Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Has there ever been any incidents or studies done on cis people going on transgender HRT regimens?

I just wonder if they experience some of the things we feel pre-HRT... though I can't see a study on that being very ethical ;)

Hmm, I haven't heard of any cis people undergoing HRT as extensively as trans people but I'm sure there are cases.

A lot of older women in my family recieved hormone therapy during menopause and after a hysterectomy but it wasn't the same, obviously. Though they now know there are risks involved don't be surprised if I do the same once I get hot flashes!  :D

I believe David Reimer did for a few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I have heard of someone fighting prostate cancer being on estrogen to battle it. I don't know how this affected him mentally.

Prostate cancer.  If you'd want an ethical study group, that would be one for you.  I also think triple-negative breast cancer might be on the list, but not totally positive on that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

He was convicted of being gay (basically) in the 50s and agreed to take estrogen instead of go to jail.  He committed suicide a couple years later.  He was a very influential mathematician and his death was a senseless loss.

I was just curious because of that argument... "this is how you'd feel too... if you had the wrong hormones" - I assume they'd have the same sort of general dysphoria that plagued me all day today.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 01, 2013, 07:16:48 AM
I believe David Reimer did for a few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

From wikipedia...

He was raised as a girl on estrogen treatments... so this is probably the best example of "making transgender" because of his botched circumcision as a MAAB child. He essentially detransitioned back to male status sometime between 1980 and 1997 (14 - 31 years old).

He committed suicide, but it doesn't appear to be directly related to hormones (though it was perhaps related to his overall condition).

Quote from: Jen on December 01, 2013, 04:48:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

He was convicted of being gay (basically) in the 50s and agreed to take estrogen instead of go to jail.  He committed suicide a couple years later.  He was a very influential mathematician and his death was a senseless loss.

Though the synthetic estrogen treatment ended a year prior to his suicide and only lasted a year...

You couldn't claim causation there at all for sure.  However,  I think we, of all people, know that subjecting your brain to the wrong sex hormones along with experiencing the horror of watching your body take on the wrong secondary sex characteristics can have dangerous and devastating effects on the psyche, as can being utterly rejected by society for who you are.  He went through all of those things.

Quote from: Jen on December 01, 2013, 07:11:18 PM
You couldn't claim causation there at all for sure.  However,  I think we, of all people, know that subjecting your brain to the wrong sex hormones along with experiencing the horror of watching your body take on the wrong secondary sex characteristics can have dangerous and devastating effects on the psyche, as can being utterly rejected by society for who you are.  He went through all of those things.

I definitely think that's part of it... for both of them.

I do not think it could have been hormonal. (Though if Turing were sufficiently neutered, the lack of hormones could have had an effect).

My therapist told me that cisguys on E usually end up miserable, cranky, irritable and depressed because they lack the estrogen receptors in their brains that release endorphines when they are fed estrogen.  When crossdressing cisguys take estrogen, they usually can't take the mental effects for very long. 

For me estrogen was exactly what my brain needed to function properly.  It was like I had PMS my whole life.

Not sure how true it is but I've heard glam punk rocker Michael Monroe has taken a low dose of HRT for many years.He's got great hair for a guy in his 50s

Quote from: Jill F on December 01, 2013, 08:33:27 PMFor me estrogen was exactly what my brain needed to function properly.  It was like I had PMS my whole life.

A BIG amen sister. I was mad at the whole world and burnt almost every bridge I traveled on. I had anger rages that scared a lot of people and did not make friends of anyone. Now I love everyone (almost) and apologize to everyone that will listen.

Quote from: Jill F on December 01, 2013, 08:33:27 PM
My therapist told me that cisguys on E usually end up miserable, cranky, irritable and depressed because they lack the estrogen receptors in their brains that release endorphines when they are fed estrogen. 

...and no doubt has an effect on their T levels (my endo used E to knock down my T)...so probably less thinking about and having sex...no wonder they were cranky and miserable!

If E can make me feel this good them I'm sure it would make a cis guy feel equally bad. Sort of like how I used to feel. :(

I believe I am a cis guy, as average as any other guy before I knew about ->-bleeped-<-. HRT works just as well for me.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 01, 2013, 07:28:37 AM
Prostate cancer.  If you'd want an ethical study group, that would be one for you.  I also think triple-negative breast cancer might be on the list, but not totally positive on that one.

