Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was discussing with a friend about a transsexual friend that has been in RLT for the last fifteen years and she is engaged to a female. His question to me was "Does she still have her penis?" He feels that as long as she has that, she is still technically a male and not a female. I tried to defend my transsexual friend but there was no point,   ???  even though she has been living and working as a female for the last fifteen years.

Gina

FIFTEEN YEARS????

I don't think I'd call that a RLT - sounds more like a "life style" choice.

              It may not be by choice. She may not be able to have SRS due to financial or health reasons.  I wont get into whether she is a woman here as we never seem to be able to define "woman" and I don't know her particular situation.




beth

Quote from: beth on November 23, 2005, 07:11:14 PM
I wont get into whether she is a woman here as we never seem to be able to define "woman" and I don't know her particular situation.

I will.  If she's legally changed her name, is living and working fulltime as a woman, and never reverts to her previous male identity then she's a woman especially given she's been at it 15 years.  It's that simple.  "Technically still a male" per Gina's post is crock.  We do not define ourselves by our genitals.  Period.

Gina, unless your male friend has some special qualifications, I doubt his opinion is valid.

Dawn

well we all know too well that our genetalia doesnt define our gender... i  think other people have a problem with wanting to draw a line between man and woman, some people sit down and tell us what is a transexual and all the rules when they dont have a sodding clue they just feel a little threatened and confused by it all,

My questions are:   Did you have permission to talk about this person private information?  If not, why were you discussing something that is no ones business? 

If there is a valid medical reason that makes surgery impossible then I would accord them the status of woman.  I cannot accept the money issue. $50 a month for 15 years plus interest is way over $9K.  9K buys a damn good surgeon.


Leigh

<<<< well we all know too well that our genetalia doesnt define our gender... i  think other people have a problem with wanting to draw a line between man and woman, some people sit down and tell us what is a transexual and all the rules when they dont have a sodding clue they just feel a little threatened and confused by it all, >>>>

Not really.  I went back a re-read this string, and it didn't seem to me that anyone was trying to diss someone. I think that if anything, TG people seem to be confused as a whole.  Everyone always states that we should not confuse sex and gender. Yet, that seems to be happening here.

As for the woman in question, if she lives as a woman full-time, and has made every attempt to change every piece of documentation that she legally can, than I see everyone according to her wish to be addressed as a woman.  That is her gender-role.

BUT...........the other observation is also valid.  Changing one's legal status (i.e. gender role) does nothing to address their physical anatomy.  Therefore, in the realm of sex, or sexual identity, technically and societally, she is still male.  But as long as she does not expose herself, no one will know, so the point is moot.

Some would also argue that changing one's genitalia also does not change their sexual identity. Do not confuse sexual-identity with sexual-preference.  More specifically, many dykes would argue that a m2f post-op is still male in their opinion.  Which is their perogative.

I would observe that the very term trans-gendered is short hand for transgendered-male, or transgendered-female.  The former referring to a m2f and the latter to f2m's.  Conversely, referring to someone as transsexual would suggest that their sexual-identity is at issue, not their gender. Part of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

So, I do not believe that it is an either/or situation.  The person to whom is referred above could accurately be called both a woman and male.  It depends on the level you are speaking about.  After post-sugical intervention, she could be referred to as both woman and female.  But in some corners, she will always be simply male regardless of her wishes.  C'est la vie.

Why worry about it?

Quote from: Thundra on November 24, 2005, 03:33:34 AM

I would observe that the very term trans-gendered is short hand for transgendered-male, or transgendered-female.  The former referring to a m2f and the latter to f2m's.  Conversely, referring to someone as transsexual would suggest that their sexual-identity is at issue, not their gender. Part of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

I think this is an interesting observation.  Transsexual and transgendered tend to have very specific personally derived meanings within these communties and are little understood outside those communities.  The term "transsexual" is very ambiguous in that it suggests it is about sex not gender (the average person has no clue there is a difference), and yet, most transsexuals don't want to be described as transgendered because to them, this implies something different--that they are CDs or TVs and they don't necessarily want to be lumped together with these groups.  Labels labels labels...

Dawn

QuotePart of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

I agree Thundra,

It does cause confusion particularly when they are used interchangably by those that don't know the difference and use one over the other as a "nicer" alternative or as one being more politically correct.

QuoteBut in some corners, she will always be simply male regardless of her wishes.

Way way too true unfortunately.

Shelley

QuoteThe term "transsexual" is very ambiguous in that it suggests it is about sex not gender

True to a point DawnL. In clinical terms it is not ambiguous though. It is specific to those who must completely change their physical gender, such as myself. It is however a term that we TS's do find erroneous and misleading. In point of fact GID was previously SID thus now we have gender Identity dysphoria instead of sexual identity dysphoria. In general I prefer transwoman. Someone like Dennis may prefer Transman. We use TS here because we have both and want to include both sexes. But you are right it is somewhat ambigous.

