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I feel like (and it usually seems like the general consensus on here is) that it is easier for a female to look and act masculine than it is for a male to look and act feminine.

But, this morning (WARNING: I haven't had my coffee yet! :icon_caffine: ) I was thinking that I never see any butch women being portrayed in a positive way on American television, but I see plenty of feminine guys (gay and straight) on television and in the movies. Of course there was movies like GI Jane and Boys Don't Cry though there seems to be more mainstream shows with fem guys (Will & Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, home make over shows, Glee. . . )  I see lesbians on TV, but they're not really masculine lesbians. Maybe there's some shows on Bravo that feature butch women that I haven't seen or heard of.  But the mainstream shows that non-LGBT people and advocates watch tend to favor feminine guys over masculine women.

Why are there more femme guys out there, do people actually like guys being femme or are they just fun and trendy characters that make the perfect "buddy" for the lead female role? Why don't people like butch women, or is just having a "strong" female enough? Am I wrong, is there more butch women in the media than I am aware of? Do you think over time having feminine men being projected into people's livings rooms every week will make it eventually easier for MTFs or feminine men to be socially accepted?

butch women challenge male privilege in a way that femme guys don't. i think it might be easier for a woman to accept a guy who can be almost like a girl friend, than a woman who is more like a guy (who'd ever want to be a man??). feminists insist on women being at least equal to men, and a butch woman would go against some of their beliefs. men either don't find butch women attractive, or don't dare admit that they do.

there is an extreme pressure on women to be feminine, and it comes from both binary genders. i don't see the same pressure on guys, other than when his girlfriend complains he isn't manly enough. when a man shaves his legs, it might be weird or queer, but when a woman doesn't, it's suddenly considered ugly and unattractive.

i can find pretty many reasons why women don't want to present more masculine, which don't have to do with their own preferences.

i especially don't like how lesbians in the media are always femme. most probably are, but why not try to find those butch ones? probably because both men and women don't like the idea of a woman not being well groomed and proud of her own femininity.

Media. - kind of self explanatory.

Subject to my 'own' opinion - I believe we reside in a white man's world. As Taka mentioned, "butch women challenge male privilege in a way that femme guys don't." So it's of no surprise that Media freely portrays flaming gays as they are seemingly harmless to the straight man's kingdom - and having a gay friend is a novelty to the straight community anyways, parallel to carrying the latest trendy bag.

Whereas "dykes" like myself, is on a continuous battle to prove that we are equally masculine in every manner (other than the obvious,) and that our decisions to embark on such an painful journey to affirm our identity is more often than not, met with criticism, negativity and rhetoric questions. Why? Many men, not exposed to this culture, will find it difficult to accept butch women - because they fail to understand the mentality - to them it's just a joke and thus, just undermine everything you ever worked for.

Not a misandrist - just simply pointing out the ugly truth.

So yeah, when has the Media ever held in the best interests of females? Never.

Media is all about getting attention.

Butch women simply have no real value to media, so they don't end up getting much attention.

There isn't all that much that is radical about a butch woman.

Just saying that is my perspective on media.

I believe and likely will always believe, that in our male dominated world, a cliche cis female and a lesbian either version and a gay male and a transwoman might as well all be the same as far as the cis male world is concerned. Because if you are not a cliche male, you are something lesser. That is my take on how I perceive it.

The hardest part of transition for a FTM to make, likely comes from the fact that the cis male world is not very welcoming to anything not cis male and entirely masculine.

it's media, and as already said, media is about getting peoples attention and sell, its not nessesarry true or political correct.
even for those "what we consider proper media, like the news, it's still a marked where uninteresting news are seperated from the interesting news.
I think the whole point in feme guys over butch is cause it considered somehow more extreme" when a guy is girly than when a girl is boyish.
people usunally dont notice, or care much for the butch type so its less interesting.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 01, 2013, 06:56:29 AMI was thinking that I never see any butch women being portrayed in a positive way on American television, but I see plenty of feminine guys (gay and straight) on television and in the movies.

Easy: butch women and hard tomboys aren't sexy to 99.999% of straight men, and men write, produce, film, direct, draw, and concept how much of our media? And it's been that way since the dawn of civilization, so it's not like many of them face much in the way of outside pressure to evaluate their thinking habits and preferences for when they have to portray "average" and "normal" and "default" stuff. I don't even hear about straight trans* men dating butch-y women hardly ever.

Unfeminine women and trans-masculine AFABs of any gender are generally seen as wannabe-men or sad, incomplete men. Oy.

Quote from: Lo on September 02, 2013, 11:24:01 AM
I don't even hear about straight trans* men dating butch-y women hardly ever.

