am, and I just would feel like I'm being deceptive by hiding them or twisting them slightly to make it something that a woman might have experienced. All of these experiences lead to the truth about my birth sex. 

A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman. I would confront them about it and they would always say "Oh be patient, it takes a lot of practice to remember to say "she" and "her" every time. I think I was seriously damaged by the mis-gendering wrong name because now I tend to think they are lying when they say the right name and pronouns. It wasn't until 2 years of high-dose hrt and full-blown ffs that people would admit I did in fact look a little bit different, which was strange because I'd run into people who hadn't seen me since before my transition at parties and such and they didn't know who I am or know that I was a trans-person even though they knew of my transition. It took me years to un-learn what I was taught by my friends and family during my transition and I sometimes still have a hard time believing they are for real when they gender me correctly.

For years I had the distinct impression they were humoring me the way one might humor a child dressed up and pretending to be Batman.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 03, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman. I would confront them about it and they would always say "Oh be patient, it takes a lot of practice to remember to say "she" and "her" every time. I think I was seriously damaged by the mis-gendering wrong name because now I tend to think they are lying when they say the right name and pronouns. It wasn't until 2 years of high-dose hrt and full-blown ffs that people would admit I did in fact look a little bit different, which was strange because I'd run into people who hadn't seen me since before my transition at parties and such and they didn't know who I am or know that I was a trans-person even though they knew of my transition. It took me years to un-learn what I was taught by my friends and family during my transition and I sometimes still have a hard time believing they are for real when they gender me correctly.

For years I had the distinct impression they were humoring me the way one might humor a child dressed up and pretending to be Batman.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftshirtvortex.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Falwaysbeyourself.jpg&hash=a4663e691ef0f7d2ac924f6abfaba0a9e5c95ff4)

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 12:44:53 PM
Maybe happiness comes from within and not from worrying about how other people see you.  If you can live a truly happy life despite what others think  of you, why does anything else matter?  Hiding your past works well for shallow relationships (acquaintances, coworkers, guy you meet at a club for some one time fun, whatever).  If you want a deeper relationship with someone, don't you think sharing things that you went through is important?  There's no way I could ever be stealth in a real meaningful relationship.  I just can't see hiding something like that to be healthy.  Maybe for you, if you don't have much of a male past to hide, it could be easier, but not everyone has quite that much privilege.  I can't not tell someone that I want to be close to that I was married and lost a child, or that I lost my virginity to a woman, or what my childhood was like, or how I went through most of my life with everyone thinking and often telling me that I am probably gay, these things are all parts of my life that made me who I am, and I just would feel like I'm being deceptive by hiding them or twisting them slightly to make it something that a woman might have experienced. All of these experiences lead to the truth about my birth sex.

This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

Once I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

Once I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

I don't have much problem with the fact that I am trans, but I do have a problem with not being treated as if I'm cis. I mean, why shouldn't I be?

About honesty in relationships, I agree, but more for pragmatic reasons. It could be tough keep a lid on and it might not even be necessary. I'm sort of seeing a guy right now and I haven't told him yet. I'm waiting to see if things get serious first. I'm not outing myself to someone who might not be around next month.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM
Lol no, not even a little bit~ a deeper relationship is based on who I am now, not who I was before~ I completely disagree with the theory that you need to understand someone's past in order to understand them now~ No you don't! That's lazy talk! If you want to understand them now, get to know them as they are now! You'll learn eventually! Past is for things that you have learned from and outgrown! Judging someone by their past just leads to misjudging and relationships with lot of baggage~ if someone wants to tell me their past, fine, but honestly I'm not that interested~ I'm interested in how they are now~ As for telling about my childhood, I had a pretty normal girl childhood so I could tell about it without it making anyone thing I was anything but a normal girl :) Maybe I'm priviledged that, maybe i'm sane for not insisting on dragging baggage into every relationship, maybe I'm just different than you and what works for you doesn't work for me and vice versa. In either case, I could never live as you do, pouring out every single thing about my past to someone just because i want a deep relationship. Hello, I want a deep SATISFYING relationship, not a deep psychoanalytical baggage filled relationship where talking about past becomes more important than living in the present~

Like I said, I don't believe a person is capable of knowing about your trans past and treating you as cis both consciously and subconsciously. Can you guarantee that they see you as a girl even in their dreams? the latter is important to me, I don't want half-experiences for the sake of some misguided notion of 'honesty' :)

" There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person." completely disagree!

