Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey there,

So as the title suggests I've been having trouble passing occasionally when I was under the assumption I passed all the time. I basically need advice on how to come off as cis and maybe some insight as to what about me is throwing people off or even slightly feminine. I am in no way saying those who don't want to be super duper alpha-male are wrong or anything of the sort it's just for me personally I want to come off as 100% straight cis guy and not feel like people "know" I'm trans or whatever if that makes any sense.

The instances where I've had trouble sometimes had to do with my uni-sex name (Shanon) but I thought I passed well enough to cancel that out. One girl when I disclosed I was trans told me it was "obvious" and that "she could tell" both comments threw me for a loop and gave me anxiety. She said a lot of it had to do with my voice and that it was "feminine" the next week 2 girls on the train assumed I was gay because I had a "high voice" I always thought my voice was deep and now I feel like I've been under the wrong impression the whole time. The last occurrence was right after the "high voice" thing. I was walking with my girlfriend and some guy was asking people for money and tapped me on the back saying "hey man" I then turned around to see what he wanted and he started apologizing profusely for calling me a guy then I guess the look I gave him made him think because he then asked "well you're not a guy right" to which a pissed off me replied "what the ->-bleeped-<- yes I am" he then apologized and I stormed off and ended up becoming extremely frustrated and going home early and locking myself in my room.

I've included a video of me so you can see whether it's my voice or mannerisms or face or whatever that is feminine. The link is from when I was 8 months on T.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5sv2GoNWX8

I just don't understand every time I get close to feeling okay it's blown away and I lose all confidence. What is wrong with me?

Only thing I notice voice wise is the  hesitations and lot of use of 'like' or 'uh'.

Thank you for your input. I wanted to work on that speech pattern in general lol as I find it makes me sound dumb and is irritating to follow.

I don't know re: about passing. It's an odd thing. I pass maybe 80% (almost 8 months). I am a pretty small guy (5'1") and kind of small frame. But I will pass with one person easily-- I mean no hesitation at all. And then at the same time not pass with someone else, sometimes in the same place and almost the same time. I have come to the conclusion that it says more about them than me perhaps, though that doesn't necessarily make me feel wonderful.

I would read you as male, though sometimes there are other things they are reading. Not sure what the hesitations in voice mean LordKAT. Sometimes people are a bit nervous doing videos or just not organized. I do that sometimes on my videos when making transitions from one topic to the next.

--Jay

Jay,
The hesitations are partly as I described and partly hard to define. I also noticed that there was no eye contact so to speak. He looked everywhere except at the camera or 'audience' which gave the impression of no confidence or practice. I always took that as a more fem habit.

I agree with LordKAT.

Your voice has a male quality to it - the pitch is fine, but I think that the lilting ups-and-downs and "like" and "uh" is reminiscent of a teenager and, combined with the youthful look of your face, is probably working against you.

I also agree about the confidence thing - I honestly would probably read you as "gay", too - but definitely not "female".  I'm not entirely sure what else people may be seeing in your body language that is giving them the impression that you're "female".  I think perhaps a video where you are moving around would be helpful, too - it may be the way that you walk or move, too.  I'd definitely work on the speech patterns, though.

Dude, you look male to me. I don't think your voice is really that high.. It just fluctuates in pitch a lot. But it's not high enough to the point where I'd think you were female! The only thing I can think of is if someone saw your name first and just assumed you were a girl by the name alone. Maybe they had their mind set on seeing a female and then they saw you.

I would try not to be too concerned with that. I'm sure once you let facial hair grow, it'll go away. That's kinda what happened to me, anyway. I used to be paranoid all the time when I started T, but stubble on the chin really helped with the pronoun mix-ups at the beginning.

When people say that you have a high voice... you don't whatsoever. For God's sake, your fundamental frequency is all the way down below 100 Hz, and never even made it higher than 105 Hz. It was so low that Praat couldn't even pick it up because it was below the bottom 75 Hz threshold so often. My voice was NEVER that deep, and I couldn't even speak that deeply if I tried. What you do have, though, is the female inflections, which people misinterpret as a pitch problem because most people don't really understand the mechanics of what makes a voice sound male or female, they just hear more female inflections and immediately equate that with highness.

