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Has anyone ever received any good help with these two combined diagnoses?

Hi abcde, welcome to Susan's Place! I'm from Boston. We have several members with Aspergers, I'll hang out with you until they show up! Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: abcde on December 06, 2013, 03:50:25 PM
Has anyone ever received any good help with these two combined diagnoses?

Sorry, I figured everything out myself.

You did not state any information, so I wont go into details.

Note: I previously asked the forum admin to make an autism category, so that autism information would be categorized, and easily accessible to members, however they did not. I even pay the $20/month.

Thanks, it's just very personal right now.  Details are hard.  It is a young friend that is diagnosed aspergers and now also says she really feels like she is a boy.  I feel like the connection is there, but it is very difficult to understand as it is so complex.  I wish there was some professional guidance to help her understand this complex body she is in. Any suggestions?

Well there is a line of thinking which says that Autism - particularly in its Aspergers form shares many attributes with masculine thinking, and that therefore perhaps having Aspergers is like having a very masculinized brain.

I don't think the theory has ever been proved, but I can see how there might be a possible connection.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 07, 2013, 05:39:09 PM
Well there is a line of thinking which says that Autism - particularly in its Aspergers form shares many attributes with masculine thinking, and that therefore perhaps having Aspergers is like having a very masculinized brain.

I don't think the theory has ever been proved, but I can see how there might be a possible connection.

Which reminds me of a girl i know from Asperger therapy and am planning to spend some time with soon, but during the week is too stressful for me. I just want to be left alone and have some kind after a hard day.

I'm diagnosed as both.  I'd be willing to bet my oldest child is both as well (won't get him started w/ therapy until later this month).  One of my younger daughters I'd bet my paycheck has some form of light autism/ aspergers too, but I don't get the impression she'll end up trans.

Is there a connection?  Anecdotally, I'd have to say yes.  I have a working theory on it atm, but until I get finished with school I won't have time to delve into it.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 07, 2013, 05:51:55 PM
I'm diagnosed as both.  I'd be willing to bet my oldest child is both as well (won't get him started w/ therapy until later this month).  One of my younger daughters I'd bet my paycheck has some form of light autism/ aspergers too, but I don't get the impression she'll end up trans.

Is there a connection?  Anecdotally, I'd have to say yes.  I have a working theory on it atm, but until I get finished with school I won't have time to delve into it.

Wow, I cannot believe this.

My dad has both too, but I always felt uncomfortable to say it online.

We are both very feminite looking male-bodied, and my estrogen levels were very high as a youth. I saw pictures of him
as a youth, and you can see the "estrogen glow" you get from having some estrogen in your face.

He lived such an angry and disturbed life, and when my trans issue came out , he confessed to me that he wanted to be girl when he was young. He was so angry and destructive his whole life.

I am dx autism too. They said I have a genetic disorder.

I read online another case of an AS-trans child with a father in which the article said "father has gender issues".

Wow this blows my mind to see another parent-child relationship.

The doctors did not like when I brought this up.

My treatment and understanding of my conditions is very different than the trans people here.

Quote from: abcde on December 07, 2013, 04:34:07 PM
I wish there was some professional guidance to help her understand this complex body she is in. Any suggestions?

My opinion is that you should call doctors, and find one that has worked with both trans people, and autism people.

You definitely want to be concerned that AS can cause "OCD" behavior.

AS girls traits:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/images/img244154ad237783e339.JPG

Take note: On the left side of the link, seventh paragraph down, it says "may not have a strong sense of identity ... can be cameleon like ..."

I have read a lot of cis-autistic girls and cis-autistic woman (not trans) on Wrong Planet that ...

-don't wear makeup
-don't dress up instead, just wear what is comfortable
-don't fuss with hair
-prefer to have very little socialization
-complain of having boobs (see no point in them)

Anecdotally, it seems that a cis-ASD/AS female is very close to what a male is expected to be like. I don't know if that would influence someone to think they are transgendered or not. I am just stating my observations, and in view of the ASD/AS-girl trait link above.

I hope I do not upset anyone here, I'm just tossing out something that has crossed my mind.  I don't know if it's true or not.  Here's a couple of different ways I've been thinking about this.  Like I said, I haven't had the time to flesh these thoughts out, but I intend to play with them a bit to see where it goes once I'm done with this accursed semester.  I'm inclined to say atm that they feed off of each other, though it could also be possible that they are totally separate.  The list of GID traits and Aspergers traits overlap at several points.