Recently I saw someone post a topic, "post srs and still feel like a trans" my first though was 'duh, is it any wonder, you're coming to a trans forum after your srs? issues letting go much?' and I was right, they themself said that they think they're somehow attached to their 'identity being trans'

I think some people are trans and some people are females/males, for whom transition is just a necessary evil.

I already am a female to myself, I have been for a very long time (since birth really, just was confused about my identity along the way for a while). I don't transition for myself (other than wanting a female body because I hate my male body), I mostly transition for other people, to make the external correspond to the internal. Trust me, there is no uncertainty about the internal, I need zero help with that :) It's the external I'm changing!

:icon_weirdface: Well hope that all works out for you. I honestly think you have a lot to learn about life, but then again maybe you'll be lucky and your way will work out for you.  I won't try to sway your opinion anymore, it seems futile, but I really hope for your sake you don't have to learn a valuable lesson the hard way.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 03, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
A lot of friends and family would mis-gender me and used the wrong name for years, and what I always took from it was that I was a delusional fool to think I could ever actually be seen as a woman.

Same goes for showing your picture to a trans forum, with them knowing you are trans and saying "do I pass?". They have a preconceived notion already, which taints their opinion. I have shown a pictures- of natal women on trans forums and asked "Do I pass?" and they all said -no way- lol.

I'm at the point where I don't question it, I pass well enough where it never affects my life. I'm never incorrectly gendered, unless it is someone who knows my last. I've learned to excuse it, they don't do it on purpose. but for example, last week I was at the doc in the box for an ear infection and had to explain in detail "I am a woman but still have a penis, I am transgendered", he had no clue. I figure if a doctor doesn't clock me, I must pass fairly well :) This sort of thing has happened enough (several medical people have asked if I am pregnant or plan to become pregnant, when was your last period etc) that I realize strangers simple have no clue of my past.

Quote from: Glitterfly on September 03, 2013, 04:48:50 PM

Like I said, I don't believe a person is capable of knowing about your trans past and treating you as cis both consciously and subconsciously. Can you guarantee that they see you as a girl even in their dreams? the latter is important to me, I don't want half-experiences for the sake of some misguided notion of 'honesty' :)

All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently. My BF just recently started calling me she and her 100 percent of the time. I never asked, i just waited for him to see me that way. Plus, not all trans women have kids. Maybe a lot do, but many younger people do not and are atracted to men, not women, so they couldn't have kids.

It'd be nice if more younger people saw things the way I do.  No offense to the older people here, I just want to be able to relate with people my age and I don't think I really have much of a chance of doing that here.  I see posts by people around my age and I just don't get them and they don't seem to get me most of the time and I see posts by older people and its like I get them and they get me (or so I hope).  Very frustrating.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 03, 2013, 06:45:32 PM
If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently. My BF just recently started calling me she and her 100 percent of the time. I never asked, i just waited for him to see me that way. Plus, not all trans women have kids. Maybe a lot do, but many younger people do not and are atracted to men, not women, so they couldn't have kids.

Also, I really don't like the statement "so they couldn't have kids" but I'll just leave it at that.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on September 03, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
This is why I always think that one's own self-acceptance is the most important thing of this all, above physical changes or even completely successful integration. There is always the realization that no matter what, one will always be a trans person. No amount of surgery or no amount of hormones will ever change that. From what I have seen in life, some people have no problems embracing their trans identity, and some people have to take time, and some unfortunate souls not at all. That's why to me, if someone wanted to call me a woman, a man, or a rubber chicken I don't care. Nothing will ever take away the reality of who I am as a person right here and right now.

I've been saying that all along.. 100% self acceptance is needed, you need to be able to accept who you are in order to move on. Regardless of what I call myself, regardless of how I feel, I will always be trans and I'm OK with that.

QuoteOnce I arrived at that point in my life where I was content I was actually okay with the thought that I am indeed a trans person and nothing will ever change that. That doesn't mean I want to walk down the street with it tattooed on my forehead and it's honestly nobodys business, but that's me.