Well, there you go I started out kinda disagreeing and ended up agreeing. I'll just post this anyway.  ;D

Cassie

Quote from: Cassandra on November 26, 2005, 12:12:24 AM
True to a point DawnL. In clinical terms it is not ambiguous though. It is specific to those who must completely change their physical gender, such as myself. It is however a term that we TS's do find erroneous and misleading. In point of fact GID was previously SID thus now we have gender Identity dysphoria instead of sexual identity dysphoria. In general I prefer transwoman. Someone like Dennis may prefer Transman. We use TS here because we have both and want to include both sexes. But you are right it is somewhat ambigous.

Well, there you go I started out kinda disagreeing and ended up agreeing. I'll just post this anyway.  ;D

Cassie

I think transman and transwoman are good but when defining everyone in that group,  transsexual is the word we use but it is archaic much as sexual identity disorder is.  Using your GID analogy, the correct term for the group should be transgenders but this word also describes CDs, TVs, genderqueer, and genderbenders.  While I think CD and genderqueer may be milder forms of gender dysphoria, I don't want to be lumped with the gender benders or TVs or are often something different (my opinion only).  We're probably stuck with transsexual though many who transition become men or women and escape the term altogether.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on November 26, 2005, 06:22:12 AM
I think transman and transwoman are good but when defining everyone in that group,  transsexual is the word we use but it is archaic much as sexual identity disorder is.  Using your GID analogy, the correct term for the group should be transgenders but this word also describes CDs, TVs, genderqueer, and genderbenders.  While I think CD and genderqueer may be milder forms of gender dysphoria, I don't want to be lumped with the gender benders or TVs or are often something different (my opinion only).  We're probably stuck with transsexual though many who transition become men or women and escape the term altogether.

Dawn

I still perfer transgender. I know it's an umbrella term but it's descriptively accurate. or as my Subtitle says "We stand at the crossroads of gender balanced on the sharp edge of a knife."

We all know that we have some pretty good defnitions for Transgender, transsexual, etc., but do we really have a good definition of woman or man? Look it up in the dictionary or any other place.
Sheila

Dictionaries are fluid. Aint was not a word until it became a part of the dictionary. Latin is a dead language because the definitions of the words are not changeable. Take most words from todays dictionary and compare them to a Webster's from the 19th century. Today's defintion is tommorrows archaic term. We define who we are why should'nt we define the word and the definition.

Cassie

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile, trying to figure out where I stand on the use of terms.

It's not as straight forward as it ought to be, is it?

First, the "M" or "F" on identification papers such as driver's licence is to aid in the identification of an individual so one would expect such documents to reflect the apparent sex of an individual.

For anything medical of course, the anotomical sex is appropriate, except in the cases where knowing the individual used to be the opposite sex is important.

It gets complicated! If an anotomical male, living as a woman, is arrested for a serious crime, do you put them in a women's jail? (They're in deep doo-doo no matter which one they're sent to!)

As to the word "transsexual" I have mixed feelings about it. "Trans" meaning in a state of movement or change, or spanning boundaries only half fits. For me, I did not see anything in a state of change or spanning boundaries; the apparatus I was born with was typically male and the mind was typically female so it was a simple (static) birth defect. Post-operatively I didn't use the term. If I had to explain to a doctor or someone what happened, I simply said I was born with male genetalia.

For myself at least, the term transgendered is something I can't clearly define, maybe because I  don't put the same limitations on the gender roles that broader society does. If I see a female with short hair riding a Harley I think "Cool!"

JMHO and worth what you paid for it ;)

QuoteIf an anotomical male, living as a woman, is arrested for a serious crime, do you put them in a women's jail? (They're in deep doo-doo no matter which one they're sent to!)

I think the answer is obvious either

Be good or Don't get caught.

I'm for the first option.

Beth, in answer to your question, I  think my friend chooses to be the way she is. But you know, Northern Jane, I really think that she's well past the RLT stage, since she's been living for fifteen years as a woman. Sorry Dawn, but my post is not a crock. She has had everything legally changed.

If anyone is interested you can read about her in her website at: www.dawnashley.com. She gives a very nice bio  on her website.

Gina

All I can say here after visiting her site. Hell she is  a woman
period!!!! She I guess transsitioned at what 15? If we all had Aunts or mothers like she grew up with, we'd all be in a easier way. Not to mention all the help from her college
girlfriends. I don't see how lables fit her anymore. She is what she is a WOMAN.

That's a very good assesment Jennifer. She's had a very good transition since she was eight, thanks to her grandmother and so forth. I wish that we all could have it so easy. I'll be personally talking with her soon, as I've recently developed a nice friendship with her. Hopefully I shouldn't embarass her with any unexpected questions.  :-[

Gina

 

QuoteThe term "transsexual" is very ambiguous

Don't see anything "ambiguous" about the word at all.  originally it was a medical term to describe only those who exhibited cross sex behavior and also desired surgery. 

We've been through it more times then not around here, but "Transgendered" was a term originally coined by Virginia Prince to describe someone who had all the characteristics of a transsexual except that they didn't feel surgery was necessary to thier relief.  Transgenderd was applied only to those who lived full time in the cross sex invironment full time but did not seek surgical and/or hormonial treatment.  All other subsets of what is now called Transgender were recognized as CD/TV etc.....

over time all the subsets began using the Transgendered label and eventually even Transsexuals began using it to describe themselves because of the aversion to the word "sex" in Transsexual, which is why many hold that the word Transgender has no actual meaning anymore.