I have couple of transfriends who got something for butch women, personally it never really been my type, I like tomboy or nerdy, but still rather femme in a way.

I think the answer is actually pretty simple as Liam Erik and Lo said. Butch women simply aren't good enough eye candy.

As for why femme guys are portrayed more often, I think it's the sensational/humor/ironic factor. For some reason, butch women don't inspire the same reactions.

How would you classify the character Dr. Callie Torres in Grey's Anatomy?
I'd say she's likeable, butch, and bi.

In reality TV you have the trainer Jackie Warner in Workout

Or how about "Leather Tuscadero" from Happy Days

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchrystalovevintage.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F06%2Ftuscadero.jpg&hash=cae09c22afbb0ea66ff7ba28900e1586938ba826)

can we call Ellen butch?

She dresses sorta masculine, especially in formal wear at awards shows etc, and her wife is definitely way more femme than she is.

She is certainly a 'soft' butch if anything, so maybe that makes her safe for her audience.

Quote from: Jamie D on September 04, 2013, 03:44:32 PM
How would you classify the character Dr. Callie Torres in Grey's Anatomy?
I'd say she's likeable, butch, and bi.

In reality TV you have the trainer Jackie Warner in Workout

Or how about "Leather Tuscadero" from Happy Days

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchrystalovevintage.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F06%2Ftuscadero.jpg&hash=cae09c22afbb0ea66ff7ba28900e1586938ba826)

I haven't seen any of these shows (well it's been a very long time since I saw Happy Days and then only a few times) but after a quick search I wouldn't classify them as butch. That's one of the things about the media - it's okay to have a 'kick-ass' female character  (http://feministsatlarge.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/you-can-kick-ass-just-fit-into-the-costume/)or a lesbian as long as she's someone straight men want to bang.

Oh, also - I think the L-word is a good example of this bias. All of them (save for Shane) were super femme.

Shane even was masculine but not over the top. I did know straight women that said, "I would be gay for Shane."

Quote from: spacerace on September 04, 2013, 04:39:41 PM
Oh, also - I think the L-word is a good example of this bias. All of them (save for Shane) were super femme.

Shane even was masculine but not over the top. I did know straight women that said, "I would be gay for Shane."

I don't think Tasha was really a femme but Shane was indeed hot!

My guess is that femme guys are still a bit "mystical" in the media where butch women are just "there".  From what I've seen, femme guys tend to be the "comic relief".

Femme guys are def just comic relief. Butch women? There has been a butch woman on TV? GTFO! I have never seen it. I went out with, and almost married, a really butch woman, and most of my friends always asked me what the heck I was doing with her. Even my own family. I think butch women are tolerated, not accepted. If I dress masculine, i come off as a butch woman and people have no problem saying all kinds of rude things to me. Dressed as a guy I've been called a ->-bleeped-<-, a dyke, and whispered at profusely. I was called a dyke all the time pre-transition too so I'm used to it.

The above poster is right that it's because butch women are not attractive to cis males and that is basically why. I mean remember, Ellen just became popular recently. I remember her being the butt of jokes.

there are a few butch athletes who appear in the media from time to time. but they're not fictional characters, so it's not the same.

It is most likely that "Butch" women aren't found very interesting to the general population. Whenever I am out in public dressed as a woman people definetley notice since I am 6 feet tall, without heels. On the other hand a woman wearing a plaid flannel shirt, denim pants and boots is a common occurrence. Maybe writers rarely write any stories that include butch women. Also the network must satisfy the sponsors. What type of products do butch women mostly purchase? Male viewers may not want to watch butch women. It's OK if a butch mows the lawn, repairs the car, etc. However, she damn well had better prepare the food, wash the clothes and dishes, etc.

butch women will be more commonly seen when people just start realizing they aren't ugly, it's just our definition of female beauty that is wrong.

and, btw, just because i don't really understand gender concepts at all times... is this "woman" feminine enough? (turn on captions for subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d93gQ4ejfzM

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on September 05, 2013, 05:33:31 AM
It is most likely that "Butch" women aren't found very interesting to the general population. Whenever I am out in public dressed as a woman people definetley notice since I am 6 feet tall, without heels. On the other hand a woman wearing a plaid flannel shirt, denim pants and boots is a common occurrence. Maybe writers rarely write any stories that include butch women. Also the network must satisfy the sponsors. What type of products do butch women mostly purchase? Male viewers may not want to watch butch women. It's OK if a butch mows the lawn, repairs the car, etc. However, she damn well had better prepare the food, wash the clothes and dishes, etc.