People with Aspergers have extreme difficulty understanding others' emotions.  In a social setting of primarily their own gender (as is the case in early childhood when genders tend to group among themselves), it would be reasonable to think that they just do not fit in.  This could cause a couple of different reactions, either causing the person to form GID or to exacerbate an already underlying GID.

There could be ways where GID patients could also exhibit some of the symptoms of Aspergers as well.  Aversion to social settings and withdrawal from others due to "not fitting in" over time could become ingrained to the point of mimicking these (and other) traits of Aspergers.

Whether one caused the other or they are totally separate is only relevant for understanding.  Because they both exist, both need to be treated.  I have found (in my case alone) that my social impairments have been somewhat helped by HRT treatment, though the other traits of Aspergers remains largely untouched.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 08, 2013, 07:55:51 AM
I'm inclined to say atm that they feed off of each other, though it could also be possible that they are totally separate.  The list of GID traits and Aspergers traits overlap at several points.

Having met a few AS-trans adults I can say that the severity of their autism varies, and their traits vary as well.

I met one AS-trans woman who could not make eye-contact, and was immensely uncomfortable with anyone being near her.

Another AS-trans woman was nearly normal, very social, and appeared to not even have a ASD.

Myself, an AS-mtf person, I have slight mental-processing/speech-enunciation problems. I have the ASD-trait of making few facial expressions my whole life which I have not seen in others.

The ASD-trans people on Wrong Planet are varied too in their traits.

These differences in traits would have to be considered in your thinking. If these conditions are related ("feeding off each other"), then why do they produce humans with different ASD traits? The trans condition appears to be constant person to person, whereas, ASD/AS varies person to person. Further, the different ASD traits appear to be rather severe to be caused by the trans condition.

How would the trans condition cause sensory problems in some, or one not to be able to walk straight, or cause trouble forming speech ? Further, it would seem that once the trans condition is corrected, then if one did feed off the other, then the other condition would be fixed too. As you state, this did not happen for you.

So, perhaps you are implying that perhaps the ASD condition may cause the trans condition ?

If so, then I assume you recognize the trans condition is not merely psychological , or do you ? As I posted above, there suggesting a cis-AS/ASD female perhaps could be "confused" into believing she is a trans-man would be an example of psychological causation of the trans condition by the AS/ASD condition. The link I posted even says that AS can cause "sense of identity" difficulty.

Let's assume you recognize the trans condition as something not psychological, then are you suggesting the ASD causes physical formation of the trans condition to happen in the brain ? So that the trans condition is just another ASD-trait caused by the AS/ASD condition?

I am not disagreeing with you. Just working through your thinking.

My feeling has always been that these conditions occur simultaneously, and are correlated by bad luck or bad genetics, however, it seems plausible that the trans condition could just be an ASD trait caused by ASD.

Thanks.

I just joined and really needed this thread. I am an FTM person who also scores very high on adult Asperger's online screening tests (can't find a professional who could assess me as an adult, but I have struggled with this my entire life). That jpg someone posted? At least 90% true for me.

Anyway, I am really struggling because I hate being transgender and feel I may have made a mistake by transitioning. I already de-transitioned and re-transitioned once, though. Yes, I have been in therapy off and on for years. A big part of the problem is that I cant make and keep friends, so I really need support and cant really access it. Right now I'm feeling pretty hopeless about ever fitting into this world, my body, my relationship (which is currently complicated by my spouse entering transition), etc.

I do wonder how much of my struggle is about Asperger's. Maybe I am not even trans. I feel like I have ruined my life - and it isn't like I'm young. I am 36, yet I need way more support than my peers. I wish I could try again and not mess everything up.

Sorry for the slow reply, Microeconomics, Business Math, and Accounting have kept me tied up :)  As soon as I get a chance I'll get a reply typed up.  Finals week sucks :(

I suppose the irony of this is that (at least from my observational point of view) IF, and I emphasise the word if, there is some degree of correlation between extreme masculinisation of the brain and Aspergers then MtF HRT and transition might actually improve things but FtM and testosterone could make it worse...

My reasoning is this, and bear in mind that I am not a sufferer from Aspergers, so this really is only observational...

My experience of HRT was that it enhanced my emotional connections and further reinforced my, admittedly already fairly well developed, empathic abilities.

If that effect was replicated in someone who previously struggled with understanding emotions I think it might lessen their difficulties so I have wondered if perhaps the reaching out for being female is an almost instinctive attempt to fix the perceived difficulty. The internal logic might go something like this "I am struggling with my emotional relationships with others, observationally women seem to have a closer emotional bond with each other than men, therefore if I was a woman I would have less difficulty..."

