Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is a real life experience, and one which I ought to have the experience to deal with by my age - and you all know why I don't.

At a social group on Wednesday morning a guy starting giving me "inappropriate" attention.  A hand across my shoulders is a bit familiar, but fingering my bra straps is too much.  Touching my hand - which was on my thigh - is probably OK, but putting his hand on my thigh is too much.  How to deal with it?

If he knew nothing of my 'history' it would be a bit creepy as I am probably 20 years older than him.  However it is fairly clear he does know, which in my opinion makes it a lot more sinister.  Any thoughts on that?

One of the women where I live, who is nearly 80, said she would go straight to "F*** OFF!!!"  As I let him get away with it that time I feel I have to start more gently.  I was thinking:
1. X, you are making me uncomfortable.
2. Back off, X.
3. (Raises voice) Touch me like that again and it's a harassment charge.

At that group I would have plenty of backup but I do have to learn to deal with this sort of thing by myself.

I would say choice #1. I have had a rule my entire career within three feet is close enough unless I initiate or want the attention. This position should be respected by all as some virus and sickness can be spread easily within this distance (Ie flu, etc). Choice #2 could initiate a physical confrontation by challenging someone like throwing a glove down. Choice #3 could label you as someone to avoid and not invite to other social functions and could lead to isolation. This is merely my opinion based on 28 years as a paramedic with people of all socio-economic classes, religious belief's etc. Be gentle, yet firm. Hope this helps?

I didn't interpret the 3 things as choices.  From my understanding they were steps to take i.e. if #1 doesn't do the job, move on the #2, if that doesn't work, move on to #3

Just food for thought on consequences of action reactions. You're right on though, it is like the police use of force pyramid where escalation is based on changing circumstances. Up the encounter, up the reaction.

Don't like #1 - he obviously doesn't believe he could make someone uncomfortable, or doesn't care.

I would opt for repositioning myself, if possible, so he is not near me. If that's not possible, I would give an unambiguous "Don't touch me!" If he persists after either of these measures, threats or action would be appropriate.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 28, 2013, 09:35:13 AM
Don't like #1 - he obviously doesn't believe he could make someone uncomfortable, or doesn't care.

Couldn't be that he doesn't know it makes her uncomfortable?  I don't think you can assume nefarious intentions

I did mean try #1 and if it doesn't work try #2 and if that doesn't work go to #3 and make eye contact with known supporters in the group.  Sorry - not clear.

I am still concerned about a man approaching a woman a couple of decades older than him - knowing she is trans*.

Quote from: MaryXYX on September 28, 2013, 08:23:18 AM

If he knew nothing of my 'history' it would be a bit creepy as I am probably 20 years older than him.  However it is fairly clear he does know, which in my opinion makes it a lot more sinister.  Any thoughts on that?

Oh yes he has "nefarious intentions" it is actually the root of the problem! He is obviously envisioning the same kinds of fantasy's that all ->-bleeped-<-s do. Any kind of touchy-feely attention should be reserved for those you have given the signals to, anyone else's attentions would always be unwelcome. I am an outgoing, friendly personality type but even so, people don't get inside my comfort zone which is an arms reach without my having allowed it by giving those kinds of body language signals that it is OK. That being said, the person Mary is dealing with is a creep and she needs to confront him next time by simply saying, "You make me very uncomfortable and I expect you to keep your hands to yourself and stop your hovering behavior!" If you don't nip this sort of thing in the bud then Mr. Fantasy will think he has your tacit approval to continue on with it.

Quote from: Shantel on September 28, 2013, 10:02:01 AM
Oh yes he has "nefarious intentions" it is actually the root of the problem! He is obviously envisioning the same kinds of fantasy's that all ->-bleeped-<-s do. Any kind of touchy-feely attention should be reserved for those you have given the signals to, anyone else's attentions would always be unwelcome. I am an outgoing, friendly personality type but even so, people don't get inside my comfort zone which is an arms reach without my having allowed it by giving those kinds of body language signals that it is OK. That being said, the person Mary is dealing with is a creep and she needs to confront him next time by simply saying, "You make me very uncomfortable and I expect you to keep your hands to yourself and stop your hovering behavior!" If you don't nip this sort of thing in the bud then Mr. Fantasy will think he has your tacit approval to continue on with it.

