Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone. I'm still new around here (I have only posted in the "do I pass" thread). So basically I'm really short, especially for a guy, or even for anyone in general. I measure 5''2' sometimes even 5''1' and it drives me nuts! I feel like a dwarf, everyone around me (female and male!) is so much taller than me and basically I'm gonna look like a teen for the rest of my life (I'm a  bit of a Peter Pan syndrome person so I guess that could be good but it still bothers me). Like how do you even wear man clothing correctly when you are short like that? I'm also kind of fat so I have to wear wide clothes which means bigger clothes which proportionally means longer clothes and it's all really messy. I'd like to wear a proper suit at times but it just seems impossible. I'm planning on losing weight but I can't magically make myself taller. I'm 24 so it's not like I can keep growing xD. I do slouch but I feel like there's not much I can do abou it plus I'm not sure it would make that much of a difference. So what do you guys do? how do you deal with this?

Lots of rock stars are about that height.  Way more than you think. Stand up straight, wear taller shoes and spike up the top of the hair as tall as you can.  Go to the gym.  Look at Glenn Danzig!  Being athletic and strong can really put you over the edge if you are diminuitive.

Then strap on a guitar and stand on a stage. (Kidding, but it helps you look taller!) 

My twins father comes up to mid chest on me. I'm between 5'5" and 5'6". Short is subjective, especially in the minds eye.

Thank you both so much for answering! Jill F, I will definitely try all of those advices, although I really have trouble standing tall/straight, I have no idea why. Even sitting without bending my back feels super uncomfortable but I'll try to fix that  somehow and will definitely spike my head and try to exercize. ^_^ Again thank you both a  lot, LordKat I'm glad to hear there are other short guys out there, makes me feel better :) :D

I am 5'1". This is actually close to being a Little Person. But I deal with it with humor mainly. There really is nothing to do about it. A little hair gel will only help with an illusion of height anyway and standing straight will only make you as tall as you actually are. But humor makes me feel happier. You're not tall, you're vertically challenged. :)

--Jay

I'm not happy about it - never have been even before I realized I might be transgender. But I accept it. What else can you do? I have been thinking of investing some of those shoes that make you taller, though - even a 2 or 3 inch boost would make me feel better (I'm 5'3".)

I tried lifts. It was like trying to walk in high heels. I dumped them.

Quote from: LordKAT on November 08, 2013, 01:00:47 AM
I tried lifts. It was like trying to walk in high heels. I dumped them.

A Kat in heels? I've heard of a puss in boots, but really!

Height is one of the things we can't change so we find ways around it, but remember, you are as big as your personality. And that is what people notice!

And as Jill said go to the gym!  I as told the other day that I was so fortunate that I was genetically thin, I told her my genes were comprised of a good diet and six hours a week in the gym!!

I took the attitude of a having a new body and a new life, then I'm going to make the most of it.

QuoteA Kat in heels? I've heard of a puss in boots, but really!

Exactly, it looked and felt ridiculous! Even my tail got shy about that one. Never again.

Just to be accurate - YOU can get taller with surgery. I dont think its something I would do, but it is an option for some. Me? I wear lifts. I am not tooo short to begin with but an inch or two gives me some confidence.

Hmm, deal with it? I don't think one can. I just accept it because I have to, but that's it. I'm 5,1 too, I think (American measurements, argh!) and I live in the land of giants (the Netherlands, average guy is at least 6' here. Women and men are almost always taller than I am) so yeah....It's all relative. It feels like a double stab from nature, making me trans and on top of that, way shorter than even the average female. I've been wondering if just moving away to a country that doesn't have giants would help.

In any case, just know life is not all about size. Sure it makes me dysphoric a lot of times because in my eyes, I'm a big, strong guy. But we can't all be big strong guys. Focus on your other assets and do not dwell on the things that you can not change. I try to keep telling myself that too, and most of the time, it helps to feel better.

Quote from: Mr.X on November 08, 2013, 04:02:18 AM
Hmm, deal with it? I don't think one can. I just accept it because I have to, but that's it. I'm 5,1 too, I think (American measurements, argh!) and I live in the land of giants (the Netherlands, average guy is at least 6' here. Women and men are almost always taller than I am) so yeah....It's all relative. It feels like a double stab from nature, making me trans and on top of that, way shorter than even the average female. I've been wondering if just moving away to a country that doesn't have giants would help.