Personally I see the term "sex" in the TS label unthreatning, since to me, It really is about sex, or the changing of it by definition, NOBODY is going to change my Gender as in TG, it is the sex of my body that is being addressed, not my Gender and why I still use the term SRS rather then GRS which again is popular among those who resent the word "Sex" and would rather say thier Gender is being changed.  Actually it really doesn't matter what is in a word, it matters only that personal goals are accomplished, and in todays world, though it has not rational as to what it is actually describing, the word Transgendered is more recognized by the common public then the term Transsexual, though that term is explicitly specific as to what it refers to.  All I want is what I need and what anyone calls me is a little irrevelant, as long as it is female or woman.

QuoteIt really is about sex, or the changing of it by definition, NOBODY is going to change my Gender

YOU TELL 'EM TERRI-GENE!

In a strange sense of timing, "Law & Order: SVU" was on last night and aired "Fallacy" (episode 4.21 from 2003), the story about a pre-op who killed her boyfriend's brother to protect her secret. It is a particularly well-done portrayal (in my humble opinion) and touches on many of the problems with being pre-op.

               I agree with Terri as far as the history goes.   The word TRANSsexual was a misnomer in my opinion since "TRANS" suggests movement as in transition.

               The word for the surgery needed should be Genital Correction Surgery  GCS in my mind.  Transsexual would be dropped in my world and replaced with something like "Misbodied" to more clearly illustrate what the condition is.


beth

GRS>>>>>>>>>>> genital reconstruction surgery

   It's better than SRS but "reconstruction" sounds like an option rather than a correction IMO.

Quote from: gina_taylor on November 28, 2005, 10:48:30 AM
Beth, in answer to your question, I  think my friend chooses to be the way she is. But you know, Northern Jane, I really think that she's well past the RLT stage, since she's been living for fifteen years as a woman. Sorry Dawn, but my post is not a crock. She has had everything legally changed.

Gina, I was not saying your post was a crock, I was saying the idea that a full time non-op transwoman is still technically male is a crock.  Sadly, there are some transsexuals who believe that unless you have had SRS or are actively seeking SRS, you're only TG and technically still male.  On the other hand, just because someone looks very feminine, per this woman's website, doesn't mean she's a woman.  There are plenty of CDs who can do the same thing.

Dawn

Very good points there Terri. You've really given me alot of thought about everything.

I remember Virginia Prince. Kelly Stevens, a past member of Susan's had mentioned her to me, and I had forgotten that she had coined the phrase "Transgendered". More or less people have over exagerrated the term these days, and I agree with you that the word 'Transgender doesn't really hold much meaning anymore either.

But as for SRS vs GRS, the way that I see it is that we are changing our sex not our gender. When a doctor pulls the new born baby out from the mother's womb, he announces the 'sex' not the 'gender.' of the baby.But I do agree with you that as long as I am recognized in the common public as a woman or a female, I'll be happy.  :)


I'm sorry Dawn if I offended you. No hard feelings.  I was just reading Gia Darling's website and she is quite happy with the way she is and she says that femininity is in the mind and not between the legs. So I understand your point there.

I hope that you all enjoyed reading Dawn's Bio. I found it to be very interesting.

Gina

Just me I guess, but it occurs to me if a lot of people spent less time wondering what to call themselves and working for what they want instead, there would be a lot happier bunch of people out there.  Remember all the sayings of the past, like "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me".

Thats only a little bit true as we all know that words do hurt, but given the situation, it is just one of those things we have to take in stride for our own mental protection.  It is a matter of what you are, not what people without a clue call you.

I'd buy that particular definition of GRS Leigh, but I hear it used in several ways I can't agree with.

Terri

It is surgery plain and simple.

The only reason there is debate is to find something that is acceptable to society.  It is the same at the cd/tv/tg/ts/pre/post arguement.  Justification for where or what.

Some dr's are board certified plastic surgeons, urologists or both.  So you are having plastic surgery or urology problems needing an operation.  Thats all anyone else needs to know and probably more than they care about.

Leigh

Last night I had the opportunity of meeting Dawn, and I was a little surprised. She wasn't quite what I had expected from her young pictures, and she actually looked older than she was. She introduced me to a friend, and later that night to my surprise I found out that she is a transsexual who has been living full time for the last seven years. She was very convincing! Unfortunately due to a heart problem, she cannot start HRT, so she's content with breast forms, and as you know those that are not on HRT cannot do SRS. But she's happy now being able to live full time as a  woman.

Gina

Not being able to do HRT does not exclude SRS. However if she is content with the status quoue, good for her. I met Denise this past month and she was quite passable. HRT is not the end all be all Gina. There are options should you find you cannot go down that road. Don't fret hon. Just keep your eyes on the prize.

Cassie

whats more important, looking like a girl or being one?  And being on HRT or not has absolutely no bearing on the ability to withstand SRS unless there are health reasons that would prevent it anyway.

Terri

Quote from: beth on November 30, 2005, 12:54:05 AM
   It's better than SRS but "reconstruction" sounds like an option rather than a correction IMO.