Yep, what Shantel said. I've had that issue with a few people and telling them outright to leave you alone is the best route. They don't seem to take hints that well. They always creep me out as I don't want anyone attracted to me because I'm trans.

Agreed Shantel - I will have to be ready to explain that I allowed him to proceed last time because I was taken by surprise and didn't have time to make a good response.  I will also have to learn how to deal with people who are a bit over friendly - I can probably accept that in a safe environment - and distinguish this sort quicker.

I have collected an "admirer" on a TV/TG site and I'm practicing on him.  I'm ignoring his suggestions that we would get on better if I gave him my IM contact or private email details!  I'm playing one against the other now by asking him for advice on getting rid of the guy I'm talking about in this thread.

Quote from: Jaime something or other... on September 28, 2013, 10:10:37 AM
Yep, what Shantel said. I've had that issue with a few people and telling them outright to leave you alone is the best route. They don't seem to take hints that well. They always creep me out as I don't want anyone attracted to me because I'm trans.

Exactly.  I need to learn to identify that sort quicker, and be ready to go quickly from hint to plain "Get lost".

Quote from: MaryXYX on September 28, 2013, 10:20:45 AM
Agreed Shantel - I will have to be ready to explain that I allowed him to proceed last time because I was taken by surprise and didn't have time to make a good response.  I will also have to learn how to deal with people who are a bit over friendly - I can probably accept that in a safe environment - and distinguish this sort quicker.

I have collected an "admirer" on a TV/TG site and I'm practicing on him.  I'm ignoring his suggestions that we would get on better if I gave him my IM contact or private email details!  I'm playing one against the other now by asking him for advice on getting rid of the guy I'm talking about in this thread.

Sounds good Mary, there is a time to become assertive and there is a time be sweet!

Let me assure you, these sorts are cowards. I've also read stories about women getting groped on the bus or the train, and when they confront their attackers outright, the creeps run off. I would skip option #1, saying "you're making me uncomfortable" comes off, to me, as too passive. Though, if you said what Shantel said (adding on the "I expect you to keep your hands to yourself") that would be good.

If #3 doesn't work go to 4.

4. Punch him in the nose or grab his junk and squeeze hard.

I'm the kind of person that would just find a chance to sit somewhere else... or project that I don't want him doing that stuff with my body language, like leaning away from him or turning my back to him abruptly... idk it all depends. But I don't normally say anything, I let my actions do the talking if I can.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 28, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
I'm the kind of person that would just find a chance to sit somewhere else... or project that I don't want him doing that stuff with my body language, like leaning away from him or turning my back to him abruptly... idk it all depends. But I don't normally say anything, I let my actions do the talking if I can.

Sometimes body language speaks louder than words, so that would be an excellent way to deal with it.

Clear body language together with one of the milder spoken version might be a good first try.  I tend not to think of non verbal signals because of the Asperger's.

I would think punching him could be dangerous.  On the one hand he could respond in kind - I don't think this guy would, and on the other he could call it assault.  A good scream would be better, especially in a public place.  I might have to find a secluded spot and practice!

I'm collecting the suggestions to ponder.  There is a chance I will meet him at the Bible Study this evening, but if not next Wednesday is very likely.

Quote from: MaryXYX on September 29, 2013, 11:02:14 AM
Clear body language together with one of the milder spoken version might be a good first try.  I tend not to think of non verbal signals because of the Asperger's.

I would think punching him could be dangerous.  On the one hand he could respond in kind - I don't think this guy would, and on the other he could call it assault.  A good scream would be better, especially in a public place.  I might have to find a secluded spot and practice!

I'm collecting the suggestions to ponder.  There is a chance I will meet him at the Bible Study this evening, but if not next Wednesday is very likely.

My spouse refuses to attend church mostly because of the men that disguise their groping as Christian brotherly love for a sister in the Lord. But there will always be tares (weeds) in the wheat field, just another of life's challenges to make us aware of the basic nature of man!

Quote from: Shantel on September 29, 2013, 11:22:44 AM
My spouse refuses to attend church mostly because of the men that disguise their groping as Christian brotherly love for a sister in the Lord. But there will always be tares (weeds) in the wheat field, just another of life's challenges to make us aware of the basic nature of man!