I don't advertise that fact I'm trans.. But I don't go to any great lengths to hide it.. And you are right, it's nobody's business unless I choose to make it so.

QuoteI do agree with you Alice that disclosure is a good thing. I think those who feel they can hide their pasts are living in the same trap they started with. I always remembered some checklist I read years ago about what makes a relationship successful: The first one was communication but the second most important one is honesty. Without that a relationship is going to be doomed because the trust aspect works both ways (such as if I withold things from someone, doesn't that mean they have the same right to do the same to me?)

Can't disagree with you or Alice there.. I will disclose my past to any partner who doesn't know, assuming it's a serious relationship, I have no issues doing so - it's simply the honest thing to do..

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:11:29 PM
Same goes for showing your picture to a trans forum, with them knowing you are trans and saying "do I pass?". They have a preconceived notion already, which taints their opinion. I have shown a pictures- of natal women on trans forums and asked "Do I pass?" and they all said -no way- lol.

Yes, that is so true. You can never actually ask someone if you pass or not, because the mere act of asking will create a bias in how they see you.

Quote from: Stephe on September 03, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
All I can say is be very careful about hiding your past, like you describe, in relationships. Some people will become quite hostile if/when "discovery" happens, and it will happen. This is the cause of the majority of trans violence. Just a fact, not that it is acceptable.

And sorry, there is no such thing as "misguided honesty" in any relationship, unless it's just a hookup. I know I would feel insulted and hurt if someone I was in a relationship with kept their past from me, no matter what it was. That is part of intimacy, trusting the other person with your deepest secrets. This isn't some small thing to keep from someone, this is like a "Oh yeah I used to be married and have 3 children, did I not mention that?"

I think I'm willing to risk being bludgeoned to death if that is what it takes to experience life as a cis woman. I've had almost exclusively bad experiences with guys that know about my past. They always say and do stupid things and they always treat me as if I'm not really an actual woman. They always say highly inappropriate things and think that normal rules don't apply. I hate it so much I want to scream when it happens. They think I'm okay with being treated like dirt, because all I'm interested in is just sex, right?

The guy I'm with now doesn't know and I intend to keep it that way until things potentially get serious, and by serious I don't mean sex cause that is already happening.

The irony of the situation is that when people find out about me their reality of me will be way more distorted than it was before they found out. In a way I find that how people view me before they find out is more in line with reality than how they view me after they find out.

Sorry this is random by why am I seeing glitterfly quotes everywhere but not 1 post  :o

And on the note of this thread I ditch all people who get close to me until I actually full transition. I just dont trust people to ever see me right if they know me now.

^She posted a lot of replies that people were getting defensive about, and she was talking about how she didn't want to get into an argument, so she probably deleted all of her posts.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
Also, I really don't like the statement "so they couldn't have kids" but I'll just leave it at that.

Well, it's not for you to like or dislike, it just is. if a MAAB trans woman is attracted to men, that trans woman can't have kids unless it is thru artificial means (and pre hormones). Most young people neither have the money nor the desire to have kids by themselves. And if they are a young and trans and with a man, like me, guess what, if kids becomes a thing, it won't be the trans person's sperm being used, it will be the man's.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 04, 2013, 02:06:27 PM
Well, it's not for you to like or dislike, it just is. if a MAAB trans woman is attracted to men, that trans woman can't have kids unless it is thru artificial means (and pre hormones). Most young people neither have the money nor the desire to have kids by themselves. And if they are a young and trans and with a man, like me, guess what, if kids becomes a thing, it won't be the trans person's sperm being used, it will be the man's.

I guess just leaving it at that didn't work, you took it the wrong way.  I'm not unhappy about same sex partners not being able to have children in the traditional sense, I didn't like the statement because it is sounded like you were telling same sex partners that they don't have any options or that their options are invalid.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on September 03, 2013, 06:45:32 PM
If you are post-op, and don't want to divulge, why should you have to. If you had a cnacerous mole removed, would you tell that? Why is it so neccesary to divulge. And the fact is after the secret is out, people will treat you differently.

