Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The title says it all however, I do have breasts, small sadly (A cup and I say sadly since though I'm happy to have them I wish they were a lot bigger) and have had them since I was 10-13 yo. I haven't had any hormones or surgery's etc. done and I've heard of Gynecomastia http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/guys/boybrst.html which btw I think for the ones who keep their breasts means it wasn't Gynecomastia but that they have actual breasts. So how can I tell whether these are real breasts or not? I heard there's some sort of bud but I have no clue what they're talking about? @_@

So back to the title, I need to know how I can tell if I'm intersex or not? Because if I'm not then I'm trans and I would like to know which or if it's both (Is that even possible?) so I can know how to tell my family that I'm actually trans and or intersex. If you need to ask me any questions I'll try and answer them so please ask. Please help if you can? :(

Shana-chan,

Test for a female breast:  Lie down on your back.  Place the fingers of your right hand flat against the left breast, fingers over the nipple, with your left arm extended above your head.  A female breast will have a round or oval lump under the nipple extending towards the outside of the body that is distinct from the nipple.  You should be able to move the lump with your hand, independent of movement of the nipple.  If you are in doubt, see a doctor and get a mammogram.  Fat tissue appears clear.  Female breasts have lumps in them. If you have glandular tissue, you have female breasts but still may not be intersexed.  Many young men, as they enter puberty, develop small, female type breasts (gynecomastia). In most men, they go away as they get older.  No real help for your question. It could just be you have fat deposits on your pecs or you could be growing a pair. Knowing what they are doesn't get you very far.  You need to know why they are there.

My experience: However, I had a mammogram in 2011 that showed only fat.  In 2012, a second mammogram showed an increase in the quantity of fat (even though I had lost 70 pounds) and an increase in connective tissue within the breast.  Then, I got the glandular tissue; which was due to an increase of estrogen and a decrease in testosterone, which was due to a medical condition. So, I started with doctors.  Somewhere in there, I also saw a psychologist.  I realized that I was trans.  I am still working on the medical condition. And yes, it is serious.  But I did start HRT and now, on HRT, I have real breasts. 

Intersex conditions: Depending on how you count, and I like the way I count, there are 26 intersexed conditions.  Which one would you like to discuss? (Rhetorical question....)  It takes a medical professional to get that answer. 

Serious:   I put intersexed conditions under the transgender umbrella.  It's a big umbrella and includes all kinds of people.  You say you want breasts?  You may be transgendered.  Start by talking with your parents or a doctor about your breasts and that you are concerned.  (Parent will probably blow you off so be persistent.) Questions to ask are ones like "Why do I have them?"  Your goal is to get to a medical doctor and to get to a psychologist to talk with both about your breasts and at least with the psyc, why you want them bigger. 

There are a number of medical conditions that can cause a person to grow breasts.  It would be good to know what is causing that as some are serious.  Being transgendered is difficult but being what you are is also difficult.

We are here for you. 

Jen

@Jen: Thank you. :) I tried it. At first I didn't feel anything so I tried my right breast and felt something round under the nipple that moved independent of the nipple, then I tried the left breast once more and I might have felt something but not sure. Is it normal for one breast to be bigger than the other? In my case the bigger breast is the one I believe had the bud in it where as the smaller one I'm not sure. Even now though I can't be a hundred percent sure so seeing a doc who knows what they're talking about is something I need to do at some point, not sure when though. :(

Actually I'm an adult (Got a late start to life though so still catching up) but do have to rely on my Dad for help and I plan to tell him soon that I'm trans and or intersex. I've already figured out why I want bigger breasts and that's because I'm a girl, despite my body's appearance. So I know I'm either trans, intersex or both, I just don't know which and I would like to know if I'm intersex or not because that'd tell me I'm trans for sure.

Well I don't "think" I have a condition that would hurt me seeing as I've had these breasts for half my life now with no problems. As to getting a check up, well, the one specialist I went to said I was fine and my actual Doc atm who I strongly dislike due to how he's treated me and lied to me is, well, a liar and not a nice person to me. :( Yet, I don't know what Doc would take the insurance I've got aside from him and my Dad refuses to take me to another doc when there's one right there unless by some chance there's another one in the same location that accepts the insurance I have which I doubt. -_-

Quote from: JLT1 on November 23, 2013, 11:20:27 PM
I put intersexed conditions under the transgender umbrella. 

