Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm noticing more and more that every famous transgender artist, writer, actor, really anyone is either transitioning after becoming successful or completely passible.  It makes me begin to wonder what the impact of this would be on my own aspirations!  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it stands to reason that even among a mostly accepting crowd there's bound to be a glass celling for those of us who have no choice but to live openly.  I feel like I'm in a cycle right now-I need to be passible so I can make money so I can make my self passible so I can have a career...it's ridiculous really, especially because I'm non-binary, but this still keeps darting through my head.  Sometimes I pass, other times I don't...at any rate, I'm far from being able to just put this whole sorry affair behind me without having some heavy face and chest work done.  I feel like I'm driving myself insane!  Thoughts?

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 30, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
Thoughts?

I know many trans women who do not pass and never will and yet are thrilled with their transitions. Most of them are financially successful and continue to work at prestigious jobs.

The pressure to pass causes anxiety in myself that they don't have. Since I know I CAN pass sometimes, but only if I get all the details right, it makes me sort of paranoid that I got something wrong. Missed a spot with my makeup and beard shadow shows through. Wig is crooked. Patch of skin with body hair exposed, etc.

However, the reactions of people when I know they see me only as a natal female provides a euphoria that is unparalleled among anything else I've ever felt in my life. It's like a drug high, and like that other type of high, it can be very addicting.

I think it is important to pass. You want people to take you serious as the gender you're switching too. Therefore I think it is very important to pass. For many reasons.

I find confidence is way more important then if you think you are passible. Every single person in the world looks different. So who is to say you pass or do not. If you have confidence in your gender then you are you.

Isabell

I think the answer depends on the person.  I know some trans* people for whom passing is the worst possible thing that could happen.  I know others for whom passing is the whole point and getting clocked is the worst disaster.

I have to admit it seems like not caring would be freeing.  I, for example, had the recent of experience of going to HRC's national headquarters with another trans* activist to talk about trans* unemployment.  I got clocked as being trans* while there and it really shook me up.  Now think about that . . . I'm at HRC headquarters . . . I'm with another activist . . . And I'm there to talk about trans* issues.  Is there any way to not get clocked in that situation??  So why be upset about it?  Because I am a person who is obsessed with blending into that cis normative world.  Sometimes I wonder if I might be more relaxed and happier if I were one who didn't care about it. 

A gender therapist told me a former client of hers (she never mentioned names or anything) is now living successfully as a woman and no longer acknowledges or says hello to the therapist if she sees her in the street because she doesn't want people to realise she's trans*.

The very first transwoman I ever saw in person was an academic at my university back in 1988, she would have been in her late fifties I guess, and to be honest, if someone hadn't told me she was presenting as female I wouldn't have realised. She appeared to my, admittedly unnuanced eyes and ears, to be a pudgy deep voiced man with moobs, a pony tail, tee shirt, jeans and women's flat heeled shoes. But she had a female name and was presenting as female, she was a successful academic and clearly was happy, comfortable and confident being herself. (About a year later I came out to myself and tried to arrange a meeting with her to chat but unfortunately it never happened.)

It differs from person to person.  Passing is very important to me.  Sometimes though, the expectations I give myself are really beyond fair.  I'm very hard on myself.  Still, that's not always a bad thing because it can set me up to achieve more than I would have done otherwise.  All in all, I would say to do what's right for you.

If you are talking strictly about the entertainment field, then I would imagine passing probably is very important.  Whether it should be this way or not, the entertainment field is very much focused on looks and image.  Someone who doesn't pass would find it hard to breakthrough with all that pressure, especially since there is a bunch of non-trans expectations for entertainers.  There are those who can find their niche and break conventions, but it's a bit more difficult to do that in a field that can be very shallow with visuals.  Having said that, the most respected people in artistic crowds are those who go against the grain.  You never know. 

Passing us important depending on your age, goals, location etc. if you want to work around kids in the south. You probably need to pass.