Now that one would get a hefty slap, or perhaps even an uppercut to the chin.  The men I tend to get close to in my church are mostly gay - I'm still waiting for one of the lesbians to make advances!

It is another scenario to be aware of though.

I usually just end up making up some excuse to leave in situations like that, I'm not good at being assertive or dealing with conflict.

I'm really not good at either too, but I reckon I need to learn to manage such situations better.

The next encounter was the following week.  I was sitting with a couple of other people and he approached from behind me, so I didn't know he was there until he touched my hair and made some comment about it blowing away - it was.  Then he put his hand on my shoulder.  Both of these are a bit over friendly but not objectionable.  I pulled back and put my hand to my face in an obviously defensive pose and he withdrew.  I must have been on automatic because I hadn't planned that sort of response.

I do feel I have to learn responses that discourage unwelcome approaches but don't lead to conflict.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on September 28, 2013, 03:44:25 PM
If #3 doesn't work go to 4.

4. Punch him in the nose or grab his junk and squeeze hard.

Grab his junk and squeeze hard seems the better option. Punching him in the nose is not very lady like  ;D

Edit: Especially if one is wearing a dress/skirt lol

Quote from: MaryXYX on October 07, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
I'm really not good at either too, but I reckon I need to learn to manage such situations better.

The next encounter was the following week.  I was sitting with a couple of other people and he approached from behind me, so I didn't know he was there until he touched my hair and made some comment about it blowing away - it was.  Then he put his hand on my shoulder.  Both of these are a bit over friendly but not objectionable.  I pulled back and put my hand to my face in an obviously defensive pose and he withdrew.  I must have been on automatic because I hadn't planned that sort of response.

I do feel I have to learn responses that discourage unwelcome approaches but don't lead to conflict.

I think you did good with the withdraw.even if you felt the extent was uncalled for,this is a perfect time to have that respectful conversation with him on personal bounds,how it made you feel and things like that.The removal was a good sign that he got how it made you feel.So i would take advantage of the situation and let him know.Just give a more understanding and im sure it wont lead to conflict.

Quote from: Chaos on October 31, 2013, 03:58:28 AM
I think you did good with the withdraw.even if you felt the extent was uncalled for,this is a perfect time to have that respectful conversation with him on personal bounds,how it made you feel and things like that.The removal was a good sign that he got how it made you feel.So i would take advantage of the situation and let him know.Just give a more understanding and im sure it wont lead to conflict.

I think you're right Chaos, too bad it even has to be though. It's my observation that some cis men think they are too cool to have to be constrained by boundaries around women and assume that women think they are cute when they do these things which I suspect is coupled with an underlying low opinion of women in general. Same is true of cis women who can clearly see evidence that a man is married and is wearing a wedding band but still proceed to make every effort to insert themselves into the union using flattery and visual effects to gain attention. We seem to be living in a time where for some there are no boundaries and everything goes.

My take on this is that a situation like this can turn on you if handled badly. You stated it is a social setting. Have you confided the discomfort of the situation to other girl friends? We naturally protect each other as the strength is in the herd. You may want to stay in the middle of the herd. A simple, "why do you keep pawing on her, can't you see she doesn't like it?" will sometimes do more than trying to settle it alone. When I encounter that sort of thing I always try to be a lady first. Evasion is my first tactic, I look with the eyes in the back of my head and seldom sit in a way people can come up behind me. Also girl friends can alert you he is swooping in. Many disapproving female eyes will shut down most men. If that does nothing your creep meter should be pegged. A discreet conversation with your local PD may be in order too. Formal charges or a restraining order can also initiate a dangerous clandestine vendetta from him. They can just keep a watchful eye and it is proof you are the victim, not the instigator. From there, watch him and your own behavior, what does it look like to others. That's sad but maybe fact.

Here is a scenario of it turning on me. Regardless of what I do, I am a potential target. Let say God forbid, I am arrested for any reason in an altercation of trying to physically protect myself. If I make a huge inappropriate scene, I have just been culled from the heard. If it goes to the courthouse docket, I am sitting in the same row as others of petty offences. As the news media is scanning for juicy mud and ratings, they scan the line. They pass over all others as nothing they can use. Oh boy! We have a headline. PERVERT TRANS SEXUAL ATTACKS UPSTANDING CITIZEN, FLEES TO LADIES ROOM AND HOLDS CHILDREN CAPTIVE! NASTY PERPETRATOR BROUGHT TO JUSTICE TODAY! Don't doubt that is could never go just that overboard. They would have their sensational headlines, then my life becomes a circus and they don't care the damage done to me or my children. I am an expendable non-human in their eyes, so they care little if it would ruin me. The burden of proof may be on the accuser, except the news media and also smears of public opinion. Tell me I'm wrong?

