Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In the past few days, I have twice been refered to as having  some masculine traits. Both of these have been in the context of sport, the first being at a softball training session and the second being in the gym, from my personal trainer.

On both ocassions they have been in relation to something I was doing, "You hit like a guy sometimes" was one comment, the other from my personal trainer, during a boxing session, that "I didn't hit like a girl." When I asked what they meant by these comments, It was because I was a "big Girl", so I guess the reference is more to do with my size then my past life (the fact that the word girl is being used would tend to bear that fact out).

Questioning further, it became clear that it was the fact that I am relatively tall (5ft 10) and have good upper and lower body strength and broad shoulders (the one big hate of my life). It cannot  be facial as my trainer always tells me I am pretty and I have lived stealth for the last 3 years without anyone, commenting on my appearance, my voice is fine and I have all the mannerisms down to a fine art.


The fact that I am a MTF TS, with a bone structure of such and remenants of muscle and strength driven by testosterone, explains why people may see masculine traits (Physically) in me.

So, I have got to thinking and pose a question for the people here: What makes a Woman masculine?

In genetic females, what indicators are considered to be traits of masculinity (and I guess Female body builders may be a good example), so what is a "Big Girl"?

I would be particualry interested in FTM's comments who obviously strive to get as masculine as possible, but start with the female bone structure.


Buffy

Hey Buffy,
I sympathize with you and other 'big girls'. My entire life I have been referred to as a big girl or large woman. While only 5'5, I have a larger frame for a woman, a masculine type fat distribution, and even when I am overweight (like right now), am 'solid'. Delicate jewelry and accessories are lost on me.
I have a hard time finding women's watches that fit around my wrist and are not overly tight.
I remember the frustration in trying to fit into cute girl clothes as a teen. I gave up and started wearing men's clothes while I was still in denial and convinced I was a girl.
I remember being 16 years old, and my physician telling me I must do something about my weight. I worked out everyday and was in weight training class. There was scarcely an ounce of fat on my body.
I told him he must be joking. "Well, according to the chart for your height..."
I pulled up my shirt (always wore big men's shirts), and exclaimed, "Do I look fat to you?"
Curiously, I was well within the weight range for my height on the 'male' side of the chart.
It was a weird feeling being so big in comparison to female classmates. It seemed that the guys I was interested in always wanted the small delicate girls. I could never wear skirts, I have large muscular calves whether I work out or not.
Anyway, just wanted to say that there are many genetic females out there who are bigger and many feel self-conscious about it.

Nero  

when it comes down to it, here is the real question, I think, and one that constantly bothers me.

Why is it that the automatic opposite of feminine is masculine?

Buffy plays sports in a manner that is "unfeminine," so to speak.  She doesn't "hit like a girl." 

Why does that automatically mean that she "hits like a guy?"  This does not make sense.

For me, "masculine" women, is more about how she walks, talks, etc, than body type.

Also, what is feminine, say the Jaw. Emily Deschanel from the TV serie "Bones" has one of the most massive jaw I've seen on a women (most men have smaller ones), yet I think she's very sexy. Her chin height is small though.

I know quite a few people who says she looks like a man!!

Quote from: Keira on June 28, 2007, 03:13:27 AM
Also, what is feminine, say the Jaw. Emily Deschanel from the TV serie "Bones" has one of the most massive jaw I've seen on a women (most men have smaller ones), yet I think she's very sexy. Her chin height is small though.

I know quite a few people who says she looks like a man!!

That is so true. Many have called me beautiful and a large woman in the same breath. Larger bone structures and 'masculine features' can be very beautiful on a woman.

Hi Buffy, you ask a very good question. As you know I have not started to transition but I do know a few GGs that have quite masciling features and most of it does as you say comes from a large extent of muscle. Most people see women as the week gender that needs help lifting heavy boxes and taking the lid of a jar.  What I am saying is muscle or lots of it is looked at as a very mascalin thing. On the same likes activites that are done therefore by girls with out muscle some times look like they make a febal attemt to join in when physicly they cant do things. A lot of girls/woman also have very very bad cordination in trowing/hitting/kicking, once again this is due to the amound of muscle around the joints which help in these actions.