Passing to myself is the only person I worry about. :) As long as I am true to myself who cares what others think. I am a confident woman full of self worth and finally free. :)

I think, in regards to having a career in the arts really depends on if you're performing for how passable you need to be for people to not discriminate against you. I understand your worries of not being able to make a name for yourself as an artist and pursue your dreams, because you feel as if people won't take a trans artist that doesn't pass well enough seriously. I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth... However, I plan on pursuing my career in performing piano as a classically trained musician. There's many musicians around me on a daily basis, and although much of entertainment is so fueled on looks, I see everyday that many of the average people I knew have gone onto be successful artists. I guess what I'm trying to say is that usually when it comes to being an artist, if you are good at what you do, people don't seem to care about what you look like too much, it's only an added bonus if you have a look that captures people's attention positively, not a requirement (except maybe in acting and pop music). Anyway, just based on your profile picture, I'd say you pass just fine, if passing is what you're most worried about.

"Passing" is all about "Who you are, between the ears."  Irrespective of gender, if you lack your own self confidence, self respect, identity as a person, you'll get "clocked" simply as that. As who you perceive yourself internally, you'll be perceived externally by others, perhaps even less so, as they don't understand you. This is all part of the non verbal communication/signals/vibes you are sending out about yourself; as a person.

Now add gender to the equation and you've compounded the situation substantially.

Take time out. Get to know the REAL you, deep down inside. Let this grow, mature and radiate outwardly, so there can be NO mistake as to who you really are.

You WILL be pleasantly surprised to find that strong, loveable, compassionate person; and so will everyone else you meet will too.

It's your decision. And it's only one decision away. You can do it now. This choice is yours.

Huggs
Catherine

As a musician this same thing bothers me. I'm wondering what's going to become of my stage life and such as I continue to transition. I do at least 3-4 gigs per month, on top of teaching private music lessons and doing some guitar repair work.

I'm starting HRT soon. I suppose how quickly and how big the changes are for me will determine how quickly I start presenting on stage. I'm just worried that I won't get passable enough to go on stage, or that my body will get stuck in some strange middle-spot between genders where I don't pass well as either.

Ath,

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  Change happens slowly; It took me the better part of a year to notice anything, though now I'm actually a bit surprised with the results, I'm getting...so there isn't much consistency.  I have a good friend who is an actor; he's had to get by on both female and male parts. 

On the other hand, who knows?  It might do you some good to go onstage as yourself.  Confidence always means a better performance, and while I don't deny that the "trans as a gimmick" attitude is disgusting, people will notice you more, and sometimes that can be a good thing...hang in there though. 

Hi ath,

Quote from: ath on February 09, 2014, 07:57:23 AM
.........  I'm just worried that I won't get passable enough to go on stage, or that my body will get stuck in some strange middle-spot between genders where I don't pass well as either.

Lessons and repair work won't really matter. That can be done on a case by case basis. On stage work will be the biggest challenge, based on which voice you want to project. Certainly guitar straps placed in the wrong way can reveal body developments over time.

Absolute confidence, self respect and attitude will be the influencing factors that will carry your changes off.

Huggs
Catherine

Passing is important to me, but so is living. The other night I walked in the rain and looked up and smiled and lived my life. It was the best feeling in the world. For that moment I didn't care about my hair and make up and anything else. I was in a busy part of town in the middle of the street. I wanted to fall on my knees and look up and sing.

Quote from: TiffanyT on February 10, 2014, 02:40:12 AM
Passing is important to me, but so is living. The other night I walked in the rain and looked up and smiled and lived my life. It was the best feeling in the world. For that moment I didn't care about my hair and make up and anything else. I was in a busy part of town in the middle of the street. I wanted to fall on my knees and look up and sing.

That my sister is called passing :-*

Quote from: Cindy on February 10, 2014, 02:41:37 AM
That my sister is called passing :-*

Oh god, I'm crying.

Quote from: TiffanyT on February 10, 2014, 02:45:42 AM
Oh god, I'm crying.

:icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:

Quote from: Cindy on February 10, 2014, 02:47:52 AM
:icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:

Thank you Cindy. I hurt so much. I needed this. I'm overwhelmed. I cry like crazy.

Honey, You are a very beautiful young woman. Never forget that. And your soul shines through your posts.

Have a nice cry, it's good!!

Quote from: Cindy on February 10, 2014, 02:58:34 AM
Honey, You are a very beautiful young woman. Never forget that. And your soul shines through your posts.

Have a nice cry, it's good!!

Ok, thank you. Jeez, I was not expecting to break down like this. Thank you for seeing beyond my attitude and stuff. Someday I'll be ok.

