Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I cannot pass the way I am, without heavy makeup and bangs covering my forehead. Since I'm taking the stealth approach, I am considering a tracheal shave first, I don't think anyone close to me would notice. My electrologist has said she's seen worse than the size of my adam's apple. ;D After that, I would like the very best the U.S. has to offer, if I can't afford it. If not, I'd go to Dr. Cardenas in neighboring Mexico. I feel it's safer than going overseas. I'd have a nose job, forehead contour, and jaw and chin reduction. I'd be pretty much set after that.  :)

I am planning on doing it all at once as it saves money and you don't have to keep making more trips back.

Allison

Like Christine, I am not very passable without a lot of makeup and even though I go light with it, it still helps to bring out my feminesse. Fortunately my adam's apple doesn't protrude much, so I don't think that a tracheal shave will be nessessary.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I think the tracheal shave would be good for me first because A- compared to anything else, it's not that major of a procedure, B- stealthy, C- since it not as complex as FFS and would prepare me for the next big steps, as I've never had any surgery, hospitalization, broken bones (knock on wood)  :P

Yeah, but if its that stealthy, maybe you don't need to do it first. Meaning it was OK.

Its only when other signs point to being TS that the adam's apple is scrutinized.

Is there an order in FFS?  Thought it was only one surgery that involved several procedures to feminize the male face?  Maybe I'm wrong?  I would like to alter my jaw into a more feminine look but dunno if this can be done as a separate operation which doesn not involve full FFS.

Jeannette,
Yes, you can do it alone
Y mean reducing the jaw angle and flare I suppose.

Hey Christine, your lucky to have never  been hospitalized. But sure if you feel that a tracheal shave is necessary, than go for it. Like I said before, my therapist had looked at me and made mention that she couldn't even see my adam's apple. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but by going stealth simply means that you're going to start living full time as a woman and not tell anyone about your past life.

Jeannete, if you ant I'm sure that you can go and get everything done at once, but I'd hate to see the pain. I've seen pictures, and it takes almost six weeks of healing. Find a good plastic surgeon.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I had FFS the day after I legally changed my name and went full time into transition.

I had a few consultants with surgeons 6 months before that time to get their perceptions (and give them mine) of what I needed / wanted, which was not to far apart from my expectations.

I left work on a Friday and had FFS on the Monday, which included, Brow bossing and forehead reconstruction, Open Revision Septorhinoplasty, Jaw shaving and angle of mandible reduction, Tracheal shave, Bilateral Otoplasty and upper and lower bletheroplasty.

I had a second round of facial surgery last year which included Face lift, necklift and scalp advance, before having hair transplants in March this year.

The surgeries where 5 years apart, why?.... It just worked out like that.

If you are having FFS, I would do as much as the surgeon is reasonably comfortable with in one go, my first FFS was 9 hours long.

Buffy

Buffy, was that in the U.S. (or the country you're in), or did you have to do alot of travelling? I think it would be difficult if I were to do everything at once, or maybe I'll just say the hell with it and painfully do it all.

Hi Christine...

I choose to go to Thailand for FFS.

I was in the UK at the time and travelled to and from Thailand, with a 14 day stay after surgery.

There are many good FFS surgeons in the US (but none I considered to be good in the UK), so that was why I went to Thailand.

The level of after care was exceptional, with nurse visits everyday and a weekly follow up with the surgeon in person. The surgeon I looked at in the UK basically said after 3 days you go home and go to your own doctor for any follow ups / stitch removal etc.

After 14 days, bruising was coverable by make up and swelling had gone down sufficiently (compression bandages had come off for example) to make travelling not a real issue.

Buffy

Ah, thanks, Buffy. I'm leaning towards somewhere in the U.S. or close if my finances are in order when the time comes. I was just worried about the after affects of staying in a country and looking totally different trying to get back home.

Excellent, morticia. If the timing is right, and I do enough research, I may go overseas. I am also considering Argentina: http://www.genderways.com/en/N2/facial_feminization.htm I think I found that link here on Susans. Full FFS is $13000 which is a fraction of what it is here in the US. I think I might stick with someone closer and cheaper though.

I had all my operations done at the same time.  Took me 12 hrs on the operating table.  Almost ten months to recover entirely.

Scalp advance
brow lift
Forehead reconstruction
Rhinoplasty
Cheek implants
Tracheal Shave
Chin recontouring (known as sliding genioplasty)
Top lip lengthening

~laugh~ why, thank you kindly.  ~blushes~

Quote from: morticia on July 19, 2007, 02:32:21 AM

Quote from: Butterfly on July 19, 2007, 02:11:47 AM
I had all my operations done at the same time.  Took me 12 hrs on the operating table.  Almost ten months to recover entirely.

