Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So i was sitting around the house sipping some hot coco and started to wonder if something was possible, and if it was if anyone would be up for it one day...

Why can't doctors do extensive counseling with us transfolk and if we get the final go on it, wheel two trans persons, one MTF and one FTM who are donor matches, and basically swap out our goodies? In the end those of us who are MTF can benifit from everything naturally producing estrogen, we can experience periods and we can get pregnant. Of course the.FTM would be able to benefit from the constant flow of T, and be able to.father a baby in the end. Idk to me it makes more sense to me then those organs that still have plenty of miles left on them getting tossed into the trash.

I would love to hear not only the opinion of people on our side of this discussion, but also from the FTM community so if anyone knows anyone over in those forums, feel free to invite them over here.

Thanks.
Kari.

Because You cant swap brains - if that is what You meant... Brain is unique and it is tuned up to this one exact body and being transplanted into another body, it wont know what to do... At least, that is the explanation which is on Intrawebz (yep, been wondering about exactly the same thing some time ago).

I hope you don't mind my humour about it but it's one of those "It's so crazy... it might just work" situations.

But nevertheless, I would also like to see what people think about this and what scruples would medical science have in employing such surgeries.

I have thought the same thing but even if they could mtf couldn't give birth because of the smaller pelvic bone.

Quote from: JennyH on November 29, 2013, 05:14:20 PM
I have thought the same thing but even if they could mtf couldn't give birth because of the smaller pelvic bone.

How about Caesarean section? That sort of bypasses the problem, even though you'd have a scar on your belly for the rest of life.

I've thought about this as well or maybe both MTF and FTM donating their
external body parts (downstairs and top). Speaking from an FTM perspective
I WISH it was possible to auction my parts to an MTF or a cis gender woman.

Forget swapping things between 2 people. You'd get rejection issues with both sets of junk and loads of meds to deal with these issues. What about 3d printing ? Design your own bits in Solidworks and send them to a medical lab for printing. They've already printed replacement bladders, a bit of a liver and an oesophagus. No rejection issues because you are using your own cells.

I knew I should have gone to bed earlier...... ;D

I heard of 3D printing or whatever. They're actually trying to create a replacement for human male genitals using your cells. Which probably won't be for another 5-10 years. That would be awesome!!

Quote from: nikkit72 on November 29, 2013, 05:32:41 PM
Forget swapping things between 2 people. You'd get rejection issues with both sets of junk and loads of meds to deal with these issues. What about 3d printing ? Design your own bits in Solidworks and send them to a medical lab for printing. They've already printed replacement bladders, a bit of a liver and an oesophagus. No rejection issues because you are using your own cells.

I knew I should have gone to bed earlier...... ;D

Not always. There have already been 3 or 4 experimental female to female uterine transplants done. That i can remember one experienced about 4 complete menstrual cycles before the uterus was removed, and another successfully carried full term and delivered a healthy baby. The other two i think were removed several weeks later to test the tissues for signs of rejection and proper blood flow.

If the 3d printing was based on my brain stem cells and could grow a pelvis, vagina, uterus, overies, and Fallopian  tubes, count me in. otherwise no thank you.

It also has to do with rejections, it would seem like such a risky operation to have. I would think your best bets would be to have the desired body parts created from your adult stem cells or something. I hope to one day to have at least ovaries and maybe a vagina that doesn't require dilation, a girl has to dream

Quote from: nikkit72 on November 29, 2013, 05:32:41 PM
What about 3d printing ? Design your own bits in Solidworks and send them to a medical lab for printing. They've already printed replacement bladders, a bit of a liver and an oesophagus. No rejection issues because you are using your own cells.

Yes you are on the right track... 3D printing and additive fabrication is the next wave of the future.

I have one slated for delivery in January. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to print organs with it! ;)

sounds like a bad idea.  there's enough things that could go wrong with transition as is

Printing is the future. I've done a lot of 3d printing using all types of machines. They have already printed a penis for a rabbit that was functional. The research is being funded by us military research groups who are looking at ways to help young soldiers with injuries cause by IEDs (they often explode and damage the legs and andogenital regions) With 3d printing though, it's not tissue they print, it's a type of lattice that stem cells are encouraged to grow on, the scaffold/lattice dissolves and leaves the part. I find the concept of replacement body parts fascinating. Tissue engineering, genetic therapy and printing will ultimately lead us to biological immortality and free humans from the limits of inherited biology.

