Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am in the process of putting together resources for people interested in retransitioning to their birth gender and deciding if it is for them.  It would be great if there was a forum here for people making additional transitions after their first that I could link to.  I think that there are enough people starting to talk about this subject in a non judgmental way that a forum for this discussion would help a lot of people out.

I actually think this is a really good idea. I find that people who detransition, whether it's for practical reasons (as in, they can't find a job because of their trans status) or for personal reasons (they realized they weren't really trans at all) don't have a lot of support and have their own unique challenges.

I'm new here and joined the board in the hopes of finding some detransition resources/support/similar situations.

I was a MTF on prescribed HRT for nearly 2 years, and have *greatly* struggled since going off 2 years ago. If anybody has any good links, or threads, forums, I'm all ears :)

I would like to see this too (obviously). Although the Non-Op has been my haunt for the last few years. ;)

Actually let me clarify. I would like to see a section of the site for non-transitioners and re-transitioners. They will need a lot of the same kind of support. It could even be a subheading under non-op

Not to say you shouldn't get your new blog just for re-transitioners.

Yes I think both would be helpful.  Does anyone review these requests?  Just curious what the protocol would be to get either of these happening?

The Forum Administrator set up a "Non-transitioning Board" under the main Transgender Talk board.

Quote from: retransition on October 15, 2013, 03:23:07 PM
Yes I think both would be helpful.  Does anyone review these requests?  Just curious what the protocol would be to get either of these happening?

Yes we review them!

Give me an argument why it doesn't fit under Non-transitioning and I'll consider it. We have space limitations that is the reason for not just doing it.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy on January 21, 2014, 01:16:20 AM
Yes we review them!

Give me an argument why it doesn't fit under Non-transitioning and I'll consider it. We have space limitations that is the reason for not just doing it.

Cindy

Maybe because non-transitioning doesn't really include detrans. I mean, it's one thing to decide not to pursue transition, but it's a lot different to go down that path and then reverse direction. I would imagine that would be a very difficult and painful experience.

I would support it.

I agree with the reasoning, I think that someone undergoing a physical detransition is different from someone who never went through the process in the first place.

I think detransition is something that needs to be talked about. Sometimes, people do either need to detransition for practical reasons (and might need support and coping tips), and sometimes, they weren't really meant to transition in the first place (in which case, they still need to figure themselves out all over again). In the case of those who weren't really trans, it might help newcomers who aren't sure balance things out - maybe they have other issues going on and need to see both sides of the story, you know?

Sub under non-transitioning?

Yeah, I can see that making sense. In a way it's...not transitioning to the other sex, since you go back and therefore return to your somewhat original state.

Done
I modified Non-transition to include de-transition. It saves me space and feels OK to me

I think that was a good idea actually...both would be too tiny on their own now that I think of it.

Quote from: caleb. on January 21, 2014, 04:35:05 AM
I think that was a good idea actually...both would be too tiny on their own now that I think of it.

That's what I thought as well.

OMG do staff think!!! Cindy falls into a brown paper bag and disappears


Heeee Heeeee

The thing is, retransitioning and not transitioning are totally different things.  Retransition has more in common with transitioning in the first place.  You have to change documents.  You have to worry about hormone related changes (e.g., after taking T, will I be stuck with a guy voice?).  There is a social transition and worries about passing as ones originally assigned gender.  There are hormone questions.  Etc, etc, etc. 

What does this have to do with non-transitioning?  Nothing that I can discern.  It seems quite the opposite.

I appreciate and applaud the willingness to address the issue in a more open way.  I think that's a very good thing.  But putting it into the non-transitioning forum seems like putting a discussion of aquarium maintenance into a forum about desert travel.  And certainly it seems unlikely to help people in that situation to find I one another or their issues.  Perhaps it would make sense to reach out to the original poster and ask for input? 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 21, 2014, 07:00:45 AM
The thing is, retransitioning and not transitioning are totally different things.  Retransition has more in common with transitioning in the first place.  You have to change documents.  You have to worry about hormone related changes (e.g., after taking T, will I be stuck with a guy voice?).  There is a social transition and worries about passing as ones originally assigned gender.  There are hormone questions.  Etc, etc, etc. 

What does this have to do with non-transitioning?  Nothing that I can discern.  It seems quite the opposite.

I appreciate and applaud the willingness to address the issue in a more open way.  I think that's a very good thing.  But putting it into the non-transitioning forum seems like putting a discussion of aquarium maintenance into a forum about desert travel.  And certainly it seems unlikely to help people in that situation to find I one another or their issues.  Perhaps it would make sense to reach out to the original poster and ask for input?

Retransition may have its own issues, but it, like transitioning, is temporary in nature.  One does not transition nor retransition forever - they have a final state. 

The next state of a retransitioner might very well be temporary as they wait for another opportunity to transition or it may be non-transitioning as it is with me.  If this is the case, they need the same support a non-transitioner does - how to live with GD without transition. 

In my experience most who retransition (and I have known many) become non-transitioning.  We usually have our own little nooks on the internet because transitioning individuals like to tell us they have the only way and throw doubt on our authenticity as transsexuals/transgendered individuals if we don't agree. ;)  Another discussion for another time though.

So while it might deserve its own attention, ultimately support can be found from other places on this board.  Still, I have no problem with its inclusion.

Shouldn't we be having this discussion on the new board? ;)

As someone who detransitioned after 26 months on HRT I can confirm it is a terrible process, or it was for me. Retransitioning some 22 years later hasn't been without it's hurdles either!

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 23, 2014, 08:40:14 PM
Shouldn't we be having this discussion on the new board? ;)

As someone who detransitioned after 26 months on HRT I can confirm it is a terrible process, or it was for me. Retransitioning some 22 years later hasn't been without it's hurdles either!

How come you decided to detranstion? I'm just wondering. The subject fascinates me. I think the problem is that a lot of times if someone decides to detransition, they often drop out of the community and want nothing to do with it. I know if I decided to stop, I would cut all of my new friends and BF off and act like this never happened and would wipe Susans and all my posts and this whole experience from memory. FYI, If my avatar goes to guest and I become a ghost here, I detransitioned. If I'm just annoyed or need a break, no matter how long, I would keep my avatar active and just log off. I wouldn't erase myself.

Did you do the whole "it wasn't me" thing or how did you approach life after. You probably have some very unique insights to offer. Thanks!

I did write about it in some detail in some post somewhere but I can't find it just at the moment so can't link to it. Essentially it was a perfect storm of variables, unhappy with progress on HRT (two years and tiny, tiny bumps for boobs), feeling emotionally and financially insecure, afraid to come out to my family, being alone, alienated and professionally unsupported...a whole bunch of things.

This was the early 1990s, there may have been a community in Sydney, but there wasn't anything online (no internet to speak of) and I wasn't part of anything. But yes, I did cut myself off from the notion of being trans*, decided I must have been delusional and went into denial. I'm ashamed to say I became transphobic and even homophobic, not in any overt way - I kept that to myself, certainly never turned it into a manifesto against others but it was still a reprehensible attitude. It's the only way I could "prove" there was "nothing wrong" with myself. Sad, sad, sad.

Even though I've been thinking about retransitioning for the last 14 years, it was those attitudes and the memory of the last attempt that kept me away. But the desire, the raw need to be a woman won out in the end. It was either retransition or drown myself in anti-depressants. So here I am, 7 months in on HRT and wondering why the hell it took me so long to pull my head out if my a$$!

Grace, there is nothing "wrong" with you!  You are a human being with a personality, a gender identity, and natural right to be yourself.  I am sorry that social expectations served to stunt your growth.  It happened to me too.  Slowly, but surely, I am feeling better about myself, thanks to people like you.  :)

Jamie

Thanks Jamie. Yes, fortunately I realise that now but it took me a long, long time to come to terms with it. Each step in the journey, each step in the journey... :)

I'd strongly recommend never stopping HRT cold and always have medical supervision. I stopped cold first time around and was an utter mess for over two weeks, digestive problems, emotional upheaval and lactation. None of it was pretty! There may have been other effects too, a wonder I didn't accidentally kill myself. My body never regained the same degree if body hair thickness, what glandular development I had breast wise never went away, areas like my hips remained feminised. Unfortunately my hair started thinning.

Quote from: Cindy on January 21, 2014, 01:16:20 AM
Yes we review them!

Give me an argument why it doesn't fit under Non-transitioning and I'll consider it. We have space limitations that is the reason for not just doing it.

Cindy

Hi Cindy - thanks so much for doing this. I wasn't trying to be snarky - I was just wondering if anyone actually saw my request.  I know you are all volunteers and your time is limited sometimes - thanks for getting to this.

If you feel it works best under the non-transitioning board I respect that.  As a few other people on this thread have noted, while for some there might be some shared issues between non-transitioners and detransitioners/retransitioners there are many issues that are really unique to detransitioners/retransitioners.  Someone on this thread commented that a detransition/retransition is a "temporary state".  That would be great but I have a feeling that I will be "retransitioning" (my prefered term) the rest of my life to some degree.  Although I love the idea of there being a finite destination (and I can see why the commenter would assume that there is one) I am not expecting such a thing.

There are many different things that lead a person to consider a detransition/retransition.  Social pressures, religious beliefs, family and maybe a self-identity that comes back to embracing one's natal sex.  For most it is probably some combination of some of these issues, although there may be some for whom only one of the above (or something else altogether) is the primary motivator.

