Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Would you go into transition knowing there's 90% chance you wouldn't pass??

I was watching this old documentary on trans women in the prison system. There was this one middle age woman and she was discussing the fact that she'll never pass. She was tall with a bigger build for a woman and she had a VERY deep manly voice. She was homeless and was explaining her situation. She was either a oil rig worker or a truck driver before she decided to transition and made a pretty good living. But the fact that she wasn't passable in the end ended up effecting her entire life. She was in her early 50's, homeless, jobless, with a prison record. That's a pretty bad place to be going into the 50's. And if all that was heartbreaking enough she mutilated herself in prison and cut all her genitals off.

I think that everyone has the right to transition. And we all have to do what's right to make ourselves whole. But when I see stories like this I wonder was it really worth it?? Is it worth giving up all the basics needed to survive just to transition and still end up miserable?? What quality of life can a person seriously have if they don't pass not even a little bit??

I was blessed with minimal male features so when I started going out as a young woman it was pretty easy for me to pass. That was the one thing I knew I could count on that gave me that security inside and the confidence that said "Hey you could really do this". I don't think I'd be able to go outside knowing there was no way I could pass.

I asked some friends if they would've still transitioned knowing beforehand that they'd never pass in the end. All of them said no. And for myself I feel the same way. To me I think it's self defeating to go through losing family, friends, spouses, careers, homes, and possibly your entire future for something that won't work out. It's different when you risk those things going into transition knowing before hand that you've at least got a decent shot. I think it's very important to weigh the pros & cons before making such a life changing choice.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I wouldn't. If my goal is to be seen by others as the gender that I feel that I am inside, there's no point in transitioning if I couldn't accomplish that. ...But that doesn't mean I still wouldn't do stuff like low dose HRT, or making my presentation as androgynous as possible, or getting plastic surgery done to reduce the masculinity of my features, or getting an orchiectomy. There is a lot you can do to improve your dysphoria short of fully transitioning. Thinking of transitioning as an all or nothing 100% thing is the reason why I think some people end up getting overwhelmed by the process and making a hasty decision to detransition. My attitude is, I'm just going to do the things that work in my favor, and avoid the things that don't. If I ever am able to get to the point of passing 100%, that would of course make me incredibly happy. But even if I don't, doing as much as I can to ease the dysphoria, while avoiding things that would draw unwanted attention when I go out in public, would be enough to make my life livable.

To me personally it is soooo worth it. I gave up just about everything I ever had and "Yes" I would do it again. For me the feeling of being on the right hormone is indescribable. My Dysphoria was so bad and out of control I was a bomb waiting to go off. With my training and skill set that would have been really bad, like national media bad. I had a constant ringing in my ears, high blood pressure, tachycardia, etc. I was an emotionless zombie and could not sleep more than 6 or 7 hours every 14 days. I would blow up at the first thing that went bad and was hyper vigilant all the time. NOW, I have emotions, normal vital signs, sleep well and am not ready to explode all the time. I feel right somehow. I am relaxed and actually LIVING life now, not just existing to exist. I am sooo looking forward to SRS to complete myself and be the real me. Maybe I am the exception, but yes it was so worth it. It feels really good to be honest with yourself and accept who you are without guilt. It has been very liberating for me. All the "stuff" I lost can be replaced and hopefully with time family will one day accept me once again. Would I do it if I could not pass, I don't pass real well yet, but YES I would even if I never got close to passing. I don't care about how other people feel, I care about how I feel. It's about you baby, not them.  :)

I get to cheat a little on this question, I did TRY to transition twice in my 20's. Both times stopping the experiment because I had that "some guy in a dress" feeling and also felt that I could never ever pass.  Time for Plan B.

Fast forward 30 years to today, I am still practically 6ft tall, a lot more bald, still big boned, deep voice, etc., and seriously considering how NOT to. Made all the harder since through the part-time living I did, I achieved my life long dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman. Yet there is a very large part of my male life that I am proud of and very much enjoy I also learned that I can do these past few years.

I struggle with the question of "Is the happiness and joy you feel worth the potential price to the other areas of your life?". Just another way of looking at "is it worth it"; in terms other than passing.

To me the answer is it was worth it in my case.I'm generally accepted even though you can tell I used to be male

If aesthetics is all it's about then I don't think you should transition at all. If it's a combination of the inside and the outside, so to speak, then passing is something you have to 'deal' with in my opinion. Before anything, consider if what you have to lose is far greater than what you have to gain.

I think we live in an age where we have been seeing a greater blend between the gender aesthetic thru all age groups. For example, I went to a supermarket today, and I saw tall, fat, skinny, short, manly handed, large headed, masculine, feminine, androgynous, almost x-rated, clearly shouln't be showing that much flesh for their age/weight/both, wide shouldered, toothless, tatooed, short haired, long haired, badly made up, no makeup,....... type women everywhere. What gave them away as women was everything else that wasn't their appearance, like voice and manerisms etc which has been discussed ad nausea. In fact, one of my partners friends is very masculine looking and sounding (due to cigarettes) for a woman yet she's been married twice and has 2 kids. Her mannerisms and dress sense is very feminine yet she'd make a good looking guy.

Maybe our 'standards' are different in the UK than elsewhere which is why I'm not emmigrating just yet  ;D

Also, if transitioning makes you a happier and better person regardless of whether you think you pass, then do it. Especially if it stops you going nuts and ending it all.

I always said I'd go full time when people started gendering me as female when I was showing the world that I was male. Thank God that happened, because IDK if I would've continued living if it didn't.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about people treating you as something other than a man, or a freak, or as some honorary girl that everybody uses the right pronouns on because they consider your feelings, but in their minds they're like "OK I know that's really a guy so expect *her* to be a man most of the time". It's about being treated as what YOU see fit as respectful towards YOU. At least that's what it's about for me.

No for me either.

Transitioning for me means to be perceived from others as female. Otherwise I would remain male, maybe
a bit more effeminate, but male. I would accept also not "passing" answers, but I would not call them
"transitions", but maybe "alleviation" from GD (which is still good)

Quote from: Janae on December 03, 2013, 03:52:51 AM
Would you go into transition knowing there's 90% chance you wouldn't pass??

I know many women who don't pass who are very happy with their transitions.

I DID transition assuming I would never pass.

I was wrong. I pass nearly everywhere. But I might have been happier if I didn't. Now I never know if someone is reading me as trans and I worry about every little detail of my presentation.

This is a question I myself have been wrestling with due to my age, body shape, family, and my vocations. I am not sure how much I want to become externally into the woman I am. Maybe if I had started earlier in life things would be different, but alas I did not. So I will keep talking to my therapist and try to come to a solution as to let Kelli live with minimal destruction to myself and those around me.

I think what I'm seeing in these responses is that being transgender differs from person to person. Early on, after having revealed my desire to my now-ex-wife, I had to deal with her questions of why I couldn't just identify as female and remain male. For me, the experience of living fully as a woman was part of what I had been wanting since I was a child. Passing was paramount for the experience, and had I not passed, I would have gone to whatever lengths I could afford to have done so. I would have even taken on those I can't afford, as much as possible. There is an aesthetic component to my identity as a woman, but aesthetics are not superficial (many cis-women would agree).

Neither are aesthetics everything. I would feel awful if another transwoman thought that my deep-seated emotional need to pass means her experience is somehow less valid or legitimate. Not to trivialize, but my being a professor does not mean that people who are not are worth less. Identity doesn't work that way.

All I can say is YES!!! I started this never expecting to pass ,at all, and still don't all the time. But I deal with it.  To me I have to be my self . I'm still not full time do to the fact that I am not out at work but me & my therapist are working on my plan for that now. All other aspects of my life are as myself. I can say for the first time in my life I am truly happy even though I have lost friends and family members who refuse to accept me for me. Hey, that's their problem. You have to be you...period.

I think I would either try or end it. If I was sure I would suffer greatly, probably the latter, if I saw a chance, I would at least try it. That is actually how I felt. I was lying there on my bed thinking that I have now two choices - to be under the soil within months or try one last thing and transition - if anything, getting my body to be right and the name I needed to have on my stone would be a better thing. Sorry if that sounds negative but it was what I felt then. I think I would not have let it come to a point where there would have been a 90% chance to never pass. The amount of dysphoria would have reached a limit way before such a point. I considered what it would be like to have SRS and HT and maybe BA if needed and still live androgynous or even in a male role. I think even that would have been thinkable but I doubt it would have gotten me far. But my focus was mostly on my body, less on the social role, but if I changed my body as much as I could and not manage to also be perceived in society appropriately but ridiculed or hated or hurt a lot, I might have eventually died before I could finish transition from the hurt this causes. This is a pretty sad topic, sorry to sound so negative.

This is a great topic!

I'm 36 now and the reason why I waited this long is because I had very male features, and I never thought I'd even come close to passing.  Thus I just sucked it up as a guy for all these years, thinking that I could never be a girl, until one day I decided to see a gender therapist.  I wanted to at least vent and understand my issues better. I went to timidly at first dressing as a guy, then gradually feminizing my look in little bits and pieces.  First heels and the rest of the outfit being men's clothes.  It looked really stupid, so I added women's slacks.  Then one day, tops, earrings, and then I tried makeup, all while growing out my hair.  Along the way my therapist gave me unwavering support and over time I felt that maybe I had a chance to pass after all.  So now I'm taking a shot at it because I have more confidence that I might be able to pass as female.

But if I didn't think I had a chance to pass, I would probably never go through with it because of all the cruelty and discrimination in the world.

That is why, in the sticky "Do I pass?" threads, I am usually extremely supportive and optimistic.  Based on my own experience, I believe that so many people have a chance to pass if they have people who believe in them, and can help them to find the confidence to believe in themselves. 

I don't  know ,It depends how bad your dysphoria is. If you had the flesh eating bacteria in all your limbs, would you have them all cut off to save your life.

Hm. If I knew I wouldn't pass, but still looked "okay", yes. My family is very accepting and I live in New England, so even if things didn't work out in passing, I wouldn't lose everything.

But it begs the question, if I don't transition, is a life where I'm suicidal every week worth living? Where I have to force escapism just to continue living? I don't think it is. The biggest thing about transitioning for me is how I feel. Waking up and feeling that I am in at least some semblance of the body I want is the most important aspect to me.

Quote from: Mogu on December 03, 2013, 10:15:01 AM
Hm. If I knew I wouldn't pass, but still looked "okay", yes.

This brings up the point that "passing" and "beauty" don't always go hand and hand. I know some trans women who that I consider very beautiful.

No, my main goal is to look like female on the outside otherwise no point. I would not accept to be ugly female either.

It's totally YMMV.  You trade one set of problems for another.  Which set of problems is less burdensome?

I had to go full time to better know how doable a full transition was going to go for me.   HRT and laser definitely made me feel less like the "shaven ape in a dress" that I was a year ago and boosted my confidence, without which I was sure to fail.

My dysphoria is all about the body I live in.  I need to be physically female to the extent possible.

I can continue to play the role of a male, but I desperately need to have a female body.   I don't mind being a bald, plain looking woman.  When I get out of the bath and look in the mirror, I need to see a woman.

