Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My Dad mentioned to me he didn't know if it was legal for people to use the bathroom that's opposite of their body. (I'm transgender, MtF) And soon I will be going shopping for hrs. That means I'll have to use the women's bathroom more than likely. So my question here is, is it legal or not for us trans people to use the bathroom that's for the gender that's opposite of our body? If it's not legal, what will happen if we do use the bathroom that for the gender we truly are? (Aside from being arrested maybe, like would it be on our records thus making it harder to get a job and everything that happens, please tell me as I need to know, thanks)

Sorry if my wording here hurt anyone, just don't know how else to word this is all. :(

It depends on where you are.   Laws vary greatly from place to place.   I don't even know what the law is in California exactly and I don't care.  I use the ladies' room exclusively and I've never had a problem.  I'm just angry that my legal name/gender change hearing has to be in July in case I ever do have an issue.

It's scuzzy and illegal to spy on neighboring stalls.  It is not illegal to pee.  Both regardless of the sign on the door.

Now, I should note that you don't have to be doing anything wrong to be told to leave.  Property owners or tenants generally have authority to establish whatever rules they want for any or no reason - but the maximum punishment is being removed from the property.  Using that authority to discriminate against TG people is allowed unless they are specifically protected by anti-discrimination laws. 

Everyone is welcome to call the police, but the worst-case legal scenario is they escort you out and you're not allowed to come back.



Assuming nobody is bending the law, that is.  So let's look at what laws would be involved.

Under common-law tradition, nobody is supposed to "intrude upon seclusion (http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Intrusion_upon_seclusion)" - attempt to gather private information when an ordinary "reasonable person" would expect it to be private and would be offended by the intrusion.  This is a tort, not a crime, which means the person whose privacy was violated may claim monetary reparation.

Additionally, many states make violation of privacy in private places a misdemeanor - Maine comes to my mind: hiding cameras in bathrooms earns you jail time (http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/17-a/title17-asec511.html).

Again, the crime would be violating privacy - observing things a stranger is not supposed to observe - the laws are not intended to enforce gender roles. 




And, finally, there's still the risk of verbal and physical violence used to enforce social norms.  This is illegal, potentially a felony, and the law's on your side for whatever that's worth.

I think the best thing to do for your safety is to search out local TG advocates and hear what the experiences are in your area as far as violence and mis-applied laws.

I've had problems in this department before a few times, but as long as you've got your carry letter with you you should have no problems.  It's a simple letter telling whoever that your a full time transsexual and that you're living this way and it gives you permission to use the ladies room.

I'm currently in a situation at work where I am fighting for the right to use the woman's room, I had been and I do have my carry letter, however I have had a complaint filed against me with HR and now am working on figuring out what the next step will be..

Quote from: Jill F on December 13, 2013, 01:47:31 PM
It depends on where you are.   Laws vary greatly from place to place.   I don't even know what the law is in California exactly and I don't care.  I use the ladies' room exclusively and I've never had a problem.  I'm just angry that my legal name/gender change hearing has to be in July in case I ever do have an issue.

Jill-

I have been worried about this as I wait for my carry letter to show up, so tonight I did some googling to see what I can find out about California law.

It seems that no current law explicitly spells out what is and isn't allowed as far as access to bathrooms; the closest thing that California has to a bathroom law for transgender people is AB 196 - the Gender Protection law. That law doesn't explicitly state who can use what bathroom, but with the other protections it specifies it would seem to follow that we should be allowed access to gender appropriate facilities. I guess that someone is going to have to get into trouble and will have to challenge this issue in count before we will get a clearer ruling.

I know in other states like Texas you can be arrested for simply entering a restroom that doesn't correspond with your birth sex.

So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!! :laugh:

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 12:58:44 AM
So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!! :laugh:

It is indeed, I have KAT arms, better than bear arms any day, plus I can pee wherever I want.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 14, 2013, 01:02:33 AM
It is indeed, I have KAT arms, better than bear arms any day, plus I can pee wherever I want.

Typical another KAT that misses the kitty litter :laugh:

The great outdoors is just one big sandbox.

Quote from: Penny Gurl on December 13, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
I'm currently in a situation at work where I am fighting for the right to use the woman's room, I had been and I do have my carry letter, however I have had a complaint filed against me with HR and now am working on figuring out what the next step will be..

Carry Letters are no Get Out of Jail Free cards. Most laws do not acknowledge nor recognize them.

There may be a few "Bathroom Nuts", as they have been called, that will scream bloody murder murder about whoever they think is a TG. But many laws are vague. As long as you are just going about your business, you're fine. The BR nuts however think you are only there to oogle or rape, at best. I was absolutely shocked both times I attended the Maryland Senate hearings for their TG rights bill.

Laws can vary from the city/municipal level through the county and finally state and federal. In Maryland cities, such as Baltimore, do have a TG rights law. Yet not the county it is in. However, Montgomery county and others do.

I think if a survey was taken (as well as our musings at the Senate hearings) you will find that just about everyone uses the toilet appropiate for their presentation with no problems, especially legal.

