Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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http://www.upworthy.com/when-a-gay-guy-gets-nabbed-by-the-sexual-orientation-police-3 (http://www.upworthy.com/when-a-gay-guy-gets-nabbed-by-the-sexual-orientation-police-3)

^.^  I won't lie, I like T-boys just like I like most boys that have style.  I'm generally a lesbian but hell why should anyone have to bow to gay-strait stereotypes? :)  I've had a crush on Justin Timber lake for year, but I mean, Who wouldn't? 

HHAHAHAHAHAHA one of those guys said "post testosterone" and another said "Penis-in-vagina" lololololololol.

Heee Heeee

I remember a conversation that a fellow trans*woman and I had with a cis female friend, who BTW is a friend and totally understanding - well tries to be.

She asks so what is your sexual orientation?

I'm straight - that means I like straight guys

Oh - we can see the struggle in her face.

And my friend pipes up

I'm lesbian - I like woman

But, she says, you are both pre-op, so isn't Cindy Gay and you straight?

Nope says I. I would would be Gay if I liked woman, and M would be straight if she liked guys.

Oh and her face is a mass of conflict. After a few seconds she gives up.

"Lets go have a coffee."

So we did.

I don't know, I'm not one who's easily offended but the cartoon made me uncomfortable. It's almost as if trans guys are being portrayed as some sort of living, breathing sex toy. All it mentioned was how he likes trans guys because they're usually shorter than cis guys (which is a fact that's very painful for some of us) and because they're more "butch" even though I wouldn't really use the term "butch" for trans men because they're just just dressing as men in a butch style, they actually are men. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I didn't like it. The guy in the cartoon also seems to be trying way too hard to justify his own sexuality and why he likes trans guys over cis guys when really, who cares? You like what you like and shouldn't have to justify that to anyone, especially not yourself. And "gold star gay" I've never heard of that term until now but it's disgusting what people will consider a badge of honor sometimes. It reminds me of the frat boys at my college who gave badges and awards to the one who deflowered the most girls.

That being said, I have nothing against people who are attracted to trans men because of their physicality. It's just an area we have to be careful in because sometimes that's the only thing people want.

you might be reading too much into it.

the guy first tried to justify his sexuality. but that's a normal reaction when you're attacked and not recognized for who you are.
it mentions how hormones matter. they really do matter when it comes to sexual attraction, so it's not weird if that's his experience.
the guy stressed that sex was a very minimal part of a relationship. i don't see the "living breathing sex toy" that you see.
he only says three of his four last relationships were with trans men. who knows how many he had before that... when he says he may have a thing for short guys, i read it as meaning that he doesn't have a thing for vagina, so it's not their transness that attracts him. he just presents it as one possible reason for why he finds himself more attracted to men who happen to be short (and/or trans) lately.
i find "gold star gay" somewhat biphobic. but the comic probably uses it to stress that the guy's nowhere near being bisexual. meaning he'd never touch a person he saw as a woman, or even close to being one.

Quotebutch |boŏ ch | informal
adjective
manlike or masculine in appearance or behavior, typically aggressively or ostentatiously so.

from my laptop dictionary. "butch" can be used about a person of any gender.

and i don't really think this was written mainly for trans people. it's for or about people who have problems understanding that a man is a man even if he happens to have been born with a vagina.

Quote from: Contravene on October 01, 2013, 05:34:55 AM
I don't know, I'm not one who's easily offended but the cartoon made me uncomfortable. It's almost as if trans guys are being portrayed as some sort of living, breathing sex toy. All it mentioned was how he likes trans guys because they're usually shorter than cis guys (which is a fact that's very painful for some of us) and because they're more "butch" even though I wouldn't really use the term "butch" for trans men because they're just just dressing as men in a butch style, they actually are men. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I didn't like it. The guy in the cartoon also seems to be trying way too hard to justify his own sexuality and why he likes trans guys over cis guys when really, who cares? You like what you like and shouldn't have to justify that to anyone, especially not yourself. And "gold star gay" I've never heard of that term until now but it's disgusting what people will consider a badge of honor sometimes. It reminds me of the frat boys at my college who gave badges and awards to the one who deflowered the most girls.