Scalp advance
brow lift
Forehead reconstruction
Rhinoplasty
Cheek implants
Tracheal Shave
Chin recontouring (known as sliding genioplasty)
Top lip lengthening

Well, let me tell you that if that's you in the avatar, you more than got your money's worth!

Well, she didn't tell us how much it set her back (or who did it) Must have been a lot though, as she didn't have enough money left over for a blouse that fits. :)

Quote from: Christine Eryn on June 22, 2007, 01:51:34 AM
I cannot pass the way I am, without heavy makeup and bangs covering my forehead. Since I'm taking the stealth approach, I am considering a tracheal shave first, I don't think anyone close to me would notice. My electrologist has said she's seen worse than the size of my adam's apple. ;D After that, I would like the very best the U.S. has to offer, if I can't afford it. If not, I'd go to Dr. Cardenas in neighboring Mexico. I feel it's safer than going overseas. I'd have a nose job, forehead contour, and jaw and chin reduction. I'd be pretty much set after that.  :)

Before heading down to Mexico I would join the FFS group on Yahoo. They are fanatics..seriously. There are a couple of butchers in Mexico you do need to avoid. I dont remember their names but you will get some really good advice from that group.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 20, 2007, 05:00:56 AM

Quote from: morticia on July 19, 2007, 02:32:21 AM

Quote from: Butterfly on July 19, 2007, 02:11:47 AM
I had all my operations done at the same time.  Took me 12 hrs on the operating table.  Almost ten months to recover entirely.

Scalp advance
brow lift
Forehead reconstruction
Rhinoplasty
Cheek implants
Tracheal Shave
Chin recontouring (known as sliding genioplasty)
Top lip lengthening

Well, let me tell you that if that's you in the avatar, you more than got your money's worth!

Well, she didn't tell us how much it set her back (or who did it) Must have been a lot though, as she didn't have enough money left over for a blouse that fits. :)

~laugh~ That's one of my favourite tops. :)  FFS cost a lot of money but had to do it because I couldn't go fulltime as I used to look.  Just horrid, horrid. Estrogen wasn't kind to me at all.  Didn't go through the changes some peeps talk about.  FFS was my only way to get rid of all the maleness hormones couldn't.

Can't disclose the name of my surgeon for reprecautions that my own name could be disclosed.  Had it done in the States though.  California. ;)

Quote from: morticia on July 20, 2007, 05:23:03 PM

dear dod you're just totally gorgeous!  I am so serious, you are just drop dead gorgeous!  Why aren't you in movies or a super model?  My god!  My monitor keeps catching on fire everytime your photo comes up on it because you're so hot looking!
You're a stunning beauty, you must have to carry a taser in your purse to keep the wolves at bay!
Oh how I wish I could look just a fraction as nice as you do!
Sigh..................

~blushes~  :icon_redface:  Thank you kindly :)

You get what you pay for. Mine was 64k but my gender is never questioned.

Actually, you get what you need, I put out $32k, did everything that DR O recommended except a facelift, which I still may have, I need one, my gender is never questioned either, even with a marginal voice. and being six foot.

And now with my BA and GRS, I will even pass nude in the locker room/ LOL

BTW I am  only one of three patients that Dr O did not recommend a rhino and I was close to passable before FFS.

Also, I feel that people who are going to display phenomenal results on the FFS forum should be prepared to illuminate the group as to who helped them achieve such great results.

If you look at Doug Ousterhout's work, most don't look like supermodels, his goal is for his patients to achieve femininity.

Posted on: July 22, 2007, 09:53:51 PM

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Quote from: morticia on July 22, 2007, 05:07:59 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on July 22, 2007, 04:40:25 PM
You get what you pay for. Mine was 64k but my gender is never questioned.

OMG!  $64k ????  Wow!  I'm hoping that I can scrape up $10k for mine in Thailand.
For $64k in Thailand I could get a whole new everything.

You must have gone to the very best of the best in the states.

My thoughts on that is that I only want the very best messing with my face. I "shopped" Thailand for FFS and decided to go with Dr. O. but there are options, Suporn is good for FFS, I heard but he is up there price wise with Doug.

There's a limit to what surgery can do in the jaw and chin especially, because of nerve placement and limits posed by inner mouth structures. Also, since they cannot really change the upper jaw, there's an esthetic limit to what can be done to the lower jaw so it looks all right.