In the hospital we use each other's bathrooms if one is occupied or out of order

Quote from: Eva Marie on December 13, 2013, 10:48:34 PMI know in other states like Texas you can be arrested for simply entering a restroom that doesn't correspond with your birth sex.

Such laws are not only difficult to enforce, I suspect they are faulty to the core in regard to legal definition. In order to restrict someone by gender you must define gender. By purist definition gender is defined by your chromosomes. Every city has "women" walking into ladies rooms every day who happened to be born with the AIS condition, which means they superficially look exactly like women but are biologically males. I think a decent lawyer could take any such law apart in short order if it went to court by calling up the issue of definition.

I've always used the restroom that corresponded to the way I was dressed, and haven't had a problem. If there is an issue, you're a woman, simple as that, you can tell that to those who question you.

I don't recall any case ever anywhere of a trans woman facing any type of legal penalty for using a ladies' room. You gotta go somewhere, and I'm certainly not walking into the men's!

I can't speak from personal experience as I am not "out" in my community yet, but I know a number of trans friends  and their overall input to me has been that there will be no issue 9 times out of 10 in any decent neighborhood if you pass even just a little bit. As long as you mind your own business and do what you need to do, nobody will notice/care. In the one time out of ten where an issue arises it can be safer to use the ladies' room if you are presenting as female. Women are generally less likely to get physically confrontational, although they may be more likely to complain to site security or police. Of course, there are never any guarantees in any environment since people are so infinitely variable in their reactions.

Also, more and more venues are starting to have "family" restrooms (for parents with young children) that are single-stall and lockable, so that may be an option as well. You don't _have_ to have children to use one.

I'd suggest finding out what laws apply in your area, if any. Then just use your best judgement. Remember, you have a human right to pee _somewhere_.

Good luck.

In most jurisdictions there is no law that governs what restroom trans* people must use.  For that matter, in most jurisdictions there is no law requiring men to use the men's room or women to use the ladies room.

The lack of guidance on restroom use becomes a problem when applying anti-discrimination laws.  For example, does an employer discriminate on the basis of gender identity by requiring his transwoman employee to use the men's room?  In this forum, the answer is probably obviously yes.  But to a lot of people out there, that's not so clear.

A minority of jurisdictions (D.C. is an example) have regulations that spell this out and require that trans* people be allowed to use the restroom matching their gender identities.

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2013, 12:58:44 AM
So you have the right to bear arms but not to pee!

While Aussies can pee but not bear arms!

The world is an odd place!! :laugh:

Yes, transgender people can definitely pack heat, including, in some states concealed weapons. VERY strange world.

--Jay

If you are in a mall, look for the family restrooms.  Or gender neutral restrooms.  That way you don't have to worry.

And it does depend on where you live.

Well once again, UK maybe a completely different world on this one, there again perhaps not that much. Well I've found some of the posts on this thread useful so far. One thing I do know is as I have just pointed out in another thread on bra's, is that I get confidence when I'm out by always showing cleavage. Using the Gents as we British call it just freaks out the guys within. Women seem to be much more tolerant and understanding so I have never had any problems.

One tip if your a UK trans person, that just got passed on to me by my health clinic, is to go to your tourist information who will sell you a key for the disabled toilet, which are unisex (UK has a system where disabled loos all have a standard lock). They ask for proof of disability, I found when I went in for mine, that the explanation that I was transgender, backed up by my physical appearance and the effect on the guys when I used the the male room, was enough. The lady just ran it passed her manager and I got my key.   

I went to my church a few weeks ago, and because I was dressed, I felt it was best to use the ladies room instead of the men's room. When I went, it was empty, so I quickly went into a stall to do my business. I heard a door open and someone called out my name and told me that I shouldn't be in there. A few days later, my pastor called me to reprimand me about what had happened.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 15, 2013, 01:37:17 PM
I don't recall any case ever anywhere of a trans woman facing any type of legal penalty for using a ladies' room. You gotta go somewhere, and I'm certainly not walking into the men's!

My point exactly! I often think of how strange it would look if I walked into the men's room wearing a nice dress with heels and some guys are coming out. I'm sure they'd stop me and give me directions to the ladies room, and I'm sure that they'd be surprised if I turned around and told them that it's againstthe law for me to use the ladies room because genetically I'm a male.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 18, 2013, 03:14:50 PM
My point exactly! I often think of how strange it would look if I walked into the men's room wearing a nice dress with heels and some guys are coming out. I'm sure they'd stop me and give me directions to the ladies room, and I'm sure that they'd be surprised if I turned around and told them that it's againstthe law for me to use the ladies room because genetically I'm a male.

I was once in a bookstore with a male friend of mine.  We both had to use the bathroom, and he asked a salesperson where they were.  She took us through a hallway to the mens room, and then turned to me, pointed a bit further down the hallway and said "your bathroom is right around the corner".