The interesting thing is I think estrogen does subtly alter the way your brain functions. I'm not one of those who support the "women are from venus and men are from mars" extreme theories, but I do perceive qualitative differences in perception, and approach, and so I think that is some mileage in the idea of hormonal moderation of thinking style - and that could have some clinical relevance.

As I say that is my theory and I would be really interested to hear from anyone if it makes any sort of sense to them?

Quote from: genderhell on December 08, 2013, 04:44:37 PM
Having met a few AS-trans adults I can say that the severity of their autism varies, and their traits vary as well.

Absolutely!  The severity of symptoms isn't in question, since it's obvious some people have very mild symptoms and it can be debilitating for others.  The parts that I am interested in are:

1) Are the symptoms of Aspergers exacerbated by GID
2) Are the symptoms of GID exacerbated by Aspergers
3) Are the two different diagnoses correlated somehow

Quote from: genderhell on December 08, 2013, 04:44:37 PM
If so, then I assume you recognize the trans condition is not merely psychological , or do you ?

No, I do not believe GID is merely psychological.  I'm working through this now, and there are definitely psychological symptoms, but the root is likely genetic.  In addition to myself, I have a son who is struggling with GID, a daughter I'll bet is mildly autistic, and now I've started looking at the family tree.  From what little information I have so far, I have an uncle (dad's youngest brother) that was extremely effeminately gay and seems to have had traits that would have pointed to Aspergers.  He died before I was a teenager, so it's a little touch and go trying to get information.  While I know one family does not make a solid study, it is difficult to dismiss as coincidental.

Quote from: genderhell on December 08, 2013, 04:44:37 PM

The trans condition appears to be constant person to person

I'm going to have to disagree here, though possibly only in semantics.  GID apparently differs in degree.  Some people handle it just fine simply by knowing and understanding it.  Some need low dose HRT to cope, some transition to another point in the gender spectrum.  Most of the time, only the latter group would be fit under the trans label.  And I am not being thorough for simplicity's sake; there are numerous other categories in the GID spectrum that could be listed.

Back to the theory I have.  I'm looking at this primarily through a social lens.  GID typically causes social anxiety and a feeling of being different and outcast.  Aspergers causes the same social reaction.  People with one of these two conditions typically have few friends and very little social life.  At early ages, it stands to reason that both groups would generally pull away from society and be "loners".  As they age, they usually find coping mechanisms that help them integrate into society at some level.

The three points I listed above come into play when these two conditions are comorbid.  It seems reasonable that, on the social level, GID symptoms and Asperger symptoms would exacerbate one another and cause social problems to become magnified.

But what about the aspie who is misdiagnosed (would OVER-diagnosed fit better here)?  If you take a look at that link, there is a striking resemblance between Asperger's and GID symptoms, especially in the appearance/ personal habits column.  A GID diagnosis here might be correct or incorrect; it would be difficult to tell.  Using HRT as a diagnostic tool (ethics aside) would probably reveal the truth given a little time.  GID very likely exists in some degree, but the level of GID would be tough to determine until the Aspergers symptoms are filtered out (something I'm not entirely sure is possible.)

The same sort of situation presents itself from the other side of the spectrum.  Since GID patients are typically loners in early life, intellectual studies are common.  This leads to higher intelligence (yes, I know, chicken and egg argument... does intelligence cause interest in intellectual pursuits or does intellectual pursuits lead to higher intelligence?  Something interesting to think about for another time).  It stands to reason that the GID patient would naturally exhibit traits both from the social, emotional, and intellectual columns.  Could this lead to an over-diagnosis of Aspergers as well?  Once again, the probability is quite high that some degree of aspie exists, but it is hard to figure out how much until the GID traits are filtered out.

And this is where I'm stuck, trying to find the point where they can be realistically sorted out and the degree of each could be determined.  HRT as a diagnostic tool sounds rather dubious from an ethical standpoint.  Aspergers has slightly different attributes between the male and female end of the spectrum, and perhaps that's a decent starting point.  But then we get back to the problem of different aspies manifesting their traits in different ways and in different degrees, so that approach is also problematic.

Doctorwho, you posted while I was typing and juggling the baby :)  Yup, makes logical sense, and although I can't speak for all aspies, that's gone through my mind many times before.  It's pretty typical of my short, sweet, and disturbingly logical thought processes.  Doesn't always make those thoughts true, I know, but it's how I think.  Oversimplification works miracles in technical work, but sometimes it has bitten me in the butt when dealing with life in general.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 10, 2013, 06:50:36 AM
I suppose the irony of this is that (at least from my observational point of view) IF, and I emphasise the word if, there is some degree of correlation between extreme masculinisation of the brain and Aspergers then MtF HRT and transition might actually improve things but FtM and testosterone could make it worse...