Maybe when you reread what you wrote above, you will see why disclosing having a mole removed and having had sex change surgery might be just a tad different.

The other key word here is "secret", do you -really- want to live the rest of your life in secret? Sorry, I have already done that too much already, years of hiding I was trans as I lived as a guy. Why would I want to continue doing that as a woman?

Quote from: Kelly the Post-Trans-Rebel on September 03, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
I've been saying that all along.. 100% self acceptance is needed, you need to be able to accept who you are in order to move on. Regardless of what I call myself, regardless of how I feel, I will always be trans and I'm OK with that.

I don't advertise that fact I'm trans.. But I don't go to any great lengths to hide it.. And you are right, it's nobody's business unless I choose to make it so.

Can't disagree with you or Alice there.. I will disclose my past to any partner who doesn't know, assuming it's a serious relationship, I have no issues doing so - it's simply the honest thing to do..

I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Alice here. I don't advertize being trans either but I have finally accepted I am trans and no amount of surgery etc will change that. I do find that someone "being trans" as more mainstream and more people than ever know someone who is trans and, like myself, are basically just another woman they know. Most people I interact with have no clue I wasn't born a woman but I would never hide this or lie about my past if someone asked or I felt it was something they should know.

I feel like people are bringing their personal agendas into this thread, which are at best tangentially related to the topic, and trying to stir things up for no reason.

Well after I complete surgery I will no longer consider myself trans. I will be a woman. Not "basically" a woman. Not like a woman. A woman. And I have never hid the fact that i am gender variant nor pretended to be a manly man. I'm not criticizing those that have as I totally understand but your experience may not be my experience.

And don't twist my words I meant you wouldn't tell people about a part of your history that ceases to matter so why should being trans be different. There is an element in shame in feeling you have to disclose. There is. That's what I meant by that analogy. But really I'm done with this argumentative thread.

Just saying...

This was supposed to be a positive thread about passing where I realized that most people who I'd never met who were looking at me probably had no idea that I was trans, and would probably accept me as female because that was the only me that they've ever known, wheras previously I was letting the opinions of friends constantly get to me because they always told me that I wasn't there yet and that they could still tell.

I don't know where all of this arguing about stealth came from...

Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 04, 2013, 03:20:31 PM
Just saying...

This was supposed to be a positive thread about passing where I realized that most people who I'd never met who were looking at me probably had no idea that I was trans, and would probably accept me as female because that was the only me that they've ever known, wheras previously I was letting the opinions of friends constantly get to me because they always told me that I wasn't there yet and that they could still tell.

I don't know where all of this arguing about stealth came from...

It was actually the intent of my first post in this thread to say pretty much the same thing. There was at least that one instance in which a person I was interacting with face-to-face had no idea I was trans until I mentioned it.

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2013, 02:31:12 PM
Maybe when you reread what you wrote above, you will see why disclosing having a mole removed and having had sex change surgery might be just a tad different.

The other key word here is "secret", do you -really- want to live the rest of your life in secret? Sorry, I have already done that too much already, years of hiding I was trans as I lived as a guy. Why would I want to continue doing that as a woman?

No one is prescribing any one way of life here. No one is saying one is better or worse. Whatever one chooses is very personal and that does not imply that they expect others to do the same. No one is being judgemental. No one is imposing. Every time this comes up, it's the same thread repeated over again. Do whatever makes you happy.

I think that it is really rather normal that people who know you have a harder time "getting it" than people who dont know you at all. Meaning that you can "pass" to strangers but not to people you know already in the past - for them it is more a matter of changing their own view about you. And I think most of us know how hard this is even for ourselves. I believe that few of us here did not have the experience of looking into the mirror and seeing a face that reminds oneself about a person of the "old" gender - ones own brother or something - basically this is "not passing" to oneself. I guess with FFS and such, this can actually be thwarted, but without that, facial features can always remind one of the past - even more than what other people would notice. This is the same with friends - they dont look neutrally at you, just as yourself dont do it - instead they look at the face and recognize a person they know and then it does not matter if that face changed in some ways, but the identity assigned to that person comes from the memory, while strangers will take a more neutral look at your new self and identify it with your new appearance and your person and gender as it is and thus have less issues with that cumbersome memory of the "old you".
I had the fun once and went to a school reunion. Didnt see the people for about 10 years and was about 2 years into transition, HRT and all. A few people identified me and they had some trouble getting the name right and all that after I told them. Others just didnt get it, they kept saying that I seem familar but they cannot remember really who I am - until they were told by someone who I was, they did not really have an issue withnames and gendering, but afterwards as memory set in, they suddenly had. Its all about that memory.