Forgive a momentary interruption here - but I think the important thing to realise is that we don't all view things the same. For example Jen - and with no offence intended - I am intersex - but if you ever tried to place me in the transgender umbrella, so help me, I'd probably deck you! because that's just not how I see my life or self identify at all... So making sweeping statements does risk making someone like me downright ruddy hostile to the cause... which I'm sure is not the result you intended.

I think the important thing to realise Shana and Jen - (which is where we come back on topic) - is that all these labels and categories are not hard edged they are only virtual tools towards  understanding, so please don't get too hung up on labels, but also please try not to use a one size fits all approach.

Personally I don't think I fit the transgender label in any way shape or form because my "gender" has pretty well always been congruent with my social status all of my life. My issue was always solely with sorting out various physical incongruities... now some folks use sex and gender interchangeably, even in a clinical setting. Others like me insist that they are different.

Now Shana - what is important is that you have a problem and you need a solution to it. Whether or not you are intersex is only important in so far as it might affect the course of your treatment. Being Trans is a perfectly valid condition, and no less of an issue than being intersex. They are however different in that someone trans will have issues over gender whereas those of us who are intersex usually do not.

In terms of the mechanics of the treatment, those of us who have intersex conditions like AIS, usually get a better response to HRT, but in all other respects the mechanism of treatment is pretty identical, which is why most medical professionals will not routinely test you for it.

I hope that is of some help.

I don't know of any Intersex individuals who would consider themselves "under the transgender umbrella" (and I know quite a few). Intersex is a medically diagnosed condition and not self-diagnosed.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 24, 2013, 02:04:46 PM
I don't know of any Intersex individuals who would consider themselves "under the transgender umbrella" (and I know quite a few). Intersex is a medically diagnosed condition and not self-diagnosed.

Glad to know I'm not unusual then... :D

Doctorwho,

Thank you for being patient and I meant no offense.  It is frustrating that I've now been hammered on by individuals who are intersexed for putting it under the umbrella and by intersexed individuals for not not putting it under the umbrella.  This is from Susan's WIKI of the definition of transgender: "The extent to which intersex people (those with ambiguous genitalia or other physical sexual characteristics) are transgender is debated, since not all intersex people disagree with their gender assigned at birth."  I like that definition but I got hammered on once for quoting that.  If the "experts" can't agree on the definition, then is it reasonable that there would be confusion to those of us who try to implement solutions to help people rather than sit in an ivory tower thinking but never really doing. Labels and bright-lines sometimes don't work well when one deals with reality. 

I meant no offense and I understand what you are saying.  From what you have said, you are on one end of the intersexed spectrum where your "gender has pretty well always been congruent with (your) social status all of (your) life".  Given that, I would not put you under the transgender umbrella and I apologize for doing so.  However, I am also intersexed and I went through surgeries as a child to make me appear male.  I have lived my life as a male; an unhappy life and one where I could not father children or even relate to the world in the gender chosen for me before I could even speak. I am on the other end of the spectrum.  I am now changing that and therefore I put myself under the transgender umbrella but in a different category than most.  Given the upcoming changes, I feel I have far more in common with a MTF transsexual than I do with intersexed people who are as content as one could be given the nature of their specific condition.  My insurance company, who is paying for most of what is coming, has also put me under the transgender umbrella and then added additional allowances due to my being intersexed.  My doctors are just trying to get my mind and body on the same page.

I do not understand this paragraph.  I agree that sex and gender are different concepts.  However, physical incongruities reefers to which one?  Sex or gender?  Perhaps if we were to agree upon working definitions of "sex", "gender" and the concept of "physical incongruities" it would help me to understand your use of these terms.   Then, I'm really puzzled by your use of gender and social status together as  two dominant characteristics of your life.  I think there are terminology difficulties....

If the physical incongruities refers to your sex, it seems like your just trying to get sex and gender alined as much as is possible. That is actually what I'm trying to do so it would seem to be a matter of degree rather than a matter of interpretation.  I'm fine with that as a concept.  Like I stated, you and I are on very different ends of the intersexed spectrum.  However, that "degree" concept really is the source of the debate to include or exclude intersexed people from the transgender umbrella. 

Jen


Jane,

I guess I am one...  There are a few others on this site who would do so as well.  There are yet a few more who posted and then got hammered by people who now just read posts and PM on occasion.  Some of the more extreme forms of intersexed conditions often don't fit well with within the ISNA categories.  I have sent you quite a bit.  I can send medical records if you would like...