I've found that now that I pass (mostly) guys accept me as a guy. It might keep me from passing sometimes as my build is also small--small frame and so on. But once I pass I am accepted as a guy. One of my friends is small too. He does work out a LOT and it helps him as he now has big shoulder muscles, but for me I could never do it to that extent. I work out to be healthy. But whatever helps.

--Jay

I just found this:  ;)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fp6hs5J3.jpg&hash=8cbad5159d8b5533f927ac7b4ac19e261dd4a2d1)

Boots help.

I got a good pair of boots after years of sneakers only that give me about an inch plus a bit without even realizing how much they would help me feel better about my height. I'm 5'4" to 5'5" I think, though I haven't been measured in awhile.

Quote from: chuck on November 08, 2013, 02:57:46 AM
Me? I wear lifts. I am not tooo short to begin with but an inch or two gives me some confidence.

Honestly, I used to think that wearing lifts would make me feel like a silly faker and was more vain than I was willing to be on this particular issue...but now I am not so sure. The confidence increase I got from even the slight height increase wearing boots over sneakers gives makes me want to try a pair of lifts out at some point. With boots + another inch or so from lifts, I would feel pretty normal height wise.

I have never in my life wore a pair of high heels though (maybe once for half an hour or something), so it may be more annoying then it is worth. Lifts can't be great for your feet in the long term. Can you even drive easily with them in?

I also worry about just suddenly being taller randomly and having it noticed that I get way shorter without shoes, or having to take off shoes somewhere and the lifts just being in there for all to see. I wouldn't be ashamed of it per se, but it might actually make the whole height thing worse if I am constantly worrying about stuff like this - sorta the same reason I don't wear a packer, among other reasons.

keeping people like Charlie Day and Elijah Wood in mind helps - they are short and pull it off.

I'm barely scraping by 5', sometimes around 5'1.

How do I get by? I'm still young enough to hope that either I still have growing to do (unlikely), or I'll get T and still have some growing to do (also unlikely). Until the time passes where either of those things has happened or is confirmed to never happen, I don't have much anything I can do other than accept my stature.

Look around at similar threads - a lot of people point out that there are guys this short. I know quite a few either about my height, or only an inch or so above it; there are even a few I've seen who are shorter than me.

Like spacerace and others have said, boots help (mine give me another inch or so), and lifts help. Standing up straighter - I know, as lame as it sounds - does help, and it can build your self-esteem a bit (also from experience, as much as I doubted it).

I deal with it by strutting around like I'm a professional wrestler or MMA fighter thinking I could knock anyone out even from my height (even though that's FAR from the truth LOL).  I do try to look for short famous males or short fighters so I can look up to them.  I wish I was a lot taller and my height does bother me.  It has bothered me since middle school, especially in gym when I couldn't touch the basketball net but the other guys could.  Honestly, a lot of my dysphoria is there, but is shifted from to focusing on my weight, which is something that hopefuly can be corrected.  If I lost weight then I'm sure I'd feel much taller.

I'm 5'2" as well, which is shorter than even most females I know.  Whenever I find someone shorter than me I always notice.  Like some people have said, in my head I think I'm much taller than what I really am, and it's a stab in the dysphoria every time I realise that I'm not.  Although it's not as obvious as the sizes of other parts of my body, hands and feet for example, although it's all in proportion to my height.  Feet have to be the worst though, shoes never look right in sizes that small, the toe section is too short.

What do I do about it?  Try and forget how short I am.  In group pictures I try and mess around so you can't see my height compared to others, in a recent one taken after we had a paintballing trip I ended up leaping on a mate's back in the middle of the photograph when I was pushed forward so that I could be seen.  In our group prom photo I knelt down at the front.  When I came down here it took until I said my name for two people to realise who I was even though they'd been looking through photographs of me on facebook, I just appeared so much taller on there by my mannerisms when there was nothing to compare me to.

Thank you all so so much for answering, you are awesome! I don't even know where to start answering or whether I should answer you all individually by quoting. I never got the e-mails saying you had replied to this particular thread so I had no idea xD that's why I hadn't answered. I really liked what all of you said and I will definitely try to focus more on personality. It will probably still be hard, having to look up to talk to some people and stuff xD but as aleon515 said I'll try to take it with as much humor as possible. I'm open to try the idea of  lifts, although I'm not sure it would work since I mostly wear flip flops (I used to wear mostly snickers than even that somehow became too much work xD I live in the sun so I don't know), also I'm super clumsy in general and sensitive to this kind of changes. Someone mentioned surgery, how is that surgery called? just curious, I don't think I could get it since I'm totally afraid (it's kind  of a phobia actually) of surgeries, doctors, needles etc which is one of the reasons I might not be able to medically transition, let alone get taller, but it's good to know my options anyway :P Malachite I see we have a lot in commun. Anyway, thank you all, you are amazing and have been super helpful ^_^ I wish I could have answered as you wrote.