GRS = genital reconstructive surgery make sense to me because genital reconstruction is purely cosmetic. Once a person has had an orchiectomy they have done all there is needed both mtf and ftm to get the gender change by social security and on birth certificates.

After an orchiectomy its purely cosmetic. Thats the same for a FTM who gets a historectomy.. Many DR's will give you the letter for saying you had a gender change if you had an orchy and name change and live as a woman. This is the same for FTM's.. If they have a histo and name change and live as a man thats all they need. anything else is purely cosmetic legally.


However, jails and some prejudice people will say differently.

I could agree with your logic Danielgirl and there would be many who would not seek surgery anyway who would agree with you, but for the few, no amount of legal papers will make it for them.  It's a matter of knowing you are no different and subject to the same things as other women.

I'm orchie, and I possess absolutely no male identification and have lived, worked  and identified as a female for many years before HRT which I am now into since Sept of 2003, and I can tell you right now it does nothing toward relieving my view of myself nor would any more legal paperwork I could obtain.  It's not about paperwork, it's about what is and is not and until I am no different I will not feel completely female, even though realistically I will probably never use a vagina, it's just that it will be there, even if it is never used.  Thats the only way I understand my condition and nothing short of that completes or fullfills anything.

Cosmetic?  About as cosmetic as a triple bypass to a heart patient.  I see nothing cosmetic about it, it is a necessary proceedure for my continued mental health and ability to funtion as a human being.


Terri

Quote from: Danielegrl on December 04, 2005, 08:30:44 PM
GRS = genital reconstructive surgery make sense to me because genital reconstruction is purely cosmetic. Once a person has had an orchiectomy they have done all there is needed both mtf and ftm to get the gender change by social security and on birth certificates.

This procedure is not cosmetic to transsexuals.  I think that definition (GRS = genital reconstructive surgery) works in that many transsexuals view their condition as a birth defect and by extension, their genitals as a birth defect.  So in that sense, the surgery is correcting a defect, hence is reconstruction.  There is considerable argument that those who do not seek surgery are not transsexual, who, by definition have the overwhelming desire to make themselves as much like the opposite gender as possible.  For these people, there is nothing cosmetic about this procedure and I agree with Terri-Gene that I won't feel completely female until that "thing" has been fixed.

Dawn

I'm sorry, but I do beg to differ about the useage of hormones. In this area, I've done my homework, and I know  that 98% of the surgeons doing SRS require that the patient must be on hormones for a certain length of time. Now in answer to your question Terri, I feel it is both. I watched Dawn play a game of pool, and some of her mannerisms were masculine instead of feminine, and it got me thinking that she looks like a woman but acts like a man. It could be vice versa. Thoughts to ponder  ???

Gina

That really does offend me.

Just because I was born like this does not make me a male.

People always tell me not to judge a book by the cover. but they're always doing it, just like if I told them I was a girl, and they started to hate me, that'd be very much judging the book by the cover.

Inside is what always matters... That's what I've been told, and I kind of wish my mom would stay true to that... ::)

So true Victoria, I have known for many years, even before I was molested by a man at the age of 5 that i was a female. I played with paper dolls, did makeup and hair on my sisters and they did the same for me, I even got my best friend to join in (he was a male), after many years my best friend said to me it's ok if you are gay I still like you as a friend. WOW thanks but I am not gay, he thought because I never had a girlfriend for so many years that I was gay. The truth is, I never identified with a male female relationship nor a male relationship for that matter because of the man who molested me. I spent years trying to find out why I was the way I was and bended to pressure from society to be a male. I had so many problems with testosterone it was not funny, it created more stress in my life than anyone could imagine. I can hear the words even now of my then pshcyatrist "theres nothing wrong with you, you are just a red blooded male" but then he told my mother that I would face a life long battle with gender issues. So I guess the theory behind being born a male you are a male or are pre-op transexuals still males is stupid. I hate my genitals and have always wanted them to look like a females, my shapely body resembled a female body, I have always been very far removed from the male identity everyone else has given me and to this day I cannot relate to males on a mateship basis. SO the answer for me is yes a pre-op transexual is always a female first. Her mind is what makes her a woman, not HRT not GRS. Do I think that males brains can change by taking hormones hell yes.

Sara.

Last night I went to the gender friendly nightclub and Dawn was a little more friendly with me, and I really thought that she was a real woman to me in her attributes. She was nicely dressed and her mannerisms weer very feminine. So I agree with both Victoria and Sara on the notion that transsexualism is of the mind and is not of the surgeries.

I have just come to terms with myself that my mental problems are that I have a female brain and that is perhaps one thing that my neuropsychologist has overlooked. That I am a man with a woman's brain! Thoughts to ponder.

Gina

Define "woman" before this conversation has any real meaning.  A vagina?  A female brain?  Certain mannerisms or traits?  A genetic test?  The answer is not so easy because for any definition you write, there will be exceptions.  Are the women outside your definition then not women? 

Discussion about mannerisms are meaningless because there are plenty of women with man-ish gaits and man-ish gestures or speech and all those women are quite certain of their femininity.  Femininity here does NOT mean the normal suggestion of dainty, made-up, dressed in a girly way, or excessively girlish mannerism--it means only the sense of being female.  Too many transfolks confuse the two IMO.