My reasoning is this, and bear in mind that I am not a sufferer from Aspergers, so this really is only observational...

My experience of HRT was that it enhanced my emotional connections and further reinforced my, admittedly already fairly well developed, empathic abilities.

If that effect was replicated in someone who previously struggled with understanding emotions I think it might lessen their difficulties so I have wondered if perhaps the reaching out for being female is an almost instinctive attempt to fix the perceived difficulty. The internal logic might go something like this "I am struggling with my emotional relationships with others, observationally women seem to have a closer emotional bond with each other than men, therefore if I was a woman I would have less difficulty..."

The interesting thing is I think estrogen does subtly alter the way your brain functions. I'm not one of those who support the "women are from venus and men are from mars" extreme theories, but I do perceive qualitative differences in perception, and approach, and so I think that is some mileage in the idea of hormonal moderation of thinking style - and that could have some clinical relevance.

As I say that is my theory and I would be really interested to hear from anyone if it makes any sort of sense to them?

Hormones absolutely affect emotional response - for me, at least. Testosterone made it easier for me to simply pull away altogether. It has made it easier for me to shut down my desire to connect (not entirely) enough to become very isolated. When I do want to access emotions, I struggle.

Before testosterone, I was not only more emotional but also felt more able to connect emotionally even though I struggled to make and keep friends. I could not have imagined that it would be harder with testosterone on board, but it has been for me. Important to recognize that part of this is about how society expects men to not need support and I have no clue how to get my needs met in the face of this.

Quote from: invisibleme on December 10, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
I do wonder how much of my struggle is about Asperger's. Maybe I am not even trans. I feel like I have ruined my life - and it isn't like I'm young. I am 36, yet I need way more support than my peers. I wish I could try again and not mess everything up.

please explain

It is very common for people to have AS and not be diagnosed. Some AS people can be very "high-functioning" and only appear "quirky". AS Females
are supposedly better at passing as normal than AS males.

Based on this ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Do you think you have AS? Why?

Would you say you have "difficulties in social interaction"?

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 10, 2013, 06:50:36 AM
I suppose the irony of this is that (at least from my observational point of view) IF, and I emphasise the word if, there is some degree of correlation between extreme masculinisation of the brain and Aspergers then MtF HRT and transition might actually improve things but FtM and testosterone could make it worse...

"Extreme Masculinization" is the headline , what is meant is that AS people tend to lose socializing/empathizing brain capability, and gain systemizing capability.

I have heard it stated many times that AS females can "pass" as normal easier than AS males, so it could be "worse" for a FTM I would think. As a MtF Trans woman my personality is submissive, and easy-going and I am partially brain damaged it feels like. It is easier for me to function in a workplace, and in society as a submissive, easy-going person. 

The male AS people in my family are unemployed, because they cannot function in the workplace. They seem confrontational to things. They won't be submissive to authority, to their bosses, to doing what they are told to do even if they think it is wrong. It is like they have an attitude, and they are going to do it their way and only their way. They moved away from people, and live alone now. It is often said on Wrong Planet that 80% of AS people are unemployed.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 10, 2013, 07:45:02 AM
GID very likely exists in some degree, but the level of GID would be tough to determine until the Aspergers symptoms are filtered out (something I'm not entirely sure is possible.)

I wrote out a huge response and the accidentally deleted it. *Sigh*

I was wondering if you consider "GID" to "exist" after a person has corrected their hormones and their original personality can express itself?

Isn't it "GID" that is "filtered out" ?

aww, would have been interesting to read :(  I've enjoyed reading this so far; it's giving me good stuff to think on, and I thank you for that :)

Does GID exist once hormones have been corrected?  Tough one, a lot tougher to answer than at first glance.

I would say initially that it exists for the pre-op, because going off of HRT does seem to cause a relapse of the dysphoria.  In the long run (post op), I would say it's a different story, since the hormone levels wouldn't be forced back into the offending range.  But I haven't looked long-term too much yet as all of this is still kinda new to me.

The biggest part of my thinking has been pretty much about the diagnosis and initial treatment of these two.  It might be interesting to work through some long term case studies after Friday and get a feel for that.

I am beginning to think that there is a serious medical study in the makings here.

Further I think that as a medical student who needs to do some research as part of my degree, and because getting published will improve my post graduation employment prospects a great deal... I may just be the right person to carry it out.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on December 11, 2013, 05:33:39 AM
I am beginning to think that there is a serious medical study in the makings here.

