Community Conversation => Transsexual talk => Male to female transsexual talk (MTF) => Topic started by: Dana88 on November 18, 2013, 02:07:35 PM Return to Full Version

Title: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Dana88 on November 18, 2013, 02:07:35 PM
Warning, this is a looong post and secondly, I talk about sex a lot in this thread and my discomfort with sex as a man and desire to have sex as a woman. Before I get pounced on and told "if you just want to be a woman just for the sex then you shouldn't transition" please understand that I am speaking of just one aspect of the manifestation of my gender dysphoria. Many others are present, but this is the one that I wanted to talk about in this thread and I do not want to transition just because of sex.

I am curious if anyone else has gone through this: I've read from a lot of girls on here that went through a sexuality change while on HRT that they think perhaps they were always attracted to men and that their gender identity and sexuality got conflated because their envy of women's bodies registered as sexual attraction. Now I am by no means stating this is the case for everyone who has experienced a sexual attraction change but this is definitely something that I've heard tossed around a bit. I'm curious if anyone else other than me has had sorta the reverse conflation of GID and sexual orientation. Now I'm not talking about realizing you're attracted to women while transitioning, I'm talking about sexual attraction to men clouding your GID rather than GID clouding your sexual attraction.

I have always been attracted to men. I love everything about them. There's nothing I like better than lying in a man's muscular arms and running my fingers through his chest hair ... And maybe down a little further :-P. AAAANNNYYWAAAYYY O:-), I came out as gay when I was only 12. I knew then I was attracted to men and had zero interest in women sexually. At that point I didn't know what trans was or that changing your sex was even possible. I just associated all of my gender issues with being gay and assumed every gay man felt that way. Even at that point whenever I would fantasize about guys I would always fantasize that I was a woman with them. This was a continuation of cross-gender feelings that had been present since I was a child, but again conflated all that with being gay. Of course when I discovered that gay men actually like being men, combined with discovering that trans was a thing, sent me on a mental journey that has eventually led me to transition (my appointment to get bloodwork to get started on HRT is now in only two and a half weeks :-D). In any case, the aforementioned discovery happened at the age of sixteen and from the moment that I knew I COULD become a woman I would flirt with transitioning and then go into denial mode.

When I got to college and started to date as a gay man my dysphoria REALLY started to rear its ugly head. I went through the same cycle every time I had a boyfriend. In the beginning my dysphoria would disappear and I would just be happy being with him. Then it would slowly creep back in until it would get unbearable. I would especially have a ton if hangups about sex because nothing felt right. I have never "topped" because I have no desire and never have had any desire to use my penis for penetration... Or to have a penis at all... That part of my body has always been a HUGE part of my dysphoria with memories going back to when I was a small child and I cannot WAIT to eventually get rid of it... However even being the "bottom" would be an extremely distressing experience for me because having sex with a man as a man felt completely wrong. I'd be having sex, and in my head would be freaking out, wanting him to touch my breasts, or penetrate me vaginally, or just generally treat me as a woman in bed, which was impossible given my current anatomy. Then the dysphoria would spread to romantic interaction in all parts of our relationship. I would start to tell myself, okay, if this relationship doesn't work out then as soon as we break up I'm gonna pursue transitioning. Then I would inevitably freak out and our relationship would implode. Then perhaps even more inevitably I would go into denial and refuse to acknowledge that my dysphoria was real and then I wouldn't pursue transition.

However, as I'm sure most of us experienced, while the discovery that transition is possible thrust a door wide open it also launched a whole slew of coping mechanisms and denials. One of them was a continuance of the conflation of sexual orientation with gender identity. Being attracted to men I would sometimes look at a guy and want his body... And because of this I would go, 'well I can't be trans because I want to have that body.' Though when I would think in real terms about being in possession of a body that big, muscular and masculine (I'm on the tall side for a woman at 5'10" but my body is a pretty average build, and I'm slopey shouldered and wide hipped for a guy) I would be utterly mortified at the thought of trading in my slightly androgynous body shape for a real manly body. It would be extremely triggering because when I would think about having that kind of body I would start to freak out. Then on the flip side when I would see a beautiful woman I would think about her body and be totally turned off, but when I would think about being a woman that looked like that I would get deeply jealous and wish that I had what she had physically. However the initial reaction based off of where my sexual attraction lay would be enough typically for me to go, well I can't be trans because of x, y, and z. Then I would once again pursue men romantically as a gay man.

