Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Although, I detest most competitive sports, in favor of more communal and nurturing activities, I am going to use a sports idiom for the sake of expediency. The transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others. The transgender community must be welcomed at the table of equality to bargain for it fare share of power sharing and claims to societal resources. To achieve this takes monumental and deliberate effort. The most important aspect of this change is how people think about transgender individuals. Individual members of our community must be taken seriously and regarded with due and equal respect, like all should receive in a functional and balanced community that does not just tolerate, but truly values diversity for the contribution all are capable of making to society.

How are we to achieve this is the central question. I will start my remarks by quoting another contributor to this forum that has made, in my opinion, one of the most important contributions to this site I have read. Please, do not misinterpret my intentions regarding this quote. I am praising, not flaming this individual for her courage and insight. In fact, I have had to struggle with my own issues in regards to her point, but the issue is key to our progress to total societal acceptance.


   Why Do I Feel Uncomfortable When I See a Very "Unpassable" Transwomen
« on: June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM »   
________________________________________
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.


Most would expect to hear a response to the question of societal acceptance of transgender individuals; that it must start with self acceptance. I am not going to make this trite, shallow, and over used reply to this very serious question that can involve issues of life and death of members of our community. Equality must be extended to all by all, whom truly value and love humanity in all of its exquisite manifestations of beauty.  If we as transgender people are having difficulty in acceptance of ourselves and other transgender individuals based on our appearance, it is a result of how the larger society makes transgender individual feel about ourselves and people like them.

There is no denying the fact, that since the beginning of time, beauty has not just been valued by society, but has also been very much a standard and indicator of social, cultural and financial success. Unfortunately, the opposite of beauty, particularly feminine beauty, has historically been socially shunned and harshly treated by society. To value physical beauty is an integral aspect of the human condition. The standards of beauty are as old as humanity itself, and how people respond to it, is as equally ancient. Can this be changed so to allow those that do not meet these strict social standards of beauty to be totally and equally enfranchised by society? I think so.... but not easily. There have been many, throughout history that were not beautiful, but found a way to be fully loved and embraced by society. This is not just an issue of passing or stealth as a transgender person, the issue of personal beauty goes well beyond this. But the issue of not passing as a transsexual makes you an open and conspicuous target for societal scrutiny.

Given, the present state of bigotry, hatred, prejudges that exists in society towards transsexual people, the issue of passing can very easily be a serious issue of life and death, and absolutely must be taken very seriously by all within the community and by those attempting to provide aid and comfort to members of the community. Nothing said or done, by anyone, within or outside the community should compromise this issue. This issue is, if one seeks to understand fully the transsexual community, the place one needs to begin there search for understanding about transsexualism. This is the starting place that, like no other issue, defines success.

What can be done beyond passing in seeking complete societal enfranchisement? First we must not be complacent! We must ask ourselves and others the hard questions. These questions must be addressed to all, especially those within our community and to those well intended individuals that have attempted to help the transgender community. These questions should be asked, not in the spirit of confrontation, but in the spirit cooperative enquiry into the inadequacies of past approaches to the problems we face as a community, and how to make them more affective in gaining equality within the larger society. Humility and shared effort are absolutely bedrock to achieving progress.

Godiva

*sigh* if this is a revival of that locked topic, this will follow suit rather quickly i fear.
my 2p: It is going to be a LONG LONG LONG time before society can see a 'man in a dress' and be broad minded enough to accept them as a woman. For now, society atleast in the western world works on a gender binary to a large extent. men, and women. Not passing is no reason to stop trying, if you do, you will simply be miserable. Passing is a wonderful feeling. your finally who you are. inside and outside are congruent. Im currently living semi stealth, only my two housemates, and some friends i already have know, but thats it, they know about something thats the past. I came out to my male housemate the other day after living with him a week, and its an od experiece telling someone you were once male externally, very different to saying your really a girl inside... and to me, very embaracing, and thats why passing is important to me, yeah its about me, but i do the external things for society, i could not transition and feel fine inside, knowing im a girl, but i want to be treated as one, thus i put the effort in, and contry to a lot of trans folk, i only started 'dressing' in female clothes a few months post hrt. I only started wearing a bra since i needed it... yeah, im a bit odd, but i dont care, im a normal girl that fits into society nicely, i identify as female, not a transexual female, ive transitioned yes, but from female inside and male outside to female everywhere, isnt that the point? Why must there a be a transgender community to be accepted? or a gay community? or a black community? surely society is what we want? surely a world where nobody cares what colour, sexuality or gender plays in a person, aside from who they are... he transgender community only serves to fuel the segregation and social grouping of society.

QuoteThe transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others.

We can demand until we are blue in the face.
That doesn't mean that it will be granted.

Godiva,

Thanks for a truly insightful post. I agree that these issues you bring up are important. Transphobia is deeply entrenched in our society, and we need to look at and confront our own internalized phobias to transcend them and to create a world where it will be safe for all of us to live as whatever gender we are.

zythyra

Quote from: Jessica on July 05, 2007, 12:32:47 PM

QuoteThe transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others.

We can demand until we are blue in the face.
That doesn't mean that it will be granted.

i agree, the more we 'demand' the less people are likely to give us anything we ask... behaving like spoilt children will just get us treated like them.

Quote from: GodivaUnfortunately, the opposite of beauty, particularly feminine beauty, has historically been socially shunned and harshly treated by society. To value physical beauty is an integral aspect of the human condition. The standards of beauty are as old as humanity itself, and how people respond to it, is as equally ancient. Can this be changed so to allow those that do not meet these strict social standards of beauty to be totally and equally enfranchised by society? I think so.... but not easily. There have been many, throughout history that were not beautiful, but found a way to be fully loved and embraced by society. This is not just an issue of passing or stealth as a transgender person, the issue of personal beauty goes well beyond this. But the issue of not passing as a transsexual makes you an open and conspicuous target for societal scrutiny.

First I agree with you on much of the post, especially about bigotry and hatred. But the reasons some of us are shunned and treated harshly has little to do with any lack of beauty. If that was so, genetic woman lacking beauty would be shunned and treated harshly too. Now it is true that some of the opposite gender may, to a small extent, shun one lacking in beauty, but not for the reasons you state.

More often than not, we are treated harshly because of our own attitudes and fears. I've known some, who had told their story and come out at work. Said that they were female, and happier with life as female, then went around with a long face and snarled at everyone. That doesn't make living their new life sound very convincing.

When I transitioned on the job my story was similar to this person's, except that I actually went around happy and cheerful, and if someone didn't accept me, I smiled and moved on. Eventually a friend who had known me for over 20 years said, "I can tell that this is the real you." It made me very happy of course, but I knew without her later explanation why she felt I was happier, was because, I was, and I acted like it. There was little difference in how well either of us passed, it was our attitude and the way we treated society that made the difference in how we were treated.

As a former member here once said:

QuoteGID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex. It only makes you Think you are and at that point you are subject to all of the same variations that exist with in that gender and all persons of a particular gender don't meet the cultural/social expectations of others for that gender. It is how you relate to/with and are axcepted by the opposite sex and or gender that determines your actual membership. Once you take that to the bank, they cash it in for you and life becomes brighter, trust me on this.

The core identity simply is not affected by the views of others, rather how we are able to face the world with that core identity because of our own fear which is a product of the views of others until delt with and conquered within ourselves. The core identity can only come through in it's fullest expression when it has ceased to be afraid to do so and actually has learned to respect itself for what it is.

In other words, the GID itself is not in conflict. Instincts such as self preservation and pride are instead in conflict with GID.

If passing was not that big of a deal, we would all throw on dresses and call it a day. When we could afford SRS, we would do it.

No vocal training

No Hormones

No Therapy

No hair removal

No nothing...

I think that it is wonderful that someone can feel that comfortable enough in their own skin to not make much of an effort to pass but I do wonder their motivation. Regardless of how we feel inside, at the end of the day we work towards validation of our Identities by others. We all want peace inside but cannot deny the comfort of peace outside. Relevant or not, that is how I feel.


BTW, Communities, while needed for social change, more often than not, do more harm than good on an individual level. Renae was a good example of this. With "Communities" come messages that are attempted to be sent out to the rest of the world. These messages ultimately only cover one point of view. This immidiately disenfranchises(sp?) everyone who feel differently. This causes division in the "community" and tends to push many away. Happens with Blacks, Gays, Christians, and pretty much any other people who choose to come under one banner.

Unity requires a clear cut agenda, complete with objectives and an expiration date.


laters...

The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure ...

Even if you are "read" appearance, mannerism, and voice tempers reaction, even most guys will accept a good looking TS woman, yes "beauty" trumps all !

But I think it is a lost cause if we expect anything other than upturned eyebrows, stares, ridicule, even hostility, towards someone who is obviously male presenting as female ?

Sad fact is that society is not accepting of things outside of the norm .... and "man in a frock"  just invites laughter and abuse.

Personally I have no wish to fight for the acceptance and rights of indiviuals who will never pass, I'm happy as I am, to be seen as a woman, and someone who will "woodwork" as time passes .... really sad but its where I am, and its the big divider within the TS community.

Successfull and convincing post-ops go their own way and dissapear off the register of "social acceptance" leaving the "unpassables" to represent the TS condition !

Would I go to a bar or restaurant in the company of an unpassable TS ?  No way am I secure enough to do that (!), just like my reason for not campaigning but "blending".

Laura x

Laura, i agree entirely with your post, theres nice sentiments in the community, and its nice to be friendly, but at the end of the day, folk need to realise the harsh reality of this situation. stop living in cookoo land, and to me, if a trans woman doesnt care about passing, and just wants to wear female clothes and be seen as female socially, surely thats along the lines of CD, TV? Transition is about becoming physically female...
i do have a problem with my own passability, i know im attractive enough, and i do see myself as female in the mirror more often than not, but my self confidence throws me sometimes, and the fact i think id be read more around an unpassable trans person is fairly justified. Point is, this is a medical problem, once we pass totally, and are post op, we can have the normal life we want. Sure, theres plenty who want to campaign, and fight, but thier guilt tripping those who want to have normal lives i find unacceptable. We are not leaving the unpassable people to represent the condition, many dont pass by choice TO represent it. I for one will live my life as i was meant to once im post op, as myself, with my own goals, and for number one. i dont think thats biggoted, or selfish, i think its my right.

Yes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

So, let me ask you this.

What am I to do knowing that it isn't possible for me to ever pass?
Hold out as long as I can before charging into a police station with a toy glock?

you could try doing as much as is possible, and surgery does work. ive yet to find someone who could NEVER pass.

Yeah, but surgery for some to pass is 50K or more (not to mention that this pushes back SRS quite a bit more), are you going to bankroll that?

On many jobs, it could take quite a while to be able to get that kind of money, meanwhile
you would be severely depressed possibly for 5 years and more.
Its easy to sit in your, and my situation, and say such thing

It also depends where you are. In certain areas, not passing has much worse consequences than others, which means that passing half-way is not really an option, unless you want to face death every day.

Let me restructure the arguement.

This is the main idea.

QuoteThe only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" ... is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

Lets Negate That:
A transexual woman will not find a "happy life" ... unless she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

Obviously Life isn't happy in your birth sex or you wouldn't be here.

Therefore, the only way to be happy is to: "pass absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure."

And if that isn't possible, No Happy Life.

You sure leave a lot of options open for those that don't pass.

Jessica

we arnt selecting options, society does that, i dont think its fair to start having a go at those who can pass because they do.

and your right Kiera, i forgot how much it costs >.<

I'm not having a go at anyone.

I'm deconstructing an arguement and saying it has no place in a support site like Susan's.

Fortunately I'm not a moderator and don't make those decisions.

It was this type of arguement that has been the cause of so many locked topics I can't even count them.

I think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows:
A transexual woman will not find a "happy life" ... unless she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

There are plenty of people who don't meet that criteria that have found a happy life.
Because it's not necessarily what is on the outside that makes you happy.

I'm out of this topic.
Jessica

Quote from: Laura Eva BThe only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" ... is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

I think you are trying to put me in a box that I don't fit into. I'm very sure that I don't pass close to 90% of the time, though I think probably more often than not. However the happiness in my life isn't predicated on how well I pass. Only on how I am accepted by friends, neighbors, and most others I deal with. My happiness comes from within. No one (NO ONE) can take that away from me, anymore than they can take my dignity away.