Now THAT is something I'd love to get my hands on if you write it! :)

There is definitely something to all of this, it's got the right feel to it. (yes, I know that sounds totally stupid LOL)

#EDIT#

Doctorwho, I think I might have found a way to test this.  If you're serious about the study, feel free to PM me.

I don't know if I have AS but score consistently near the top of every screening I have done online. I'm looking for a local professional who can assess me. Someone posted a JPG with 'female AS traits' - I have all but 1 or 2 even after transition to male. Not sure if I am higher functioning, but I am disabled (by a genetic condition in addition to other stuff) and feel like my functioning is pretty low compared to 'average'.

Invisibleme, take a look at this list if you would:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_4a3112c8/wp_4a3112c8.html

This is a more general list whereas the first one was more oriented towards a "female Asperger".  If you want to see the summary of differences between the two, check this link:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/images/img287904ad237f1d2ab3.JPG

I would be very interested to see where you think you fit, more on the male or female side.  It might give me something to work with and possibly give you a hand figuring things out.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 11, 2013, 05:27:50 AM
aww, would have been interesting to read :(  I've enjoyed reading this so far; it's giving me good stuff to think on, and I thank you for that :)

I will write it all out again. Not today though.

I had listed all my family members and their conditions. Everyone from my dad inherited autism of some kind. My grandfather on my dad's side would not visit anyone, and did not like to leave his home so he might of had autism. I have an aunt that did not like to leave her house, and cannot function on the job as an accountant. She got a 4.0 GPA in accounting and works at McDonalds because it is less stress. She cannot work in the workplace, but McDonalds performing a repetitive task - she can do. She might have AS.

Also, I have one bother that we are not sure about. He is 21 now and he is a "pretty boy" like my dad and me, and when he was young he would burn his army toys on the stove. He has been in/out of jail since 17 because of behavioral problems.

That would make three of us. His mom was worried that he is a girl. She knows about me and my dad. He joined the military but then got kicked out.

AS can mean higher intelligence because of the increase in systemizing capability. My dad won an award in math and was voted most likely to succeed in college. He was also the #1 chess player in my state in the United States for like four years I think. My brother did his B.S. and M.S. in EE (electrical engineering) at the #1 EE University at the time where he would get A+ grades which is like being in the top 3% of your class. He was one of the AS 'little professors" that act/talk like professors at a young age and correct their teachers in first or second grade. I work at the United States patent & trademark office doing patent engineering research - which if you know the federal government means I am retired since the work is so easy.  ;) My aunt got a 4.0 GPA in accounting. It seems to me these are evidence of high systemizing capability.

Also, take note, as I mentioned earlier that both my dad, and this brother, despite being so smart, and accomplished are unemployed now, because they cannot function in the workplace.  Also, my aunt works at McDonalds.

At my bank there is someone with an AS child, and he said his wife told him that there is a male heart surgeon at the nearby University hospital that has AS, and is brilliant, yet is hated by everyone, and has extreme difficulty functioning around the people there, so she was assigned to do people-negotiation for him. I cite this as further evidenc AS people can be so smart, yet have such trouble in the workplace.

I have been searching today for the articles I read that have trans-AS kids with a father who is having gender issues too.

Quote from: invisibleme on December 11, 2013, 06:55:43 AM
I don't know if I have AS but score consistently near the top of every screening I have done online. I'm looking for a local professional who can assess me. Someone posted a JPG with 'female AS traits' - I have all but 1 or 2 even after transition to male. Not sure if I am higher functioning, but I am disabled (by a genetic condition in addition to other stuff) and feel like my functioning is pretty low compared to 'average'.

Every AS person I ever met lives like a hermit as best they can. I would say this trait is what is common among us.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 10, 2013, 07:45:02 AM
Absolutely!  The severity of symptoms isn't in question, since it's obvious some people have very mild symptoms and it can be debilitating for others.  The parts that I am interested in are:

1) Are the symptoms of Aspergers exacerbated by GID
2) Are the symptoms of GID exacerbated by Aspergers
3) Are the two different diagnoses correlated somehow

The most notable example of a person AS-trans would appear to be Ted Kaczynski "Unabomber" who wanted a "sex-change" in college, and has the social isolation "hermit" like characteristic of an AS person. He was also called a genius which would in line with someone having these two conditions.

I read college literature professors say his "Manifesto" was perfectly written. That makes me think of the AS trait of having such order as to be perfection. Also, he worked as a math professor which would be an indication of high systemizing capability.

Quoted: "Convicted Unabomber Theodore J. Kaczynski considered having a sex change operation when he was in his twenties and his confusion over
his gender identity filled him with a rage that contributed to his bombing spree, according to documents released today ..."