AlexanderC I know exactly what you mean. I have very small feet too (as in VERY small xD) it hasn't bothered me as much as my height, but it can sometimes be pretty annoying, everything is just so weird in me xD.

personally i've never been that bothered by it. i'm around 5'4 and a lot of cis dudes i know are around that height, so it makes me feel better about myself.
though i do tend to wear shoes that make me look a bit taller. haha.

I'll have to try that, then! I  might be wrong but 5'4 sounds so much better than 5'1 or 5'2 for some reason xD I'd feel better with that, would be totally happy with 5'5 or 5'6 xD

I'd be much happier with 5'8", but that boat has sailed.

I think we all want to be just a little bit taller, a little bit more muscle, a little bit more masculine.

*Hah* That's about the height I was hoping for back in elementary school. Boy, was I optimistic.

At least two of those things can be fixed even after one stops growing, so there's at least that to look forward to. The second you don't even have to wait to start working at (and, arguably, the third for certain features and being in league with building muscle).

I'm 5'6 so I guess I'm not too short but I always feel like I am compared to my little sister who's already taller than me and most men where I live are in the 5'10 to 6' range. I've always hated my height, I have a longer torso but my legs are short because my growth was stunted at a really early age. I'm painfully reminded that I could and should have been taller everytime I have to buy pants since even the ones labelled as "short" are too long on me sometimes. When I decided I wanted to transition, my height caused dysphoria that hit me really hard.

There are options out there if you're willing to sacrifice time, money and physical comfort. Leg lengthing surgery sounds extreme but in the past few years it's gotten pretty advanced and it's becoming a lot more popular. It's possible to gain anywhere from 2 to 6 inches from LL surgery. I would do it in a heartbeat if I had the money for it, I don't care about the pain or recovery time. I would be content at 5'9 or 5'10 which is around the height I would have been if my growth hadn't been stunted but it's awesome knowing that 6' is even a posibility.

That's how I deal with my short legs, by knowing that there are possibilities out there. Even if I never undergo something like LL surgery, it's good to know that there are options.

LordKat I couldn't have said it better, I think sometimes we want to be more masculine than most cis guys could ever even be xD.

Night Haven I was also hoping to get to at least 5'5 in elementary school, I guess I was too optimistic too xD. It's great to focuse  on what CAN be changed.

Contravene it's great to know there are options indeed! I  don't think I could ever end up actually undergoing surgery (I'm so afraid  of surgeries and have never gotten one yet which is why all of this is so hard for me because even though I'd love to get top surgery I don't think I'll ever dare actually doing it, I have so many phobias about medical things in general) but it is still great to know there are options in case I stop being afraid at some point. I will definitely research that surgery even if only for educational purposes. I would definitely do it if I wasn't such a chicken and  if I actually had money. By the way, I feel exactly like what you described most times.

I'm not that much taller than you. I'm 5'4" when rounding up (shh). I used to find myself insecure about my height, and often felt inferior to taller men. I still do sometimes; I won't lie about that. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it. Our genetics are our genetics, and the fact that we were placed in the wrong anatomy at birth doesn't help our cause either.

How to deal with it? There's a couple of ways. Losing weight, as you suggested, is one factor that can definitely help. The weight loss will help you conform your body into clothes a lot more efficiently, thus assisting in passing. Lifting some weights probably won't hurt either. Not to mention, the thinner somebody is, I'm pretty there is an illusion that makes them seem taller than they really are. I don't have any psychological or scientific proof of that statement, but from my own personal experience, a lot of people don't believe me when I tell them that I'm 5'4". They think I'm around 5'6" or 5'7" because I have a slim but athletic build. I also notice this within other people when I ask them what their true height is, and they almost always end up telling me that they're shorter than what I originally thought they were.

This issue is not only physical though, it is also mental. Focus on having confidence. If you walk around with your head held high, people will respect you regardless of how tall you are. This gives off a vibe that you take a lot of pride in yourself, and that is what is ultimately attractive. Confidence not only makes up for lack of height, but it also attracts an admiration and acceptance from others. Be proud and others will be proud in you as well.