Sure I hope to pass and be accepted as much as possible, but I knew before starting transition what I was getting into, and accepted that there would be bumpy times.

One neighbor wouldn't talk to me for a long time, except an occasional "sir" or other intentional mis-use of pronouns. Instead of rolling my eyes, or a harsh remark I would smile and once even winked at him. As this is a friendly neighborhood, and neighbors here get together often to chat in one yard or another, eventually he was corrected by neighbors a couple times. Whether he changed because he saw he wasn't bothering me, or because of comments from other neighbors I don't know, or care. He tolerates me now, and is even friendly, at least to my face.

People our attitudes and the way we react can be the biggest factor in how we are accepted when read. If some attitudes don't change, I avoid them as much as possible, but I refuse to them change my life.

the arguments havent caused the lockage, no view point can really. its the ensueing fights between differnet camps OVER the subject that gets the topics locked.

and tbh, i think it DOES have a place on susans, granted this is a support site, BUT we need to accept that we transition in the wider world, not on susans, and we need to understand life, not flit around throwing flowers iaround the ethernet... the world is harsh, here of anywhere, we need to understand and prepare ourselves for it. not propogate unsustainable ideas.

Quote from: Sandi on July 06, 2007, 02:08:27 PM
People our attitudes and the way we react can be the biggest factor in how we are accepted when read. If some attitudes don't change, I avoid them as much as possible, but I refuse to them change my life.

Exactly. Since I've been here, I've been warned of SO many awful things: I'll be fired, disowned, neighbors will kick me out, my employer will seize my computer, my friends won't adapt, my wife will leave, people will think me a pervert and hide their kids... and they just didn't happen.

I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
Exactly. Since I've been here, I've been warned of SO many awful things: I'll be fired, disowned, neighbors will kick me out, my employer will seize my computer, my friends won't adapt, my wife will leave, people will think me a pervert and hide their kids... and they just didn't happen.

I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

~Kate~

Have you considered why those things didnt happen?  Because you pass? Do you think it would have been the same for you if you looked like a man with lipstick and a bra?

We have had this converstion many times here at Susan's. The issue isn't whether we at Susan's or other transsexuals are open or supportive. Most that find their way here are more sensitive to the passing issue and know how much it hurts those that don't and we are more open and understanding.

Arguing about who is more Intersexed, more female, more sexy, more pretty, more passing or whatever doesnt help the issue. You are barking up the wrong tree or beating a horse that has been beaten so many times in the past it gets really old to read.

The issue is not how society is supposed to be or how we want it to be. It's how it really is in real life. As long as you live in LA LA land where everybody is educated and understanding then the more ignorant and blissful you can be. More power to you if you think everybody lives in a world where everyone is accepted. For those that live in the real world though, they know society is cruel and not very understanding nor are they ready to deal with somebody that dresses as the opposite sex yet looks nothing like the sex they are trying to imitate.

I have been out with non passing TS's. I mean ones that have had srs and still look like men. Not just in the face, but the frame, hands, neck, shoulders, arms, legs, you name it. Think of John Elway with a bra, long hair, makeup and a vagina and no hrt. I understand that is the best they can do. I understand they are not freaks and they are nice people and its o.k to be with them. Society on the other hand.. well lets just say the public does not like it. They stare, point, whisper, sir them to death and it is really sad but ya know, that is just how it is. Here these people are, post op for 5years and they still have to go to support groups because they are just not happy and they will never pass. They never will acheive what they desire. It is not their fault. They did the best they could. It's just not good enough most of the time though, but the issue is does not lay with them. They could be happier if society would just accept them and let them be themselves.

Life is going to be much easier if you pass or look somewhat like your target sex. If you cannot pass at all, you better have a huge sense of humor and a really thick skin. It is not impossible to live transitioned and not pass, but it is far better and much easier if you do pass. I won't go as far to say they will never be happy not passing because I believe there is a way to be happy for anybody that truly desires it.

Honestly, I'm scared to death. I have seen society in action with non passing TS's. I dont want to be one. I shudder to think that if that is the best I can do, when it is my turn, I'll put that pistol in my mouth and be done with it. I will not live like those people. I refuse to. I can only hope that I will pass one day and hope for the best. After 36 days of hrt, there is no way of knowing yet. I still have time.

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

Kate, I so agree, where I live people are not out to be hostile, most of us live our lives to make friends, to get on with people; exchanging "small talk" with total strangers on train or bus makes us realise that we've more in common than we are different. 

Sometimes I think I'm drawn into friendly chat by other women because they've "read" me and they're curious, but I guess that's just my paranoia.

Passability is not a "holy grail" as you can be seen as a "TS woman", and still find strangers respect you, feel you are "brave" in what you're doing, and are really friendly. 

The important thing is to present yourself as best you can, be smart always (women read a lot into clothes - at work its "I really love that top" etc.) but "dress to blend", be seen to be confident and absolutely at ease in yourself. 

But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

Sure there are your old accquaintances, but what if they drift away, what if you "re-locate" for work or another reason ?  We have long lives ahead of us and we don't want to be solitary ....

Will you always be constrained to a kind of "TS ghetto", and be forced to seek to find support and friendship in the TS/TV/TG world .... not the "real" world ?

Guess by living a "happy life" I meant living the life I would have wanted if I'd been been born in the correct gender, or as second best living unambiguously as a woman. 

For some "happy life" might just mean happier than their pre-transitioned existence.  But if you don't pass, and really think you'll never pass, then you're making some really tough decisions about balancing "inner contentment" with the harsh reality of living for ever as a visible "TS woman" ?

Hard decisions ?

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 05, 2007, 06:58:49 PM
The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure ...

Even if you are "read" appearance, mannerism, and voice tempers reaction, even most guys will accept a good looking TS woman, yes "beauty" trumps all !

But I think it is a lost cause if we expect anything other than upturned eyebrows, stares, ridicule, even hostility, towards someone who is obviously male presenting as female ?

Sad fact is that society is not accepting of things outside of the norm .... and "man in a frock"  just invites laughter and abuse.

Personally I have no wish to fight for the acceptance and rights of indiviuals who will never pass, I'm happy as I am, to be seen as a woman, and someone who will "woodwork" as time passes .... really sad but its where I am, and its the big divider within the TS community.

Successfull and convincing post-ops go their own way and dissapear off the register of "social acceptance" leaving the "unpassables" to represent the TS condition !

Would I go to a bar or restaurant in the company of an unpassable TS ?  No way am I secure enough to do that (!), just like my reason for not campaigning but "blending".

Laura x

This is of course nothing more than a rehashing of a locked thread. It's the same elitist argument and it's premise is false. That premise being, that one must be passable to live a happy life as a TS. Rather than get into the finer points of the argument, which of course we have already done, to no avail. I will simply refute it with a picture of me on a typical day.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2Fliz081105031a.JPG&hash=d6df8d68145670bc3d1562d1a21f9f176208a31c)

Even though I am clearly not passable, I am well accepted in my community. I am never "sir'd", and I really get treated well. I interact with my community at the bank, the post office, the grocery store, Walmart, the local gas stations, 7-11, you name it. I really don't need to add anything else, because it proves the entire premise of this argument is incorrect, which is to say I should care if I am passable. Heck, 90% of the women out there are not passable.

I just don't care. The deal is this. If your happiness depends on what others think of you, than passing will be very important to you. If however, your happiness comes from within, it relies on no one. I don't need to be reassured I am a woman and I don't need others to see me that way. The only one that needs to see me that way, is me. And I do.

You know, by the time I was ten years old I made a very deliberate decision that I was not going to do what others want, just so they will like me. I don't need those kinds of friends. Having said that, I do recognize that most people really do need approval of society at large for their happiness. I guess that is why 50% of adults are on anti-depressants.

I chose to be happy. It depends on no one. I think people sense this. Once they know you don't care what they think, i.e. dressing how I please, they don't offer their opinions. No negative responses appears to be acceptance. So in the end, I get treated just as well as the passing TS, except I get the benefit of not ever having to worry if I pass or not.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I offically ducked out once the thread became heated but....


I must say that the picture posted may not be the best one to prove your point.

I would not think you a man upon first glance. Passing does not mean "Underwear Model". You look like a typical soccer mom (no offence).

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 07:50:04 PM
Even though I am clearly not passable...

What??? Elizabeth... Elizabeth... and people say *I* have a problem seeing myself honestly, lol.

You're quite passable there dear ;)

~Kate~

Come on? I have no breasts and a classic male pot belly, not to mention one can vaguely see my beard line. I doubt very seriously it fools anyone. I just don't care. I feel happy and that's how I carry myself. I think that makes people feel ok about me. I only got the wig because of my wife, who said I was just too bald and attracted attention.

Better yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 08:15:52 PM


Better yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Love always,
Elizabeth

I would. You pass way more than you think. And believe me I have been out with some that DID not pass. And you don't care nor are you expecting anything or have an in your face attitude. Your attitude is way better and you are happy with who you are. That makes a huge difference. Boobs don't make a woman btw. And I work with some pretty hairy GG's as well. 

On the other hand I'm different than you. I need to look like a woman. Everyone has different needs. Yours have been met and you are fine with who you are.

You chose to be happy and do what makes you happy. For some, it takes more than just choosing. Believe it or not I am slightly envious of you Elizabeth. I hope I can reach your mindset one day and find the peace you have.

This is totally not the response I was expecting, perhaps I am passing more than I think, but just don't notice because I don't care. I know I don't see me as being male, but I also want to be realistic. Compared with the women here that look passable, I am an easy mark. I really assumed it was my lack of caring what others think to how I am treated. Maybe I am more passable than I thought, but still nowhere near some of the girls that come here.

I hope my point is not lost, in that attitude is everything.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I can only answer by re-quoting my earlier post ....

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 07:20:33 PM
Passability is not a "holy grail" as you can be seen as a "TS woman", and still find strangers respect you, feel you are "brave" in what you're doing, and are really friendly. 

But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

Sure there are your old accquaintances, but what if they drift away, what if you "re-locate" for work or another reason ?  We have long lives ahead of us and we don't want to be solitary ....

Will you always be constrained to a kind of "TS ghetto", and be forced to seek to find support and friendship in the TS/TV/TG world .... not the "real" world ?

Guess by living a "happy life" I meant living the life I would have wanted if I'd been been born in the correct gender, or as second best living unambiguously as a woman. 

For some "happy life" might just mean happier than their pre-transitioned existence.  But if you don't pass, and really think you'll never pass, then you're making some really tough decisions about balancing "inner contentment" with the harsh reality of living for ever as a visible "TS woman" ?

Hard decisions ?

You appear happy as you are which is wonderful ... myself I feel my life is still in turmoil, I need to pass, it was a "pre-requisite" of my transitioning, and although I seem to be accepted without problems, I feel such frequent stress and anxiety over my appearance ...

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Durham_01.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Cousins_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Xmas_Dance_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Malabar_Junct_01.jpg

I have enough issues over self confidence contrary to all evidence, how would I cope if I really felt I was being "read" day after day ?

Laura x

QuoteBetter yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Elizabeth,

I'd be proud to go out for lunch with you, or anyone else here, whether they pass or not. BTW, I think you look great! I don't care what people think, I don't try to pass as anything other than myself, someone of indeterminate gender. People see what they want to see. All I really care about is accepting myself for who I am, and I want to be able to safely live as who I am. Some folks here are saying, well, we don't live in utopia, so we have to pass. If that's what works for you, great. But this doesn't work for everyone here, and don't expect everyone to want the same thing.

zythyra

Happiness comes from within. Being accepted not only as a woman but into the "inner circle" doesn't guarantee my happiness but it sure beats the alternative i.e. being tolerated while marginalized.

There is a wide gap between tolerance and acceptance.

'omg this isnt the same topic that got locked, but ill continue the arguement anyway you biggoted whatnots' etc
omg u gaiz, get over this... the passable folk arnt out to get the unpassable and vice versa, please take some care antidote and move along... nothing to see here... :police:

Elizabeth, plenty of woman have "pot bellies" if they're menopausal (40 years +).