You are what you are.  Anyone can call themselves a woman and they may actually believe it with great conviction but do other people *see* you as a woman, treat you like a woman?  Are you accepted as a woman?  It think it is pretty hard to forge on if other men and women won't accept you as a woman. 

This has always been the transsexual dilemma.  Some respond with excessive displays of femininity, some remain more male and insist they are women anyway, and some blow their brains out because they can't handle the conflict of their internal conviction versus what the world reflects back.  Many have surgery to become more congruent.  Whether this makes them women is another matter.

I think this discussion is moot.  It really is just another labeling exercise.  I think it matters most that women truly accept you as one of them by action and deed, not by title or how you are dressed.

Dawn

Well this may offend some but it is the best description I have seen, and it was on this forum by Adel, a past member. It impressed me enough that I saved the quote:

GID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex. It only makes you Think you are and at that point you are subject to all of the same variations that exist with in that gender and all persons of a particular gender don't meet the cultural/social expectations of others for that gender. It is how you relate to/with and are axcepted by the opposite sex and or gender that determines your actual membership. Once you take that to the bank, they cash it in for you and life becomes brighter, trust me on this.

The core identity simply is not affected by the views of others, rather how we are able to face the world with that core identity because of our own fear which is a product of the views of others until delt with and conquered within ourselves. The core identity can only come through in it's fullest expression when it has ceased to be afraid to do so and actually has learned to respect itself for what it is.

In other words, the GID itself is not in conflict. Instincts such as self preservation and pride are instead in conflict with GID.

_______________________

It's about realizing the non-negotiable nature of human dignity, and the fact that others can't take that from me unless I give it away. ~Donna Rose~

I have to agree with you Dawn especially the following:

Quote from: DawnYou are what you are.  Anyone can call themselves a woman and they may actually believe it with great conviction but do other people *see* you as a woman, treat you like a woman?  Are you accepted as a woman?  It think it is pretty hard to forge on if other men and women won't accept you as a woman.

I can't remember if we had a topic on "What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter.  But I can imagine that there would be a lot of variety in the answers and the debate around them.  And yes there are some transsexuals who go over board to make the point that they are a woman.  I believe that it relates a lot to the anxieties that many experience and suffer during transition and even afterwards I guess.  I remember a while back when I started living full time, a little JK boy remarked that "Hey, how come you sound like a boy"  That takes the wind out of your sails, for a second anyway.

Steph

Female brain is fairly normal from what I understand, although it depends on the theories (Personally I think Dr. Bushong has the right idea).

That said, by definition a pre-op (which is to say on HRT but with original parts) is NOT male. Male's have testosterone flowing unimpeded though their body... But I suppose any such shallow definition is rather inaccurate.

However, defining "woman" has never left us with any agreement, which I rather think supports Dawn's thought.


An last, but very definitely not least...
*HUGS Sandi TWICE* (=

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on January 21, 2006, 01:52:22 PM
 a little JK boy remarked that "Hey, how come you sound like a boy" That takes the wind out of your sails, for a second anyway.

Steph.

I will bet that I have the worst voice here.  Thanks to cancer of the lymph nodes, the surgery to take them out.  I have a horizontal scar 6 inches long in the middle of my neck.  Combine that with 7 weeks, 5 days a week, of radiation.  If you have no idea what it is like take a lump of raw meat and microwave it on high for two minutes every day for 35 days.  The radiation literally cooks your taste buds, saliva glands and vocal cords.  Imagine trying to talk with a voice that sounds like crap and it will never ever get better.

I have had kids say the same thing in front of their parents and when the mom tells them  "don't be silly of course shes a girl" makes it all go away.  Women have all ranges of voice--Sandra Bullock for one.  Yea having a great voice does help but its perception that makes the identification female or male.  If they see a woman it would take some really DA stunt to reverse it.

Leigh

What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

I thought it had been done.

Steph

For me as a CD I think the first but it did take a lot of thought.

Shelley

Lke the photo Leigh. Must say though Inever picked you for a lady in pink.

That was taken 5 years ago Shelly.  I put it up for Mario's benefit.  He is confused.

Is this more my style?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy6%2FLeighS%2FTribeLeighPatch.jpg&hash=1d89f2183f42518ef071167c90e21eb00b2df6af)

Hey,

I like pink, but after looking at the baseball cap for a while I didn't expect.... or maybe it's the whip. :D

Shelley

Quote from: DawnL on January 21, 2006, 10:52:33 AM<snip>
This has always been the transsexual dilemma.  Some respond with excessive displays of femininity, some remain more male and insist they are women anyway, and some blow their brains out because they can't handle the conflict of their internal conviction versus what the world reflects back.  Many have surgery to become more congruent.  Whether this makes them women is another matter.

I think this discussion is moot.  It really is just another labeling exercise.  I think it matters most that women truly accept you as one of them by action and deed, not by title or how you are dressed.

I think the discussion is moot for us, who have come to terms with ourselves and are now striving to make ourselves a little more -- uhm --  coherent.  Yeah, labels suck, and I for one feel it's 'way rude to label anyone.