That being said, I have nothing against people who are attracted to trans men because of their physicality. It's just an area we have to be careful in because sometimes that's the only thing people want.

I find no fault in any of these excellent points, and I agree.

Though perhaps... just perhaps... it was so to portray the purview of those who actually do rationalize us in these ways. In other words, we know and perhaps this artist/captioner knows, we're not like that and it to us isn't like that, but its more of an inside joke (for us) on behalf of the illiterate who do think that way? I mean, that is entirely possible and I'm leaning towards it by the virtue of that this is supposed to be like one of those Sunday newspaper comedy strips... but yeah, it is still too indistinct to really be sure.


Personally, no hard feelings. I'm Asexual so... I have no personal stake in this one. :icon_lalala:

i liked them, thanks for sharing =]

I thought it was cute. Thanks for sharing.

There's so many problems here. Sadly, I'm a terrible writer and can't make a cohesive writing on what's wrong. Thankfully other people have pointed out all the problems!

I should add as an amendment if its not clear from the comic that trans men does not necessarily equal man with a vagina; as Bill points out, it's not a female body unless they label it that way, and different parts are labelled different things. I also think its a bit of a cop out saying 'I wouldn't put it that way but yeah basically' when you're asked about your trans partner's body. If someone said that about me (that I basically have a female body, when I've had extreme dysphoria over that) it would feel like a gigantic kick in the teeth.
If you're able to educate, leave it as 'I wouldn't describe their body that way: it's a male body.' Or simply leave it. Don't be a cop out and say something that could hurt your partner, even behind their back. And also, [some] trans men do have penises attached to them permanently, not just on the shelf. I see it joked around a lot that trans guys are better in bed because they have an array of d*cks, whereas many just own one for penetration and one flesh one which is attached to them. Some have a connection between the two: it's not a toy, it's their penis and you shouldnt treat it as an object. Or they could penetrate after an operation. I know lots of guys that like penetration penises to be as natural as possible- so not big purple and knobbly, but average sized and discreet. In all, I think this is effective for elaborating on my earlier post about genital attraction.
The reason why I generally don't date gay cis guys is because of this: they've been pretty much brainwashed by mainstream thinking that vagina is gross and they can't like it if they're gay. This is also the reason I've been with trans men only in long term relationships. And casual ->-bleeped-<-s. And basically everything. Amendment to the amendment: I'm often a lot camper than my male partners. Masculinity is redundant.


Also, that panel where he says he'd only be attracted to the same guy AFTER he's on T? I feel really weird about that. To me, that smacks of objectification; he's not attracted to the person, it's purely about the way their hormones make them look. If someone is ONLY attracted to me because I've got a certain set of hormones in my system at that moment in time, how meaningful is their attraction? This is a tricky subject, because yeah sexual orientation based on a "look" is a real and valid thing. I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to change what they're sexually attracted to, but I want it acknowledged that some preferences like this are almost undoubtedly based upon implicit cissexism. He uses language to disown responsibility for his attraction patterns by saying "my libido has its own criteria for when it responds." It's not him, it's just his libido.

It's unspoken that when he says he is attracted to trans* guys what he actually means is "I'm attracted to masculine, c*ck-identified trans* men who have been on and stayed on T at a full dosage for a while." That is NOT the same as being attracted to trans* men. This implicitly seems to assume that all trans* men are c*ck-identified, which they aren't. And that all trans* guys want to go on and stay on T, which they don't.

Plus, I (and many other guys) don't label that particular genital shape a "vagina" and it's gross having my body labeled that way without my consent by a cis person.