My mother has a very big one, you look a postmenopausal woman (though they would have more breasts, no question to go with their pot belly :-)!!

The problem is we compare ourselves to 16 years old underwear models, we point and say, that's a woman!! But, that's just 1/10000 women, what about the other 9999, there's a hell of a lot of variance there. That's the same reason so many TS get implants even when they have breasts that are in the GG average for their frame; they have an idea of what a woman is in their mind that probably has little bearing with what exists in the real world.

Rachael, If you don't care for this thread,  there are plenty of others.

I think that this subject if its discussed with care and sensibility is a worthwhile one.

At some point, EVERYONE believed that they'd be unpassable.
Why do you think I waited so long to do this!!

These days, I'm being harassed by a gang of 10-15 people (age 10 to 25) they congregate a duplex just in front of my house. I can hear their taunts right in my living room!!! Last time, when I came into my house, they even called their friends on their cell phone to see the man-woman... Heard it from a third party (a woman who's kind of my spy). They sent children right to my door, to ring it!!! They had 2 children in my entranceway and even one looking through my front window.

I felt afraid for the first time, called 911... But they retreated, and finally said to the dispatcher I didn't need the police... For now. To top it all off, I got sired on the phone by the dispatcher even though I told him I was transgendered... My voice was under tension understandably. This was the first time that had happened in 5-6 years!!!! It was a very bad day.

Everywhere else I know I'm very passable, yet I've got to live this, every day (one day can be "just" one insult or taunt, another I got to run the gauntlet of two different unrelated groups of bums), just around my house. I'm hoping that when the weather gets colder in september it will get better and I'll have peace again.

Of the many TS I know, none have seen this amount of hate and bigotry, they either live in the suburbs or in central city neighborhoods which are much more tolerant.

I'm looking into carying mace or pepper spray, you never know!!

So, being passable, doesn't stop bigotry from the bigots, like not being passable doesn't mean you won't be happy if you are in a supportive environment.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 06, 2007, 11:16:51 PM
Happiness comes from within. Being accepted not only as a woman but into the "inner circle" doesn't guarantee my happiness but it sure beats the alternative i.e. being tolerated while marginalized.

There is a wide gap between tolerance and acceptance.

I guess it's that I would not want to be a part of an "inner circle" that would marginalize someone because they are TS. If I were, I would have to first, fool them into thinking I was one of them, then I would have to marginalize those who were like me, to stay in the "inner circle". This is way too big of a conflict for me. As to whether or not I am tolerated or accepted,that is a matter of how one views it, I suppose. I feel very accepted in my community. If this is in reality just tolerance, I am good with that. Either way, it's not my decision, so it's not worth concerning myself with.

"One can not control what others think, say or do, and it's wasted effort to try." I can however control what I think, say and do. I'll just spend my time and efforts on that. Making myself happy, instead of making others happy. I have already spent too much of my life doing that. I really just don't have the energy left to worry about what anyone thinks. It's their problem, not mine. It's a philosophical view about how I am going to live my life. The choice is clear. Live to please others or Live to please myself. Since I don't see anyone else lined up to live to please me, I guess I am going to have to do it, if I am to continue to find happiness.

I know others will not agree with this philosophical view and will find great peace of mind by fitting in with the "inner circle", even if that means condemning what they are and concealing it. Like I said, it's just a matter of personal choice. I won't deny that many can only find happiness in this way, I am just not one of them. I also believe there are others like me, so when someone makes a statement saying that there is only one way to find happiness, I have to disagree. Passing is not the only way to find happiness as a transsexual woman or man. It's one way. Another is self acceptance.

Love always,
Elizabeth

QuoteI guess it's that I would not want to be a part of an "inner circle" that would marginalize someone because they are TS. If I were, I would have to first, fool them into thinking I was one of them, then I would have to marginalize those who were like me, to stay in the "inner circle".

OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women. It is not so much as physical as it is spiritual. Beyond that though and beyond passing is the fact that society judges women by their appearance. We could rant and rave about that all we want but that is a fact.

So for me, it is beyond passing, like most women, I attempt to be as attractive physically as is possible. Call me vain, but I know I look better than the vast majority of women my age. (My advantage is that a lot of women have "let go" by this stage in their life.)

Anyway, my appearance has improved  dramatically over the last year and a half, not only did I have the FFS, another year and a half of HRT, but I lost 68 pounds as well. (And I am still trying to knock off another 15) I can tell you that life is a whole lot easier living in a vehicle that is not only unequivocally female but attractive and sexy than one that is minimally passable. And it isn't about what others think, it is about the way I feel about myself.

Yes, Gina, it takes a lot of work, not only work on transition issues but working one's butt off to get the money. It is a lot easier to put on a dress and makeup and tell the world, (and this is not to imply that anyone here is doing this) this is me, take it or leave it!

Anything that is worth anything requires a lot of effort to achieve.

QuoteIt is a lot easier to put on a dress and makeup and tell the world, (and this is not to imply that anyone here is doing this) this is me, take it or leave it!

I did that when I transitioned. No HRT, no SRS, and after a while of using it, no make up either. Just clothing, shaving and especially paying close attention to subtle cues in presentation. Having done that, I don't believe it's any easier than other routes. Cheaper, yes. That's all. For anyone to decide to live as who we are is hard work. Whatever method works for you, go for it.

QuoteI'm looking into carying mace or pepper spray, you never know!!

Not a bad idea Keira, those guys sound scary! And please be safe!

zythyra

Regina, some have so much financial problems that it can take 20 years to solve them
even if they are the most frugal person in the world!!

My best friend finished his studies (went into engineering 1.5 year, but didn't finish, then switched to a much less paying technical collarge degree) with 25K in debt and only now, 16 years later is he doing  his final payment!!!!!! You should see how he budgets, even if buys a $1 dollar sac a chip in a month (which he doesn't do often), he puts in his book.

He graduated like me, in the worse time to graduate, the early 90's (the economy was in the crapper in the province of Quebec then).

Paying a car with credit, he was so much on the edge for years (barely making enough to pay rent and eat and pay his university debt) that his credit was destroyed and took 8 years to recover. He could only borrow a limited amount of money at a high interest rate (which compounded his problem) the car he needed for work (he worked on the road as a environmental technician).

Finally, he changed career at 33 and took a 15K hit in salary to 22K, just to have the chance of having his university diploma paid by his new employer, took him 7 years getting a BA in business at night, working during the day, while supporting for his wife who has health issues and can't work and his daughter. He's just now making 50K (because he's got the degree) after decades of misery (even food baskets).

So, you tell me, if that guy had gender dysphoria, where on earth could he find the money, and what would happen to him if he found himself unemployable because of being a TS for some time!!!

50K, 20K, whatever K, for whatever transition expenses you need, if your in this bad financial situation for a decade and your need to pass in society to be happy (not all do, such as Elisabeth, but a lot undoubtably do), then you will be in a terrible situation if you don't.

If even worse, you are in an area where you cannot really live a decent life without passing (Even my neighborhood, in liberal Canada, is very far from ideal unless you've got a tough spine) forcing you to move away breaking the little ties you have in the hope of a little community acceptance, then its FUBAR, and I just hope this person will find a shoulder somewhere to lean on!!!

All of this is in Canada, where if you are in real dire straights, you still get some federal financial support and your health care is paid. In the US, I don't even want to imagine the incredible stress of living on the edge like that, its no wonder why the poor are in such poor health.

keira, the guy in your example made an awful lot of bad choices to put himself in such a bad financial position. As I pointed out on the other thread, virtually anything can be accomplished if one sets her mind to it. If one has a mindset that it can't be done, then most certainly that prophecy will come true.

Everyone's situation is different but there is always a path.

Melissa, he came from a dirt poor family, one parent schizophrenic, his wife also comes from a dirt poor family with child abuse and health problems, its a miracle he even went to university in the first place, I'd say not even 1% from where he lived went to university or any school after high school.

He had no one to support him ever and he had to take care of his wife from the age of 20 on.
If bad choice you mean he should not have maried her!!!! Well, some take love and loyalty very seriously, everybody deserves love, even those such as his wife who had many issues.

I didn't even tell you he had an infection to the heart 10 years ago (in the US, with the type of job he had (no insurance for sure) he would have been ruined for life, but somehow he survived).

Many, as you, has judged him harshly, but that's the old US mentality that if you're in doo doo you deserve it. That's why there is so little support for the poor in the US.

I don't believe that at all. You can make all the right moves and still not succeed in life. That's a tragedy all right!!! Those people deserve all the compassion in the world.

I'm sorry to hijack this somewhat. It just grates me to say that everybody can just have the money to transition and if they don't have it, its all their fault. Being in contact with him, and doing volounteer work, I know that this is NOT the case. He's out of the woods now, but for a long time, it could have gone either way and that's the case with many people living on the edge of life, of a financial abyss.

Keire:

I tried to PM you,but could not figure it out, and hope I do not embarrass you by saying publicly; You are brillent and beautiful in many ways. I wish I knew you in person as a friend. I truly admire how hard the fellow worked at caring for his family and getting an education. I hope to get to meet him some day.


Godiva

I am not judging him, I don't even know him. Not everyone succeeds even with all the motivation and positive energy in the world sometimes it takes a little luck too. OTOH virtually everyone who wallows in self-pity and negative thinking will not reach her goals.

The American Dream that everyone can amass a fortune is, of course, a myth. But we aren't talking about a fortune here, we are really talking a pittance,e specially when banks in the US are wiling to give credit cards to practically anyone who is breathing.

There is nothing which invites ridicule and scorn as much as someone
who has an overinflated opinion of themself. Surely we've all met
the bore who thinks he's the life and soul of the party, or the
idiot who thinks he knows everything. In the same way women (natal
or not) who dress inappropriately will receive unflattering comments.

Elizabeth "passes" because she is wearing the sort of outfit that
a natal woman of similar shape would wear. Put her in a sexy low
cut dress and she'd look ridiculous; but then so would a natal
woman of similar size and shape.

So, I wonder how much of the angst about not passing is actually
wanting the attention reserved for young attractive women; something
a lot of natal women would dearly love.

Older attractive women get a lot of attention too, sometimes unwanted but I suppose you can't have it both ways.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 07, 2007, 08:59:35 AM
...
OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women.
...

I think you have this all wrong. First you presume that all women have a desire to look as attractive as possible, then you assume that I don't feel I am a woman in my "soul", and third you presume that a person born in a male body, but feels like a woman, is actually a woman, when in fact they are not. You can brag all day long about how beautiful you think you, but the truth is, you don't know how people react to you. You are guessing, just as you are guessing what I must be feeling.

If you want to be in an "inner circle" of people that would condemn someone for believing they are a woman when they are born into a male body, when that is exactly what you are, that is a huge conflict I can not resolve. You apparently have no problem with it, as you have convinced yourself that you are somehow different than me.

You are not. You are a person that believes themselves to be a woman, who was born into a male body. Just like me. Now you can make dogmatic statements that somehow you are different because you care what the superficial "inner circle" thinks, but you are no different than me. It is this condescending attitude that I just don't get.

It's really obvious that you really think you are somehow better than me. That you are really a transsexual and I am not. And you base this on the fact that I won't let others decide for me, how I should behave and dress and present myself. You somehow have decided that the only way to be a woman is to just proclaim it. That somehow if you just keep saying "I am a woman, not a transsexual" that it will somehow be true. It's not.

Let me explain something. I am 45 years old. I am disabled and can't work. I get about $30k a year from SSD. In Southern California, that is not much money. I don't have money for FFS, Therapy, Hormones, or SRS. I have kids. So my choice is real simple. I can worry about what everyone thinks and live in misery, or I can not care and live my life as the woman I know I am.

I am not against living in stealth and I am not against anyone trying to be passable. What I am against, is denigrating other transsexuals to get yourself into the "inner circle", as you call it. I would never want to hang around any woman that thought less of a person because they were transsexual or even worse, a non passable transsexual.

I don't find presenting myself as a passable woman as being a fraud, as you claim. You however said, that no one can find acceptance in the real women's world unless they are passable. Meaning that in your opinion, natal women are prejudice against transsexual women. I have been full time over three years now, and I can tell you, that is just not a true statement. So if you want to fit into a group of women that deem themselves better than transsexual women, when you are one, that is too big of a conflict for me. I am not willing to hang around anyone that would denigrate a transsexual. That is the only fraud I am talking about.