Zumba, I think your path is a very good and admirable one, but I also think that it is easier said than done. Being post-op for over a decade myself now, I think in part this is right - one learns a lot in these years, but at least I myself have still much more to learn as I am not the most sociable person that gets into friends circles easily. What I think is rather hard is to get to that acceptance for myself. To have the confidence that everyone will see you as a woman, that you are free to do whatever you want and still feel and be perceived as a woman, that is sort of the high goal and I for myself still catch me thinking that some action, behaviour or look on my side is too male or that if I do this or that I will be perceived as male. This leads me to being insecure. I tried this acceptance of "I am a woman but also a transperson" and to not worry about some people seeing that, but in the end it came out as a game of pretense. I lied to myself about not caring about this. In fact everytime I did something I felt was too "male" and especially every time I feel like I am not "passing", I feel really bad, try to push away that thought, pretend I do not care, but inside I feel scared and stiffen up (which de facto increases the danger of "not passing"). Normally I tend to think that people will either see me as just a woman or "read" me in that I am a woman with a trans past. But very occasionally I actually am gendered the wrong way and this really sucks then. Had it happen last month when I was in a group doing a thing where one tells a story about oneself and the other refelcts on that story. I told my story and the other guy retold my story but kept saying that "he" did this and "the man" did that. I told him later that this confused me and he apologized, but it left me thinking for days and actually was part of what led me to taking another look at voice lessons and then finally to join this forum because I really did not expect to "fail" like that after 15 years of living in my true gender.
I dont know - true acceptance to be trans and true acceptance that there will be some people who will know even if it was not told to them (and yes, i would tell a person I want to seriously have a long term relationship with) - that is harder done than said. I suspect that in part one has to find a way to accept onself as the gender one truely is - a sentence that already shows how it should be - "the gender one truely is" - in my case this would mean to really honestly and down to the soft inner soul of myself accept and know that I am female and not have those nagging doubts about his or that trait being male or worry about giving off "male vibes" as a reason for being "read" and all that crap. The confidence from being really in ones female self center I can imagine would be a great basis for not worrying too much about passing anymore. On the other hand not to worry about passing anymore because it always works would greatly contribute to reaching that calmness and security about ones identity, which I think is why so many people go for FFS and all that stuff, so that they dont ever have to worry about this again and can feel safe and secure in opening up their own inner identity and not have it harmed by stupid occurences.

I hope I make sense - please tell me if I am talking nonsense to you, english is not my native language and I am sometimes not sure when I start rambling or philosophizing if it still makes sense to others ;)

anjaq, I'm impressed by your handle on English, it's much better than probably half of the people whose first language is English.  Your post made a lot of sense and I'd have to agree with everything that you've said in it/

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 04, 2013, 04:42:55 PM
anjaq, I'm impressed by your handle on English, it's much better than probably half of the people whose first language is English.

I am not sure if I should feel good because I got a positive review of my english language skills or if I should feel worried because 50% of the people whose native language is english are worse. LOL

I think what you are saying makes perfect sense anjaq. I know what you mean about that insecure and scared feeling on the inside. I had that too, but over the past year I've managed to lose it. At the same time I don't really see my former self in the mirror anymore. All of a sudden I feel complete.

There was a wonderful former member of this forum that wrote something that really stuck with me when I read it last year. I'm not sure where the post is but I have a copy of it since I thought it was so good:

"As time progresses you will have more and more history to draw from as a woman.  Some women focus on all the experiences they will never have, like crapping their pink diapers or having their first period.  They focus on what they don't have and make the present a never-ending deficit or a never ending non-experience.  My suggestion is to do something every day that scares you.  Though your life as a woman may appear as an invisible bridge I would encourage you to walk on it, jump on it, dance on it, leap on it...  because by doing that you will make your bridge stronger and more visible.  By cautiously treading very carefully on it or considering it from a distance it will remain a fantasy.  Womanhood will continue to be a fantasy.  Drop bombs on it.  Smash it with hammers and it will become amazing and strong and you will come to confidently tread upon it."