Alexclusive that some great adivce! thanks a lot. I actually agree with your theory whether there's proof for it or not. I lost weight once and even though I didn't feel taller, everyone was surprised by my apparent "new height" xD, which was pretty nice. It's sooo hard for me to lose weight let alone keep it off though :(  but I will try. Since you mention working out I've been wanting to ask (and anyone can answer if you want, that would be nice) how does that work for guys who are not on T? I've read that you can't really build muscle without T (not enough at least) yet at times I see either pre-T guys or cis women who actually manage  to build quite a nice amount of muscle so I'm a bit confused in relation to how that works :O. I've never in my life been athletic nor have I seriously worked out, so I have no idea how my body works in that regard. I'm afraid that losing weight my make me look more feminine, but at the same time I feel that fat doesn't help either, especially in the butt and chest department (my chest dramatically shrunk in size when I lost weight). but then wouldn't it make my face look..."finer" or thinner?  Just throwing that out there xD

Quote from: em444 on November 08, 2013, 09:55:51 PM
Alexclusive that some great adivce! thanks a lot. I actually agree with your theory whether there's proof for it or not. I lost weight once and even though I didn't feel taller, everyone was surprised by my apparent "new height" xD, which was pretty nice. It's sooo hard for me to lose weight let alone keep it off though :(  but I will try. Since you mention working out I've been wanting to ask (and anyone can answer if you want, that would be nice) how does that work for guys who are not on T? I've read that you can't really build muscle without T (not enough at least) yet at times I see either pre-T guys or cis women who actually manage  to build quite a nice amount of muscle so I'm a bit confused in relation to how that works :O. I've never in my life been athletic nor have I seriously worked out, so I have no idea how my body works in that regard. I'm afraid that losing weight my make me look more feminine, but at the same time I feel that fat doesn't help either, especially in the butt and chest department (my chest dramatically shrunk in size when I lost weight). but then wouldn't it make my face look..."finer" or thinner?  Just throwing that out there xD

Anytime man.
As for your questions:

While not being on T does give quite a setback when it comes to building muscle, that doesn't mean that you can't build a significant amount. It may just take twice the amount of time, and a lot of harder work. When you look at female bodybuilders, for example, they spend countless hours hitting the weights. They literally work out like it's their job and that's why their body is extremely masculine looking. Do you have to dedicate ALL of your time and effort to fitness in order to look like that? In reality, yes. However, they take it to extremes in order to look good. You don't need to do that. You can look good with just a decent amount of time working out.

Again, genetics plays a role in how well one can build muscle, regardless if you're a man or woman, pre-T or on T, it's just how nature is.. sadly. That doesn't make it impossible though. With the right technique, training, eating right, and performing exercises that are specific to your goals, you will see nice results regardless if you are a beginner or an experienced lifter. If you have never seriously worked out before, you want to start out small and gradually build your way up to more advanced exercises. You will also probably need to do some experimenting on what works and doesn't work for you. There are plenty of body weight exercises that you can easily do at home such as push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups dips, etc to start off with. If you can only do a couple of push-ups, then start out with that. If you can only do 2, do 2 and try to work your way up each day. The next day try to do 3, then the next do 4, 5, 6 and so on. You may also want to consider investing some money into a pull-up bar. You can easily purchase one at a sporting goods store for about $30 bucks. After you've begun gradually working on body weight exercises and you feel comfortable with your workouts, maybe start looking into a gym membership so you have access to some equipment to perform more advanced workouts as you become more serious with your strength.

As for losing weight, I think the most important thing is that it will help decrease excess fat in feminine areas such as the chest, hips, thighs, and butt and those can be big factors when it comes to physically passing. I'm not entirely sure how it will effect your face, but I assume that depending on the amount of weight you have to lose will determine how much of that weight will be lost from your face. Perhaps maybe weight loss in your face will help make it appear more square or chiseled, thus making it appear more masculine. Just a food for thought.

Ultimately, you have to do what you feel is right for your body, happiness, and what you feel will help your passing game in the long run.

If you have any more questions, feel free to e-mail me or send me a PM.

wow Alexclusive you sure are knowledgeable about this subject, thank you so much for explaining everything so clearly, I will definitely go for the muscles then!

5'2" here (and sometimes I do wear boots that boost that an inch). But like alexclusive says, it's about confidence too. The general way you carry yourself has a lot to do with overall presence (not just physically how tall you are). Find things that boost your confidence and you may find that you worry less about being short.

There are regular guys who are under 5'5" ... plenty of them are famous people too. It's genetics more than it is gender really. Sure, there's "averages", but even the male average is only 5'9" I believe. Sometimes when I'm out I happen to notice quite a few guys who are around my height.