If you shortened chin too much, the upper lip area will look quite strange in proportion even with a lip lift. Reducing brow bossing radically for some leads to a low nose bridge which works esthetically on some, and not on others. If your jaw juts forward from the top of your skull (somewhat frequent in males), no FFS will be able to entirely fix it (since the upper jaw position will limit how much the lower jaw can move).

In general, an attractive man, will make an attractive woman without FFS and even more so with FFS. Esthetically, men that are seen as more beautiful have slight more feminine faces than the average men (Orlando Bloom, Jude Law, Brad Pitt, DiCaprio, most of Hollywood leading men!)

Quote from: Keira on July 22, 2007, 10:41:23 PM

There's a limit to what surgery can do in the jaw and chin especially, because of nerve placement and limits posed by inner mouth structures. Also, since they cannot really change the upper jaw, there's an esthetic limit to what can be done to the lower jaw so it looks all right.

If you shortened chin too much, the upper lip area will look quite strange in proportion even with a lip lift. Reducing brow bossing radically for some leads to a low nose bridge which works esthetically on some, and not on others. If your jaw juts forward from the top of your skull (somewhat frequent in males), no FFS will be able to entirely fix it (since the upper jaw position will limit how much the lower jaw can move).

In general, an attractive man, will make an attractive woman without FFS and even more so with FFS. Esthetically, men that are seen as more beautiful have slight more feminine faces than the average men (Orlando Bloom, Jude Law, Brad Pitt, DiCaprio, most of Hollywood leading men!)

I would agree with that, it is certainly true in my case :) MY Buddhist teaching doesn't allow me to dwell on it, but I still look at that really pretty/handsome 17 year old in my high scoool photo and wonder what if? OTOH I am truly grateful to be where I am today, I am still lying in my hospital bed, a couple days away from unveiling the new me to the world. I will arrive back in San Francisco, a day before my 59th birthday...all my surgeries have wound up as birthday or Christmas gifts to myself.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 22, 2007, 11:29:19 PM

Quote from: Keira on July 22, 2007, 10:41:23 PM

There's a limit to what surgery can do in the jaw and chin especially, because of nerve placement and limits posed by inner mouth structures. Also, since they cannot really change the upper jaw, there's an esthetic limit to what can be done to the lower jaw so it looks all right.

If you shortened chin too much, the upper lip area will look quite strange in proportion even with a lip lift. Reducing brow bossing radically for some leads to a low nose bridge which works esthetically on some, and not on others. If your jaw juts forward from the top of your skull (somewhat frequent in males), no FFS will be able to entirely fix it (since the upper jaw position will limit how much the lower jaw can move).

In general, an attractive man, will make an attractive woman without FFS and even more so with FFS. Esthetically, men that are seen as more beautiful have slight more feminine faces than the average men (Orlando Bloom, Jude Law, Brad Pitt, DiCaprio, most of Hollywood leading men!)

I would agree with that, it is certainly true in my case :) MY Buddhist teaching doesn't allow me to dwell on it, but I still look at that really pretty/handsome 17 year old in my high scoool photo and wonder what if? OTOH I am truly grateful to be where I am today, I am still lying in my hospital bed, a couple days away from unveiling the new me to the world. I will arrive back in San Francisco, a day before my 59th birthday...all my surgeries have wound up as birthday or Christmas gifts to myself.

What doctor?, Harper.

I think it is rude and an invasion of privacy to refer to someone by a name other than the one that is currently being used.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 22, 2007, 11:34:22 PM
i have heard people say that "beautiful" people have a perfectly symmetrical face.

mine, of course, is crooked as hell.

Actress Ellen Barkin got rave reviews for looking sexy with a crooked face.

Quote from: gina_taylor on June 30, 2007, 06:54:59 AM
Like Christine, I am not very passable without a lot of makeup and even though I go light with it, it still helps to bring out my feminesse. Fortunately my adam's apple doesn't protrude much, so I don't think that a tracheal shave will be nessessary.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I never wear make up....hate it....I prefer a clear complexion which looks far more natural.

Quote from: Christine Eryn on July 19, 2007, 01:27:02 AM
I am also considering Argentina: http://www.genderways.com/en/N2/facial_feminization.htm

I am from Argentina.  Dr. Marcello DiMaggio is one of the best FFS surgeons in the world trained in the best medical schools in the States and Europe.  His fees are very affordable.  My roommate just had FFS (the works) with him and she paid the equivalent of $11,000.  She had inquired on prices outside Argentina, sent pics of herself to get virtual examples.  One very famous FFS surgeon in the States gave her an estimate of $38,000 for the same kind of work she had done here with Dr. DiMaggio, big difference in price.