I still worry about using public restrooms with other people, but I'm *slowly* getting used to the idea.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 18, 2013, 03:00:46 PM
I went to my church a few weeks ago, and because I was dressed, I felt it was best to use the ladies room instead of the men's room. When I went, it was empty, so I quickly went into a stall to do my business. I heard a door open and soemoen called out my name and told me that I shouldn't be in there. A few days later, my pastor called me to reprimend me about what had happened.

You're not asking for advice, so I feel funny giving it, but I really feel moved to pipe in.

You are a woman.

The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

It doesn't matter whether it is empty or whether the other stalls are all occupied. When you present as a female, you ARE a female. Not a trans woman, not a part-time woman, not a woman-on-the-outside-something-else-on-the-inside. You are a woman, full stop.

Your pastor needs to have that explained to him. I know it's threatening to do that. Maybe a local LGBT organization can be enlisted to help, or maybe you can point him to literature on the internet.

Your pastor is neither your boss nor your parent. He has no right to "reprimand" you. You are an adult. You do not reprimand an adult. You speak respectfully to her about your preferences and then you listen to what she has to say.

You have a right to speak back to him. You have a right to express the humiliation of being forced to use a restroom that doesn't match your identity.

To me, part of my transition has been the development of the understanding that I am a woman through and through and will be for the rest of my life, and that other people simply don't have a right to define my identity.

I hope this helps. If it's wrong for you, please ignore it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 06:18:32 AM
You're not asking for advice, so I feel funny giving it, but I really feel moved to pipe in.

You are a woman.

The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

It doesn't matter whether it is empty or whether the other stalls are all occupied. When you present as a female, you ARE a female. Not a trans woman, not a part-time woman, not a woman-on-the-outside-something-else-on-the-inside. You are a woman, full stop.

Your pastor needs to have that explained to him. I know it's threatening to do that. Maybe a local LGBT organization can be enlisted to help, or maybe you can point him to literature on the internet.

Your pastor is neither your boss nor your parent. He has no right to "reprimand" you. You are an adult. You do not reprimand an adult. You speak respectfully to her about your preferences and then you listen to what she has to say.

You have a right to speak back to him. You have a right to express the humiliation of being forced to use a restroom that doesn't match your identity.

To me, part of my transition has been the development of the understanding that I am a woman through and through and will be for the rest of my life, and that other people simply don't have a right to define my identity.

I hope this helps. If it's wrong for you, please ignore it.

Suzi, what you have said here has been very helpful, and I couldn't put it aside.

Thank you for treating me as a woman. My parents are still annoyed at the fact that I used the ladies room and that I went to church dressed. I tried to explain to them that since I was going to be going full time, I was just testing the water and decided to go to church as a woman. When I got there I was treated like a new member, but I found out later that everyone knew who I was. My mom told me that even with all the makeup on they'll still know me, because I've been going to that church for such a long time. Again I told my mom that that wasn't my intention of fooling anyone. My main intention was to go there as a woman, and if anyone asked, I would have explained that I am a transsexual, but more over I am a woman.

Now you had said: The ladies' room is the appropriate room for you, especially when you are presenting female (whatever that means to you).

As seen in my avatar, I present myself as a woman. To complete strangers I am more passable than I am to peole that I've known for years as my male self. I've worked for my parents for 18 years in their home improvement company. They will not allow me to work for them as a woman because they're afraid of what their customers may think. Back ten years ago after Huurricane Charley came through I bought four appointment books with 500 pages. We easily filled the books in a few days. That's 2000 pages and they were all of our old customrs. If I were to go and do a job for any one of the customers these days, I'd simply explain the changes to them and I'm sure that they'd understand.

Y'know Suzie, that's an excellent idea of approaching my pastor about the LGBT, not that I expect him to stand there with open arms  welcoming me back once he has a better understanding of it, because the damage has already been done.

My mom was just telling me that she saw her therapist yesterday and she agrees with her that I shouldn't be 'parading' around town dressed as a woman. I've tried to tell her that I'm not parading around, but I'd just be living out my days as a woman, but she doesn't want to accept that. So her tharpist suggested that I should see a psychiatrist and talk with him, which I'll be doing next month. Both of them are trying to get me to stop. They're under the impression that I'm a cross-dresser more than a transsexual, just because I never exhibited any feminine desires until I was 15, and my mom believes that it was caused because of the damage done to the frontal lobe of my brain. But moreover her therapist was surprised that after I gave her my coming out letter that she didn't throw me out of her house.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 08:57:10 AM
They're under the impression that I'm a cross-dresser more than a transsexual, just because I never exhibited any feminine desires until I was 15, and my mom believes that it was caused because of the damage done to the frontal lobe of my brain.

Neither your mother, nor her therapist are qualified or have been called upon to diagnose you. Even if they were, exhibiting no feminine desires until your teen years means nothing. I had no desire to put on a woman's garment ever, and did so for the first time last year at age 51.

What your mother calls "parading", is really just being yourself. She needs to understand that. After all, one could say that she parades in women's clothes wherever she goes, right? And that is what you are going to look like all the time.