I wear lifts. It was annoying at first having to take them out whenever I changed into a new pair of shoes, but you get used to it.

A few months ago I said casually, "Well I'm only 5'5" to which a friend replied "Really? I thought you were taller. It doesn't feel like you're 5'5"." confidence is key!

I stand at about 5'5" 5'6" on a good day and im still seen as short. Boots do help with giving a little lift and can help with pant length so they dont look too long for you. There are alot of guys that are short. I used to work with a guy and he was 5'3" but he didnt let that bother him. Work out and get the stocky build that should help too. Other than that use humor.

Thank you so much guys, I'm glad to see there are so many of us who are not that tall and that it's not only me. The advices are great and I will definitely put them to practice  :D

Quote from: Mr.X on November 08, 2013, 04:02:18 AM
Hmm, deal with it? I don't think one can. I just accept it because I have to, but that's it. I'm 5,1 too, I think (American measurements, argh!) and I live in the land of giants (the Netherlands, average guy is at least 6' here. Women and men are almost always taller than I am) so yeah....It's all relative. It feels like a double stab from nature, making me trans and on top of that, way shorter than even the average female. I've been wondering if just moving away to a country that doesn't have giants would help.

I can't deal, its a huge part of my depression and dysphoria. I just try to accept that its something I can't change. That doesn't work, so I try to ignore it but its hard to ignore when I'm constantly reminded. I'm shorter than all of you, shorter than all men all women and most kids. Not a legal midget though but very short. I also feel like its a huge burden on top of being trans.
On top of that I'm also not skinny,  nature stabbed me with that one too, so finding short wide clothes is nearly impossible. I can't buy men's clothes I have to get boys shirts so I'm not drowning in them. Pants are a whole different story, all of them have to be folded, and I usually have to get womens skinny jeans to fit right, but they're still too long. All you guys taller than 5'2" have it good, especially if you have normal or skinny builds.

As I stated before, my twins father wasn't even 5'. He had no issues with buying clothes in the boy dept, and even joked that he got clothes cheaper and more variety to choose from. He wasn't exactly skinny either.

Some men are short, that is just the way it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryDOy3AosBw



thanks L.H.

Quote from: chuck on November 10, 2013, 12:19:29 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ryDOy3AosBw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>  (//http:////www.youtube.com/embed/ryDOy3AosBw"%20frameborder="0"%20allowfullscreen></iframe>)

clearly i have no idea how to imbed a video

I usually just copy and paste in the link right from the top of my browser and it usually just imbeds.

Use the button that says hyperlink, looks like a globe with a page in front of it.

Quote from: alexclusive on November 08, 2013, 10:37:06 PM
Anytime man.
As for your questions:

While not being on T does give quite a setback when it comes to building muscle, that doesn't mean that you can't build a significant amount. It may just take twice the amount of time, and a lot of harder work. When you look at female bodybuilders, for example, they spend countless hours hitting the weights. They literally work out like it's their job and that's why their body is extremely masculine looking. Do you have to dedicate ALL of your time and effort to fitness in order to look like that? In reality, yes. However, they take it to extremes in order to look good. You don't need to do that. You can look good with just a decent amount of time working out.

Nope. Female bodybuilders look masculine because they use steroids ( ie testosterone). It is possible to build some muscle without excess testosterone, but just to be realistic and not give false hope, you still need testosterone to achieve a female bodybuilder type body. Even competitors for natural bodybuilding contests often use steroids but cycle off before the urine test. 

Quote from: chuck on November 10, 2013, 01:23:00 AM
Nope. Female bodybuilders look masculine because they use steroids ( ie testosterone). It is possible to build some muscle without excess testosterone, but just to be realistic and not give false hope, you still need testosterone to achieve a female bodybuilder type body. Even competitors for natural bodybuilding contests often use steroids but cycle off before the urine test.

I disagree. It's your word against mine, but I personally know a female bodybuilder. She is a family friend of ours that I'm very close with, and I know for a fact that she does not use steroids or any form of testosterone or performance-enhancing drugs. She looks great, and her body fat is below 8% which is not too shabby, at all, for a woman. She often competes in competitions and does pretty well. She actually just recently competed in a local competition in NYC and made the top 3. I think she came in 2nd. I'm not sure, you can probably look her up. Her name is Swann Cardot. In all honesty, in some of her pictures, she looks like she's raging on 'roids, but she isn't because her voice is very female-sounding and she has not grown any facial hair compared to others like her who have witnessed testosterone-like changes by using performance-enhancing drugs. Don't get me wrong, some of these bodybuilders, male or female do use them. However, not all of them.