Hi Pia

I am so glad you brought this up. I have been in touch with Genderways myself and the quote was very affordable compared to others.

When I was young I was very passable, even without makeup. However now that I am nearing 50 and my face has lost a lot of it's firmness, it has (in my opinion) a more masculine look to it.

If you are uncertain as to what to do with your face in terms of FFS, don't worry! The surgeons are very experienced and will recommend the procedures they think you will benefit from. Personally I wouldn't want to do anything drastic. The guys at work know what I look like and know that I have been considering a "face lift" and I'm sure that the lift would camouflage the other changes I do.

I keep seeing how beautiful everyone looks with FFS. I wanna look that way. Everyone here (locally, all of my t-friends, non-t friends, and so on) things I'm completely insane. All of them say, "Are you kidding me? WTF are they going to do?" I get a lot of people who just keep telling me that I'm lucky and they wish they had what I had, which feels weird.

So, I don't know. I don't know if things are in my head or if people are just really nice. It gets confusing. I wonder if I can look really hot without FFS. *shurgs* I don't know. But wow people look awesome with it.

Then my friends turn around and talk about surgeries they want, or had, etc, etc. I kind of feel excluded. I look in the mirror and don't understand what they see...

Posted on: September 24, 2007, 08:04:13 PM

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Quote from: Berliegh on September 16, 2007, 07:51:54 AM

Quote from: gina_taylor on June 30, 2007, 06:54:59 AM
Like Christine, I am not very passable without a lot of makeup and even though I go light with it, it still helps to bring out my feminesse. Fortunately my adam's apple doesn't protrude much, so I don't think that a tracheal shave will be nessessary.

Gina  :icon_dance:

I never wear make up....hate it....I prefer a clear complexion which looks far more natural.

I like make up for fun. I go out with it plenty of times, but it's fun for me to wear make up -- do cool things with eyeshadow, etc, etc.

Posted on: September 24, 2007, 08:06:07 PM

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I do need a hair cut -- that much I can tell you -- I'm getting pissed at several of my friends who keep saying they really, really want to do my hair but never do. Grrr! Why, oh why do they do this? They take forever and I just want it done.

I was also checking out the website in Pia's quote.  For $11,000 I could go there too and have a number of procedures done.  Nevertheless I am a very skeptical person, and I was observing these photographs.....and....well....to me...they don't look like the same person.  Why?  because the neck and the ears (in both pictures) are different in size and shape.  So, since Pia is familiar with this surgeon, I would like to ask her where we can get information regarding recent results on different patients.  Hope you don't mind my asking, Pia.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd141%2Fgoldendragonfly%2Ffacial_feminisation.jpg&hash=d49e778b6e85410e5d0a54a61276be8372a39a79)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd141%2Fgoldendragonfly%2Ffacial_feminization_1.jpg&hash=df1da2d012f4a891f27a6bf9cf904ea0a1804cca)


tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on September 24, 2007, 08:43:16 PM
I was also checking out the website in Pia's quote.  For $11,000 I could go there too and have a number of procedures done.  Nevertheless I am a very skeptical person, and I was observing these photographs.....and....well....to me...they don't look like the same person.  Why?  because the neck and the ears (in both pictures) are different in size and shape.  So, since Pia is familiar with this surgeon, I would like to ask her where we can get information regarding recent results on different patients.  Hope you don't mind my asking, Pia.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd141%2Fgoldendragonfly%2Ffacial_feminisation.jpg&hash=d49e778b6e85410e5d0a54a61276be8372a39a79)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd141%2Fgoldendragonfly%2Ffacial_feminization_1.jpg&hash=df1da2d012f4a891f27a6bf9cf904ea0a1804cca)


tink :icon_chick:

Tink, I met Amanda when I was at Suporn in Thailand. Those photos are then real person.

www.genderways.com

Then I have to say that the results are amazing compared to many others that I have seen from prominent US surgeons.  As far as I know, FFS is supposed to "feminize" your face, so basically the patients end up looking like the female version of what they used to look prior to surgery.  There are several examples of what I mean here:

http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm

However, in the case of Amanda, there's NO resemblance whatsoever between her post-op and pre-op photos. That's what I was getting at.


tink :icon_chick:

The problem I often see is over operation, especially the jawline, I don't know why people want their jawline completely hacked away. Most beautiful women, including Grace Kelly (Tink will tell you :-), have substantial jawlines.