In my case, although I have had some gender confusion in the past, I do not identify at all as a female even though physically I am post-op MTF.  I know that other people who go back to their birth gender for their public identity, inside they still identify as the opposite gender. That is a going to make a pretty big difference in what issues these two types are going to be concerned with in terms of making sense of their identity.  Still, there are areas regarding how to deal with "practical" matters that are common to both types: The bathroom thing all over again, problems "passing", how to feel confidence in appearance and gender expression, how to reintegrate into a gender, how to advocate for those who choose or are interested in detransition/retransition in a way that is non-harmful towards other people's identities  ... I could go on and on.  Again, from my perspective this is not a natural fit under "non-transitioning" but for now I am happy to just see it living somewhere here at Susans.  I commend your doing this and I am sincerely thankful.
I will try to spend more time here (I actually have been around again recently but only in private messaging.)  I am also planning on doing a online powerpoint presentation (ideally in next day or two) of things that I think would be helpful for people to understand about detransition/retransition and the areas where I think bringing this subject into the light a little bit more would be very helpful to some.  I will share a link when I do it in the new forum.
Best,
Joel

I have to admit that I am getting rather unsettled by some of the posts showing up since the "detransition" heading was added to this forum and this topic was moved here.  We have one person asking for advice on "how to detransition" because (the persons number 1 reason), they just feel too lazy to go forward.  We have other pronouncements that retransitioning is just a temporary pause or step back for a person who really will go forward with transition in the future.  I'm reading this and I'm not saying anything, but I am cringing and it is bothering me.  In part because I wonder whether some of these things are serious or are an attempt to make light of retransition experiences.  I also wonder whether people seriously equate being "lazy" with the experience of a person who goes through all the difficulties of one transition and then finds themselves needing to do it again.

Since day one on this site, I have been fairly clear in saying that I don't find transman/transwoman dichotomies to be adequate descriptions of me and there have been at least a couple of threads in which I have come right out and told people that there are some things about myself that I do not wish to discuss.  So it could be that I am a little bit oversensitive to all of this because the whole topic of retransitioning hits a little too close to home and risks "outing" me about certain of my own issues that I have learned not to discuss with trans* people.  But no matter how you slice it, although I do agree with retransition that is important to discuss these issues, and the fact of discussing them at all is a step forward, I also find myself feeling ill at ease about how this is starting out and fearful that this may not go in a positive direction.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 26, 2014, 12:52:07 AM
I have to admit that I am getting rather unsettled by some of the posts showing up since the "detransition" heading was added to this forum and this topic was moved here.  We have one person asking for advice on "how to detransition" because (the persons number 1 reason), they just feel too lazy to go forward.  We have other pronouncements that retransitioning is just a temporary pause or step back for a person who really will go forward with transition in the future.  I'm reading this and I'm not saying anything, but I am cringing and it is bothering me.  In part because I wonder whether some of these things are serious or are an attempt to make light of retransition experiences.  I also wonder whether people seriously equate being "lazy" with the experience of a person who goes through all the difficulties of one transition and then finds themselves needing to do it again.

Since day one on this site, I have been fairly clear in saying that I don't find transman/transwoman dichotomies to be adequate descriptions of me and there have been at least a couple of threads in which I have come right out and told people that there are some things about myself that I do not wish to discuss.  So it could be that I am a little bit oversensitive to all of this because the whole topic of retransitioning hits a little too close to home and risks "outing" me about certain of my own issues that I have learned not to discuss with trans* people.  But no matter how you slice it, although I do agree with retransition that is important to discuss these issues, and the fact of discussing them at all is a step forward, I also find myself feeling ill at ease about how this is starting out and fearful that this may not go in a positive direction.

An interesting point.

But ultimately we are a support site. There are many posts I do not agree with and I often comment on my point of view in them.

But in reality we are all different, we walk different paths, no ones opinion is right or wrong, they are a reflection of our souls.

As long as the rules that I work under are not infringed then any opinion is valid.

Thanks for having this subforum. I always thought that this forum is the conservative type.

Quote from: Cindy on January 26, 2014, 01:00:26 AM
An interesting point.

But ultimately we are a support site. There are many posts I do not agree with and I often comment on my point of view in them.

But in reality we are all different, we walk different paths, no ones opinion is right or wrong, they are a reflection of our souls.

As long as the rules that I work under are not infringed then any opinion is valid.

I agree wholeheartedly with most of this.  No one support site can meet all needs.  But at the same time, I spend a lot of time worrying about "what is support?"  Clearly, some opinions are viewed by the administration of this site as being right or wrong.  I've been informed that posting anything by Cathy Brennan is not allowed.  And transphobic opinions are not welcome.  That's not a criticism.  Allowing those things (especially the transphobic junk) would ruin the ability to get support here and thereby undermine the whole purpose of this site. 

But if we're going to open up discussion about retransition here, then it might also be worth giving some thought to what sorts of things would ruin the ability of people for whom the topic is relevant to get support that they need.  There are some things about this topic that are very similar to most other trans* people.  But others that are different.  One difference lies in the fact that just as trans* people are often misunderstood and stigmatized in the larger world, so too are retransitioners misunderstood and stigmatized by the trans* community.  Retransitioners can face a lot of hostility.

All of this is said with the full understanding that, as already noted, I may be over sensitive to this because it hits too close to home on some of my personal issues that I do not feel comfortable sharing in this forum and therefore do not want to get "outed" about.

The only other thing I disagree with is that when I disagree with a post, I usually don't say anything at all. :)  But I only mention that in the spirit of smiling.  It is relevant to nothing.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 26, 2014, 12:52:07 AM
But no matter how you slice it, although I do agree with retransition that is important to discuss these issues, and the fact of discussing them at all is a step forward, I also find myself feeling ill at ease about how this is starting out and fearful that this may not go in a positive direction.

I think your post did a good job of explaining a lot of the nuances of this issue and the difficulties in talking about it because of the varied emotional reactions (and, for some a lack of understanding) of this subject. I guess another reason why this topic would be better served with its own forum is that it probably should have some sort of stated "trigger" warning.  Another possibility would be to establish some ground rules for appropriate topics for conversation. Some detransitioners go on to become very angry with the trans movement and seek to eliminate it.  In full disclosure, I too have become skeptical of some of the more common beliefs about gender shared by many within the trans community.  I do not believe your forums would be an appropriate venue to talk about this stuff.  But I do think it is helpful to have a place where people can see that there isn't always a "final destination" and be able to talk about options on what a retransition could actually look like.  And lastly, I have to say that I am thankful to this site for reminding me of how many really wonderful people are part of the trans community. Although I push back against what I consider to be the closed mindedness of some of the "louder" voices in the general trans community when I come to these forums I find people who have the same goals as myself - to be authentic for themselves, to live in a way that is supportive of others and, finally, to be respectful to others and mindful that we all have our own "truths".

Retransition, your posts seem to me to be consistently thoughtful and reasonable.  I agree with everything you said above, especially the idea of a trigger warning. 

I am curious about the skepticisms you have developed.  I too have developed some, and I wonder whether ours are similar.  But I also think that the trans* community has come a long way in its thinking since the 1990s and it is still rapidly evolving.  And those with what one might call non-standard trans* identities are an important part of that evolution.  Although this forum may not be the appropriate forum for those thoughts, I hope that you will find a forum that you consider appropriate so that those thoughts can be added to the conversation,

Many topics about detransition/retransition will be uncomfortable. If that not allowed to talked then what is the point? I need support as well.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 26, 2014, 09:30:13 PM
Retransition, your posts seem to me to be consistently thoughtful and reasonable.  I agree with everything you said above, especially the idea of a trigger warning. 

I am curious about the skepticisms you have developed.  I too have developed some, and I wonder whether ours are similar.  But I also think that the trans* community has come a long way in its thinking since the 1990s and it is still rapidly evolving.  And those with what one might call non-standard trans* identities are an important part of that evolution.  Although this forum may not be the appropriate forum for those thoughts, I hope that you will find a forum that you consider appropriate so that those thoughts can be added to the conversation,

I agree that the trans community has evolved enough that we are ready to talk about this stuff. You are welcome to message me if you want.  I have been blogging about my feelings on my site retransition.org (http://retransition.org) and have connected with others who have similar feelings through there.  As far as my skepticism - your question prompted me to write a long reply that I ultimately decided was not appropriate for Susan's. I will be posting it on my site today or tomorrow.

Quote from: bingunginter on January 27, 2014, 05:57:11 AM
Many topics about detransition/retransition will be uncomfortable. If that not allowed to talked then what is the point? I need support as well.

What is the point? Maybe just to create a meeting place where people who are curious about this can find others who are as well.  Or as a vehicle to share resources or to create new resources if we need to. And just to let people know that is ok to feel this way and promote some understanding. I think honest conversations have to happen, but those can be done through private messages or maybe somewhere else. 

I think there is still plenty of relatively non-controversial stuff that can be discussed openly.  I could be wrong.

My thought when I saw this new subforum, my reaction was happy and suprised. I thought this forum has become more open minded. Finally I can share my non-standard trans experience and trouble, but alas no I'm hoping too much.
Discussion through private message can be done but can't beat having hundreds (thousand?) people in this community to bring input and support. Truth is there a not much other trans forums to discuss it, likely it will be shut down there as well. Those 'controversial' stuff is what largely define my live, its hard to effectively discuss stuff if the majority of it can not be talked. While I always keep searching for a place for me, I still have hopes for this community.