But there are those who label and pigeonhole mercilessly.  Maybe this discussion is good as 1) a look at how some non-TG/TS people might see/perceive/label TS/TG people, and 2) how to come up with ways to defend against such labeling, because we ain't gonna' wish it away.

An example for point 2 is the people who pigeonhole post-op transsexuals as weird/insane/bad/(insert negative label here) because 'God doesn't make mistakes' or some other overly righteous horse-pucky.  I read a good response to that non-argument -- "Then harelips and club feet shouldn't be surgically corrected because god doesn't make any mistakes."

Now, such graduates of the School of Constipated Thinking will tell you "He" has a penis, therefore the pre-ops are still male.  I'm also sure they believe that the post-ops are still male, only castrated.  So why waste time trying to convince them we are otherwise.

For me, I go by the pronoun you want to be called by.  And there are plenty of supportive non-TS/TG people out there who will do the same.

As others have pointed out, maleness/femaleness is not an either/or quality -- it's a continuum that ranges from ultra-male to ultra-female with two gaussian peaks or clusters, one for the average males and another for the average females.  I myself feel I'm in between the peaks but much closer to the female peak than male, but I have a hunch I'll preserve a few male traits over my transition as I shift more and more toward the female end of the continuum.

Now this thread does kind of intersect on my still-fuzzy plans for my own transition.  Because of the view that society generally has that you're 'either' one 'or' the other, I'm considering using a cut-over date at work, where I stop being male and start being female, complete with change of name, dress, toilet facilities, etc.  It'll be confusing as hell for two or three months, as well as being 'way stressful on me, but I have a hunch that it'll settle down after that -- with the occasional pronoun error by those who knew me when I was a 'he'.

Gee, I've rambled a while... ;-)

Haz

Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

What's behind door number three?  I think I'd have to put being accepted just a little higher than being able to pass, but dammit I want BOTH!!!

Wait wait wait! You're not saying weird/insane are ^*gasp* something bad are you? ^{*innocent look*}

But besides, anyone who wants to think of me as a man has a really weird definition of a man. ^*shrug* More power to them I guess. Yea they have to pigeonhole because they have no other basis to go on. After all, most people do fit in the either or definition... at least publicly.


By the by I will preserve a few 'male' traits because in part I will not be some defenseless lollypop, but I am very definitely shifting those parts around to function how I, as a girl, want them to work. Does that make them not male traits any more? ^{*smiles and shrugs*}

Anyone notice my definition of a pure woman? ... that stereotypical defenseless always trips at the wrong type etc. ad nausium portrayal that NO woman actually is? Amusing what society would have you think, isn't it? But that is sort of why I phrased that the way I did. Traits that can be considered 'male' really aren't exclusively male at all. Do you call Cynthia Rothrock a guy because she can defend herself(understatement) which tends to be your traditionally male domain?


p.s. as I recall that was a good thread so I present to you Passing or Acceptance, redux (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2126.0.html) (=

Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

When the weather is nice I work on my car in the driveway, rotate tires, change the oil.  Does that make me anything other than a woman capable of taking care of myself?

I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 08:20:24 PM
Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

When the weather is nice I work on my car in the driveway, rotate tires, change the oil.  Does that make me anything other than a woman capable of taking care of myself?

Amen!  I taught my sisters how to do tune-ups and adjust the valves on their volkswagens.  They didn't like to do it, but they did when they realized it saved them about $75 a pop to have someone else pretend to do it.

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 08:20:24 PM
I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.

Like, did you know my mother?  She was always saying that.

Haz

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 08:20:24 PM
Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.
...

Yup, exactly. (=

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 08:20:24 PM...
I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.
...

I'm glad to see I'm not alone. (=

Quote from: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 08:20:24 PM
Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

Yup.  I've been told numerous times, "if you're going to be a woman, you have to do this, or you can't do that...".  Well, I am a woman and if I'm doing it, it must be okay for women to do it.

Dawn

Quote from: LeighIn one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Fortuanately that isn't a choice we have to make. I would assume that is why you got no verdict.

Sandi

Thanks Dawn for your input.

What I meant by Dawn's mannerisms, was that she walks, talks and acts like a woman. The same as I do, and teh others that I meet at this gender friendly night club. So yes they do accept me as a woman and they treat me as a woman.

Yes Sandi, I remember Adel. And I agree with your thoughts about GID.

Presentation always comes first, Sometimes my voice is a little off, but as long as I look good and am presentable, then I've already won half the battle.  :)

Gina

heres my two cents (YAH!!! Now we got a dollar!)
anyway,
I know Biological females (just regular females not FtM or anything) that I myself would classify as men just based on the way they talk, mannerism, the way the carrier themselves etc. (and Yes I tell them that all the time!) I mean come on

if it looks like a duck..........
quacks like a duck..........
Walks like a duck..............
And socializes with other ducks.........

guess what

its a damn duck!!!!

Chynna

now that we have a dollar can someone take me to the .99 cents store!!??

Now that you have a dollar Chynna, can you make change for me.  And talk about raising things from the dead, this topic is from January :D :D  Sorry I couldn't resist, all topics are valid.

I just cracking myself up here, I know, I know, my meds are wearing off.

Steph

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2006, 10:45:08 AM
If you are only looking physically at the individual, don't forget that as hormones do their work, the body becomes less male and more female.  Generally men do not have large breasts or feminine curves.