Well, I followed her advise and I went out there and I pummeled it! I've lived more the past 12 months than I did the previous 10 years put together. I won't necessarily advocate doing just as I did, but I took chances, did scary and sometimes stupid things. Things I probably won't do again. I really stuck my neck out there (once I engaged in intercourse that turned to rape and another time I almost choked to death on my friends bathroom floor when I got vomit down the windpipe which made it decide to slam shut for about 30-40 seconds).

I didn't have to push it as far as I did (please don't follow my example) but pushing my limit was what changed the view I have of myself. I pushed my "womanhood" to the breaking point and it held. Since my shift in self-perception I can do pretty much what ever the hell I want to. I'm not scared of anything anymore and my confidence is 100x what it was last year. My attitude has improved greatly and my voice is simply so much better than it was before. Everything about me is better now.

I really love that bridge analogy and I feel inspired to live and enjoy my life more whenever I read it, which I do every now and then :)

Maria - that sounds like a good advice but I am not sure I get it really. What do you mean by "pushing your womanhood to the breaking point" - it sounds a bit like you just had a really exciting time with vomiting and all that, but I am not sure in what way this is pushing the womanhood instead of basically just life itself. Now for me, I have lived about 40% of my life up to now as a woman (geez - I just typed that in the calculator and it really is 40%, didnt realize that before). Transitioned with 23, that was 15 years ago. I must say that most of my active memories are from that time, hardly anything before is really that present except some funny events and some bad ones. So if it comes to basically living a life with lots of experiences after transition, I think I can say I did that. Most of the more extreme events does not really relate to being a woman though (except maybe that time we travelled to Iran and it was all about muslim clothing laws and such). I think one problem is that during these 15 years there was always that thought of "actually being trans" lurking and tainting a bit the experiences and some memories just persist, like that look in the mirror even now can give me a bad feeling. Usually of course this is when I am down, tired or sick anyways, then I tend to see myself more like the "old self". Probably that is because back then I felt sick, tired and locked in and so that feeling brings up the remembrance of these times. Just a theory.
So I feel like I definitely need to get to that point of letting this go. Its about time after 15 years! I am sick of this pulling me down from time to time and nagging at me. It has to end. I dont really know what to do. So if you can explain to me the last post a bit more in detail, I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile I figured that I just have in many ways become too neglecting towards myself - I just posted something in the post op section on part of that and I am getting my ass off the ground now to finally go to a stupid electrologist for those remaining hairs in the face that laser could not get rid of in the last years (its not much but its a reminder that is annoying) and I need to get back my voice that I once had and somehow lost because I thought "this problem is dealt with, now to something completely different" - and without having an eye on it, it seems to have reverted without me noticing. So basically I have to bring some things in order that I should have done years ago - trans-wise.

Well, the short story is that I went out and put myself in more and more compromising situation, or rather situation in which I could be found out if you know what I mean. I used to be so afraid of everything and I kept making excuses not to do things anymore. Basically I was content with sitting at home slowly descending into the grave. Well, for some reason I woke up one day and decided life wasn't over just yet, and I went out and did many of the things I had pictured myself doing after transition that I never got around to do.

This might seem silly or stupid to some, but one of the main things I did was to go out and have flings and ONS with men who don't know about my trans status. I wanted to see just how far I could take it. My "abilities" as a woman had thus far pretty much been intellectual exercise. It was really all theory. I had a suspicion I passed well, but I didn't know for sure, and I was afraid of discovering that I was delusional to think I passed well. So, I put myself to the test to see what I would learn about myself, and what I discovered was that I really am a woman in all the ways that matter to me. I can live my life the way I pictures it should have been, and best of all, I don't really feel the trans baggage weighing me down anymore. I've broken through now and I feel great!!! :)

I'm sure some might find my method of finding out who I really am to be preposterous, maybe even offensive to some, but I did it and I'm so so glad I did. Life was dreary. Now it's exciting and fresh and just the way I want it, so I don't really care what anyone might think :)

Oh yeah, the weight loss made a huge difference too, so definitely do that. I've been kicking myself for not doing it sooner  >:(

Haha, yes definitely thats the plan to loose these kilos. Didnt get my ass off the ground in that respect for some years now. It keeps me from doing other stuff as well I think.