Well I am just a visitor here too so I can't tell you what or what not to post.  I agree with everything you have said. There are moderators here - there is nothing stopping you from posting what you want and helping establish what the boundaries are of what we can and can't talk about here.

retransitioner, thanks for responding to my trouble. I already sent a message to the mod & admin, hopefully the situation will be improved.

Good to hear bingunginter. I think we are getting closer to the point where conversations like the ones I know you need to have will be more accepted. How we all get to that point is probably going to be rocky at times. I applaud Susan's for taking this initial step which many trans online communities are still too afraid to touch. 

Quote from: retransition on January 27, 2014, 05:31:39 PM
I agree that the trans community has evolved enough that we are ready to talk about this stuff. You are welcome to message me if you want.  I have been blogging about my feelings on my site retransition.org (http://retransition.org) and have connected with others who have similar feelings through there.  As far as my skepticism - your question prompted me to write a long reply that I ultimately decided was not appropriate for Susan's. I will be posting it on my site today or tomorrow.

If you are the person behind retransition.org, then we have talked before.  I wrote a comment about my org being inclusive of retransitioners and you emailed me to ask about it.  It's a small world.  :)

Anyway, I read your post.  Since you don't want to discuss it here, I will only say that I agree with it in part and disagree in part.  I might take you up on the opportunity to message you here.  But I also feel that it is unfortunate that we cannot have that discussion in this forum.  I do not blame you for being reluctant to have it.  There are some people who just are not ready to hear certain things.  There are things I pull my punches on too.  There is one particular thread I wish I had never started on this site and I'd probably delete my original post in it if I thought I could get away without making the mods mad at me.  But I also feel like it's important to state challenging ideas, and I do it regardless of whether it might earn me a smite.  It's a true balancing act and hard to know where the balance lies. 

I would have preferred to have posted my response here in this forum, I just worry about pushing the envelope too far too fast.  I would love to hear your thoughts about what you agreed with and what you disagreed with.  Let me do this - let me send my post to an admin and see if I can repost it here (or post some of it here.)  It would help me to have more of a dialogue about this stuff.  My views are not set in stone and I am still figuring a lot of stuff out.

ThePhoenix - I am going to post my response to your earlier question about why I am "skeptical" about some aspects of the traditional trans "talking points" as I originally intended, in this forum. It will follow this post.  A moderator reviewed has it and gave me the greenlight.  I also let them know that I understand if they re-evaluate their decision.  I appreciate Susan's.org being willing to try this out.

Sorry I haven't followed up on my earlier email - I had some personal issues that sidetracked me and I found myself taking an unanticipated "break" from blogging and checking my blog related email account. I am trying to catch up. Tonight I did get a chance to start reading your posts here and appreciate your honesty and willingness to publicly share some of your soul searching.  I know it can be difficult and sometimes being so honest puts one in a particularly vulnerable position. Thank you for being brave and thank you for not asking for your thread to be removed.

A lot of effort has been put into maintaining certain "talking points" meant to promote social acceptance of trans identities. A problem occurs when storylines and theories that are aligned with the prefered trans narrative are pushed to the front while those that are problematic and "messy" are minimized or erased. Although this strategy seems to be working in the short term. Many governmental agencies, organizations and private sector businesses, in their sincere desire to embrace diversity, are looking to the trans community for assistance in how "gender" is to be codified.   This is all good up to a point. The problem is that most people have strong feelings about what "gender" means to them. You can't mandate someone's personal beliefs of what it means to be "truly" a man or truly a woman, although you can  provide information and real life interaction that, in some cases, will bring new understandings of gender to some individuals.  And we need to continue make and refine laws that do the best they can to ensure the safety and human rights of all people, trans and non trans, are respected and protected.  To get there we need to have a fair and open discussion that includes some of the "messy" stuff that many within the trans community work hard to bury.

Where I live (in California) we have a law that officially declares that sexual identity is completely separate from gender identity. A lot of very intelligent non trans people now repeat that as fact. For me I have only recently begun to accept that, in my case they are intertwined.  I am pretty confident that there are others who are afraid to look at this possibility for themselves because of the stigma  associated with this, in society and sadly within the trans community itself. As I have been switching over bank accounts and my identification to reclaim my original official gender designation I always ask if the person who is doing it if they have seen someone returning to their original gender status. I am always told yes and when I spoke to the California Department of Motor Vehicles office that handles gender change (they needed some additional documentation so I had to talk to the main office) the woman I spoke to said that she sees a lot of people going back now.

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition. Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out". The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning. I know it was hard for me to get to that point – especially since my original transition was my proudest accomplishment in life at that time. I worked hard for it. I knew though to move forward I had to let all of that go. My proudly earned "reward" bought through the losing of friends, the worries of my family, hours of painful procedures, surgery, thousands of hours of time, tens of thousands of dollars spent – I realized I didn't want it anymore.

What was maybe hardest of all to give up was the respect I had earned from people who knew what I went through during my transition to "be myself" and admired me for it.  These were the people, trans and non trans, that stuck with me and gave me the love and support and much of themselves to help me in my transition – I now had to go back to them and say something lame like "I'm just a guy after all". (Unlike the popular trans talking points that most non trans people know and understand these days there is no easy way to tell my story.)

I also think that a lot of transwomen have lost site of real and legitimate concerns of non trans women in regards to their own personal safety and psychological well being. I hate to admit this but I have to be honest— this is making me feel more and more uncomfortable being associated with the trans community. I don't define myself as a feminist but I can understand the reasons why there are many women (and this is not just restricted to feminists or radical feminists) who are sincerely uncomfortable with transwomen in female gendered spaces and this is something that we need to keep talking about and negotiating with all of the stakeholders in this conversation.

I see more and more transwomen defining their penis as a "female organ", yet these same people fail to empathize with natal women (hell even other transwomen for that matter) who are now expected to be ok with potentially seeing a fully erect penis in a women's  locker room . Right now a prominent "gender activist" is setting out to debunk a story that surfaced of such a thing happening. (The report appeared in a letter submitted to an advice column in Toronto.)  Even though it now appears that there really was a woman who filed a complaint about this incident to her local YMCA, a lot of LGBT media is still repeating the accusation that the columnist and his paper deliberately fabricated this letter as part of some dark "transmisogynistic" conspiracy, thus tarnishing the name and reputation of the  journalist and his paper.  Of course, we don't know exactly what happened in that locker room and we can't be certain that the woman's accusations are correct.  The columnist, in his original column recognized this and, after writing some respectful things about trans people, went on to say that IF what she was reporting was correct, this was extremely rare. He was emphatic in expressing his opinion that transwomen are women "full stop" and have the absolute right to be in that locker room but stated the obvious—that the behavior she was reporting, IF true, was unacceptable.

Human biology being what it is, something like this is eventually going to happen and at that point we are all going to need to have an honest conversation. (Another common talking point is that once a transwoman starts HRT  the penis itself shrinks and no longer can become erect. For some this is true – but for many others, well ... not so much.) You can only go on censoring these types of stories for so long. Some of them are going to be true so I don't see discussing an advice column discussing how to handle this in a way that is respectful to both trans and non trans people is something we need to censor.

The most troubling aspect of this now being dismissed as a "trans-hoax" is the fact that I can't rule out the possibility that there is a woman who experienced something traumatic and the fact that the experience is now being "erased" and ridiculed.  Until we are absolutely sure this woman is "fictional" why would someone want to risk the possibility of victimizing a woman a second time?  How can anyone be ok with that?  Why would someone be comfortable risking doing that to someone?

I know that I am focusing on transwomen in this post but there is a reason for that. Being a pre-op/non-op transwoman being completely nude and visible in a women's locker room is fundamentally different than a pre-op/non-op transman in a men's. This is something that can't be legislated.  I am fairly certain that a naked and exposed pre-op/non-op transman in a men's locker room is likely to be worried about getting raped by the other men around him.  I don't think that the transwoman has the same concerns (although she might risk getting beaten up.)  It is important for me to add that I think that the majority of pre-op/non-op transwomen would be horrified to be seen by other women this way and are "modest"  and respectful enough to avoid these situations.  But when transwomen make the argument that they are no different in any significant way from a natal woman or that a transman is exactly the same thing as a natal man I have to challenge that.

I still identify as trans. I don't really have a choice.  My history is trans. My evolution is trans.   When I meet someone I never know if I am going to get "sirred" or "ma'amed" because of the mixed gender cues my body gives them. I am reluctantly once again taking the first steps down the path of surgical  and hormonal intervention (even though I am tired of changing my body) to help me provide  people with more queues that I wish to be recognized as male so I feel I have a legitimate stake in this discussion.  It is popular right now to talk about how trans people are "invisible" to society and communities, meaning that their needs are never taken into consideration by others. A noted trans activist has written a book called "Excluded" about this phenomenon within a specific community.   If it were only me and my trans experience that was being erased I would probably just say "f*** it" and go it alone.  But I can't help but think back to my experience with the DMV and the fact that I know there are other people out there detransitioning.  Right now they are "invisible" but  I know they are out there and they probably need some place to talk about this. I am starting to hear some of the voices of those who feel  too intimidated to talk about some of the more "messy" issues associated with trans identity, the ones that don't fit comfortably within the prefered storyline.  They need to see more people openly talking about this stuff in a way that is affirming of their own identities and beliefs.  So that is why I continue to encourage others to talk about these issues in a way that is honest yet mindful of the importance of protecting the safety of  members of the trans community and the larger community all of us people are a part of.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition. Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out". The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning.t

This is so true! I've met several MTF whose gender shifted....after being 5, 10 or even 20 years post SRS.