This whole comic sort of seems like "I'm open-minded because I'm less transphobic than some cis gay men, I'm so awesome because I deign to date trans* people. And poor me, I'm a cis person who has to field a tiny bit of transphobia, this is awful." Yeah, it's awful—now imagine how ->-bleeped-<-ed up this feels for his PARTNERS, at whom this transphobia is actually directed. Because let me tell you, it's sh*tty knowing that your partner's sexual orientation is questioned solely because they're with you. (Or, if you're dating someone who previously identified as lesbian, NOT having anyone question their sexuality just because they're with you) Not once in this whole comic does the author acknowledge that the flack he gets for dating trans* men is transphobia which might have a negative impact on his partners because it's actually directed at them, not him.

There's more here (http://bittersweetfluidquandary.tumblr.com/post/58700566565/gaytransguys-violetmagician)
Other people's words that were copy/pasted have been censored, and edited to be easier to read, but the linked post is not, and contains more content.

Well... personally, I found it a bit uncomfortable. I think the author means well, but overall it does remind me of the fact that I'm likely to face this sort of gender/orientation policing and general awkwardness all the time when I launch myself back into the dating pool. It's pretty heartbreaking that plenty of guys will see me as being 'really a girl' no matter what. :(

I am not gay, well I don't think I am. I've seen these before on FB. I heard some people were uncomfortable with some stuff which might be stereotypical. I read his page, he said this is ONLY his experience, and didn't imply anybody else's.


--Jay

It's all over my facebook. I like the comic. ^^

I can kinda relate. I feel bisexual but my label also been seams be in struggle because I had relationship/chrushes on other transgenders.
So people think I should be pansexual insteed when I am attracted to other transgenders..
I disagree that you cant be straight gay or bisexual just because you find transgender attractive, or even if your main attraction have been for transgenders. I think thats pretty much what the comic is all about this "sexualety police" that if you fall for someone transgender then you people will talk crap that you cant be gay-straight-lesbian anymore or whatever they say.

sad but true..

Hormones matter not only because of how they maje people look, but also because of how they make people smell. There are certain scents that attract me more, others that make me want to puke. Much of it is caused by genetics, but hormones and diet also play a part here. I believe that initial attraction is caused by much more than just what the eyes can register.

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Don't mind me I'm jsut stirren this pot ^.^


Oh and Taka, your damn right about the smell.  Before HRT I didn't know about that.  and I still love girls most of all.  But well there is something pleasant about that boy smell xD. 

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P.s.  I had the idea off a Stiring the pot Meme and the first pic is the one I settled on but I liked these as well xD

Quote from: Taka on October 01, 2013, 06:08:26 AM
from my laptop dictionary. "butch" can be used about a person of any gender.

I can see how the term could make a trans man uncomfortable since it's often used to describe a certain type of lesbian, but it's also a word gay men commonly use to describe gay men who are more masculine / less effeminate.

I like the comic, and could comment on several points some have  found problematic, but it's my bed-time so I'll just pick one.

He's not stating he "wouldn't date someone pre-t". That panel shows him being introduced to a person before and after t. Before, there's simply no attraction. When meeting him again, after t, there is. Why? I would assume because of some of the changes one gets from T, the same changes that tend to tip guys from being gendered as female to male. If I see a pic in a "before and after"-thread and find someone attractive after t, but not at all interesting pre-t, am I a bad person? I'd say no. It simply means the t has changed the guy's appearance in a way that makes the person more interesting to me. That would be my libido going "Well hey there..."  That doesn't mean I wouldn't date anyone pre-t, but I'd be more likely to be attracted to someone on t than not.

Quote from: John Smith on October 01, 2013, 05:03:24 PM
I like the comic, and could comment on several points some have  found problematic, but it's my bed-time so I'll just pick one.

He's not stating he "wouldn't date someone pre-t". That panel shows him being introduced to a person before and after t. Before, there's simply no attraction. When meeting him again, after t, there is. Why? I would assume because of some of the changes one gets from T, the same changes that tend to tip guys from being gendered as female to male. If I see a pic in a "before and after"-thread and find someone attractive after t, but not at all interesting pre-t, am I a bad person? I'd say no. It simply means the t has changed the guy's appearance in a way that makes the person more interesting to me. That would be my libido going "Well hey there..."  That doesn't mean I wouldn't date anyone pre-t, but I'd be more likely to be attracted to someone on t than not.