I feel like I'm cross-dressing when I wear men's clothes, but I don't mind that.

Randi

This is something I considered before coming out (I'm FTM, so it's a bit different, but I didn't know all that T is likely to do). I used to say, if I can't pass, no way. Because I'd always feel like I transitioned to be a woman with no boobs and a butch appearance instead of a man. But since starting T, I've kind of began thinking differently. I can't say for sure if I'd still socially transition, since being "out" while looking female was often embarrassing and stressful. But I imagine I could still wear men's clothes, be on T, and have my surgeries...I dunno. I'd look like a strange woman, for sure, but if it made me more comfortable in my body to have my hormones and surgeries, why shouldn't I go forward? I'd be unhappy knowing I looked female physically, but it would be better than being how I was before.

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 03, 2013, 11:00:59 AM
This is just a guess but I'm thinking that passing may be important to you now but eventually I think being true to yourself will become more important as you get older and you may end up regretting not transitioning just because you might not pass.  Just ask some of the 50+ year old members here.

I also think this is true. I notice that in older people (not just trans people). You reach a certain point where you've earned your money, had your career, got the house, etc...basically all the things that as a younger person you consumed yourself with worry over...and then you think "there's got to be more than this." We actually discussed this in class several times.

as the face ages the lines blur a little more. when your really young or really old the distinction between m and f tends blur some what or so it seems to me. I'm one of the older ones.

A great (and complicated) topic!

I didn't commit to transitioning (or even admit to myself I was trans) until I realized that it was worth it to me to transition even if I couldn't pass, even if it meant losing my family and friends, even if it meant dying alone someday.  More than a little dramatic, I know, but I set the bar very, very high for myself to be *sure*.

Now that I'm in transition, I find that I do worry about being accepted as the woman within.  It's become a bigger and bigger deal as I do get validation and acceptance from the outside world, because it *feels so good.*  Suddenly, social elements entered into the dysphoria arena.  Where before I thought I would be fine working and presenting as male for a couple of years, now the thought of doing so for more than a few more months is depressing.

I would still transition if I couldn't be accepted as a bio female.  I've learned a lot about acceptance from a lot of wonderful friends both here and in my daily life.  I guess it helps that I've always been a gentle, loving person... my friends are my friends not because of fear, intimidation, or status seeking, but because they appreciate me.  I've lost a number, but I've gained a (smaller) number already... and the ones I have kept and gained care about me for *me*, not for some shell.  That, to me, is worth it.  Add to that the fact that I get to be the person I am inside, and it's just no contest.  I am a woman, and I will live as a woman.  And I will have friends and loves even if no one outside of that circle accepts me as a woman.  I may lose my job; I may lose my house and my career... but I am gaining *me*.

*hug*

I am with Alainaluvsu, at least with respect to why passing is important to me and why I am not sure I could have dealt with not passing.   Waiting till I was taken for being female before transitioning wasn't an option for me because of my height.  Not that it never happened, but it was never going to be the norm.   I hope I would have still transitioned if I didn't pass, because the alternative was NOT to just continue living as a guy, but I honestly don't know.

if the chance was 90% i wouldn't pass? heck no. i like nice things and if i couldn't pass i couldn't work meaning no nice things.... so wouldn't be worth it. i would have just joined the navy and went the officer route and had fun

KIa Ora,

Re: Is transitioning always worth it?

How would one know "for sure" if one does not try ? It's all about 'experience'...

The past is gone-The present is continually unfolding into a  future 'unknown' ! (Plus there's still the 10% chance)

Metta Zenda :)

A large portion of my dysphoria was social. And a long time ago I did grapple with this question... At the time, there weren't many options left. It was either try to fix my life ( and my body ), or take an early exit. For all I knew at the time, I had a 90% chance of not passing... but even with a tiny sliver of a chance of a normal life, I had to try!.

So were I not passing now, or had no real chance of passing in the future, plan B would be looking pretty good. Sorry, that's just how it is. Transition was, and is, a matter of life and not life.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 03, 2013, 07:08:45 AM

It's not about aesthetics, it's about people treating you as something other than a man, or a freak, or as some honorary girl that everybody uses the right pronouns on because they consider your feelings, but in their minds they're like "OK I know that's really a guy so expect *her* to be a man most of the time". It's about being treated as what YOU see fit as respectful towards YOU. At least that's what it's about for me.

Mind if i borrow that for my next facebook status?  My exact feelings when dealing with people socially, especially men.  I got a fairly large dose of this at a christmas/friendsgiving get together.  A good friend of mine(and quite the ladies man) caught me off guard with his ladies man ways.(he wasnt trying to attract me, hes just one of those guys who attract everyone haha).  Anyways he noticed pretty quickly that i noticed him and when i dropped him off, he was quite visibly freaked out i found him attractive(dont think i had any tells but idk, people say i make eyes haha).  He didnt say anything, and really he'd lay his life on the line for me anytime, so i know he didnt mean to upset me.  But, oh man, it was jarriing as hell.  I was pretty sad when i got home.

As far as dealing with myself goes.  The person that i want to pass for is myself.  When i look in the mirror i want to see a girl.  Sometimes i do now when i go all out.  But i still want to feel that way when i take a shower and get changed.  And i wanna pass to myself when im undressed with a significant other(if i ever meet one).  Right now, my clothes and makeup only serve to fool my brain for a limited duration and in a limited way.

If i couldnt transition, i would end it. Period.  I'd rather risk dangerous HRT than not do it.(im talking about with a doctor).   What gives me hope is transitioning and the hopes of improving myself along the way.   Without that hope, there would be a return to the 24 hour pure misery and loneliness.  I'll never go back to hiding in my house, because people didnt treat me the way i prefer, and i couldnt behave like the girl i am. 

I think I'm very lucky in my looks - (which isn't to say they're much, but I think I'll look quite passable).

The major reasons I didn't come OOTC at any earlier point were given to me by my parents when I did come out to them as a teen: you'll never look like a woman, you'll never find love. At any point I might question my gender... those thoughts came back to me.

I finally decided it was necessary in order to extend my life, get rid of the dysphoria I had and didn't acknowledge, and actually be myself for once. A big part of that involved not caring what anybody thought of how I'd look.

Quote from: kabit on December 03, 2013, 01:56:28 PM

I finally decided it was necessary in order to extend my life, get rid of the dysphoria I had and didn't acknowledge, and actually be myself for once. A big part of that involved not caring what anybody thought of how I'd look.

This is what im doing right now.  I still try to be passable, even though really, when everyone around me has known me as a man for so many years its hard.  Doing it for myself though, and not caring, is what saved me from a long nap.  If you can't live with yourself, you'll never be able to live with others, no matter how you look.

I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.  ;) 

 

I think this was just very well said, by heather

Yep, I agree with Heather. I reached that point where it was literally do or die and so I am doing.

And the funny thing is that as I become less and less concerned with "passing" I am "passing" more and more. I'm eager to see the reactions to me when I'm past the 4th or 5th facial hair removal session at E3000. I start there in a couple weeks and am very hopeful that this beard shadow is going to be mostly gone by the end. I've been told by friends honestly that the beard shadow is what tips perception male for me and that getting rid of it will likely tip the scales the other way in almost all cases.

But as for transitioning? I had to so I did.

What I tell other people is, because of the losses, because of the risks, because of sheer difficulty it can (not will, but can) represent, that I do not recommend transitioning unless you feel you must. And if you do feel that way? Then do it.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
...
I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.  ;) 

Hear hear... what I said, only more succinctly.  Sure, what woman doesn't want to be beautiful?  And how many really *are*?

It reminds me of an interview with Dustin Hoffman before he played "Tootsie".  He wanted to try the concept out, so he had makeup artists make him into a believable woman.  Once finished, he agreed that he looked like a woman, and he said, "Now make me beautiful."  The makeup artists said they could make him look like a convincing woman or they could make him up like a drag queen, but they couldn't make him beautiful.  At that point in the interview, he broke into tears.  He said he went home to his beautiful wife and told her he wanted to go back and talk to so many wonderful, vibrant women he had brushed aside previously because they weren't beautiful.

The point is, for at least some of us, beauty isn't worth dying over.  Never being called "sir" or otherwise being mis-gendered isn't worth dying over, as long as we have transitioned.  Transitioning is a matter of life or death, but being seen as pretty afterward?  Not so much. 

To others, though, it seems quite visible from this forum that the way society accepts them or fails to is a further, and potentially deadly, extension of the dysphoria that so many of us face. 

It's not about being more trans than others, to me it is about confidence in oneself and the ability to tell the world to go hang if it can't deal.  I didn't have that confidence.  That was part of why I stayed in denial until I finally *did*.  I missed out on the chance to halt T before it ravaged my voice so badly or strengthened my bones and muscles.  I wish that hadn't happened... but I fear that if I didn't have the self confidence age, therapy, and hard knocks had bestowed on me I would never have begun to transition.

We each walk a different path, but we share the burden.

*hug*

Quote from: Randi on December 03, 2013, 10:44:53 AM
My dysphoria is all about the body I live in.  I need to be physically female to the extent possible.

I can continue to play the role of a male, but I desperately need to have a female body.   I don't mind being a bald, plain looking woman.  When I get out of the bath and look in the mirror, I need to see a woman.

I totally agree to this. This is what the doctors originally described as being born in the wrong body - it sounds so clichee, but here it is - I know many people are different and for maybe even the majority of transwomen now it is not so much about the body but about the social role and "passing as woman" - I like those things - I want to also be socially accepted as the woman I am - but really, being a woman in body as much as this is possible, this is what I really need...
The reason "passing" is important are two - one is that I dont want to be hurt by others because I am seen as a TS and the other is that I need to "pass" somewhat to myself - my body has to change enough for me to look at myself and see a woman and nothing else - I think thats harder than to have most other people see that.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.  ;) 

I really didnt get the sentiment that people were choosy on transitioning in this thread.  I got the sentiment that, not passing, was not an option, and not transitioning was not an option. For some of us, not passing in public, brings on some ->-bleeped-<-ty feelings, esp when people arent treating you in your desired gender role.  If you are female, than you expect to be treated as such.  I'm less worried about not passing simply because i know i can.  And passing to yourself, when you see your own body is just as important.  Once you pass, i assume, it not a thing you think about as much innately accept when you see yourself. Right now, when i see myself, i know its not right and not how it should look.

Quote from: Robin Mack on December 03, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
[...]

It's not about being more trans than others, to me it is about confidence in oneself and the ability to tell the world to go hang if it can't deal.  I didn't have that confidence.  That was part of why I stayed in denial until I finally *did*.  I missed out on the chance to halt T before it ravaged my voice so badly or strengthened my bones and muscles.  I wish that hadn't happened... but I fear that if I didn't have the self confidence age, therapy, and hard knocks had bestowed on me I would never have begun to transition.

We each walk a different path, but we share the burden.

*hug*

It is easy to lament the chances we did not have in life. I couldn't believe any of us (especially us "late bloomers") didn't have those thoughts at some point or another. (I know I still have them).