Ok, so I start to get what you mean - you are basically trying to get into situations that show more clearly if you "pass" or not and that may even be dangerous. I know in most situations I get into, if someone will "read" my past, they will be polite Germans and not say anything. I had people knowing about this for years and I never knew that they knew - awww I was dissapointed when I found out... So I am not sure about how I would go about getting such experiences. I dont find your way "offensive" but I dont think it is my way. I am not a very sexual person, never was and did not expect this to change so much with surgery, so going for ONS and such is not really something I desire or wished for... not even because I would be afraid to be "read" but just picking up some guy or girl and go to bed with him or her - phew - no, not really. I even had trouble in relationships I had because I was not sexually active enough. Post op that is - didnt have any experiences pre-op (*blush* - did I just admit that I was a virgin when I was on that OP table?). Oh and as can be seen from the sentence above, I am not even sure if I am lesbian or bisexual ;) - my therapist basically (thats interesting) told me more or less to do what you did - go out and pick up guys and girls and see how it goes, have sex, have short relationships, see if I like men or women more and she thought it would help me with my depression. I never did that, it just - does not feel right - because there is not really a desire burning in me to do this a lot...
So I am not sure then what other situations or experiences could have a similar effect but do not involve sex - did the person you quoted this from have some other suggestions or did she basically the same thing as you did? Can you maybe make this a bit more clear still by giving other examples or is this basically it - that having an open and active sex life is the cure (oh gee - I am not sure that I could ever get there then. Because I am not so much into it and even if I would be then it definitely would mean I have to loose a lot of weight and actually go out in loud dance clubs and bars... meh, I feel old now that I dont do this anymore)

But breaking through, that definitely sounds awesome :)

Yes, that was something I was wondering about, if people were just polite or not (I live in Norway and it's much the same way here). Not being able to tell sort of left me in limbo. I wanted to find out if I was there yet or not. If it was all in my imagination or not, so I decided to put it to the test the only way I could think of. My thinking was that if I put myself in a situation in which I would be in harms way should my trans-status be discovered, then I would know for sure, and to be double sure I did it repeatedly just in case they were humoring me. Nothing happened and judging from the context of the situation and the things they said (worries about birth control and such) I am almost 99.9% sure there is no way they knew anything. I wanted to see if I really had achieved the privilege that I initially set out to gain.

As I've already said, I don't advocate following my example. Not at all. I'm a very resourceful person, I always land on my feet and I'm no stranger to sticky situation. I know some of the things I did were stupid and dangerous, like hanging out with an illegal alien drug dealer from a war stricken Islamic country in Africa, a guy who has a huge crush on me to boot (I did not have sex with him though).

The former member that wrote the piece that inspired me to take more chances didn't say specifically what to do. I just took my own interpretation of the text and jumped in at the deep end. Basically she just said to not let your past history hamper you today. Defy your history and the imaginary limitations that we seem to impose on ourselves. I was holding back because I somehow felt I didn't have the right to be just a woman, with my history and all. Kind of as if I wasn't a "real" woman and therefore should act accordingly. Well, forget about that. My trans-status means squat to me now and I don't feel feel there is any reason why I can't live my life as if I were in fact cis.

So anyways, you aren't a highly sexual being. That's okay. You don't have to be. That was just the vehicle I chose, and there is more to the story. It was all about my promiscuous and risky behavior. It was also about how I reinvented my life over the past 12 months. I went from being a fat lazy hermit biotch to being an smoking hot outgoing chick with a lust adventure. I got a BA, got out of a dead marriage that just wasn't working, took better care of myself, made new friends and I stopped making excuses for not trying new things. Oh, and I discovered that I really like sex after all :)

I can't tell you how to solve your own problems because we are not the same person and what might work for me might not work for you. I'm just telling my story and hope that perhaps it'll inspire you in a similar way the bridge story inspired me.