I think you are confusing this whole issue, so let me boil it down for you. I don't care about superficial people. I don't want to be one. I don't want to hang around them. So for me, I don't need to hide that I am a transsexual woman. And just saying that I am not, is just not enough. It's not enough to say "I am a woman". If that were true, you would not be on your way to Thailand to have your penis and testicles removed.

I am sorry that you are ashamed of what you are. I used to feel the same way, but I have learned to embrace who I am. I am not threatened and not intimidated or ashamed because you proclaim yourself a woman and me something different. Like I said, we are very different, but not in our transsexuality. You are just as much of a transsexual as me and denying it will not make you feel better. Well, it might make you feel better, but it won't make it true. Am I a woman? You bet I am. Am I a natal woman? No. I am a transsexual woman and no matter what you say, so are you. That makes your only choice, to spend the rest of your life denying it. I just can't/won't do that. It's the lie that has done more damage to me than any other thing. I am ok with who and what I am and if anyone has a problem with that, it's their problem, not mine.

Love always,
Elizabeth

this might sound odd, but most non trans folk dont really care about trans folk, they dotn encounter many, dont know when they encounter most, and tbh, have very  steriotyped views of what a 'transexual' is. Now you really have to scream 'im a ->-bleeped-<-, look at me' got get read largely. MANY natal women have male features. If your vaguely like a woman/girl of your age and build clothing and behaviour wise, you pass. a 50yo woman in a miniskirt, and acting like a 20yo will draw attention.  This topic is all about personal insecurities. and people here are venting them in the wrong direction. Yes, if your 50 you will never looks as hot as a 17yo, this is life... But you can be just as much of a woman. Being female isnt about attractiveness, and attractiveness is often confused for pasability, Being female is being female, attractiveness is a rating of people regardless of gender. 'thats easy for you to say, you pass' no, its harder for me to say. to understand why this has been this way for me. Just an example from tonight, as an experiment, i went to work (im a bar girl) as normal, but wore a baggy poloshirt with my jeans,, and wore a binder over my boobs. just to see what happened. Same hair, same  no makeup, same voice. and i was called mate, buddy, sir, a few times, but largely, i was refered to as 'she' 'her' love, darlin, miss, etc. and thats not becase of how i looked, my behaviour, attitude, and aire, was that of a 20yo female, which i am. Now combine these things with a semi passable voice, and a decent attept at physically looking female, and one passes. People dont expect ->-bleeped-<-s, we are far more paranoid than we should be. paranoia leads to worry, leads to fear, people smell fear.  Now this topic wanted to cover stealth, passing, bigotry, hate, and prejudice, so far, its only shown prejudice, bigotry, and hate about passing and stealth... If we intend to discuss the subject, we really cant turning into what we want to eradicate... so far, all thats been demonstrated, is our infighting ability. lets not forget, some folk cant help being passable, as much as some cant help being unpassable, neither camp is any worrse than the other.
i tell you one thing, your all passing in the bitchyness regard... Grow up.
elizabeth:so someone born in a male body, who thinks thier female, transitions to a female body, with a 'female' brain, thier not female eh? yet you chastise this fictional 'inner circle' who condem people for belive ing thier women when thier born in a male body.
please pick your EFFFING side...
also, dont tell others how to belive, and we wont tell you what to belive.
I am a girl. please try to tell me im not, because right now, im sick of your ranting and raving and BS mongering. You have a go for one thing, then turn round and take that role...
do you actually know what day of the week it is? or when you decide, are you going to tell yourself its the day after?

After reading Elizabeth's last post, I can only say I have nothing but pity for her. She is projecting her shame and insecurity on myself and the rest of us who feel fundamentally different than she. Not better, just different. Case in point, I never, ever considered myself a crossdresser, much less labeeld myself one, as Eliz has done on her website. Anyway, I hope she truly finds the strength to be secure in herself and let others take care of themselves. Recovering alcoholics call this taking other people's inventories. It is a classic way to avoid one's own issues.

Rachael, in my circles---corporate and social in stylish, cosmopolitan San Francisco---there is a great emphasis placed on style and being "attractive." I would differ with your ageist POV that a 17 year old is necessarily more attractive than a woman in her fifties. I find mature women very attractive myself and attraction goes way beyond the physical BTW.

Anyway, I am on my way to Thailand for my SRS and BA.

I expect this thread will be locked the next time I log on.

I just want to say that I am disappointed that so many threads such as this one start off as a reasonable discussion and end up with girls bitching. Yes I know it happens in clubs and bars, but please ladies let's have some decorum on here!!!!
Meant kindly, best wishes, Louise

I can't really bring myself to care about this crap seeing as it doesn't effect me in the slightest.

UHHH!!!
We should only care about things that affect us directly!
So, if there is prejudice, poverty, injustice, etc. Anywhere
you won't give a crap!

I care about those things as much as any person does.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 08, 2007, 09:05:07 AM
After reading Elizabeth's last post, I can only say I have nothing but pity for her.
...

The ultimate act of condescension? You are the squared away person who is right and nothing left to do but pity poor Elizabeth, because she won't agree with a superficial, condescending, superior, attitude such as the one projected above. The last thing I would want is to be like that. I will never let my self worth be determined by what others think, especially those who don't know.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: regina on July 08, 2007, 06:55:59 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 07, 2007, 08:00:34 PMAm I a natal woman? No. I am a transsexual woman and no matter what you say, so are you. That makes your only choice, to spend the rest of your life denying it.

Elizabeth, you totally have a right to your opinion and your view of yourself and shouldn't be condemned or put down for it. I feel the problem in threads like this is when we go beyond speaking for ourselves and make generalizations about all of us... on either side of the coin. This would be a much more positive discussion if everyone would just keep their observations in the first person and not make global comments.

ciao,
Gina M.

Do you mean like this?

Quote from: Laura Eva B

The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not

or

Quote from: Rachael

Laura, i agree entirely with your post, theres nice sentiments in the community, and its nice to be friendly, but at the end of the day, folk need to realise the harsh reality of this situation. stop living in cookoo land, and to me, if a trans woman doesnt care about passing, and just wants to wear female clothes and be seen as female socially, surely thats along the lines of CD, TV? Transition is about becoming physically female...
i do have a problem with my own passability,
...

and

Quote from: Jessica

Yes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct.
It is the reality of the condition.

or this?

Quote from: melissa90299

OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women. It is not so much as physical as it is spiritual. Beyond that though and beyond passing is the fact that society judges women by their appearance. We could rant and rave about that all we want but that is a fact.

When someone proclaims to speak for all transsexuals, about how things are, I feel compelled to speak back, when I don't agree. And if people get personal with me, then I have not choice but to get personal back. I have not attacked anyone personally, just what they are saying, especially when they purport to speak for me, since I am transsexual.

This is "a rose by any other name", kind of argument, and it's silly. Let's see, we have girls who are posting at a transgender web site. They actually have men's bodies, but feel they are women. Now they insist they are not transsexuals, in an attempt to make themselves different and better than others who come here, by proclaiming they are really "women". Well, they are not really women. They are really transsexuals and they can call themselves anything they want, but the name we use for this condition in the English language is transsexual. Do they feel like women? Yes. Have they always felt like women? Yes, most of the time. But they are not. This is not an insult, or some way to demean someone who feels themselves to be a gender that their body does not match. We all feel that, that is what we are doing here.

I am against this snobby, elitist attitude of those who would separate themselves as better, not because they possess some trait I don't, but just because they proclaim it. I am not ashamed that I used to identify as a crossdresser. I used think that crossdresser and transsexual meant the same thing. I didn't know that some people crossdress for sexual reasons. I assumed everyone was like me and hiding the fact that they secretely wanted to be women. It was not until I listened to crossdressers that I realized that was a totally different thing. Having said that, I only crossdressed a couple of times my whole life, until I came out.

The real question is, why would someone go read my homepage and then mention it here, as if it were something bad about me? What is that all about? There are lots of crossdressers that turn out to be transsexuals. This is more elitist crap.

Quote from: Dr Harry Benjamin
...
Cross-dressing exists (with few exceptions) in practically all transsexuals, while transsexual desires are not evident (although possibly latent) in most ->-bleeped-<-s. It seems to depend upon how deeply and for what congenital or acquired reasons the sex and gender orientation is disturbed, whether the clinical picture of transvestism or transsexualism will emerge. The picture of TSism may first appear to be merely TVism, but whether this indicates a progressive character is by no means certain. (See chapter 4, "The Male Transsexual").
...
A low degree of largely unconscious transsexualism can be appeased through cross-dressing and demands no other therapy for emotional comfort. These are ->-bleeped-<-s (Group 1).

A medium degree of transsexualism makes greater demands in order to restore or maintain an emotional balance. The identification with the female cannot be satisfied by wearing her clothes alone. Some physical changes, especially breast development, are requirements for easing the emotional tension. Some of these pa

tients waver between transvestitic indulgences and transsexual demands for transformation (Group 2).

For patients of a high degree of transsexualism (the "true and full-fledged transsexual"), a conversion operation is the all-consuming urge, as mentioned earlier and as a later chapter will show still more fully. Cross-dressing is an insufficient help, as aspirin for a brain tumor headache would be (Group 3).

It must be left to further observations and investigations in greater depth to decide whether or not transvestitic desires may really be transsexual in nature and origin. Many probably are, but the frequent fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s may have to be excluded.

If these attempts to define and classify the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.

It is true that the request for a conversion operation is typical only for the transsexual and can actually serve as definition. It is also true that the ->-bleeped-<- looks at his sex organ as an organ of pleasure, while the transsexual turns from it in disgust. Yet, even this is not clearly defined in every instance and no two cases are ever alike. An overlapping and blurring of types or groups is certainly frequent.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

This elitism we see is not justified by the published research available. In this regard, it must be refuted when presented as the "truth" about transsexuals and what will make them happy. As much as everyone would like nice tidy defined lines, there appears to be none. The truth about transsexualism is that it is self diagnosed. So when we question someone elses transsexuality, we are questioning if they are lying or not. So when people say this is the truth about transsexuals or that is the truth about transsexuals, they imply that anyone that does not meet that criteria is a lier. This underlying accusation is contemptuous and offensive, considering the source.

I am not afraid to stand up to these these elitists because they might try to embarrass me. I am secure in who I am. I think what they are doing is wrong, and I believe it negatively affects those who are just coming to terms with all of this. If you really are not a transsexual and you really are a woman? What are you doing here at Susan's? I thought this was a place for people who have issue with their gender not matching their body. I don't come here so someone can try to make me feel bad by proclaiming that there is something wrong with me if I don't believe what they believe. Any line that is typed into a forum that starts with "every", "any", "all", "never", "always", is to be questioned. We are all different, we don't all feel the same things.

I am not going to listen to someone who either has already have GRS or is on thier way to having GRS, tell me they are not transsexual. It's absurd, unless they are intersex. It's silly semantics. One can call it anything they want, but the word we use in English is transsexual. If that offends people that are transsexual, because they don't like the word, I don't know what to say. How are we supposed to talk about this? Why does someone proclaim themselves to be "a woman" and not transsexual? What is gained from that? And why do they expect that others should go along with this, not to offend them?

My feeling is, if you are not transsexual and you want to denigrate those who are, go somewhere else. Don't come to a site that was set up for transgendered people.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 07:20:33 PM
But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

I had to laugh when I read this. I never started making any friends at all until after I came out and began showing up places in a dress. And at the very beginning I had no idea how to pass, I really sucked at it. I learned the hard way over time. But it didn't matter to my friends, which kind of demolishes the assumptions behind your statement, Laura.

The reason I never made any friends before coming out was, I was closed off from my own self, closed off from life. When I came out, people remarked on how joyously I lived my life and they felt glad to share this joy with me. Very quickly I made more friends than I would know what to do with. I went from social nonentity to popularity almost overnight. In the social circles I moved in, every last person was cisgender and I found vast abundance of support, affirmation, and love. I made a couple of trans friends too, apart from the social whirl, a couple of wise old gals who kept to themselves unassumingly but also became a great support for me.