Quote from: JLT1 on November 23, 2013, 11:20:27 PM
Shana-chan,

Test for a female breast:  Lie down on your back.  Place the fingers of your right hand flat against the left breast, fingers over the nipple, with your left arm extended above your head.  A female breast will have a round or oval lump under the nipple extending towards the outside of the body that is distinct from the nipple.  You should be able to move the lump with your hand, independent of movement of the nipple.  If you are in doubt, see a doctor and get a mammogram.  Fat tissue appears clear.  Female breasts have lumps in them. If you have glandular tissue, you have female breasts but still may not be intersexed.  Many young men, as they enter puberty, develop small, female type breasts (gynecomastia). In most men, they go away as they get older.  No real help for your question. It could just be you have fat deposits on your pecs or you could be growing a pair. Knowing what they are doesn't get you very far.  You need to know why they are there.

Interesting read, i semi put the intersex question to my gp.  He did that exact thing to me, didnt mention anything, he did order hormone tests though, havent gone yet due to cash.  I've felt those under there before but thought they were normal, although my gp did agree i had gynecomastia, since im fairly big there, although most is just fat.

If im not mistake though, gynecomastia can happen for a number non intersex reasons.

From my own reading, some intersex conditions arent exactly easy to find. People finding a uterus during or right before bottom surgery and genetics and other stuff.

@Jen Don't worry - like I said We all have different takes on stuff - and you have as much right to self define as I do...

I just think when someone asks its usually best to qualify by saying "well this is my take, but others may feel different."

As far as physical incongruities are concerned I mean like having genitals which arent quite male and arent quite female.

Sex is a physical medical property - as in do you have an innie or an outie - and do you have ovaries or testes etc...

Gender is the sociological fluff ie how do you feel, how do you behave, how were you brought up, do you like to be called sir or miss etc...

I don't understand people having a problem with gender because I never really have. I just wanted to be physically unambiguously female - the rest for me is optional... although I have no complaints that I was raised pretty well as a somewhat masculine "alpha" girl, and that is how people usually perceive me.

Sure I'm used to being ma'am or miss without question, but it really wouldn't worry me overly if someone called me sir as long as they were polite.

So to me, as a uk trainee medic, someone is only really intersex if they have a recognised underlying physical medical condition (crudely with the plumbing downstairs) which causes them to have what in the UK would be classed as a "disorder of sexual differentiation."

Oh and I suppose the other point to add is that as my treatment all happened 30 years ago... I'm no longer even that. Hence another possible difference in our perspectives. You still have an ongoing issue, to resolve, I don't. I was allowed to grow up with some physical ambiguities, but was also always allowed to choose my gender expression, and yes even back then there were parent who did that! Then when I became an adult I got the physical bits sorted without many problems and that was that. No issues.

I suppose there is likely to be a difference in the view of those who frequently visit Intersex forums and not transgender forums than from those who visit both and I was speaking of the attitude most often voiced on Intersex forums. Part of the attitude there I am sure comes from transgender people "usurping" the Intersex label when many Intersex people have gone through hell because of their condition and things that have been done TO them without their consent.

Personally, I identified as transsexual from when I first heard the term and knew from childhood that I wasn't "right" (and so did everybody else). I 'transitioned' and had surgery at 24 and didn't know I was Intersex until my  late 50s when I found out I have a uterus. I have to admit that the diagnosis didn't come as a  surprised because of my 50/50 puberty but it seemed ironic that I would be almost 60 before anybody clued in to the unusual physiology.

I mean no disrespect to either group and consider myself to be part of both based on life's experience and physiology.

I have a lot of respect for both TS and IS folks; however I see this issue as legitimate vs. illegitimate claims on both sides. Body vs. psyche. This is how it is being perceived in IS community. And diagnose is being seen as "membership card". Very unfortunate, but anybody struggling with their identity should not need to apply. Here is little twist.  One of the arguments that cis people have against Trans folks is that they compare they own experiences and say "Well, I played with dolls or cars when I was small and look I turned out perfectly fine". In reality, there is very small percentage of human population struggling with gender. As for IS folks, doctors may try to do their best, finding out about chromosomes, running tests etc  and yet just like in broader picture there is small percentage of IS community that simply does not agree with gender assign. These are facts. So just because some IS folks do not experience gender issues, does not mean that problem does not exist for others. And their own personal experience should not be used as road map for others. We all are unique individuals.