The problem is.....is openly admitting this can make  'fresh' MTF uncertain about their very own (future) decisions and can affect their very ID.

When 'one on one'  some post op MTF tell me something different from what they write online on TS forums...

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 03:57:26 AM
ThePhoenix - I am going to post my response to your earlier question about why I am "skeptical" about some aspects of the traditional trans "talking points" as I originally intended, in this forum. It will follow this post.  A moderator reviewed has it and gave me the greenlight.  I also let them know that I understand if they re-evaluate their decision.  I appreciate Susan's.org being willing to try this out.

I'm glad they gave you the green light.  I would be surprised and disappointed if they changed the decision.  My only (very minor) quibble would be that it might have made more sense to make a new thread.

My only concern is that there might be a negative reaction from some people and that might dissuade you from candor later.  But you also may be surprised.  There are quite a few trans* spectrum individuals out there who appreciate it when someone speaks truth.  Even unpopular truths sometimes draw a reaction like "I've been wishing someone would say that!"

It's sort of my thing to try and make the trans* community a mor inclusive space.  I often very explicitly acknowledge that part of my "job" as a community organizer and activist is teaching cis people about trans* people.  Something  I'm less willing to say is that it also involves teaching trans* people about trans* people.  Usually without them knowing that I'm doing it.  So I am no moderator, and I won't try to moderate anything (I spend enough time doing that offline).  But I am a person who totally supports you being in the space.  Heavens, you sound like you might be one of the few people who grasps that some of my posts have a slightly different meaning from that given to them by most transmen and transwomen, so I would appreciate having someone around who "gets it!" :)

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
A lot of effort has been put into maintaining certain "talking points" meant to promote social acceptance of trans identities. A problem occurs when storylines and theories that are aligned with the prefered trans narrative are pushed to the front while those that are problematic and "messy" are minimized or erased. Although this strategy seems to be working in the short term. Many governmental agencies, organizations and private sector businesses, in their sincere desire to embrace diversity, are looking to the trans community for assistance in how "gender" is to be codified.   This is all good up to a point. The problem is that most people have strong feelings about what "gender" means to them. You can't mandate someone's personal beliefs of what it means to be "truly" a man or truly a woman, although you can  provide information and real life interaction that, in some cases, will bring new understandings of gender to some individuals.  And we need to continue make and refine laws that do the best they can to ensure the safety and human rights of all people, trans and non trans, are respected and protected.  To get there we need to have a fair and open discussion that includes some of the "messy" stuff that many within the trans community work hard to bury.

Trans* activists often bury the reality of anyone other than a classic 1990s vintage binary trans* person.  I suspect part if the reason is generational--most advocates seem to be older.  When they were coming up, there was no such thing as a non-binary, genderqueer identity.  That's interesting to me because I suspect the difference between many binary trans* people and many genderqueer people is one of age, not identity.  Most trans* people who identify themselves as binary do not seem to express themselves in a remotely binary way.  Of course I cannot know what is in someone's head, but the expression of identity being non-binary makes me wonder if the identity is really so binary after all.  But advocating to the public, or to politicians, or even to trans* people about non-binary identities tends to make people's heads explode.  So the easy thing to do is bury them.  Some activists will even be pretty candid and expressly state that.  The problem with that is it does tend to erase and exclude people, and it does tend to conflict with reality. 

Then there is the discussion of retransition.  The idea of "what if you change your mind?" is often used against trans* people to try and make trans* identities less real, less sincere, and more frivolous.  But reality is often a lot less clean cut than people like.  Some people are going to go through transition a second time.  Personally, I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it captures the reality that some people even go through transition more than twice.  This can happen for many reasons.  The genderqueer community has taught us that there is such a thing as gender fluidity, for example, when a person's gender identity shifts over time.  A person's transitional status could also shift to follow that identity.  There is a classic "failed transition" narrative too where a person finds that they could not live in the new gender role so they went back.  I could go on, but this post will be long enough as it is and I trust that my point--that there are many reasons why a person might find themselves on the transition road more than once. 

The reality of multiple transitions is something that also scares the public and the politicians in much the same way that non-binary identities do.  It implies that the boy and girl boxes are not static and a person might not simply move from one box to another and then stay there.  But by failing to discuss that issue, the community does a disservice to its members.  It leaves those who will one day be on the road a second (or more) time out of the discussion.  It also fails to present a complete picture of the palette of options out there.  And it is perhaps less than honest with itself.  My way of describing my own identity is simple:  this works for me now, so I go with it, but I do not presume to know what will happen in the future.  I think that's honest and real. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Where I live (in California) we have a law that officially declares that sexual identity is completely separate from gender identity.

I don't understand this statement.  I've never heard of such a law.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
A lot of very intelligent non trans people now repeat that as fact. For me I have only recently begun to accept that, in my case they are intertwined.  I am pretty confident that there are others who are afraid to look at this possibility for themselves because of the stigma  associated with this, in society and sadly within the trans community itself. As I have been switching over bank accounts and my identification to reclaim my original official gender designation I always ask if the person who is doing it if they have seen someone returning to their original gender status. I am always told yes and when I spoke to the California Department of Motor Vehicles office that handles gender change (they needed some additional documentation so I had to talk to the main office) the woman I spoke to said that she sees a lot of people going back now.

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition.

The only statistics on retransition that I am aware of coke from follow-up studies of trans* people conducted some years after SRS.  These studies do report very low rates of dissatisfaction and retransition.  But they also suffer from some problems.  One is the fact that they only count those who have gone through SRS, but SRS is unavailable to many trans* people.  As a consequence, they are only studying a small part of the trans* community and the results are likely not representative of the community as a whole.  Another is the difficulty in tracking people.  They tend to disappear.  So a large portion of the data tends to be "unknown". Of course if it is unknown, then we don't know what the result is and cannot make a good assumption about it.

To me, this makes it difficult to know how many people go back their assigned-at-birth gender.  Do you have any other info?

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out".

Many people do think this way, but not all do. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning. I know it was hard for me to get to that point – especially since my original transition was my proudest accomplishment in life at that time. I worked hard for it. I knew though to move forward I had to let all of that go.

I wonder the same thing.  If coming out takes a lot of courage, then coming out as wrong about coming out takes even more.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
My proudly earned "reward" bought through the losing of friends, the worries of my family, hours of painful procedures, surgery, thousands of hours of time, tens of thousands of dollars spent – I realized I didn't want it anymore.

This shouldn't be hard for people to understand.  Any time people invest tons of time, resources, energy, and emotion into something, it becomes like a part of you.  It can be hard to give up. 

Here is a totally non-trans* related example in my own life:  I am a lawyer.  I invested over $100,000 in my education.  I went to school for three years and practiced for about ten.  I was very proud of it.  I made it a part if who I was.  But coming out as trans* in my profession destroyed that.  I'll probably never get it back, but yet I cannot stop trying.  I have friends urging me to go into the foreign service instead.  They make sure I get a chance to practice what it would be like (just yesterday, for example, I was a speaker and dialogue participant for a delegation of Central and South American LGBT activists).  I'm having a wonderful time being a diplomat of sorts.  But it takes a piece out of me to give up being a lawyer.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
What was maybe hardest of all to give up was the respect I had earned from people who knew what I went through during my transition to "be myself" and admired me for it.  These were the people, trans and non trans, that stuck with me and gave me the love and support and much of themselves to help me in my transition – I now had to go back to them and say something lame like "I'm just a guy after all".

I would hope that at least some of them would grasp how much courage that took.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
(Unlike the popular trans talking points that most non trans people know and understand these days there is no easy way to tell my story.)

I for one would be interested in hearing whatever you wanted to share of it.  I hope that others would share that sentiment.  But there's no pressure.  Not everyone wants to share their stories (I don't like telling mine).

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I also think that a lot of transwomen have lost site of real and legitimate concerns of non trans women in regards to their own personal safety and psychological well being. I hate to admit this but I have to be honest— this is making me feel more and more uncomfortable being associated with the trans community. I don't define myself as a feminist but I can understand the reasons why there are many women (and this is not just restricted to feminists or radical feminists) who are sincerely uncomfortable with transwomen in female gendered spaces and this is something that we need to keep talking about and negotiating with all of the stakeholders in this conversation.

I agree that the feeling unsafe is real.  I'm not so sure I agree that it is legitimate.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I see more and more transwomen defining their penis as a "female organ", yet these same people fail to empathize with natal women (hell even other transwomen for that matter) who are now expected to be ok with potentially seeing a fully erect penis in a women's  locker room .

Who is expecting women to be okay with this?  I'm sure there might be a fringe element out there that this this, but I have not heard this view espoused.  Certainly not by anyone credible. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Right now a prominent "gender activist" is setting out to debunk a story that surfaced of such a thing happening. (The report appeared in a letter submitted to an advice column in Toronto.)  Even though it now appears that there really was a woman who filed a complaint about this incident to her local YMCA, a lot of LGBT media is still repeating the accusation that the columnist and his paper deliberately fabricated this letter as part of some dark "transmisogynistic" conspiracy, thus tarnishing the name and reputation of the  journalist and his paper.  Of course, we don't know exactly what happened in that locker room and we can't be certain that the woman's accusations are correct. 

I don't think transadvocate.com is a particularly reliable source, but it is true that people make up stories like this to tar trans* people.  I think that's just a reality.  But I don't recall seeing anyone arguing that the paper made up the story.  The accusation leveled at the paper seems to be that they did a lousy job of fact checking.  There's a huge difference between that and inventing the story. 