The support, love, and affirmation just keep happening for me. I think the reason is I am finally happy being myself and radiate this happiness infectiously. Or as Marianne Williamson said, when we liberate ourselves, we give permission to those around us to liberate themselves too. It really works and I live by that.

And all of this without passing.

As for attire, I kept my style restrained, elegant, modest... a bit on the conservative side... even though my friends kept urging me to dress more splashily... one womanly gift I have is knowing how to dress for the occasion. Always chic but understated, this is the great thing about being Italian, our talent for la bella figura. The compliments I get on my style are sincere (you can tell when they're fake), women come to me asking for fashion advice. I am just so grateful for all the blessings in my life, this has carried me through the rough spots. Of course as I go in public I occasionally encounter people who treat me mean, I expected it, and fortunately those incidents have been few and far between... and anytime that happened, I had plenty of cisgender friends who would gladly leap to my defense. Yes, the negative stuff hurt me a lot, but it was vastly outweighed by the positive stuff.

The only thing in society that caused problems for me was when I worried about passing. Clearly it wasn't the non-passing that was the problem... it was my worrying about it. Having so many supportive friends meant I was able to deal with it, love myself just as I am right now, and grow ever stronger and more confident. And better-looking once I got on HRT, of course.


Posted on: July 09, 2007, 12:30:42 AM

---

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 07:50:04 PMI just don't care. The deal is this. If your happiness depends on what others think of you, than passing will be very important to you. If however, your happiness comes from within, it relies on no one. I don't need to be reassured I am a woman and I don't need others to see me that way. The only one that needs to see me that way, is me. And I do.
[...]
I chose to be happy. It depends on no one. I think people sense this. Once they know you don't care what they think, i.e. dressing how I please, they don't offer their opinions. No negative responses appears to be acceptance. So in the end, I get treated just as well as the passing TS, except I get the benefit of not ever having to worry if I pass or not.

You said it so well, Elizabeth. I'm gonna give you a brownie point for that post. ;) Really, seriously, my experience has borne out the truth of Elizabeth's wise insight here.

I agree that in the picture Elizabeth passes quite well, and I think it's because she has discovered the real secret to it. And it ain't looks. It's attitude.

'Cause the paradox is, as someone once said (I think it was Andy Warhol?) - When you stop wanting something is when you get it. Failure to pass bothered me a lot at first, but then I decided to hell with passing, I'm just going to go ahead and enjoy my life. And that more than anything else (well, HRT) made me start passing.

I know what a huge concern it is, and how hard it is to just let go and be yourself, but my experience leads me to believe that loving yourself and affirming your inner worth is what really matters. I don't believe the blue meanies of society hold that much power over me. I really don't care. I live with love and joy, and good people of all walks of life respond to that with acceptance.

The greatest thing that ever happened to me was being accepted into a women's circle totally as one of them with no distinction drawn between me and them in the slightest. This was possible for 3 reasons: 1. There is generally a more enlightened attitude spreading in America today toward TG; 2. I am at peace with myself and so generally folks are at peace with me; 3. My womanhood is self-evident in my manner and presentation, and that's really all that counts. I think passing is overrated. It sure is nice when it occurs, but I don't pin my happiness or self-worth on it, which makes for a happier life overall.

To go into more detail about my lack of caring:

Transition is IMO about socially being accepted as a woman, physical bits I think are secondary to that as most of people you come across in day to day life are not going to give you a knicker inspection, plenty of people are asexual for whatever reason and deal with it just fine.

To be socially excepted as a woman you need to be a socially plausible one which is a bit tricky for most people and yeah, not passing makes it harder, much harder though still not impossible, who you are is way more important than your ->-bleeped-<-itus.

The three main problems IMO with the unpassable:

1) dress/makeup sense, FFS don't dress like a drag queen, LOOK at women of your size/age/complexion and then go from there, don't over-do makeup either, ever see a woman wearing full makeup casually who doesn't look mental and scary? nope.

2) don't be clingy, a bunch of unpassable "loners" I know when I throw them a bone they bite my arm off and I can't deal with that, just because I take you out for a drink because no one else will does not mean I'm your best friend forever.

3) Voice, even if you would never physically pass in a bazillion years voice is independent of that, work on it and get it perfect it's not impossible. It is EXTREMELY difficult for anyone to accept you as female with an obviously male voice as a male voice=male speech patterns.


I found in the early days that allot of women were interested in me kind of like a novelty friend, take advantage of it but then move on when you make friends of your own because any friendship based on them being interested in you as a ->-bleeped-<- is frankly doomed.


When it comes down to it there are allot of REALLY ugly women out there who because they were socialised as female from day one they are not challenged for the fact that they look like a bloke. they may be mistaken for one every now and again though though it's no big deal.

a rule of thumb is "what'd a natal woman do in my position" as a starting point, don't forget that this is about being you but if you think you're a woman you've got to be one and that is not about wearing a dress it's about who you are socially.


Why I fail to care:

I fail to care mostly about these inane arguments, I've hung about with the "->-bleeped-<- elite" and some not so passable people but when it comes down to it I really don't care how passable someone is, who they are is far far more important. I don't feel uneasy about hanging with less passable people either because I'm secure in my own self to the point of not caring.

I try to help those less fortunate than I am as much as is practically possible and often unfortunately that help is not enough but this is not going to be solved by transsexuals who present as ->-bleeped-<-s demanding they be accepted as a woman, you can't demand that.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 09, 2007, 12:35:01 AM
...
I know what a huge concern it is, and how hard it is to just let go and be yourself, but my experience leads me to believe that loving yourself and affirming your inner worth is what really matters. I don't believe the blue meanies of society hold that much power over me. I really don't care. I live with love and joy, and good people of all walks of life respond to that with acceptance.

The greatest thing that ever happened to me was being accepted into a women's circle totally as one of them with no distinction drawn between me and them in the slightest. This was possible for 3 reasons: 1. There is generally a more enlightened attitude spreading in America today toward TG; 2. I am at peace with myself and so generally folks are at peace with me; 3. My womanhood is self-evident in my manner and presentation, and that's really all that counts. I think passing is overrated. It sure is nice when it occurs, but I don't pin my happiness or self-worth on it, which makes for a happier life overall.

I think that is a great attitude and the end result is happiness, instead of a need to try and blow out someone else's candle, to make one's own seem brighter. I want to see everyone empowered to live their lives happily. If passing is the only way to make transsexuals happy, than many transsexuals would be doomed to unhappiness. I just don't believe it needs to be that way. It's about living one's life in a way that brings fulfillment, not stress over meeting the demands of others. I think most of us have done enough of that already.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, regarding your interesting posts on this thread, I want to tell you that you have my respect. I am no intellectual and could never write with such eloquence and belief. I am on rung one of this ladder, you are near the top and I am grateful for what I am learning from you.
Best wishes, Louise

I posted above late at night before bed and slept on it. Now in the morning over coffee I'd like to think through it a little further.

I apologize if what I said came across as arrogant or too sure of myself. I struggled through tons of doubt, despair, and darkness to reach this place of inner peace. I fully empathize with any soul who finds it rough going. It is rough, no sugarcoating it.

I do not, cannot presume to define what the life of a transsexual woman must be. Each individual can only find those answers for herself. I was just presenting what I've found worked in my situation-- and to gently suggest that one's options may not necessarily be as limited as they might seem at times. I said "passing is overrated," but then I'm blessed to live in an urban area of highly educated people. I sometimes hear it said that in some areas failure to pass can get you physically attacked. So if it becomes a matter of personal safety, then passing isn't overrated. Depends on context. Can anyone name specifically any of these areas where failure to pass is physically threatening?

Even then-- Brandon Teena passed (until he was outed). Gwen Araujo passed (until she was outed). Tyra Hunter passed (until they pulled her panties off). In each case, failure to pass had nothing to do with their murders. It was transphobia that somehow got kicked into high gear because their stealth was compromised. Who knows, maybe not passing so well is actually better protection for one's safety, because then the expectations are not set so high, and do not provoke violent rage when outed.

In each case, cisgender hetero men were the murderers. For my own safety, I stay away from cisgender hetero men as much as possible (with exceptions for a few good ones who I know can be trusted). I don't try to ingratiate myself with cis het men--their world is not for me. I associate with women, gay men, and trans men whose company I find life-affirming. Even if women hated me, I don't fear physical violence from them.

It helps that I'm a mature woman. This is specific to my situation. I still get a rush of delight when a man responds to my beauty--but I don't take the bait. But for a younger woman, the high of being seen as beautiful and sexy, and feeling horny, might be impossible to resist. It's nice to be young and pretty, but from what I can tell, more dangerous (especially in stealth). I may not be as pretty but I keep myself safe, and am getting what I want out of life without attention from men.

In this thread I learned of one more blessing to give thanks for-- I don't live in a society that's so shallow a person's worth is judged by her looks. That sounds like a dismal, soulless place to be. I'd wondered about moving to San Francisco as one possible option, but this makes me reconsider the attractiveness of the place. The people I associate with tend to be less materialistic and more spiritual, who always look deeper than the surface and value a person's soul above all.

I may have given the wrong impression that I don't even try to pass-- I do, I always make my very best effort. This is again an Italian thing-- we don't leave the house without looking our best (I'm talking about cultured, educated people in Italy, not guidos in New Jersey). Just the fact that I care for my looks and present myself well helps a lot to be accepted among cisgender women-- it goes deeper than looks, though-- they accept me because they can see I genuinely like women and feel comfortable blending with them, assimilating into their world. They can tell this originates from reality deep within my soul, it cannot be faked. I just feel I belong there and they feel I belong with them. It's vibes, not looks.

That doesn't mean looking one's best is insignificant-- but it is part of the whole, and not even the most important part. In my personal humble opinion. Thanks for listening and sharing, everyone. This thread has been enlightening and educational, and helped me to get clearer about where I'm at.

I said I was out of this thread, and I am however, I feel the need to defend myself.

Elizabeth when You used my words as an example:

QuoteYes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

You must have missed my post 10 minutes later which also said:

QuoteI think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows...

Just wanted to clear that up.

Jessica

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 09:38:08 PM
You appear happy as you are which is wonderful ... myself I feel my life is still in turmoil, I need to pass, it was a "pre-requisite" of my transitioning, and although I seem to be accepted without problems, I feel such frequent stress and anxiety over my appearance ...

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Durham_01.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Cousins_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Xmas_Dance_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Malabar_Junct_01.jpg

I have enough issues over self confidence contrary to all evidence, how would I cope if I really felt I was being "read" day after day ?

Laura x

All your pics in the links look female Laura Eva which is a great asset as many people even after transition still are unable to 'pass' for various reasons. Agreed the main object for everyone is to 'pass' in every situation and you have achieved that by the look of it. You are also lucky you have a daughter and family who loves you. I don't have any children.

I too have been lucky and seem to pass and I haven't had any surgery, but I am also not very self confident and wish I could be more feminine and attractive. 

Quote from: Jessica on July 09, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
I said I was out of this thread, and I am however, I feel the need to defend myself.

Elizabeth when You used my words as an example:

QuoteYes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

You must have missed my post 10 minutes later which also said:

QuoteI think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows...

Just wanted to clear that up.

Jessica

Jessica,

I did see your other post. I used that particular post of yours, not because of the point of view you were arguing, but only to show I was not the only person in this thread that had made broad generalizations about our community. I didn't mean to offend you or make you feel like your position needed defending and if I made you feel that way, I am sorry, it was not my intent.

While Regina cautioned everyone, I was the only one mentioned by name. I thought it only fair to point out that there were plenty of generalizations going on, long before I posted on this thread. Thanks for your understanding.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I agree with what Elizabeth and Hypatia have said, that ones attitude is among the most important things to living successfully. When I first started RLE, I was concerned about my ability, or lack thereof, to pass. After a short while, I came to the conclusion that passing didn't matter, living as I am and being happy with that is the important thing. Sure, I make an effort to look good, but it isn't be-all end-all. Sometimes I pass, sometimes I don't, so it goes. My friends know who I am and care about me. They know my history. I don't need for people to see me as woman-born-woman, if they see a transwoman, that's perfectly OK.

zythyra

My choice of language was blunt, however my sentiment was honest, I know several people who have no friends bar me and that doesn't make me a saint however they can get really rather weird and annoying when I try to help them socialise, my point was that if you have few friends don't try to be best friends forever with them because it's annoying and creepy.