What always makes me feel better is realizing that, if I had transitioned when I came out as a teen, I wouldn't have the family I have now (despite how much I'm hurting them); I wouldn't have the college degree and work experience I have now (I mean... it was pretty unlikely if I did transition)... I'd be a wholly different person and I can't see how I'd be a better one (though anything's possible).

I even might not be alive now. 20 years ago was a very different time.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on December 03, 2013, 04:36:43 PM
I really didnt get the sentiment that people were choosy on transitioning in this thread.  I got the sentiment that, not passing, was not an option, and not transitioning was not an option. For some of us, not passing in public, brings on some ->-bleeped-<-ty feelings, esp when people arent treating you in your desired gender role.  If you are female, than you expect to be treated as such.  I'm less worried about not passing simply because i know i can.  And passing to yourself, when you see your own body is just as important.  Once you pass, i assume, it not a thing you think about as much innately accept when you see yourself. Right now, when i see myself, i know its not right and not how it should look.

And I agree with this. It is difficult to be oneself, sometimes. Sometimes terribly so... that is the world we live in, unfortunately. If that is your problem... and you have the will to... change that world.

Hmm, I don't know.  On the one hand, I would hate to not pass and it would be terrible fate for me to live if that was to happen.  I don't think I will have this issue in the future, but it is something that bothers me.  On the other hand, I can't pretend to be something I'm not.  Everyday that I keep faking and putting on the "male" charade, is another day that I struggle.  Passing or not, I don't think I could keep that up.  I think those of us with youth on our side take for granted the luxery that we will or can one day pass that it becomes the main goal of our transition.  Nothing wrong with that, as we all do hope to pass and be accepted for who we are.  However, it's important to remember that the purpose of our transition is to be true to who we are.  Those who can do so without worrying about anything else have my total respect.  To be honest, I don't know if I could ever have that courage and cannot really answer this question.  Passing is very important to me, but I don't think my desire to pass can trump my desire to be me. I don't know. All, I can say is that I count my blessings when I consider the things that are in my favor. 

Biggest question of my life.

In my 20's I was very passable & comfortable. I was a very good looking woman with a nice voice, etc.... However with lots of family that always knew me as a male & no real income there seemed no way to actually live full time normal as a woman & finance the SRS, etc.... I tried several times however there were always big roadblocks it seemed.

Now older, mid 50's & hopefully sufficient funds to live any way I want & to handle the SRS expense however I'm sure not the pretty girl I was in my youth. 1/5 way complete with facial electrolysis then I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman. It seems my time has passed however I still have the desire to be one normal person.

So I'm just unsure if it "worth it" however moving forward each day, HRT, electro, etc...... 

Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 03, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman.

All women are beautiful.

Though I agree that there are some whose looks are so striking that they command attention. Most of those women are young.

However, I've known quite a few through the years. Their looks don't bring them happiness. Not in any way. Some seem to feel pressure to conform to an ideal. Others sense that the people around them are jealous, or they become unapproachable. Still others find the attention frustrating because no one sees them as they really are.

If someone gave me a choice to be very beautiful or a little bit comfortable with myself, I'd choose the comfort with myself every time.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 03, 2013, 08:05:37 PM
All women are beautiful.

I love your entire sentiment!!

But this quote is not true. All women can be beautiful. It is entirely about who you are inside and being true to your self. All women should strive for that beauty and many could reach it. All that really stands in their way is society and the "feminine ideal" that nobody real can truly reach.

Men have the same problem... only worse. They have more freedoms, but they also have less insight into how they can be wonderful people. Being a strong man has nothing to do with looks or physical strength... but for standing up for oneself and others when those people are maligned.

All women and all men can be both beautiful and strong. Society actively prevents us from finding those qualities.

I'm just trying my best. :D

Honestly, I can't answer this. I knew that I'd pass before I ever thought about it. That privilege is impossible to filter out of my thought process.

Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 03, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
Now older, mid 50's & hopefully sufficient funds to live any way I want & to handle the SRS expense however I'm sure not the pretty girl I was in my youth. 1/5 way complete with facial electrolysis then I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman. It seems my time has passed however I still have the desire to be one normal person.
So I'm just unsure if it "worth it" however moving forward each day, HRT, electro, etc......

I'm 59 and can relate to what you're saying.  I'm pre-everything. Just started with a GT but it appears that I could end up on HRT fairly soon if I choose transition. My dysphoria is pretty severe at this point. I've seen mind blowing changes with a lot of girls after 1 year on HRT.  I think I might be passable after awhile.  That would work for me.  There are a LOT of things to consider, being pretty is not one of them for me, I can accept that I'm beyond that stage.  All I want is to be happy. 

Such a difficult thing to answer. What I will say is of the minority of the people that I have met that went through transition and regretted it they almost always were the people that never gave a 100% effort to transition. A glaring example would be the sort of person that felt that boobs and a vagina was all it took to be a woman.......

I was always a woman trying to be a man, I went to the extent of cross dressing every day to look like one. I was quite passable as a guy and fooled many people who thought I was one. But I couldn't fool myself.

So I gave up and began being me. I stopped cross dressing and dressed as a normal female of my age.

It didn't matter if I passed or not. I was being me and no longer pretending to be someone else.

Funnily the people who thought I was a man have had no difficulty in realising I'm a woman.

Sorry heather. I know i didn't mean to come off as if you should not transition if you don't pass. i mean for me if i didn't pass i wouldn't because i admit im shallow and like expensive things like cars but thats not for everyone.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.  ;) 

Passing to "Me" is essential in that we need to not only be able to be comfortable with ourselves, but we also need to be able to go out into the world and function in society. We can say were women all day long, but unless others are able to "See" what we "Feel" the end result won't matter as much. We still have to go out into the world and do the basics just to survive. So it's not so much about pleasing others, but being able to be ourselves while still having a decent quality of life. And to a large degree passing is a major part of having that quality of life. It is what it is. In a perfect world looks wouldn't matter but unfortunately they do to some degree. What's the point of transitioning and being miserable in the end just so we can wear a dress and call ourselves a woman? If passing didn't matter then there would be no need to be on HRT, electrolysis or get any surgeries. One could simply put on women's attire and go about our lives. But because it does matter we do what it takes so that not only are we comfortable with ourselves but so are others.

To me, certainly at this early stage, it has to be my goal to pass in the future. I can't at the moment, but I think with effort and chemicals I can do enough in the end to get there. I will always be large, but there are women who are large.

I just want to get on with my life being who I am. I don't want to be constantly reminded by others of what I was unfortunate to be born as. For that I need to blend in, and for that I need to pass.

It seems pretty ironic to me actually that I've spent a good part of half a century scared to death that people would clock me as a woman from my mannerisms and attitudes, and now here I am worried that people will only ever see me as a 'man in a dress'. What is this all about??

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 01:24:06 AM
Passing to "Me" is essential in that we need to not only be able to be comfortable with ourselves, but we also need to be able to go out into the world and function in society. We can say were women all day long, but unless others are able to "See" what we "Feel" the end result won't matter as much. We still have to go out into the world and do the basics just to survive. So it's not so much about pleasing others, but being able to be ourselves while still having a decent quality of life. And to a large degree passing is a major part of having that quality of life. It is what it is. In a perfect world looks wouldn't matter but unfortunately they do to some degree. What's the point of transitioning and being miserable in the end just so we can wear a dress and call ourselves a woman? If passing didn't matter then there would be no need to be on HRT, electrolysis or get any surgeries. One could simply put on women's attire and go about our lives. But because it does matter we do what it takes so that not only are we comfortable with ourselves but so are others.

Well if your having trouble passing a dress is the last thing you should be wearing. ;) The whole point of my post was basically to call out the ridiculous belief that passing and beauty is everything I may pass but I know plenty of women who don't or will never pass yet they still go out there and live their lives as themselves instead of running back to the safety of their former male lives and they have all my respect. Transitioning is not the easy path in life and if your not willing to accept the risk you may not pass your going to end up ruining your life because that's always a risk. But it wasn't your post that ruffled my feathers up it was the one about not wanting to be an ugly woman that got me fired up and about had me go on a feminist rant.  :icon_anger:

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 02:16:55 AM
Well if your having trouble passing a dress is the last thing you should be wearing. ;) The whole point of my post was basically to call out the ridiculous belief that passing and beauty is everything I may pass but I know plenty of women who don't or will never pass yet they still go out there and live their lives as themselves instead of running back to the safety of their former male lives and they have all my respect. Transitioning is not the easy path in life and if your not willing to accept the risk you may not pass your going to end up ruining your life because that's always a risk. But it wasn't your post that ruffled my feathers up it was the one about not wanting to be an ugly woman that got me fired up and about had me go on a feminist rant.  :icon_anger:

I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation too. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. It's true that there are many unattractive females, but when it comes to us we can't always get away with the same things a female can. A ugly female will still read as a female, for us the results can read as a ugly man trying to be a woman. That's just reality. Not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 02:35:06 AM
I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. But not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Your right beauty has nothing to do with passing. But the part I don't like about the ugly comment is it's very misogynistic and the thing that really concerns me is if you do say transition just to be a beautiful woman what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

Quote from: Joules on December 04, 2013, 03:04:09 AM
Heather, I'm founding out that I AM an older woman.   ;)

While that isn't as appealing as being a young woman, it's still better than being an old man for me.

I plan on being an older woman too someday it's funny I used to be scared of growing older now that I'm me aging doesn't seem so scary and I look forward to aging as myself. :)

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 03:21:48 AM
I plan on being an older woman too someday it's funny I used to be scared of growing older now that I'm me aging doesn't seem so scary and I look forward to aging as myself. :)

This was one of the things my mother tried to use to scare me off (this time around). "You'll age as a woman..." She's obviously not thinking straight. Women age more gracefully than men (and look younger longer). (And yeah... I get what she's doing - projecting).

Thanks for this question. It has helped me decide.

I'll continure HRT & Fin. for life I guess. 3-4 months so far I feel so much better, my body is changing some.

I'm lucky I guess because my electrolysis woman really likes me & sees a nice face & nice woman underneath all my facial hair. She has taken me under her wing to help me become a nice woman. She is my age & size & we have become good friends. I know it will take 2-3 months with weekly visits for electrolysis however I'm in no hurry.

Lucky in a lot of ways I guess: 5'9", small feet, small hands, nice voice, nice nails, little fat for now, 190 pounds, my breasts should grow nicely I hope, all women in my family had large breasts, decent face I guess for a male, nice teeth & smile, hair is thin on top so maybe fin will help over time however I'm told lots of women have to wear wigs.

So life goes on for the better, no doubt.

Good luck other girl friends.   

Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 04, 2013, 06:19:40 AM
Thanks for this question. It has helped me decide.

I'll continure HRT & Fin. for life I guess. 3-4 months so far I feel so much better, my body is changing some.

I'm lucky I guess because my electrolysis woman really likes me & sees a nice face & nice woman underneath all my facial hair. She has taken me under her wing to help me become a nice woman. She is my age & size & we have become good friends. I know it will take 2-3 months with weekly visits for electrolysis however I'm in no hurry.