This is of course my oppinion on mascalinity in GGs and how girls look and act as woman and probobly has no resemablance to this forum whatso ever. LOL.

enjoy LUCY XXX

I can't say i've ever had this problem, I've alway hit/throw/run like a girl.

I wouldn't read into it, tbh i'd just take it as a compliment.

Whatever makes you feel comfortable with who you are.


People tell me, I'm girly, very girly, genetic girl girly. And I love every second of it. My ex, even made the joke, if we got together as lesbians she would be the butch and she's only 5'4" 100lbs and absolutely beautiful.

I have a gg friend who has bigger arms than I do but she would never be called masculine.  I'm 155 lb at 5'7" but thats due to my big calves and thighs.  Of course I've not started transition so to everyone else I look perfectly normal.  Hopefully anti-androgens can help reduce the amount of muscle mass I have on me.

For what it is worth, some of the most beautiful women and models have traits that some may consider  masculine.  Some of them could easily pass as young men, their faces are so cut in an androgynous fashion. They have wider shoulders and are tall. 

However.... with that said, most of us have additional traits that scream boy.  It's not just narrow hips.... some girls have narrow hips... but the shape and distribution is distinctly male or female.  In fact, archaeologists use hips to determine the gender of ancient bones.

Usually, we will always have a waistline that will never be feminine.  As we get older, this becomes less of an issue.

Our shoulders and shorter necks are also significantly different than GG's.

Now all of this is generally stated.  Many of our younger sisters who start all of this early in life do much better.  They just don't get all the testosterone to build those healthy manly bones.

But you know what?  We are our own worst critics.  Other people really could care less if we look masculine.  They may give us a staring glance but it won't last long.

Cindi

Besides my height and jaw and shoulder muscle, I'm less masculine than 90% percent of the women out there. Size 8 is perfect for me at the waist and hips, no bagginess or tightness, that means I've got womanly hips and waist. My wrist is 6.125 inch, which for someone my height is a small *female* frame (obviously, I had a small frame for a man... ). I never considered myself to be so slim, for me it was just normal. 

If as a male I was so small, and had no prob passing for a man ;-), there are obviously many women who were more masculine than me.

May I say that this is the most positive and productive thread that I have ever seen posted here. Recognizing and accepting the reality around you, is much better than trying to conform to a fantasy view of the world that only looks at a small portion of the population.

All of the posted points are well-taken. Women are not always small, nor men large. Women are not always feminine, nor men masculine. The world is a wonderfully diverse place if you allow yourself to enjoy it, rather than subject it to judgment.

Kudos to Buffy for a great post.

This may have to do with comparative biomechanics and typical and anticipated 'projected force vectors' between the phenotypical genders.

Quote from: Keira on June 28, 2007, 03:13:27 AM

For me, "masculine" women, is more about how she walks, talks, etc, than body type.

Also, what is feminine, say the Jaw. Emily Deschanel from the TV serie "Bones" has one of the most massive jaw I've seen on a women (most men have smaller ones), yet I think she's very sexy. Her chin height is small though.

I know quite a few people who says she looks like a man!!

I would also like to mention Eileen Davidson of the Young and the Restless and the Bold and the Beautiful.
http://www.arrickhair.com/graphics/photos/eileendavidsonsm.jpg

http://www.cbs.com/daytime/yr/about/bios/edavidson.shtml

Because of her masculine type features, this woman is constantly accused by the media of being a man, yet she is one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen.

Her face is feminine, but her body's angular, wide shoulders, big thorax (obvious because the breasts are well appart even if they're not small, a so called typical TS trait), big hands, still she looks very good.

Quote from: Tink on June 30, 2007, 05:13:19 PM
The fact of the matter is that we come in different shapes, colors, and flavors... :)

tink :icon_chick:

Yes thanks for a very positive post.

We are indeed all so different, and after all that's part of what makes life interesting.  :)

Age, culture, economics, education, background, genetics all have varying amounts of effect on how we look and how society reacts to individual body images.

I find it interesting how the French tennis player Amélie Mauresmo (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:SC1aXS7MvmCB3M:http://antoncastro.blogia.com/upload/20060708191657-mauresmo-002.jpg) who has typical 'masculine' features is totally accepted because she's a sportswoman. 