I deal with it as best I can.

This is especially when they come onto you, which every such example of the type I'm talking about has.

I agree with maud, ive had some folk latch onto me becasue im nice, and then bite till i tell them to eff off...  >:D
Although something this topic shows, is a lack of reality within the transcommunity...

Quote
Although something this topic shows, is a lack of reality within the transcommunity...

Just because people disagree with you, does not mean there is a lack of reality.

Statement: Unless a TS passes 100% yadda yadda yadda they will never be happy.

a few people say, "That's not been my experience at all. I don't pass very well and I'm very happy"

Proving the statement false (it only takes one piece of evidence against an arguement to prove that it doesn't hold for all cases)

Just because you refuse to accept other people's experience as valid doesn't mean there is a lack of reality within the community.  It means that you disagree with them. It means that their experience is different than yours.

In my opinion Rachael, you are being just as closed minded as those who persecute us when you imply things like, anyone who doesn't see things my way 'Lacks Reality', or '[needs to stop] flit[ting] around throwing flowers.'

Take for instance two places, just in the U.S.
A small town in Georgia, population 20, a girl who transitions there will have a very different experience than another girl who transitions in San Francisco.

They have vastly different experiences, if your the girl from San Francisco, and talking to the girl from Georgia, she is going to see transitioning much different than you do.  Does that mean there is a lack of reality on her part?  That is what your above post is implying.

Everyone here has different experiences from one another, we are all from different places, grew up differently, have different families, etc...  Try and respect those differences.  One day I hope you will actually appreciate other people's experience because they are different from your own and you can sit down with them and share experiences and learn.  Which, by the way, is why Diversity is so important.

Jessica

I didn't read the entire topic, I just read the first page. I want to say that I pass pretty good, and I have never gotten any "sir" , but I would go out with someone who doesn't pass quite as well because I know how it feels to not be able to pass and I just want them to feel normal even though they might get stares from public.  I think it is kind of hilarious with the way people react to someone who doesn't pass , they seem so frightened and so hostile.

One of the important things you can do when you don't pass is to hold your head up high and be confident and do not shy away from other's stares. If you look back at them, they will look away.

Quote from: Jessica on July 10, 2007, 08:35:29 AM

Quote
Although something this topic shows, is a lack of reality within the transcommunity...

Just because people disagree with you, does not mean there is a lack of reality.

Statement: Unless a TS passes 100% yadda yadda yadda they will never be happy.

a few people say, "That's not been my experience at all. I don't pass very well and I'm very happy"

Proving the statement false (it only takes one piece of evidence against an arguement to prove that it doesn't hold for all cases)

Just because you refuse to accept other people's experience as valid doesn't mean there is a lack of reality within the community.  It means that you disagree with them. It means that their experience is different than yours.

In my opinion Rachael, you are being just as closed minded as those who persecute us when you imply things like, anyone who doesn't see things my way 'Lacks Reality', or '[needs to stop] flit[ting] around throwing flowers.'

Take for instance two places, just in the U.S.
A small town in Georgia, population 20, a girl who transitions there will have a very different experience than another girl who transitions in San Francisco.

They have vastly different experiences, if your the girl from San Francisco, and talking to the girl from Georgia, she is going to see transitioning much different than you do.  Does that mean there is a lack of reality on her part?  That is what your above post is implying.

Everyone here has different experiences from one another, we are all from different places, grew up differently, have different families, etc...  Try and respect those differences.  One day I hope you will actually appreciate other people's experience because they are different from your own and you can sit down with them and share experiences and learn.  Which, by the way, is why Diversity is so important.

Jessica

Yes, I agree with all of that and my posts in this thread reflect that. This whole notion that there is only one way to transition and be happy is just silly. Not only is passing, not everything, I don't think it's even the most important thing. The most important thing is self acceptance. Once one accepts themselves, it doesn't matter if other do. In this regard passing becomes irrelevant.

On the other hand, if passing becomes the most important thing, than there will always be an underlying insecurity, since there is no way to know what others are thinking. So? do you let strangers have control over one's self esteem, or does one take control of their own self esteem?

Love always,
Elizabeth

my talk of lack of reality, isnt specific to one type of transition, im refering to how people react here. and view points. And i dont take kindly to be referd to as the same as transphobes, I simply pointed out there is far too much limp wristedness in the trans community, under some false pretense that all women are peace loving hippys. Women can be as strong willed as men, and be as decisive, and realistic.
THE WORLD IS NOT NICE. it is also unlikely to accept all trans folk as members of thier chosen gender without them putting some effort in. Yes, its a wo way game, but 2 players requires you to do legwork too. not just them. It is not someone elses perogative to accept what we say blindly, and im sick of topics like this sprouting up where the same people winge about thier lives, and how people are so un accepting, and how all the 'meanies are out to get them'. The world is a hard place, and nobody will do your favours for nothing... especially not in this situation.
Not everyones transition or experience is the same, but there is an aweful lot of people telling others how to live, and that gets my back up. People need to understand some things said here arnt telling folk how to live or think, but some things are REAL, and need to be understood, for example, To sucessfully live a happy life in wider (non trans community) society, happyness and comfort in your chosen gender role is SIGNIFICANTLY helped by passability. Surely the goal of transition, is to fix your body to your mind, and thus you would WANT to look like a woman or man depending.
Elizabeth: If you find passing as female is lieing to people, then maybe you arnt a woman if thats how you feel? (emphasis on maybe)
To me, i am a girl, i dont identify as a transexual girl, or a trans-woman, just a girl, and in a few years, a woman. Im happy with this identification, and passing allows me to exist in society as a complete person, i am female inside and out. Passing = being treated like your chosen gender role without prejudice, because belive me, even if people accept trans folk as thier chosen gender, passing as a transexual woman is not why i have done this... and id conside that a failure, and if i could only transition to a transexual, id not do this, but thats me. If one doesnt wish to pass, or belives they should be treated as female without needing to put effort in. then this might not be for you. Because belive me, folk arnt going to take a man in a dress as a woman any time soon.
my words are realistic, im sorry if i offend, but theres some bubbles in this community that do more harm than good.

i completely agree with you Gina, there are many levels of dysphoria, and i totally agree and respect peoples desires, as i wish them to respect mine in return. What gets my back up, is people lumping me with them, or telling me how to think, or that i must see things in a certian way, for example, ive had a few recent arguments that i MUST identify as a transexual female, because just identifying as a girl is a lie, and im going from one closet to another. (what the *fruitcage* ever) I dont belive peoples personal identificaitions or need is under question, but ->-bleeped-<- politics are... and they are more prejudicial than transphobes...

AsianGurlee: cheers for the neg rep, 'things ive said are mean'? did seeing reality upset you that much?

Hmm, can't speak for anyone else, personally I identify simply as "woman" (I really don't see what the controversy is here), and I'm up front about the fact that transsexualism was my path to womanhood (again, what's so controversial about this?). I don't see any contradiction between the two. I agree with Gina that a stark dichotomy is unhelpful--both perspectives, taken together, serve a purpose on the way to self-realization.

Yes, full womanhood is my goal, keep the eyes on the prize, keep on walkin, keep on talkin, as they sang in the Civil Rights movement. I will never stop striving to reach my goal of maximum social acknowledgment of my womanhood. That doesn't mean I have to wallow in misery and fear while the work is still in progress. There is already so much love, beauty, and joy happening for me along every step of the way. I'm not ashamed of being trans. I'm not ashamed of who I am. I will not let the benighted opinions of the worst bigots of society define who I can be. Especially because this is not the 1950s any more. We are blessed to live in a time when transsexualism is better understood and more accepted than ever before. I'm going to make the most of it. I'm not afraid. I refuse to let fear run my life. Fear is what kept me closeted for too long. It was destroying me but I have chosen to say no to fear and yes to love.

Maybe it comes down to two basic worldviews:
1. People are basically evil.
2. People are basically good.

Each of us has a choice which of these to emphasize. I have chosen to live as if people are basically good, and guess what, life does work out that way for me more often than not. You can have more of whatever you pay attention to. You are free to choose.

I'm not Christian, but a propos of this subject a verse from the Gospel comes to mind, which I always thought was pretty interesting: "Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." It allows for both perspectives to be taken into account. Finding the balance between them can be kind of tricky, but the edge is where the most interesting stuff happens.

imo, people are basically people, and thus contain potential for both good and evil...
ANYWAY :P

Tbh, my optimum social acceptance of my girlhood is to keep my trap shut, if someone asks,  (lets face it, they dont) ill tell them the lot,but if they dont, im not going to tell them im trans... end of.

Quote from: Rachael on July 10, 2007, 04:28:11 PM
...
Elizabeth: If you find passing as female is lieing to people, then maybe you arnt a woman if thats how you feel? (emphasis on maybe)
...

I have never said that passing is lying to people.

Quote from: Elizabeth

I guess it's that I would not want to be a part of an "inner circle" that would marginalize someone because they are TS. If I were, I would have to first, fool them into thinking I was one of them, then I would have to marginalize those who were like me, to stay in the "inner circle".

I was referring to an "inner circle" of women who supposedly don't accept transwomen. If one were to stealth their way into such a group, one would also have to adopt this view that transwomen are unacceptable or at least not object to it. So if one is a transwoman and belongs to an "inner circle" of women who denigrate transwomen, would be a lie.

You know, you are really trying your hardest to make this personal because I don't agree with your point of view. I refuse to go along with this whole idea that one can only be happy if they are passable and if you are unhappy it's only because you are not passable enough. I believe that is a bad strategy. Does this mean one should do nothing to pass? It depends on the person. There are plenty of GG's who make no effort to come off as women, in fact many look very boyish/manish. Perhaps those who are not that passable are going for a more manish look. The point being, once one has transitioned to the extent they feel comfortable, all they need to do is accept themselves. If one does not care what others think, then one does not rely on them for their self esteem. You are having a real problem getting this. Not everyone places their own self worth in the judgements of others. So what if someone clocks you? Who are they? How does it change your life?

I am not embarrassed of who I am. I am not embarrassed that I was born into a man's body. You keep trying to say that must mean I am not transsexual. You speak for me, but you don't know how I feel. You are imposing your feelings onto me. Whether or not I pass is not an issue for me because the judgements of others don't change how I feel. Why would I want to give others that kind of control over me? Why would I allow myself to feel bad just because someone notices I am not a natal female? That implies I am a bad person for not passing well enough. And according to you, that should be a signal to me that I need to work harder to pass. To me that is insane thinking. How can I ever find happiness if I give up control over how I feel, to people I don't even know?

I like who I see in the mirror. So it don't matter if anyone snickers at me, or points or makes comments. It doesn't change anything. It don't change how I feel about myself or my gender Identity. It's not going to make me start dressing like a man and the only other choice is to feel bad about myself. I don't understand why this point is lost on you. The point of all of this is simple to me. It's to be happy. Not to make others happy, to make me happy. I am not interested in pretense and trying to be something for someone else. I don't want to "act" like a woman. I can just be me, because I believe I already am a woman, I just have the wrong body.

Now I know there are natal females as well as males that spend their whole lives making sure they live up to society's expectations. Make sure they have the right label on their clothes, the right make of car, white carpet and stainless steel appliances all that other superficial crap. I have been around long enough to know that stuff won't make me happy. I don't care if my neighbor mows his lawn diagonally because that is "in vogue". I am not interested in any way to try to achieve happiness by doing what others think I should.

Like I said, if the judgments of others are important to you, then passing will be important to you. That is not to say that everyone passing finds the judgments of others important, as you imply I have said. If passing is important to one's own self image, than it's necessary for happiness. But we have to be realistic. Not everyone is going to be passable, for a whole host of reasons, not all of which are resolvable.

What of those people? Are they doomed to unhappiness because they can not achieve 100% passability? To listen you, one would think so. Your one size fits all solution, work harder on passing, is not going to work for many. It is for not only these people I speak, but especially them. One can have a happy life as a transsexual, without passing. But to do this, one has to accept and love themselves and be willing to ignore the judgments of others.