Melissa

Melissa:
yes, men(some)  do have breasts and curves, not the ones you might want but horrifyinly so. I have seen guys at the beach  that people felt like asking them to please wear a bikini top or a bra, but do something the kids are staring...
  I don't know...but i did see it, sheila

Quote from: sheila18 on July 11, 2006, 12:12:37 AM
Melissa:
yes, men(some)  do have breasts and curves, not the ones you might want but horrifyinly so. I have seen guys at the beach  that people felt like asking them to please wear a bikini top or a bra, but do something the kids are staring...
  I don't know...but i did see it, sheila

Come to think of it ditto!! I remember seeing quiet a few men with female shapes and or chest like a womans down in AC and Rehobeth Beach.
however most of the men with breast didn't actually have real breast they were crafted from years of eating hot dogs, hamburgers, snacks etc........LOL :D

Chynna

Sorry to hear that AC is still about the same, LOL.

Quote from: sheila18 on July 11, 2006, 12:12:37 AM
Melissa:
yes, men(some)  do have breasts and curves, not the ones you might want but horrifyinly so. I have seen guys at the beach  that people felt like asking them to please wear a bikini top or a bra, but do something the kids are staring...
  I don't know...but i did see it, sheila

Reminds me of a guy I knew in high school, a little chubby guy with female hips and behind. He also had a pretty high voice. The more weight he put on, the bigger his hips and behind got, just like a girl's. I gave that boy hell.

Nero

-Are you on a HRT program wich one"
-yes, hotdogs and Phillie cheese burgers, mostly fries and burgers :angel:
-oh, who is your doctor? ???
- I got the best Wendy McDonals next to TGI Friday's  :D

sheila  ;D

Quote from: sheila18 on July 11, 2006, 11:53:05 AM
-Are you on a HRT program wich one"
-yes, hotdogs and Phillie cheese burgers, mostly fries and burgers :angel:
-oh, who is your doctor? ???
- I got the best Wendy McDonals next to TGI Friday's  :D

sheila  ;D

LMAO LITTERALLY

MC Hormones! guaranteed results transition in just weeks!

Chica I literally spit my water all over my keyboard when I read your post...
Now I have to explain that to IT!

Chynna

chynna:
I give up, Ive looked all over and I can't find IT.
am embarrased, but i gotta ask ... :'(  What is IT?     uurrgghhh :(
sheila

Quote from: sheila18 on July 11, 2006, 12:56:13 PM
chynna:
I give up, Ive looked all over and I can't find IT.
am embarrased, but i gotta ask ... :'(  What is IT?     uurrgghhh :(
sheila

LOL Sorry Tech talk IT= Information Technology (services) Helpdesk baby! I need a new keyyyybooarrd because of you!! LOL

chynna:
OH :o   I thought it was something like cindianna's Squirrel or Tinkerbel's green duck ...I thought
sheila18

Quote from: sheila18 on July 11, 2006, 01:14:27 PM
chynna:
  well am still a male that can be a man,

HEY even the best of us......have our days!!!! Mines tuesdays what about you! :icon_blink: :icon_weirdface: :icon_yikes:

chynna:
mmmh, mondays and tuesdays have been
, sheila18

Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 01, 2006, 05:52:18 PM
Well, you'd be surprised to know how many people within the transgender community think this way ::). 
  It sadens me deeply to realize that some members of my own community can be that blind and ignorant. 

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Tinker:
I am not sure and do not want to assume. so is your post a response to another topic or what in particular? I think i miss that.
  If it is about the previous entry to your post that would make it a response to my post of July 11 ... Did I ofended you, If I did am sorry because you would be on of the last persons I would even imagine to hurt, Please accept my appologies if I did, however I must say that perhaps I was misunderstood. 
  I feel female some days and male other
this is not a result of an internal argumentt or philosophical concept.
This is how I was born.
I used to fight it for years i used to feel ashemed and like i ewas bettraying myself for feeling masculine. I wanted so hard to be purely 100% unadulterated femenine female.  That is not who I am.
  I am not preaching and saying that everibody is really like me, that is not what i am saying.
There ARE SOME TRANSEXUALS TO THE CHAGRIN OF SOME THAT HAPEN TO EXPERIENCE  IN A HOT BLOODED WAY BOTH SEXES.
  You are correct when you say "I just can't conceive the idea that some of the people who have shared the same type of insecurities, experiences and bigotry from society in general can give themselves the luxury to label other transsexuals simply because ..."
I was not labeling any one just putting out there my life experience.
If your comment was refering to my post, please believe that am sorry that you feel hurt, if not please disregard my words.
Sheila18

Quote from: sheila18 on September 05, 2006, 12:02:15 AM

Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 01, 2006, 05:52:18 PM
Well, you'd be surprised to know how many people within the transgender community think this way ::). 
  It sadens me deeply to realize that some members of my own community can be that blind and ignorant. 