Lucky in a lot of ways I guess: 5'9", small feet, small hands, nice voice, nice nails, little fat for now, 190 pounds, my breasts should grow nicely I hope, all women in my family had large breasts, decent face I guess for a male, nice teeth & smile, hair is thin on top so maybe fin will help over time however I'm told lots of women have to wear wigs.

So life goes on for the better, no doubt.

Good luck other girl friends.

Knowing you have some luck definitely makes it easier... not to decide, but just to live as who you are inside. We'll see how I feel later, but I do feel lucky in some ways... there's a long way to go yet for me! :D (just about 3 weeks 'til my endo)

Quote from: kabit on December 04, 2013, 03:24:21 AM
This was one of the things my mother tried to use to scare me off (this time around). "You'll age as a woman..." She's obviously not thinking straight. Women age more gracefully than men

If only so... for me that turned out to be only a half truth, possibly because of bad HT, possibly because this is just as it is because I heard it from others as well. At least between age 20-something and 50-something it seems that transwomen actually do age differently than men or women. Looking younger longer, thats true, but also having some "male aging" elements in the process. So be careful with that thought, I had that too and was dissapointed. (Thought when I transitioned at 23 that I will age like a woman from that day on - now I am finding that my face looks a bit more male-ish than it was with that age in some aspects)

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 12:18:24 AM
For me, this has always been about my body. About how I inhabit it and how I perceive it. Passing was never really the issue to me. I needed a body I'd feel comfortable in, one that I could survive in, one that looked female to my eyes.

Living as a woman was never particularly interesting to me. I do it, because it comes with the body that I have now. But that's just a side effect. Fixing my form was the important part. And if I wasn't able to do that? I don't know how much longer I'd have survived.

I mean that's what most of us transition for, right? Whether it's how you want to be seen by others, or how you want to see yourself, whether it's about the way your skin fits, or the way your life fits... We are searching for a comfortable place to be. A place where it doesn't hurt, a place that feels good, that feels right, or the closest we can manage. Whether transitioning is worth it... it's going to depend on where that place is for you, and how much it's hurting right now.

You are speaking from my soul, there, Sarah! This is putting it down as it was for me as well. It is in my personal view what it meant for me to be that clichee "woman living in a mans body". It is wha tI felt and what I wanted to change, the whole social rest of it was nice and exciting - but it was the second thought. I started transitioning in two ways - I dropped pretending to be a male, which liberated my brain and I started HRT which began liberating my body. People seeing me as female became important only after a while but to be honest that was important then for me as I needed it to affirm myself that my body changes actually exist, that my expression of my personality was beautiful and that I was not crazy in thinking that being just me and getting the body I needed also meant to be a woman in this society ...

Quote
what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

Good question.
As of right now I am not exactly sure how would I feel if I become old and ugly. I hope I will be as happy but in any point in my life I'm not afraid to detransition if somehow I decided it is better and worth it to do that.  :)

Someone asked me a similar question one time during early transition. "If you would magically transition now but you would be a pretty ugly woman, but a woman with all that makes a woman - would you do it" - the background was indeed that as a transwoman it may be that one comes out not pretty but a bit ugly by social standards - but does that matter - does that change a heartfelt need to have a womans body and just be a woman in every way?  For me it did not, for some it does...

I fear aging, but that has nothing to do with my gender.  Male or female, no one looks forward to getting old.  Well, thats not fully true.  I am looking forward to my 25th birthday, so car insurance premium will go down.  I just don't want to age more than that, lol. We are all going to get older and it's not easy to deal with.  It's part of life.

The addiitive feedback from without and within which tells you that in this world your station is being a man, that was what devastated me.   Passing (do not love the term but whatevs) and all that comes with it, drastically reduced the volume of that feedback for me.  It isn't the only thing by any means (body issues still exist) but yeah it is a biggie for me.

Whether being attractive matters, I mean who doesn't want to look good, but if i didn't that in itself wouldn't actually cause dysphoria for me.

I personally think this worrying about age is pretty dumb. I'm a lot older. The older you get you realize the incredibly short time we have to spend on this planet. Time truly goes by incredibly fast. You just have to make each day count, Plus I never considered Betty White particularly ugly.

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 03, 2013, 09:07:08 PM
I'm 59 and can relate to what you're saying.  I'm pre-everything. Just started with a GT but it appears that I could end up on HRT fairly soon if I choose transition. My dysphoria is pretty severe at this point. I've seen mind blowing changes with a lot of girls after 1 year on HRT.  I think I might be passable after awhile.  That would work for me.  There are a LOT of things to consider, being pretty is not one of them for me, I can accept that I'm beyond that stage.  All I want is to be happy.

Happiness with self is what it is all about.  It is like Sarah7 says here in this topic, being comfortable with yourself.

Like you, FrancisAnn, and some of our other members who are middle-aged, we managed to survive without blowing our brains out along the way.  We found ways to cope.  But coping is not the same as happiness - it is defensive in nature.  For me, it is what's going on inside; less so on the outside.

You want to start living again, as your authentic self.  For the MtF or MtA, one early effect of estrogen therapy that is often seen is euphoria.  It was that way with me.  I hope it is that way with you too.

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 02:50:45 AM

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 02:35:06 AM
I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. But not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Your right beauty has nothing to do with passing. But the part I don't like about the ugly comment is it's very misogynistic and the thing that really concerns me is if you do say transition just to be a beautiful woman what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

I think in a way this separates those who are serious about being a woman from those who just want the perks. Not saying young trans women who go on about beauty are necessarily doing this - it's the norm for young women to obsess about beauty. But women are usually considered 'hot' and celebrated from about 16 to 25 (maybe to 40 if they're really lucky). This is such a short period of a woman's life (which a lot of women not considered conventionally attractive don't get to experience at all, even in that short time).

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 02:25:50 PM

Quote from: FA on December 04, 2013, 01:52:29 PM
I think in a way this separates those who are serious about being a woman from those who just want the perks. Not saying young trans women who go on about beauty are necessarily doing this - it's the norm for young women to obsess about beauty. But women are usually considered 'hot' and celebrated from about 16 to 25 (maybe to 40 if they're really lucky). This is such a short period of a woman's life (which a lot of women not considered conventionally attractive don't get to experience at all, even in that short time).

Dude, did you just say I'm ugly? So sad now. :P

Ha hardly.  :laugh: Just that women are considered most desirable for a very short window in their lives.

I have much less fear of aging post-transition.  The idea of being an old woman is comforting to me.   I'm not in a rush, but if/when I get there.. idk... it won't be such a bad thing I feel :).

Interesting thread both for the poll at the beginning and the comments from different participants. It really is a very personal issue.
For me, as a late transitioner, there were never any dreams about being a pretty or really good looking woman. However I would also  never have transitioned if I could not see the woman myself and if I was not generally perceived as a woman by others. Why? Because for starters I just love feminine physiques, especially faces,  and because for me the social aspect of being a woman is extremely important. I love the way  women interact with each other and just how much more gentle life is when others really perceive you as a woman. I am a very social and sociable person and just couldn't have handled being marginalized.
It was also very much a question of survival. With a reasonably good physical presentation I knew that I could transition without losing everything else that counted in my life from my relationships through to my job. My appearance is good enough today for people to feel no visible discomfort in my presence and, like it or not, in a world where our interactions with others are hugely important, this counts.
Like others, I do fear aging but don't think I fear aging more as a woman than as a man. I guess this is because I'm not trying to seduce anyone and as long as I feel comfortable with myself and can still have a little fun dressing up etc.. I'll survive  :)
My 2C's Worth
Donna

Those who are interested can find my thoughts on what "being a woman" meant to me and how intimately this was linked to my physique in this post that I did quite a while back:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,139296.msg1126367.html#msg1126367 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,139296.msg1126367.html#msg1126367)

BTW, my "life story" that text plus just one 40min appointment were enough to convince a psychiatrist that I was suffering from GID and give me the certificate that opened the door to other things  :)       

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 03:04:35 PM
We are going to be the smexy-est old ladies, Jen.

Naturally <3

I really think people put too much effort into this aging business, Absolutely every thing in this universe ages. You can't stop it  Life is so incredibly short as it is just enjoy the ride.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 03:04:35 PM
We are going to be the smexy-est old ladies, Jen.

Quote from: Jen on December 04, 2013, 03:12:21 PM
Naturally <3

OMG, you two crack me up.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 04, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
I fear aging, but that has nothing to do with my gender.  Male or female, no one looks forward to getting old. 

You're right, aging sucks.  But what's the other option?   Death?   Now which do you fear worse?
For me at age 59, it comes down to transition or death.  Guess which one I picked?

It's my understanding that most people want to look good regardless of age or sex.  This means different things to different people of course, and i personally believe anyone can look good despite their gender/age/disability.  Passing is more individual i think though, and has less to do with how good you look.  Seeing that girl in the mirror is important to me personally, since when i look in a mirror now i see man body and my brain does not like it.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm working on getting younger! :P

LOL... I got a lot younger when I came OOTC... tomorrow is my 4-month birthday.

In the process of currently considering transitioning, the one thing I hadn't thought much about was passing. It never crossed my mind. As it is now as a girl I admittedly look ok. Some would say beautiful, but if I transitioned to male and didn't look good would it still be worth it? Hmm I would say yes. Because even if I have this random image of myself being a body builder or model, I wouldn't have a problem if I were ugly, or even if I'd be accidentally misgendered (this is coming from the fact I haven't transitioned. So it may change) It wouldn't matter. I would transition for myself and only myself because when and if everyone is gone I would still end up dealing with me. I would wake up and look in the mirror and there I'd be. If others couldn't handle that it'd be a shame, and if things fell completely apart I know in time no matter how long it'd take I would be capable of putting the pieces back together and living life. Because nothing's permenant and that gives me a sense of hope.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on December 04, 2013, 03:28:11 PM
It's my understanding that most people want to look good regardless of age or sex.  This means different things to different people of course, and i personally believe anyone can look good despite their gender/age/disability.  Passing is more individual i think though, and has less to do with how good you look.  Seeing that girl in the mirror is important to me personally, since when i look in a mirror now i see man body and my brain does not like it.

i totally agree. we should not feel ashamed for wanting to look fabulous and be cute  :P

For myself I want to be as pretty & nice of a woman as humanly possible. Hopefully after electro is complete then I will have a face lift as any woman my age would have. I like taking care of myself & looking nice & normal.

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 04, 2013, 03:27:57 PM
You're right, aging sucks.  But what's the other option?   Death?   Now which do you fear worse?
For me at age 59, it comes down to transition or death.  Guess which one I picked?

I know there is no way to avoid aging.  That's why I say it's inevitable.  The whole being afraid to be an old woman vs an old man doesn't make sense to me.  Either way, I won't enjoy aging regardless.  Nor does the again process alter how I percieve my gender.  The idea of being old in general frightens me, not simply being an old woman or "man". 