Quote from: TiffanyT on February 10, 2014, 03:12:31 AM
Ok, thank you. Jeez, I was not expecting to break down like this. Thank you for seeing beyond my attitude and stuff. Someday I'll be ok.

Sis, you were born into the wrong body, you have faced the unimaginable horror of being transgender. You are coping with it. You walk a path only other transgender people know. It is one of the hardest paths anyone can walk.

You have had attitude? Who in the goddesses name doesn't?

You are family here and we all love you.

Never ever forget that.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on February 10, 2014, 02:27:13 AM
Hi ath,
Lessons and repair work won't really matter. That can be done on a case by case basis. On stage work will be the biggest challenge, based on which voice you want to project. Certainly guitar straps placed in the wrong way can reveal body developments over time.

Absolute confidence, self respect and attitude will be the influencing factors that will carry your changes off.

Huggs
Catherine

Hmm, the guitar strap issue hadn't really occurred to me. I'll have to be careful.

I'm not really worried about my voice, since I'm fine with not singing. Right now two of the bands I'm in are just me on keys, and a singer. I do sing lead in one band right now but we are trying to get a dedicated vocalist (I play guitar and keys in that one). I don't know if I'd be able to make myself sound like a female when singing, so until I've worked on it more I'll pretty much just not sing on stage. Unless in boymode. Kind of sucks considering being able to do backup or lead vocals is a nice skill to have.

Hi ath,

Quote from: ath on February 10, 2014, 02:00:16 PM
.........Kind of sucks considering being able to do backup or lead vocals is a nice skill to have.

Appears you've placed yourself well in both bands. If the above quote did become an issue, at least for backup vocals, you could play round with auto pitch software to get up to female pitch. The only difficulty with that approach is you'd have to prerecord and mime.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on February 11, 2014, 08:03:23 AM
Hi ath,
Appears you've placed yourself well in both bands. If the above quote did become an issue, at least for backup vocals, you could play round with auto pitch software to get up to female pitch. The only difficulty with that approach is you'd have to prerecord and mime.

Huggs
Catherine

Sadly it's not the pitch that's the problem for me. I have a 5 octave range. It's the tone and resonance of my singing voice. Even way high up it sounds male. I suppose I just need to practice singing like a girl more, but so far I don't think I've quite been able to nail the sound. I've gotten a good deal of practice talking with a female voice, and I'd be ok talking on stage, but it doesn't quite transfer over to singing so well.

If you have a five octave vocal range, male, female, no matter what you are, you'll get noticed for the right reasons.  I think among artists especially it's more about the voice than the singer.  If you can perform that sort of acrobatics, the only person who'll be judging you is you.

Your life is more important than passing. Passing is nearly meaningless to me.
People just think that I am a man who want to express femininity.
Of course, strangers recognize me as a woman, and that is their business, not mine.

barbie~~

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on February 11, 2014, 08:49:38 PM
If you have a five octave vocal range, male, female, no matter what you are, you'll get noticed for the right reasons.  I think among artists especially it's more about the voice than the singer.  If you can perform that sort of acrobatics, the only person who'll be judging you is you.

You're probably right, I should just say screw it and sing however sounds the best. I've been trying to create a good female singing voice, but it's sort of like learning to sing over again. Trying to sing like a girl seriously cuts back my volume and just power behind it, and it kind of messes with the points I usually switch registers in a bad way. Plus I've noticed it's quite hard on my voice, and I don't want to screw up my total range or just speaking voice by damaging it.

Maybe my female singing voice is fine, but I think I set way too high standards for myself. I'm just a bit afraid of audiences getting scared off or judging me based off of my appearance and voice clashing.

http://feminizationsecrets.com/should-you-give-up-your-goal-of-passing-as-a-woman/

Quote from: valsharae on March 06, 2014, 12:32:15 AM
http://feminizationsecrets.com/should-you-give-up-your-goal-of-passing-as-a-woman/

Yes. The exactly same conclusion I have reached.

barbie~~

It's funny how much time we spend worrying about passing early in transition. A friend once told me when you start living as yourself all the time you stop worrying about passing and just start living. And she was right I can say that you really do get to that point where your just out as yourself and you don't worry about what others think. Life isn't about passing as something it's all about living and being true to yourself. ;)