Overall I have a fairly 'feminine' frame, but I do have shoulders that are slightly wider than the average.  If ever it came up (which incidentally it never does...) I would just reply that I was a keen swimmer as a child (which is in fact very true, I still swim twice a week...) and I know nobody would then think anything of it.  Just take a look at our French swimmer Laure Manadou (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:X6cMQfo-xa1vdM:http://buenasvista.rmcinfo.fr/images/mn/1155647361.jpg)...

MVER XXX

i realize this is a late response
but the thread title caught my eye

i am here as an SO to an FTM
adolescent so my issues in this
realm are personal in regards to him

that being said...
i am, what my son likes to say,
is a total butch female....

i am hefty, i am very very strong
( we live on 5 acres with a half
dozen outbuildings and unending
maintenance which requires physical
strength, which i have developed
out of necessity)

i guarantee you, if i were to throw
a punch, i would not be hitting like a girl...
i throw a wicked hard and fast baseball
and i can run a 16 in chainsaw all day long.....

i get lots of comments on my physique
and am very often misidentified as lesbian

so i am simply verifying the truth already told,
masculine women come in all sorts of packaging!!

Who was it who said the best male beauty always includes a touch of the feminine and the best female beauty always includes a touch of the masculine-- I think they were exactly right. I'm definitely hot for Johnny Depp.

Brunette women with strong Mediterranean features are the most beautiful to me-- like Sara Bareilles. Hmm, coincidentally, those are my traits too... go figure...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcelebrity-pics.movieeye.com%2Fcelebrity_pictures%2FSara_Bareilles_398663.jpg&hash=94837b6fe949f7d2ad2029f0a33398f5f2a519f9)

i seem to be attracted to a lot of trans people because of the mixed traits.  i think that hypatia had it dead on!  i love the "cuteness"of FTMs because they still have that little touch of feminineness (oh god... was that right?) in their traits and in MTFs, i see the angularness (wtf is with my words?) in their faces making them seem strong and full of mystery.  UMA THURMAN IS SUCH A HOTTIE!!!  i have no idea why... its just what i see. >.<

i dont think you have a thing to worry about Buffy, pretty much any GG that i know would take either of those as a compliment. 

What are masculine, androgyne, non-binary, and feminine traits? Could someone make a list, please?

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on July 21, 2008, 05:33:54 AM
What are masculine, androgyne, non-binary, and feminine traits? Could someone make a list, please?

Nichole

My lists are empty. There are simply human traits, as far as I'm concerned they're all without gender. People place assumptions of gender appropriateness onto these traits. I don't believe there are gendered feelings either.

Zythyra

Quote from: Nichole on July 21, 2008, 05:33:54 AM
What are masculine, androgyne, non-binary, and feminine traits? Could someone make a list, please?

Nichole

They are all socially constructed and so differ from one society to another.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 21, 2008, 04:07:30 AM
Brunette women with strong Mediterranean features are the most beautiful to me-- like Sara Bareilles. Hmm, coincidentally, those are my traits too... go figure...

Oh! Sara Bareilles!  I though that was a picture of you when you were younger.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2008, 07:59:47 AM

Quote from: Nichole on July 21, 2008, 05:33:54 AM
What are masculine, androgyne, non-binary, and feminine traits? Could someone make a list, please?

Nichole

They are all socially constructed and so differ from one society to another.

Exactly. Do I believe there is a feminine and masculine? Yes, but it's not those traits that make the grade for defining that. And even with my belief I also think there is overlap to at least a small minority group anyhow. IOW, women tend to be wired for compassion (communion) and instead of "fight/flight" a "gathering and moving together under threat." Women tend toward having a dominant "semiological" bent, metaphors, visual "overall field" viewing, etc. Men have a bent for activity (agency), fight/flight and a focussed sight more adept to "hunting prey" rather than seeing a 'field." Some studies of sexual intercourse that show woman with an "overall feeling" of the event itself and guys extremely "focussed" seem to coorborate that.

Quote from: Lisbeth

Quote from: Hypatia on July 21, 2008, 04:07:30 AM
Brunette women with strong Mediterranean features are the most beautiful to me-- like Sara Bareilles. Hmm, coincidentally, those are my traits too... go figure...