I hope this all is supportive. It's so hard to believe in what you're doing when everyone around you is allowing their feelings and prejudices to distort perceptions and facts.

Just a guess but it's possible that her therapist isn't literally saying these things to her.  Some people tend to think "I understand why that might upset you" to mean "I agree with you completely"

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 10:35:05 AM
Neither your mother, nor her therapist are qualified or have been called upon to diagnose you. Even if they were, exhibiting no feminine desires until your teen years means nothing. I had no desire to put on a woman's garment ever, and did so for the first time last year at age 51.

What your mother calls "parading", is really just being yourself. She needs to understand that. After all, one could say that she parades in women's clothes wherever she goes, right? And that is what you are going to look like all the time.

I hope this all is supportive. It's so hard to believe in what you're doing when everyone around you is allowing their feelings and prejudices to distort perceptions and facts.

I couldn't believe it either! It's simply a lot of heresay from my mom's side. And like you said Suzi, her therapist can't diagnose me.

I was just reading your post that you didn't start until you were 51, but my mom is only concerned with me and she doesn't want to hear or read about anyone else. It really shows how close minded she is towards me. Unfortunately she just found out from my dad's cardiologist yesterday that he's only  giving him 2 years to live, so she's telling me that I should be more respectful and concerned about my dad's health and wellfare than about me and the problems that I've been facing for the last 30 years.

Thanks for explaining to me what my mom has been throwing at me about 'parading." Next time she does that I'll just throw it back at her. Right now she's moved up a step and has been telling me that if I move out I'll be walking the streets as a woman, and I take that to be a street walker, which as y'all know is a prostitute, which I'm not.  ;D But I do plan on moving out by next month. Currently looking for a place to live, so that I can at least start living and enjoying my female life.

All these problems have really put me into a depressed mood and I really need to get away from it all.

I just got back from the local police station. I was PMing Anna about this last night, and an officer told me that I cannot go into any ladies room to use it until I've had SRS done and had my gender changed on my license, and I can be arrested if I'm found in there. So I will have to use the men's room until I get my SRS done.  

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 19, 2013, 10:38:08 AM
Just a guess but it's possible that her therapist isn't literally saying these things to her.  Some people tend to think "I understand why that might upset you" to mean "I agree with you completely"

It's possible. But my mom ussually tells me things that are truthful. At least I'll be seeing my therapist before I have to see the psychiatrist. :D

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
I was PMing Anna about this last night, and an officer told me that I cannot go into any ladies room to use it until I've had SRS done and had my gender changed on my license, and I can be arrested if I'm found in there.

Reading this made my soul weep.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 19, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
Reading this made my soul weep.

I'm a very particular woman and I do like to get things from the horse's mouth and that's what the law is here in the state of Florida is. And I do like to abide by the law.

The law is murky and based on location. I'm fairly sure it was illegal for me to use the ladies room in Missouri prior to my legal gender change. That said I also had consulted my doctors and lawyer and carried a doctors note. Nothing ever came of it( yes I used the womens restroom despite the legality) I got my legal gender change taken of. It would be a serious personal failing if my genitals to be discerned or seen preop.

Alright, from what I've read in short it depends on whether it's legal or not based on where you live. (Music, could you PM me please, want to ask you something?)  I advise everyone to take what they will from this though disclaimer here, I'm not saying break the law, only giving some insight and so on here.

About the law, it's there to protect the people and to help the people, NOT to be a dictator that tells us what to do when it doesn't involve protecting/helping people and for trans people it's in OUR best interests and to better protect us to let us use the bathroom that we say say/feel/present as. So I take issue with ANY LAW that isn't there for helping/protecting the people and is there to dictate what we can and cannot do and doesn't help/protect us/people but instead hurts and can even GET us/people killed such as in some places it not being legal to use the bathroom for the gender we are/feel/present etc. As for me, I will NOT let the law tell me what bathroom I can and cannot use! I am a woman and I have every RIGHT to use the woman's bathroom and I shouldn't have to be forced to use the men's bathroom because of some stupid dictatorship law that's been twisted to become what it is. (Dictatorship law)

I say dictatorship and twisted because if I'm not mistaken the law (If there is one) was put there to protect woman as well as men (Mostly women I'd imagine though) from being raped/harassed etc. in the bathroom but when it comes to trans people this law should have ABSOLUTLY no effect/barring on us whatsoever! When it does THAT'S WHEN it becomes dictatorship law and puts us in danger etc. etc. etc. Plus look at Japan, if I'm not mistaken they have mixed bathrooms and this INCLUDES mixed hot springs where in those hot springs people even go bare naked, yes in a mixed hot spring and did I mention Japan has one of the world's lowest rape rates?

Any who, I recently went shopping and was there for hrs, out in my female clothing being myself and I had to use the bathroom and for the first time, in a public bathroom with more than 1 stall, I used the woman's bathroom. :) That and the cashiers called me a her. :) That was one of the best days of my whole life. :) Admittedly though, only one woman saw me when she was going out of the bathroom and while I was in there some girls (Kids) came in put I left before they came out. I did try and go a second time but it was closed for cleaning. :( No idea if that is normal or not... :/ I can only hope it gets easier for me to use the woman's bathroom as it was hard on me and made me nervous or something and also that I never have any problems using the woman's bathroom...