Id be down!

There has been a lot of progress with uterine transplantation but still a lot of risk for rejection and you really would have to load up on anti-rejection meds. But yeah, regenerative medicine is a more viable path. They're already able to augment breast and penis size using stem cells, and should be come the augmentation method of choice before the end of the decade. I read some things earlier this year that said 10 years from now, it will likely be possible to print out all the necessary parts and implant them without risk of rejection. Sounds good to me! :) Not sure if I'd want to get preggers with those parts though... seems a bit weird and squicky... :icon_weirdface:

It probably wouldn't be functional because the MTF brain is not wired to use ovaries and the FTM brain is not wired to use a penis. It'd be like putting a third arm on your body. Not only would you have to send nerves and blood vessels to the area, but you would have to somehow restructure the brain to USE the parts. If it were possible to do that, many health issues would be a thing of the past, such as menopause, many thyroid issues, and mental development issues.

Sorry, but a functional vagina w/ ovaries for a MTF is probably the last thing on the list for science to accomplish =/

I agree with Alaina, mtfs aren't really on many lists of priorities but, there's lots of rich women out there that would pay big dollars for more reliable firtility treatments.trans people will benefit from that research..

The idea is certainly not new.  Lili Elbe received a uterine transplant in 1931 and died shortly thereafter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe

Randi

I was listening to a science program this morning that was discussing growing replacement human organs from the patient's cells, and it wouldn't have to be the liver cells regrowing a new liver, it could for example be skin cells tricked into believing they were now liver cells. In theory it would get around the rejection issue. Using the same logic it stands to reason that, with a tickle of the chromosomes from X to Y (or vice versa), that the cells might be tricked into creating reproductive organs of the opposite gender for the patient (and not be biologically rejected when attached). I agree though that the wiring of the brain, and over coming the fact that it has developed to deal with the original set might prove problematic. The brain is fairly elastic though and might therefore grow new neurones over time to cope. Franken-science is so much fun to speculate with!

I did hear about a guy who received a hand transplant. The operation itself was a success but he rejected it psychologically... looking at it and using it freaked him out too much and they had to cut it off. Some people can cope with that kind of transplant (and some have had full face transplants) but others not so much, even if they really want/need it.

I have a F2M friend. When he first outed himself to me, although I was happy for him I felt it was a shame there wasn't a way we could just swap bodies (before he started on T, obviously!) I'd have his short, very cute girly body and he'd have my towering, meh guy body. Don't know if we would have then assumed each others identities or what. Mind you, even if we were both very happy with that arrangement, I don't know if his boyfriend would have been!  :laugh:

The cells that make up external genitalia are homologous... All they need is the "correct" scaffold to grow on. Google "decellularisation" that's all you need (and stem cells)

Honestly that is sorta of frightening Technology to think about.

It could do a lot of good, but could you imagine people kidnapping people on the street and selling their bodies on the black market. Waa freaks me out just thinking about it ok sorry I watch a lot of scifi stuff.

Quote from: Aina on November 29, 2013, 11:45:05 PM
Honestly that is sorta of frightening Technology to think about.

It could do a lot of good, but could you imagine people kidnapping people on the street and selling their bodies on the black market. Waa freaks me out just thinking about it ok sorry I watch a lot of scifi stuff.

Sci fi thrives on worst case scenarios. Where else would "teh dramaz" come from?  ;)

Quote from: Ms Grace on November 29, 2013, 11:51:28 PM
Sci fi thrives on worst case scenarios. Where else would "teh dramaz" come from?  ;)

So wait!!!! You mean prepping for a robot zombie apocalypse like what i saw on tv last night is pointless.....well crap...now what am i gonna do with the Turnkey Bunker i bought today....it was 50% off cuz of black Friday lol

Better safe than sorry!

Actually I have an old comic book from my Dad, I went looking for it.  The premise of the comic was very old rich people were hiring people to kidnap young healthy adults and switching bodies with them.