The woman, on the other hand, is accused of story invention.  That accusation might be true.  It might not.  I don't know for sure.  But I think it's a reality that people do invent stories to make trans* people look bad.  Media needs to deal with this reality and be wary of it.  It's also a reality that some trans* people behave badly and there are stupid kids who try to exploit gender identity protections.  Trans* advocates need to stop trying to distract from this issue and start dealing with it honestly.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
The columnist, in his original column recognized this and, after writing some respectful things about trans people, went on to say that IF what she was reporting was correct, this was extremely rare. He was emphatic in expressing his opinion that transwomen are women "full stop" and have the absolute right to be in that locker room but stated the obvious—that the behavior she was reporting, IF true, was unacceptable.

I think I basically agree with this.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Human biology being what it is, something like this is eventually going to happen and at that point we are all going to need to have an honest conversation. (Another common talking point is that once a transwoman starts HRT  the penis itself shrinks and no longer can become erect. For some this is true – but for many others, well ... not so much.)

As a person who has repeatedly been asked about "tucking" and responded with advice on shirts, I am probably not the best person to opine on these biological observations.  But I agree about the need to get honest about this sort iPod thing and address it in a more real and thoughtful way.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
You can only go on censoring these types of stories for so long. Some of them are going to be true so I don't see discussing an advice column discussing how to handle this in a way that is respectful to both trans and non trans people is something we need to censor.

The most troubling aspect of this now being dismissed as a "trans-hoax" is the fact that I can't rule out the possibility that there is a woman who experienced something traumatic and the fact that the experience is now being "erased" and ridiculed.  Until we are absolutely sure this woman is "fictional" why would someone want to risk the possibility of victimizing a woman a second time?  How can anyone be ok with that?  Why would someone be comfortable risking doing that to someone?

I don't think that questioning the veracity of a story is the same as retraumatizing them again.  If a person publicizes a story, then it is fair game to tell the other side of the story, ask questions, or contradict the story.  I do not believe there is a moral obligation to accept every story without question merely because it might be traumatic.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I know that I am focusing on transwomen in this post but there is a reason for that. Being a pre-op/non-op transwoman being completely nude and visible in a women's locker room is fundamentally different than a pre-op/non-op transman in a men's. This is something that can't be legislated.  I am fairly certain that a naked and exposed pre-op/non-op transman in a men's locker room is likely to be worried about getting raped by the other men around him.  I don't think that the transwoman has the same concerns (although she might risk getting beaten up.)  It is important for me to add that I think that the majority of pre-op/non-op transwomen would be horrified to be seen by other women this way and are "modest"  and respectful enough to avoid these situations.  But when transwomen make the argument that they are no different in any significant way from a natal woman or that a transman is exactly the same thing as a natal man I have to challenge that.

See my post in the thread "trans* people are not cispeople."  I don't know how to link to it or I would.  But the bottom line is that I agree that being a transwoman or a transman is not the same as being a ciswoman or a cisman.  It is kind of delusional to say that it is exactly the same.  But we have seen that people, even on this forum, protest that it is triggering and traumatic to have someone say so.  So this makes a good example of my point above about ideas and conversations that may be traumatic.

I should, however, pause and observe that I still think your idea of a retransition (I'd prefer multiple transition) forum with a trigger warning is still a good idea, in my opinion.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I still identify as trans. I don't really have a choice.  My history is trans. My evolution is trans.   When I meet someone I never know if I am going to get "sirred" or "ma'amed" because of the mixed gender cues my body gives them.

Welcome to my life.  I have been thinking about that a bunch lately.  If you look at my fingers, you would see that my ring finger and index finger are very close to the same size, which is supposed to be a biological female trait.  But you would also see that my knuckles are very developed and kind of big, which is supposedly a biological male trait.  That's just my fingers.  My whole skeletal structure is a mixed up jumble like that.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I am reluctantly once again taking the first steps down the path of surgical  and hormonal intervention (even though I am tired of changing my body) to help me provide  people with more queues that I wish to be recognized as male so I feel I have a legitimate stake in this discussion. 

I'd say you had a legitimate stake even if you were not currently doing this.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
It is popular right now to talk about how trans people are "invisible" to society and communities, meaning that their needs are never taken into consideration by others. A noted trans activist has written a book called "Excluded" about this phenomenon within a specific community.   If it were only me and my trans experience that was being erased I would probably just say "f*** it" and go it alone.  But I can't help but think back to my experience with the DMV and the fact that I know there are other people out there detransitioning.  Right now they are "invisible" but  I know they are out there and they probably need some place to talk about this.

I agree 110%.  And I think your website is fabulous.  So how can we create a safe space to talk about it? 

At risk of making myself too obvious, you may have noticed that I am trying to draw you out and get you talking here.  And I'm also doing what I can to have your back and try to make it safe for you to do so. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I am starting to hear some of the voices of those who feel  too intimidated to talk about some of the more "messy" issues associated with trans identity, the ones that don't fit comfortably within the prefered storyline.  They need to see more people openly talking about this stuff in a way that is affirming of their own identities and beliefs.  So that is why I continue to encourage others to talk about these issues in a way that is honest yet mindful of the importance of protecting the safety of  members of the trans community and the larger community all of us people are a part of.

And I think that is a laudable goal.  It is very much in line with my goals.  I hope that trans* people of all stripes will become better at discussing these issues without feeling threatened.  After all, every category or type of trans* person seems to want that from the larger community.  The least we can do is give it to one another.

So I for one am thankful that you shared this.  I hope that all will accept it and embrace it in the spirit with which it is offered.  I also hope this will not be the last time you share a controversial honest thought.

Suggestion: Put a sticky note warning on the top saying that this subforums can contain topic that are deemed 'controversial' or uncomfortable truth ?

Quote from: bingunginter on January 28, 2014, 09:55:15 AM
Suggestion: Put a sticky note warning on the top saying that this subforums can contain topic that are deemed 'controversial' or uncomfortable truth ?

Well . . . Maybe.  The thing is, what is so controversial or uncomfortable about someone not transitioning?  This seems like another reason that separate forum for the re/de/multiple transition topic.

QuoteWell . . . Maybe.  The thing is, what is so controversial or uncomfortable about someone not transitioning?

Well, mine is not about not transitioning. My thread for my non-standard trans narrative and why I have detransition thought has been deemed not allowed.
I agree, It shouldn't be controversial or uncomfortable to talk about this.

I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 28, 2014, 07:17:03 AM
This is so true! I've met several MTF whose gender shifted....after being 5, 10 or even 20 years post SRS.

The problem is.....is openly admitting this can make  'fresh' MTF uncertain about their very own (future) decisions and can affect their very ID.

When 'one on one'  some post op MTF tell me something different from what they write online on TS forums...

I agree it is a difficult line to walk. And people do often share slightly different stories one on one, and I think that is somewhat understandable given the current climate. I think the main guiding principle when talking to tg youth or adults just beginning to explore how their own gendered identity is letting people know that it is ok to feel whatever they are feeling:They are not freaks! I think trying to persuade someone not to make a decision is not appropriate nor helpful.  But I think for all of us who have dealt with GID in our lives, HONESTLY and OPENLY sharing our experiences and thoughts is helpful to other trans* aligned people, no matter what point they are on this journey. 

Quote from: bingunginter on January 28, 2014, 03:17:56 PM
Well, mine is not about not transitioning. My thread for my non-standard trans narrative and why I have detransition thought has been deemed not allowed.
I agree, It shouldn't be controversial or uncomfortable to talk about this.

I agree too. And I think the subject you are mentioning is something that we need to be ok talking about. Sadly, non trans people and even trusted researchers have used this "model" to further marginalize transwomen. It has also been presented in a way that dehumanizes and delegitimizes the experiences of many transwomen.  All of that being said, I think that the phenomenon that that model attempts to describe does exist, although they may or may not have nailed down exactly what it is.  I didn't want to even look at this in myself, but I think that to some degree my gender identity evolved in part and possibly totally as a response to an eroticized perception of who I WANTED to be, not necessarily who I was. Thinking of this became an "escape" from problems in my life.  It was my way of coping with life. And it became my identity. Although I eventually came to truly believe I had a female gender identity, I have now come to understand it as something different. My base gender identity is male and at last I feel that is pretty stable.  For me the big change is that I actually came to realization that I had not been "born in the wrong body".  I now know I was born in the RIGHT body. I very much am excited to be male and have future plans for myself as a male that I want to see come to reality. Still I have to be realistic.  I have had "desire" to be female in the past and that could return.  This leads me to looking again at some aspects of the model I described earlier and figure out what parts of it work for me.  Some of the writings associated with that theory speak truths to my experience. It would be nice to have a conversation about this stuff that was detached from self-shaming or judgements or denials of other people's realities.

QuoteI'm glad they gave you the green light.  I would be surprised and disappointed if they changed the decision.  My only (very minor) quibble would be that it might have made more sense to make a new thread.

I deliberated whether or not to start a new thread. I guess it was my nervousness about a negative reaction that wanted me to keep it a little bit "buried" in here.  I am going to reply to your other post later today or tomorrow - you covered a lot of ground and I have some thoughts.  I will probably break one of my replies off into a new thread about an issue you got me thinking about.

Quote
It's sort of my thing to try and make the trans* community a mor inclusive space.  I often very explicitly acknowledge that part of my "job" as a community organizer and activist is teaching cis people about trans* people.  Something  I'm less willing to say is that it also involves teaching trans* people about trans* people.  Usually without them knowing that I'm doing it.  So I am no moderator, and I won't try to moderate anything (I spend enough time doing that offline).  But I am a person who totally supports you being in the space.  Heavens, you sound like you might be one of the few people who grasps that some of my posts have a slightly different meaning from that given to them by most transmen and transwomen, so I would appreciate having someone around who "gets it!" :)

:-) Yay and thank you. More later.