Oh! Sara Bareilles!  I though that was a picture of you when you were younger.

I did as well when I simply saw the pic.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2008, 07:59:47 AMOh! Sara Bareilles!  I though that was a picture of you when you were younger.

LOL-- baby do you ever know how to flirt! Flattery will get you everywhere.  ;D No, I think I'm kind of cute, but Sara is drop dead smokin gorgeous. I like how she's so different from the run-of-the-mill blonde glamour babe look which is kind of boring. She even has the audacity to have small natural breasts in this day and age, imagine. So they call her "skinny" and "not glamorous."

Quote from: Hypatia on July 21, 2008, 12:27:23 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2008, 07:59:47 AMOh! Sara Bareilles!  I though that was a picture of you when you were younger.

LOL-- baby do you ever know how to flirt! Flattery will get you everywhere.  ;D 

I do know how to flirt, but I wasn't flirting.  The shape of your face, nose, eyes, hair, etc. are remarkably like hers.  The only givaways are the shape of your eyebrows and the width of your mouth.

It always feels like a slap in the face when some guy says I do something really well for a girl or better than any girl he's ever seen.  I used to get that with guitar, but I kept improving, and the past couple of years people tend to say I play better than anyone they've ever seen.  I hadn't gone into a Guitar Center for a while, but I went in Yesterday and tried out a guitar.  There were about 20 wunderkins in there ripping out their best riffs, and I think it was the first time I didn't feel any jealosy at all.  I didn't have any of them gather around and kneel down and bow their heads and hands to the carpet and pray to the "Rock Goddess" like some have done in the past, but I could see some of them were thinking about it.  It was really crowded, though.

But the day before yesterday I was playing disc golf and some guys said I throw better than any girl they've ever seen.  Now, I've played at a course with a women's league and the scores posted, and I know there are a lot of women out there outscoring me.  So I feel a bit slighted.  I guess I will just have to work on it.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 21, 2008, 04:07:30 AM
Who was it who said the best male beauty always includes a touch of the feminine and the best female beauty always includes a touch of the masculine-- I think they were exactly right. I'm definitely hot for Johnny Depp.

Brunette women with strong Mediterranean features are the most beautiful to me-- like Sara Bareilles. Hmm, coincidentally, those are my traits too... go figure...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcelebrity-pics.movieeye.com%2Fcelebrity_pictures%2FSara_Bareilles_398663.jpg&hash=94837b6fe949f7d2ad2029f0a33398f5f2a519f9)

I, too, love the Med look. I find it interesting that it has become rather common for those women to want to alter their noses because they think they are too big. I've always thought their faces, and the rest of them, were gorgeous. So, it isn't just us trans who are forever chasing an ideal from someplace else.

One thing I had always admired and envied was girls with long dark hair. So, one of the first things I did when I began honoring my femaleness, was to go out and buy a wig like that. It's gorgeous, I still have it, even though I never wear it anymore, having grown my own hair long.

Sara is breathtaking. Thanks for sharing the picture of her, Hypatia.

Stealth

Then there's me (yay!). I have lots boy-ish traits but I some how pull it off some how, it seems. I don't really know how, but I don't get bothered for being a boy and people think I'm cute (especially to other lesbians, which works to my advantage.. I love being cute to other lesbians).

So, anyway, the lesson is to try to use those features as your advantage, rather than mis-advantage.

Here's me around July 7-ish... I forget the actual day we went out to the Calgary Stampede.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh83%2Facadia_green%2Fmestampede2008.jpg&hash=fbeb83b823fb70e70a859342b21b7171a44f53bd)

And here's one with me looking forward, and not a side angle (and yes, a different hat)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh83%2Facadia_green%2Fme2stampede2008.jpg&hash=d4e3dd74e2510a1d214945557f195bc160ba7eab)


Oh, and this is me in May -- more of a close up pic.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh83%2Facadia_green%2Fmay192008-14.jpg&hash=aa2ef6700f4b7e8b735f195cdfde0b5d68c6a81a)

masculine femininity is so cooool.
my wife and I are masculine women  ;D
much like Eileen Davidson, except that she looks really tall!