I think it would make sense John. However, I think in this guy's case it was VERY literal. When he met his last trans guy first he was not on T. He kind of didnt' think of him and then he met him the second time and he's on T, and he did. So it seems like just when you get interested in someone, sometiems its not the first time. This is a very personal type comic, very much his own view. I think there is a certain sweetness to it, but as people say it does maybe go to some other stereotypes. We got into quite a big discussion of this in one of the FB groups I'm in with some people really liking and some disliking strongly. But it did help some guys to see this as a personal view.

@Jennifer, well this got to be a discussion on another group I'm in. I think this has been making the rounds, so to speak.


--Jay

Don't see why people need to get offended about everything *rolls eyes*

Quote from: Geek on October 02, 2013, 01:54:56 AM
Don't see why people need to get offended about everything *rolls eyes*

I don't see why people need to keep making offensive cartoons *rolls eyes*

Quote from: Nygeel on October 02, 2013, 02:25:55 AM
I don't see why people need to keep making offensive cartoons *rolls eyes*

ROFL yes whatever you say cupcake

I think that all in all it's a good cartoon. It definitely helps put things into perspective if you're a gay trans guy and worried that gay guys won't want to date you.

It does come off as a bit defensive, but it's probably because he's had his sexual orientation questioned so many times and he wants to explain as much as he can.

Sorry but I see this as somewhat offensive. The whole thing is basically regarding us as being female and not sure how anyone can be ok with that. Ok the guy is gay and is with them not seeing himself as straight, but rather than defend his partner when the ignorant cis guy questions their anatomy he just goes along with it saying basically that makes us female. Firstly its none of their business what our anatomy is and shouldnt disclose that to anyone in the first place, secondly he should consider his partner a bit more than trying so desparately to 'defend' himself. Honestly if someone called me that I would leave them if thats how they considered me. Im sure this was all meant well but it sends completely the wrong message to me. All it demonstrates is he's less transphobic than others might be but he still has alot to work on there. All I actually like is showing that gay guys can be open to being with trans guys. He may have been questioned alot for it but think how his partners felt with whom it was directed towards. He seems to only be thinking of himself and trying to justify it. The message is still flawed. It doesnt even take into account the fact that we can have surgery with results now that people cant tell we're trans. All it wants to talk about is 'female anatomy' which is the last thing any trans man should want to hear. To me it comes across as we're guys but basically really girls. Yeah thanks for that one. I dont want my body considered that way by anyone. We do not all have that anatomy and even if it is the case it should not be considered in the way it was here. Just makes it sound as if its all fake. When its needed just get it off the shelf.. Yeah some of us have it attached and its very much real. He might think hes being cool about it, and in some ways is, but he needs to think how his actions and words affect his partners, and hell every other trans man out there. I dont see how its ok in the slightest. There are a few good messages but the whole is flawed to me. Certainly demonstrates the general ignorant cis view that we're only defined by genitals and he is a bit better than that cause its not all about that but still considering it as female anatomy is seriously irritating me


Glad Im not the only one who sees problems with this. I agree with everything Nygeel said. Im hardly just being sensitive either, my cis girlfriend was also not happy by the way this comes across. She has never seen me as anything other than male and if asked would either say so or tell them its none of their damn business. She would never say I am 'basically female' regardless of my current body because she has a hell of alot more respect than that. Not just for me but for anyone else out there too. Why would you even divulge your partner's sexual anatomy to anyone else to begin with anyway? I date men but he has ____ , why?


I just needed to get that out it has been annoying me. I do see the good but I also see the bad which shouldnt be ignored. Yes it is only one person's view but if he has it you can bet theres plenty others who do too. Sure alot can be worse but I've certainly seen better too

I don't really have a problem with this comic. Actually I've thought a bout this thing for a while and I don't understand some of the issues people have with it.
It says we're essentially female: Uhm, that's not how I read it. It says one time we're physically speaking essentially female. Now  while that isn't the most gentle or pc way to put things if you started arguing with clueless straight guy as put in the comic saying that a vagina isn't female per se, even physically speaking will get you nowhere. Then the comic proceeds to say: I only date men (so clearly he considers us male), some of the guys I date have a vagina (so yes, we have that part that's a reality it's not the word most of us like to use but it's there, yet as he says that doesn't make us any less men).
It makes a big deal about the penis: uhm, I read it as pointing out that people make a big deal about the penis but that really it's not: as he says there are lots of other parts that are important, and if his hot boyfriend likes it he'll like it too and that you know things can be helped, whatever, it's all good.
Lastly the whole not attracted pre-testosterone, attracted post-testo and being attracted to short guys (he points out: okay, that's defensive, yes I like trans men): I'm attracted to certain things as well. I'm pansexual so generally these things have nothing to do with gender or sex, but I for example prefer the lean muscley types to the big muscles. No this isn't the most important thing, but the short guys... I mean if he likes that and is attracted to it he's likely to end up with those. Most of us are quite short, it's not like he's saying he likes transmen because they're short he's saying that might explain why 3/4 of his last relationships were with a trans guy. And most of us look prepubescent pre-T so I mean,... It's not wrong to start a relationship based on pysical attraction is it? If he happens not to notice most pre-T men that way (trans or not really) is that such a big deal?

I didn't really find it offensive.  As someone else pointed out, it is only supposed to be this guys experience. 
Then again, I don't feel like I'm offended often or easily.

I am just pointing out the extreme obvious--it is a comic, that doesn't mean the author discusses his partners junk with others IRL. I thought it was more the authors way of showing his frustration on the questions people actually do ask him.

I saw this at Tumblr for the first time, and then on a Finnish ftm message board and they pointed out similar offensive traits from the comic, too.
Frankly, I'm not offended but I do see why it could be offensinve to someone else.

It would be easier for me to explain my views on this by actually talking so I'm not gonna write a huge paragraph of text here because it wouldn't probably make much sense in the long run (plus I sometimes have huge issues to express myself in English).
BUT CONSIDERING the comic is made from the perspective of a gay cisman, it's not surprising it has some things that trans* people might find offensive. He's not as sensitive or prone to see what can be offensive to trans* people compared to the said minority.
And I personally think that comic clarifies some things to cispeople, gay or straight. Kinda like the fact that not every man has a penis. Of course, not all trans* guys refer to as their netherregions as a vagina, considering it's usually a part of a woman's anatomy. But considering how some people can't even see the difference between sex and gender, trying to explain why a vagina isn't... well, a vagina to someone would just mindf**k them more. Simple people need simple explanations, so to speak.

Plus, one can't really consider every possible aspect that might be offensive to some in a relatively short comic like this. He could have put asterisks after every possible sentence and provide explanations and examples at the end or on the sides but I bet the sheer amount of examplary exceptions would eventually "overpower" the comic itself.

I don't know if this turned out confusing or whatnot else. I just think the comic's purpose is not to offend anyone, and yet it does. But hey, so does basically everything else in the world.

For the sake of pretend, if this guy had been my boyfriend, and had argued in the manner he did in the comic, that would be perfectly fine by me. For all we know, his past boyfriends have been of the same mindset. And he's not stating all trans guys have vaginas either. Some guys have vaginas, some have [insert alternative term] and some have dicks. And some of the guys he dated and are referring to in the comic had a vagina.

Quote from: LearnedHand on October 02, 2013, 12:23:46 PM
I am just pointing out the extreme obvious--it is a comic, that doesn't mean the author discusses his partners junk with others IRL. I thought it was more the authors way of showing his frustration on the questions people actually do ask him.

theres always to be people who is gonna be offended by transgender comics of any art. people have diffrent taste, and feel diffrent about the whole transthing.

Two Points

1. Anyone that thinks of you boys as girls is both blind and stupid xD
2. The author, seemed to be saying that he finds is offensive that anyone would see dating T as different from Cig.

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Quote from: Natkat on October 02, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
theres always to be people who is gonna be offended by transgender comics of any art. people have diffrent taste, and feel diffrent about the whole transthing.

People have killed over comics. Don't think that will happen here. So a good discussion never hurts things (or usually doesn't). I think there are some people who would be highly turned off wiht a gay guy talking to them in this manner and others would not be. You know, we're all different. And apparently he finds some boy friends.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 03, 2013, 01:16:20 PM

People have killed over comics. Don't think that will happen here. So a good discussion never hurts things (or usually doesn't). I think there are some people who would be highly turned off wiht a gay guy talking to them in this manner and others would not be. You know, we're all different. And apparently he finds some boy friends.
--Jay

oh yes.. I make comics myself some of the first thing my mom pointed out where that I should be carefull.  :P

Quote from: NathanielM on October 02, 2013, 09:50:12 AM
And most of us look prepubescent pre-T so I mean,... It's not wrong to start a relationship based on pysical attraction is it? If he happens not to notice most pre-T men that way (trans or not really) is that such a big deal?

This is why I'm not offended by the whole "libido not responding til after T" thing- I can completely understand why a man in at least his thirties wouldn't be immediately attracted to someone who seemed to be much, much younger than him. Not that EVERY transguy has this problem pre-T, but it does seem pretty darn common.

Well, the younger thing is part of it, but as someone said (I think it was Taka - can't see that far back), hormones do play a role in our sexual responses. And some people really are monosexual, you can't help what physical/sexual cues you respond to. Even down to little things like skin texture. I know I personally couldn't be with a trans woman who hadn't begun her transition yet, not because I didn't regard her as a woman, but physically, it just wouldn't work for me. I like the way a woman smells, feels, and so on. If this guy is gay, it's going to be kind of hard for him when someone has little to no male characteristics - but when hormones do their work and change the overall physical form, yeah, the "bits" aren't going to be that important because the larger package (lol) is male.

Quote from: caleb. on October 04, 2013, 07:05:31 PM
Well, the younger thing is part of it, but as someone said (I think it was Taka - can't see that far back), hormones do play a role in our sexual responses. And some people really are monosexual, you can't help what physical/sexual cues you respond to. Even down to little things like skin texture. I know I personally couldn't be with a trans woman who hadn't begun her transition yet, not because I didn't regard her as a woman, but physically, it just wouldn't work for me. I like the way a woman smells, feels, and so on. If this guy is gay, it's going to be kind of hard for him when someone has little to no male characteristics - but when hormones do their work and change the overall physical form, yeah, the "bits" aren't going to be that important because the larger package (lol) is male.

And to add to this, some people like certain "bits". End of story. Some gay guys want a "normal", bio cis male penis. End of story. As a trans guy myself, I do not fault them for this. To me, you like what you like and I know my body isn't everyones cup of tea. I see no issue with this. However, there is a right way to turn someone down and a wrong way. The issue for me isn't being turned down, but how it is done.

After reading it again, the whole comic seemed less about trans men and more about a guy just trying to justify his sexuality while accidentally being insensitive towards trans people. That's probably the part about it that still irks me the most too. He's trying to justify himself at the expense of the trans men he's been with and trans men in general.

People, like this guy, who are constantly shoving their sexuality in others' faces are obnoxious, as obnoxious as peope who shove things like their religion (or lack thereof), their taste in music, etc. in others' faces. Just be who you are and like what you like. Don't apologize for it and don't try to justify it. If you want to have pride and flaunt a little, that's perfectly fine but don't do so at someone else's expense and know where to draw the line. No one really cares if someone is a "gold star gay". No one really cares if someone prefers transmen to cis men. The only people who "care" about your personal preferences are you and the few trolls out there who just pretend to care so that they can bother you.

No one has the authority to tell the guy that he isn't a "gold star gay" because he's had sex with transmen. It's just a petty label which makes the entire comic ironic because he's complaining about being labelled.

What it really comes down to is: do we really need a comic about something as petty as a guy whining about being mislabelled when he can just tell the people who are harassing him to sod off because who he prefers to have sex with is none of their business? I guess not because he apparently wants some sort of special recognition or award to honor him for who he bangs which is even more petty than making a comic complaining about not getting the recognition.

So yeah, even if the comic weren't about transmen, it would still be pretty pathetic.

@Contravene, well I can see the meme in the gay community of "not gay enough" just like there is the meme "not trans enough" in our community. So someone who has dated a couple trans guys might get the meme that he wouldn't be gay enough. I don't see anything wrong with "justifying oneself".


Some people were not offended and some were. Not everybody here is offended.



--Jay

Well we are all entitled to our opinion. I do not like this at all and I am entitled to that. If you disagree thats your opinion not mine but you have every right to feel that way too. The main annoyance was how focussed he was on himself trying to justify his actions basically at the expense of his partners feelings. They may not have minded but someone with more consideration wouldnt do that in the first place, or at least ask them first. People just really need to think more before opening their mouths about how what they say can affect other people. It only comes down to respect. Most cis people dont get it but some actually do. My girlfriend would never have acted that way. We have talked about that as I typically currently dont pass I wouldnt want the world to see us and her as something we're/she's not but she said she doesnt even mind cause she knows what I am. I didnt want her to be labelled as something shes not while Im in the bad phase right now but she would never act like this trying to justify herself. We'd both probably tell them to f**k off and thats as much of an explanation as they'd get. They dont deserve or need to know anything more, why does it matter to them anyway? All that matters are those involved


Also yes it is just a comic but that doesnt make it ok either. The fact it was done in the first place obviously theres intent behind it. Its the same thing as describing their feelings except they've drawn it. Doesnt change that fact. Comics are done for a reason and anything drawn there is there for a reason. I did alot of this in history at school we would just be given a comic drawing and had to analyse everything as to what it meant. If anything was drawn there it was there for a reason. Ok propaganda type stuff like that is a bit different but I still take it in the same way as why would it have been done if that wasnt how the author would go about dealing with such situations. It just demonstrates a viewpoint to me thats being put forward in this manner. Doesnt mean he wouldnt speak like that to people in person. If he tries this hard to justify his sexuality to others it would only seem more likely that he would. Would just be nice if people were more considerate of others is all. I know we are still way behind gays in terms of how people view us but that doesnt make us less than them and ok to treat us however they like to justify themselves to an ignorant prat. Actually telling them his anatomy was not going to change their ignorance in the slightest, if anything potentially hinder it by describing a man as still being female, so in such situations sometimes its best to not say anything. No one elses business at the end of the day

I just find it interesting how about 50% or so of the people here are offended by this comic, while so far no one has expressed any feelings of being offended in the Grand Theft Auto thread over in Arts & Entertainment News, there's even been defenses for GTA in that thread. I just can't really understand what makes this more offensive to those who have replied than the more bluntly sterotypical portralys in the video game. Is it because the potentially offensive material is coming from someone who is supposed to be a friend?

Quote from: LearnedHand on October 05, 2013, 01:26:05 PM
I just find it interesting how about 50% or so of the people here are offended by this comic, while so far no one has expressed any feelings of being offended in the Grand Theft Auto thread over in Arts & Entertainment News, there's even been defenses for GTA in that thread. I just can't really understand what makes this more offensive to those who have replied than the more bluntly sterotypical portralys in the video game. Is it because the potentially offensive material is coming from someone who is supposed to be a friend?

Because I don't go to the Arts & Entertainment News section, and I'd wager a lot of people don't.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 05, 2013, 02:37:56 PM
Because I don't go to the Arts & Entertainment News section, and I'd wager a lot of people don't.

Of which I am aware, so does that mean the ones who did reply in A&E are less sensitive or is there an actual difference between the two subjects?

Either way, it was just an observation I found interesting. The convo here is "it doesn't matter if it's just a comic" while over there it is basically "get over it, it's just a video game".

Yes hormones is a normal instinct created by nature.its also part of mating habits in the wild.Smell,build *strong*,many things that attract us to what our brain tells us to.I agree to a few points on everyones opinion and i personally had no issues with them because i do not date and i do not do these things myself but WHEN i do date,i plan to be with only someone who has 100% understanding in all areas

Firstly I didnt know there was a GTA thread I've never even looked in that section, secondly I cant stand that game and wouldnt touch it with a million mile long barge pole. My gf told me something about it though in terms of something to do with MTFs in it and yes I am offended and disgusted by it. Obviously I am not an MTF but I am offended for them because it sickens me that its all made a joke of and people think its ok to do it. Only one reason why I hate that series and the company behind it. They dont deserve the money they make from the way they portray people in it. Game or not it can influence how people see things themselves. Im just so tired of it. I dont think its even about being 'sensitive' its about wanting a little respect and its not much to ask for. Anyway thats going off topic here.. Basically I dont think the media matters, its the message that it gives to people who see it

*sigh*

i hope you do realize that this is a very simplified explanation of things to people who seriously don't get it. sorry that i laugh of the humor in something that apparently 50% of trans guys find offending.

but honestly, isn't it better to have a comic where a gay guy sees trans men as men, than if it were about a not so gay guy who found himself able to date trans men because he's just a little bi? trans men actually get some recognition as their real gender in this one.

and the equipment on the shelf is probably meant for the size queens.


i'd understand it better if you got offended from a slightly longer and more in-depth explanation of things that still couldn't do better than this.

Quote from: Taka on October 07, 2013, 04:26:30 AM
*sigh*

i hope you do realize that this is a very simplified explanation of things to people who seriously don't get it. sorry that i laugh of the humor in something that apparently 50% of trans guys find offending.

but honestly, isn't it better to have a comic where a gay guy sees trans men as men, than if it were about a not so gay guy who found himself able to date trans men because he's just a little bi? trans men actually get some recognition as their real gender in this one.

and the equipment on the shelf is probably meant for the size queens.

i'd understand it better if you got offended from a slightly longer and more in-depth explanation of things that still couldn't do better than this.

Well for ME,i took the *equipment on the shelf* as to say *said didnt have bottom surgery yet* if you read the rest of the comic,he also says that in other words *some men have female parts* and its not the parts hes attracted to

I can't really say I am offended by the comic, but I don't like it, that's for sure.

In regards to the pre T thing, he mentions being interested in trans men after they have only been on T a few months. At that point there is very rarely that much physical appearance differences, and in fact that pre-T character looks the same in both panels both pre and post T, which is fairly accurate. The main things they would have at that point would be possibly some down stairs growth, if they are incredibly lucky the voice might be starting to crack, they may have acne. But no significant changes such as noticeably facial hair usually after only a few months on T. The cis gay male character is also shown as just completely ignoring the pre T guy entirely even as a friend prospect, then all of a sudden is really interested after just a few months on T.

The comic just seems to be one gay guy being as obsessed about his orientation as he perceives others to be. He seems more concerned about still being considered a "gold star gay", which IMO is just really immature and petty labeling, than about the trans men themselves being treated as men.

Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on October 15, 2013, 11:28:38 PM
I can't really say I am offended by the comic, but I don't like it, that's for sure.

In regards to the pre T thing, he mentions being interested in trans men after they have only been on T a few months. At that point there is very rarely that much physical appearance differences, and in fact that pre-T character looks the same in both panels both pre and post T, which is fairly accurate. The main things they would have at that point would be possibly some down stairs growth, if they are incredibly lucky the voice might be starting to crack, they may have acne. But no significant changes such as noticeably facial hair usually after only a few months on T. The cis gay male character is also shown as just completely ignoring the pre T guy entirely even as a friend prospect, then all of a sudden is really interested after just a few months on T.

The comic just seems to be one gay guy being as obsessed about his orientation as he perceives others to be. He seems more concerned about still being considered a "gold star gay", which IMO is just really immature and petty labeling, than about the trans men themselves being treated as men.

I thought of the "gold star gay" as a satiric reference. From what he said in his blog ( which I don't recall), it was quite literal the thing re: noticing a guy post T. He noticed him post T, perhaps more because he just noticed him. It wasn't that the T had actually done that much.


--Jay