From my personal experience. I do not know what umbrella I should be under. To tell the truth I do not know, who or what I am biologically. After couple months I realized that I do not need to care about whether somebody believes my story or not. Before I came to this forum I was looking for some answers. I knew I cannot post about my experiences on IS forums, but it was much likely that IS person may experience something similar to what I did. Yet my life experiences are very similar to thousand of other TS people. So there is element of TS, pure madness and IS(?). Not in terms of being self diagnosed, but rather being observed. I wish I could get some answers from some knowledgeable doctor, but based on my recent experience I say it is going to be difficult. Since March I am struggling with society's perception. There were times when people actually turn around in stores, made comments and laughs. I know my face is changing, but I cannot do anything about it. I was misgendered in public and almost every pedestrian passing by was staring at me. In the begining I wanted to say, "this is not by my choice, I have some legitimate biological reason for it", but at the end who gives a crap. For these people I'm TS, whether I like or not. Maybe I need my own freaking umbrella.   

Now when I go to see a doctor, will I be properly diagnosed? Or will doctor be simply satisfied with first plausible explanation? Will he consider all facts, or take under consideration only those that make some sense to him. On the personal level, will you believe your own judgment and senses, or somebody who does not walk in your shoes.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 24, 2013, 03:09:06 PM
I suppose there is likely to be a difference in the view of those who frequently visit Intersex forums and not transgender forums than from those who visit both and I was speaking of the attitude most often voiced on Intersex forums. Part of the attitude there I am sure comes from transgender people "usurping" the Intersex label when many Intersex people have gone through hell because of their condition and things that have been done TO them without their consent.

Personally, I identified as transsexual from when I first heard the term and knew from childhood that I wasn't "right" (and so did everybody else). I 'transitioned' and had surgery at 24 and didn't know I was Intersex until my  late 50s when I found out I have a uterus. I have to admit that the diagnosis didn't come as a  surprised because of my 50/50 puberty but it seemed ironic that I would be almost 60 before anybody clued in to the unusual physiology.

I mean no disrespect to either group and consider myself to be part of both based on life's experience and physiology.

May i ask  how you found out you had a uterus?  Most of the stories i've read people found later in life and often by accident or when serious problems arose.   

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on November 24, 2013, 03:43:33 PM
May i ask  how you found out you had a uterus?  Most of the stories i've read people found later in life and often by accident or when serious problems arose.

You may ask.

I was adopted as a child and met my birth mother when I was 40. From what I learned from her over the following years and coupled with the (physiological) oddities of my early life and obtuse comments my adopted mom made over the years, I began to wonder if there was more to my case than I knew. I asked my GP what could be determined after all these years and she referred me to a geneticist. Extensive tests were carried out over a year and a half and an abdominal CT scan showed the presence of a uterus. Since no histology was done on my  gonads when they were removed at age 24, a specific diagnosis could not be made but "true hermaphrodite" is the only condition that exlains all of the symptoms and indications.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on November 24, 2013, 03:43:33 PM
May i ask  how you found out you had a uterus?  Most of the stories i've read people found later in life and often by accident or when serious problems arose.

PrincessDiana, a member here, found hers when a doctor did an ultrasound after she started bleeding through her rectum after three months on estrogen.  They followed up with an MRI.  She has Klinefelter's (XXY) with probable mitosis after initial fertilization leading to a mosaic (XX,XXY).  There was another one who found hers via an MRI when a doctor noticed that her undescended testicles actually were not even there.  Think girl with no opening and an enlarged clitoris that contains the urethra. 

Generally MRI.  CT scan works.  Ultrasound is more indicative but not definitive.

If your doctor ordered a genetic test, it is probly a karyotype analysis, looking for Klinefelter's but it could be more indepth like male XX or others.  If they do find Klienfelter's, they should go back and do a large number of blood cells looking for XX or XY cells. 

Hugs,

Jen


I will not talk about what I am until I have, in my hand, rather than from a statement, a doctors diagonosis.  They won't even write it down.  %^&%$#s!

@Doctorwho?

No worries. I truly did not mean offense. I will add the appropriate verbage. 

@Northern Jane

I kind of blew up on you.  I am sorry.  They took me off E five weeks ago.  T-makers came roaring back.  There was nasty pain three weeks ago. Thursday, at four weeks, all @**# breaks loose.  I am terrified of the pain that is coming.  I am really not doing well here for that and other reasons.  I probably shouldn't be posting but it keeps my mind off things.  A little.

@XTERRA

Thank You!  Thank You!