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

I think this is a pretty cool attitude. Being ok with who you are and not being too hung up on worrying about who others think you are (or are not).

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

I relate to The Post-Trans-Rebel's comments. Twenty years ago I was balls out MtF (no pun intended) then I de-transitioned for two years. Uh - being a eunuch medically speaking, be advised not to go without any sex hormones for an extended time because one gets very sickly, so I went back on HRT. However gender ID isn't the least bit important to me any longer and I don't waste my time and get all emotional over-thnking about it. Androgyny is a fine place to wind up really as all the internal pressures are gone and whatever society says is becoming more accepting every day with an attitude of it is what it is.

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

Really enjoying the discussion.  I have never been comfortable with a rigid, binary based taxonomy. I grow, I shrink, I embrace, I resile ... While being non binary, androgyne or gender fluid may make most folk uncomfortable I am good with it and I need to own my life, my presentation and my reality.  Susan's has been a godsend and I am delighted by the growing diversity of our family. 

btw I'm finally able to be able to share my story at other trans forum. Damn that feels good.

Five years ago when I came to Susan's it was because my GD (GID at the time) was resurfacing.  I detransitioned in 2002 after transitioning and living as female for 3 years.  I was 21 at the time I detransitioned.

Back then I felt like I was the only one here at Susan's - but the staff were always kind to me.  Sure I ruffled feathers with my own observations about what you refer to as "the narrative" but by and large I felt respected.  My dysphoria never left though, but I was able to effectively manage it through taking estrogen.

When I turned 30, I was diagnosed with a rare blood condition preventing me from taking hormones of any sort.  Having had an orchi previously - this proved disastrous for my body and my dysphoria rages off and on even today.

Looking back on it now, knowing what I know now, I'd have stayed female.  I really was happier, but I was too young and without guidance.  I trod my path alone, and unfortunately, strayed considerably based on assumptions I would later learn were not true.  Even though I say this now, I don't believe I will ever transition back though.  I have built a life and to transition would be like starting over again.  I do my best to manage the dysphoria and am very active in my trans community as an activist.  I also am out, like VERY out which helps too.

If in the end though my dysphoria becomes too great to manage, I will likely transition to some degree, but I'm not there yet - and hopefully never will be.

Kate

I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after t you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it reflects that not everyone goes through transition once (a transitioner) or twice (a de/retransitioner).  The most frequent transitioner I've ever heard of or encountered was someone who switched directions every year on the same day.  On the anniversary of beginning transition, this person would begin transitioning again in the opposite direction.

Some writers have suggested that many people who retransition do so because they have non-binary identities and they eventually find their peace in an in-between space.  I'm not sure I believe that.  Words like many and most are hard to evaluate when there is (at least to my knowledge) no statistical or other reliable information out there.  But I do believe that some people are probably moved to go back through transition at least part way by having non-binary identities that were not recognized and understood in earlier times.   Kate Bornstein, for example, writes about this in Gender Outlaw--she transitioned at a time when not identifying as male meant that one was understood to identify as a woman.  But she considers herself to be a nonbinary person rather than truly identifying as a woman.  It would be easy to imagine her going back at least part way in her transition. 

It's hard to make generalizations about retransition.  LGBT people are a minority in the larger community, T people are a small minority of LGBT people, and retransitioners are (at least seemingly) a small minority within T circles.  There is limited reliable information on T people and none at all that I know of about retransitioners (I explained why I say that elsewhere in this thread). 

In a way maybe that's a good thing.  Without those generalizations, it is harder to create stereotypes.  And without stereotypes, we really do have to take people at face value without all the assumptions we might otherwise make. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2014, 09:08:56 AM
I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it reflects that not everyone goes through transition once (a transitioner) or twice (a de/retransitioner).  The most frequent transitioner I've ever heard of or encountered was someone who switched directions every year on the same day.  On the anniversary of beginning transition, this person would begin transitioning again in the opposite direction.

Some writers have suggested that many people who retransition do so because they have non-binary identities and they eventually find their peace in an in-between space.  I'm not sure I believe that.  Words like many and most are hard to evaluate when there is (at least to my knowledge) no statistical or other reliable information out there.  But I do believe that some people are probably moved to go back through transition at least part way by having non-binary identities that were not recognized and understood in earlier times.   Kate Bornstein, for example, writes about this in Gender Outlaw--she transitioned at a time when not identifying as male meant that one was understood to identify as a woman.  But she considers herself to be a nonbinary person rather than truly identifying as a woman.  It would be easy to imagine her going back at least part way in her transition. 

It's hard to make generalizations about retransition.  LGBT people are a minority in the larger community, T people are a small minority of LGBT people, and retransitioners are (at least seemingly) a small minority within T circles.  There is limited reliable information on T people and none at all that I know of about retransitioners (I explained why I say that elsewhere in this thread). 

In a way maybe that's a good thing.  Without those generalizations, it is harder to create stereotypes.  And without stereotypes, we really do have to take people at face value without all the assumptions we might otherwise make. :)

I wonder how many non binary people transition because society expects you to be male or female? I know for me if I found myself in a position were my identity switched I would probably just be a masculine woman I couldn't put everybody I know through a second transition.

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 09:29:40 AM
I wonder how many non binary people transition because society expects you to be male or female? I know for me if I found myself in a position were my identity switched I would probably just be a masculine woman I couldn't put everybody I know through a second transition.

My personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.  But because one is conditioned to think in binary terms and even many trans* people do not understand/accept non-binary identities, they say that they identify as one or the other side of the binary.

I say this because of how common it is to entercounter extremely masculine-expressing transwomen and much more feminine-expressing transmen.  I've written in other threads about how I find myself on this journey largely because of my inability to function socially as a seemingly male person and the pain it caused me.  Interacting with transwomen who expect me to share their same history is often a repetition of that same scenario.  It's back to trying to speak Swahili, trying to discuss things I'm clueless about, and back to just being unable to function because they are trying to interact with me in much the same way that men interact with other men.  But yet so many of them seem perfectly comfortable socializing like a group of men would socialize just as long as they are able to wear women's clothes, be called "she," and develop female physical traits.  So many don't even seem interested in how women experience the world.  They say they are being very binary . . . But isn't that a very mixed expression of gender?  Isn't it actually a very non-binary gender expression? 

I guess this is a long way of saying that I too wonder how many transition in a binary way because society expects one to be either male or female . . . And I don't know, but it would not surprise me if that were actually the majority of trans* people. 

Okay . . . I just said some things that are honest but likely controversial.  Let's please discuss this politely.

I saw a film recently entitled "Rush" that I thought was analogous  to what I have personally observed and experienced concerning the TG drive to transitioning. Rush is a 2013 British-German biographical sports drama film directed by Ron Howard and written by Peter Morgan about the 1976 Formula One season and the rivalry between drivers James Hunt and Niki Lauda. It stars Chris Hemsworth as Hunt and Daniel Brühl as Lauda.

James Hunt on the one hand portrayed an individual that was completely obsessed with racing and becoming the world champion. He married a beautiful woman but managed to trash that marriage and every other relationship in the process. I have observed this trait in so many of us driven by dysphoria and GID issues that we charge ahead and view the advice and concerns of others as obstructionism, and those who offer it as the enemy of our will to succeed. We are often drawn into the company of like minded thinkers and thus we form a group-think alliance which becomes all powerful enhanced by the effects of hormones.

Niki Lauda on the other hand was a planner, with little to no racing experience, who thought his way through every facet of the car, of being the driver and what it required to succeed. He was as thoughtful as an engineer, cold and calculating he manipulated everyone to achieve his goals and went about it step by step. He even experienced a horrific crash and fire only to emerge all the more determined as he watched the successes of James Hunt from his hospital bed. Sometimes we are overcome with similar setbacks and though we are pleased for those who are making such strides as the beautiful men and women in the photo threads we feel all the more driven to succeed.

The last race for the world championship was between Niki Lauda and James Hunt It was raining and the track was dangerous as it had been when Niki had crashed. Following the first lap when Niki was ahead the sad eyed face of his lovely wife came flooding into his mind and at that moment Niki's priorities in life took a 180 degree turn and he drove into the pits and gave up the race in favor of something much greater. Which brings to mind the saying, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his life?" These are my thoughts about how I came feel about myself and my own situation as a type of Niki Lauda, it's not intended to be a generalization about others although i know there are some who share these same feelings about themselves. And perhaps this helps to explain why some have a kind of epiphany and cease transition mid-stream, some even de-transitioning.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
My personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.  But because one is conditioned to think in binary terms and even many trans* people do not understand/accept non-binary identities, they say that they identify as one or the other side of the binary.

I say this because of how common it is to entercounter extremely masculine-expressing transwomen and much more feminine-expressing transmen.  I've written in other threads about how I find myself on this journey largely because of my inability to function socially as a seemingly male person and the pain it caused me.  Interacting with transwomen who expect me to share their same history is often a repetition of that same scenario.  It's back to trying to speak Swahili, trying to discuss things I'm clueless about, and back to just being unable to function because they are trying to interact with me in much the same way that men interact with other men.  But yet so many of them seem perfectly comfortable socializing like a group of men would socialize just as long as they are able to wear women's clothes, be called "she," and develop female physical traits.  So many don't even seem interested in how women experience the world.  They say they are being very binary . . . But isn't that a very mixed expression of gender?  Isn't it actually a very non-binary gender expression? 