The weight loss though was probably a greater factor than I initially thought. I did not feel good about my appearance last year and I'm sure that played a big role in how subdued I let my life become. As soon as the kilos started to come off I felt more and more inclined to go out and socialize, so once you get that taken care of you might find that the rest of the knot unties itself :)

Ok, I think I get it more then. Hmm - I must say not many situations now come to my mind that I would consider trying for that. Except to do as you did which - well, I said that already - not really so much interest on my side. Everything else basically is not as "dangerous". Also I am not as convinced that I would succeed in that sort of test. Two things are causing this uncertainty - one is the suspicion of what I read is called a "soft read" - people noticing the trans past or at least having a strong suspicion and then behaving a bitt differently - its a breeding ground for paranoia, so one never can be sure if there was something to it or not. Especially in polite European countries. (might be an interesting "dangerous situation" to do a vacation in some parts of the US maybe :P ) The other is that there are single instances I am just failing. No uncertainties or such, just people without any hint of uncertainty calling me a "he" in some situation - Usually other people will either not notice this at all (if they would be polite only and just not tell me, they probably would mention that situation afterwards and try to comfort me) or they will be confused - at times they will at this point look at me really carefully and then notice whatever they did not notice before - enlarged 100 times by my uneasiness and discomfort in that situation and then the dominoes topple and I just want to get out. So I know that its mot a 100% thing for sure, I am not sure if it is a 99%, 98% or even 99.8% or maybe if its actually just 80%, who knows. This is what you describe - this uncertainty where one stands and that should be clarified. Just dont know how - if the situations are dangerous and it is just an 80% or it is a 99% but I hit the remaining 1% in that situation, I'm dead without knowing what it was. Maybe overy dramatized now. I think I definitely would want to be at least sure that such idiotic situations do not happen anymore that tell me without going into danger zones that it is not a 100% for sure.

My suspicion on the black spot is mainly voice issues by the way. Nearly every time this happened it was in a dark environment (tent just lit with a fire, a table with just candlelight), visual clues are limited but people listen closer to the voices. My theory anyways. Maybe fire or candles also bring out some facial features that are disadvantageous - I dont know - I find it VERY hard to judge my face. One moment I think its great, the next time I think its just looking really "->-bleeped-<-". People I can ask are friends and never would tell me its bad - or they are transpeople who either say its great because the next sentence then is how much worse they are off - or they just make "standard" suggestions about surgeons they read about. Its a bit hard to find a neutral person who will say this and for which it does not matter if he knows or not.

It sounds all easy, but I guess it is not - "not letting the history hamper yourself now". Its a bit like telling a depressed person "just be happy". Its not something I feel and fear that can be forced but then again it has to be if one does not want to be stuck in uncertainty and doubt forever. It would be great to follow that advice and just "let it be" basically. The mind is annoying - it keeps refusing to just let it go for longer than a couple of moments - I noticed there is always a little multitasking thread open in my mind that thinks about my past, my trans-ness, that looks for signs of not passing, that looks critically at myself in the mirror and so on. It takes up capacity of my mind that could well go to much more fun things if I could end that thought... but I feel I cannot end it with jumping through beds, even if that worked for you. Though I guess I am nearing a potential mid life crisis person now who can behave like a teenager again and be like that at least without being shunned too much except of course for being obviously in a mid life crisis :P

Interesting that you also had a weight issue and things did change upon loosing that or were connected. Looking from the psychological (or "spiritual" if you like") side on it, I feel that these things are connected - one is lazy, afraid to be outgoing, sexually inactive, thus gains weight , thus is all of the above again - in part it may actually be as a friend of mine told me that I am putting up not just a mental shielding but also a physical one - against social and physical harm that can come from society in general (e.g. being called a "he) or from people in relationship. Of course now with the extra kilos I dont see the point in going out a lot or even looking at someone for a relationship or even "just sex" as I think of myself as too fat and unattractive, so thats a nice excuse. Guess htat has to go one way or the other (either not taking it as an excuse anymore or actually get rid of the kilos and not have that excuse anyways anymore).

The story is indeed powerful but also mystifies me a bit of course as it is so highly symbolic. But I really like it.