See here .. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-673313.html

I wonder if they looked at him and saw his ASD/AS and thought "you are not a woman".

So, possibly, his GID did not get resolved, because they did not know about ASD/AS-trans people back then.

My understanding is that he spent his life writing the manifesto (no tv, no movies) by reading books, newspapers , magazines and then deriving truths about the world, and his manifesto is a list of the "truths" of the world as he saw them.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 10, 2013, 07:45:02 AM

The same sort of situation presents itself from the other side of the spectrum.  Since GID patients are typically loners in early life, intellectual studies are common.  This leads to higher intelligence (yes, I know, chicken and egg argument... does intelligence cause interest in intellectual pursuits or does intellectual pursuits lead to higher intelligence?  Something interesting to think about for another time).  It stands to reason that the GID patient would naturally exhibit traits both from the social, emotional, and intellectual columns.  Could this lead to an over-diagnosis of Aspergers as well?  Once again, the probability is quite high that some degree of aspie exists, but it is hard to figure out how much until the GID traits are filtered out.

Exactly!

I feel like I have partial brain damage, and I feel like it is too late for me to be able to determine much regarding the distinctions or co-morbidity of these conditions. Transitioning at a young age would of made me more social I am sure. I might not have become so educated or intelligent though.

A young child dx with of both conditions, like this trans-AS child below, and transitioned young, is someone that could be looked through her life to see if the AS goes away. The article states: "The mother said Jane would self-harm by banging her head against a wall ..." is perhaps being used as the reason for the dx of AS.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.couriermail.com.au%2Fnews%2Fqueensland%2Fmothers-fight-for-transgender-child-who-was-born-a-boy-to-live-as-a-girl%2Fstory-e6freoof-1226639929796&ei=q8KrUsGvHZD7kQeZ0YDoBQ&usg=AFQjCNGOhXneAZkVY1MbZmvQardbDKrG1w&sig2=-YQ62wRAXC3zL_l9nflEuA&bvm=bv.57967247,d.eW0

Quote from: genderhell on December 13, 2013, 03:59:13 PM
Every AS person I ever met lives like a hermit as best they can. I would say this trait is what is common among us.

My son (age 23) is diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome (by a psychiatrist who specializes in differential diagnosis, so I trust that it's correct), and I wouldn't describe him as a hermit.

He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl who goes there who he hangs out with.  (Not yet boyfriend/girlfriend, though.)

However, he was seeing a therapist who specializes in ASD twice a week from when he was 5 until he went off to college.  He is also rather extroverted.  The retreat center also has youth events, and he went to pretty much every one he could until he aged out of the youth program, so he has known a number of people at the family-oriented events for years.  So he's had years of positive experiences with relating to other people.  I suspect that a lot of ASD people (especially undiagnosed ASDs) have so many negative experiences that they give up on relating to anybody.  Imagine if  you were deaf and instead of teaching you ASL, people just whacked you and treated you as recalcitrant every time you didn't understand what they said.

Im going to ask to be tested for ASD and ADHD next time i go to my psychiatrists office. I seem to fit a number of symptoms for mild asd, as well has it being very painful to look people in the eyes(seriously irritating).   I just wonder how many of my issues could be caused by either or those in conjunction with GID.  Ive also had a TBI though at a young age that can/does explain some things.  I also feel im a dead ringer for 47,xxy(klinefelters).  Wont be able to get screen for genetic disorders till i have extra cash though.  Gaining a bit of perspective would be great though.

It's one of the more intriguing connections I've seen, Aspergers and GID... now that school is over for the semester I'm gonna pull out the amatuer psychology hat and explore it some.  I do wish I had some decent access to the medical journals though... might have to ask the therapist about that.

If anyone on here has some psych experience in this area I'd love to pick your brain.  I've got more thoughts on the subject, but I really don't want to keep dumping theories on top of theories until I can at least substantiate some of this.

Who looks people in the eye unless showing aggression?

Quote from: LordKAT on December 14, 2013, 08:32:12 PM
Who looks people in the eye unless showing aggression?

You can have a conversation with an ASD person, and they may never even look at you. Don't be offended. They don't mean to be rude.

They may turn 45 degrees away from you, and look in that direction, and down while engaging in a conversation with you, and never look at you, and never acknowledge your statements, but are listening and processing what you are saying. I have also seen them just never look at you and find a way to avoid your gaze - their head wanders around but will not look directly at you.

My autism doctor told me to look him in the middle of the forehead, however, that gets odd.