This cycle happened about three times with different boyfriends. This eventually led me to become largely celibate and just 'focus on my career' for the past six years (19-25). Then that became my coping mechanism because if I just focused on work then I could distract myself from my dysphoria. Eventually that coping mechanism imploded too forcing me to finally confront, accept, and deal with my gender dysphoria over the last two years finally leading me to HRT. And in terms of that old mechanism of denial eventually I realized I didn't want to HAVE that male body that I was attracted to, I just wanted to have him in bed with me :-P. I'm curious if any of the other women on this board who have always been attracted to men went through this same kind of denial/coping mechanism conflating sexual attraction with gender identity?
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Sammy on November 18, 2013, 02:22:15 PM
Well, this only proves that each transsexual individual has her/his own story ;). I can relate to a lot of what You said, except replace gay with hetero and being attracted/admired? towards women, but having first fantasies about men while being in a female body.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Joanna Dark on November 18, 2013, 02:40:12 PM
I can def see where you are coming from but I knew what trans was from n early age and knew what I was. I tried not to add being gay to that list so I dated women, very masculine women. They all invariably left me because I'm too girly. But the only way to have sex with them was too imagine they were men and I was a woman which led to as my one GF put it "gentle sex." I don't think I have ever once thought of penetrating someone. But now that I have been with a man there is no going back. Love it!!!!
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: evecrook on November 18, 2013, 02:54:53 PM
I love men ,but I've never wanted to exchange bodies. I also have extreme genital dysphoria  .
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 08:29:20 PM
Unfortunately the bulk of my relationships and sexual interactions were while I was repressing and trying to be a guy. I'm not sure if it's biological, mental, or what but I've always had erectile dysfunction. I didn't get too hard usually and it never lasted long. However I never considered myself gay and my attraction to men wasn't realized until later, so I wondered what was wrong with me. I'd try to distract from it by being pretty good at cunnilingus, but since I wasn't dating lesbians, it just wasn't enough and so the relationship would inevitably collapse. What I didn't know then was that I simply didn't have a male sex drive and the desire to penetrate. And I liked being penetrated but never attributed it to either sexual orientation or gender identity. Glad I figured things out! I now realize I just have a 'bisexual female' sex drive; I'm attracted to straight men and gay women (preferably at the same time! xD ).
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Cosi555 on November 18, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
Quote from: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 08:29:20 PM
Unfortunately the bulk of my relationships and sI xual interactions were while I was repressing and trying to be a guy. I'm not sure if it's biological, mental, or what but I've always had erectile dysfunction. I didn't get too hard usually and it never lasted long. However I never considered myself gay and my attraction to men wasn't realized until later, so I wondered what was wrong with me. I'd try to distract from it by being pretty good at cunnilingus, but since I wasn't dating lesbians, it just wasn't enough and so the relationship would inevitably collapse. What I didn't know then was that I simply didn't have a male sex drive and the desire to penetrate. And I liked being penetrated but never attributed it to either sexual orientation or gender identity. Glad I figured things out! I now realize I just have a 'bisexual female' sex drive; I'm attracted to straight men and gay women (preferably at the same time! xD ).


This sounds exactly like my life.
There is just so much pressure from society, as a guy, to be a dominant force in the bedroom and if you can't "go the distance" then it is quite shameful and embarrassing.
I could have saved myself years of torture and expensive medical tests if I had realised I was suppressing who I am and that i have the mindset and sex drive of a woman
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Dana88 on November 18, 2013, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: evecrook on November 18, 2013, 02:54:53 PM
I love men ,but I've never wanted to exchange bodies. I also have extreme genital dysphoria  .

evecrook, I wouldn't say I wanted to exchange bodies. It's weird to explain. My thought process would kinda go:

"Oh he's super hot."
"I'm sure he must get a lot of super hot guys."
"If I looked like that I could get super hot guys too."
"I should go back to the gym."