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: JLT1 on November 24, 2013, 05:51:49 PM
PrincessDiana, a member here, found hers when a doctor did an ultrasound after she started bleeding through her rectum after three months on estrogen.  They followed up with an MRI.  She has Klinefelter's (XXY) with probable mitosis after initial fertilization leading to a mosaic (XX,XXY).  There was another one who found hers via an MRI when a doctor noticed that her undescended testicles actually were not even there.  Think girl with no opening and an enlarged clitoris that contains the urethra. 

Generally MRI.  CT scan works.  Ultrasound is more indicative but not definitive.

If your doctor ordered a genetic test, it is probly a karyotype analysis, looking for Klinefelter's but it could be more indepth like male XX or others.  If they do find Klienfelter's, they should go back and do a large number of blood cells looking for XX or XY cells. 

Hugs,

Jen


I will not talk about what I am until I have, in my hand, rather than from a statement, a doctors diagonosis.  They won't even write it down.  %^&%$#s!

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 24, 2013, 04:35:46 PM
You may ask.

I was adopted as a child and met my birth mother when I was 40. From what I learned from her over the following years and coupled with the (physiological) oddities of my early life and obtuse comments my adopted mom made over the years, I began to wonder if there was more to my case than I knew. I asked my GP what could be determined after all these years and she referred me to a geneticist. Extensive tests were carried out over a year and a half and an abdominal CT scan showed the presence of a uterus. Since no histology was done on my  gonads when they were removed at age 24, a specific diagnosis could not be made but "true hermaphrodite" is the only condition that exlains all of the symptoms and indications.

I honestly dont have the money for HRT but wish i did.  I'm honestly suspecting klinefelters since alot of the symptoms fit me, and at some point id like to seriously investigate.  The reason why i ask is cause puberty hit my kind of strange.   I had kind of a half puberty as a teenager.  Then it all the sudden hit me like a truck at 25. im 28 now and barely grow a beard, although i have to shave every day now.   Up until 25, i basically looked like i was 15.  I shaved once a week, and 9/10 of my taxicab pickups would grille me on if i was even old enough to drive, some to the point id have to show my license.
My best friend thinks i get moody when shes on her period too lol.  Now she wants to check per month and see lol.   

Anyways, i had alot of strange too, like one large teste and one small one, and when i started getting hair everywhere and acne at 25, the large one shrank to the size of the smaller one.  When i went to the GP he tried to check if there was anything in there extra with his hands, but really how could he know feeling my stumuch?

Quote from: Shana-chan on November 24, 2013, 03:26:50 AM
@Jen: Thank you. :) I tried it. At first I didn't feel anything so I tried my right breast and felt something round under the nipple that moved independent of the nipple, then I tried the left breast once more and I might have felt something but not sure. Is it normal for one breast to be bigger than the other? In my case the bigger breast is the one I believe had the bud in it where as the smaller one I'm not sure. Even now though I can't be a hundred percent sure so seeing a doc who knows what they're talking about is something I need to do at some point, not sure when though. :(

Actually I'm an adult (Got a late start to life though so still catching up) but do have to rely on my Dad for help and I plan to tell him soon that I'm trans and or intersex. I've already figured out why I want bigger breasts and that's because I'm a girl, despite my body's appearance. So I know I'm either trans, intersex or both, I just don't know which and I would like to know if I'm intersex or not because that'd tell me I'm trans for sure.

Well I don't "think" I have a condition that would hurt me seeing as I've had these breasts for half my life now with no problems. As to getting a check up, well, the one specialist I went to said I was fine and my actual Doc atm who I strongly dislike due to how he's treated me and lied to me is, well, a liar and not a nice person to me. :( Yet, I don't know what Doc would take the insurance I've got aside from him and my Dad refuses to take me to another doc when there's one right there unless by some chance there's another one in the same location that accepts the insurance I have which I doubt. -_-

When I was young, I had gynecomastia.  It mostly went away (A cup).  Really didn't think it was a huge problem.  Hit me when I was 49.  On that basis, I think you have some time.  The dysphoria will get you before then.  But don't take too much time as there could be something up.  I slid for a few years. 

Doctors.  I have had some truly tremendous doctors.  I have had some that were the opposite.  If you get one that lies to you, run.  If you get one who is truly incompetent, run.  You find a good one, stay with that doctor and let them know that they are good.  One of the best doctors I had was close to an idiot.  I honestly don't know how he made it through medical school.  But he knew what he knew and when he didn't know, he sent me to excellent specialists.  Very odd but it worked.