It is really hard to explain the discomfort of being around people, and looking them in the face, and especially the eyes is like WOW here is a person in front of me, what do I do now? If I look away, and not look at them, then it is like we are not so close, and it is sorta like they aren't there.

IMO the eyes are a problem, because it brings conscious awareness that a person is present, and the presence of a person is uncomfortable. Why the discomfort? There is a long list of reasons like social difficulties, sensory overload difficulties ... all for a different topic.

Quote from: Asche on December 14, 2013, 10:17:20 AM
He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl
However, he was seeing a therapist who specializes in ASD twice a week from when he was 5 until he went off to college.  He is also rather extroverted.

AS is diagnosed because of social dysfunction. 

"mingling" and "extrovert" does not sound like social dysfunction? You may have made slightly overly-generous statements there?

I have seen near normal AS people, so definitely AS people can be semi-social, and look normal.  However, I expect they retreat to their places of comfort to get away from people which is why they are diagnosed AS. I have never seen one "mingle" or "extroverted"; it is a near contradiction in the condition.

The Wikipedia definition describes it as "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Also, the "difficulties" in social interaction cannot be cured through repeated social interaction with others, because the difficulties occurs because of an ASD person's neurology. It probably helps though to have the ASD people know what to do to when interacting with others.

I will also point out that the word "difficulties" is a loaded term that is described from the NT (Neurotypical) perspective that if an ASD person does not fit into the "NT lifestyle" (sound familiar?? ) then it is a problem.

Quote
He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl who goes there who he hangs out with.  (Not yet boyfriend/girlfriend, though.)

This is good. Engineering is something we can be successful at.  :)

Quote from: genderhell on December 15, 2013, 02:06:11 AM
You can have a conversation with an ASD person, and they may never even look at you. Don't be offended. They don't mean to be rude.

They may turn 45 degrees away from you, and look in that direction, and down while engaging in a conversation with you, and never look at you, and never acknowledge your statements, but are listening and processing what you are saying. I have also seen them just never look at you and find a way to avoid your gaze - their head wanders around but will not look directly at you.

My autism doctor told me to look him in the middle of the forehead, however, that gets odd.

It is really hard to explain the discomfort of being around people, and looking them in the face, and especially the eyes is like WOW here is a person in front of me, what do I do now? If I look away, and not look at them, then it is like we are not so close, and it is sorta like they aren't there.

IMO the eyes are a problem, because it brings conscious awareness that a person is present, and the presence of a person is uncomfortable. Why the discomfort? There is a long list of reasons like social difficulties, sensory overload difficulties ... all for a different topic.

Exactly my point, I've never done it. I didn't think anyone ever really did.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 15, 2013, 01:09:21 PM
Exactly my point, I've never done it. I didn't think anyone ever really did.

Oh. I see.   ^-^

Yes, no offense, if you were supposedly "normal", then you would comfortably, and automatically be making eye-contact 30-60% of the time in a conversation.

source, http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324809804578511290822228174

Here is an eye-contact information page for autism that describes "no eye contact", "low eye-contact", and what people might think about you  ...

http://www.wrongplanet.net/article291.html

You have an ASD ?

I hate dominating this topic with so many posts. :embarrassed:

However, it would seem trans condition has a very high likelihood of producing a person with an ASD.

If you think about putting someone's brain on the wrong hormones, and how destructive that can be if is goes
untreated for a long time.  :icon_yikes:

Quote from: genderhell on December 15, 2013, 02:19:51 PM
I hate dominating this topic with so many posts. :embarrassed:

However, it would seem trans condition has a very high likelihood of producing a person with an ASD.

If you think about putting someone's brain on the wrong hormones, and how destructive that can be if is goes
untreated for a long time.  :icon_yikes:

This.  Which is why trans people need to be caught early enough to get help before it gets bad.  Sadly only time and awarenes will help that.

Quote from: genderhell on December 15, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
Oh. I see.   ^-^

Yes, no offense, if you were supposedly "normal", then you would comfortably, and automatically be making eye-contact 30-60% of the time in a conversation.

source, http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324809804578511290822228174

Here is an eye-contact information page for autism that describes "no eye contact", "low eye-contact", and what people might think about you  ...

http://www.wrongplanet.net/article291.html

You have an ASD ?

IDK, I just exist outside of society as a rule. I work when I have to but never leave home for any other reason that I can get out of. Once I'm home, I stay there. I avoid parties and any size groups of people, always have. As to eye contact, like I said, I thought no one did that except when trying to be aggressive.

The things in that second link hit home, big time.