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
I'm a very particular woman and I do like to get things from the horse's mouth and that's what the law is here in the state of Florida is. And I do like to abide by the law.

Looking for a room to rent in the Fort Myers, Florida area. PM me if interested.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. :( (Bathroom/law incident) If I may ask, you said you were at the police station, how'd you get there? Arrested or taken there or something else? It's your choice but I'd like to her what happened to you, hopefully nothing got put on your records?

Sorry to hear about your Dad. :( Though I want to point something out here. I think it's VERY wrong and inconsiderate to ask someone to not be themselves just because someone else isn't in the best of health. (This is of course depends on the circumstances and who the person is) In this case I don't know what your Dad is going through (Or those around him) but I DO KNOW that from your side it's not right of your mom and isn't very considerate of her to ask you to lie and not be yourself and put your life in more danger due to you not being yourself and such. Plus it's a parent's job to protect their children, even after they're grown up and also if it were me, the parent I'd WANT to know if my child was trans or not. I'd want to know ANYTHING they're going through so I can do my best to be there for them, maybe your Dad is the same way? Either way, you'll have to decide what to do, you know not just in your heart but your mind what's the best thing to do. Best of luck! P.S. Sorry if what I said about your mom insulted you, I just don't think she's listening to reason/logic here and isn't fully considering your own feelings as you've said.

Quote from: Shana-chan on December 19, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
I'm so sorry that happened to you. :( (Bathroom/law incident) If I may ask, you said you were at the police station, how'd you get there? Arrested or taken there or something else? It's your choice but I'd like to her what happened to you, hopefully nothing got put on your records?

Sorry to hear about your Dad. :( Though I want to point something out here. I think it's VERY wrong and inconsiderate to ask someone to not be themselves just because someone else isn't in the best of health. (This is of course depends on the circumstances and who the person is) In this case I don't know what your Dad is going through (Or those around him) but I DO KNOW that from your side it's not right of your mom and isn't very considerate of her to ask you to lie and not be yourself and put your life in more danger due to you not being yourself and such. Plus it's a parent's job to protect their children, even after they're grown up and also if it were me, the parent I'd WANT to know if my child was trans or not. I'd want to know ANYTHING they're going through so I can do my best to be there for them, maybe your Dad is the same way? Either way, you'll have to decide what to do, you know not just in your heart but your mind what's the best thing to do. Best of luck! P.S. Sorry if what I said about your mom insulted you, I just don't think she's listening to reason/logic here and isn't fully considering your own feelings as you've said.

Thanks for your concern Shana Chan, but I went willingly into the police station and spoke with the officer about the situation.

Thanks for your concern about my dad as well. He's 78 years old, and my mom tends to get over stressed about things that she shouldn't. But you are right that it is inconsiderate of her to be asking me to put my life on hold so that she can tend to my dad, who right now is fairly healthy. The cardiolgist just said that he's giving him 2 years. He could surprise us all and live another 4 years. But he said that it's the business that he's involved in that's keping him alive. So if he becomes a couch potatoe, he's a dead man. That's why I've decided that I've gotta move and start living my life the best way I can . . . full time as a woman. Fortunately, I was talking with someone last night , and I may have found soemone that I can live with.  :)

But here's something that really floored me. My mom told me that I should consider it a privilage that she's allowing me to dress in my room, because she doesn't understand why I have to go out into the public dressed as a woman and then she tells me that she doesn't want me abusing this privilage and think that I can go travelling outside to the areas that she has deemed all right for me to go to. I think she's forgotten how old I am, and that she should treat me as an adult and not like an 8 year old.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 20, 2013, 12:58:32 AM
My mom told me that I should consider it a privilage that she's allowing me to dress in my room, because she doesn't understand why I have to go out into the public dressed as a woman and then she tells me that she doesn't wnat me abusing this privilage and think that I can go travelling outside to the areas that she has deemed all right for me to go to.

She's got that wrong. The privilege is hers.

It is a privilege for her to live with a daughter who is intelligent, courageous, and sensitive. That privilege will disappear if she drives you away by failing to show compassion or appreciation.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 19, 2013, 05:23:43 PM
Nothing ever came of it( yes I used the womens restroom despite the legality)

Me also. Not sure what it means to have a gender "legally changed" since every government agency here seems to have a different view. My driver's license says female, but my social security records still say male. (Can't pry the necessary letter out of my doctor).

But I use the ladies' wherever I go. I do that because I'm living full time as a woman. I'm not going into the men's. It's either the ladies' or peeing on the floor.

Some deep down angry part of me welcomes an arrest or hassle of some kind as a way to educate the public why laws excluding us from the correct bathrooms is inhuman, the way courageous men and women challenged racial segregation laws.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 20, 2013, 06:42:56 AM
She's got that wrong. The privilege is hers.