Quote from: Heather on March 06, 2014, 08:24:48 AM
It's funny how much time we spend worrying about passing early in transition. A friend once told me when you start living as yourself all the time you stop worrying about passing and just start living. And she was right I can say that you really do get to that point where your just out as yourself and you don't worry about what others think. Life isn't about passing as something it's all about living and being true to yourself. ;)

THIS.     ^^^^^^^^^^^.  +10

As someone at the very beginning of this road - for me it really isn't really about not passing, its about being accepted when I don't. I am among the many who want to be liked (or at least tolerated) by everyone. I don't want to be judged harshly or even thought to be a freak. My only option though is to be me and to gradually get used to people seeing and doing what they will. I know I can't control them. I can just be real in real life.

Quote from: Heather on March 06, 2014, 08:24:48 AM
Life isn't about passing as something it's all about living and being true to yourself. ;)

I agree.

But...

When I pass, I am treated differently. I wish I didn't totally bask in being treated by members of my new gender as if I were totally one of them, but it really is like no feeling on earth.

Di Di,

I think you don't care as much because you're still earlier into your transition.  When I was just starting out two years ago, it was all about being myself too...but now, I really want to be able to go outside without being dehumanized, pointed and stared at, and sometimes harassed or even threatened.  There is no denying that people treat you differently when they know you are trans, and while I take pride in living openly, it's nice to have a small amount of privacy. When I spend fourty five minutes doing my makeup as opposed to twenty, everyone sees me differently, and I'm really sick of that.

For some who have a reasonable chance passing is very important, and let me say that If I looked like our girlfriend TiffanyT passing would be very important to me and quite frankly I wish so much that I did.

Then there are those of us like myself who due to genetics, bone structure, years of masculinizing wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing ever under any circumstances, then it all becomes an academic study of let's drop the delusion and deal with reality. I have done that and walk out the door every day and interface with other human beings of all stripes and persuasions as just me, the androgynous person. If those of us who fit in that second category refuse to accept that and learn to deal with reality, then sadly they are destined to live in miserable, cringing solitude the rest of their lives. I don't wish that on anybody!

Quote from: valsharae on March 06, 2014, 12:32:15 AM
http://feminizationsecrets.com/should-you-give-up-your-goal-of-passing-as-a-woman/

I admire this attitude, and would like to be there myself someday. However...

I think the focus on passing is not just a question of accepting one's identity, but also of self esteem. The idea that "I don't care what people see me as" is not readily accessible to those of us that are not confident in ourselves. And if you figure out how to get more confidence, let me know, because they were all out at the store when I went looking :P

I may be ok and even happy with who I am, inside, but how do I break my dependance on acceptance of others? This may just be a personality thing too.

Quote from: JesseG on March 06, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
I admire this attitude, and would like to be there myself someday. However...

I think the focus on passing is not just a question of accepting one's identity, but also of self esteem. The idea that "I don't care what people see me as" is not readily accessible to those of us that are not confident in ourselves. And if you figure out how to get more confidence, let me know, because they were all out at the store when I went looking :P

I may be ok and even happy with who I am, inside, but how do I break my dependance on acceptance of others? This may just be a personality thing too.

I think what you are saying is true for most people and I highlighted what is really the crux of the problem for most. I suppose that my type-A personality has carried me past that concern and it has been easy for me, though I know it's a very difficult bridge to cross for many.

Quote from: JesseG on March 06, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
I admire this attitude, and would like to be there myself someday. However...

I think the focus on passing is not just a question of accepting one's identity, but also of self esteem. The idea that "I don't care what people see me as" is not readily accessible to those of us that are not confident in ourselves. And if you figure out how to get more confidence, let me know, because they were all out at the store when I went looking :P

I may be ok and even happy with who I am, inside, but how do I break my dependance on acceptance of others? This may just be a personality thing too.

The dependency of acceptance from others is what plagues me as well.  All I can say is that I haven't found the cure, but therapy and hard work is helping me make slight improvements more and more.  Though my therapist does mainly gender issues and lately I've been considering seeing a cbt specialist to help "reprogram" my fraidy cat thought patterns, lol.  Have you tried a therapist?

Hi JesseG,

Quote from: JesseG on March 06, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
I may be ok and even happy with who I am, inside, but how do I break my dependance on acceptance of others?