Still far-fetched but I wouldn't count it out if we had such technology.

Yet I like the idea of if we did have the technology, to use it it to help transgender people would be interesting. Still apart of me would rather them develop a way to change my sex so I am me but fully female me.

I had a professor once who use to say "Anything you can imagine or fathom is possible, it just we don't have the means to do it yet."

Course being me I use to argue I could fathom a four sided triangle just to cause a debate hehe...

Who's for a group buy on a medical grade 3d printer then ?? That and the collective intelligence on here, we'd be comparing CAD drawings in no time ! :laugh:

Seriously though, I can't see reproductive organs and associated tissues being that far away, as with a lot of medical technology, this will be accelerated by the military for body part regeneration as has been previously mentioned. The requirement for replacement reproductive organs for CIS females and breast tissue will also be a valid requirement for this tech. As trans individuals, it is entirely possible to reprogram our brains to use new or additional parts as well as find new pathways to bypass damaged old ones. The spare connectivity is already available in the spinal cord for use in the 'reprogramming' stage. We would just need to be patient and let our brain find the new pathways.

However, as with all this medical technology, we would (currently) be at the bottom of the list  :( . Even the HRT we use or will eventually get to use provides us with desirable side effects. We don't currently use meds that are developed specifically for us.

Anyways, in anticipation, I'm firing up Solidworks to design boobs version 1......   :P

Quote from: nikkit72 on November 30, 2013, 05:49:10 AM
Anyways, in anticipation, I'm firing up Solidworks to design boobs version 1......   :P

LOL okay Rhino3D over here.. I call pelvis :D :D

Quote from: nikkit72 on November 30, 2013, 05:49:10 AM
Seriously though, I can't see reproductive organs and associated tissues being that far away, as with a lot of medical technology, this will be accelerated by the military for body part regeneration as has been previously mentioned.

Taking it a step further...once they've figured out how to 3D print organs and body parts/limbs why not...a whole body! Any difference from the original would simply require a specific module. Then it's a case of working out how to transfer (not transplant) the mind and no one would ever need operations for anything anymore!

I love where this is going :D :D

hahaha

While that would be lovely, Grace, I don't expect that in my lifetime. But I would take ovaries, even without the fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix, etc. Those alone would remove the need for an external source of hormones. And besides, unless we get into serious life extension, I'm a wee bit past childbearing age. :)

Note: That is the one thing I wanted all my life that even as I transition now, I know I could not nor ever in the foreseeable future have - to carry and bear a child. But you know what? Some of those trans children that are 5, 6, 7 years old today? They might get that chance someday. Maybe. :)

Quote from: Ms Grace on November 30, 2013, 01:00:45 PM
Taking it a step further...once they've figured out how to 3D print organs and body parts/limbs why not...a whole body! Any difference from the original would simply require a specific module. Then it's a case of working out how to transfer (not transplant) the mind and no one would ever need operations for anything anymore!

Cylons.. o.o

Quote from: Isabelle on November 29, 2013, 09:00:10 PM
They have already printed a penis for a rabbit that was functional. The research is being funded by us military research groups who are looking at ways to help young soldiers with injuries cause by IEDs (they often explode and damage the legs and andogenital regions) With 3d printing though, it's not tissue they print, it's a type of lattice that stem cells are encouraged to grow on, the scaffold/lattice dissolves and leaves the part.

The science is really amazing.  In addition to researching the creation of new penises for veterans, the good folks at Wake Forest Regenerative are also hard at work creating ovaries.  Here's a quote from health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2013/03/29/artificial-ovaries-could-potentially-deliver-hormone-therapy ...
"In this study, a team from the Institute of Regenerative Medicine at Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center reported that ovaries created in the lab showed sustained release of the female sex hormones estrogen and progesterone."  (The work on a functioning human penis has also come a long way.)

We've also learned how to turn off entire chromosomes in the lab. So far they've focused on turning off the extra chromosome responsible for down syndrome,
( www.cbsnews.com/news/scientists-figure-out-how-to-turn-off-down-syndrome-in-laboratory ), but there has also been work done in deactivating x chromosomes and in altering the y chromosome.  Research is also showing that it is only a portion of the y chromosome that codes for male development.
( www.newscientist.com/article/dn16934-girl-with-y-chromosome-sheds-light-on-maleness.html ).