Perhaps, but dealing with cancer is in and of itself very traumatic...so...it wouldn't be the most accurate because of course they'd feel terrible!

My parrents have and are both on homones. My mom is on an androgyne (mosty E) homone, and my father have been on testostorone.
-
theres also caise where female get testostorone or men gets estrogene.
Female with a low libido have ex been giving testostorone to get a higher sexdrive, and (obviously) some women in sport have also used it to cheat.

I know men have got Estrogene in a way to lower there sexualety if there jugded to be in risk for sexual molest or already have been there and are in threatment.
also theres other exemples, I dont remember for cancer, but this thing agenst baldness is also a kind of E I belive?
---

Quote from: Jill F on December 01, 2013, 08:33:27 PM
My therapist told me that cisguys on E usually end up miserable, cranky, irritable and depressed because they lack the estrogen receptors in their brains that release endorphines when they are fed estrogen.  When crossdressing cisguys take estrogen, they usually can't take the mental effects for very long. 

For me estrogen was exactly what my brain needed to function properly.  It was like I had PMS my whole life.

Let me give another AMEN! Seriously, for me it was like I realized I fixed screws I never ever knew were loose.

...I had the (dis)pleasure of living with a cross-dresser that decided to take estrogen haphazardly just to feminize, and was miserable and angry all the time. To make it worse, I would get told things like "but really you're a guy" and get called "dude", which was totally aggravating.

My endo said that if a guy was to take estrogen that would change his internal chemistry and he would eventually evolve into female. But we did not discuss mental effects though - I just asked if starting HRT would be some sort of transgender litmus test and she essentially stated that it is not.

Quote from: Andrea_LS on December 08, 2013, 02:38:25 AM
Let me give another AMEN! Seriously, for me it was like I realized I fixed screws I never ever knew were loose.

...I had the (dis)pleasure of living with a cross-dresser that decided to take estrogen haphazardly just to feminize, and was miserable and angry all the time. To make it worse, I would get told things like "but really you're a guy" and get called "dude", which was totally aggravating.

Wow... that does sound like a bad idea, then. I wonder if his E levels were normal (which if it wasn't done under an endo... probably not).

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on December 08, 2013, 03:02:24 AM
My endo said that if a guy was to take estrogen that would change his internal chemistry and he would eventually evolve into female. But we did not discuss mental effects though - I just asked if starting HRT would be some sort of transgender litmus test and she essentially stated that it is not.

It sounds as though she might be saying it shouldn't be used as a litmus test. I can't imagine that the number of people describing mental calming effects are wrong... even considering the placebo effect ;)

If a man taking estrogen would become female... than a woman taking testosterone would become male... which also would mean there's no such thing as transgender (except as a psychological condition). We know that isn't true!

Quote from: kabit on December 08, 2013, 05:12:27 AM

If a man taking estrogen would become female... than a woman taking testosterone would become male... which also would mean there's no such thing as transgender (except as a psychological condition). We know that isn't true!

Too simplistically put or perhaps misquoted. What is undeniable in both cases is that the person will begin to take on some of the secondary sex characteristics. YMMV. Never the less still pure simple biochemistry.

I am torn over an opinion on the calming effect of even low dose HRT on transsexual people. There is no doubt it occurs in many cases which is why low dose HRT is a treatment option for those not looking for, or ready yet for, a full transition. Many cases means not all so as in most hings in the real world there are other variables and or causes for the anxiety.

Since transsexualism carries a large social and even medical stigma I sincerely doubt anyone has done a double blind study of the effects of HRT on cis people. Even if they tried to, like how many TS's would would show up after seeing or hearing about the study for that 50:50 chance of getting HRT? How do you effectively screen for that? A simpler way is to do the study on a group of people with no rights, aka your military personnel. I doubt that lead zeppelin will fly.

Quote from: JoanneB on December 08, 2013, 07:26:57 AM
Too simplistically put or perhaps misquoted. What is undeniable in both cases is that the person will begin to take on some of the secondary sex characteristics. YMMV. Never the less still pure simple biochemistry.