Congratulations, you've found the key. Be happy with who you are on the inside, and gently lead her to the outside.

One thing I can guarentee. You have absolutely, no chance, of anyone accepting you. That's entirely up to them. You have NO control over that, EVER.

So why waste your time waiting for it? As soon as you bring that inner woman out, the sooner you'll be happy. Start thinking about yourself and work on what you can work on. DON'T worry about anyone else.

They're the facts that will NEVER change.

Huggs
Catherine

Catharine,

That's simply not true though!  It feels nice and liberating to say "I don't care about all of that, so long as I'M happy, but in the end, that's untrue!  No gender-nonspecific person is an island, and I think the reason this process has been hardest on me personally is because of how isolating it all can be. 

I desperately cling to this notion that some day, with enough money to invest in my face I'll be able to pass, even though it's probably a pipe dream, and the reason I do so is because I personally can't make it through my life alone.  I'm sure I'll one day realize that it's out of reach, and when I do, it'll crush me...or perhaps I'm just being morbid.  But anyways...If you can be your own is;and, I admire your strength, but pride isn't enough for me personally.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 06, 2014, 11:22:32 AM
I agree.

But...

When I pass, I am treated differently. I wish I didn't totally bask in being treated by members of my new gender as if I were totally one of them, but it really is like no feeling on earth.

I hate the whole word pass. It's like your saying I'm pretending to be something! When a woman goes out in public she's just being herself and not every person is treated the same way it really depends on whole lot of factors than than looking male or female age and attractiveness play a big role. While yes when people know your trans they can treat you different at first. I'm out at work and for the most part I'm pretty much treated as one of the women. We have girl talk we talk about men and dating the point is it basically comes down to the person you are is why people treat you the way they do. Even if your trans a lot of people will over look it if you show them your not what they see on TV. ;)

Quote from: Heather on March 06, 2014, 11:28:31 PM
I hate the whole word pass.

Is there another word you would suggest to describe our effort to make it so that our passage from one sex to another is not the first thing people notice when they meet us?

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 07, 2014, 05:45:49 AM
Is there another word you would suggest to describe our effort to make it so that our passage from one sex to another is not the first thing people notice when they meet us?

Yes I do it's called living and it's all how you look at things. But passing and passage are two separate words and are used to mean completely separate things. And besides how do you ever really know your being seen as the gender you want them to see you as? Unless you can read minds you never really know. So that's why I say at some point you just start living because really did you transition for other people or did you transition to be yourself?

Quote from: Heather on March 07, 2014, 07:37:46 AM
Yes I do it's called living and it's all how you look at things. But passing and passage are two separate words and are used to mean completely separate things. And besides how do you ever really know your being seen as the gender you want them to see you as? Unless you can read minds you never really know. So that's why I say at some point you just start living because really did you transition for other people or did you transition to be yourself?

I transition for myself!

Society/media makes women feel like they aren't a woman unless they are very beautiful with nice asses, nice boobs, and a nice feminine face free of wrinkles and with lots of makeup. They spend all their money always achieving that perfection that they might not even reach and then become frustrated, angry, and fearful. Society only knows one kind of woman. It disregards the whole spectrum of women out there. From what I hear, this is more rampant in the United States than other countries/tribes/cultures. I think United Kingdom is one country that doesn't stress so much on this beauty thing.

Desiring to look beautiful and feminine is a good idea. If you can pass you can pass, but if you can't pass then what? Will you start hating yourself or will you accept yourself? Beauty is but a temporary condition in youth. What would you do when you grow old, wrinkly, and have white hair?


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgQjfcpG7XY#t=51

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 08, 2014, 10:21:51 PM
Passing to myself is the only person I worry about. :) As long as I am true to myself who cares what others think. I am a confident woman full of self worth and finally free. :)

Sooo true for me as well. Every day I like what I see more and more!  ;D

It's really easy to be happy with yourself-but when you live in a world where people like us can get killed for just walking down the street, or live the rest of your life alone because there is nobody out there who can overlook how your genetics have betrayed you-I don't care for my body, but that's not why I want to pass or why I feel like my transition has failed in many ways.  It's because I'm still treated as less than a human being, and I still feel like a fake woman on account of that.  No person is an island, and even if you love yourself many of us still aren't complete until we are loved.

I feel ones life is ones life.