So, I mean, it's all matter of opinion, but I personally don't consider my statements as giving false hope, but more like if someone really wanted to achieve a certain look, it's not impossible if they put in the time and effort. Is it easy? No, it will take twice if not more times the work if you don't have certain hormones such as testosterone working in your favor. That's the suckish part. But you don't have to go as far as Swann or others do. Not even nearly. One can still achieve a very good look or a look just enough for them to help pass with the right diet and exercise. You don't have to dedicate your whole life to fitness, but hey.. if that's something you want to do, then by all means, good for you.   

Quote from: alexclusive on November 10, 2013, 10:44:53 AM
I disagree. It's your word against mine, but I personally know a female bodybuilder. She is a family friend of ours that I'm very close with, and I know for a fact that she does not use steroids or any form of testosterone or performance-enhancing drugs. She looks great, and her body fat is below 8% which is not too shabby, at all, for a woman. She often competes in competitions and does pretty well. She actually just recently competed in a local competition in NYC and made the top 3. I think she came in 2nd. I'm not sure, you can probably look her up. Her name is Swann Cardot. In all honesty, in some of her pictures, she looks like she's raging on 'roids, but she isn't because her voice is very female-sounding and she has not grown any facial hair compared to others like her who have witnessed testosterone-like changes by using performance-enhancing drugs. Don't get me wrong, some of these bodybuilders, male or female do use them. However, not all of them.

So, I mean, it's all matter of opinion, but I personally don't consider my statements as giving false hope, but more like if someone really wanted to achieve a certain look, it's not impossible if they put in the time and effort. Is it easy? No, it will take twice if not more times the work if you don't have certain hormones such as testosterone working in your favor. That's the suckish part. But you don't have to go as far as Swann or others do. Not even nearly. One can still achieve a very good look or a look just enough for them to help pass with the right diet and exercise. You don't have to dedicate your whole life to fitness, but hey.. if that's something you want to do, then by all means, good for you.

I wouldn't consider her a bodybuilder at all, not by a long shot. That's a fitness model physique. That's hard work and dedication but that's an extremely realistic physique for a woman to achieve if she lived in the gym. I'd also have to challenge your statement that her bodyfat is below 8%, a woman with that low of a bodyfat percentage would fall more into the bodybuiler range but they'd have to be starving themselves. She looks more in the 10-14% range, which would be appropriate.

Lisa Cross, Iris Kyle, and  Alina Popa are some female bodybuilders and they have physiques that aren't possible without a steroid cycle and a strict 6 month diet.

Quote from: alexclusive on November 10, 2013, 10:44:53 AM
I disagree. It's your word against mine, but I personally know a female bodybuilder. She is a family friend of ours that I'm very close with, and I know for a fact that she does not use steroids or any form of testosterone or performance-enhancing drugs. She looks great, and her body fat is below 8% which is not too shabby, at all, for a woman. She often competes in competitions and does pretty well. She actually just recently competed in a local competition in NYC and made the top 3. I think she came in 2nd. I'm not sure, you can probably look her up. Her name is Swann Cardot. In all honesty, in some of her pictures, she looks like she's raging on 'roids, but she isn't because her voice is very female-sounding and she has not grown any facial hair compared to others like her who have witnessed testosterone-like changes by using performance-enhancing drugs. Don't get me wrong, some of these bodybuilders, male or female do use them. However, not all of them.

So, I mean, it's all matter of opinion, but I personally don't consider my statements as giving false hope, but more like if someone really wanted to achieve a certain look, it's not impossible if they put in the time and effort. Is it easy? No, it will take twice if not more times the work if you don't have certain hormones such as testosterone working in your favor. That's the suckish part. But you don't have to go as far as Swann or others do. Not even nearly. One can still achieve a very good look or a look just enough for them to help pass with the right diet and exercise. You don't have to dedicate your whole life to fitness, but hey.. if that's something you want to do, then by all means, good for you.

swann cardot is a figure competitor. Big difference between her and a female bodyuilder. Not that she doesnt run a cycle here and  there. It is extremely rare that you will ever hear a bodybuilder admit to steroid use. Even though EVERYONE at pro level uses. Yes, I am 100 percent comfortable saying that. It is simply an accepted fact. I find it odd that it's even a question. Since the general public considers steroids "cheating" most bodybuilders will not discuss their cycles with anyone besides other bodybuilders. So I am not sure if you are saying that someone can achieve bodybuilder like status without testosterone or not. No, a natty competitor will NEVER look like coleman, and a pre -T guy will never look like a competitor who claims to be natty.