Good luck,

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on November 24, 2013, 07:26:42 PM
I honestly dont have the money for HRT but wish i did.  I'm honestly suspecting klinefelters since alot of the symptoms fit me, and at some point id like to seriously investigate.  The reason why i ask is cause puberty hit my kind of strange.   I had kind of a half puberty as a teenager.  Then it all the sudden hit me like a truck at 25. im 28 now and barely grow a beard, although i have to shave every day now.   Up until 25, i basically looked like i was 15.  I shaved once a week, and 9/10 of my taxicab pickups would grille me on if i was even old enough to drive, some to the point id have to show my license.
My best friend thinks i get moody when shes on her period too lol.  Now she wants to check per month and see lol.   

Anyways, i had alot of strange too, like one large teste and one small one, and when i started getting hair everywhere and acne at 25, the large one shrank to the size of the smaller one.  When i went to the GP he tried to check if there was anything in there extra with his hands, but really how could he know feeling my stumuch?

I don't know what a doctor could feel.  I'm not a doctor nor am I a geneticist.  I'm a chemist/molecular toxicologist.  I started having problems and did a lot of reading.  It was kind of fun.  Then I started connecting the dots.  And I kept reading.   I'm also not a fan of categories or bright-lines. 

There are companies out there that run these tests. Heck, a person can get any test done they want.  They just need to know what to do with the results.  Sometimes they are cheaper than using the doctors lab or recommended lab.  I just ran a google search and found a lab in just a few seconds.  They take anyone's insurance.  That might get it cheap enough.  Just an idea. 

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: Doctorwho? on November 24, 2013, 11:30:14 AM
Forgive a momentary interruption here - but I think the important thing to realise is that we don't all view things the same. For example Jen - and with no offence intended - I am intersex - but if you ever tried to place me in the transgender umbrella, so help me, I'd probably deck you! because that's just not how I see my life or self identify at all... So making sweeping statements does risk making someone like me downright ruddy hostile to the cause... which I'm sure is not the result you intended.

I think the important thing to realise Shana and Jen - (which is where we come back on topic) - is that all these labels and categories are not hard edged they are only virtual tools towards  understanding, so please don't get too hung up on labels, but also please try not to use a one size fits all approach.

Personally I don't think I fit the transgender label in any way shape or form because my "gender" has pretty well always been congruent with my social status all of my life. My issue was always solely with sorting out various physical incongruities... now some folks use sex and gender interchangeably, even in a clinical setting. Others like me insist that they are different.

Now Shana - what is important is that you have a problem and you need a solution to it. Whether or not you are intersex is only important in so far as it might affect the course of your treatment. Being Trans is a perfectly valid condition, and no less of an issue than being intersex. They are however different in that someone trans will have issues over gender whereas those of us who are intersex usually do not.

In terms of the mechanics of the treatment, those of us who have intersex conditions like AIS, usually get a better response to HRT, but in all other respects the mechanism of treatment is pretty identical, which is why most medical professionals will not routinely test you for it.

I hope that is of some help.

Hmm.  I look at your statement that has been highlighted and wonder why you nuance the definition of "transgender."  The generally accepted definition is of one whose gender identity does not match their assigned sex.  Obviously, with intersex conditions, the assignment part adds to the complexity of the issue.

I have read many account of examples of those who are transgendered or transsexual, and have never seen "social status" as a descriptor.  If you mean to say that your gender identity matched your self-identification, and perhaps socialization as a female, then you do not differ from many other MtF or MtA TG/TS individuals on these boards.

And that you had gender corrective surgery/sexual reassigment surgery/gender affirmation surgery (submit your own description), changing in some way the appearance and/or function of your genitals, would seem to suggest an element of transsexuality.

There seems to be something like a TG/TS hostility to your very aggressive post.

Am I wrong?

Quote from: JLT1 on November 24, 2013, 09:27:17 PM
I don't know what a doctor could feel.  I'm not a doctor nor am I a geneticist.  I'm a chemist/molecular toxicologist.  I started having problems and did a lot of reading.  It was kind of fun.  Then I started connecting the dots.  And I kept reading.   I'm also not a fan of categories or bright-lines. 

There are companies out there that run these tests. Heck, a person can get any test done they want.  They just need to know what to do with the results.  Sometimes they are cheaper than using the doctors lab or recommended lab.  I just ran a google search and found a lab in just a few seconds.  They take anyone's insurance.  That might get it cheap enough.  Just an idea. 