I will go a step further and say that, once a person has learned to love and accept themselves, passing will become less important to them, regardless of their passability. And I have listened to enough post op transsexuals to know this is true. Many become far less conscious of their passability and accept they are women. This comfort in themselves affects how they dress, use makeup, and carry themselves in public.

So in the future, if you are going to say what I think and feel, please use a quote from my posts.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 06, 2007, 11:16:51 PM
Happiness comes from within. Being accepted not only as a woman but into the "inner circle" doesn't guarantee my happiness but it sure beats the alternative i.e. being tolerated while marginalized.

There is a wide gap between tolerance and acceptance.

Racheal,

Have you been reading this thread? It was not me who posted about being accepted into the "inner circle". As for you other question, although rhetorical I am sure, it should be pretty apparent I am not paranoid in the least. Are insults all you have?

Love always,
Elizabeth

This topic is being locked for 24 hours.  I guess we all need a break from it.

tink :icon_chick:

Posted on: July 10, 2007, 08:15:04 PM

---

***********************************************************

Okay 24 hours have passed, and I'm unlocking this thread once again.  Let's remember THE SITE RULES (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) when posting please, particularly these:

Quote from: Site Rules2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to raise issues see term #20 below.

3. Posting is a privilege, not a right. We reserve the rights to refuse or remove access by anyone to this site for any reason, and to remove any posting from any forum for any reason

5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which of a threatening tone, are obscene, or depict illegal acts will not be permitted.

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person.

20. The staff of this site exist solely to enforce the TOS and rules of this web site. If you disagree with their actions or in regards to a specific situation feel free to contact Susan at her email address susan@susans.org with the details of the situation. She will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.

The terms of service can be modified at any time and are effective without further notification required. If you do not wish to accept these terms you are encouraged to find another web site more to your liking.

Thanks very much kitty cats!

tink :icon_chick:

From the thread on passability...

QuoteTranswomen who really don't pass are more often viewed as fetishists or kooks. I'm not saying this is fair, but I've heard a lot of reactions like this.

This keeps coming up in threads about passing. My head isn't in the clouds, I understand that this is often the reality of how things are, however I don't accept it as how things must be. I want to see the day in which a transwoman or transman who doesn't pass (whether by choice or roll of the dice) is fully accepted as a human being, not a freak. What can we do (all of us, passing or non-passing) to make this a reality in our society? I'm not saying people shouldn't make effort to pass if they want to, for their own reasons of how they want ot look, but someone shouldn't be penalized, either by society, or hir fellow trans-sisters and trans-brothers, for not measuring up.

Hopefully change can happen in our lifetimes, or at least steps so that future generations of trans people don't have to suffer for who they are. What can we do to create this change? I want to work together and find solutions.

zythyra

Godiva,

I just wanted to apologize in my part of getting this thread locked for 24 hours. Although I don't feel I have violated the rules, here at Susan's, this was not my thread, it is yours. It is obvious to me at this point that there are some of us that are never going to agree. Despite my best effort to convey my points, I have not succeeded in convincing those with different beliefs, of my point of view. I most certainly could have done a better job of expressing myself without getting upset, but sometimes it's hard.

I respect the fact that my sisters/brothers here have different views than me and my failure to convince them of mine does not serve to strengthen my resolve, but to search for flaws in my beliefs. Perhaps in the future I will either change my beliefs or find a better way to communicate my current beliefs in a way that will be more convincing.

My apologies to all my sisters/brothers who may have been offended or made to feel uncomfortable by the  discourse of this thread.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Stay on topic or the non-topical post(s) will be deleted.

Steph

QuoteTHE WORLD IS NOT NICE

So I guess you are saying that your world is not nice. My world is beautiful, and not only the world but the universe.


Posted on: July 12, 2007, 11:29:35 PM

---

Quote from: Rachael on July 10, 2007, 06:12:13 PM
i completely agree with you Gina, there are many levels of dysphoria, and i totally agree and respect peoples desires, as i wish them to respect mine in return. What gets my back up, is people lumping me with them, or telling me how to think, or that i must see things in a certian way, for example, ive had a few recent arguments that i MUST identify as a transexual female, because just identifying as a girl is a lie, and im going from one closet to another. (what the *fruitcage* ever) I dont belive peoples personal identificaitions or need is under question, but ->-bleeped-<- politics are... and they are more prejudicial than transphobes...

AsianGurlee: cheers for the neg rep, 'things ive said are mean'? did seeing reality upset you that much?

If I tell people that it peeves me when other people try to force their views on me, I would not consider it very good form to do the same thing to them in the next paragraph.

so where did i force a view? or is giving a view contrary to the mass seen as forcing thesedays?

Quoteor is giving a view contrary to the mass seen as forcing thesedays

When you give an alternative view to someone else, You are merely giving an alternative view.

When someone else presents an alternative view to you, you respond with they aren't living in reality, or they are trying to force their view on to you. 

This makes it really difficult to have a productive conversation with you.

Jessica

Quote from: Rachael on July 10, 2007, 06:12:13 PM
i completely agree with you Gina, there are many levels of dysphoria, and i totally agree and respect peoples desires, as i wish them to respect mine in return. What gets my back up, is people lumping me with them, or telling me how to think, or that i must see things in a certian way, for example, ive had a few recent arguments that i MUST identify as a transexual female, because just identifying as a girl is a lie, and im going from one closet to another. (what the *fruitcage* ever) I dont belive peoples personal identificaitions or need is under question, but ->-bleeped-<- politics are... and they are more prejudicial than transphobes...

AsianGurlee: cheers for the neg rep, 'things ive said are mean'? did seeing reality upset you that much?

you said this : If you find passing as female is lieing to people, then maybe you arnt a woman if thats how you feel?





I don't think that was called for.

Passing is important to me, and that's my reality, but I will not question someone's gender just because they do not think passing is important, because for others, I can see that passing should not be important or it might even be bad because passing can be pretending to be the "ideal" woman when one shouldn't need to pass on purpose in order to be themselves.


Passing has it's advantage, I know , and I do pass so I have that passing privileges, but I can see that it also has disadvantages. Passing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face. It makes transsexuals invisible, that is problematic for some who feel that being visible is important to advance the recognition of those who are transsexuals.

This obsession about passing is getting really tiresome. Sure, for most passing is important, telling people how well I pass is not, it's really superficial, unless I can impart some help to newbies about what I did to pass. Stealth and passing are pretty irrelevant in my world because "passable" transwomen are respected as much or more than genetic women or stealth transsexuals.

Passing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face. It makes transsexuals invisible, that is problematic for some who feel that being visible is important to advance the recognition of those who are transsexuals.

[/quote]


I found this topic most interesting as passing is important to me even if I don't do it very well. Yes to some extent passing does make us invisible but isn't the point of having gender dysphoria or GID to be on the outside what you are on the inside? To be the girl/woman we are?

In my psychological assessment the other day I was told I needed another person that I could confide in and talk things through with (I seriously have no one). I said I had no one and then the psychologist spoke of the self help groups they have at the clinic. I said I would not want to sit with men in wigs. Sorry don't want to be seen as awful in saying that, my point is that society (said already) do not accept men in wigs as women and will never do that. I suppose I want to identify as a woman to others, (god I know I have a long way to go). I do identify myself as a woman and a man in a wig just does not cut it even with me. So if passing means being invisible as far as someone who is transgender then I will have to disappear.

Just my ramblings of a nutty woman.

hugs and kisses

Nigella

     

Regina: I am the one one who said this

Passing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face. It makes transsexuals invisible, that is problematic for some who feel that being visible is important to advance the recognition of those who are transsexuals.






During pride , I was thinking how I don't like drag queens because people lump the drag queens and the not very passable transsexuals into the same basket. I understand how you might not want to sit with "men in wigs" and the need to be treated and perceived as a woman.

I understand that how it feels, but I am just saying that a normal cisgender woman would not mind being around drag queens or men in wigs, so why should we care so much about how we are seen?

I want to be perceived as a *normal* girl, and I know how nice it is not to think about transsexualism and just live a *normal* life, but I don't think we can tell others what their goals are just because they are transsexuals.

Maybe someone's past is important to them, and being a transsexual is important to their identity because it helps to connect them with the past, maybe being around trans people and helping them is important for their own sake. We help ourselves when we help others, and if we know how hard it is to transition, maybe we would want to offer our help to others as well, why else do post op transsexuals still visit this forum?

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Nothing makes me annoy more when someone said ..."I am straight but I am for gay rights." When someone says that, the first thing that comes to my mind is why are straight people so afraid to be thought of as gay? Why do we care? We shouldn't, because believe it or not, saying that we don't want to associate with other people because we don't want to be perceived as being similar to them is just reinforcing prejudices and a hierarchal society. 

I think it is a kind of a defeatist attitude, but that's' just my "reality."

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 02:05:02 PM

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Asiangurliee

Thank you for helping me here. I have been conscious of wanting to blend in and not be noticed. I was the one that said after my psychiatrist said about the self help groups that I did not want to sit with a bunch of men in wigs (that related back to what Regina had said).

because at the moment I don't blend that well at that particular clinic I did get people turn around and look at me. I that felt embarrassed. Next time I go I will not care what others think and if they want to speak while I wait for my appointment then so well and good if not, well, they will have lost out.

hugs and kisses

Nigella

QuotePassing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face.

So true!

I'm Jewish, and have lived most of my life in non-Jewish areas. Consequently, I've often been in situations where someone might say something anti-semitic, not necessarily realizing that anyone Jewish was hearing it. In those situations, I'm "passing" as white, who I truly am is invisible, unless I make a conscious choice to speak out, which I do.

From the beginning when I transitioned, I felt similar connections in being trans and being Jewish. Passing perpetuates our oppression. I totally understand the need to pass, especially considering potential dangerous situations, and I respect anyone's choice to do so. But to me, it's important to live in truth of who I am, and not hide my history.

QuoteNothing makes me annoy more when someone said ..."I am straight but I am for gay rights."

I agree it is unfortunate that we might not be able to eliminate oppression alone, that people won't take our causes seriously, until the straight world also stands up and says, discrimination is wrong. That being the case, I'll take all the allies I can get, be they glbt or straight.

zythyra

Quote from: Nigella on July 14, 2007, 03:16:39 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 02:05:02 PM

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Thanks for reading my post! I am not saying anyone has to write transsexual on their forehead, but one shouldn't have to go out of their way to avoid drag queens or not very passable trans people.

If we really want to be *normal*, than we shouldn't be so afraid of being seen for who we are and associate with whoever we want, that might probably help with *passing* too, acting natural around *all* people.

Quote from: regina on July 14, 2007, 04:18:14 PM

Quote from: Ell on July 14, 2007, 01:16:47 PM
yeah. but also, those of us who are currently in the androgynous phase of transition -- so what? i know i look weird. but if you don't like how i look, too bad! i feel so much better even at this stage, that no one's going to stop me.

and as for crossdressers, who often get a bad rap, i have lots of respect and gratitude for them. they were the ones who really introduced me to the concept of transexualism. while i feel quite different from them because i want the body much more than the clothes, still, they are psychologically every bit as much of a girl as any ts i've ever met.

Eli, please read my post again and try not to project onto it. I never said anything negative about non-passable people, only that they tend to be treated with less respect in Internet forums, support groups and in the media. I would never suggest that's fair or a good thing. Nor did I say anything negative about crossdressers, I just feel the vast majority of them are coming from a very different place than transpeople and I do find it hard to deal with my own issues while they're often coming from a perspective that doesn't connect much with mine.


Asiangurlee,

As long as society tosses transpeople, straight crossdressers and dragqueens together in the same pot, I feel that discomfort will continue. It's nice to say, 'just ignore it and be yourself,' but when people miscategorize you they are sometimes denying the very core issue issues you're trying so hard to deal with. The vast majority of crossdressers and dragqueens these days view themselves at heart as straight or gay men. That is very different than someone with intense gender dysphoria who identifies or experiences themselves to be female, even though there may be some minor common interests in dealing with presentation or discrimination. I feel that, even though it's not the most evolved behavior to distance oneself from someone else that you feel proximity to inadvertently mislabels you, I feel we all need to cut ourselves a lot of slack and understand we are in an extraordinary situation that will, at least temporarily, express extraordinary emotions and sensitivity. We should all do what we need to do to get through this and not harshly judge ourselves.