That is the real problem. You're still speaking with female inflections. You're still doing the voice slurring thing that teenage girls do, where you drag your words out. You're still doing the female "S" sound with the hiss. And you're not speaking with power or bluntness, and taking a lot of pauses, which is a more feminine thing. Guys tend to speak with very choppy words, where there's clear divisions between the words, and the words come out quickly and with authority behind them.

You spoke in the video like this: "Why is it that every tiiiime.... that a biiiill... is paaaassssed.... in regards to like..." Where a guy would just say very clearly "Why is it that every single time that a bill is passed about trans people using..." and the words "every" "single" and "time" would get accented with staccato-type enunciation that would make them seem blunter. Guys accent words by making them shorter and choppier, and putting a bit more force behind the consonants. Girls accent words by using different pitches and stretching the words out.

Mannerism-wise, same thing, you just have to learn to dominate the space that you're in a bit more. You don't look relaxed in the video. Your arms are in, you're leaning forward, and you look a bit nervous. A more masculine behavior would be to look a bit more chill... have your arms out, project an aura of "yep... I got this. I've got something to say, and you're going to listen" rather than "okay, so I'm sitting here talking to the camera, I hope I look all right." Confidence is the #1 thing. Own the space. Look comfortable. Sit relaxed, spread out, don't be so inward and tense.

That's what I can see. It's not appearance whatsoever, it's just a matter of getting the mannerisms down. Which is fine. It comes with time.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 13, 2013, 03:54:27 AM
When people say that you have a high voice... you don't whatsoever. For God's sake, your fundamental frequency is all the way down below 100 Hz, and never even made it higher than 105 Hz. It was so low that Praat couldn't even pick it up because it was below the bottom 75 Hz threshold so often. My voice was NEVER that deep, and I couldn't even speak that deeply if I tried. What you do have, though, is the female inflections, which people misinterpret as a pitch problem because most people don't really understand the mechanics of what makes a voice sound male or female, they just hear more female inflections and immediately equate that with highness.

That is the real problem. You're still speaking with female inflections. You're still doing the voice slurring thing that teenage girls do, where you drag your words out. You're still doing the female "S" sound with the hiss. And you're not speaking with power or bluntness, and taking a lot of pauses, which is a more feminine thing. Guys tend to speak with very choppy words, where there's clear divisions between the words, and the words come out quickly and with authority behind them.

You spoke in the video like this: "Why is it that every tiiiime.... that a biiiill... is paaaassssed.... in regards to like..." Where a guy would just say very clearly "Why is it that every single time that a bill is passed about trans people using..." and the words "every" "single" and "time" would get accented with staccato-type enunciation that would make them seem blunter. Guys accent words by making them shorter and choppier, and putting a bit more force behind the consonants. Girls accent words by using different pitches and stretching the words out.

Mannerism-wise, same thing, you just have to learn to dominate the space that you're in a bit more. You don't look relaxed in the video. Your arms are in, you're leaning forward, and you look a bit nervous. A more masculine behavior would be to look a bit more chill... have your arms out, project an aura of "yep... I got this. I've got something to say, and you're going to listen" rather than "okay, so I'm sitting here talking to the camera, I hope I look all right." Confidence is the #1 thing. Own the space. Look comfortable. Sit relaxed, spread out, don't be so inward and tense.

That's what I can see. It's not appearance whatsoever, it's just a matter of getting the mannerisms down. Which is fine. It comes with time.

Thank you, this was very helpful. I've been aware inflection is a problem more than pitch I just never thought I had a problem with it but clearly I do since I've had so many reaction from people. I do agree confidence is a big issue with me overall so hopefully working on the two helps. If you have any advice as to how to practice inflection by all means tell me. Anyways appreciate the input :)

Quote from: dylan30 on October 13, 2013, 01:30:37 AM
Dude, you look male to me. I don't think your voice is really that high.. It just fluctuates in pitch a lot. But it's not high enough to the point where I'd think you were female! The only thing I can think of is if someone saw your name first and just assumed you were a girl by the name alone. Maybe they had their mind set on seeing a female and then they saw you.