Hugs,

Jen

Yeah, no insurance, paying everything OOP on 17k a year.  I've seen those.  I will likely end up waiting till problems arise if they do. Or investigating it later when I do take care of some of my transition stuff and health care ive been letting slide since i got no insurance.

Quote from: Gabrielle on November 25, 2013, 02:16:21 AM
Am I wrong?

Do you think I would really be back here trying to help people if I was hostile?

Others who have been on this site a long time like Cindy K8 FA and Janet know who I am and know my complex life story. I've been here before as a volunteer helper and was a site moderator, but left because of other life priorities. I came back a few months ago because I wanted to offer my support.

So yes I'm afraid you are completely misreading this, but I'm afraid I don't really feel its is now appropriate to go over my story in huge detail, so please accept my apologies if the post came over as aggressive to you. That is never my intention. I just want to try to help people understand that these things are seldom black and white. We all have different stories to tell. For myself I just don't happen to find a lot of the classical trans narrative very applicable because, as is well known to the aforementioned people, I grew up as a girl and despite some issues in my teens I am still female.

Yes it is a matter of record that I had to have some genital corrective surgery because I was Partial Androgen Insensitive. I tend to declare that in trans spaces because I do not wish to be dishonest. However I am aware that my understanding of the trans experience is limited because have never had the experience of hostility, I have never had any issues with fitting in, never experienced the regrets over a lost childhood (because mine wasn't), never had any of the confusions doubts and fears that many seem to do... And so I also do define myself as cisgender because I am very aware that there is a lot about being trans that I simply don't comprehend - and it would therefore seem arrogant of me to presume!

I'm aware that that label also doesn't fit perfectly - but it seems to me to be closer to my experience and basically as this site has always upheld the individuals right to self identify, that it is what I choose, with no intention of hostility to anyone.

If my presence ever becomes unwelcome I happy to leave as I have no wish to upset or antagonise.. I hope that will not be the case.

Doctor, I know exactly who you are, were, and your backstory.  That is not the issue.

It is truism in our community of transfolk that nothing is "black or white."

"I am intersex - but if you ever tried to place me in the transgender umbrella, so help me, I'd probably deck you!" and "So making sweeping statements does risk making someone like me downright ruddy hostile to the cause," are in and of themselves hostile.

"Do you think I would really be back here trying to help people if I was hostile?"

I appreciate your presence, knowledge, and motivations.  I welcome you back.  But I am puzzled by your insistence on being an outsider.  It is even in your profile text - "Non-TG."  I accept you as part of the TG community, though it appears you are in denial of that fundamental commonality.

Inclusiveness is the touchstone of this community.  Your posts in this topic seem distance yourself from it.

Quote from: Gabrielle on November 25, 2013, 03:05:03 AM
It is even in your profile text - "Non-TG."  I accept you as part of the TG community, though it appears you are in denial of that fundamental commonality.

Inclusiveness is the touchstone of this community.  Your posts in this topic seem distance yourself from it.

Correct - because I don't "perceive myself to be part of this community". Distance in time (nearly 30 years since treatment), coupled with being forced by circumstances, to move on in life has lead me to re-evaluate myself - and certain things which I believed about myself and found to be helpful in earlier years, I now feel differently about.

There is nothing sinister in that, it is just part of the journey of life. I bear no one any ill will - but, as someone far more famous than I once said - "kindly include me out." As I said I believe self identification is a fundamental tenet of the core values of this site, and I no longer identify as in any way trans. It's fine for those who want to do so and find it helpful - for me it had become a kind of destructive self fulfilling prophecy - and one which I now choose to reject as is surely my right. Indeed this insistence in wanting to include people in something which they no longer feel is helping them, is one of the reasons I departed before. Sadly I think I should probably do so again as we will clearly never agree on this, and I have no wish to either be "included against my will" or an irritant, so my best course is probably to uninclude myself by not being here.

I hoped it might be possible to adopt the position of a semi-detatched participant - both not entirely cis and not entirely trans. It seems I was over optimistic and indeed possibly trying to have my cake and eat it. No matter. I apologise for the intrusion. As I will not be practicing in the field of gender, perhaps you are right and it is time for me to say a properly final farewell.