If you spend all your time running through a field of flowers you will never see or smell the beauty.

I gave up early on what the community says we must pass!

I am me. I am female. I hold my personal values. I learned to trust my confidence.

I kept myself out of areas i felt unsafe. I looked back in the community for a relationship.

Today its all done, friends, family, spouse and children.

So stop running and doing what you think you are supposed to do and live in the moment of beautiful flowers and lovely smells. (metaphorically speaking)

No one needs to know who does not need to know.

You are you.

Listen.  I respect people who only care about loving themselvs, I really do.  But I have a career to worry about.  I'm a professional artist, and the theatre world is NOT as accepting as you'd think.  My "community" doesn't seem to give a damn about me, especialy when it comes to dating.  I can't just stay away from places I feel unsafe either, I live in New York City.  I can't really live in the moment when the moment is excruciatingly painful. 

I think passing is overrated. People who now look at me sometimes tell it is easy for me to say but they do not know me in real life. I am tall, stand out and not to forget to mention that a year ago or two I heard quite short hair and also wore feminine clothing. As soon as you start to not care as much anymore it becomes less of a problem. That is if you really don't care, and don't pretend to, to get off the negativity easier.

As what you want to pass anyway? Even everyday women get all kind of complaints for not looking exactly like the perfect standards. And even perfect standards depend on each his or her opinion o.o.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 16, 2014, 11:05:34 PM
Listen.  I respect people who only care about loving themselvs, I really do.  But I have a career to worry about.  I'm a professional artist, and the theatre world is NOT as accepting as you'd think.  My "community" doesn't seem to give a damn about me, especialy when it comes to dating.  I can't just stay away from places I feel unsafe either, I live in New York City.  I can't really live in the moment when the moment is excruciatingly painful.

Then you can't. You are the one who has to say I can.

You asked I gave a life prospective of what has worked.

As I said your life is your life.

Best in your path.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 16, 2014, 11:05:34 PM
Listen.  I respect people who only care about loving themselvs, I really do.  But I have a career to worry about.  I'm a professional artist, and the theatre world is NOT as accepting as you'd think.  My "community" doesn't seem to give a damn about me, especialy when it comes to dating.  I can't just stay away from places I feel unsafe either, I live in New York City.  I can't really live in the moment when the moment is excruciatingly painful.

My question is whether the blue lipstick is popular in New York City now.

barbie~~

Hahaha, queer girls like it.  Don't usually do anything bolder than a purple outside those circles :)

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 16, 2014, 11:05:34 PM
Listen.  I respect people who only care about loving themselvs, I really do.  But I have a career to worry about.  I'm a professional artist, and the theatre world is NOT as accepting as you'd think.  My "community" doesn't seem to give a damn about me, especialy when it comes to dating.  I can't just stay away from places I feel unsafe either, I live in New York City.  I can't really live in the moment when the moment is excruciatingly painful.

Hi Androgynous painter - I think you said you were non-binary, and that kinda well puts you in a situation of.... what exactly?  Your avatar shows a highly attractive person, beyond the restrictions of rigid gender labels.  There are many people who are strongly attracted to androgyny and all that comes with it, but the key word you used was "professional".  In a work context that's mostly what counts, and I would have thought that a certain notoriety in the art world might be good for a career.  Grayson Perry might be an example here...

Forgive me for this, but is some of your discomfort coming from a conclusion that you feel you are scaring or inadvertently threatening or alienating people with how you present as a person?  If that's the case, how would you balance being true to yourself and smoothing the way for yourself in social and professional situations?   I mean, naturists don't walk about the city naked (well, not usually), but it's a rather core part of who they are.

I feel that we haven't really got to the nub of your question.  Is it professional acceptance, or the issues relating to finding a partner, or are both related to something else we haven't got to yet?

Regards
Julia

That's a good question-I identify as female actually, but also nonbinary.  And the professional end is...well, I work in theatre, so usually people are accepting  But not always.  If they have an issue with me, it'd be the trans bit, not the presentation or anything.

I am worried about alienating people, that's exactly right.  But the solution there is to pass, right?  I mean, I am female, and I'd like to be seen as such.  That's all...what else could I do?  Present as male?  I see no point it that, that's not who I am or how I want to live.