Please tread carefully. Touching an man in the groin, any contact there of any kind, not matter how well deserved, instantly brands you the pervert. After all, they all know that is your true underlying motive, to get to men's crotches. Don't let our societies sickness harm you. Don't ever open that door. Hug. Joann

Quote from: Skittles on October 31, 2013, 10:28:15 AM
My take on this is that a situation like this can turn on you if handled badly. You stated it is a social setting. Have you confided the discomfort of the situation to other girl friends? We naturally protect each other as the strength is in the herd. You may want to stay in the middle of the herd. A simple, "why do you keep pawing on her, can't you see she doesn't like it?" will sometimes do more than trying to settle it alone. When I encounter that sort of thing I always try to be a lady first. Evasion is my first tactic, I look with the eyes in the back of my head and seldom sit in a way people can come up behind me. Also girl friends can alert you he is swooping in. Many disapproving female eyes will shut down most men. If that does nothing your creep meter should be pegged. A discreet conversation with your local PD may be in order too. Formal charges or a restraining order can also initiate a dangerous clandestine vendetta from him. They can just keep a watchful eye and it is proof you are the victim, not the instigator. From there, watch him and your own behavior, what does it look like to others. That's sad but maybe fact.

Here is a scenario of it turning on me. Regardless of what I do, I am a potential target. Let say God forbid, I am arrested for any reason in an altercation of trying to physically protect myself. If I make a huge inappropriate scene, I have just been culled from the heard. If it goes to the courthouse docket, I am sitting in the same row as others of petty offences. As the news media is scanning for juicy mud and ratings, they scan the line. They pass over all others as nothing they can use. Oh boy! We have a headline. PERVERT TRANS SEXUAL ATTACKS UPSTANDING CITIZEN, FLEES TO LADIES ROOM AND HOLDS CHILDREN CAPTIVE! NASTY PERPETRATOR BROUGHT TO JUSTICE TODAY! Don't doubt that is could never go just that overboard. They would have their sensational headlines, then my life becomes a circus and they don't care the damage done to me or my children. I am an expendable non-human in their eyes, so they care little if it would ruin me. The burden of proof may be on the accuser, except the news media and also smears of public opinion. Tell me I'm wrong?

Please tread carefully. Touching an man in the groin, any contact there of any kind, not matter how well deserved, instantly brands us the pervert. After all, they all know that is our true underlying motive, to get to men's crotches. Don't let our society's sickness harm you. Don't ever open that door. Hug. Joann

That was supposed to be an edit, not a quote. Joann Ditz strikes again! Giggle. Sorry I do have my blonde moments.

The setting where I meet this guy is a social group for lonely and vulnerable people.  I'm a volunteer and he's a client.  Yesterday he was a bit more "friendly" than I would like but not what I could call inappropriate.  I think I should go to something like "please don't touch me, it makes me uncomfortable".  Even though I am comfortable with a hand on the shoulder or something like that.

The other volunteers would be happy to back me up, but I want to try to control the situation by myself.

Be direct.  Its the only way to be.  Hints and cues can be mysteries to most.  A casual, hey I'm not interested or get out of my space IS GREAT.  I can personally tell you in my mansperiences that women can at times be confusing to men when hormones are involved.  If all else fails, a firm, get lost loser will certainly get the point across.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on November 02, 2013, 04:45:11 PM
Be direct.  Its the only way to be.  Hints and cues can be mysteries to most.  A casual, hey I'm not interested or get out of my space IS GREAT.  I can personally tell you in my mansperiences that women can at times be confusing to men when hormones are involved.  If all else fails, a firm, get lost loser will certainly get the point across.

OK - I do need to learn to be firm too.  I'll try to keep him completely off me.

Quote from: MaryXYX on November 02, 2013, 05:26:27 PM
OK - I do need to learn to be firm too.  I'll try to keep him completely off me.

Personally wouldn't mind some of that attention coming my way.