It is a privilege for her to live with a daughter who is intelligent, courageous, and sensitive. That privilege will disappear if she drives you away by failing to show compassion or appreciation.

Me also. Not sure what it means to have a gender "legally changed" since every government agency here seems to have a different view. My driver's license says female, but my social security records still say male. (Can't pry the necessary letter out of my doctor).

But I use the ladies' wherever I go. I do that because I'm living full time as a woman. I'm not going into the men's. It's either the ladies' or peeing on the floor.

Some deep down angry part of me welcomes an arrest or hassle of some kind as a way to educate the public why laws excluding us from the correct bathrooms is inhuman, the way courageous men and women challenged racial segregation laws.

Thank you Suzi for your kind and heart felt words. I just wish my mom could see it that way Right now she's refusing to read anything that I send her and she's even threatened to change her e-mail address on me just to avoid getting anymore things from me. She doesn't like to be educated by a person who is actually going through something.

That's strange that you've got your driver's license gender marker changed but your doctor won't give you the necessary papers so that you can change your social security. I'm sure that you've changed your name on your social security card and that you have also had a new birth certificate and passport issued.

But as long as you're passable and have had no problems with using the women's washroom, then I personally wouldn't worry about it. Nice thing about being on hormones for a while is that it accentuates the female features.  :)

Last night I was at a shopping mall and had to use the restroom. Remembering the law, I went into the men's room, did my business and just before I left I stopped to touch up my lipstick. While I was there, there was a custodian standing behind me looking strangley at me. I didn't pay him no mind as I finished what I was doing and left. It was kind of funny though.  :laugh:

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 21, 2013, 05:11:38 AMLast night I was at a shopping mall and had to use the restroom. Remembering the law, I went into the men's room, did my business and just before I left I stopped to touch up my lipstick. While I was there, there was a custodian standing behind me looking strangley at me. I didn't pay him no mind as I finished what I was doing and left. It was kind of funny though.  :laugh:

I think you'll be fine where no one you know is, that "law" is really pretty stupid, and no one is going to ask you to show them your genitals to enter a restroom.
Do what you feel is right.

Quote from: Willow on December 22, 2013, 12:44:49 AM
I think you'll be fine where no one you know is, that "law" is really pretty stupid, and no one is going to ask you to show them your genitals to enter a restroom.
Do what you feel is right.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Willow. I know that the law is pretty stupid, but I have to obey it to avoid getting arrested. But if I run into a problm with someone trying to be an idiot and cause any problems, I'll simply get out my driver's license and I'll show them. No need to show them my genitals for permission to use a washroom. I plan on having my picture changed soon.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 22, 2013, 02:21:18 AMThanks for the vote of confidence Willow. I know that the law is pretty stupid, but I have to obey it to avoid getting arrested. But if I run into a problm with someone trying to be an idiot and cause any problems, I'll simply get out my driver's license and I'll show them. No need to show them my genitals for permission to use a washroom. I plan on having my picture changed soon.

I meant that as more of an issue of using the women't restroom while dressed. No one sane will ask to see your genitals to admit you into the restroom. Use whatever restroom you're dressed as. Screw that pathetic excuse for a law.

Quote from: Willow on December 22, 2013, 02:36:37 AM
I meant that as more of an issue of using the women't restroom while dressed. No one sane will ask to see your genitals to admit you into the restroom. Use whatever restroom you're dressed as. Screw that pathetic excuse for a law.

I know what you meant Willow. I was just being sarcastic. But honestly, if I were stopped and asked, I'd simply get out my driver's license and show them that I'm a genetic male. End of story. But as said I have to obey the Florida law, and I have to use the correct restroom until I've had SRS and my gender label has been changed. Unfortunately even after I get my citizenship, I still have to obey the law and keep clean, or I could be deported back to Canada.  :(

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 22, 2013, 06:49:59 AM
I know what you meant Willow. I was just being sarcastic. But honestly, if I were stopped and asked, I'd simply get out my driver's license and show them that I'm a genetic male. End of story. But as said I have to obey the Florida law, and I have to use the correct restroom until I've had SRS and my gender label has been changed. Unfortunately even after I get my citizenship, I still have to obey the law and keep clean, or I could be deported back to Canada.  :(

One might suggest consulting someone who is knowledgeable about Florida law as it applies to trans* people.  A random policeman is not such a person. 

I did a very fast, quick and dirty search on Florida state law and found no such requirement as you describe.  I suspect it does not exist.  In fact I'd be very surprised if it did. 

On the other hand, trans* people have been arrested for using the restroom no matter which one they use.  Just because they end up unable to charge you with anything does not help to avoid arrest by a bigoted cop. 

Now that I said that, I have to add the DISCLAIMER that although I am a lawyer, I am not your lawyer.  I am also licensed in Maryland and DC only, not Florida.  And if you want advice on your situation, you should consult counsel other than me.  I did truly do just a quick, nonexhaustive  search.  If you want a for sure answer, consult someone to figure it out for certain. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 25, 2013, 09:57:46 AM
One might suggest consulting someone who is knowledgeable about Florida law as it applies to trans* people.  A random policeman is not such a person. 

