Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm starting to wonder just to what extent it even exists. I've been gendered correctly almost all the time over the last 7 months, and frankly...I really have not seen a change in how anyone relates to me. Granted, I'm a rather weak looking little man and by no means a "man's man." But the only thing that has changed for me, in terms of how people treat me, is instead of "ma'am", "girl", I get "sir", "man", "dude." And I think people look at me less often, but I never really considered anyone looking at me as a girl to be a problem - never really got the "pervert's eyeball" cause I dressed in male clothes. they only ever bothered me when you could tell they were giving me a dirty look for holding hands with a girl. But even that was uncommon, and it never bothered me because as far as I was concerned, if they couldn't know love when they saw it, they must lead sad, pathetic lives and that was their punishment lol.

I can't say I really yearned for male privilege, but I hear people talk about it a lot and I just don't see it. Could I be just a privileged person in general (white, middle-class, Christian upbringing) to the point where I simply went from a privileged female to a privileged male and the difference is minimal?

Hmm that's interesting Caleb.

I think male privelage is real but it's something men are conditioned with over their lifetime. Same thing with female privelage-if I wasnt born with it I might not know how to work it.   ;)

I think you might also be on to something about being privelaged in other ways.

Either way thanks for sharing!   :D

Everyone has a certain extent of privilege in any given "exclusive" circle. When I was living a woman I could get away with always dressing casual, I always had friends willing to help do hard labor, I could get away with a certain amount of abrasive behaviors and so on.

As male I have to adhere to very different standards. People expect that I am more than physically tough enough (despite being a fairly femme guy), I have to wear shirts and ties (no more cute tshirts at the office) and even my jewelry is considered a no-no. I have seen the difference most in the work place.

Interesting point.

I think you notice things you lose rather than subtle acceptance. I have readily noticed how males treat me as 'not one of them' rather than anything else. In my opinion, and just for discussion, men don't treat themselves as equals, more as different from women. So male privilege is far more in treating woman and children as different people rather than in some sort of 'male club' yes as Ayden said there is an understanding that you will fit in with other men, but it is more of not fitting in with women. Hence feminine men tend to be distrusted by other males.

Most men (a generalization) don't readily accept men who fit outside of the ideal man type of image. While most women readily accept their ability to fit in as they wish, rather than to conform to a standard. Hence the sort of comment: "I'm a woman, I will wear what I like and you will treat me with respect". As an example.

I'm not sure if I have explained that well.

Oh, so perhaps it is just because You are oblivious to Your male privilege? :) :) :) They say that biggest male privilege is not being aware that it exists... :) Does that remind of something, huh? :) :) :)

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on December 17, 2013, 03:51:31 AM
Oh, so perhaps it is just because You are oblivious to Your male privilege? :) :) :) They say that biggest male privilege is not being aware that it exists... :) Does that remind of something, huh? :) :) :)

Caleb or I? I agree with both views BTW. I don't feel I lost anything, I'm interested in what guys obtain.

A mirror of my ex life?

Nice topic as I said.

Quote from: Cindy on December 17, 2013, 04:04:07 AM
Caleb or I? I agree with both views BTW. I don't feel I lost anything, I'm interested in what guys obtain.

A mirror of my ex life?

Nice topic as I said.

Caleb, of course :)

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on December 17, 2013, 03:51:31 AM
Oh, so perhaps it is just because You are oblivious to Your male privilege? :) :) :) They say that biggest male privilege is not being aware that it exists... :) Does that remind of something, huh? :) :) :)

It may be less that Caleb is oblivious to male privilege and more that he's not taking it. Being oblivious to it is part of the answer, but a trans man just seems so much less likely to engage in microaggressions toward women. Maybe he can learn that over time ;). Caleb, maybe you've seen it with groups of men you hang out with? For instance, one guy (the day he found out I'm trans... but before I told him) pointed out a car driving by and said "he's driving a bitch's Porche." Misogyny is at the heart of male privilege and serves to keep people in line with masculinity.

It is an intangible. You can't bank on it, assume you'll get more and bigger raises just because you're a man. It does happen, but you probably wouldn't notice. Again, with masculinity, the more you take and the more you fit into that male mold, the more privilege you get.