What's important to reduce is the chin height and round it up a bit , but there is a limit to what you can do because of the inner size of the mouth and the teeths.

The brow bossing is the most annoying male thing and that's the one I wanted to remove the most in me, and I did (I had type I, which is not that big).

Quote from: Keira on September 25, 2007, 10:21:16 PM

The problem I often see is over operation, especially the jawline, I don't know why people want their jawline completely hacked away. Most beautiful women, including Grace Kelly (Tink will tell you :-), have substantial jawlines.

Because the large jaw is my main enemy, and no it is not comparable to Grace Kelly's at all. My brow is minimal and doesn't need any reduction. I have essentially no Adam's apple. For me it's all about the jaw and hairline (though I cover my hairline with scarves as a fashion statement). Last summer a woman told me that upon first meeting me she thought I was a regular woman and only found out I was trans when I stood up and said so. Then she thought to herself "So that explains the jaw."

The only actress I can think of with a prominent jaw is Fanny Ardant, but reviewers call her "beautiful" anyway.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nndb.com%2Fpeople%2F773%2F000092497%2Ffanny-sm.jpg&hash=f1a80995c258fc00242f9eb026eaf259d34ac57a)
Here a photographer is deliberately emphasizing it. What works for her is that her eyes and lips are strong enough to balance it--and what eyes!

The celebrity whose jaw, nose, and forehead most resemble mine is the singer Azam Ali.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fworldmusiccentral.org%2Fstaticpages%2Fimages%2FAzam-Ali.jpg&hash=8c46e17457d50ae5033ee8dbcd6322a96d3858fd)
My eyes are more symmetrical than hers, but I think my face is gradually starting to resemble hers, which is a comfort to me since I think she's absolutely gorgeous, even though I'll never be 1/10 as beautiful as her.

<sigh> I love brunettes.

Quote from: Tink on September 24, 2007, 08:43:16 PM
I was also checking out the website in Pia's quote.  For $11,000 I could go there too and have a number of procedures done.  Nevertheless I am a very skeptical person, and I was observing these photographs.....and....well....to me...they don't look like the same person.  Why?  because the neck and the ears (in both pictures) are different in size and shape.  So, since Pia is familiar with this surgeon, I would like to ask her where we can get information regarding recent results on different patients.  Hope you don't mind my asking, Pia.

I don't mind at all.  I will get all of you the information.  I will phone my roommate and ask her.  I'm in New York visiting relatives so I dont have the infomation available with me right now.  Tink, he's for real & a good surgeon.  I've seen his work first hand & it's sorta miraculous. :)

Pia, please post the information or PM me. Thanks!

What is the order you've had FFS?

I have never had any FFS but I think I need it to my upper forehead...

Any advice from those who have already had FFS?

What do you mean upper forehead?
Advance the hairline or brow bossing shave?
I suppose brow bossing shave would be lower forehead.

Quote from: Berliegh on November 04, 2007, 10:04:12 AM
What is the order you've had FFS?

I have never had any FFS but I think I need it to my upper forehead...

Any advice from those who have already had FFS?

To answer your question from PM those pictures are a quote from Tink.

Quote from: Keira on November 04, 2007, 10:10:08 AM

What do you mean upper forehead?
Advance the hairline or brow bossing shave?
I suppose brow bossing shave would be lower forehead.

Advance the forehead? I would have though a smalller forehead would be better than making it bigger?

I saw a FFS two months ago and he wanted to shave or flatten down my cheekbones, why? I thought it was a good feature....do that and my nose and chin will look big...

QuoteI saw a FFS two months ago and he wanted to shave or flatten down my cheekbones, why? I thought it was a good feature....do that and my nose and chin will look big...

i think that i'd value your opinion more than i'd value his kim.. He might be a specialist surgeon but he's not studied the difference between men and women like you have during your life.

if you are questioning his judgement even at this early stage i'd stay well away from him.

did you say that to him, about your nose and chin becoming disproportionate if he operated on your cheeks? what did he say??

although, obviously he's seen you in real life and us only in pictures.

the only thing i've learnt from being on these forums and in my life, is that i rarely trust pictures. Even if the taker is honest, they are at the best of times, only a tiny glimpse of what a person really is like in person.

if most people are treating you as a woman, in person, then you must look mostly, like a woman?

i dont know its all very confusing?

I wouldn't know but I saw a FFS surgeon today. He seems to think it's the upper forehead and brow with me and eveything else is ok..

Quote from: Keira on September 25, 2007, 10:21:16 PM

The problem I often see is over operation, especially the jawline, I don't know why people want their jawline completely hacked away.