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Tinker:
I am not sure and do not want to assume. so is your post a response to another post or what in particular?
  If it is about the previous entry to your post that would make it a response to my post of July 11 ... Did I ofended you, If I did am sorry because you would be on of the last persons I would even imagine to hurt, Please accept my appologies if I did, however I must say that perhaps I was misunderstood. 
  I feel female some days and male other
this is not a result of an internal argumentt or philosophical concept.
This is how I was born.
I used to fight it for years i used to feel ashemed and like i ewas bettraying myself for feeling masculine. I wanted so hard to be purely 100% unadulterated femenine female.  That is not who I am.
  I am not preaching and saying that everibody is really like me, that is not what i am saying.
There ARE SOME TRANSEXUALS TO THE CHAGRIN OF SOME THAT HAPEN TO EXPERIENCE  IN A HOT BLOODED WAY BOTH SEXES.
  You are correct when you say "I just can't conceive the idea that some of the people who have shared the same type of insecurities, experiences and bigotry from society in general can give themselves the luxury to label other transsexuals simply because ..."
I was not labeling any one just putting out there my life experience.
If your comment was refering to my post, please believe that am sorry that you feel hurt, if not please disregard my words.
Sheila18

You?  offended me?  of course not sweetie!  I was just responding to this thread because there are many TS out there to claim they know the difference between sex and gender, and the truth is something totally different.  Girls have never offended me, ever...but men...well that is a different story which I will tell you some other time.  So no, you could never offend me because you are a girl and also my friend. :)

love ya,

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

tinker:
am so glad to hear that, I was feeling like I had just boken the last Ming dinasty vase ...what a relief girl
love you, no matter what, sheial18

Hi Girls

Not to certain what the topic is here, the difference between sex and gender?

I would think that gender is what you feel inside and sex in that biological part of the body that makes a boy or a girl. Call it abnormal or whatever I was never attracted sexually to neither male or female and I could appraise guys just as well as girls for looks.

I was married for six years and what a mess that was. The only reason I got married was because she had child and I wanted to have a family, especially with kids, I love children. There never was realy any sexual attraction to my ex. Seems I indulged sexually only enough to make two kids and this was what deteriorated our marriage, that and she was mentally and physically abusive, a psychotic drunk. When that marriage ended I was somewhat left traumatise from that experience and I seeked out help, Remember I am 5' 3" tall and all of 120 lbs gained five pounds in the past year.  :)

Anyway it was on Susan's chat six years ago that I met another Tgirl and we got to know each other and there was an attraction but not for sex. I finally sponsored her to come live in Ontario Canada and we got married five years ago and two years later I got SRS. That didn't make any difference, I guess I am just not sexually active and my mate feels the same way and we do love, care and support each other and this is all we need to have for a balanced life. But it is darn good to finally be me. I am who I am.

Cin   

Cin:
thank you for your piece of experience. It seems like you are right on topic.
agree on all counts.
Sheila18

Hi Sheila hun, thank you much

For many years I was an alien lost on an alien world in more ways then one. Some I still keep hidden in the closet because most of society are not ready yet to accept and they would not understand it.  But who I am, I have no doubt in my heart. I have found the light to lead me back to complete my journey. I have found my true innerself and the mission must continue and some paths I will have to travel alone.

Cin

cin:
strong words from a strong soul, kwel 8)   It seems to me that time is a necessary element to find joy and peace in our transgendered journey, we finally accepted it, can we find the most effective way to help others find that acceptance (cisgendered community)   seems to be the challange for those who have arrived it seems to me.
sheila 18

well here's one for you.

go have your op and live female for 20 yrs...die...and the coroner lists you AS male because your DNA...is male.
have a good day out there.

If am dead probably would not matter would and if it did how do you communicate that and if you did who would believe a dead trannie?   :D :D
but that is reality.
I accept am a ->-bleeped-<-
 
Now here is one for you if you can handle it:   of course i believe you can ...

from a natural point of cause a effects if ...
If post op transexuals are women AND therefore cease to be transexuals then why are they participating in an a transexual forum?
 If the natural way is to stop being trasexual and bingo you are a girly girl, then why would  you have any interest in transexual socializing? ...
Just a question that begs to be asked, regardless of the answer, correct?

  If you believe that you are no longer a transexual, the why call yourself that after post op or be a card carrying member of a transexual fellowship ("The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of profession, religion, or nationality")

  I don't have an aswer and I believe that if we all got honest we would admit that none of us really know the answer.

   So far my belief and only a belief, tells me that what we call womanhood is only an ideal to guide us into the total fullfilment of our destiny which is the mastering of the manly and the womanly ways. Being both is essential to be a healer, shaman, oracle in eart minded societies, which is part of the doctrine of libration. A true liberator is part of both worlds the oppressed and the opressor(Moses) blah blah
have a great one, no matter what, sheila

Quote from: veronica06 on September 11, 2006, 11:43:35 PM
well here's one for you.

go have your op and live female for 20 yrs...die...and the coroner lists you AS male because your DNA...is male.
have a good day out there.

That is not quite true Veronica.  If you are a pre-op transsexual, even with your male genitals intact, the pathologist will list you as female.  And if you have SRS, and then you die, there is absolutely no doubt that whoever is performing your autopsy will list your gender as Female.  Just FYI

tinkerbell  :icon_chick:

P.S.  pathologists don't go by DNA to determine your gender, just FYI as well.