I guess this is a long way of saying that I too wonder how many transition in a binary way because society expects one to be either male or female . . . And I don't know, but it would not surprise me if that were actually the majority of trans* people. 

Okay . . . I just said some things that are honest but likely controversial.  Let's please discuss this politely.

Don't worry I don't come on here to argue. You actually bring up some very valid points I've noticed myself.
Actually I think society has a lot to do with this and that the belief you aren't really a man unless your into sports and sleeping with a bunch of women. And your not really a woman if your not married and not wanting kids. I think very few people are truly binary altogether and most of what we know of male and female is society based instead of biologically based.
I believe it's alright for a male to be feminine and a woman to be masculine without it meaning they should transition. I think society needs to further explore what gender and gender expression truly is instead of trying to fit people into just two categories and saying you must act this way.
Now I can't say for sure that I'm completely binary with certainty and at times I have suspected I'm bi gender or intersex. But I say I feel more comfortable as a living and socializing as a woman than I ever did trying to live as a male so that's all that matters to me.

QuoteMy personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.

So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

My view is everyone falls somewhere on a continuum, most are very close to their physical gender and thus don't notice. Stray too far and you find yourself here.  ;)

Quote from: Ahn A. Sabbatical on February 01, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

I may be misreading the question too . . . But I was only commenting on trans* people and binary identity.  I did not intend to say anything at all about cisgender people or bigender identity (which is one kind of non-binary identity).

Quote from: Shantel on February 01, 2014, 11:38:59 AM
James Hunt on the one hand portrayed an individual that was completely obsessed with racing and becoming the world champion. He married a beautiful woman but managed to trash that marriage and every other relationship in the process. I have observed this trait in so many of us driven by dysphoria and GID issues that we charge ahead and view the advice and concerns of others as obstructionism, and those who offer it as the enemy of our will to succeed. We are often drawn into the company of like minded thinkers and thus we form a group-think alliance which becomes all powerful enhanced by the effects of hormones.

I have noticed this too and it is always troubling.  Going through transition requires a lot of self-focus that can prevent you from being truly "present" for the people in your life. If you are going through a transition you need remember that it isn't always all about you all the time. The people around you matter. Sadly, this is often forgotten, especially when there is so much encouragement within the trans community to not let friends and family get in the way of "being who you need to be". When I started my transition in the mid 90s I came across a number of transwomen in the early stages of transition who were apparently ok being "deadbeat dads", their justification being that their financial responsibilities to their former spouses and children were getting in the way of them being who they needed to be. (I will add that these people certainly did not make up a large percentage of the transwomen I encountered back in those days but there were enough of them for me to see that it was a recognizable pattern for some.) 

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

ThePhoenix is right when saying that it is often a case of "multiple transition" or, as I like to say, all part of one long transition called "life".  I think we are always in a state of "becoming ourselves" but sometimes we become afraid to let ourselves accept this.  You are right - some people find themselves in a place where they no longer identify as any gender.  Some people may decide that, after going back to their birth gender, they are more certain than ever that they need to get back to the gender they transitioned to the first time.  We all have different paths.  I don't know where mine is heading but I am always curious about what is around the next bend.

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 11:45:07 AMI think very few people are truly binary altogether and most of what we know of male and female is society based instead of biologically based.

I think the gender binary has its origin in biology and is a mechanism to keep our species propagating.  As our society has evolved it is becoming less important with every passing day.  I think most (though not all) of the attributes that make up "gender" have lost their biological necessity and are now a conscious choice we make, either as individuals or a society. It is largely kabuki theater and as far as that goes I think that men and women should have the freedom to participate (or not participate) in a manner of their own choosing. All of that being said, I think some aspects of gender are still important and biologically necessary.

Quote from: retransition on February 01, 2014, 09:32:52 PM
I think the gender binary has its origin in biology and is a mechanism to keep our species propagating.  As our society has evolved it is becoming less important with every passing day.  I think most (though not all) of the attributes that make up "gender" have lost their biological necessity and are now a conscious choice we make, either as individuals or a society.

Exactly what I've been thinking too.

QuoteAll of that being said, I think some aspects of gender are still important and biologically necessary.

Besides the obvious ones, what aspects of gender are still important in your opinion?

"Multiple Transition" really puts a whole new perspective on the "You're just going through a phase" line ;)

Maybe some of us ARE just going through a phase. Shouldn't that be ok? Does society need us to pick one gender or the other and stick with it? Do some of us force ourselves into behaviors that are uncomfortable in order to 'look the part'?

Awesome thread! Really has my gears spinning right now. :)

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 18, 2014, 03:04:13 AM
Exactly what I've been thinking too.
Besides the obvious ones, what aspects of gender are still important in your opinion?

When you say "the obvious ones" what does that mean for you? For me the obvious ones revolve the biological differences between a man and a woman. To be blunt, it is the penis and vagina thing and all that goes with it. The fact that the vast majority of sexual violence is still male assaults on females is a reality that is always there staring us in the face.  The awareness of that fact (and, sadly, direct experience of it for many) leads to variations in behavior which form another part of "gender".

In terms of strength, on average men are stronger than women and men have used that advantage to dominate women even before we were officially "homo sapiens".  That seemed to keep the species propagating well enough but it did so through the subjugation of women that still exists to this day.

As we become a more and more technology-based species, those differences begin to matter less and less. If every man on the planet died tomorrow, the species could go on thanks to sperm banks. (If all women died tomorrow and it was the men who survived the human race at this stage in the game the odds of our species surviving would not be too hot.)

Access to technology serves as an equalizer for the sexes and that is why in strong patriarchal societies are fighting to prevent women from accessing it.   It is a struggle that I expect will go on for some time (far past my lifetime) but eventually everyone will have access to the equalizer of technology and physical dominance of one sex over the other will not be as large of an issue.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go all "sci fi" on you but there you go.

I think there are other differences that do exist that maybe once mattered more than they do now, but are still significant.  I think hormones dictate gender in a BIG way. I am not speaking necessarily on an individual level (because we all have different hormonal histories - some more "normative" than others) but the collective effects of hormonal exposure upon all female humans as a group vs all males as a group definitely shapes the likelihood of certain gendered behaviors. (For example, the fact that men, on average, find younger women more sexually attractive than post-menopausal women I believe is driven by male hormones. These hormones directly impact men on a physiological level to influence their behavior, but their impact also jumps the gender divide by putting pressure on women (as a general group) try to appear younger via makeup, surgical and hormonal intervention. This is just one example of a hormonal sequence that creates gender but I could go on and on.

To some I might sound sexist by saying all of this and I am eager to hear arguments about why I am wrong (I just bought a book that supposedly has a different viewpoint called Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine. Some people I respect highly recommend this so I am curious to hear her take.)

I think that hormones drive our personalities, values and life motivations more than we are comfortable acknowledging. But it is also important to remember that biology does not have to be destiny. Just because there are forces at play that sometimes shape how we behave as gendered individuals that doesn't mean that they need to limit us in any way.  I think these differences are in an evolutionary decline that will be accelerated even further as we begin to learn more about them and the purposes they once served.

You know, during my time as a user of testosterone, I never could tolerate full strength or anything remotely close to a normal male level of it.  Enough to give me lots of hair, but not enough to do various other things.  But somewhere around that level it got even me thinking about sex.  And that's pretty amazing considering that I am a strongly asexual person who finds sex of any kind to be just plain icky and uninteresting. 

I don't really notice the mental effects of estrogen so much.  To me they just sort of feel like my baseline norm.  But to me the experience with T is ample evidence to prove that hormones really do influence behavior.  Honestly, the experience provoked some fear in me that is still with me to this day . . . .

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 18, 2014, 03:26:57 AM
"Multiple Transition" really puts a whole new perspective on the "You're just going through a phase" line ;)

Maybe some of us ARE just going through a phase. Shouldn't that be ok? Does society need us to pick one gender or the other and stick with it? Do some of us force ourselves into behaviors that are uncomfortable in order to 'look the part'?

Awesome thread! Really has my gears spinning right now. :)

That's cool that you have been enjoying the conversation and of course your contributions have been really interesting.  I do think that people, in some cases, change their minds and that is nothing to be ashamed of.  That said and even though I think people should not discouraged for expressing various forms of "gender expression" I also think that what we call "gender" is still somewhat sacred and in some ways that needs to be honored out of respect for all people (trans and non).

Quote from: retransition on February 25, 2014, 06:32:10 PM
That's cool that you have been enjoying the conversation and of course your contributions have been really interesting.  I do think that people, in some cases, change their minds and that is nothing to be ashamed of. 

I very much enjoy hearing your view on the trans* experience. It's important for me as a transsexual to confront all of the fear and doubt I have about transitioning. If I don't question everything and look at the reality of it all, I put myself at risk for being severely disappointed with the result. And obviously you are not afraid to talk about "the messy stuff" and I respect that. I read quite a few of your blog entries on your website. I then had to compare myself with you. "What if I ended up detransitioning?" I asked myself. "What if I ended up going through with SRS etc only to discover later on that it wasn't what I really wanted/needed?"
I question everything on a regular basis, but I still feel that transition is the right thing for me. It has completely turned my life around. I'm finally becoming a happy person. I could go on and on about all the reasons I'm sticking on this path.  ;)

Quote
That said and even though I think people should not discouraged for expressing various forms of "gender expression" I also think that what we call "gender" is still somewhat sacred and in some ways that needs to be honored out of respect for all people (trans and non).