Transitioning really wasn't a choice for me.  It's something I felt I had to do for myself.  And I did make sacrifices and put myself through a lot to get to where I am now.  Yeah, I have a lot further to go, but the fact that I did get this far says something.  If it were simply about appearances, I would have never have taken the step.  As much as I do care about passing and looking pretty, I care more about being me.  It's hard for me to imagine holding off the transition process any further than I did.  I don't know if I would be here either.  I suppose passing is important to me, but it isn't the be all and end all for me.  At the end of the day, I just want to be liberated and live as the real me.  Still, it would be nice to pass and blend.  It's makes things much easier because I have always wanted others to view me as female as well.   I'm not there yet, but I think I will be there in due time.  I suppose the answer is more likely yes that transitioning would be my path regardless.  Still, I can't lie and pretend that passing and being accepted as female isn't important to me either.  It is.  And it's hard for me to place myself in a situation I haven't been in.  I'm younger and believe I have the potential to pass.  My experience may be the same if appeared different, but I can't say with certainty how I'd feel if there was no potential for me to pass.  To say I'd feel one way or the other would be disengenous.  I don't know.   What I do know is that my transition was much more than my appearance, though the appearance aspect was also an important factor for me to go through with this and feel confident about the potential end result. 

I'm not doing a good job answering the question; however, I don't feel a yes or no is sufficient.  I hope I'm explaining it well. 

L2L, the older you get the less you will fear getting old.  Enjoy your youth, then when you finish with it, you'll be ready for the next stage. :)

Quote from: Joules on December 04, 2013, 08:25:29 PM
I can identify a great deal with JordanBlue.  I turned 60 5 months ago, 3 weeks after I started HRT.  I don't think I was suicidal, I didn't feel that my unrequited transgender condition was killing me.  But it did keep me from living.

Before I came to terms with this, I felt like one of The Walking Dead. The dysphoria was literally eating me up inside.   I haven't started HRT yet, but feel that I will in the very near future.  Just knowing the direction I'm headed in is giving me a little peace right now.  Do I know where I'll end up?  No, I sure don't.  I know it could go as far as srs, but nothing is definite for me right now.  I'm done hiding all this in a locked box in a dark corner.  I did that for 50 years.  Enough is Enough.  I'm quite sure a lot of people will think I'm crazy for talking like I am right now.  I don't care anymore.  It's time for me to take care of me.  Yeah, I'm old.  Get over it.  I don't act my age if that's any consolation.  I figure when my time on earth is up - it's up.  At least I'll go happy.   8)

In a heartbeat I would. Heck you could even say that's what I'm doing right now as in my area women over 5'7" who aren't small and petite are NOT the norm and here I am at 5'11" with the frame of a Amazon woman but I'm happy that I know I'm actually myself for once and I feel alive. I couldn't say that about myself just over 2 months ago.

I thought I'd come back and add onto the topic. And for anyone who's had similar thoughts or experiences I'd love to hear them.

As I stated in the thread post I took the fact that I had minimal male features into account. Before I even know what being trans was I got the courage at age 15 to step out of my house as a girl. I didn't go far just for a walk around the corner from my house. I was testing the waters. After things went ok I said let's turn it up. I ended up going to two dates with 2 boys from my school. I told both of them I had a twin sister and set them up on dates with myself. The fact that they liked the idea of being with a girl who looked like me was the first breakthrough that I could have a chance at passing. (These are both funny stories with even funnier details I'd love to share at another time lol)

To me in my young age it never crossed my mind that they'ed think it was me, my plain ole boy self in a wig and girls clothes, I just knew I'd not only pass as my "Twin sister" but also as a girl. Things went great. I was in public at the movies with a boy and no one was the wiser. The joy and confidence I had from passing in public was a feeling I'll never forget. This was a defining moment that always made me feel that one day living as a woman was actually possible. If I thought for a second that I wouldn't pass pre hrt & surgery I most likely wouldn't have started transitioning. When I read heartbreaking stories of girls who have de-transitioned from being unable to pass my heart goes out to them. I think it's easier stepping out on faith when you at least have tried true results that things will work out favorably if you decided to move forward.

I always tell my former supervisor, who's a trans man, it's easier to make something soft hard, than making something hard soft. I told him it was way easier for him. Because when people see him with his beard & hairy forearms it's automatically assumed he's a man and it's never questioned. But for a MTF's it's not that simple.

As I grew older I became aware that there were different degrees of passing. Passing all the time, most of the time, some of the time, and none of the time. I saw how girls were treated who didn't pass and this scared me. I thought how can you live your life happily as a woman when everywhere you go people are staring, making rude comments, laughing, or worse? Which is where the "Is it worth it comes in". I know some successful trans woman who are doctors, nurses, hair stylists, make-up artists, party promoters, etc. All of them have one thing in common, They're all passable. I thought to myself last night after posting this topic. Would these women still be as successful and happy if they weren't passable?? I honestly can't say if they would. I feel that in order to move through life smoothly as a trans woman passing is very important. Not only to yourself but to society as well. Beauty doesn't matter because I've seen happy successful trans woman who aren't typically attractive but they pass very well. Aging doesn't matter either because that's inevitable. I think it's more about growing older gracefully. Being healthy, secure, and content with the decisions you've made with the time you've been given.

Quote from: FA on December 04, 2013, 02:37:18 PM
Dude, did you just say I'm ugly? So sad now. :P


Ha hardly.  :laugh: Just that women are considered most desirable for a very short window in their lives.

My wife came up with a great line a couple of years ago; "Who in their right mind WANTS to be a 56 y/o woman?". This was followed up with all the usual the bloom is off the rose stuff for women plus all the other down sides for women.

It might be easy to respond with something like "Sure, if I had a choice I'd rather be a young 20 something woman" Unfortunately for me I had that choice, tried exercising that option twice in my early 20's and twice opted to try faking normal. Today's response is still I don't want to, perhaps I need to. Mostly I know I find joy in finally being able to feel good about being me.

There is also an element of "Like a fine wine I got better with age" involved. Perhaps it's a new attitude brought about by the self acceptance and self confidence? For I am sure still as ugly in male mode, just older and ugly today.

this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

I don't think that's a gender thing.... it's an age and maturity thing ;)
As we get older we get wiser, without a doubt... some more than others, for sure, but wiser nonetheless.

That isn't different if your trans* - you just might start out with more wisdom...

I think some of what I said was misinterpreted the point I was trying to make was basing your whole transition off looks is not wise. Sure I understand the want or the need to look good but the thing about looks is they are very fleeting and eventually they fade and what your left with is just yourself.
What got me fired up and wanting to post in this thread was the comment about being a ugly woman the reason why is first off I don't believe in ugly the only thing ugly about a person is their attitude towards life and other people but as far as looks go I don't believe in ugly.
The reason why I brought up the question of aging was this glaring example. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,146363.msg1200472.html#msg1200472 I believe if your not willing to accept the downsides of being a woman you shouldn't be transitioning period. A cis woman has no choice and has to accept the good and the bad that comes along with being a woman and has no choice to whether she is considered beautiful or not but still has to go out there and live.
Being a woman is far more than just how she looks on the outside and it degrades women to just judge them by outward appearances. And just because it's acceptable to do it in modern society doesn't make it right.
And while I know it's easy to say all this when I "pass" pretty well But I went through a lot to get to this point in my life and I'm willing to face the rest of my life as a woman the good and the bad just like every woman on this planet has to do. ;)   

Quote from: Heather on December 05, 2013, 10:20:58 AM
I think some of what I said was misinterpreted the point I was trying to make was basing your whole transition off looks is not wise. +

And while I know it's easy to say all this when I "pass" pretty well But I went through a lot to get to this point in my life and I'm willing to face the rest of my life as a woman the good and the bad just like every woman on this planet has to do. ;)   

Heather,
I don't think a single person here said they had based their whole transition on looks, what a lot of people said, including myself, is that they based their transition on their ability to be perceived by themselves and by others as a woman, in simpler terms, on their passability. Of course looks come into that since the first thing most people notice is your physical appearance but that's as far is it goes. If you are pretty, attractive etc..that is of course a bonus just like for any other woman.

While I hate getting into arguments on forums, in this particular case I will argue that trying to transition when you clearly do not pass and/or are not in a very well protected job is probably even less wise, in any case for those who still have to earn a living and survive in the big bad world. You are almost certainly setting yourself up for a huge amount of pain and unless you are just a little masochistic or even suicidal, I really don't see how it can be worth it.

As you had the honesty to say, you are expressing the views of a person who passes "pretty well" but, without a lot of effort, surgery etc.. many of us did not or do not.  It was very much my case and I can see a huge difference in the way I am perceived now that I actually do pass pretty well. From the day people started to spontaneously call me Madame it has been a very self reinforcing processing, each Madame adding to my confidence and belief that I could live succesfully as a woman. Without that passability this process would almost certainly never have started and I would have made life a misery both for myself and for those who share my life: wife, children etc...

If there are people who have no need for others and/or believe that it is up to others to recognize us as women no matter what everything about our appearance and presentation is saying , so be it, I admire their courage. However I sure as hell understand those for whom that is too big a challenge.
Warm regards
Donna

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

I'd like to clarify something.   My unhappiness with aging has little to do with my transition or my identity.  No one likes to age, but that doesn't mean I will revert and become something I'm not when I do.  Nor is transitioning about kinky sex parties for us.  Passing is important to some here. It's not the be all or end all, as I believe I'd go through with this regardless of my appearance,  but it is something important to me and others.  It's about being accepted socially for what you have always seen yourself as.  We will all have different opinions,  but i don't think it's fair to paint those of us who care about passing as purely vain.  There is a lot more to it than that

believe me  I'm so truly sorry. Its my fault. I've struggled with this since I was 4 , I still don't know if I would of transition earlier If I could of seen more clearly. I did do a lot of things when I was in my twenties and 30's . The sex  and the drugs and prostitution.    I am truly sorry if I hurt any one by those things  I said. I guess because I waited so long to realize I am transgender I got upset about all this talk Of the age thing. I'm so very sorry.                               

This thread may have gone a different route hehe.. but in response to the original post;

I often fear that after i start transition that I will look terrible and that I'll never be perceived as female because of it and it could possibly destroy me in the end.. But honestly, with the dysphoria literally tormenting me as it does, what i crave on the same level as looking female, is for my brain to shut up already and to finally feel like its in the right place. After having spoken to people who have been in transition for a 1-10 years, the most appealing result of transition (to me at least) is knowing that the confusion will subside. However, the fear of not appearing female because of my tall or broad figure still haunts me, but I guess it helps to imagine that I'll just be "statuesque", and thats ok too. While I yearn to appear as I feel, the uncertain possibility that these thoughts could very well subside as i continue my transition are definitely worth the risk for me.

if that's your picture you'll be more than all right

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 02:15:13 PM
if that's your picture you'll be more than all right If its not your picture I mean no harm. Not that looks matter when your dealing with dysphria, I hope I'm not putting my self in a bad light again

Quote from: Donna E on December 05, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
Heather,
I don't think a single person here said they had based their whole transition on looks, what a lot of people said, including myself, is that they based their transition on their ability to be perceived by themselves and by others as a woman, in simpler terms, on their passability. Of course looks come into that since the first thing most people notice is your physical appearance but that's as far is it goes. If you are pretty, attractive etc..that is of course a bonus just like for any other woman.