Quote from: invisibleme on December 10, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
I just joined and really needed this thread. I am an FTM person who also scores very high on adult Asperger's online screening tests (can't find a professional who could assess me as an adult, but I have struggled with this my entire life). That jpg someone posted? At least 90% true for me.

Anyway, I am really struggling because I hate being transgender and feel I may have made a mistake by transitioning. I already de-transitioned and re-transitioned once, though. Yes, I have been in therapy off and on for years. A big part of the problem is that I cant make and keep friends, so I really need support and cant really access it. Right now I'm feeling pretty hopeless about ever fitting into this world, my body, my relationship (which is currently complicated by my spouse entering transition), etc.

I do wonder how much of my struggle is about Asperger's. Maybe I am not even trans. I feel like I have ruined my life - and it isn't like I'm young. I am 36, yet I need way more support than my peers. I wish I could try again and not mess everything up.

I have a 16 year old daughter feeling this way and I am having a difficult time discussing her idea of wanting to transition since I feel she may regret it at a later date as she grows and matures and her brain begins to connect with her body.  Your comments are helping me to know their are others out there with similar thoughts.  Thank you for the posts.  She wants to show me all the youtube videos of all the people that are so happy after they transition and I asked her to also find people who are trans that have not transitioned and are choosing to live as their born gender.  I think there are a lot of people like this, but they are not as easy to find.  Does anyone relate to this and could they tell me or tell her how it feels to live without transitioning?

Her brain may never connect other body as it is now. Perhaps you need to see her view as much as you want her to see yours.

abcde, feel free to message me if you like.  I'm trans and a bit aspie, and I've got a 16 year old who sounds very similar to yours.

Quote from: genderhell on December 08, 2013, 12:07:47 AM
My opinion is that you should call doctors, and find one that has worked with both trans people, and autism people.

You definitely want to be concerned that AS can cause "OCD" behavior.

AS girls traits:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/images/img244154ad237783e339.JPG

Take note: On the left side of the link, seventh paragraph down, it says "may not have a strong sense of identity ... can be cameleon like ..."

I have read a lot of cis-autistic girls and cis-autistic woman (not trans) on Wrong Planet that ...

-don't wear makeup
-don't dress up instead, just wear what is comfortable
-don't fuss with hair
-prefer to have very little socialization
-complain of having boobs (see no point in them)

Anecdotally, it seems that a cis-ASD/AS female is very close to what a male is expected to be like. I don't know if that would influence someone to think they are transgendered or not. I am just stating my observations, and in view of the ASD/AS-girl trait link above.

Thanks, this information is helpful.  The challenge is that I can not find a dr or therapist that knows both of these areas well.  It is very frustrating considering I am finding so many people online that are saying they have both of these.  I really want this to be clearly understood for my daughter and others.

Quote from: Sharon Lynn on December 17, 2013, 06:43:24 AM
abcde, feel free to message me if you like.  I'm trans and a bit aspie, and I've got a 16 year old who sounds very similar to yours.

I'm new to this forum stuff, so I really am not sure how to message, but I would like to hear more about your experiences.

Quote from: abcde on December 17, 2013, 08:02:10 PM
Thanks, this information is helpful.  The challenge is that I can not find a dr or therapist that knows both of these areas well.  It is very frustrating considering I am finding so many people online that are saying they have both of these.  I really want this to be clearly understood for my daughter and others.

You may want to consider posting a thread on Wrong Planet and explaining your situation to non-transgendered ASD/AS girls and woman.

Quote from: abcde on December 16, 2013, 11:07:21 PM
I have a 16 year old daughter feeling this way and I am having a difficult time discussing her idea of wanting to transition since I feel she may regret it at a later date as she grows and matures and her brain begins to connect with her body.  Your comments are helping me to know their are others out there with similar thoughts.  Thank you for the posts.  She wants to show me all the youtube videos of all the people that are so happy after they transition and I asked her to also find people who are trans that have not transitioned and are choosing to live as their born gender.  I think there are a lot of people like this, but they are not as easy to find.  Does anyone relate to this and could they tell me or tell her how it feels to live without transitioning?

I can relate to your position, abcde.
My girl is 19 and struggled a lot in childhood with ADHD, giftedness and a possible/marginal diagnosis of aspergers.  She has a best friend who is almost textbook aspergers.  Yes, I was concerned that these challenges complicate her feelings of being *trans. I still do. But I no longer bear unfair expectations of gender or future roles.  I let her be herself and know she is blossoming better by expressing her female self. We will continue therapy both mental and physical as long as she needs either. Try not to feel as if any of these challenges were caused by outdide forces. The only answers I am finding lie in acceptance and support.  I hope you both can do what works best.