I did a very fast, quick and dirty search on Florida state law and found no such requirement as you describe.  I suspect it does not exist.  In fact I'd be very surprised if it did. 

On the other hand, trans* people have been arrested for using the restroom no matter which one they use.  Just because they end up unable to charge you with anything does not help to avoid arrest by a bigoted cop. 

Now that I said that, I have to add the DISCLAIMER that although I am a lawyer, I am not your lawyer.  I am also licensed in Maryland and DC only, not Florida.  And if you want advice on your situation, you should consult counsel other than me.  I did truly do just a quick, nonexhaustive  search.  If you want a for sure answer, consult someone to figure it out for certain.

Appreciate your help Phoenix. But as said that was what a police officer told me. Now if I go into a woman's restroom and some woman feels uncomfortable with me, she does have the right to complain and if the police do get involved, what recourse would I have? Now that's one scenerio. I will do an extensive search on the subject and see what I come up with for my own knowledge, and I also have a friend who is a lawyer as well and I'm sure that he can easily steer me in the right direction of the Florida law.

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 25, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Appreciate your help Phoenix. But as said that was what a police officer told me. Now if I go into a woman's restroom and some woman feels uncomfortable with me, she does have the right to complain and if the police do get involved, what recourse would I have? Now that's one scenerio. I will do an extensive search on the subject and see what I come up with for my own knowledge, and I also have a friend who is a lawyer as well and I'm sure that he can easily steer me in the right direction of the Florida law.

My guess would be that the officer you spoke to was coming from his own biases and prejudices about how he thinks people ought go rather than a real understanding of the law.  Now, having said that, one question that comes to mind is whether there is any express prohibition on using opposite sex restrooms in a local county or municipal ordinance.  That's one of the things I did not look at at all. 

As far as unlawful arrests go, I guess under the right circumstances you could bring a civil rights claim.  But those can be pretty hard to bring successfully.

The other thing to beware of is that trans* people have gotten arrested regardless of which restroom they use.  Transwomen who use the ladies room have been arrested.  So have transwomen who use the men's room.  Disorderly conduct seems to be the popular charge.  If the police were called, I'd recommend contacting Lambda Legal, the Transgender Legal Defense Fund, or other legal organizations that are accustomed to helping trans* people. 

The good news is that arrests or any sort are pretty rare.  The problems people have are usually harassment by other patrons or the employees of a business and do not involve arrests or criminal charges.  Even if the police were called, the issue can usually be worked out without a problem.  And I suspect that the overwhelming majority of times trans* people use restrooms, they have no issues at all. 

But problems do happen.  So avoidance of problems is the best tactic.  And one way to do that is to use the restroom that best matches how people seem to be perceiving you.  If they keep calling you ma'am, use the ladies room.  Using the men's room  when perceived as a woman is more likely to create situations because it will seem weird and out of place.

Anyway, that's my two cents for what it's worth.  Just trying to apply common sense to a scenario where common sense admittedly doesn't always work out the way it should.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 25, 2013, 11:40:35 PM
My guess would be that the officer you spoke to was coming from his own biases and prejudices about how he thinks people ought go rather than a real understanding of the law.  Now, having said that, one question that comes to mind is whether there is any express prohibition on using opposite sex restrooms in a local county or municipal ordinance.  That's one of the things I did not look at at all. 

As far as unlawful arrests go, I guess under the right circumstances you could bring a civil rights claim.  But those can be pretty hard to bring successfully.

The other thing to beware of is that trans* people have gotten arrested regardless of which restroom they use.  Transwomen who use the ladies room have been arrested.  So have transwomen who use the men's room.  Disorderly conduct seems to be the popular charge.  If the police were called, I'd recommend contacting Lambda Legal, the Transgender Legal Defense Fund, or other legal organizations that are accustomed to helping trans* people. 

The good news is that arrests or any sort are pretty rare.  The problems people have are usually harassment by other patrons or the employees of a business and do not involve arrests or criminal charges.  Even if the police were called, the issue can usually be worked out without a problem.  And I suspect that the overwhelming majority of times trans* people use restrooms, they have no issues at all. 

But problems do happen.  So avoidance of problems is the best tactic.  And one way to do that is to use the restroom that best matches how people seem to be perceiving you.  If they keep calling you ma'am, use the ladies room.  Using the men's room  when perceived as a woman is more likely to create situations because it will seem weird and out of place.

Anyway, that's my two cents for what it's worth.  Just trying to apply common sense to a scenario where common sense admittedly doesn't always work out the way it should.

Thanks for your imput Phoenix. One thing that my mom had told me {and this could have been just a scare tactic} was that when I had used  the ladies room at my church, they could have called security, but the only thing that got me out of that mess was that some of the people there ad recognized me and let it slide.  A few years ago, when I was at a Flea Market, I had to use the restroom. Now being dressed, naturally I went into the ladies room. It was empty, so I quickly went in and did my business. When leaving I was approached by one of the owners and he asked if I had used the ladies room, and I told him that I had, and then he just let me go, because like you said, the issue can usually be worked out without a problem.