While I hate getting into arguments on forums, in this particular case I will argue that trying to transition when you clearly do not pass and/or are not in a very well protected job is probably even less wise, in any case for those who still have to earn a living and survive in the big bad world. You are almost certainly setting yourself up for a huge amount of pain and unless you are just a little masochistic or even suicidal, I really don't see how it can be worth it.

As you had the honesty to say, you are expressing the views of a person who passes "pretty well" but, without a lot of effort, surgery etc.. many of us did not or do not.  It was very much my case and I can see a huge difference in the way I am perceived now that I actually do pass pretty well. From the day people started to spontaneously call me Madame it has been a very self reinforcing processing, each Madame adding to my confidence and belief that I could live succesfully as a woman. Without that passability this process would almost certainly never have started and I would have made life a misery both for myself and for those who share my life: wife, children etc...

If there are people who have no need for others and/or believe that it is up to others to recognize us as women no matter what everything about our appearance and presentation is saying , so be it, I admire their courage. However I sure as hell understand those for whom that is too big a challenge.
Warm regards
Donna

Donna it's not arguing to have a different opinion than me. You are stating your opinion in a reasonable way which is the opposite of arguing. Btw I do know what it feels like not to pass I was out presenting myself in public long before I started looking the way I do now which isn't exactly attractive but it's a long way from where I started. So I can relate to the feeling of not passing but I can also relate to knowing how it feels to be treated like an unattractive woman which isn't fun either but it beats being treated like a man. ;)

I see the responses are all over the place.
I'm heading down the road and up ahead I see the TRANSITION zone. It's scary. It's also exciting on a good way. There are so many things to think about, like if I don't pass maybe I can make a living in the background. I think it would be difficult to not pass and have to present yourself to the public as a sales person or some highly visible position. The opposite would be a stay at home job working on the computer. So those job conditions can be a big piece of the puzzle. As others have said, there are ways to be feminine without completely transitioning. You can stay in the closet and keep a low profile. CandiFLA recommends taking steps before transitioning. Practice speaking like a woman. I don't sound too convincing yet, but I'm determined to get there. I think you can too. If I can learn all about makeup, fashion, and maybe get breast augmentation, these things might add up to passability. That's a pretty big question, isn't it?

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 04:16:48 PMYou can stay in the closet and keep a low profile. CandiFLA recommends taking steps before transitioning.

Geez - how long can you actually stay living that way? I could not keep that closet up for even half a year after I knew what was going on with me and dropped that male facade becaus eI could not keep it up again, things just wenn all over the place from that on, I could not have somehow squeezed back into a close then... but if you can do that, it totally makes sense to do some of the work before - voice training, electrolysis...

Quote from: anjaq on December 05, 2013, 04:33:42 PM
Geez - how long can you actually stay living that way? I could not keep that closet up for even half a year after I knew what was going on with me and dropped that male facade becaus eI could not keep it up again, things just wenn all over the place from that on, I could not have somehow squeezed back into a close then... but if you can do that, it totally makes sense to do some of the work before - voice training, electrolysis...

I'm with you! I'm doing an absolutely terrible job being in the closet! It's been 4 months... HRT starts soon... and I think people at work are seriously suspecting that something's going on.

How long can I live that way? A long time so far. For me I am not working at having a manly persona. Instead I am just being me. I'm androgynous. It's easy and not a facade. I'm not working at it. Shifting from androgynous to feminine is a much smaller step than going from GI Joe to Barbie. When you say 'living that way' it is not a very uncomfortable place. It's just not as comfy as a warm feminine persona which is more in harmony with my interior.

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 04:48:02 PM
How long can I live that way? A long time so far. For me I am not working at having a manly persona. Instead I am just being me. I'm androgynous. It's easy and not a facade. I'm not working at it. Shifting from androgynous to feminine is a much smaller step than going from GI Joe to Barbie. When you say 'living that way' it is not a very uncomfortable place. It's just not as comfy as a warm feminine persona which is more in harmony with my interior.

It's where I am too... at work and with most friends.
And I still hate it... but I do realize it's necessary. Their perceptions of me are changing and many of them don't like it... but work people are forced to accept it and still respect my work.

But no... I will never like being half way like this. It's better than being not me, but I hate half measures.

"always"??? ???    I seriously doubt any of us are so smart about knowing our futures that we can predict, with confidence, that we will or won't pass at any percentage after or during transition.  Are you sure you pass because someone calls you miss, mister, she or he?  How do you know they do not perceive you as transgender but simply respect how we are presenting?  I know plenty of ciswomen who could not fit our picture book "do I pass?" album.  If we really look at women we will see a wonderfully diverse population with a nearly infinite spectrum of looks and styles.
Some of the most fascinating and attractive women I have ever met carry their beauty within their character.  They do not need a great dress or make up to make a difference, be lovable or create meaningful relationships.  Life based on looks is sexist stereotyping!  There is unlimited potential for us to transition, be ourselves and live a successful life.  No one is born a man or a woman.  As we mature we may become one or the other or, goodness, someone in between.  Transitioning is not an exact science.  Why is not having certain answers threatening to some of us? 

What most troubles me most about this thread are the references to fear based thinking.  Fear of age, ugliness or loss.  Fear and the resultant toxicity of ignorance kept me from transitioning decades ago.  My real identity never went away but shadowed me till affirmed.  I now encourage people who are considering transition to look within their own hearts and minds vs a glamour catalog for the answers.  If our confidence to transition is based on our looks or passability then goodness knows how often a bad hair day or critical look might dump us into despair.  When I feel like a girl or woman I own it and no one can take it a away.  No one, including me, ever made me feel like a man.  It is more than enough to feel love as my most genuine self.  Pure indulgence!

Yes, we might lose a job, a friend or any number of relationships or things.  We might also gain insights, real happiness and more success than we could possibly imagine.  Being true to myself is definitely worth it.  Let the truly clairvoyant opine away about the future they can see so clearly for others.....  ;-)

The future is so bright I have to wear pink shades. Yes, it's an art to stay positive while realizing our future is a little vague and difficult to control. With the right attitude we can move forward and leave our fears behind. It might be best to Let Go and that's not easy. Anything worthwhile is usually a challenge and a lot of work...

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 06:22:00 PM
The future is so bright I have to wear pink shades. Yes, it's an art to stay positive while realizing our future is a little vague and difficult to control. With the right attitude we can move forward and leave our fears behind. It might be best to Let Go and that's not easy. Anything worthwhile is usually a challenge and a lot of work...

LOL thanks Gina!  Art does save lives and I too keep my pink shades on daily--easier than make up :)

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 02:20:08 PM

It is me. Though no worries I understand what you mean haha

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
believe me  I'm so truly sorry. Its my fault. I've struggled with this since I was 4 , I still don't know if I would of transition earlier If I could of seen more clearly. I did do a lot of things when I was in my twenties and 30's . The sex  and the drugs and prostitution.    I am truly sorry if I hurt any one by those things  I said. I guess because I waited so long to realize I am transgender I got upset about all this talk Of the age thing. I'm so very sorry.                             

There is no need to apologize.  I just wanted to better explain what I'm trying to say.  So far, I feel that I've done a poor job trying to convey what I really feel.  And for what's it's worth, there are plenty of beautiful and passable older women.  My fear of ageing is a general feeling that isn't related to my transition.   There is nothing wrong with transitioning at an older age.  Hey, I know people who started much earlier than me.  Passing can be achieved no matter your age or so called level of attractiveness.  For me, it's being recognized as female and our true selves which makes passing important to me.

Quote from: Donna E on December 05, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
Heather,
I don't think a single person here said they had based their whole transition on looks, what a lot of people said, including myself, is that they based their transition on their ability to be perceived by themselves and by others as a woman, in simpler terms, on their passability. Of course looks come into that since the first thing most people notice is your physical appearance but that's as far is it goes. If you are pretty, attractive etc..that is of course a bonus just like for any other woman.

While I hate getting into arguments on forums, in this particular case I will argue that trying to transition when you clearly do not pass and/or are not in a very well protected job is probably even less wise, in any case for those who still have to earn a living and survive in the big bad world. You are almost certainly setting yourself up for a huge amount of pain and unless you are just a little masochistic or even suicidal, I really don't see how it can be worth it.

As you had the honesty to say, you are expressing the views of a person who passes "pretty well" but, without a lot of effort, surgery etc.. many of us did not or do not.  It was very much my case and I can see a huge difference in the way I am perceived now that I actually do pass pretty well. From the day people started to spontaneously call me Madame it has been a very self reinforcing processing, each Madame adding to my confidence and belief that I could live succesfully as a woman. Without that passability this process would almost certainly never have started and I would have made life a misery both for myself and for those who share my life: wife, children etc...

If there are people who have no need for others and/or believe that it is up to others to recognize us as women no matter what everything about our appearance and presentation is saying , so be it, I admire their courage. However I sure as hell understand those for whom that is too big a challenge.
Warm regards
Donna

Very well put Donna.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Quote from: Tessa James on December 05, 2013, 05:01:41 PM
"always"??? ???    I seriously doubt any of us are so smart about knowing our futures that we can predict, with confidence, that we will or won't pass at any percentage after or during transition. [...] No one is born a man or a woman.  [...]
What most troubles me most about this thread are the references to fear based thinking.  Fear of age, ugliness or loss.  Fear and the resultant toxicity of ignorance kept me from transitioning decades ago.

Yes I think the original question was more about that actually - the need to transition regardless of things like "passing" or clothing. I clicked in the vote "Unsure". Why? Because of that fear. When I transitioned it was basically  a choice influenced by fear - it was never a choice to stay living as I did before. The choice was death or transition. I was unsure however because of that fear, if I should do transition or give in to the fear of ridicule and hate and just end it there. I figured that heck, I could at least try it and if it gets as bad as I was feraing, I still would have the other option, but at least by then I would have a body that more resembles what I needed...

And while I think we are not born men or women of course as these terms refer to mature people, I think we are born with girls or boys brains and girls or boys bodies and this is not a social thing. When I transitioned and still to a degree now in this couontry, the concept was that transsexuals have "learned" that they want to be a different gender. I think the theory was that by the age of 3 or so, there is gender identity forming and if something goes wrong there, we get transgender and want to adopt a different social role than our bodies say we should. That is not correct of course - because we are actually BORN this way. I really suffered a bit from that "accusation" that it was a psychological issue rather than a biological one because it always questione dthe validity of my feelings and the solutions I was aiming for.

Quote from: Joules on December 05, 2013, 04:55:57 PM
Not that I'm all that great at GI Joe, but I've tried so hard all my life to head in that direction.  It's a lot more change and adjustment.  I never minded those things that made me look more "manly", e.g., weathered skin, a few small scars, lots of "guy" mannerisms.

You did not mind those things? How did you get that knot into your mind - I can understand enduring it or using it to keep the facade up, but actually not minding them?

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 04:48:02 PM
How long can I live that way? A long time so far. [...] I'm androgynous. It's easy and not a facade. I'm not working at it. Shifting from androgynous to feminine is a much smaller step than going from GI Joe to Barbie. When you say 'living that way' it is not a very uncomfortable place. It's just not as comfy as a warm feminine persona which is more in harmony with my interior.