Probably because the overwhelming majority of trans women have masculine jawlines and it is a major gender marker. I was in denial about my jawline and initially had the upper part of my face done. I went back and had the jaw done and it made all the difference in the world though no one could figure out what I had done.

Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

Melissa, I actually read a lot on gender markers and its not the jawline that's the marker its chin height.

The proof, look at Paris Hilton, Gwyneth's paltrow, Rebecca Romijn o and tell me they are not large and low. But they are all seen as very beautiful. There are hundreds of models and stars with horizontally wide jaws, actually having a significant jawline is more prominent in models and actresses than having an average recessed jawline.

Its how massive the lower face is that's the problem in the case of the jaw. If you've got a small chin in height, even with a jaw that's horizontally large, you're jaw and lower face won't look massive.

Quote from: Berliegh on November 13, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

you can, but not everyone can afford to do everything they want to do at one time, and might have to prioritize

Keira, could I ask you a question without offending you.

Do you think your jawline looks feminine?




Posted on: November 13, 2007, 06:31:26 PM

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Quote from: Kat on November 13, 2007, 11:03:57 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on November 13, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
Is there actually an order in which you have various parts of FFS? I thought the idea would be to do it all in one go?

you can, but not everyone can afford to do everything they want to do at one time, and might have to prioritize

One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process. If I had listened to my friends or the absurd contentions of the anti-FFS crowd here, I wouldn't be enjoying the astounding life that I have now.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process...

Denial of....?

~Kate~

just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

Quote from: sarah.s on November 14, 2007, 06:50:33 AM
just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

I don't know how things are post-9/11.  But I was at least a year on HRT when I traveled on my passport without any problems.  I knew of other people who used their male passports though living full time as female (they still had their legal male name, not sure why, but it worked for them I guess).

If nothing else, people gain weight, they lose weight, they lose hair, etc.  They don't always look just like their passport photo.  Though the one way I heard for sure to get scutinized is to either be wearing the same clothes as your passport photo or even have just gotten your passport right before traveling.

Quote from: sarah.s on November 14, 2007, 06:50:33 AM
just out of curiosity, for those who travelled to get FFS, were there any problems getting through the airport security checks, ie. passport photos?

There is a testimonial somewhere about a German woman who had FFS with Dr O who had some problems convincing German authorities she was a male, legally. Dr O (and others) I assume, provides his pateints with a certified letter stating that your appearance may have changed drastically.

Posted on: November 14, 2007, 02:33:32 PM

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Quote from: Kate on November 13, 2007, 06:41:01 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 13, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
One has to objectively assess one's needs which is hard to do as there is so much denial involved in the process...

Denial of....?

~Kate~

You really have to ask that?

Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 14, 2007, 01:36:54 PM
You really have to ask that?

Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

I don't disagree, but I think its open to intrepretation, getting read as male I think is largely situational.  That and except for the obvious "man in a dress", most people in most places are willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Yes for some FFS is a life saver, and we could probably all benefit on some level from it (but so too could non-TS females) but I think for most its over dramatized as absolutely necessary when all its really doing is fattening someone elses bank account.

Since most of my friends are GG's under 25 and because of the discussions we have, I'm SURE I'm not read by them.

but, since I've got minor FFS (rhino + brow bossing shave), I'm not the best argument against.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 14, 2007, 01:36:54 PM
Denial that one is not getting read as male. As a  recovering alcoholic/addict, I am quite familiar with how strong one's denial can be.

I also think many people are in denial about whether their issues lie on the outside... or inside... and often end up chasing a ghost via endless surgeries and searches for external validation.

Where does it end? What if someone has FFS and passes just fine with 1,000 people, and then... BAM. Someone reads her. Is she "in denial" if she doesn't head back for more surgery?

At SOME point, in order to find some sort of peace with ourselves, I think we need to find a healthy and realistic balance between our need for external validation and our own internal sense of self. I do realize that the two make a whole, and I can't exist in a vaccuum.

But just as I'd be in denial if I thought I could live an ordinary woman's life even though everyone was calling me sir, I'd also be in denial of my inner insecurities if my entire sense of self-worth rested on passing 100%.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on November 14, 2007, 06:46:58 PM

At SOME point, in order to find some sort of peace with ourselves, I think we need to find a healthy and realistic balance between our need for external validation and our own internal sense of self. I do realize that the two make a whole, and I can't exist in a vaccuum.