Quote from: Shana-chan on December 13, 2013, 01:39:57 PM
My Dad mentioned to me he didn't know if it was legal for people to use the bathroom that's opposite of their body. (I'm transgender, MtF) And soon I will be going shopping for hrs. That means I'll have to use the women's bathroom more than likely. So my question here is, is it legal or not for us trans people to use the bathroom that's for the gender that's opposite of our body? If it's not legal, what will happen if we do use the bathroom that for the gender we truly are? (Aside from being arrested maybe, like would it be on our records thus making it harder to get a job and everything that happens, please tell me as I need to know, thanks)

Sorry if my wording here hurt anyone, just don't know how else to word this is all. :(

All my life I've encountered problems with using the "men's room" or "men's changes" in the gym, where I've been a member for over twenty-four months. I've been yelled more times than I have digits, occasionally man-handled and pulled out by other people, warned by people I've entered the wrong one and a few weeks ago here in Manchester (UK) I was escorted out of the men's toilet by the Arndale Center food courts lavatories by one of their security guard!!  And you're asking is it legal. Well darling, I'm born intersex and depending on who you ask, most seems to mis-gender me even though legally I'm still male.

I'm really sorry to hear about all the problems you've been having. I guess the only recourse you can take is to keep your driver's license close by so that if you do run into another situation you can quickly show them that you are a male and stop the confusion. I just find it hard to believe that because of the way society has become that I have to spend $48,000 to have an operation that I don't really feel like having in order to use the right restroom to match my gender preference. Go figure???

Well folks if six year old Coy Mathis can stand up for herself and walk into a girls bathroom we might just be shown the way by a child! www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.html

I am with Suzi and others on this one.  while respecting anyones right to go where they will, I am going to continue in the ladies room.  I am out FT and staying that way.  I am enough of a woman to go where I want and expect to not be hassled.  This is a civil rights, health and safety issue to me

I'm not looking for affirmation from the masses about my gender or waiting for anyone's permission.  We have a biological need to go, and a reasonable expectation to go safely and go privately. 

This is how it has been for me:

When I was pre-HRT, I had constant instances of being questioned and getting weird looks when I went into the men's room.

After I had been on HRT for about 18 months. There were many times when I would be walking back to the public restrooms and I had other women saying to me: "Honey, that is the wrong restroom" when I would turn towards the men's room. From that point on, I began using the women's room and I've had only one time when I was questioned in the last 5 years. It was some 16 year old brat at Dairy Queen. She was at the table with 3 other girls and I heard her say something about "a guy going into the men's room." But I also heard one of her friends tell her to shut up and that "you don't know if that's some butch chick or not." :D I just kept going but I couldn't help but laugh on the inside. I certainly don't look butch, though. :D

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 26, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
I'm really sorry to hear about all the problems you've been having. I guess the only recourse you can take is to keep your driver's license close by so that if you do run into another situation you can quickly show them that you are a male and stop the confusion. I just find it hard to believe that because of the way society has become that I have to spend $48,000 to have an operation that I don't really feel like having in order to use the right restroom to match my gender preference. Go figure???

Thanks for understanding Gina.. I've given up trying to figure out how society judge people, since a teen I've been taking my chances and use whichever restroom I should use "theoretically" use. For the time i've used the ladies, I've never encounter any issues, yet. After a great many years I finally discovered why, however those answers came with much emotional pains cause I'd previously dreamt of having children of my own, or atleast bank sperm. Now adoption is the only path as it turns out I'm XXY with an unknown level of AIS, I say "unknown" as they're still doing tests. My last T count is 0.2 with O ~179-198.   

Quote from: Gina Taylor on December 26, 2013, 03:14:33 AM
Thanks for your imput Phoenix. One thing that my mom had told me {and this could have been just a scare tactic} was that when I had used  the ladies room at my church, they could have called security, but the only thing that got me out of that mess was that some of the people there ad recognized me and let it slide.  A few years ago, when I was at a Flea Market, I had to use the restroom. Now being dressed, naturally I went into the ladies room. It was empty, so I quickly went in and did my business. When leaving I was approached by one of the owners and he asked if I had used the ladies room, and I told him that I had, and then he just let me go, because like you said, the issue can usually be worked out without a problem.

One thing about it is that just because a trans* person can use a particular restroom does not mean others are going to be nice about it.  But your stories are good examples of how these things can usually be okay without a big fuss. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 27, 2013, 01:01:34 AM
One thing about it is that just because a trans* person can use a particular restroom does not mean others are going to be nice about it.  But your stories are good examples of how these things can usually be okay without a big fuss. :)

Thank you.  :)

I guess I've just been lucky. The ironic thing that happened after I left the Flea Market was that that manager got reprimened for being a little loud right there at the front entrance with his questions, so I felt somewhat justfied.  :) The best way to have handled the situation was to have taken me soempalec private.