Well sure - for a time thats right. I did the same. I was presenting androgynous or maybe a very effininate guy for about a year or so, but not much longer - I could not really do that any longer. I liberated my personality from facades by then, but that made it in the long run impossible for me to not take further steps, mainly to change my body and to go by my new name - these were after all the main changes after that point.

Ah yeah - well, I am not bad in english but not perfect ;) - I have some scars that i "do not mind" that much then. They are from a snowboarding accident when I broke my upper leg. they have a story and thats sort of ok as I can tell the story - about going down really sttep hills with the board and about breaking that bone and afterwards still go on field trips with my crutches - its kind of neat, "tough girl stories" - a bit "tank girl" ;) - other scars I am not so open about - all the scars from transitioning - not that nice and not a topic I ever want to talk about with random people.

But really about all the "manly" stuff, manners, skin and physical body properties or mannerisms - I minded them a lot. It almost broke me in bits which is why I could not keep it up at age 22 or so and started to break down - or at least the parts of me broke down that used these things to keep danger away. Its funny in a way - I think I could never have made it in my 30ies or 40ies without transitioning or at least trying it...

Quote from: anjaq on December 06, 2013, 08:33:50 AM
Its funny in a way - I think I could never have made it in my 30ies or 40ies without transitioning or at least trying it...

I guess it depends on each individual's personal level of gender dysphoria.  A human is capable of doing a lot of things that are not so pleasant in their life.  I was able to somehow contain my true self for 50 years.  That's not to say it didn't surface a few times down thru the years, but I was able to smother it, until this last time.  Do I wish the opportunity had come a lot earlier in my life to deal with this?  Heck, yeah I do, but it didn't happen.  I'm 59 now and it's "deal with it or die" time for me.  It's just that simple.

I keep seeing this line of thinking over and over: "Maybe people are just saying you pass/regrading you as a woman or man (if you are FtM) to be nice." I SERIOUSLY doubt that is the case. People can be total pricks most of the time and it has been my experience that if someone hates you for whatever reason, they will say why they hate you. I don't know what kind of fantasy land some people live in where people say that you pass when you don't "just to be nice". If this world actually exits, then there more than likely exists some portal to the animated world of Green Meadow. Please direct me to this portal if you know where it is located.

Good morning Miss Bungle, nice new avatar couple there. 

We can be most sure of our own experience and perceptions are frequently colored by our expectations.  I expect that most people are really very decent or really unconcerned with my looks.  I do not pass most of the time and am transitioning in a a small rural community where plenty of people already knew me for decades as a guy.  I also expect that my character and ability to create relationships and work toward community is the person i want to keep working on.  I love my new clothes too but that is window dressing to me.   I am and have been out full-time for almost a year now and am treated with respect and virtually all of my public experiences have been positive.  I do not doubt that others have had hardships or endure hate but my real world experience is 180 degrees from the fears that once ruled me. 

My fears kept me closeted and reinforced my previous denial and shame.  That is gone for me and and I say good riddance to those tiresome efforts to fit into anyone else's vision.  I am having FUN ;D

I agree. And I disagree with the perception that most people are pricks. I see most people as decent. A dark view of the world won't get you to where you want to be.

I think the way people treat you depends on where you live and the kind of energy you put out.   Probably more on the latter than anything.

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 06, 2013, 12:57:03 PM
I agree. And I disagree with the perception that most people are pricks. I see most people as decent. A dark view of the world won't get you to where you want to be.

I only speak from experience. I see a LOT of jerks out there. But, on the other hand, I have met some very cool people. The main problem is that the cool people act civil and don't cause a ruckus. The jerks like to stir up trouble in one way or another every chance that they get, (that is why they are jerks.)

I do agree that a uniformly dark world view isn't the best way to go, BUT having an opposite view point where you believe the world is completely beautiful and everyone is just wonderful & peachy keen will just lead to disappointment and cynicism.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 06, 2013, 01:45:58 PM
Toronto.

So, the Get Along Gang were from Canada? Hmmm...interesting.

Quote from: Tessa James on December 06, 2013, 11:39:23 AM
Good morning Miss Bungle, nice new avatar couple there. 

Howdy. Yeah, Dotty & Portia look awesome in their new clothes. ;D

I am an exception to this.  I'm 64 years old, still in good health, retired with a more than adequate income for life.  In another few months I'll be on Medicare and never have to worry about health insurance.

I own my house and cars.  My child is fully educated with a Master's degree.  Now, having passed all of life's tests I look forward to being my own person and living the way I like.  No one can fire me, and my income is very secure.

I enjoy being retired.  I enjoy security.  After decades of striving and fulfilling other people expectations I get to do what I want.

Randi 

Quote from: learningtolive on December 04, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
I fear aging, but that has nothing to do with my gender.  Male or female, no one looks forward to getting old. 

good for you

Quote from: learningtolive on December 04, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
I fear aging.

I don't.

You can't help the fact that you age.

Honestly, I don't worry about it. Hell, if the doctors predictions had been correct, I would have died sometime in the early 90s. But I am still here and I plan on being an old broad someday. (Or I hope to be, anyway)

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 06, 2013, 09:33:18 AM
I guess it depends on each individual's personal level of gender dysphoria.  A human is capable of doing a lot of things that are not so pleasant in their life.  I was able to somehow contain my true self for 50 years.

Yeah , maybe . If that is so, my level of dysphoria was pretty great :'( - at 23 I could not bear it anymore even though it was just the 1990ies and still rather hard to transition :\

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 06, 2013, 11:14:06 AM
I keep seeing this line of thinking over and over: "Maybe people are just saying you pass/regrading you as a woman or man (if you are FtM) to be nice." I SERIOUSLY doubt that is the case. People can be total pricks most of the time

No, people can be really nice and be really tolerant but still treat you differently. They will call you a woman and say "I am accepting you as a woman" but you know they are not. They just say words, they do not mean it, it is not even their fault...it runs in the back of their head. They want to be nice people and tolerant but the back of their head says otherwise.

Quote from: Randi on December 06, 2013, 02:16:19 PM
I am an exception to this.  I'm 64 years old, still in good health, retired with a more than adequate income for life.  In another few months I'll be on Medicare and never have to worry about health insurance.

I own my house and cars.  My child is fully educated with a Master's degree.  Now, having passed all of life's tests I look forward to being my own person and living the way I like.  No one can fire me, and my income is very secure.

I enjoy being retired.  I enjoy security.  After decades of striving and fulfilling other people expectations I get to do what I want.

Randi

I would say based on your situation you are a wonderful exception to the example I posted. Unlike the woman I described you are in a place of security at 64. Which if you ask me is pretty amazing. So the risk of loosing that security lessens a great deal. I think passing would be another thing entirely. And even if you never do, your at a point in life where it really won't matter.

I'm glad you've posted this because I think in your case it will be worth it.

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 06, 2013, 09:33:18 AM
I guess it depends on each individual's personal level of gender dysphoria.  A human is capable of doing a lot of things that are not so pleasant in their life.  I was able to somehow contain my true self for 50 years.  That's not to say it didn't surface a few times down thru the years, but I was able to smother it, until this last time.  Do I wish the opportunity had come a lot earlier in my life to deal with this?  Heck, yeah I do, but it didn't happen.  I'm 59 now and it's "deal with it or die" time for me.  It's just that simple.

I think it's more complicated than just level of dysphoria. Dysphoria comes and goes... it's chronic pain and there are methods of dealing with chronic pain. There are ways to lessen the dysphoria and there are ways to (naturally) lower testosterone (and thereby lower dysphoria). There are a ton of variables that go into our individual situations.

My dysphoria was very strong in high school. It's very strong now. The only difference I had when I was closeted was a gain of about 45 lbs (going from BMI Normal or slightly Overweight to well into Obese I)... but there are studies that show testosterone decreases of up to half in obese individuals.

My dysphoria was still strong while I was closeted. I had daily methods of coping with it and only when it was extra bad (usually during certain social/sexual situations) did I really become aware of it.

It's certainly about the dysphoria... but I wouldn't say amount of dysphoria is really what gets us out of the closet... it's just one of the triggers. (And I'm sure I wouldn't have lasted to 35 if I'd been in shape the entire time... but I'm also not sure how I lasted as long as I did considering the need I attempted to fill, daily).

Quote from: Randi on December 06, 2013, 02:16:19 PM
I am an exception to this.  I'm 64 years old, still in good health, retired with a more than adequate income for life.  In another few months I'll be on Medicare and never have to worry about health insurance.

I own my house and cars.  My child is fully educated with a Master's degree.  Now, having passed all of life's tests I look forward to being my own person and living the way I like.  No one can fire me, and my income is very secure.

I enjoy being retired.  I enjoy security.  After decades of striving and fulfilling other people expectations I get to do what I want.

Randi

Well, I don't fear being 24 now that I am; however, when I was 18, I was terrified.  And that's how I feel about one day turning 30.  Yeah, it probably won't be bad once I get there, but it's still scary.  We all feel differently about aging, but most people tend to get afraid of getting older than what they currently are.  While they may come to enjoy where they will end up and where they are at the moment, most don't really look forward to putting on more years.  Though, I think it is unrelated to transitioning.  It's just a part of life that we have to learn to accept.  At the end of the day, one's age doesn't matter much in terms of passing or not.  There are many other factors that are important.  Age has little to do with transitioning or whether someone can pass (well, unless you do it very young).

Quote from: learningtolive on December 07, 2013, 07:23:40 AM
Well, I don't fear being 24 now that I am; however, when I was 18, I was terrified.  And that's how I feel about one day turning 30.  Yeah, it probably won't be bad once I get there, but it's still scary. 

Lord Have Mercy...I'm 35 years older than you!    I'm not trying to discount your own personal fears in any way, but everyone gets older.  There's NO way around it!  AND...I'm just starting this transition journey! You think I'm not scared at my age? Think again!  There's a part of me that's so ecstatic and relieved that my true self is finally starting to emerge...and another part of me that says WTH are you doing at your age?  Know what I mean?  But I feel like I'm 24 inside right now!  The key is... DON'T ACT YOUR AGE!   :)
Physical beauty fades but a beautiful heart lasts forever... 

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 07, 2013, 11:26:12 AM
Lord Have Mercy...I'm 35 years older than you!    I'm not trying to discount your own personal fears in any way, but everyone gets older.  There's NO way around it!  AND...I'm just starting this transition journey! You think I'm not scared at my age? Think again!  There's a part of me that's so ecstatic and relieved that my true self is finally starting to emerge...and another part of me that says WTH are you doing at your age?  Know what I mean?  But I feel like I'm 24 inside right now!  The key is... DON'T ACT YOUR AGE!   :)
Physical beauty fades but a beautiful heart lasts forever... 