Life doe context change people. For example one is seldom viewed in the same light at work and home. To one set of people you can appear the hero, and to the other a clown without anything unusual involved. That is just the subjective nature of human interaction. Meanwhile I am no longer the partner of a trans SO, as sadly she died a few weeks ago. I have only a very few remaining trans friends, all of whom are in far deeper stealth than me and wouldn't even visit forum, and the rules imposed by my new profession are making it increasingly difficult to participate in online social media. So for all of these reasons it probably is time to quietly depart and wish everyone well.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on November 25, 2013, 04:58:27 AM
I hoped it might be possible to adopt the position of a semi-detatched participant - both not entirely cis and not entirely trans. It seems I was over optimistic and indeed possibly trying to have my cake and eat it. No matter. I apologise for the intrusion. As I will not be practicing in the field of gender, perhaps you are right and it is time for me to say a properly final farewell.

Dr. Who:

There are some very strong emotions from both sides of the intersexed and transgender groups.   There are misunderstandings on both sides.  There are differences but there are similarities.  The differences can be worked through.  The two groups would be stronger working together.  I would appreciate it if you were to help.  It will get personal.  It will get frustrating.  But there are a number of people who are intersexed who come to this site and find out due to what is on these pages and could use your assistance.  Then, there are a number of transgendered people who could use your help.

I don't know who you are, I know very little about your history.  I only know what I have read here.  Many of your posts have been truly excellent.  You have helped.

I'd really like to work through this, if only to gain a deeper understanding of the divide.  Yes, I've been hit as well.  It's all water of a ducks back.  There is much to do.

Gabrielle:

I understand where you are coming from.  I would like to build a bridge between the two groups.  This is a good place to start.  Would you help?

All: The bridge is going to be built.  We have a chance to make it less painful.

Hugs,

Jen

I think the main problem is that most Intersex people have the same misconceptions as John Q. Public about transgender. They see transgender as "a choice" where as Intersex is something you are born with and thrown into against your will. Many Intersex people also have a dubious relationship with the medical profession due to prior mistreatment and medical incompetence. With the distrust, any dealings with the medical profession tend to be only on an as-needed basis and with trepidation.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 25, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
I think the main problem is that most Intersex people have the same misconceptions as John Q. Public about transgender. They see transgender as "a choice" where as Intersex is something you are born with and thrown into against your will.

I will agree with that statement although things are changing.  I do not see it as a choice.  Well, "change, die or be maimed" I suppose is a choice but not much of one.  So, communicaiton would help.  But running away from each other doesn't help.  And the hatred between elements of the two groups.  Wow.....

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 25, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
Many Intersex people also have a dubious relationship with the medical profession due to prior mistreatment and medical incompetence. With the distrust, any dealings with the medical profession tend to be only on an as-needed basis and with trepidation.

What the medical profession has done to intersexed people is nothing short of cruelty.  They suckled money from the parents and mutilated the children.  The doctors displayed themselves to be nothing but poor students from the Josef Mengle School of medicine.  And that, I agree, is a big difference.

However, the general population really doesn't care and has started lumping the two together.  If you're going to be stuck in bed with someone, it is better if the two are friendly and best if they are intimate companions.   And that is where it is headed.  I'm not saying that it is ight, I am saying that is the way it is.

Hugs,

Jen

I originally created this thread to find out which I was (Trans or IS or both) because I wanted to know which to go with to come out to Family with but I'm glad this thread turned into something bigger. My hope is it somehow helps all of us and the different communities (Trans, IS etc. etc.) come together because IF we can all work together and get along then we can accomplish much more and really, why can't we all get along and have peace?

So to better help anyone passing by, can someone post all the intersex conditions there are? See I myself was born with a deformity and this deformity is one of a few reasons why I suspect I might be intersex and not just trans. Can someone also post a list of all the deformities that make people intersex or might mean they're IS?

Oh and thanks everyone for all the help and views and stuff. :)

Quote from: Shana-chan on November 25, 2013, 02:01:02 PMSo to better help anyone passing by, can someone post all the intersex conditions there are?

GOOD LORD! There are between 50 and 90 different types of Intersex currently recognized and even more variations than that. Posting a definitive list would be impossible because there aren't clear delineations between some conditions.

References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions

@Jane: Uh...wow. I didn't realize there were so many but I guess that makes sense since the body has a lot in and on it. Thanks for posting those links. :)

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 25, 2013, 03:46:21 PM
GOOD LORD! There are between 50 and 90 different types of Intersex currently recognized and even more variations than that. Posting a definitive list would be impossible because there aren't clear delineations between some conditions.

I was thinking that.  I looked at the Wiki - I lump some things togather as some researchers do while others really get specific and tend to make as many as possible. 

Jane, Thank You

Hugs,

Jen