I would try not to be too concerned with that. I'm sure once you let facial hair grow, it'll go away. That's kinda what happened to me, anyway. I used to be paranoid all the time when I started T, but stubble on the chin really helped with the pronoun mix-ups at the beginning.

I agree facial hair would help as for "letting" it grow there is no letting because all I have that isn't invisible and blonde is two black chin hairs which do nothing for me. Sometimes I get so frustrated and think theres something wrong with me I feel like I used to be so appreciative of what t had done for me but now I'm just like well this is crap what's the point.

You pass to me man. No idea why these people are giving you a hard time.

Hey there
I think your voice passes fine.
The girl who said it was obvious probably would have said that even if you had a beard and a beer belly. Some people are just like that.

Some things i noticed that might help

Your eyebrows have a sort of feminine arch to them. I know that might not help if you dont tweeze them. Maybe throw on a pair of glasses.

I know i couldnt grow much facial hair after 10 months on T, but if you can that will help.
also I might opt for a slightly more masculine hairstyle too. A bit shorter

I dont think you look partiulary feminine and I would guess that you live somewhere where they might be alot of masculine women who dress like men?

I'm unsure how people don't see you as passing. I'd personally think you were a male, but because of said "hi-lo" tones and "like, uh" - I would have to say I'd think you were gay. But you pass nonetheless to me!

Yea, I would have to say it was because of the pauses and using 'like'.  Also, something I noticed, you looked away a lot.  That's also a girl thing.  Usually when I talk to guys they stare me right in the face when I talk, not looking around at the surroundings.  Maybe it's just me on that one.  But I would say the mannerisms plays a big part. Don't really have any tips as I suck in that department. That and I sound like a 13 year old girl.

Quote from: chuck on October 13, 2013, 10:15:20 AM
Hey there
I think your voice passes fine.
The girl who said it was obvious probably would have said that even if you had a beard and a beer belly. Some people are just like that.

Some things i noticed that might help

Your eyebrows have a sort of feminine arch to them. I know that might not help if you dont tweeze them. Maybe throw on a pair of glasses.

I know i couldnt grow much facial hair after 10 months on T, but if you can that will help.
also I might opt for a slightly more masculine hairstyle too. A bit shorter

I dont think you look partiulary feminine and I would guess that you live somewhere where they might be alot of masculine women who dress like men?

Thanks, I go to an arts school which is full of queer people and when I'm not in school I live in downtown Toronto and near an area that is the city's "gay village" I've been wanting a shaggy haircut but it seems to me the only way I'll be able to confidently pull that off is if I had facial hair so I guess right now it's a no go. I spent most of my teenage years abusing drugs and smoking pot and drinking and I feel like that somehow affected my speech pattern that now even though I'm sober I sound perm-fried which can come off as sounding feminine due to the pauses.

I also have a hard time staying in one range. My voice dropped very rapidly compared to some people I've seen and I have had a bit of a hard time adjusting to keeping my pitch consistent.

Anyways thanks for the advice I have been looking into getting square reading glasses as they do make me look more masculine.

I agree re: mannerisms and so on reading as more femme (including hestitations and so). Some of us pass as gay when we do pass. I think given that we were socialized as female it makes quite a lot of sense. If you care about getting around that you got to put a lot of effort into it.

Yesterday I kept getting read as female and I think that I was tired. So that it means either a. I like more femme when tired or b. It takes more energy to come across as male? I got sick of it, and sat down in the most male way possible and the woman sirred me.

Anyway, if that all is important  you gotta take the time. But do keep in mind that if someone knows about before, they might take a certain delight in saying such things. "haha I'd always know you were a girl". I am not getting this from my friends and acquaintances so I am guessing it is a bit of an immature "put you in your place" behavior.

--Jay

It's probally mannerisms, Because I'm not on T but my voice is somewhat high but when I'm out in public most people  say he with no hesitation, Mannersims play a role in alot, And it has always been in me, Sit like a male walk lile a male talk like a male eat like a male even putting clothes on like a male, For an example women put one arm in then they do the other men on the other hand pull the shirt over their head and put both arms in at the same time, It's always been their because were male, And one thing I don't like is that you can go on the internet and look at how to get thoes mannerisms if your male it's already embedded in you no need to learn, Even hough my family hates the decision I'm making while trying to force me not to, Id care how many someone told me to sit like a lady, That's not how my brain is programmed

I was expecting to play the video and then say "well, 10 months isn't that long, it's not going to be 100%..." but dude, your voice is so deep! I mean holy crap. You do come off as a bit hesitant, maybe even gay (only slightly), but female...never. Honestly, I think chuck is right on, in saying that some people will say "it's obvious" regardless of what you actually look or sound like.

You don't really look extremely feminine in the face either. Just young. I'm guessing the guy apologized when he heard your voice.

Quote from: caleb. on October 13, 2013, 05:56:05 PM
I was expecting to play the video and then say "well, 10 months isn't that long, it's not going to be 100%..." but dude, your voice is so deep! I mean holy crap. You do come off as a bit hesitant, maybe even gay (only slightly), but female...never. Honestly, I think chuck is right on, in saying that some people will say "it's obvious" regardless of what you actually look or sound like.

You don't really look extremely feminine in the face either. Just young. I'm guessing the guy apologized when he heard your voice.

Thanks. The video that is up is from around 8 months or 7 and a half (not sure) my voice has dropped a little since but not hugely. I have found that my voice doesn't necessarily match my face as I have rather feminine (imo) features. I kind of stopped trying to pass after going on t because I figured if I had been passing ok pre-t I'd be fine on T but I guess I got to comfortable with clothing choices and talking too fast and what-not.

I appreciate all the advice everyone has given.

I won't comment on the voice as everything Carrie said was spot on and more well-said than I could manage. I would say that there are also a lot of small, jerky head and eye movements that kinda read as femme/gay, especially the tilting your chin back and forth. Looks-wise though, I think you pass fantastically. Personally I find that when I spend a lot of time talking with guy friends that have speech patterns similar to those I want to cultivate, I will just naturally pick them up myself without even consciously meaning to.

I also wouldn't call Shanon a unisex name, at least not in USA/Canada. It may occasionally be used for boys but it's much more frequently used for girls. I'm not saying you should change your name or anything, if you like it go with it, I just think that it may be hindering your first impressions more than you realize.

I think it's also worth mentioning that cis men don't always "pass" either.

I'm just saying.  Just being a physiologically male doesn't mean you'll always be perceived as male.

I think it is uncomfortable and painful for men as well, and probably many ask the same questions.

Quote from: Brandon on October 13, 2013, 03:23:55 PM
It's probally mannerisms, Because I'm not on T but my voice is somewhat high but when I'm out in public most people  say he with no hesitation, Mannersims play a role in alot, And it has always been in me, Sit like a male walk lile a male talk like a male eat like a male even putting clothes on like a male, For an example women put one arm in then they do the other men on the other hand pull the shirt over their head and put both arms in at the same time, It's always been their because were male, And one thing I don't like is that you can go on the internet and look at how to get thoes mannerisms if your male it's already embedded in you no need to learn, Even hough my family hates the decision I'm making while trying to force me not to, Id care how many someone told me to sit like a lady, That's not how my brain is programmed

Where did you ever read or hear of such a thing?

Quote from: Lexicon on October 14, 2013, 10:53:46 AM
I think it's also worth mentioning that cis men don't always "pass" either.

I'm just saying.  Just being a physiologically male doesn't mean you'll always be perceived as male.

I think it is uncomfortable and painful for men as well, and probably many ask the same questions.

There's a lot of truth in this. When I was early-late 20's, I'd get misgendered female a lot when still a straight up guy (but then I was underweight and had long hair.) Funny, because that was 'grunge' era so it was not uncommon for guys in our peer group to look the same way (if that doesn't date me too much lol.)

I agree with a lot of the replies here; I think it largely boils down to mannerisms. Work on squaring up your shoulders, note how other guys behave, especially among other guys. It's (obviously) a lot different than when a guy and a girl hang out. That's not a licence to overcompensate though; don't worry about being the most manly man in the room ;)

Quote from: chuck on October 14, 2013, 04:55:41 PM
Where did you ever read or hear of such a thing?

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 02:46:27 PM

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

What?

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 02:46:27 PM

By observing men and women, This why a woman cant teach her son to be a man, If you put one arm in then the other that's feminen, Men arents suppose to put their shirts on like a woman, My great grandpa told my grandma that

This sounds like sexism bred through generations, honestly.
I can't imagine how offensive this would be a single mother raising a son.

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on October 15, 2013, 03:28:11 PM
This sounds like sexism bred through generations, honestly.
I can't imagine how offensive this would be a single mother raising a son.

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

Quote from: G on October 15, 2013, 02:49:13 PM
What?

Ok when a man puts on a shirt he puts both arms through his shirt and pulls it over his body, When a woman does it she puts one arm at a time I observe everything weather at school the gym outside or my house

At the risk of stepping far over my boundaries...

Your version of masculinity is innate.  There are ways that you can manipulate gestures, mannerisms, speech patterns, etc to emulate an idea of "male" but those things aren't inherent to all cis males. 

If you are confident and poised in your brand of masculinity, there is no question as to whether or not that is "male" because it is you, how could it not be?

cis men are as variant in expression, mannerisms, gestures, speech patterns, sensitivity, etc. as any other human being.  They may question if they are as much a "man" as the lumberjack they are standing next to but the quality of their maleness is not in question based on how they put their shirt on.

My point is this: humans gravitate toward confidence and authenticity.  We like other people that are centered, approachable, true, and kind.  If you put on your shirt by standing in the neck hole and pulling it up over your waist people aren't thinking if that's a guy thing to do or not, they think you are being weird, which you kind of are, but it's all good.  You are who you are.  People will connect with that more than they will with you being overly attentive to your every gesture -- if people don't know why you are being so calculated they tend to read it incorrectly as your hiding something or somehow not being who you really are. 

If you move from the core belief that you are a man (or however you identify) you feel confident and at peace with it, then everything you do is reasonably what men do... because you are one and your doing it... it's a little bit of circular logic but still relevant, IMO.

I'm just sayin'. 

Quote from: Lexicon on October 15, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
At the risk of stepping far over my boundaries...

Your version of masculinity is innate.  There are ways that you can manipulate gestures, mannerisms, speech patterns, etc to emulate an idea of "male" but those things aren't inherent to all cis males. 

If you are confident and poised in your brand of masculinity, there is no question as to whether or not that is "male" because it is you, how could it not be?

cis men are as variant in expression, mannerisms, gestures, speech patterns, sensitivity, etc. as any other human being.  They may question if they are as much a "man" as the lumberjack they are standing next to but the quality of their maleness is not in question based on how they put their shirt on.

My point is this: humans gravitate toward confidence and authenticity.  We like other people that are centered, approachable, true, and kind.  If you put on your shirt by standing in the neck hole and pulling it up over your waist people aren't thinking if that's a guy thing to do or not, they think you are being weird, which you kind of are, but it's all good.  You are who you are.  People will connect with that more than they will with you being overly attentive to your every gesture -- if people don't know why you are being so calculated they tend to read it incorrectly as your hiding something or somehow not being who you really are. 

If you move from the core belief that you are a man (or however you identify) you feel confident and at peace with it, then everything you do is reasonably what men do... because you are one and your doing it... it's a little bit of circular logic but still relevant, IMO.

I'm just sayin'.

Yea.... Nowadays people don't know how to raise children, Your suppose train a child up in the way it should go, I can't teach a female to be a woman I can only play a part in some things that's not one of them, No will not have my daughter watch me get dressed when their is a difference between how men an women get dressed, Kids are very smart, Monkey see monkey do

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:01:11 PM

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

What about people who have a father who transitions to female later in life?

On the inside, couldn't it be argued that this person was somehow always a woman?

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:33:02 PM




Yea.... Nowadays people don't know how to raise children, Your suppose train a child up in the way it should go, I can't teach a female to be a woman I can only play a part in some things that's not one of them, No will not have my daughter watch me get dressed when their is a difference between how men an women get dressed, Kids are very smart, Monkey see monkey do

Am I correct in assuming you don't have kids?

I have three, it's not quite as obvious or cut and dry as you think it might be. 

And for the record, your kids will teach you as much as you teach them.  It'll be humility, not righteousness, that'll raise your kids to be good humans.

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:03:21 PM

Ok when a man puts on a shirt he puts both arms through his shirt and pulls it over his body, When a woman does it she puts one arm at a time I observe everything weather at school the gym outside or my house

I'm a man and I put my head through first, then arms. Well usually, I honestly don't pay that much attention. Does this make me less of a man? No.

Lexicon said what I was thinking so I will just leave my comment at that.

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on October 15, 2013, 04:38:10 PM
What about people who have a father who transitions to female later in life?

On the inside, couldn't it be argued that this person was somehow always a woman?

That person is female and has the brain of a female so their for can raise a female, Or in my case I can raise a boy and teach him how to be a man because I am one

Quote from: Lexicon on October 15, 2013, 04:41:43 PM
Am I correct in assuming you don't have kids?

I have three, it's not quite as obvious or cut and dry as you think it might be. 

And for the record, your kids will teach you as much as you teach them.  It'll be humility, not righteousness, that'll raise your kids to be good humans.



Yea well I may not have them but it's still true, I'm gonna teach my daughter how to be a man as Ive already stated men and women do things differently, Its like this men sit with their legs open If my daughter sees it shes gonna do it, unless she comes out as trans, Other than that I want her to be daddies little girl

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2013, 04:01:11 PM

Well I don't surgar coat stuff that's the truth I believe you need a mother and a father, How is a woman gonna teach a man to be a man it's not possible it's not sexist, But I can see how you would see it that way but if you really think about it, it makes since

I would really want to know how my mom managed to raise me by herself then. I never had a father figure when I was growing up, and frankly I never felt like I needed one.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 15, 2013, 04:56:31 PM
I would really want to know how my mom managed to raise me by herself then. I never had a father figure when I was growing up, and frankly I never felt like I needed one.

I'm talking about biological males, My mom will never see me as her son so she thinks I'm her daughter, Unless she sees you as her son early in life

Brandon, I have them and it's not true.

It is surprising to me that you don't have kids and you'd tell me what is true all while I have them and I'm telling you it's not true.

This leads me to one glaringly obvious conclusion:  This argument is going nowhere, fast.

I guess I wouldn't care as much but now that I know you plan on raising kids there is this rising sense of frustration and sadness, you're kids are who they are.  You don't have to teach them to be anyone or how to be that one that you think they are.  You just have to give them solid moral and value foundations and they will be solid people with their own expressions.  I guess the part that is confusing to me is that if you were raised with the opportunity to just be focused on being a good person and know that you could be whoever you are... wouldn't there be so much freedom?

I am sure you know all there is to know, but your unborn kids deserve the freedom to find out who they are on their own terms.  As someone who is going to have to (hopefully) co-habitate the earth with your offspring, I'd prefer they be good people rather than them being properly your little girl or boy.  More-over, I'd prefer that they be good to themselves because they believe they can be true to themselves.  So many of us wouldn't be experiencing the pain we are had that been an option from the jump.

Ok, I'm all done now. 

It doesn't matter how someone else sees you. It's how you sees you, to put it somewhat ungrammatically.
I don't care what way I put a shirt on. It doesn't make you a man, what's in your brain makes you a man.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 15, 2013, 05:22:53 PM
It doesn't matter how someone else sees you. It's how you sees you, to put it somewhat ungrammatically.
I don't care what way I put a shirt on. It doesn't make you a man, what's in your brain makes you a man.

--Jay

I just said that it could be Feminine not less of a man

Quote from: Lexicon on October 15, 2013, 05:22:17 PM
Brandon, I have them and it's not true.

It is surprising to me that you don't have kids and you'd tell me what is true all while I have them and I'm telling you it's not true.

This leads me to one glaringly obvious conclusion:  This argument is going nowhere, fast.

I guess I wouldn't care as much but now that I know you plan on raising kids there is this rising sense of frustration and sadness, you're kids are who they are.  You don't have to teach them to be anyone or how to be that one that you think they are.  You just have to give them solid moral and value foundations and they will be solid people with their own expressions.  I guess the part that is confusing to me is that if you were raised with the opportunity to just be focused on being a good person and know that you could be whoever you are... wouldn't there be so much freedom?

I am sure you know all there is to know, but your unborn kids deserve the freedom to find out who they are on their own terms.  As someone who is going to have to (hopefully) co-habitate the earth with your offspring, I'd prefer they be good people rather than them being properly your little girl or boy.  More-over, I'd prefer that they be good to themselves because they believe they can be true to themselves.  So many of us wouldn't be experiencing the pain we are had that been an option from the jump.

Ok, I'm all done now.

I'm not arguing with you, Just because you have kids doesn't mean anything and it's what you do for that child that means something, Your jumping to conclusions, All I was tryin to say was that mannerisms play a big role, And again that kids do watch what you do, Don't think that because I'm you that I don't know anything about children or How your suppose to raise them, It's all in what you expose your child to again Monkey see Monkey do

Besides that I just think you should do a self examination of what could trigger the non passing and go from their and work on what you could change

Well that blew up rather fast

I kind of doubt that people are not passing sometimes. Of course, I was misgendered right in front of this friend of mine who thinks I would pass all the time (I don't). But sometimes "friends" who knew you prior, can be particularly harsh. Mine aren't but that's likely to be my age. I am guessing that there is some percentage which people "pass" at and not passing is strange as I can pass in the same place in the same day (happened yesterday in fact). Who knows why? We are fairly sensitive to it, but I imagine it happens to cis guys, esp those with a more femme presentation or a higher voice.

It's probably a good reminder, but be yourself, I think people will eventually come around. 10 months isn't the history of the world so that one would expect this, I'd think.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 17, 2013, 12:54:02 PM
I kind of doubt that people are not passing sometimes. Of course, I was misgendered right in front of this friend of mine who thinks I would pass all the time (I don't). But sometimes "friends" who knew you prior, can be particularly harsh. Mine aren't but that's likely to be my age. I am guessing that there is some percentage which people "pass" at and not passing is strange as I can pass in the same place in the same day (happened yesterday in fact). Who knows why? We are fairly sensitive to it, but I imagine it happens to cis guys, esp those with a more femme presentation or a higher voice.

It's probably a good reminder, but be yourself, I think people will eventually come around. 10 months isn't the history of the world so that one would expect this, I'd think.

--Jay

Thanks Jay, appreciate all the input

Quote from: SI3 on October 13, 2013, 05:33:38 AM
I agree facial hair would help as for "letting" it grow there is no letting because all I have that isn't invisible and blonde is two black chin hairs which do nothing for me. Sometimes I get so frustrated and think theres something wrong with me I feel like I used to be so appreciative of what t had done for me but now I'm just like well this is crap what's the point.

The hair will come in eventually. I was the same way.. only a hair or two for a while but then one day it just started coming in more. I still can't grow a full beard and I've been on T for 9 years now! However, it takes my brothers a LONG time before they can grow a full beard, so it's gotta run in the family. In any event, I honestly have no clue why these people are saying what they are. I just don't see it. You pass, and I'm not just saying that to be nice... you look and sound male. Best of luck to you!