I am torn over an opinion on the calming effect of even low dose HRT on transsexual people. There is no doubt it occurs in many cases which is why low dose HRT is a treatment option for those not looking for, or ready yet for, a full transition. Many cases means not all so as in most hings in the real world there are other variables and or causes for the anxiety.

Since transsexualism carries a large social and even medical stigma I sincerely doubt anyone has done a double blind study of the effects of HRT on cis people. Even if they tried to, like how many TS's would would show up after seeing or hearing about the study for that 50:50 chance of getting HRT? How do you effectively screen for that? A simpler way is to do the study on a group of people with no rights, aka your military personnel. I doubt that lead zeppelin will fly.

I don't think anyone said low dose. If the endo thinks that's all that makes a man or woman (which certainly sounds like she's talking about more than sex characteristics -- since it certainly doesn't change sexual inner workings) I think she's off base. I will be asking my endo about mind changes when I get there (2.5 weeks!!) and I know she partially specializes in transgender HRT.

It does sound over simplistic. Yes, a cis man going on AAs and E will experience changes to psyche... as would a cis woman on T. The question is whether those changes include the sort of hormonal dysphoria we experience because of our striking misbalance.

I was particularly asking her about adverse body reactions - not mental ones, but You know... all those TS urban myths how Your body is supposed to react to hormones if You are TS and if You aren't (except nobody can ever state specific examples apart of that calming effect, which, btw, not everyone is experiencing - as far as I have read). What she said was that I should not be expecting any such signs or feelings, and neither would a cis-guy. Also, please keep in mind that all this conversation took place quite a long time ago and I did not know many things back then and probably now my question would have been phrased differently :).

The case of doping in East Germany may be of some relevance.

Consider the case of shot-putter Andreas (née Heidi) Krieger..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Krieger

Quote from: EstroGwynne on December 08, 2013, 03:29:01 PM
The case of doping in East Germany may be of some relevance.

Consider the case of shot-putter Andreas (née Heidi) Krieger..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Krieger

Yet, the question remains whether Andreas Krieger had transsexualism before that notorious hormonal treatment? No diagnosis had been set, but article suggests so.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on December 09, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
Yet, the question remains whether Andreas Krieger had transsexualism before that notorious hormonal treatment? No diagnosis had been set, but article suggests so.

I suspect he did. I mention it because it's a case where cross-gender HRT was effectively forced on someone before they were ready, if nothing else. :(

Along a similar line, the culture of misguided transition in Iran (see the film Be Like Others) and the history of forced transitions in the South African military may be relevant.

Quote from: kabit on December 01, 2013, 06:43:06 AM
Has there ever been any incidents or studies done on cis people going on transgender HRT regimens?

I just wonder if they experience some of the things we feel pre-HRT... though I can't see a study on that being very ethical ;)

Yeah, there appears to be a lot of these people.

Some people realize that they don't have GID, and are gay instead.

They are called "de-transitioners",  although, we cannot assume all de-transitioners are gay, some people might have other motives.

Quote from: Jill F on December 01, 2013, 08:33:27 PM
For me estrogen was exactly what my brain needed to function properly.  It was like I had PMS my whole life.

Isn't it almost validating once we get on the right hormones and we get that wonderful calm effect?

Obviously, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum (ftm) but before I could start hormones I had to have a hysto due to a androgen producing tumor. I had naturally high estrogen and add to that a natural testosterone level in the low 300's. I was a unstable person. I was never mean to people but I couldn't deal with others for long.

Now that my E level is non existent for the most part and my T level is around 800 I feel balanced. I would imagine that a cis person who for whatever reason had to experience trans HRT would feel as unbalanced as I did previous to my surgery. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, it's awful.

WOW..... now i have wondered on this my self, and persinaly I believe that the "mith" would be true. looking at the fact that the main reason we feel the way we do is due to the wrong sex hormone coursing through your bodies. if you made a cisgendered person the same way they would feel the same, if not right away, not long after.

Alan did not commit suicide due to any treatment but over his partner,who suffered greatly over alans shaming.aside from that,many different people get treatments for many different reasons.a simple hormone inbalance will get you treatment.you would need to be classified as a transperson in order to receive trans related HRT but not for other forms of HRT.I respectfully feel this was a silly topic head.aka its impossible.