BUT if you are saying that building some muscle can help with passing, than yes i agree. If you are saying that a pre T guy can look like a pro competitive bodyuilder (male or female) then I disagree. And youre right, it's your word against mine. However, I have been involved with the bodybuilding community for the past 7 years. If you want to know more, there are plenty of websites and forums that get behind the scenes. Again, I just think its important to be realistic.

Quote from: ttim0324 on November 10, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
I wouldn't consider her a bodybuilder at all, not by a long shot. That's a fitness model physique. That's hard work and dedication but that's an extremely realistic physique for a woman to achieve if she lived in the gym. I'd also have to challenge your statement that her bodyfat is below 8%, a woman with that low of a bodyfat percentage would fall more into the bodybuiler range but they'd have to be starving themselves. She looks more in the 10-14% range, which would be appropriate.

Lisa Cross, Iris Kyle, and  Alina Popa are some female bodybuilders and they have physiques that aren't possible without a steroid cycle and a strict 6 month diet.

Quote from: chuck on November 10, 2013, 12:18:51 PM
swann cardot is a figure competitor. Big difference between her and a female bodyuilder. Not that she doesnt run a cycle here and  there. It is extremely rare that you will ever hear a bodybuilder admit to steroid use. Even though EVERYONE at pro level uses. Yes, I am 100 percent comfortable saying that. It is simply an accepted fact. I find it odd that it's even a question. Since the general public considers steroids "cheating" most bodybuilders will not discuss their cycles with anyone besides other bodybuilders. So I am not sure if you are saying that someone can achieve bodybuilder like status without testosterone or not. No, a natty competitor will NEVER look like coleman, and a pre -T guy will never look like a competitor who claims to be natty.

BUT if you are saying that building some muscle can help with passing, than yes i agree. If you are saying that a pre T guy can look like a pro competitive bodyuilder (male or female) then I disagree. And youre right, it's your word against mine. However, I have been involved with the bodybuilding community for the past 7 years. If you want to know more, there are plenty of websites and forums that get behind the scenes. Again, I just think its important to be realistic.

You're both entitled to what you think and believe.. that's fine. I respect that, however, I stand my ground with my arguments. I didn't state in any way shape or form that if you spend x amount of time at the gym or if you do this or that, that you will look like a bodybuilder. However, I did say, as quoted (referring to female bodybuilders) that "they take it to extremes in order to look good." Vague statement? Yeah, but the implementation of it includes the use of any form of testosterone or steroids. The only reason that I brought up female bodybuilders is because the original poster had asked about the fact that he sees cis-women that can or have built a decent amount of muscle. I automatically jumped to the analogy of female bodybuilders, as that is what I think of when I think of women who have the motive of becoming jacked. I mean realistically, unless they're in the bodybuilding industry which most likely includes the use of steroids, most women aren't at the gym looking to bulk up and due to their body composition, they won't see as great results.

Doesn't mean the OP shouldn't try though. When I was pre-T, I spent a lot of time working out because I wanted to see what I could achieve alone without testosterone. I even pushed back my first shot date because I wanted more time. There was also other reasons on why I pushed it back; I'm a high school wrestler and at the time I was looking to wrestle at a certain weight class and knew that T would make me gain weight and I would not have been able to make that specific weight class for that season, so I waited until the entire season was over to begin. I tried my best, and knew I would have had more success on the mat when it comes to strength if I had just started earlier, but I tested my potential and really wanted to see how strong and lean I could get without the hormones first. Before I decided to do that, I was trying to bulk up and it took me much longer to see results, to the point where I often got discouraged. But you just have to keep going at it and be patient. It's hard to get big pre-T, but overall the exercise alone made me feel a lot better about myself. I guess that's where I meant to get at in my other post.

I  know of women who have gained substantial muscle mass with no supplements or steroid use. NOt any kind of pro level. But I don't really know if they have high natural T levels. I'm guessing so.

--Jay

Quote from: ttim0324 on November 10, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
I wouldn't consider her a bodybuilder at all, not by a long shot. That's a fitness model physique. That's hard work and dedication but that's an extremely realistic physique for a woman to achieve if she lived in the gym. I'd also have to challenge your statement that her bodyfat is below 8%, a woman with that low of a bodyfat percentage would fall more into the bodybuiler range but they'd have to be starving themselves. She looks more in the 10-14% range, which would be appropriate.