**thinksaboutitforasecond**
**thinksaboutactuallybeingthatmanly**

"ew, I don't what that at all."

**thinksaboutwantingtobeawoman**
**pushesthatthoughtaside**

Then I would take those first three thoughts and go, well I can't be trans, cause for a brief second I wanted to look like him... Ignoring what that feeling was based in and that fact that it was super fleeting.

Quote from: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 08:29:20 PM
Unfortunately the bulk of my relationships and sexual interactions were while I was repressing and trying to be a guy. I'm not sure if it's biological, mental, or what but I've always had erectile dysfunction. I didn't get too hard usually and it never lasted long. However I never considered myself gay and my attraction to men wasn't realized until later, so I wondered what was wrong with me. I'd try to distract from it by being pretty good at cunnilingus, but since I wasn't dating lesbians, it just wasn't enough and so the relationship would inevitably collapse. What I didn't know then was that I simply didn't have a male sex drive and the desire to penetrate. And I liked being penetrated but never attributed it to either sexual orientation or gender identity. Glad I figured things out! I now realize I just have a 'bisexual female' sex drive; I'm attracted to straight men and gay women (preferably at the same time! xD ).

Yes! Definitely relate to the erectile dysfunction haha. Part of my six year celibacy was that I completely stopped being able to achieve an erection when with another guy, which got real embarrassing real fast when he was at full attention. It was a lot of 'oh it's fine, lemme just get you off' and then me scurrying off to the bathroom when he was asleep to take care of myself. Even by myself I really only get semi-erect. I'm sure this has to do with multiple issues. Number one is that I so often spent so much time trying to suppress my erections because I hated them so I think that subconsciously continues. Also I got to a point that the only way that I could masturbate without it being super dysphoria triggering (about to be REAL graphic NSFW) was to push my penis up inside myself and then use the vibrating shower head  :-X. Keeping everything clamped down like that while getting aroused kinda stops an erection from happening... So by extension I think my brain stopped associating arousal with erection? I think? Maybe? In any case, I cannot WAIT for HRT to shut all that down for good.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 11:43:34 PM
Quote from: BecomingDev88 on November 18, 2013, 10:50:52 PM
Yes! Definitely relate to the erectile dysfunction haha. Part of my six year celibacy was that I completely stopped being able to achieve an erection when with another guy, which got real embarrassing real fast when he was at full attention. It was a lot of 'oh it's fine, lemme just get you off' and then me scurrying off to the bathroom when he was asleep to take care of myself. Even by myself I really only get semi-erect. I'm sure this has to do with multiple issues. Number one is that I so often spent so much time trying to suppress my erections because I hated them so I think that subconsciously continues. Also I got to a point that the only way that I could masturbate without it being super dysphoria triggering (about to be REAL graphic NSFW) was to push my penis up inside myself and then use the vibrating shower head  :-X. Keeping everything clamped down like that while getting aroused kinda stops an erection from happening... So by extension I think my brain stopped associating arousal with erection? I think? Maybe? In any case, I cannot WAIT for HRT to shut all that down for good.

Well, I don't hate my genitals or anything. Having a penis can be annoying, and a vagina would be more desirable, but I've never had trouble masturbating... a lot. But even so, I rarely got fully erect, and whether fully or semi erect it didn't last long. I use past tense because I don't even hardly masturbate anymore. HRT has murderized my libido as I knew it, lol. Nice to be able to think though! I do get aroused occasionally though, but it's way different. I used to respond well to visual and physical stimulation, but now it's all fantasies, and my arousal doesn't translate to my penis much anymore.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Dana88 on November 19, 2013, 12:03:39 AM
Quote from: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 11:43:34 PM
Well, I don't hate my genitals or anything. Having a penis can be annoying, and a vagina would be more desirable, but I've never had trouble masturbating... a lot. But even so, I rarely got fully erect, and whether fully or semi erect it didn't last long. I use past tense because I don't even hardly masturbate anymore. HRT has murderized my libido as I knew it, lol. Nice to be able to think though! I do get aroused occasionally though, but it's way different. I used to respond well to visual and physical stimulation, but now it's all fantasies, and my arousal doesn't translate to my penis much anymore.