By that logic, women in tshirts and jeans are REALLY interesting, and that just ain't true. If you get noticed wearing that, then it's because you're normatively pretty, not because you're a "hurr dyke".

There's a big difference, some kind of line that gets crossed, in between someone with a style like Ellen Degeneres, and someone like this:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2F236x%2F4c%2Fbe%2Fdd%2F4cbeddc9c16f037f630982881d897be9.jpg&hash=726d2f630c72b6d3cd583103db0bb80bab542462)

Quote from: Lo on September 05, 2013, 10:58:05 AM

There's a big difference, some kind of line that gets crossed, in between someone with a style like Ellen Degeneres, and someone like this:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2F236x%2F4c%2Fbe%2Fdd%2F4cbeddc9c16f037f630982881d897be9.jpg&hash=726d2f630c72b6d3cd583103db0bb80bab542462)

Yep. Not sure exactly where the line is or what tips it over, but you know it when you see it.
Ellen seems to be somewhat of an anomaly media-wise.

Well, I think with Ellen, is that, despite being a lesbian, she resonates more with "real" women. You know, we see so many heavily made up women on tv, but most every day women aren't like that. Most dress sort of like Ellen-comfy pants, flats, comfy shirts. They might not look quite as masculine as Ellen, but not as femme as the average female TV character. Shes more realistic.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 05, 2013, 01:15:41 PM
Well, I think with Ellen, is that, despite being a lesbian, she resonates more with "real" women. You know, we see so many heavily made up women on tv, but most every day women aren't like that. Most dress sort of like Ellen-comfy pants, flats, comfy shirts. They might not look quite as masculine as Ellen, but not as femme as the average female TV character. Shes more realistic.

Good point. Plus, she's not 'over-the-top' butch. Rosie is sort of the same - not femme, but not really butch either. And there does seem to be a market for 'everyday women' in talk shows, ie Oprah, Ricki Lake, Jenny, etc. (not that talk shows are as popular as they once were). Actually, looking at that list, talk shows may be one area where women don't have to exhibit the 'prescribed' female qualities - being stereotypically hot, bangable, straight, etc.

I think "the line" is small stuff. Muscle, no makeup, that shade the skin on the face takes when it's been out in the sun without sunscreen for a number of years (in men, this usually entails a life of hard labor), wearing things that aren't tailored to your body.

Under her masculine-styled (but undoubtedly for-female-bodied) clothes, Ellen's still got a pretty normative physique. She still wears makeup, even if its minimal (she has to, she's in the TV biz). She doesn't have a "weird" haircut or something shorter than a pixie. She's something that the "average" straight cis woman could still conceivably take fashion cues from. And maybe most importantly, she's not "off-putting" in the same way that a butch woman might be. Someone gruff or a little aggressive; someone that takes up space in the same way a cisman would.

This is actually a topic I have lots to say about. Feminist writing awaits...

First of all, it's important to note that butch =/= masculine and femme =/= feminine.

Secondly, masculinity and femininity are constructed in order to put men on top, and women at the bottom. Femininity, in particular, is enforced in order to make women subservient and pleasing to men, with masculinity being equated with dominance and control. Once you bear that in mind, the portrayal of feminine men and masculine women (or lack thereof) makes a lot of sense.

Feminine men become equated with men that want to please and be subservient to men, which is equated with being gay. Femininity in men is rarely played up positively unless it's clearly intended to be irony or a parody, but most of the time, they are regarded as a throwaway punchline rather than anything else - essentially, masculine men (even ones who aren't heterosexual) want to distance themselves from feminine men as much as they can; boiling them down to laughable stereotypes is the best way to do this.

As for masculine women, Taka is very much correct in saying "butch women challenge male privilege in a way that femme guys don't." By not conforming to femininity, they are, in effect, rejecting the male gaze. And because women are so often defined by their relationships with men, and the actions towards men, and nothing else, butch women are regarded as having little value. Ultimately, the age-old socially-held value that women are only valuable to the extent that they appeal to men still hold strong. That's why they're such a rarity in the media.

However, because masculinity is held up as gender-neutral in society, while femininity never is, a woman can 'get away' with more masculinity than a man can femininity without being labelled 'gender non-conforming'. Few bat an eyelid if, say, women wear jeans and a white T-shirt. But if a man wears even one feminine-coded item of clothing, that is often enough for him to be considered outright 'feminine'.

So in conclusion, basically masculine women have to deal with a lot more ->-bleeped-<- on the whole, but the amount of masculinity that needs to be expressed to be considered 'masculine' is greater.