Lisa Cross, Iris Kyle, and  Alina Popa are some female bodybuilders and they have physiques that aren't possible without a steroid cycle and a strict 6 month diet.

I have to disagree on the bodyfat part there, I'm at 15% bodyfat, and I look no where near as good as she does.

Quote from: AlexanderC on November 10, 2013, 05:01:18 PM
I have to disagree on the bodyfat part there, I'm at 15% bodyfat, and I look no where near as good as she does.

Less than 10% bodyfat for a woman is moving into dangerous territory. Most female bodybuilders compete at that,around 5-8 usually, but figure competitors (which she is) usually go for 10% and over. Theres a few pictures where she looks like she might be that low, but definitely not during off season and definitely not all the time.

As for you being at 15% and not looking that good, I'd say that's to be expected. Unless you're busting your ass in the gym for years you're not gonna look like that. For example: a casual gym goer at 5% bodyfat wouldn't look half as good as say, Flex Lewis, at 15% bodyfat during off season.

Quote from: aleon515 on November 10, 2013, 03:18:47 PM
I  know of women who have gained substantial muscle mass with no supplements or steroid use. NOt any kind of pro level. But I don't really know if they have high natural T levels. I'm guessing so.

--Jay

I was pretty much always like that pre-T. I did ultimately turn out to have a TT around 69.5 ng/dL which was not a whole lot but enough for the increased mass to a point. But I also had a fasting serum Insulin about 16 mu/L; when its higher than normal it has anabolic effects not to mention a slew of other and far less desirable ones (this had actually spiked to the dangerous territory of 24 mu/L [fasting] just a while before T. I was a real mess at that point). I took weights in high school and had one of my female teachers squeeze my bicep and say "I want those!" lol. There were two cisgirls in that class with me and for a while it really confused me as to how they could struggle so much with just a 45lb barbell. I'd thought they were acting it up (my logic was if I could do it and considerably more they surely could too?) but they weren't. They were really petite though, so maybe that was a lot of it. Then again, I also wondered just why they would have elected for that class if they really weren't the type inclined for that workout (must have been trying to land boyfriends?). I kept up just fine to my cismale peers in that class. I can't be sure but I think I was the only one that could touch 600lb leg-press there. 135 over-head and bench wasn't too shabby either and 200lb dead lift was the average for cismale peers also.

I expect to be able to do a lot more now on T, despite the lack of my sickeningly too much Insulin which is no longer a problem for me directly thanks to T. I'll find out soon enough.

Quote from: Magnus on November 10, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
I was pretty much always like that pre-T. I did ultimately turn out to have a TT around 69.5 ng/dL which was not a whole lot but enough for the increased mass to a point. But I also had a fasting serum Insulin about 16 mu/L; when its higher than normal it has anabolic effects not to mention a slew of other and far less desirable ones (this had actually spiked to the dangerous territory of 24 mu/L [fasting] just a while before T. I was a real mess at that point). I took weights in high school and had one of my female teachers squeeze my bicep and say "I want those!" lol. There were two cisgirls in that class with me and for a while it really confused me as to how they could struggle so much with just a 45lb barbell.

I'd guess the insulin is kind of a dulling factor, but obviously didn't hurt (in this respect much). This friend of mine is kind of impressive. Short but strong. I am pretty sure she's much stronger than most cismales and does handywork as a second income. I'm thinking of strength like a bell curve and there are the strongest males and most kind of go in the center of the curve. Women's strength is in curve too, but it's a different curve. But the strongest females will be stronger than the mid range of males but not as strong (I mean upper body strength-- we know other kinds of strength isn't strictly like that) as the strongest males.

--Jay


--Jay

I'm about 5'4. I'm short and skinny. I'd love to be 5'7, but there's nothing I can do since I'm an adult.
So, I try to look at cool guys with same height as me, for ex: Michael J. Fox.

Or Hyde from Laruku, who's 1,57m and he looks so nice and young:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1245.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg598%2Fninoonin123%2Fsusan%2Fhyde.jpg&hash=f34e704a2690873ca9c6d03f81e27e222a431791)


Also, I love to check this tumblr: http://->-bleeped-<-yeahshortguys.tumblr.com/

thank you all for your input, very interesting conversation. I guess the only way for me to know how muscled I can get is by trying to workout...ouch xD

1234 I will definitely check that tumblr out! :D thanks a lot