Again, example of how all of us are different and there is no magic concoction that signifies that someone has GID or should or shouldn't transition!  :) Yeah for me genital dysphoria has always been majorly bad. Even when I was a little kid, before I even knew it was possible to do anything about it, I had clear issues with it. I remember when I was a little kid I used to push it up inside me and and fantasize that if I did that long enough it would somehow disappear and become a vagina. As I got a little older, like 8 or 9, I remember after realizing that the magical disappearance act wasn't going to happen I sat there in the bathroom with a pair of scissors seriously considering cutting it off (while thinking if I did it somehow magically a vagina would appear instead). And yet somehow I convinced myself that I wasn't trans till about two years ago... Le sigh. **shakesheadateightyearoldself**.

But yeah, as to that, I have a girlfriend who's trans. I've known her since I was in middle school so I knew her pre-transition. In any case, even before her transition, she was way more feminine than I am currently also pre-transition (now she has been transitioning for the past two years). She cross dressed to school every day, she wore makeup every day, and when she came out as trans and told people she was transitioning it got a major "ummm duh?" from everyone. Yet she has no genital dysphoria and plans on keeping her male genitals. For me, while I am definitely more masculine than she was pre-transition, I absolutely definitely am going to need SRS as my currently male genitals are a MAJOR source of dysphoria. Though who knows how masculine or feminine my gender expression will be once I am really in the throes of transition. But the point is that for her, while her gender expression pre-transition was certainly far more feminine than my own, her male genitals for her don't feel at odds with her female gender identity. Just goes to show that gender identity and expression, like sexuality, is all on a spectrum.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Ashey on November 19, 2013, 12:28:04 AM
I can also relate to what you said about looking at men and wanting to be like them at first. I was actually the same way through my teens. I found some guys attractive but I didn't think I was attracted to them, I just wanted to look like them. This was when I was repressing. But I have a few differences. With me, I'm also attracted to women, and that's where it gets a bit more confusing for me, because I often simultaneously find women attractive, arousing, AND I want to look like them lol. With men now, it's strictly attraction (unless I'm in a man-loathing mood at the moment lol). When I came out as bisexual, most of this made much more sense. I admitted that when I thought a guy looked attractive it was because I thought he was hawt! xD Now, I'm just pansexual (or omnisexual, take your pick on the terminology). I find men, women, transsexuals, futanari, and more attractive, so that might play a part in how I can be mostly at ease with still having a penis, if that makes any sense. I find penises attractive, even on women, and though I don't think mine is that great looking, I guess I have a certain tolerance for it. And pre-HRT I even sometimes found the scent of my own genitalia to be a bit arousing.. >.> If I had the money, I would certainly opt for SRS, but if I had the ability to have both a vagina and a (better looking, better functioning) penis then I'd strongly consider it. I really think that's more to do with sex than my gender identity though.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Sammy on November 19, 2013, 01:33:35 AM
Quote from: BecomingDev88 on November 18, 2013, 10:50:52 PM
**thinksaboutwantingtobeawoman**
**pushesthatthoughtaside**

Priceless :)
When I was teen I never had a problem with erections :P - my only issue was that I could not figure out, what the hell I was supposed to do with all that stuff going down there. Seriously, I just had totally no idea  ???.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Miyuki on November 19, 2013, 02:35:40 AM
Quote from: Ashey on November 18, 2013, 11:43:34 PM
Well, I don't hate my genitals or anything. Having a penis can be annoying, and a vagina would be more desirable, but I've never had trouble masturbating... a lot. But even so, I rarely got fully erect, and whether fully or semi erect it didn't last long. I use past tense because I don't even hardly masturbate anymore. HRT has murderized my libido as I knew it, lol. Nice to be able to think though! I do get aroused occasionally though, but it's way different. I used to respond well to visual and physical stimulation, but now it's all fantasies, and my arousal doesn't translate to my penis much anymore.

I'm actually the same way. I don't like having a penis, it definitely wouldn't have been my first choice, but as far as things that trigger my dysphoria are concerned, it's toward the bottom of the list.

Sexually speaking, my situation was a little different from the other people posting here. In theory, I started out as a heterosexual male. That is to say, I was interested in girls, and not interested in boys. I say in theory, because if you actually had ever put a real girl in front of me, and told me to have sex with her, I would have had no idea what to do (other than the obvious, which seemed really awkward and weird). If I was ever looking at pictures of naked girls, I would never look at anything with actual sex involved, because it just didn't interest me. The only exception was gender bending stuff, which had stories about guys that had turned into girls. In those cases for some reason, depictions of sex were a lot more interesting. I would also look at futanari a lot (look it up), because for some reason, the idea of a girl with a penis seemed a lot more interesting than a regular girl. But you know, it's not gay, right, because she still has a vagina. Right? Eventually it got to the point where I had quit looking at anything that wasn't futanari or gender bending in nature. And yet, it was still difficult for me to picture myself in any sort of a sexual relationship with a man. I think it was just that I very badly wanted there to be a girl in the picture somehow, and it still wasn't occurring to me that the girl in that picture was supposed to be me. ;) So yea, I've never been in an actual physical relationship with another human being, and I'm still not entirely sure where I stand in terms of sexual orientation. All I know is, everything sexual in nature just makes a lot more sense when I don't have to picture myself as being male.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: sam79 on November 19, 2013, 03:37:14 AM
This is an interesting topic, and sexuality is something I'm still working through. The previous male libido I had was insatiable... I hated it so much and tried to stop it in various ways. Now that it's finally dead and gone, I'm having to adjust to the new way attraction and libido works, although am not likely to go too far with it until after SRS on account of the thing down below which repulses me to no end.

It was interesting growing up. I didn't develop any sexual drive, not a shred, until late in my teens... I put that down to the massive social anxiety, and confusion with gender identity. When I did develop something resembling sexuality, I recall not being sure about which way it went. It was definitely a case of "I have to like girls if I'm a boy" though... And I was terrified of not being normal, so any interest in boys would have been repressed deeper than my gender identity stuff. I do have a fuzzy memory or two of young times when I couldn't help but look at the odd guy though.

Now, I seem to find both genders attractive in different ways. The concept of being with a man is very appealing to me, and the odd hot guy does get my attention in a 'did the temperature just rise in here' kind of way. With girls though it's very different. It's something else, not really physical. But when it's there, it grabs my attention with both hands and can cause my heart to skip a beat. It's rarely straight girls either... I had experienced something vaguely similar many years ago with some other gay women, but everything was cloudy back then. So, short answer, I might actually be bi. Or perhaps I've just not worked it out yet.

Any other girls not sure in similar situations?
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: evecrook on November 19, 2013, 08:35:01 AM
when I was in grade school I had this recurring dream of my genitals always falling off. The dreams stopped after high school, but mentally it never stopped.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: KirstenR on November 19, 2013, 09:32:18 PM
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 18, 2013, 02:22:15 PM
Well, this only proves that each transsexual individual has her/his own story ;). I can relate to a lot of what You said, except replace gay with hetero and being attracted/admired? towards women, but having first fantasies about men while being in a female body.
I feel the same way. Been lurking for a long time, tried to make it go away, it does for a little while and then comes back. I wonder why I can feel both ways, it's just frustrating
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Sammy on November 20, 2013, 09:42:43 AM
Quote from: KirstenR on November 19, 2013, 09:32:18 PM
I feel the same way. Been lurking for a long time, tried to make it go away, it does for a little while and then comes back. I wonder why I can feel both ways, it's just frustrating

Because everything in You is frustrated. A recent thought occured with me that when we are kids, pre- and early-teens - we are the most true to ourselves. Our bodies and minds (brain?), although are not in the same line, but we get to experience the life as our mind tells us. There are instincts deep within us (nature, not nurture), which surface from time to time and makes everybody else (but not us) wonder - why she or he did this? She or he is not supposed to do that because that is not what other boys and girls do. Whereas, we do not wonder - for us it it natural way of things.
Then, the puberty starts and hormones (body) start to take over. Our body tells us one thing (for example, You need to masturbate) whereas our brain does not understand why would I need that and what and how I am supposed to accomplish it. Oh, lets turn to my instincts then... Hmm... something is not working... Am I doing something wrong? And then body tells - It is supposed to be like that and I should feel this! Brain – I am doing this the way I feel is right and I have no idea why itis not working. Maybe it is Your problem, body?

The same goes about gender attraction... It is very natural for a female to be attracted towards males (and, yes, I remember about lesbians, but please do not burn me at the stake  - at least for now). So, when brain is involved – which is the world of our derams and fantasies – it naturally occurs that there are boys/guys and because we are free in our derams – we ourselves are girls. Then... the hormones enter the play and we all know how T works, by building up libido, aggression, confusion... and yeah, our bodies just need something soft and delicate... Maybe that is this admiration thing and we are never attracted, but just admired... I dunno.. I never dated in my teens, but I wanted to be in the company of girls and I got weird feelings downstairs...  It is a pity, I never had a diary because now, most of my guy-ish identity pre-HRT seems to be a vague and shrouded memory and there are things which used to be natural, but which I cannot replicate anymore. It would be interesting to re-read his thoughts, to see his point of view, although I am afraid they would have freaked me out, probably ;).
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Dana88 on November 20, 2013, 10:01:29 AM
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 20, 2013, 09:42:43 AM
Because everything in You is frustrated. A recent thought occured with me that when we are kids, pre- and early-teens - we are the most true to ourselves. Our bodies and minds (brain?), although are not in the same line, but we get to experience the life as our mind tells us. There are instincts deep within us (nature, not nurture), which surface from time to time and makes everybody else (but not us) wonder - why she or he did this? She or he is not supposed to do that because that is not what other boys and girls do. Whereas, we do not wonder - for us it it natural way of things.

Yep! I still remember when I was little, must have been seven or eight, my mom was having a potluck dinner at our house. Her friend was wearing a sleeveless dress and she lifted up her arms to put her hair up and I saw she had a little bit of stubble there (if you're gonna wear a sleeveless dress you should probably make sure you're good and shaved) :-P. I remember being confused because till then I thought women were just naturally hairless. So I asked my mom about it and she explained how girls shave their legs and under their arms. From then on till I got a little older and gender lines became more clear, whenever I took a shower (as a seven or eight year old boy who was pretty hairless to begin with) I would take my mom's razor and shave my legs and armpits because that's what girls did and I was a girl despite what people told me and that thing in between my legs. It was only as I got older and realized that I was not going to magically turn into a girl and male socialization really kicked in that I realized that was "wrong" and stopped doing it, or when I did made a huge effort to hide it.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Sammy on November 20, 2013, 11:15:47 AM
Quote from: BecomingDev88 on November 20, 2013, 10:01:29 AM
Yep! I still remember when I was little, must have been seven or eight, my mom was having a potluck dinner at our house. Her friend was wearing a sleeveless dress and she lifted up her arms to put her hair up and I saw she had a little bit of stubble there (if you're gonna wear a sleeveless dress you should probably make sure you're good and shaved) :-P. I remember being confused because till then I thought women were just naturally hairless. So I asked my mom about it and she explained how girls shave their legs and under their arms. From then on till I got a little older and gender lines became more clear, whenever I took a shower (as a seven or eight year old boy who was pretty hairless to begin with) I would take my mom's razor and shave my legs and armpits because that's what girls did and I was a girl despite what people told me and that thing in between my legs. It was only as I got older and realized that I was not going to magically turn into a girl and male socialization really kicked in that I realized that was "wrong" and stopped doing it, or when I did made a huge effort to hide it.

Oh, yes :). When my body hair started to pop out - I dont remember how old I was... probably around 15 or 16, I instinctively shaved my legs and knees (the only place where I got hair for very long time), because something in me told me that I am not supposed to have hairy legs (well, not vellus type of hair, but those ugly black hairs). I just could not see my legs being hairy and I hardly knew anything about gender issues then - it just seemed unnatural for me to have hairy legs... Go figure :/
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Miyuki on November 20, 2013, 11:37:48 AM
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 20, 2013, 11:15:47 AM
Oh, yes :). When my body hair started to pop out - I dont remember how old I was... probably around 15 or 16, I instinctively shaved my legs and knees (the only place where I got hair for very long time), because something in me told me that I am not supposed to have hairy legs (well, not vellus type of hair, but those ugly black hairs). I just could not see my legs being hairy and I hardly knew anything about gender issues then - it just seemed unnatural for me to have hairy legs... Go figure :/

Sometimes I wonder if things like this really mean anything. It's not like it was never culturally acceptable for women to have hairy legs, or unshaved armpits, and in times/places where it was acceptable, women didn't usually make special efforts to remove hair in those areas. I wonder if there's anything fundamental to a female identity that makes you want to remove body hair, or if it's more about doing something because it feels like what you need to do to be accepted, or to be able to accept yourself. Cultural osmosis, or something like that.

For my part, I never shaved my legs as a teenager because I just didn't want to deal with people noticing and asking me questions about it. It was hard enough to keep from doing things that made people think I was gay already... What I did end up doing though, was refusing to wear shorts under any circumstances. Which people thought was weird for an entirely different set of reasons, but at least me acting gay wasn't one of them. :-\
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: kellibra on November 20, 2013, 03:26:41 PM
very interesting question and one we all think about with more or less intensity. i have never been attracted to males in any form especially the masculine men. on the other hand i have always and still do, perhaps even more now, have an obsession with feminine women and, probably now, feminine CDs. i love their look, attitude, demeanor and i immediately daydream about being intimate with them, discovering their god-like bodies, envying them and wanting to be like them. pursuing this reasoning though invariably leads me to wonder what it might be like actually being a woman in a sexual encounter. although i would definitely be a lesbian, i have to admit a growing fascination with the male organ but not the male itself. in these fantasies, i can only imagine myself as the receptor, not the giver. i acted on this fantasy once but penetration was a bit of a let down. oral was very exciting (and tasty...), maybe because i love the submissive female role? in any case, the sensation of me having sex as a woman was fulfilling. what does that make me? dunno and i don't really care. as i contemplate hrt, who knows how i will change? maybe i'll also go for hairy masculine guys but i don't think so, my ideal is still centered on my becoming a woman and enjoying sex as one.
Title: Re: Conflating gender identity and sexual orientation
Post by: Paulagirl on November 21, 2013, 09:13:06 AM
Here's one more to throw into the mix.
Despite knowing I was trans from an early age, for many years I thought that thru emulating men, I would eventually get the hang of it, and fix myself. All the while knowing I was a girl, I did guy things, dated, and tried to push my real gender out of my head.
Three failed marriages. Women liked that I was gentle, but sensed my dysphoria. I was really bad at sex with women. No matter what I did, my brain kept shouting 'I should be the one with my legs in the air!!' I had a few gay flings, figuring that I was taking a more female (bottom) role, and that might fix things. Instead, I just became a guy in a homosexual relationship, still a far cry from a woman in a hetero relationship. Conflicted became my mantra.
Ironically, years of cross dressing, two years full time as a woman, and six months HRT- I still don't know how, with whom, or even if, I will ever have sex, much less, deeply satisfying sex. I will have SRS, but it's not about having sex.
If I had to guess, my life mate would be male.