I don't think anyone is getting what I'm trying to say; although, I acknowledge that it's probably my own fault for not properly articulating what I mean.   You are right that everyone gets older and that there is no way around it.  What I've been trying to say is that most of us are scared of it even though it's inevitable.  It's human nature.  Regardless of that fear, one shouldn't let that dictate whether or not they transition.  It's not too late to transition at 75, 60, 30, or 20.  What's important is that you do what's right for you as an individual.  If anyone thinks I'm saying that transitioning is a young person's path, that's not what I intended.  I'm just saying that age is a scary thing to me no matter what.  I just never understood the people who say "I'm afraid of aging and becoming an old this or that, so I shouldn't transition".  It just seems hard for me to understand that mindset.   Fear of passing is understandable to me, but I don't get how age should be a factor on whether or not we transition.   So, yeah, I fear being a grandma one day or losing my so called "beauty" but that doesn't mean that I'm going down the wrong path for having that concern or that transitioning isn't worth it.  Everyone has those aging fears when they are younger (for the most part).  Passing and age are separate things in my book.  There was some conversation on the aging process, and that's why I brought it up.  What I intend to say is fear of aging is natural, but it's separate to passing and whether one should transition.  Age, beauty and passing shouldn't be conflated.  They are all different things.  Fear of passing makes sense to me because of the desire of social acceptance, but letting one's looks or age factor into deciding whether to transition doesn't.  While I fear that I will get older and lose my looks, I still want to be viewed as a woman.  It may suck that I will get older and my looks will fade, still it's an unfortunate part of life.  In the end, those fears and realities don't dictate my path.  Passing and social acceptance, however, seems to matter to me.  How much?  I've yet to fully comprehend it myself.  I'm transitioning no matter what and it is worth it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say passing was important to me.  Nonetheless, passing is distinct from beauty and age (as is age and beauty). 

Hope I'm making some kind of sense.  I've probably confused everyone, myself included, lol.  ;) :D

Quote from: learningtolive on December 07, 2013, 01:15:41 PM
What I've been trying to say is that most of us are scared of it even though it's inevitable.

Well...I have to somewhat disagree with you, I'm not quite sure most feel that way.

Quote
I just never understood the people who say "I'm afraid of aging and becoming an old this or that, so I shouldn't transition".  It just seems hard for me to understand that mindset.   Fear of passing is understandable to me, but I don't get how age should be a factor on whether or not we transition.

Listen...passing is a HUGE part of this.  I'd be lying if I said I don't think I'll ever worry about passing. I'd also be lying if I didn't say I'm scared to death about transition.   Is it easier or harder for an older individual to pass?  Who knows? But I'm about to find out. I wish I'd been able to transition at 24.  I'm not saying it's a cakewalk for anyone to transition at any age.  But, I've seen the before/after pics of folks in their early 20's and it's mind blowing!!! 8) While passing is a huge part of this, the even more HUGE part is the mind and the heart, aka what's inside you.  The end goal is to not feel dead inside any longer...and be HAPPY!!!  And that's exactly what I'm shooting for!   8)

I  feel extremely confident with the choice I made.

Whatever you do try & do it early in life, the less T bad stuff the better & nice estrogen will help so much easier.

I don't know.. what if you see transition as changing as a person instead of swapping genders? Because I guess that is what many are doing and in that case transition is always a good thing for you as a person.

I think for most people it would depend on their situation. For example, if you thought friends, family, and coworkers would accept you on that journey, it would be a no brainer whether you passed or not.

Personally I'm not in that situation. I work retail. It's pretty easy to fire me and me not be able to get a job. So if I knew I wouldn't pass, then probably not.

Quote from: bingunginter on December 03, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
I would not accept to be ugly female either.

A woman MUST be beautiful of course, that's an obligation.

Good old heterosexual male sexism.

Quote from: Kirey on November 23, 2014, 08:06:08 AM
I don't know.. what if you see transition as changing as a person instead of swapping genders? Because I guess that is what many are doing and in that case transition is always a good thing for you as a person.

That´s a very good point IMO Kirey

If I can't transition to pass I would probably end up being one of the 40% of transgender that commits suicide.

That said I'm pretty sure anyone can pull it off with enough effort and resources.

Being accepted is more important than passing.

Quote from: big kim on November 24, 2014, 05:42:25 AM
Being accepted is more important than passing.

Absolutely....but, like it or not, on a practical level passing helps dramatically in being accepted as very few people feel comfortable being around a woman who everyone else sees as a man.

Quote from: big kim on November 24, 2014, 05:42:25 AM
Being accepted is more important than passing.

Maybe, maybe not. If I am constantly viewed by everyone as "the tra**y" and not "Kate" I would have really serious issues.

I think acceptance of transgender individuals by society in general is a good thing though.

I also think "passing" doesn't have to be equated with looking pretty. I just want to look normal, as in what a female is supposed to look like. If I can pull that off I would be happy. And I'm fairly confident that anyone can with enough effort and resources.

So yes, passing is important, but you don't have to look like Miss America to do it. You can look like the girl next door, the girl working at McDonalds, or even the postal clerk or female police officer, who might not look all that pretty but she looks like a normal woman. And yes there may be misgendering here and there but as long as it's not constant I can live with it.

Quote from: GeorgE on November 24, 2014, 07:56:05 AM
My MTF point of view:

Hello, even if you end up looking not as attractive a girl as you hoped for during and after transitioning.  Isn't the point you are a girl?  We come in all size, shape and color.  I don't care if I'm an ugly girl as long as I am one!  OK, yes, looking pretty is important but still...

I agree. And this is my point about "passing."

I don't necessarily have to be ultra beautiful, because I think I would end up being fake and attracting attention.

However when people look at me, see me move and hear me speak they must see "woman" and not "man."

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 03, 2013, 07:08:45 AM
I always said I'd go full time when people started gendering me as female when I was showing the world that I was male. Thank God that happened, because IDK if I would've continued living if it didn't.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about people treating you as something other than a man, or a freak, or as some honorary girl that everybody uses the right pronouns on because they consider your feelings, but in their minds they're like "OK I know that's really a guy so expect *her* to be a man most of the time". It's about being treated as what YOU see fit as respectful towards YOU. At least that's what it's about for me.

This.

I honestly don't know, this is one of the greatest dilemmas I have. I'm 6'1, I have a very broad build because of genetics and lots of heavy physical work from a very early age. I'm 22 now, had big downs, put on a bunch of weight I shouldn't have, and quite honestly, unless I have a very optimistic day, I just can't see myself passing or being gendered as female by anyone. I'm still planning my transition, solely based on the facts that there are tall girls out there, there are broad girls out there, there are overweight girls out there, and as it's been said before me, if I can be a girl, even an ugly one, it's worth it. But if it's strictly down to passing, then yes, I need to pass, otherwise it doesn't seem to worth it.

Oh - that is a fitting word - being seen as a "honorary girl". This is good - it describes what I try to bring across some of the times if people ask me why I insist on being stealth if possible even though Germany is very accepting nowadays. Its because I dont want to have that honorary title there. I experienced that some tomes in my life and while everyone was nice and using the right name and pronounds and all that and in a way also nice to give me fashion tips and tips on shoes and hair and makeup... I felt like I am an honorary apprentice girl - a wannabe. No, I hated that deeply even though everyone was nice towards me - but I knew they still would not see me as a normal girl around, probably none of them would have shared a room in a hotel with me if needed. Such things are giveaways that people dont really see you in the right gender.

I guess it never is easy to fit into every job possible when you are seen as trans. For many jobs or if you already have a job and did great work, that is not an issue, but it definitely is harder. So yes of course, "not passing" can be a real financial issue.
Did you know that this is why Harry Benjamin "invented" the "Real life test"? It was not as it was used later on to test the persons true gender or diagnose transsexuality, it was merely a very tough situation where you could simply end up poor and starving if you were not accepted in your gender, so he was suggesting to first do this on a temporary basis before the permanent surgeries because what good would the surgeries be if you are then stuck in a situation that leaves you basically homeless and broke.

But I was more referring to the social aspects. Exclusion or different treatment by peers is hurtful. Being in a group of women and cleraly feeling that they see one differently, as "not one of us", mayve hug each other for goodbye and you get a handshake instead - that subtle things to me ar almost more hurtful as if some stranger comes up and would call me "sir" at the supermarket.

Quote from: anjaq on November 24, 2014, 05:36:12 PM
Oh - that is a fitting word - being seen as a "honorary girl". This is good - it describes what I try to bring across some of the times if people ask me why I insist on being stealth if possible even though Germany is very accepting nowadays. Its because I dont want to have that honorary title there. I experienced that some tomes in my life and while everyone was nice and using the right name and pronounds and all that and in a way also nice to give me fashion tips and tips on shoes and hair and makeup... I felt like I am an honorary apprentice girl - a wannabe. No, I hated that deeply even though everyone was nice towards me - but I knew they still would not see me as a normal girl around, probably none of them would have shared a room in a hotel with me if needed. Such things are giveaways that people dont really see you in the right gender.

"I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man with no feet." -- Ancient Proverb

Look up Sona Avedian if you have concerns about passing.

Quote from: Wynternight on November 27, 2014, 11:55:47 AM
Look up Sona Avedian if you have concerns about passing.

Sweet Aphrodite  :o She's gorgeous.

I'd say it was definitely worth it for me. I never could imagine myself growing up to be a guy & being a girl is so natural. If I had to act like a guy it would be completely forced. Living a life where you have to force yourself to act a certain way just to live isn't necessarily worth it in my opinion. So, yes. I would say that transitioning is almost always worth it depending on your circumstances. I mean... almost always worth it. Just take a nice look at your circumstances & what you have to lose. If your life is worth living miserably as the gender you were assigned at birth, then maybe transitioning isn't necessary. If you are truly 100% dysphoric over being the other gender, then transitioning can be very worth it. All just depends on circumstances & how strong your dysphoria is.

Quote from: TSJasmine on November 27, 2014, 04:19:16 PM
If your life is worth living miserably as the gender you were assigned at birth, then maybe transitioning isn't necessary. If you are truly 100% dysphoric over being the other gender, then transitioning can be very worth it. All just depends on circumstances & how strong your dysphoria is.

Uhh, no.

I can certainly live miserably as a man but it probably wouldn't end well for me.

In my case I reached the tipping point because I just could not concentrate on anything else but getting dressed up in my wife's and later my own girl clothes. When I started experimenting with hormones and it made me feel good, that really did it for me.

Yes.

For me, passing is a philosophical dilemma. It only matters if I assign any value to it. But it will never change the fact I am woman. If I won't pass, other might disagree that I am woman, but their shortsightedness isn't of any concern. Both situations do not change reality, a reality which is a mere subjective reality. Or as surrealist painter René Magritte taught us: Ceci n'est pas une pipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images).

As I've said before about passing, it isn't about looking gorgeous. It's about looking normal. I plan to look normal.

Quote from: ImagineKate on November 27, 2014, 08:12:09 PM
As I've said before about passing, it isn't about looking gorgeous. It's about looking normal. I plan to look normal.

Don't worry, you'll pass just fine and are practically passing now. With makeup atleast, I wouldn't think trans if I saw you on the street. I can only see your face though. But facewise, you're gold.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on November 27, 2014, 08:16:16 PM
Don't worry, you'll pass just fine and are practically passing now. With makeup atleast, I wouldn't think trans if I saw you on the street. I can only see your face though. But facewise, you're gold.

Thanks Joanna.

Body wise I need work but that is what HRT is for. Hopefully I start Monday? :)