My worries?  My career will probably be ok.  My biggest issue is the bit about finding a partner, to be honest.  Not sure what to do about that, and I've tried everything.

Ms Painter, I fully understand your concerns about getting a partner.  I'm in my 40s, and have had a couple of long term relationships ever since my 20s.  Divorced, and transitioning, I do ask whether I will enjoy that emotional and physical intimacy again.

Fundamentally I think it's a question of attitude.  People talk about plenty of fish, but for most of us we truly only experience about three or so occasions when we meet someone with whom we really resonate.  I think this is regardless of orientation and gender identity. 

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that, if you make yourself available to possible opportunities, and you present yourself as an attractive person (psychologically and intellectually more than physically) then luck has a way of causing the right people to turn up.  Of course only a part of that can be attributed to luck. But you see where I am going. 

Quote from: Julia-Madrid on October 21, 2014, 06:15:26 PM
Fundamentally I think it's a question of attitude.  People talk about plenty of fish, but for most of us we truly only experience about three or so occasions when we meet someone with whom we really resonate.

I think there's a bit more to it. For some people there is a large variety with whom they might successfully connect. For those, finding a mate is will happen more quickly. For others, (perhaps those who are more "complicated") there are much fewer. Those folks might find it more frustrating because what they're looking for is a rarer mix. Make sense?

Suzy, I agree.  Let's start with the fact that I'm not interested in dating men...that I want to be with people who are artists, who are interesting...it's very hard, and for me it really is a question of "can I find anyone I like who likes me back".  I've met a few people before I was crazy about, but they never liked me.  The trans* issue was a part of that. 

Also.  Julia.  You're 40!?!?!?!?!?!?!  Oh my god, If I age as well as you have my life will be a sucess.

To me it's very important --- it's pretty much the most important thing.

My family has already told me they cannot see me as a woman until I look like one. If that's how my folks who are supportive feel, then I can only imagine that any random person on the street definitely won't consider me a woman until I look passable. My career will put me in a position with a ton of in-person interaction so my options or to be passable or be jobless. Luckily my parents are helping me fund my transition including FFS and voice surgery so I have hope for the future.

The problem now is trying to not cry every time I see myself in the mirror until I do get FFS. I know I need to let hormones work for a while before surgery but the wait is killing me!

I guess for me passing isn't more important than being myself - I wanna pass as me basically, whatever that entails! But I am aware of how people's interractions with me are affected by their perception of my gender so I think it's important to at least be at a point where people aren't sure either way!

This is very much my current position, though. I think it's likely that passing will be more important when I finish uni!

I personally don't see it as all that big of a deal. I mean, yeah, it's something I want to be one day, but I feel like everyone can & will be passable with enough years on HRT. Like, it's not INSANELY important to me. I don't see what the big deal is about looking 100% completely like a female in the shortest amount of time possible. Just take your hormones, live your life, & don't worry about how people perceive you. They'll either A. find you attractive or B. won't find you attractive. Regardless of what they register you as in their brain. Other peoples opinions aren't what drive someone's life & if they are then who are they really living for? Others? I know no one on this site will say that they transitioned for acceptance of others.

So, yeah. To me, passibility is nice, but not necessary for me at this point in time. I have no doubt in my mind that I will be very passable one day so I don't let it bother me.

I thought I would pass without question after a few years on hormones too.  Just keep in mind that you might be wrong-I was, and it's causing me a lot of emotional discomfort.  Nobody should go into transition expecting or not expecting to pass.  You need to be prepared to be treated as a freak for the rest of your life.  It may not turn out that way, but just as likely it shall.  That's the risk we take.

As long as I'm treated and referred to as a woman I really don't mind if I pass or not.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 30, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
I'm noticing more and more that every famous transgender artist, writer, actor, really anyone is either transitioning after becoming successful or completely passible.  It makes me begin to wonder what the impact of this would be on my own aspirations!  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it stands to reason that even among a mostly accepting crowd there's bound to be a glass celling for those of us who have no choice but to live openly.  I feel like I'm in a cycle right now-I need to be passible so I can make money so I can make my self passible so I can have a career...it's ridiculous really, especially because I'm non-binary, but this still keeps darting through my head.  Sometimes I pass, other times I don't...at any rate, I'm far from being able to just put this whole sorry affair behind me without having some heavy face and chest work done.  I feel like I'm driving myself insane!  Thoughts?