Another big area of research for 3d printers is bone replacement therapy.  While the current focus is on replacing joints and fractured bones, once it becomes common place it will only be a matter of time before someone sells vanity bone replacements.  Stronger joints for athletes, taller leg bones, wider pelvises, wider or narrower shoulders.

As to whether any of this will happen in our lifetimes...  So much has already happened in the last 50 years that nobody could have imagined.  Computers have gone from 10 GB mainframes that fill a warehouse to 128Gb computers that can fit in a watch or a camera. Genetics has gone from determining what sex your unborn child is, to DNA identification and being able to convert normal skin cells into embryonic stem cells.  And gender rights and sexual reassignment have gone from being a shameful perversion to being a right of self determination that we are fighting for 6-yr old children to have.  I have great hopes that things will change in my lifetime.

Te science really is amazing and I believe that there are wonderful things to come for us. Hopefully in the not too distant future. I am also hoping that social stigmas, bigotry and hate, do not hinder this progress for the likes of us.

Quote from: Ashey on November 30, 2013, 03:21:18 PM
Cylons.. o.o

If I could fall asleep in the bath tub and wake up with Six's body I'd be a happy girl. ;D

Quote from: Aina on November 30, 2013, 01:01:13 AM
Actually I have an old comic book from my Dad, I went looking for it.  The premise of the comic was very old rich people were hiring people to kidnap young healthy adults and switching bodies with them.

Did you ever see "The Skeleton Key"? It had the same kind of premise, but with magic. Very creepy...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 29, 2013, 09:48:51 PM
It probably wouldn't be functional because the MTF brain is not wired to use ovaries and the FTM brain is not wired to use a penis. It'd be like putting a third arm on your body. Not only would you have to send nerves and blood vessels to the area, but you would have to somehow restructure the brain to USE the parts. If it were possible to do that, many health issues would be a thing of the past, such as menopause, many thyroid issues, and mental development issues.

Sorry, but a functional vagina w/ ovaries for a MTF is probably the last thing on the list for science to accomplish =/

Then explain the phantom penis thing.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 01, 2013, 10:54:31 PM
Then explain the phantom penis thing.

My phantom boobs are bigger than my real boobs.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 01, 2013, 10:54:31 PM
Then explain the phantom penis thing.

That particular Star Wars movie was inexplicable and best forgotten...

...

oh, phantom penis!!!!! Sorry, I though you meant The Phantom Menace.

never mind then.  ;)

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on November 29, 2013, 09:48:51 PM
It probably wouldn't be functional because the MTF brain is not wired to use ovaries and the FTM brain is not wired to use a penis. It'd be like putting a third arm on your body. Not only would you have to send nerves and blood vessels to the area, but you would have to somehow restructure the brain to USE the parts.

Actually the wiring of the brain and body may not be a huge obstacle.  Despite everything, male and female goodies have a lot in common.  A functional example of sex change occurs in clownfish. During their male phase clownfish gonads have a mixture of mature testicular tissue and immature ovarian tissue.  When it comes time to change the ovarian tissue matures and the testicular tissue atrophies.  This mix of tissues isn't limited to clownfish.  One of the human intersex conditions involves ovo-testes.  Ovotestes are gonads containing both ovarian and testicular tissue. Same brain, nerves and blood supply but two types of gonadal tissue.

(The bigger issue here is probably the functioning of the uterus. Science is already working on ovarian and testicular grafting and xenografting to save endangered species, but I'm not aware of any research on building a replacement uterus.)

As far as penises go... One of the primary physical responses to arousal is vasocongestion.  This increased flow of of blood to the genitals occurs in both men and women.    The same response that causes the penis to become erect is also at work in the clitoris and labia. Part of the bioengineering work being done by Dr. Atala is with erectile tissue.  If the erectile tissue is taken care of then it is just a matter of altering the plumbing.

Men and Women already have similar structures and responses in place and in many respects are wired similarly, but a lot of how we work isn't strictly wiring. There are certainly nerves involved but a lot of how we function depends on the hormonal/chemical soup that is sloshing around our bodies. And who doesn't like hormones.