Yes, gender is sacred. That is something I've had a hard time with as a transsexual. Its nice when I'm in the company of cis women and they accept me for who I am and treat me just like one of them. But the reality is, I'm NOT one of them. This might ruffle some feathers, but I don't think its fair to expect cis people to treat trans* people like cis people. It's embarrassing when somebody else takes it upon themselves to stand up for my trans rights when I never asked them to. I don't want trans activists to fight my battles. If I can survive in the world in my desired gender than that is something I earned.

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 26, 2014, 08:25:04 PM
I read quite a few of your blog entries on your website. I then had to compare myself with you. "What if I ended up detransitioning?" I asked myself. "What if I ended up going through with SRS etc only to discover later on that it wasn't what I really wanted/needed?"
I question everything on a regular basis, but I still feel that transition is the right thing for me. It has completely turned my life around. I'm finally becoming a happy person. I could go on and on about all the reasons I'm sticking on this path.  ;)

That's great to hear.  My hope with my blog is that by sharing my own experiences others who read them might come away just a little bit more certain about their own life path no matter what direction that leads them in.  I am happy to hear things have been going well!  :-)

Quote from: retransition on February 23, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
I just bought a book that supposedly has a different viewpoint called Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine. Some people I respect highly recommend this so I am curious to hear her take.

I am 80% of the way through that book and am enjoying it immensely.  Her take is unashamedly against biology having any gigantic behavioural impact beyond dictating the physicality of height, muscle mass and adipose distribution.

However, despite the wealth of data she presents, I believe that the impact of, for example, HRT is so well documented that biology's role in our own personal expression and interpretation of life is very hard to deny. 

I have only had time to just start it.  Maybe I can make some headway this weekend, your review makes me even more eager to read it.  I definitely think the differences between male-typical brain vs female-typical are way over exaggerated. But I think that the role of hormones can't be denied in influencing certain patterns of brain development from prenatal until death.  Suddenly, relatively late in my own life, I am really interested in all of this stuff and trying to absorb as much as I can which is why I am now back in school studying psychology to get a sense of what theories other people are coming up with these days.

Quote from: Nikko on February 01, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

My view is everyone falls somewhere on a continuum, most are very close to their physical gender and thus don't notice. Stray too far and you find yourself here.  ;)

I am belatedly replying to say I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that this whole cis-trans thing is a continuum rather than a binary.

Retransition

Your views are converging with mine and they are being continually reinforced by hrt, counselling, conscious choice, life experience and an increasing number of writers  and the latest views from integrated rather than binary (nature v nurture) thinkers.  I have always enjoyed Kate Bornstein and her latest workbook is no different - it strongly supports her views on binary fluidity and choice. 
Perhaps more impactful has been a massive body of work from Allan Shore developing and applying his theory on affect regulation and the origin of self et al.  His ability to bring together neurobiology, developmental neurochemistry, behavioral neurology, evolutionary biology, developmental psychology, developmental psychoanalysis and infant psychiatry is truly impressive.  As a layperson I have found his argument that the sense of self and therefore gender is a combined neurobiological-social-emotional expression resonates and aligns with my view that chemical/structural (hrt/brain structure) and environmental (socialisation) interact in a constantly changing dance that we can either choose to fight and suffer stress or dissonance or choose to embrace and evolve.

Aisla

QuoteBut by failing to discuss that issue, the community does a disservice to its members.  It leaves those who will one day be on the road a second (or more) time out of the discussion.  It also fails to present a complete picture of the palette of options out there.  And it is perhaps less than honest with itself.  My way of describing my own identity is simple:  this works for me now, so I go with it, but I do not presume to know what will happen in the future.  I think that's honest and real.

I think detransition/retransition threads/ sub forums are a good idea and dont see the problem with it. However I really don't agree that the Trans community tries to hide or ignore detransitioners and detransitioning stories. I think that  they maybe many people detransitioning out there but I think they are still a minority in the trans community . Just like how they are many people who transition but the Trans community is still a minority in the LGBT community. And the LGBT community is a small community of the population and etc.  Sometimes its not that people dont want to support or are trying to oppress you, but that they truly don't know how to help or are just not aware of your existence. 

I have been part of a couple of trans forums and browsed some, and many of them caution Trans people to think carefully before transition (not that one cant change their mind later on or that they wont be any other option) but because its a big life changing decision that must be considered carefully, other options considered and have also seen these forums supporting people/members who would have transitioned and then detransition, with no judgement. Even though they may not have been any specific sub forums on this topic, I dont think its because trans boards/forums want to silence or not support people who detransition but its because noone would have asked for them or they aren't aware that they are many detransitioning people out there who require their own space with the community.They maybe misconceptions that people who detransition no longer want to be part of the Trans community, so transitioners may not be aware they are people out there who need the support.  It wasn't so many years ago that they werent FTM sub forums on many trans forums, and to this day some still don't, even Androgyny and genderqueer forums have been added much later on. So yeah i do think there is somewhat a communication problem, which can be easily solved.

Quote from: Marvel on April 11, 2014, 10:08:10 AM


I think detransition/retransition threads/ sub forums are a good idea and dont see the problem with it. However I really don't agree that the Trans community tries to hide or ignore detransitioners and detransitioning stories. I think that  they maybe many people detransitioning out there but I think they are still a minority in the trans community . Just like how they are many people who transition but the Trans community is still a minority in the LGBT community. And the LGBT community is a small community of the population and etc.  Sometimes its not that people dont want to support or are trying to oppress you, but that they truly don't know how to help or are just not aware of your existence. 

I have been part of a couple of trans forums and browsed some, and many of them caution Trans people to think carefully before transition (not that one cant change their mind later on or that they wont be any other option) but because its a big life changing decision that must be considered carefully, other options considered and have also seen these forums supporting people/members who would have transitioned and then detransition, with no judgement. Even though they may not have been any specific sub forums on this topic, I dont think its because trans boards/forums want to silence or not support people who detransition but its because noone would have asked for them or they aren't aware that they are many detransitioning people out there who require their own space with the community.They maybe misconceptions that people who detransition no longer want to be part of the Trans community, so transitioners may not be aware they are people out there who need the support.  It wasn't so many years ago that they werent FTM sub forums on many trans forums, and to this day some still don't, even Androgyny and genderqueer forums have been added much later on. So yeah i do think there is somewhat a communication problem, which can be easily solved.

Nice post.  And I agree that the minuteness in awareness of detransition related narratives within the trans space is usually not the product of some nefarious plot but more a reflection of the smaller proportion of people within the community interested in this topic.  And I agree that, like everything in life, communication and sharing of stories and experiences can probably benefit many (even those who may not at first think they would be interested in this topic.)

Quote from: retransition on April 15, 2014, 09:37:46 PM
Nice post.  And I agree that the minuteness in awareness of detransition related narratives within the trans space is usually not the product of some nefarious plot but more a reflection of the smaller proportion of people within the community interested in this topic.  And I agree that, like everything in life, communication and sharing of stories and experiences can probably benefit many (even those who may not at first think they would be interested in this topic.)

I can't see myself ever detransitioning, but you never know what life will throw at you. I still find myself browsing the threads in this area.

I am not thinking of detransitioning and living as female, but I AM thinking about taking a much lower testosterone level, possibly adding estrogen, maybe trying to get my hormone levels as close to zero as I could while maintaining libido and bone density...

Just because I already pass and don't like side effects. Not sure what to do though, and I think it'd be cool if there were more resources for people thinking about stopping hormones, but still living as a guy, or counter-acting side effects somehow...?

Idk, just really need people to talk to, it's such a specific subject and not one I can talk to just anybody about.

Quote from: retransition on February 01, 2014, 09:32:52 PM
I think the gender binary has its origin in biology and is a mechanism to keep our species propagating.  As our society has evolved it is becoming less important with every passing day.  I think most (though not all) of the attributes that make up "gender" have lost their biological necessity and are now a conscious choice we make, either as individuals or a society. It is largely kabuki theater and as far as that goes I think that men and women should have the freedom to participate (or not participate) in a manner of their own choosing. All of that being said, I think some aspects of gender are still important and biologically necessary.

lots (but not all) of this :)

i think gender is a cultural artefact from a time when we had strict sex roles, and what keeps it going is the continued threat of violence from men (gender's bio basis being men's physical strength advantage). i think that's why there's so much resistance to it being dismantled - from both men and women.

is any of it necessary for propagation? well, it certainly puts us in our reproductive place.

personally i don't believe in an innate sexuality or reproductive urge, i think sexual intercourse = babies = heteronormativity, and the sooner we question these assumptions the better for humankind :D




Edited for Profanity

QuoteNice post.  And I agree that the minuteness in awareness of detransition related narratives within the trans space is usually not the product of some nefarious plot but more a reflection of the smaller proportion of people within the community interested in this topic.  And I agree that, like everything in life, communication and sharing of stories and experiences can probably benefit many (even those who may not at first think they would be interested in this topic.)

Sorry, late post been away for some time.
Thanks  :), nice post/s to you too, really brave stuff. True, they need to be better communication.

Quotepersonally i don't believe in an innate sexuality or reproductive urge, i think sexual intercourse = babies = heteronormativity, and the sooner we question these assumptions the better for humankind :D

I think questioning and also doing your own thinking too is always a good thing, not just take whatever society says is "right".  Whichever path a person will chose, as long its from their own free will and not harming others.