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 01, 2014, 07:34:02 PM
I thought I would pass without question after a few years on hormones too.  Just keep in mind that you might be wrong-I was, and it's causing me a lot of emotional discomfort.  Nobody should go into transition expecting or not expecting to pass.  You need to be prepared to be treated as a freak for the rest of your life.  It may not turn out that way, but just as likely it shall.  That's the risk we take.

I'm not even going to address the topic. I want to know if you're OK. Always here if you want to talk.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 01, 2014, 07:34:02 PM
I thought I would pass without question after a few years on hormones too.  Just keep in mind that you might be wrong-I was, and it's causing me a lot of emotional discomfort.  Nobody should go into transition expecting or not expecting to pass.  You need to be prepared to be treated as a freak for the rest of your life.  It may not turn out that way, but just as likely it shall.  That's the risk we take.

I'm talking YEARS. Not sure how long you've been on hormones, but I doubt it's been 4+ years. Also, to have such a negative outlook is terrible. You might want to talk to a therapist about those perspective issues because many people have it way worse than us. Atleast we have free ability. Would you rather be comfortable with being cis but be paraplegic ? Probably not. Learn to be happy with the cards you're given & play the game to the best of your ability.

Edit: Actually, I'm sorry. I guess I'm just confident that one day I will be a passable person. I'm not sure what struggles you deal with or how bad your dysphoria is. I have to remind myself that we all have struggles. I still stand by my thoughts that whether you think you'll pass or not, you should atleast try to be happier with a better outlook on the subject because it's something you'll likely have to endure everyday as a trans individual.

Yeah...I'd sorta like this topic to die right now.  It's bringing up a lot of crises I'd rather avoid.  I'm not ok, but I'm not completely devistated either; in hopes of keeping it that way, I'm gonna delete the thread if people keep commenting :/

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 02, 2014, 01:31:54 AM
Yeah...I'd sorta like this topic to die right now.  It's bringing up a lot of crises I'd rather avoid.  I'm not ok, but I'm not completely devistated either; in hopes of keeping it that way, I'm gonna delete the thread if people keep commenting :/

Look I think the whole hugboxing attitude here can get toxic to some of us like you who tend to see the world in a more pragmatric light. The fact is you will be treated better if you pass, you will face less discrimination and your life will generally be better. That's the harsh truth. You can try rationalizing not passing any way you want but it's not going to make you feel better if you're anything like me when it comes to this subject.

Start looking at it logically and addressing each issue one by one. What is preventing you from passing? 95% of it is fixable in some way and the 5% you can't change won't clock you.

Voice?. Go practice. ANYONE can sound like a woman and you don't need amazing range to do it because you don't have yo sound like a pixie. Listen to a woman like Rachel Meadow talk - her voice is lower pitched than my natural voice and it still sounds 100% feminine.

Mannerisms? Just like voice, practice. Watch cis women and emulate.

Face? There's FFS.

Hair? Wig or transplant

Can't afford surgeries? Get a job and save up.

You have to realize that waiting for something to happen is bound to accomplish nothing. If you're not in school, go to college or a trade school. Get good grades. Come out of it and get a job. Being an artist is a great hobby but if you want to make it through your transition, you need to be reasonably financially independant. If that means playing a male for your job interview or for work, that's a sacrifice you're gonna have to make.

You won't be comfortable during your transition. Hell you probably won't be very happy either, but if passing is your end goal, you need to sit down and make the hard sacrifices to make it happen. Your transition will be hell but the point is to make it out of it with your goals achieved.

I know I'm gonna need plenty of work to be passable and living without SRS isn't something I can handle either, but I buckled down, got the navy to pay for my med school, put on my best guy mode every day and get through it for the next 3 years. Yeah it's unpleasant but the alternative leaves me $250k in debt and no shot at getting the procedures I want and living how i want before I'm 30.

From my experience being gendered appropriately by strangers has been 1/2 perceived gender expression 1/2 passibility. Being gendered correctly is pretty high up on my list of important things. When I'm not, I become completely unproductive and feel absolutely horrible and dwell on it. So for me, putting effort into the way I am expressing myself is my only option. Passibility is something that can be changed easily but I can control my presentation.

So yeah, I care some about passing. At least enough to make sure they are picking up what I am putting down.