That doesn't mean you have to give in to misogyny... but it also doesn't mean you have to stand up against it. That's up to you - it's a choice between fitting in and having privilege and being a male feminist. I was always the latter and I still know I took part in microaggression (lighter talk, in jest or just fitting in more than anything). Most women expect it of men, really. That isn't to say it's right and can't be changed, but it is how our current society works.

The way I've seen male privilege play out is in the "permission" many men seem to believe it grants them  to treat women as second class. It's "OK" to ignore them, talk down to them, cut them off, disregard their opinion, talk over the top of them, treat them like sexual objects, degrade them, etc. Not all men, and not always at 100% but there are frequently elements there. From an early age many boys believe they are better than girls, that girls are weak and sissy...that attitude is pretty entrenched by adulthood. Some feminists refer to it as the patriarchy as if it were some great big exclusive club, but there is no obvious induction it's just something that's learnt throughout childhood and early adulthood.

Is male privilege misogyny?

Oh dear.

Guys please!

Quote from: Cindy on December 17, 2013, 05:32:10 AM
Is male privilege misogyny?

Oh dear.

Guys please!

Yes. Yes it is.
Misogyny is not a female issue... it has as profound and damaging effect on men as on women. Privilege is seated firmly in discrimination... it doesn't just come from nowhere.


And yes... there are female, cis, and even trans privileges.

As all my students insist, or is it the other way?


Proof.  :-*

It's a feedback loop. They cause each other by their own propagation.
You can help remove privilege with policy.
You can help remove misogyny with awareness.
Neither are immediately solvable.

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 17, 2013, 05:25:14 AM
The way I've seen male privilege play out is in the "permission" many men seem to believe it grants them  to treat women as second class. It's "OK" to ignore them, talk down to them, cut them off, disregard their opinion, talk over the top of them,treat them like sexual objects, degrade them, etc.

That behavior is not just reserved for women Grace. As a former member of the submissive feminine beta male club I experienced it often, which is why as I transition to female I'm already somewhat used to being treated this way.

As an example yesterday in a meeting an aggressive male member of our team was strongly questioning some work I had done, and was generally trying to take over and run a project that I'm responsible for. His lack of respect for me is palpable. After the meeting a woman that I happen to know has a very strong issue with men running over her and is on the same team approached me and she had seen what was going on, thought that *I* was being run over, and thought that I needed to speak to my boss about it. And she was probably right. Of course I couldn't tell her that I was NOT a guy and acting all aggressive is totally against my nature.

Quote from: Eva Marie on December 17, 2013, 07:02:07 AM
Of course I couldn't tell her that I was NOT a guy and acting all aggressive is totally against my nature.

Did You mean that acting aggressive is against Your nature because You are Yourself, or rather that it was against Your nature because You are not a guy? I am curious, because I know many women who, while being nice and polite in everyday life, yet have no issues to stand their ground in those kind of interactions which You just mentioned. I would not describe them as being all aggressive, but they surely know how to put someone (irrespective of gender) in his/her place - providing that the person is seriously asking for it.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on December 17, 2013, 07:27:23 AM
Did You mean that acting aggressive is against Your nature because You are Yourself, or rather that it was against Your nature because You are not a guy? I am curious, because I know many women who, while being nice and polite in everyday life, yet have no issues to stand their ground in those kind of interactions which You just mentioned. I would not describe them as being all aggressive, but they surely know how to put someone (irrespective of gender) in his/her place - providing that the person is seriously asking for it.

Emily -

That's a hard one to figure out for me. Sometimes it seems like that it's both my nature as myself and it's because I'm not an alpha male to be the way I am. My own therapist has recognized this in me and she's the one that first suggested to me that I am submissive. But I see what you are getting at, and I didn't mean to suggest in any way that women are by nature submissive and easily run over. I am certainly that way though  :D

I admire strong women that stand their ground; i think that they are freakin' awesome.

Quote from: Eva Marie on December 17, 2013, 08:22:10 AM
Emily -

That's a hard one to figure out for me. Sometimes it seems like that it's both my nature as myself and it's because I'm not an alpha male to be the way I am. My own therapist has recognized this in me and she's the one that first suggested to me that I am submissive. But I see what you are getting at, and I didn't mean to suggest in any way that women are by nature submissive and easily run over. I am certainly that way though  :D

I admire strong women that stand their ground; i think that they are freakin' awesome.

I think there's a difference between being submissive and deferring to those whose opinions you respect. I am certainly not the former... but I'm very much the latter.

Male privilege is just "benefits" you get for no other reason than you're a man. An example? Well, I'm not sure it's like this in every Country but in the United States one example would be that it's a well known fact that men make more money than women. A woman usually only brings in 77 cents to every dollar a man earns. Is it right? No, it's far from fair.

Have I experienced male privilege? I dunno, people do treat me better in society now that I pass 100% but that is passing privilege which some guys might possibly get confused with male privilege. You know things like people don't give me the "what is that" looks, girls are nicer, guys treat me like any other guy and not something to poke fun about.

Quote from: caleb. on December 16, 2013, 10:01:25 PM

I don't feel I have experience male privelegde more than female. I belive if I have a privilegde then it would more being a white person than being man. to me it seams as male privilegde is more based on a certain kind of man than being a man in general, at least from where I live, had I lived in Saudi arabia it would had been a diffrent story.
-

Quote from: Simon on December 17, 2013, 09:37:37 AM
Male privilege is just "benefits" you get for no other reason than you're a man. An example? Well, I'm not sure it's like this in every Country but in the United States one example would be that it's a well known fact that men make more money than women. A woman usually only brings in 77 cents to every dollar a man earns. Is it right? No, it's far from fair.

Have I experienced male privilege? I dunno, people do treat me better in society now that I pass 100% but that is passing privilege which some guys might possibly get confused with male privilege. You know things like people don't give me the "what is that" looks, girls are nicer, guys treat me like any other guy and not something to poke fun about.

Exactly so, imo. There are privileges that come with being male like the ability to earn more money over your lifetime. However they are added to other privileges you might have like being white, being middle class, being straight, etc. A privilege isn't something you are necessarily aware of having, unless you make yourself aware.

There is also passing privilege. Guys who don't quite look male enough (in society's eyes) aren't going to be treated well. I haven't really lived my life as male but there are some things that I have noticed (men can take up space, women can not. So  on bench, women have to pretzel themselves so that they almost don't exist and men sprawl out).

This has almost nothing to do with being submissive or whatever, but it is social in that other society's have vastly different experiences (I think we can include the US, Europe, and Australia together for this purpose.)

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/11/30-examples-of-male-privilege/


--Jay
--Jay

I agree, I think one of the greatest dangers of privilege is that it becomes invisible to the people who have it. This was especially true for me as a teenager when I assumed that I couldn't have male privilege because I wasn't a cis guy. I didn't realize that my interaction with male privilege was to subconsciously assume I had it, and my presentation was masculine enough that many people treated me like I was a guy despite knowing intellectually that I wasn't. I did all the obnoxious microaggressions against women--talking over women, taking up physical space, assuming that everyone ought to follow my plan, staring a little too long at attractive women on the street--and somehow came to the conclusion that because I was doing it as not-a-guy, it didn't count. Once I started realizing all the ways I was acting with the privilege I didn't realize I had, I started working pretty hard to dismantle all the misogyny I've internalized, but I still have a ways to go.

These days, as my presentation has become more and more masculine, the main difference I've noticed is how more and more people are giving me male privilege in group settings, listening to my ideas more and being less likely to interrupt, but it's subtle enough that I could attribute it to personality differences if I wasn't paying attention and looking at it as part of a broader pattern.

Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 04:24:36 AM
Misogyny is at the heart of male privilege and serves to keep people in line with masculinity.

So true. I think a lot of guys don't feel like they have male privilege because they don't feel like they have power, and that's because masculinity is constructed as something you can lose, something that can be taken away from you. Individual men feel the pressure to conform to standards of masculinity or be called sissies, etc, and because we then don't feel like we individually access the collective power that we hear people saying men have, it becomes hard for us to see where we individually and collectively do have male privilege. (And the pressure men feel to not be a sissy, etc, is deeply rooted in a misogyny that says that to be a woman or to be feminine is somehow lesser.)

Quote from: kabit on December 17, 2013, 06:20:29 AM
Yes. Yes it is.
Misogyny is not a female issue... it has as profound and damaging effect on men as on women. Privilege is seated firmly in discrimination... it doesn't just come from nowhere.


And yes... there are female, cis, and even trans privileges.

Can you clarify what you mean on this one? I'm completely with you on cis privilege being a thing, and I can guess a few of the things you might mean by female privilege, but you lost me with trans privilege.

Quote from: m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=155957.msg1310675#msg1310675 date=1387312170
Can you clarify what you mean on this one? I'm completely with you on cis privilege being a thing, and I can guess a few of the things you might mean by female privilege, but you lost me with trans privilege.

I'm certainly not saying there's much... we can have respect from other trans people. The smaller the minority, the more disperse the group, the less privilege the group has among its constituents. One example is the innate privilege (vice a granted privilege provided by its members) of knowing intimately about both male and female society.

There are also privileges (whether we want them or not) granted us by cis people. One common one is the approved use of family / handicap bathrooms. (This example is fleeting, though - if we were called out for doing it, responding why we're valid users would out us).

Yes, there are good things granted us for being transgender... they're just few and far between -- and usually related directly to gender studies issues.

male privelage isn't freely offered to, or granted all men.  If it is something you want, you must demand it, and command it, by male presence.  Though not all men need or have use for male privelage

Quote from: Oriah on December 17, 2013, 03:15:41 PM
male privelage isn't freely offered to, or granted all men.  If it is something you want, you must demand it, and command it, by male presence.  Though not all men need or have use for male privelage

I'd prefer to say there were different levels of male privilege, some of which all (or most) men can benefit from, depending on the circumstances. Math teachers (both male and female) have been shown to prefer a male's answers and support a male's mistakes, while offering less praise to a female's answer and belittling them further for incorrect answers. The article (which I can't find - this was a number of years ago) was describing how female only math classes removed this misogyny from the teachers.

A feminine man will receive these privileges to a lesser degree, but they will still be provided (at least until you enter The Androgynous Zone).

I have lived it.  For 40+ years, esp in my 40s, I was invisible as a 40+ something not-beautiful woman. I was invisible.  Nobody helped me in stores, even when I needed help.  I was treated as incompetent, despite being intelligent, educated, and well-employed.

Now that I'm male, salesclerks fall over themselves to help me, random strangers strike up conversations with me, and I am treated as intelligent and competent.  And I love it, I will admit it. 

Yes, it does annoy me that women are expected to be submissive and invisible, and it pains me to watch competent women fall into that trap as well.  We should all be worthy because we are all people, and it shouldn't be based on gender.

Well Caleb, I can remember the time when you were not on hormones yet and we were a couple. I remember walking to get lunch after your exam and how we got a lot of dirty looks for appearing as a lesbian couple. Perhaps the looks you no longer get are a privilege in themself.

I've had a different experience. Maybe it's because we live in a very liberal area. I was generally treated better when I looked female.

During my experience living as male, I never quite managed to totally pass.  I would routinely have people say to me, "there's something about you I can't put my finger on, something very female."  I never mastered male body language.  That whole spreading out and taking lots of space thing that someone mentioned just seems really uncomfortable to me.  Even my voice never fully changed (though I did manage to sound like a guy to most people).  So I was one gender nonconforming guy.

Male privilege?  I never experienced it.  I was ignored and invisible during meetings.  My boss (in a profound gesture of male privilege) even fired my secretary without even telling me.  If word had not reached me fairly quickly, I would have just walked in and wondered what happened.  I got smaller raises and bonuses than many of the men and women I worked with.  I could go on. 

Now I'm living female.  And I can just relax.  When I do that I am a highly gender conforming girly girl.  I find people are *much* nicer to me now and I am treated a zillion times better.  I still have to deal with having lost my job for being a trans* spectrum individual.  But other than that, it is safer for me to walk down the street, I am ignored a lot less, and people are much kinder. 

One thing I've read in the literature about male privilege is that it is a misnomer.  Not all males get it.  The ones who get it are the ones who best conform to the narrow social expectations of being a man.  To me it seems like my experience confirms that. 

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing. :) I'm glad you're getting to relax now.

However, I do conform to the social expectations - I'm a very "stereotypical" guy. Not deliberately, it's just my personality. I still don't feel like I'm privileged. I've really had the opposite experience. Strange. Anyone else in New England want to chime in and see if it's a regional thing or if my mind is playing tricks on me?

For what it's worth, I think there are different privileges and different expectations on both sides of the binary.  I never got to experience male privilege during my time trying to live as one.  But I do experience female privileges all the time.