But just as I'd be in denial if I thought I could live an ordinary woman's life even though everyone was calling me sir, I'd also be in denial of my inner insecurities if my entire sense of self-worth rested on passing 100%.

Exactly.  And that balance must be made by the individual.  I think that's one of the primary reasons for RLE, before having any surgeries.  Couldn't have said it better myself, Kate.  Thanks.

Carol

Those who talk constantly about how well they "pass" are the ones in the deepest denial, some bordering on delusional.

When you are post-op and start dating and becoming intimate with multiple partners, (without disclosing) then you will know how well you pass.

Yeah, sure... Melissa.
Is that directed at anybody in particular, or to
all those your TS super-radar has detected...

I wish you'd focus on yourself instead
of psychanalizing others constantly.

I'll reiterate the question, Denial?
Is everybody who hasn't done FFS in denial?
That's some broad stroke your painting there.

For someone's who above the fray and into
budhism, you sure do not come off like that most times.

Oh now we are attacking the spiritual beliefs of members? What did I say to warrant that?

The truth is the truth.

On the contrary, Melissa, she holds Buddhism in high regard and wonders when will you live up to the ideals you espouse. Nonattachment and compassion for all beings, for example. Then there's anatta (nonexistence of the self).

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 15, 2007, 12:46:17 AM
When you are post-op and start dating and becoming intimate with multiple partners, (without disclosing) then you will know how well you pass.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that (this isn't it).

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 15, 2007, 12:46:17 AM
Those who talk constantly about how well they "pass" are the ones in the deepest denial, some bordering on delusional.

When you are post-op and start dating and becoming intimate with multiple partners, (without disclosing) then you will know how well you pass.

We so often seem to talk about "passing" as if it's a yes/no 100% absolute, which I don't think is fair or accurate. It seems to lead to these sorta arguments.

When I say "I pass," I simply mean I can function within *my* life's circumstances as Kate without problems. I'm not sexually active or hanging out in sex-oriented environments. I don't live in an area where TSs are common. I'm not going to TS conventions. My life is pretty ordinary and mainstream. And within my environment, people see and treat me as Kate.

I have no idea if the random stranger figures me out or not. But that's the point: even if they do, it's not affecting my life to any noticeable degree. I'm not delusional about it, I'm just practical. If it doesn't affect me, I don't care. And if my *experience* is of being Kate with everyone, then I pass. This isn't a competition for me. This is my life.

I think for some people, "passing" means the ability to live as their target sex with reasonable comfort and confidence that they're being seen and treated for who they are. If they aren't, then FFS is a wonderful way to gain the life they need.

But for others, passing seems to be some sort of competition, both with their own insecurities and other transsexuals to see who can best mimick genetic females. It's THOSE people who I fear pursue FFS for reasons which ultimately cause them more harm than good.

~Kate~

Melissa,
I'm not attacking a belief, I'm mentioning inconsistencies.
Notice I talked about behavior inconsistent with what I
know of that religion.

As for truth,
I don't believe anybody can set themselves as arbitrer of truth.
Its your point of view of the world, not truth.

Declaring that you know the truth is as for from being humble as can be.

*Grabs popcorn* Oooh, entertainment! Fight! Fight! Fight!

*considers telling everyone to get FFS like Amanda Lepore, but then figures people would freak at her and not get the humor of it all, so she keeps her mouth shut for now. She also wonders why her thoughts keep manifesting on the page with little stars around them, craziness!*

Sings, "I drink Champagne in the morning, I drink Champagne in the afternoon, I drink Champagne in the bubble bath, I drink Champagne in my dressing room...."

IMO there is alot of pushing and shoving going on here about the merits of having FFS or not.  I think it is purely a personal choice, not for anyone else to say 'you'll never pass, you're delusional.'
In the general population of GGs, there are ultra feminine women (facially I mean) and others with strong masculine features, and they can both be considered attractive, sexy, desirable etc.
In the film industry there are huge diversities, for eg: Eva Longeria and Elizabeth Taylor.  They couldn't look masculine if they tried!  While others have slightly masculine or boyish features like Keira Knightly, Rebecca Romijn.  The androgyny look seems to be 'in' atm.
For me I choose FFS, because it is imperative for me to have any semblance of a normal life.  If your life is going along pleasantly and YOU are happy with how you look, don't mess with it!  I am sick of being scrutinised everywhere I go, that is not a normal existence so off to the surgeon, it is! 
I have seen many TGs who do not pass, but for some reason they do not get any flak or the whole staring treatment!  So why I do, go figure.  Alot of effeminate gay guys seem to like me which I find surprising and wonder what is it they see.  I always get called ma'me, but with an added smile which I don't like!  I crave 'normal', and I want that so much it hurts.  If I achieve it is another matter.  I am not a positive person, never have been, I've been up and down like a yo-yo in this crazy life of mine and God keeps the rollercoaster ride going for me, I want the merry-go-round now, no more surprises, no more tears, no more 'what the hell am I doing?' moments!  Sometimes you just want to chuck it all in!  Some of us were given lemons, and many make lemonade, while mine seems to have turned into cyanide!

I don't know if there is a correct order to FFS.  (I think that was the question here.)  I have friends who have had "the works" and I am happy for them.  But I still think I personally prefer the gradual approach, doing little things as they present themselves.  My worst feature has always been my eyes.  Insurance finally decided to pay for them, so I am glad to get that out of the way.  I'd like to have the bump on my nose removed and my upper lip enhanced, but that's all I'd like to do, except maybe some of that new gel injection into my cheeks.  There was a post a while back about some product that would help with the lips, but I can't find it.  I have fairly feminine features, so I am told.  Not a strong jaw line, oval face, and practically no adam's apple.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

My face is not so horrible that I have to choose between FFS and putting a sack over my head - but then it isn't so excellent either. It's fair to middlin, and while I would certainly benefit from FFS, I'm also managing to get by without it. My face used to be hopeless, but in the past half year or so my female presentation has blossomed and come into its own, making my transition possible at last. I get called "ma'am" wherever I go now, in the usual blasé matter-of-fact tone of voice used by public servants, and with no signifying smiles, smirks, or inflections from strangers. No more puzzled, dismayed, or surprised facial expressions on others, no more stares or dirty looks. That means I'm generally perceived as a woman,* not as a dude in a dress. So I'm pretty happy with that. I would really love a good FFS job on my jaw and nose (I'm lucky I got no brow ridges or Adam's apple) -- but I'm not so bad off to justify the huge expense? It's hard to decide in my case.

*Instead of "passing," I prefer to say "being perceived correctly as the woman I am."

Quote from: Hypatia on November 18, 2007, 10:11:20 PM
My face is not so horrible that I have to choose between FFS and putting a sack over my head - but then it isn't so excellent either. It's fair to middlin, and while I would certainly benefit from FFS, I'm also managing to get by without it. My face used to be hopeless, but in the past half year or so my female presentation has blossomed and come into its own, making my transition possible at last. I get called "ma'am" wherever I go now, in the usual blasé matter-of-fact tone of voice used by public servants, and with no signifying smiles, smirks, or inflections from strangers. No more puzzled, dismayed, or surprised facial expressions on others, no more stares or dirty looks. That means I'm generally perceived as a woman,* not as a dude in a dress. So I'm pretty happy with that. I would really love a good FFS job on my jaw and nose (I'm lucky I got no brow ridges or Adam's apple) -- but I'm not so bad off to justify the huge expense? It's hard to decide in my case.

*Instead of "passing," I prefer to say "being perceived correctly as the woman I am."

You look like an older woman.  I have met you multiple times and that is the impression I get.  Me on the other hand I have to get FFS to deal with the massive nose and brow ridge, and horrid hairline (which you have never seen because I wear a wig). 

Yes, Amy, you're the only one in this forum who has met me IRL. You look great, sister, if you ask me. I look like an older woman because I am one, heck I'm a grandmother--and I like it. All I want to be is simply who I am, a mature woman. As for my horrid hairline, I wear scarves over it. :) We all do what we can to get by in life. We can carry it off primarily because we believe in ourselves. We know the women that we are from deep down inside, and that is the most important "facial feminization" of all.

Quote from: morticia on November 25, 2007, 03:48:41 AM
I say I need FFS because that face I see in the mirror looking back at me, it isn't me.
No matter what other people may think I need or don't need, it's MY OPINION and MY CHOICE to have FFS before SRS.

You should definitely go for it.
Start saving and investing. Check out Suze Orman (http://www.suzeorman.com/)'s Women & Money.

I would be fairly upset if I heard that conversation now questioning my gender.  Largely because it NEVER happens to me.  Its always, young lady, miss, or ma'am.  I never overhear kids saying that stuff, and I would. 

Its not that I am striking.  The truth is my face is very similar to several natal females in Chicago I am friends with.  Yeah its not perfectly feminine, but its not really masculine either. 

I hate my parts of my face, but really only the forehead and hairline have issues.  That is why I am being selective with what gets tinkered with.  I don't want to mess with my jaw and I don't need too.