Gina M.

Very good point. It's hard to transition, and we need to do what we need to do make ourselves feel as comfortable as we can. I just don't want to separate myself from others and indirectly reinforce to the gender binary, something I don't believe in , although I am a female but I like gender diversity and taking gender too seriously is an entrapment for all of us who live in this society and I do not want passing to be an essential issue for our safety and otherwise. I just want to feel free and I will support causes that encourage diversity because I know it benefits me in the end, no matter who I am. 

I find passing very difficult, anymore.

It was much easier when I had my '750' than it is with my Plymouth, now.  :o

Rhonda--LOL  :laugh:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 05:19:07 PM

Quote from: regina on July 14, 2007, 04:18:14 PM

Quote from: Ell on July 14, 2007, 01:16:47 PM
yeah. but also, those of us who are currently in the androgynous phase of transition -- so what? i know i look weird. but if you don't like how i look, too bad! i feel so much better even at this stage, that no one's going to stop me.

and as for crossdressers, who often get a bad rap, i have lots of respect and gratitude for them. they were the ones who really introduced me to the concept of transexualism. while i feel quite different from them because i want the body much more than the clothes, still, they are psychologically every bit as much of a girl as any ts i've ever met.

Eli, please read my post again and try not to project onto it. I never said anything negative about non-passable people, only that they tend to be treated with less respect in Internet forums, support groups and in the media. I would never suggest that's fair or a good thing. Nor did I say anything negative about crossdressers, I just feel the vast majority of them are coming from a very different place than transpeople and I do find it hard to deal with my own issues while they're often coming from a perspective that doesn't connect much with mine.


Asiangurlee,

As long as society tosses transpeople, straight crossdressers and dragqueens together in the same pot, I feel that discomfort will continue. It's nice to say, 'just ignore it and be yourself,' but when people miscategorize you they are sometimes denying the very core issue issues you're trying so hard to deal with. The vast majority of crossdressers and dragqueens these days view themselves at heart as straight or gay men. That is very different than someone with intense gender dysphoria who identifies or experiences themselves to be female, even though there may be some minor common interests in dealing with presentation or discrimination. I feel that, even though it's not the most evolved behavior to distance oneself from someone else that you feel proximity to inadvertently mislabels you, I feel we all need to cut ourselves a lot of slack and understand we are in an extraordinary situation that will, at least temporarily, express extraordinary emotions and sensitivity. We should all do what we need to do to get through this and not harshly judge ourselves.

Gina M.

Very good point. It's hard to transition, and we need to do what we need to do make ourselves feel as comfortable as we can. I just don't want to separate myself from others and indirectly reinforce to the gender binary, something I don't believe in , although I am a female but I like gender diversity and taking gender too seriously is an entrapment for all of us who live in this society and I do not want passing to be an essential issue for our safety and otherwise. I just want to feel free and I will support causes that encourage diversity because I know it benefits me in the end, no matter who I am. 

i find this funny, because i entirely concur with what has been said here...
the problems are with societys view of trans, as the obvious ->-bleeped-<-s and dragqueens, IE, crossdressers and TVs, who contain a large proportion who id as male. (or female for drag kings) and this is taken by a visually influenced public as being how 'trans' folk are. This lumping creates the divide, i fear that most dont know transexuals have gender dysphoria, and just 'like dressing up' so much they do it permanently. ive suggested in the past Transexuals and intersex folk transitioning should be divided off from the TG umbrella, (infact anyone suffering GID enough to require changing thier visible gender. because if we dont, then acceptance wont come from the right direction, there needs to be a medical emphasis, once people realise we have a problem, and understand this is the cure, they will treat us differently, not just accept what were doing, they will not even bring it into question. the same way as people treat a person with cancer, thier the person first, disease second.

I agree with you.

But I really question if people *want* to differentiate the difference between transsexuals and drag queens. It may be that they seriously *do* think transsexuals are just committed drag queens , a lot of people discriminate against transsexuals because they honestly choose to and they honestly choose to NOT be educated about the issue, it doesn't matter how much separation we choose to have, and beside, there will always be more separation , like the pre op and the post op.

I don't think separation is the key to acceptance. I think the key to acceptance or tolerance is to question why people are so offended at the idea of people who challenge the gender binary in general (I know a lot of transsexuals don't consider themselves to be challenging the gender binary, but I think the public views anyone who transition from their birth sex to be breaking the gender *rules*)

So, I don't know. I know I am all over the place, but I just think people are bigots because they want and choose to be, not because of what we ourselves do and who we associate with.

Do you think if they can prove that being gay is not a choice, and it is a hormonal or genetic thing, people will start approving homosexuality?

No, a lot of people just won't accept something because they want to be prejudicial.

I think we would be falling to the "divide and conquer" tactic if we do not try to be inclusive in our own community.


There is nothing wrong with playing or changing your gender, plain and simple. It doesn't mean we are all the same, but it means that the current gender binary is not inclusive and that's what we should be challenging. I know it might be tempting to say "but your condition is serious, it is not for fun!", we can still make that distinction but I don't think separating ourselves into our own little group would make us more accepted. 

nope, this is a game of politics, and social engineering, not whats right and wrong.
people dont challenge ->-bleeped-<-s cos they want to, they do cos they belive thier right... prove them wrong, and they look silly.

i think differentiating will get transexuals accepted faster. then expand the ideas. point is. we can make people agree with us, and still think thier right, by showing them we arnt homosexuals, or drag queens.... they belive in medicine? well we have amedical problem, these facts arnt usually put out much, and the obvious folk being dqs, or gay, doesnt help...

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 03:53:46 PM
nope, this is a game of politics, and social engineering, not whats right and wrong.
people dont challenge ->-bleeped-<-s cos they want to, they do cos they belive thier right... prove them wrong, and they look silly.

i think differentiating will get transexuals accepted faster. then expand the ideas. point is. we can make people agree with us, and still think thier right, by showing them we arnt homosexuals, or drag queens.... they belive in medicine? well we have amedical problem, these facts arnt usually put out much, and the obvious folk being dqs, or gay, doesnt help...

You can't prove anyone is wrong with science.

Why do you think so many people still believe in creationism even if the science suggests otherwise? Not to mention it is impossible to really have 100 percent proof that someone is born in the wrong body. ( I don't think so anyways)

Many people will still continue to disagree with homosexuality and think that gays should refrained fro same sex activity even if it is prove beyond a doubt that being gay is not a choice. 

one cannot proove or disprove, the world is infinate, one can simply make very significant suggestions in one direction or another. we must simply suggest harder.

Trouble is there will always be jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s claiming to speak for us all, you can't silence them and nor should you really.

Tbh I think the more unpassable people there are in the public eye the easier it is for me to pass as I look nothing like them. That's a totally selfish point of view but it's also pragmatic as I don't have the power to stop people doing what they like as i'd be hypocritical if I did.

/me passes maud the anti jerry springer ->-bleeped-<- shotgun.

i agree maud, sometimes false steriotypes help the whole commuinity, as few are like these 'jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s'

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 12:26:56 PM
...
i find this funny, because i entirely concur with what has been said here...
the problems are with societys view of trans, as the obvious ->-bleeped-<-s and dragqueens, IE, crossdressers and TVs, who contain a large proportion who id as male. (or female for drag kings) and this is taken by a visually influenced public as being how 'trans' folk are. This lumping creates the divide, i fear that most dont know transexuals have gender dysphoria, and just 'like dressing up' so much they do it permanently. ive suggested in the past Transexuals and intersex folk transitioning should be divided off from the TG umbrella, (infact anyone suffering GID enough to require changing thier visible gender. because if we dont, then acceptance wont come from the right direction, there needs to be a medical emphasis, once people realise we have a problem, and understand this is the cure, they will treat us differently, not just accept what were doing, they will not even bring it into question. the same way as people treat a person with cancer, thier the person first, disease second.

While I agree that transsexuals and intersex people are a completely different thing than crossdressers or drag queens, I also know that many crossdressers do suffer from GD. In fact it is not clear whether or not transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s suffer from different degrees of the same thing. While some crossdressers are clearly sex fetishists, many others talk of this overwhelming need to express their "inner woman". Now, dragqueens I don't get at all, because I have only talked to a couple. I don't understand their motivation for basically mocking women or why this would be attractive to someone who is attracted to other males. Anyway, here is what Harry Benjamin had to say about it.

Quote from: Dr Harry BenjaminThe Transsexual Phenomenom
...
Coming back to the differences between transvestism and transsexualism., another simpler and more unifying concept and a corresponding definition may have to be considered. That is, that ->-bleeped-<-s with their more or less pronounced sex and gender indecision may actually all be transsexuals, but in varying degrees of intensity.

A low degree of largely unconscious transsexualism can be appeased through cross-dressing and demands no other therapy for emotional comfort. These are ->-bleeped-<-s (Group 1).

A medium degree of transsexualism makes greater demands in order to restore or maintain an emotional balance. The identification with the female cannot be satisfied by wearing her clothes alone. Some physical changes, especially breast development, are requirements for easing the emotional tension. Some of these pa

tients waver between transvestitic indulgences and transsexual demands for transformation (Group 2).

For patients of a high degree of transsexualism (the "true and full-fledged transsexual"), a conversion operation is the all-consuming urge, as mentioned earlier and as a later chapter will show still more fully. Cross-dressing is an insufficient help, as aspirin for a brain tumor headache would be (Group 3).

It must be left to further observations and investigations in greater depth to decide whether or not transvestitic desires may really be transsexual in nature and origin. Many probably are, but the frequent fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s may have to be excluded.

If these attempts to define and classify the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.
...

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm#Are%20all%20->-bleeped-<-s%20transsexuals?

I also don't understand this need to avoid "men in wigs". I wear a wig because I am going bald which really ruins my own image of myself as a woman. Like many women who wear wigs for a whole variety of reasons, if done right, one can't tell it's a wig. I presume this was most likely just a metaphor for "unpassable transsexuals", although I can't be certain. I mean, what happened to judging people by the "content of their character"? Can one be so certain that they can not benefit from someone because of their outward appearance?

I mean, are we just talking about bigotry here? We can't even cut transsexuals who need a wig, some slack? I mean, does it make them bad because the testosterone in their body destroyed their hair? Is this just saying, "I don't hang with ugly people"? I am really struggling to understand this. Is it a fear of being outted by someone who is clearly transsexual?

I don't have a "cause", I am not an ambassador for the transsexual community. I am a human being trying to live my life. Can't we get past bigotry and say to society that there are people who feel a different gender than their body and if you see one, treat them as the gender they desire to be? Even if they are not passable. Cut them a break? I mean, I know there will always be bigotry but let us not forget that it used to be illegal to crossdress, there was no such thing as GRS/SRS, interracial marriage was illegal, homosexuality was illegal. The attitudes of society can be changed, but how can we ask society to accept anyone as long as we ourselves have our own bigotry? As long as one person is devalued because of their gender expression, we are all susceptible to discrimination. I think we have to get past the reason someone dresses or expresses themselves the way they do and just accept we are all different and devalue no one.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Rachael on July 17, 2007, 04:57:08 PM
/me passes maud the anti jerry springer ->-bleeped-<- shotgun.

i agree maud, sometimes false steriotypes help the whole commuinity, as few are like these 'jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s'

I personally blame Jerry Springer. Anyone with money and celebrity status and their own tv show can find some desperate, poor, or attention seekers to exploit.

The blame is mostly on people like Jerry Springer, who has no ethics and uses his fame, money and status to exploit those who are not as fortunate.

I would blame the people who watch Jerry Springer, there is also Maury, who is just as bad or worse, unfortunately these freak shows  get ratings and it wasn't Springer or Maury, there would be someone else. With or without the Springer type shows, bigotry would still exist though. Even so-called liberals make fun of people like Anne Coulter because she has an Adam's Apple, calling her "Anne the Man" Most men are very insecure about their sexuality and transsexuals force them to confront their demons.

hey, we transitioned just so we can convert these poor defenseless straight men and turn them gay, where have you been?  :angel: