Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've come to the conclusion I'm going to complete my mission of being my self' This is my personal way of doing this. Hopefully if this works out nobody would guess. I've decided though for me it's not important whether people know or not. I was in a coffee house today and this guy came up to me and asked about the wifi. I had my nails done in nice red and some eye pencil on. He came from the back of me and started to ask about the wifi, He saw my nails and the conversation kept getting longer and I realized he was flirting with me . I was pretty obvious trans because with my bra on my breasts are pretty noticeable. I got a kick out of it . I know its not everyone's thing to be open , but what the heck I'm trans I'm beginning to feel theirs absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, it's what I am.

Good for you!  Shame about who and what we are is just not helpful.  Shame is something we can get through and understand but does not have to define our lives.

Chin up, chest out, big smile and have a good time.  Walk with confidence and treat people with respect and we will likely get the same in return.

Yes, open, out and proud.

We worked hard to get this far!

Theirs nothing wrong with it! I know I went through a stage where I was all about being open and proud. Then I realized for me I just wanted to be seen as a woman that's the only label I wanted. And it nearly impossible to seen as a real woman when people know your trans and I just want to be seen and treated as any other woman.

I think it can be a great route to take. Take a look at Lavern Cox. She is extremely out and proud, and does not receive much grief for it. If that is the route that will make you the happiest, then go for it!

There is nothing wrong with being whatever you want. The one thing I would like to point out though is that years from now someone that was out might regret that they were out. As it was said earlier by the other gal she's just a woman and its hard to be just that when everyone knows your not!

Katie

Yes I agree . Being open and proud is fine . I know for me my current job and situation requires a certain amount of hush hush

Nothing 'wrong' with it. It isn't for me. I sometimes feel that out people misrepresent me, but that is another story.

I don't think there's much wrong with it. I've been going out in full girls clothes and I love it, just feels right. I haven't started any HRT yet and some people were looking at me but I didn't care (had some makeup on, have to be pretty you know). Only thing that bugs me is my mom stays at my house to baby sit some and I was wearing my pjs and have my toenails painted, I so wanted her to ask me whats up and she just said my pants looked comfy!

It's a very personal choice & to each his own.

I prefer stealth cos society where I am is harsh. + I don't wanna be discriminated both in jobs & straight men.

Going open and full time was a bit of a bumpy road for me at first, I was scared and nervous and drew some very strange looks, as I got braver with my clothing choices and better with my makeup I realised something....I passed, not so much because of my appearence but more because of my demeaner and confidence, walk the walk and people see what you want them to see, as long as I keep my mouth shut I am pretty much ok these days, roll on voice therapy!!!

:P

Really i wonder how can someones be truly stealth, but well i never see one trans girl  from first world i guess the hormones and surgery can make miracles there. (you know any  person can realice what i am when they see me in person)

There is nothing wrong with being out and open. Where I live I have no choice but to be out. However when I am out in the general public I want to be seen as a woman. Not a trans woman, Just a woman.

I am proud for every obstacle I have overcome, and so are my friends and family.

I'll echo what everyone else has said.  There is nothing with being out and proud if that's what you want.  To be honest, I'd rather have the ability to be as stealth as possible when the time comes.  It's not about shame more than it's about wanting to live my life just like any other girl.  That's been my goal.  Being out is okay, but most people will see transgirls and transgirls instead of just a girl.  If they really don't need to know my past, why must I tell them?   That's just my feeling.  However, if you prefer being out, there is nothing wrong at all with that.  We should all do what's best for us. :)

There's nothing wrong with being out and open about it.
There's also nothing wrong with being a woman and not identifying openly as transgender.

Sure... I'd like to see more of us do the former, but I think it takes a lot of strength and we already are required to be so damned strong.

I will be out and proud. I won't wear it on my chest... but everyone I know personally will know. People I see in public don't need to know unless I want them to.

It's still a long way off, though...... people I see in public already KNOW ;) (If I'm wearing a purse, at least...)

Quote from: Heather on December 17, 2013, 10:03:18 PM
Theirs nothing wrong with it! I know I went through a stage where I was all about being open and proud. Then I realized for me I just wanted to be seen as a woman that's the only label I wanted. And it nearly impossible to seen as a real woman when people know your trans and I just want to be seen and treated as any other woman.

It's my thought that a transgender woman is just as "real" as any woman. Hugs, Devlyn

I have a bizarre double life. 

I do a lot of trans* community work.  It's hard to do that work unless people know I have a trans* spectrum history too.  There is a huge difference in the way trans* people treat you if they know versus if they don't.  I do a lot of education, community building, and advocacy.  I doubt that the trans* community would support any of that, especially the community building, if they did not know that I'm at least somewhere on the spectrum myself. 

But sometimes it's nice to not be "on" having to do that work.  People of both trans* and not trans* persuasions seem to very often find me rather intriguing once they know that I'm somewhere on the spectrum (don't ask me why; you will have to ask them).  So the moment someone finds out, I end up back in education, community building, and advocacy mode. 

As a consequence, in my social life I do not disclose and I tend to be very stealth.  I very openly masquerade as a strong, very engaged ally.  But I don't disclose that I'm anywhere on the spectrum myself.  And I tend to socialize with a very different group of people from the ones I work with. 

What's wrong with being open and proud?
Not a thing.  But it is not the way that works best for some people sometimes. 

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 18, 2013, 08:45:56 AM
It's my thought that a transgender woman is just as "real" as any woman. Hugs, Devlyn

Its just a mind set thing if you see yourself as something different from other women you'll be different from other women. Once I started seeing myself as a woman and stopped thinking of myself as a trans woman my outlook on life improved. And I was talking from a societal point of view once people find out they treat you totally different than what they do when your just any other woman. I know this from experience. ;)

In my experience, "open and proud" women are among the happiest with their transitions. Our community needs people like you, to show how intelligent and competent transgender People can be.

Quote from: Heather on December 18, 2013, 10:27:44 AM
Its just a mind set thing if you see yourself as something different from other women you'll be different from other women. Once I started seeing myself as a woman and stopped thinking of myself as a trans woman my outlook on life improved. And I was talking from a societal point of view once people find out they treat you totally different than what they do when your just any other woman. I know this from experience. ;)

I work on this every day. The hardest thing? When I talk about myself in the 3rd person (not often, but I've got kids) it's always with male pronouns. That hurts more than anyone else using them and I realize how hard it is to change that mindset. I've had 35 years of thinking myself as "he" and "him." I always correct myself.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 18, 2013, 11:08:45 AM
In my experience, "open and proud" women are among the happiest with their transitions. Our community needs people like you, to show how intelligent and competent transgender People can be.

Thanks for giving me (even more) hope!! ♥

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 18, 2013, 11:08:45 AM
In my experience, "open and proud" women are among the happiest with their transitions. Our community needs people like you, to show how intelligent and competent transgender People can be.

And in your experience, how happy are those who are in deep stealth, i.e. the ones you don't 'see' or are 'invisible'? There are trade-offs either side. Of course there's nothing wrong being 'open and proud', it's just not for everyone.

Quote from: kabit on December 18, 2013, 11:24:07 AM
I work on this every day. The hardest thing? When I talk about myself in the 3rd person (not often, but I've got kids) it's always with male pronouns. That hurts more than anyone else using them and I realize how hard it is to change that mindset. I've had 35 years of thinking myself as "he" and "him." I always correct myself.

It comes with time as you get further in transition the way you see things changes. I've learned in the last year that transitioning is just as much mental change as it is a physical change. Now I wasn't saying being a out and proud trans woman was wrong but as you get further along in transition your perspective changes and you start seeing yourself as just another woman once you start living as one.
I think I've been very lucky that I knew from a early age so I never really identified as a male. So I didn't have that hurdle to overcome but I'm sure you'll overcome it once you get further along and start to live as yourself. 

Perhaps a way to illustrate the topics of out vs. keeping your mouth shut is consider the number of trans people that have not had surgery and the ones that have.

How many post op women are out? How many are activists? How many walk around telling people they are trans? I know I know there are some but I submit to you that the overwhelming majority just fade into society. Come to think of it many are not even involved in the trans community.

So back to that wisdom thing. Its very easy to be out when your involved in the trans community and your different because you have not had surgery. It is also very easy to just be a woman once you have had surgery. Of course if you ran your mouth a lot before you had surgery then its hard to be a woman when everyone knows.

Bare in mind a very small amount of people actually get SRS so my words are focused on them only.

Katie

Heather you are a helpful sister!  I am often amazed by those that seem so certain how life will turn out for them after or during transition.  This feels like an abbreviated new puberty for me and some of the things I was once so sure of are giving way to the reality of my first year being out full time.

Experience is a challenging way to learn but allows for us to evolve along the way.

Actually Katie I find it is challenging to be out and involved with the trans community and activism but well worth it.  I have given up on predicting the future for others.  Neither you nor I really know what's between someones legs and that seems a crude definition of being a woman.

I would draw a distinction between those who pass and those who don't rather than those who have had any particular surgery versus those who have not.  Relatively few who pass are out and open about being anywhere on the trans* spectrum, regardless of whether they have had SRS.  Those who don't pass, on the other hand, have little choice about being out or not.  Again, regardless of whether they have had SRS.

SRS itself is something that gets a huge amount of importance in many people's minds.  I am not knocking that because for some it truly is the end-all-be-all, for others it is irrelevant, and for most it's somewhere between those extremes.  And that's fine.  But in terms of blending in day to day, its importance is relatively low because it affects body parts that are or ally covered. 

And of course the above is only in response to mtf spectrum SRS.  For ftm spectrum individuals, the question of "what surgery do you mean?" gets all the more complex.  Mastectomy, for example, affects a persons blend ability a whole lot more than phaloplasty because it affects something visible and alleviates the need to bind, which eliminates the need to choose between breathing and passing. 

I'm confused on how srs is necessary for passing or stealth.   Most people are not going to see your genitals. Yeah, you can be stealth afterward srs but you can also be stealth beforehand.   I'm planning on being as stealth as possible once I go full time,  but I'll never have the luxury of being totally stealth.  The fact is my family,  friends and coworkers have seen my changes and will continue to witness them.  There is no hiding from them because I'm early in my transition.  But I don't plan on telling anyone in the future.   And my involvement in the trans community is limited to this site where I can share things anonymously without making my name or appearance public.   It will never be total stealth, but i think I'll be okay.

I sorry if this offends anybody but every time I hear somebody bragging about being post-op, it reminds me how men brag about the size of their penis.  ::) How many women go around bragging about what's between their legs?  ;)

Quite a few, haven't you been reading the threads?  :laugh:  :laugh:

Nothing wrong with being out and proud, everyone should live their life as they see fit, not by how others are living theirs.

Quote from: Heather on December 18, 2013, 02:56:48 PM
I sorry if this offends anybody but every time I hear somebody bragging about being post-op, it reminds me how men brag about the size of their penis.  ::) How many women go around bragging about what's between their legs?  ;)

I can understand being proud about reaching a goal and having fully gotten there, but I don't understand why some use it to distinguish themselves as superior than pre-ops or non-ops.  One of my best friends is post op and she is nothing other than supportive, helpful and understanding to someone like me who is just starting out.  Yeah, she made it through and has a lot to be happy and proud about, but she doesn't treat me as any less of a women for starting out where she once was.  Most post-ops are like that, so I hate the surgery wars that seem to be spreading on the site as of late.  It's bizarre. 

It's a cycle, hon. Once enough of the post op elitists gather together, they do this. It's ugly, but predictable. Stick around and you'll witness it time after time. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: learningtolive on December 18, 2013, 02:42:15 PM
I'm confused on how srs is necessary for passing or stealth.   Most people are not going to see your genitals. Yeah, you can be stealth afterward srs but you can also be stealth beforehand.   I'm planning on being as stealth as possible once I go full time,  but I'll never have the luxury of being totally stealth.  The fact is my family,  friends and coworkers have seen my changes and will continue to witness them.  There is no hiding from them because I'm early in my transition.  But I don't plan on telling anyone in the future.   And my involvement in the trans community is limited to this site where I can share things anonymously without making my name or appearance public.   It will never be total stealth, but i think I'll be okay.

Quite obviously, SRS is not required to pass or to be stealth. But SRS does permit a further level of stealth, if it's something one wishes to pursue. I'm open to my close family and some medical practitioners. Being proud doesn't compute.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 18, 2013, 03:12:18 PM
It's a cycle, hon. Once enough of the post op elitists gather together, they do this. It's ugly, but predictable. Stick around and you'll witness it time after time. Hugs, Devlyn

But why? Do they all forget that there was a time that they started their transition?   Do they not remember how much time, money and effort transitioning takes? Seriously,  some act like every thing should be accomplished over one night and that you're a fake for not doing that. Hell, I'm jealous if it was like that for some but most of us don't go through that.  Realistically,  srs won't be possible for me until 2015 and probably not 2016 for financial reasons.   I'd love an opportunity overnight transition but it's not in my cards and it was the same way for my post op friend.  So, why judge those who are younger or started at a different point? For the record,  most post ops that I know aren't like that and many have been inspirational and helpful to me.  It's just weird.

Quote from: Heather on December 18, 2013, 02:56:48 PM
I sorry if this offends anybody but every time I hear somebody bragging about being post-op, it reminds me how men brag about the size of their penis.  ::) How many women go around bragging about what's between their legs?  ;)

I don't get the "trannier than thou" thing either.  Must one validate themselves by invalidating others?  Women with grace don't brag at all.

Quote from: Nicolette on December 18, 2013, 03:13:38 PM
Quite obviously, SRS is not required to pass or to be stealth. But SRS does permit a further level of stealth, if it's something one wishes to pursue. I'm open to my close family and some medical practitioners. Being proud doesn't compute.

Sure, but only to those who would see you without clothes.  Other than that, it's not giving you much more of a stealth privilege.   I'm planning on going stealth as soon as I go full time and will continue that once I'm able to have srs.  I don't see why I must wait for srs before going stealth.  Just my opinion.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being open. I'm not open because I don't feel the same way about things as you do, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 18, 2013, 03:34:41 PM
Sure, but only to those who would see you without clothes.  Other than that, it's not giving you much more of a stealth privilege.   I'm planning on going stealth as soon as I go full time and will continue that once I'm able to have srs.  I don't see why I must wait for srs before going stealth.  Just my opinion.

I agree that SRS is not required, as I was pre-op and stealth for many years. But I think one is braver attempting a long-term stealth pre-op, as it can be quite stressful at times.

Quote from: Gene24 on December 18, 2013, 03:42:01 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being open. I'm not open because I don't feel the same way about things as you do, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

And there's no one-size-fits-all approach to being trans.  What works for some people's situations doesn't necessarily work elsewhere.  I think Julia Serano put it best when she said that there is no one way to be trans.   There are as many ways as there are transfolk.

Quote from: Katie on December 18, 2013, 02:09:33 PM
Perhaps a way to illustrate the topics of out vs. keeping your mouth shut is consider the number of trans people that have not had surgery and the ones that have.

How many post op women are out? How many are activists? How many walk around telling people they are trans? I know I know there are some but I submit to you that the overwhelming majority just fade into society. Come to think of it many are not even involved in the trans community.

So back to that wisdom thing. Its very easy to be out when your involved in the trans community and your different because you have not had surgery. It is also very easy to just be a woman once you have had surgery. Of course if you ran your mouth a lot before you had surgery then its hard to be a woman when everyone knows.

Bare in mind a very small amount of people actually get SRS so my words are focused on them only.

Katie

Everybody should use their real life pictures for their avatar on a trans website to prove they are in transition, but the true transsexuals live in stealth and never drew attention to the fact that they were trans while they transitioned?   Ok got it.

Btw, both sides are responsible for any argument, so maybe we can cool it with everybody making one side out to be the enemy.  Especially when there is a straw man on the premises riling everybody up against them.

Quote from: Jen on December 18, 2013, 04:08:19 PM
Everybody should use their real life pictures for their avatar on a trans website to prove they are in transition, but the true transsexuals live in stealth and never drew attention to the fact that they were trans while they transitioned?   Ok got it.

Btw, both sides are responsible for any argument, so maybe we can cool it with everybody making one side out to be the enemy.  Especially when there is a straw man on the premises riling everybody up against them.

I agree that the apparent surgery wars on this site are silly and unnecessary.   There is nothing wrong with being post-op, pre-op or non-op and there is no reason for us to turn on one another.   I'm getting upset with some of the judgement popping up against pre-ops/non-ops and the bitterness that some post-ops are showing on this site as of late, but it doesn't reflect on any community as a whole.

And thank you for pointing out the contradiction.  I'm not going to out myself on a public site to appease anyone, especially those who seem bitter towards new transitioners.  It's ridiculous to believe that one must expose their identity in order to prove they are trans when it's that very kind of thing that makes going stealth harder.

Thinking that as Devlyn put it some people are not reading the posts very well. On top of that they somehow have this crystal ball that allows them to see past what the words are saying and draw strange negative ideas in their heads, finally culminating in all encompassing negativity. I suppose that's why there is therapists, so people can work on these problems.

Oh well. Time for some coffee.

Katie

Quote from: Katie on December 18, 2013, 07:26:35 PM
Thinking that as Devlyn put it some people are not reading the posts very well. On top of that they somehow have this crystal ball that allows them to see past what the words are saying and draw strange negative ideas in their heads, finally culminating in all encompassing negativity. I suppose that's why there is therapists, so people can work on these problems.

Oh well. Time for some coffee.

Katie

Katie, 

Many of us in our everyday life have to deal with people constantly putting us down for our transitions (at least I have with my family).  When we come to a support site, hearing things in various threads like "I can't take someone seriously based on their avatar" or statements that seem to cast doubts on other peoples transitions or whether they really are on hrt can be a little off putting here.  Look, for many of us, it's the one safe place for us to discuss these issues in a world that isn't always understanding.  Hearing things that seem to cast doubt on other members here really sucks when you already have to deal with naysayers all the time in real life.  A support site should be a refuge from that for all of us no matter our transition status or how far into we are.   While I realize you had a successful transition and you found a path that works for you and preach it for others, please try to see where other people are coming from as well.  And I'm not perfect and I'm sure that I may have taken things out of context at times and have been overly senstive; therefore, I apologize if I caused any drama or misinterpreted what you have been saying all along.  To be honest, it wasn't called for and I should have let it go rather than let some of the statements eat me up for the past few days.  For that, I apologize. 

I know I did use my real photo as my avatar photo but recently changed it as well as my profile name. The reason being I'm stealth and don't want anyone googling me and linking me to trans stuff. It may sound bad. But where I love and work it's hard enough getting crap for being black/Cuban. Let all my coworkers find out I spent the first 11 years as a boy and it would make my life a living hell as well as being fired. And the surgery thing in my state sadly is required. They try to stop people who are pre op from using the woman's room in a lot of town. But yes although I have been done with my transition and I'm happily living my life. I do still reach out to others to help. Of course it's behind the scenes . Oh and in my area. They can be mean and toss pre ops in holding cells with men. So mean. That's one of the main reasons I'm pro srs . But out and proud is def not bad. Unless you live in a small minded town with a history of violence against LBGT people

It's such a personal choice really ... and frankly, I think we all have our days of being proud of it ... and days / situations we'd rather no one knew differently.  I feel, if you're in a safe community, open-minded area ... it's pretty okay to be open about things (to a limit ... simply because not everyone wants to know the details of course). But understand, even in open communities you'll always have close-minded people who will easily dismiss you.

Further, while I can see the benefits of being your true self and being open ... and also the benefits of being stealth ... understand that if you choose to be very open with it, there's no going back, especially if you live in a smaller town. Unfortunately, because of prejudice people have ... this can lead to not getting a job, not getting an apartment, or even worse consequences (violence). Although in most states these practices are illegal ... in the majority of states, they aren't. And again, I'd do more research about the state you live in and make sure LGB..T rights are covered. In most states, you just get the LGB rights covered and the trans are to fend for themselves, it's horrible.

Good luck to you and remember that whichever decision you choose ... no one transwoman is ever 100% passable in my experience --- there will always be that one person who knows. Whether that's a good thing, or a bad thing is really up to the context of the situation ... so, do be careful ... but don't feel you can't be yourself :)

Just need to throw in a clarification here. This word stealth is thrown around a lot and I want to be clear here. When I say that at some point usually after SRS one just wants to be seen as a normal woman I dont equate the word stealth to that. It simply means keeping your mouth shut. Not offering to people that your different. If they can tell oh well but that does not mean you admit it or offer that information.

I mean of all the people out there with missing arms or legs or in wheel chairs ect. They dont usually walk around talking about what makes them different. On the contrary they just live thier lives as best they can as any other person might.

Quote from: Katie on December 18, 2013, 10:40:02 PM
It simply means keeping your mouth shut. Not offering to people that your different. If they can tell oh well but that does not mean you admit it or offer that information.

I mean of all the people out there with missing arms or legs or in wheel chairs ect. They dont usually walk around talking about what makes them different. On the contrary they just live thier lives as best they can as any other person might.

I like this clarification. Since I don't talk about being trans with anyone except close friends and family, then I am stealth. And, I am pre-op who just lives her life as any other woman out there.

Quote from: Nicolette on December 18, 2013, 03:43:53 PM
I agree that SRS is not required, as I was pre-op and stealth for many years. But I think one is braver attempting a long-term stealth pre-op, as it can be quite stressful at times.

I agree. I don't know how I'm going to find out how manage but based on my income I will have to :P

Well, i would love to  be stealth and live a girls normal life, but i cant, to mcuh  friends and family, and aniway is easy to say what i am for my voice and my body so no espectation for that even if i start all again in another city.

The one major issue I can see as opposition to this proposition is employment. Many employers are not trans-friendly. Even if they claim to be LBGT friendly... everyone working there, I can guarantee you, does not share all the same values, morales, religious beliefs and ethics. So if you decide to transition on the job, or not change all your legal docs, or even change all docs, but still want to be loud and proud and need to find work... be prepared to deal with the consequences. Many states do not see firing a person simply for being trans as an illegal practice. It happens everyday. Employers can and will do it. It's called the "at will nature of employment". Discrimination in the workplace can be hard to prove and recourse is a long and expensive process. So unless you are independently wealthy, a trust fund recipient, or hit the Powerball... y'all might want to carefully weight all options and possible outcomes before shouting your history and story from the roof tops. It's a very, very, very tough job market out there... even for those with advanced graduate degrees (PhD, MD, JD, MBA) and years of experience in their field... it's tough... trust me... so carefully gauge the current before jumping blindly in to the water. Transitioning and being yourself is important... but so is eating and having a roof over your head.

JennX : The funny thing is, I had the opposite consideration - I have publications, work history, and a Master's degree under my old identity. (I can change the name on the degree, but not the transcript or the publications.) So if I wanted to go completely stealth, I'd have to start entirely over, dumping well over a decade of building a career that I love and am very good at. Luckily, my employer is totally understanding and has been from the beginning.

As for the larger issue, I don't think anything's wrong with it. I don't think anything's wrong with ANY decision people make for their own unique circumstances. Personally, I'm not willing to put in the effort to be either "completely stealth" (including moving away and getting a new career) *or* to be "open and proud" (because I'm too shy to do public activism). So I don't go out of my way to tell people unless it's a situation where I feel like that would help - like talking to another pre-transition trans person, or explaining to a cis person that you can't always tell by looking. Otherwise, unless it comes up in conversation (with me, or gossip by another person about me), no one necessarily will find out.

I think it's so great everyone on Susan's is so open and honest about themselves and their opinions . I know it's helped me so much in thinking about me being transgender. I just came out to myself and a few others recently It was only a couple months ago that my therapist called me transgender and I got a kick out of it. I'm just happy I found this place even though I've said this before.

Kia Ora,

There's nothing wrong with being Out & Proud , just as there's nothing wrong with being Not Out & Proud...

Sadly there are some trans-people who have no option but to be out, so I guess being proud too would go a long way in helping these trans-women cope in society...

Some pros and cons of being out & proud

The possible Pros : For some
Freedom from the fear of 'being found out'
One can be open and honest about who they are (in work and in more intimate relationships)
You know who your 'real' friends are
And if extroverted (one would have to be somewhat extroverted for the proud part to kick in) they will have no shortage of finding themselves the 'centre of attention'

The possible Cons : For some
Always seen as that "trans" woman
Never quite knowing if your lover is only attracted to you because of your 'trans' status
Having to run the social gauntlet of ridicule, rejection, abuse and the possibility of violence-often on a daily bases

No doubt there are many more pros & cons, however these are just a few of the more obvious ones...

I guess it all depend on the individual's mental make-up, and how they can/will adapt to make the best of the situation they find themselves in...

"Different Strokes For Different Folks" "Whatever Floats Ones Boat"

Metta Zenda :)

Some m2f transgdener people undergo SRS, but can not pass easily. Several months ago, the media here reported on an m2f transsexual who did not pass well, causing a fuss here.

http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/08/113_140819.html

The m2f transsexual entered the public bath for female to deliver something to her female friend, without paying the fee for the bath, because she thought it would be very short and temporary. One lady saw her, and suspected that a man is intentionally intruding into the bath for possible crime. She called the police by her cell phone, and the m2f was arrested by the police. And, the intruder was found to have undergone SRS already, but did not change the legal sex, causing legal controversy.

Later, the lady, who called the police, said that she does not want any punishment after realizing that the intruder was m2f transsexual.

I just wondered how much embarrassment, despair, and agony the m2f transsexual went through while being interrogated in the police station. She was unlucky, but also careless.

barbie~~

The main question I asked myself was, what am I ? Do I really want to be a label society made to differentiate me from other women? Shall I be proud of that label? I'm proud to be the person I am, and of course that means an unique woman. We all are unique persons and regardless of what others gives me as a label, I define myself as I feel. So, being proud of who I am is my goal. Loving myself for my uniqueness is what I'm reaching for.
Of course, I don't think is wrong or bad to identify in a way or another, but it's obvious for me that I'm a woman, being born with a difference. But what woman is not born differently. All women are different and they don't seek for a label for theirs difference.
So yeah, I won't judge anyone for theirs choice of defining themselves but I do fight against labels, because they were invented to define who we are, not to respect us for how we are defining ourselves.

Quote from: evecrook on December 21, 2013, 02:52:45 PM
I think it's so great everyone on Susan's is so open and honest about themselves and their opinions . I know it's helped me so much in thinking about me being transgender. I just came out to myself and a few others recently It was only a couple months ago that my therapist called me transgender and I got a kick out of it. I'm just happy I found this place even though I've said this before.

wow, I'm glad I found this place too

just to take the devils advocate point of view, If everyone who is able goes totally stealth how is the hate and the crime ever going to stop against the percentage that need to heal themselves but can't pull off the stealth part. Everybody has the moral and legal right to live there lives the way they prefer to. I'm just curious as to how the disparaging view of the transgender is   going to change. It's up to each of us to make are choices which are neither right or wrong.

Quote from: n/a on December 18, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Nothing wrong with being out and proud, everyone should live their life as they see fit, not by how others are living theirs.

I agree 100% with n/a. That's how I try to live my life.   :)

I was talking to someone in the British trans community the other day about the whole 'stealth' thing, trying to work out how public and out there I should be.

She said, the main thing is to be honest, both with yourself and the world in general. So, yes, you're a woman. But there are lots of types of women: single women, mothers, executive women, women of colour, gay women - tons and tons of different combinations of characteristics. We just happen to be trans-women ... or rather, 'trans' is just one of the adjectives that can be applied to us as women. And it's really healthy to acknowledge that and accept that and own that.

You don't have to go round shouting about it, she said. But you don't want to deny it - to yourself or anyone else - either. And then she told me a story about the dangers of going stealth.

An MTF she used to know had been a successful businessman: intelligent, affluent, and expert at planning and executing important projects. So when she transitioned, she did it really well. She had the best surgery, the best medical help, lovely new clothes - the works. And she came out the other end a beautiful, confident, totally passable woman.

She went totally stealth. Moved house, got a new job ... and fell in love with a great guy, who loved her too. She never told the guy about being trans. Why should she? So far as the world was concerned, she was a "real" woman. When they started living together, she took her stealth to such an extent, she even worked out a menstrual cycle, told him when she was having her period and bought tampons.

The relationship went brilliantly. The guy loved her and she loved him back. In fact, the guy loved her so much, he proposed to her. It was the ultimate trans dream (well, one possible trans dream, anyway - others are available!) - to walk down the aisle in a beautiful wedding dress and become the wife of a wonderful, handsome man.

Except she couldn't do it. She couldn't marry a man without letting him know the truth. It just seemed fundamentally dishonest. But how could she tell him now, after all this time, without making him feel that he'd been lied to and deceived?
Answer: she couldn't. She wracked her brain trying to find the right way to do it, but couldn't come up with an answer. She was stressed, anxious, hyper-tense ... In the end she had a complete nervous breakdown.

She lost her man. She lost her work. She lost it all. And the irony of it all was, if she'd told her guy the truth, when their relationship first became serious, he might very well have accepted her. After all, he loved her.

And that, sisters, is why a little openness, and a lot of pride are a male-to-female transsexual's best friend!

Or so I'm told, anyway ...

Stealth is not really an option though for a long term relationship. In my opinion, and only mine stealth is a double edged sword. It depends on the end goal of the transition. If I wanted to transition, and get married and settle down then I would have to say it, and there would be no stealth. Plus once it's said it can never be taken away. If a relationship ended then who knows who else in town would know my secret if a jilted lover decided to spill the beans out of spite.

Real honest to goodness stealth is a very very quiet and private little life. In this world I don't have to explain my situation to anyone so there is no one to let down. If I want a one night stand, then I can hop in the car, drive a couple of hours away and do whatever I want, without having to worry about wrecking my home base. That's what stealth really looks like. It's not stocking up on tampons and living a lie.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 03, 2014, 09:35:08 AM
Stealth is not really an option though for a long term relationship. In my opinion, and only mine stealth is a double edged sword. It depends on the end goal of the transition. If I wanted to transition, and get married and settle down then I would have to say it, and there would be no stealth. Plus once it's said it can never be taken away. If a relationship ended then who knows who else in town would know my secret if a jilted lover decided to spill the beans out of spite.

Real honest to goodness stealth is a very very quiet and private little life. In this world I don't have to explain my situation to anyone so there is no one to let down. If I want a one night stand, then I can hop in the car, drive a couple of hours away and do whatever I want, without having to worry about wrecking my home base. That's what stealth really looks like. It's not stocking up on tampons and living a lie.

Is that "very very quiet and private little life" enough for you, Zumba? (This is a genuine question, BTW, and asked without a shred of criticism).

I can absolutely see why you live as you do, but don't you ever hanker for the comfort of a deeper, emotional relationship and sharing your life with someone else? And suppose you did find someone you really cared about: would you turn down the chance of a relationship if it meant risking your 'stealth' status?

I ask because I think these are very real, profound questions for transsexual women, and I'm still wondering how I'm going to deal with them myself ...

Quote from: Carlita on January 03, 2014, 09:41:49 AM
Is that "very very quiet and private little life" enough for you, Zumba? (This is a genuine question, BTW, and asked without a shred of criticism).

I can absolutely see why you live as you do, but don't you ever hanker for the comfort of a deeper, emotional relationship and sharing your life with someone else? And suppose you did find someone you really cared about: would you turn down the chance of a relationship if it meant risking your 'stealth' status?

I ask because I think these are very real, profound questions for transsexual women, and I'm still wondering how I'm going to deal with them myself ...

My life is very very rewarding thank you. I have hobbies and activities that I do, some friends but not many, an excellent career, a beautiful home. I am actually surprised at how much out of my shell I have become by my transition. It truly has made me into a much better person who really loves life. That's hard to knock and something that Id rather not jeopardize. My goal in life is to do as many things as possible in my lifetime. But that takes money, which means a career, which means keeping quiet. That's the choice I made. You might be different and that's okay too.

Like I said its up to each person to decide what they want out of life. If your goal is to be Mrs Joe The Plumber and get married settle down to a normal looking life, possible adopt a child and be a live at home mom, then go for it. It might be for you, but not for me. Of course there are all kinds of situations in between as well, that will all involve disclosing to some degree. Like I said, that's where real caution needs to be applied. Once it's said it can never be un-said. Once it's out you might as well assume that it will be spread all over town by the end of the week, because it probably will. People in town may be nice to your face, but behind your back you would be the butt of many jokes and would be a pariah in your own home base.

My transition gave me my freedom to live a life less ordinary and I intend to do that to my dying breath. But that's just me.

Quote from: Carlita on January 03, 2014, 09:20:22 AM
I was talking to someone in the British trans community the other day about the whole 'stealth' thing, trying to work out how public and out there I should be.

She said, the main thing is to be honest, both with yourself and the world in general. So, yes, you're a woman. But there are lots of types of women: single women, mothers, executive women, women of colour, gay women - tons and tons of different combinations of characteristics. We just happen to be trans-women ... or rather, 'trans' is just one of the adjectives that can be applied to us as women. And it's really healthy to acknowledge that and accept that and own that.

You don't have to go round shouting about it, she said. But you don't want to deny it - to yourself or anyone else - either. And then she told me a story about the dangers of going stealth.

An MTF she used to know had been a successful businessman: intelligent, affluent, and expert at planning and executing important projects. So when she transitioned, she did it really well. She had the best surgery, the best medical help, lovely new clothes - the works. And she came out the other end a beautiful, confident, totally passable woman.

She went totally stealth. Moved house, got a new job ... and fell in love with a great guy, who loved her too. She never told the guy about being trans. Why should she? So far as the world was concerned, she was a "real" woman. When they started living together, she took her stealth to such an extent, she even worked out a menstrual cycle, told him when she was having her period and bought tampons.

The relationship went brilliantly. The guy loved her and she loved him back. In fact, the guy loved her so much, he proposed to her. It was the ultimate trans dream (well, one possible trans dream, anyway - others are available!) - to walk down the aisle in a beautiful wedding dress and become the wife of a wonderful, handsome man.

Except she couldn't do it. She couldn't marry a man without letting him know the truth. It just seemed fundamentally dishonest. But how could she tell him now, after all this time, without making him feel that he'd been lied to and deceived?
Answer: she couldn't. She wracked her brain trying to find the right way to do it, but couldn't come up with an answer. She was stressed, anxious, hyper-tense ... In the end she had a complete nervous breakdown.

She lost her man. She lost her work. She lost it all. And the irony of it all was, if she'd told her guy the truth, when their relationship first became serious, he might very well have accepted her. After all, he loved her.

And that, sisters, is why a little openness, and a lot of pride are a male-to-female transsexual's best friend!

Or so I'm told, anyway ...

this is a very good view of the question. It's really a tough decision

Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 03, 2014, 10:57:16 AM
My life is very very rewarding thank you. I have hobbies and activities that I do, some friends but not many, an excellent career, a beautiful home. I am actually surprised at how much out of my shell I have become by my transition. It truly has made me into a much better person who really loves life. That's hard to knock and something that Id rather not jeopardize. My goal in life is to do as many things as possible in my lifetime. But that takes money, which means a career, which means keeping quiet. That's the choice I made. You might be different and that's okay too.

Like I said its up to each person to decide what they want out of life. If your goal is to be Mrs Joe The Plumber and get married settle down to a normal looking life, possible adopt a child and be a live at home mom, then go for it. It might be for you, but not for me. Of course there are all kinds of situations in between as well, that will all involve disclosing to some degree. Like I said, that's where real caution needs to be applied. Once it's said it can never be un-said. Once it's out you might as well assume that it will be spread all over town by the end of the week, because it probably will. People in town may be nice to your face, but behind your back you would be the butt of many jokes and would be a pariah in your own home base.

My transition gave me my freedom to live a life less ordinary and I intend to do that to my dying breath. But that's just me.

I'm really pleased that things have worked out so well for you ... and I totally understand the benefits - particularly the professional benefits - of keeping under the radar. And, yes, you're right - it's a a genie that never goes back into the bottle once it's let out and, yes, people will definitely talk. So I absolutely respect your decision.

But I'd just like to reassure you of one thing ... I can't see myself EVER being Mrs Joe the Plumber! :)

Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 03, 2014, 09:35:08 AM
Stealth is not really an option though for a long term relationship. In my opinion, and only mine stealth is a double edged sword. It depends on the end goal of the transition. If I wanted to transition, and get married and settle down then I would have to say it, and there would be no stealth. Plus once it's said it can never be taken away. If a relationship ended then who knows who else in town would know my secret if a jilted lover decided to spill the beans out of spite.

Real honest to goodness stealth is a very very quiet and private little life. In this world I don't have to explain my situation to anyone so there is no one to let down. If I want a one night stand, then I can hop in the car, drive a couple of hours away and do whatever I want, without having to worry about wrecking my home base. That's what stealth really looks like. It's not stocking up on tampons and living a lie.

Yeah, I see your point.  For me, I really want to settle down, get married, and have kids.  I don't want to be a stay at home mom, but I do want a typical family.  In a way, I feel like at some point I would have to disclose, even if I were post op, because of all the emotions invested.  Again, that's not a judgement on those that don't disclose, but I suspect I couldn't keep this from my partner.  The whole issue is when do you tell and what if things don't work out.  At that point, I suspect stealth is more of an illusion or at least compromised in some form.  It sucks that our lives have to be so complicated because of societal bs. We really shouldn't have to have some much restrictions to just live our lives like any other woman does.  Thanks for your posts because you gave me some food for thought.

There is no one right answer. I do dislike the idea that some promote that out and proud is necessary and the opposite is in and ashamed. I live as female and no one knows unless I choose to disclose. Being trans for me is personal and its no ones business. I would always tell a close friend or potential partner as I changed late in life and keeping up a consistent cover story would just wear on my nerves. I will say that the idea of actually marrying someone and not telling them and going to the extent of buying tampons to fake a period, that does not sit well with me. A partner deserves honesty and that just doesnt seem right.

I am 51 (7 months on HRT) and 6'3". I have no Idea how HRT will affect me but I wish greatly.

Now I am Mtf stealth Trans* in male cloths. What will I look like in 1 year. My hair will be on my shoulders and I will have obvious large breasts. I will not have an option of being a stealth female; I wish I could.

My new HR contact was supper great when I came out to her. Then she said, "it is no-bodies business what you do on your time" during the conversation. I took it as keep quiet and dress male. Perhaps she thinks I can just turn on and off being trans*. I proceed to the wrong bathroom at work at least 1/week when I am not thinking and not in a default bathroom location ( the pics on the door mess me up).  I know I read into the one statement of many welcoming statements. I think she was just supporting me and I am hyper on the subject.

If I dress in female cloths I will be trans at work or on a street. I wish I will be able to blend in at least some times.

My avatar is a sunset and has personal meaning. I will post my pic when I am out in public at work. I was told if I come out at work it must be done well. I took that to be method of delivery and presentation.

If I choose GCS I will lose my wife, which will probable happen anyway. My genitals always felt wrong, hard to explain why, they just do.

I would love to just be me which is my plan. Open, I will have no choice. Proud, I value my identity but proud no. I lied to my wife and I am affecting two lives. Being Trans* was not a choice. Sticking around and transitioning is a choice.  I just hope to enjoy life someday as me.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 03, 2014, 11:16:23 AM
this is a very good view of the question. It's really a tough decision

I should have said this earlier, but thanks, Stephanie, I'm glad I could be of help!

Quote from: amber1964 on January 05, 2014, 04:50:38 PM
There is no one right answer. I do dislike the idea that some promote that out and proud is necessary and the opposite is in and ashamed. I live as female and no one knows unless I choose to disclose. Being trans for me is personal and its no ones business. I would always tell a close friend or potential partner as I changed late in life and keeping up a consistent cover story would just wear on my nerves. I will say that the idea of actually marrying someone and not telling them and going to the extent of buying tampons to fake a period, that does not sit well with me. A partner deserves honesty and that just doesnt seem right.

Thanks Amber.  I agree and similar to the too simplistic binary of male and female there are many ways for us to express our self worth and pride without being on constant display.  Many of us reasonably resent being just another too consuming label and TS/TG can be that.  For folks like me that may have obvious gender markers that are not going to change (like being tall/short, shoulder/hips) we may never be that passable.  Accepting that, i prefer to be out and proud which is not a denigration of others who may wish to be stealth or never identify as trans after transition.  There's plenty of room for all of us here to realize our personal growth and goals.

Quote from: Tessa James on January 06, 2014, 01:53:24 PM
Thanks Amber.  I agree and similar to the too simplistic binary of male and female there are many ways for us to express our self worth and pride without being on constant display.  Many of us reasonably resent being just another too consuming label and TS/TG can be that.  For folks like me that may have obvious gender markers that are not going to change (like being tall/short, shoulder/hips) we may never be that passable.  Accepting that, i prefer to be out and proud which is not a denigration of others who may wish to be stealth or never identify as trans after transition.  There's plenty of room for all of us here to realize our personal growth and goals.

For me to ,I'm older , It would be great if no one thought .I doubt that's going to happen If no one asked I wouldn't go crazy and start a conversation, But at my age It wouldn't make sense to deny or worry about it. I've seen girls pictures on this site where I doubt very much that any body would even come close to think they transitioned. I guess it's a deeply personal decision each one has to deal with.

Its such a personal thing and it takes time to decide what works for you. We all find that place eventually. I remember, when I started living full time I really didnt look so great. Without thinking I went out of my way to out myself, I guess I thought it was better than having someone else do it. Time passed, I began to look better and it was my friend who pointed out to me I didnt need to do that anymore. It didt come all at once but i ended up with a compromise that worked for me.

Any body watch Katie today she had two Trans Beauties CARMEN CARRERA & LAVERNE COX. They are proud and out. Makes me feel great to be trans

If I really look like the gender I intended I wouldnt out myself to only ones I have a relationship and the people who already know me after transition. But I dont really see a problem with being openly trans. Its just something I feel I should not be doing because I have this need to feel legit. Some people may just deny me in their social circles for knowing my trans status.

I don't consider myself out and 'proud' per se but I am very, very out. I feel that, because I'm strong enough to take the flak for it (though there's very little of that) it's a responsibility to make sure that people see a strong, happy, and well-adjusted woman who isn't ashamed to be a transwoman. Being proud of something seems to imply that I take pride in being trans. I don't. If I could flip a switch and be GG, I'd do it in the blink of an eye but I am what I am and my history and perspective are part of who I am and I see no reason to hide that or be ashamed of it in any way.

Another aspect of why I'm 'out' is that it's an opportunity to educate people who may not know what's up with transwomen. I regard myself as very well educated about trans issues, the medical science behind our condition, and the cultural pressures which define our current situation. If I don't share that with people who might not otherwise be exposed to those ideas, then they might go on thinking that we're some kind of perverted child-molesting psychopaths, no matter how many times the talk shows have trans segments.

I've noticed a lot recently if I'm out minding my business no one bothers me. Each time I've gone out its gotten easier. If only I could fast forward laser so a quick trip out didn't require 20-30 minutes of covering my beard and chest with makeup. Getting faster with it at least.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 06, 2014, 05:13:18 PM
I don't consider myself out and 'proud' per se but I am very, very out. I feel that, because I'm strong enough to take the flak for it (though there's very little of that) it's a responsibility to make sure that people see a strong, happy, and well-adjusted woman who isn't ashamed to be a transwoman. Being proud of something seems to imply that I take pride in being trans. I don't. If I could flip a switch and be GG, I'd do it in the blink of an eye but I am what I am and my history and perspective are part of who I am and I see no reason to hide that or be ashamed of it in any way.

Another aspect of why I'm 'out' is that it's an opportunity to educate people who may not know what's up with transwomen. I regard myself as very well educated about trans issues, the medical science behind our condition, and the cultural pressures which define our current situation. If I don't share that with people who might not otherwise be exposed to those ideas, then they might go on thinking that we're some kind of perverted child-molesting psychopaths, no matter how many times the talk shows have trans segments.

I'd just like to say you have a very healthy attitude

I sort of feel the opposite. Very proud of what I have accomplished, it only came with a lot of hard work and sacrifice but not out at all. I also realise I had some decent advantages to work with so passing/living privately was at least a possibility for me.  I applaud those who work towards educating people but I simply dont have the patience for it. So many ingrained cis attitudes, its exhausting talking about it.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 06, 2014, 05:13:18 PM
I don't consider myself out and 'proud' per se but I am very, very out. I feel that, because I'm strong enough to take the flak for it (though there's very little of that) it's a responsibility to make sure that people see a strong, happy, and well-adjusted woman who isn't ashamed to be a transwoman. Being proud of something seems to imply that I take pride in being trans. I don't. If I could flip a switch and be GG, I'd do it in the blink of an eye but I am what I am and my history and perspective are part of who I am and I see no reason to hide that or be ashamed of it in any way.

Another aspect of why I'm 'out' is that it's an opportunity to educate people who may not know what's up with transwomen. I regard myself as very well educated about trans issues, the medical science behind our condition, and the cultural pressures which define our current situation. If I don't share that with people who might not otherwise be exposed to those ideas, then they might go on thinking that we're some kind of perverted child-molesting psychopaths, no matter how many times the talk shows have trans segments.

My approach is quite similar.

Kia Ora,

I guess choosing the option to be Out & Proud, would no doubt also depend greatly upon the environment in which one lives...

Metta Zenda :)

Perhaps I have no place to post here as I am a cis Mom of a trans* girl. She's been the most important part of my life since before she was born.  I still work with friends/colleagues that were around when I was pregnant with her. They know how much I love my son and have heard how he has grown.  I now refer to my child as "my kid" I haven't used the terms" my daughter" except in the trans community and when we're out together.  I have told a very few close coworkers that my kid is trans*. Technically as long as I live and work around folks that have known me for years and care anything about me, she can't be stealth. Strangers will be another story.
I respect her right to privacy.  I'm not running around broadcasting it. I wish to be viewed as an ally. And never want to embarrass or endanger her.
As I will participate as an ally in the trans community, I do not announce I'm a cis female, either.  I no longer care what kind of gender I am. Since I have a traditionally male name and career and dress very andro, I am comfortable with whatever anyone believes now. I wish my daughter and the community to be whatever level of stealth they wish. Obviously many trans* folk will have difficulty in being stealth when in transition.
Many will cut ties like a witness protection program for their own peace of mind.
Bless everyone for being who they are, safely and securely.  My heart breaks for anyone who is unable to be their genuine self without hurting themselves or the ones who love them.
One can only do what works for themselves.
Please forgive me if I offend or you feel I have stepped out of bounds.

Quote from: tbunny on January 08, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
Perhaps I have no place to post here as I am a cis Mom of a trans* girl. She's been the most important part of my life since before she was born.  I still work with friends/colleagues that were around when I was pregnant with her. They know how much I love my son and have heard how he has grown.  I now refer to my child as "my kid" I haven't used the terms" my daughter" except in the trans community and when we're out together.  I have told a very few close coworkers that my kid is trans*. Technically as long as I live and work around folks that have known me for years and care anything about me, she can't be stealth. Strangers will be another story.
I respect her right to privacy.  I'm not running around broadcasting it. I wish to be viewed as an ally. And never want to embarrass or endanger her.
As I will participate as an ally in the trans community, I do not announce I'm a cis female, either.  I no longer care what kind of gender I am. Since I have a traditionally male name and career and dress very andro, I am comfortable with whatever anyone believes now. I wish my daughter and the community to be whatever level of stealth they wish. Obviously many trans* folk will have difficulty in being stealth when in transition.
Many will cut ties like a witness protection program for their own peace of mind.
Bless everyone for being who they are, safely and securely.  My heart breaks for anyone who is unable to be their genuine self without hurting themselves or the ones who love them.
One can only do what works for themselves.
Please forgive me if I offend or you feel I have stepped out of bounds.

good luck to you and your family. WE are all family here and your very welcome to help with suggestion, I for one can use all the help I can get.

Quote from: tbunny on January 08, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
Perhaps I have no place to post here as I am a cis Mom of a trans* girl. She's been the most important part of my life since before she was born.  I still work with friends/colleagues that were around when I was pregnant with her. They know how much I love my son and have heard how he has grown.  I now refer to my child as "my kid" I haven't used the terms" my daughter" except in the trans community and when we're out together.  I have told a very few close coworkers that my kid is trans*. Technically as long as I live and work around folks that have known me for years and care anything about me, she can't be stealth. Strangers will be another story.
I respect her right to privacy.  I'm not running around broadcasting it. I wish to be viewed as an ally. And never want to embarrass or endanger her.
As I will participate as an ally in the trans community, I do not announce I'm a cis female, either.  I no longer care what kind of gender I am. Since I have a traditionally male name and career and dress very andro, I am comfortable with whatever anyone believes now. I wish my daughter and the community to be whatever level of stealth they wish. Obviously many trans* folk will have difficulty in being stealth when in transition.
Many will cut ties like a witness protection program for their own peace of mind.
Bless everyone for being who they are, safely and securely.  My heart breaks for anyone who is unable to be their genuine self without hurting themselves or the ones who love them.
One can only do what works for themselves.
Please forgive me if I offend or you feel I have stepped out of bounds.

Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you for being our ally!

Lots of variations between the extreme of total stealth and totally out. I doubt many do either. From my own experience I truly appreciate the good fortune (and hard work) that gave me the ability to pass. Its a privilege as it gives you privacy and choice. I also know, clearly, that some will never be able to pass.

The proud part is different though. I have been thinking, what exactly does that mean? That you are proud of being trans? I dont feel that way at all, it seems to me more like a disabling condition, some do better than others but no matter what we never have fully functional bodies. Someone talked about people in wheelchairs, to me being trans is a little like that. Some go on to be para olympic athletes. Still disabled, but clearly they do not allow their disability to define them and move on and make the most they possibly can out of their life. Others slide into depression and dont do well at all. Im not judging anyone at all, its just that some people cope with things better than others do. And of course, no one knows what other issues someone might have that contribute to things.

So I feel proud, not because I am trans, but because I dont allow it to define me. I worked really hard to change as fully and convincingly and correctly as my ability permitted. I never forget that I had some good fortune to help me and I always take the oppourtunity to help others as a way of giving something back. I feel proud of that, I feel proud of myself and who I am and what I have done. But so far as being trans goes not really. Its just a thing, maybe an obstacle I had to overcome.

But others might feel different. And thats okay, just so long as they dont expect me to think they are better or more authentic or stronger.

As someone who was raised Catholic, I still have a strange relationship with the word Pride.

Am I proud to be trans? I participate in trans pride events and messaging. But for me "pride" means that I'm not ashamed of being trans (or queer, Pagan, Christian, a father, etc).

I'm being authentically me, but that doesn't make me any more authentic than anyone else. I feel I've needed to be strong in my transition, but that doesn't mean I'm stronger than other. Indeed, when I hear and read the stories of others' struggles, I'm made very aware that there are those whose strength far exceeds my own.

I fault no one for their identities, for their stealth, or for their outness. I think we need all kinds.

Quote from: Constance on January 08, 2014, 11:49:46 AM
As someone who was raised Catholic, I still have a strange relationship with the word Pride.

Am I proud to be trans? I participate in trans pride events and messaging. But for me "pride" means that I'm not ashamed of being trans (or queer, Pagan, Christian, a father, etc).

I'm being authentically me, but that doesn't make me any more authentic than anyone else. I feel I've needed to be strong in my transition, but that doesn't mean I'm stronger than other. Indeed, when I hear and read the stories of others' struggles, I'm made very aware that there are those whose strength far exceeds my own.

I fault no one for their identities, for their stealth, or for their outness. I think we need all kinds.

I'm proud of my self doing what I need to do in spite of the hard ship . I'm older, waited a long time to transition because of denial and a host of other reasons. I lacked the proper knowledge about transition. I thought most did it through a black market of hormones , had no idea of the many different people on Susan's. I'm glad I finally made it. I doubt I could become one of the invisible. every body has their own needs. I have a great therapist now. I'm doing pretty good. It's hard for me to have people no me not as transgender because I live by a university and always in the coffee shops as I transition. As I move on I'm just going to have to deal with comes my way. I love the feel of estrogen. it's still scary some times ,but I can't turn back. basically it's pride in my self.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 18, 2013, 02:42:15 PM
I'm confused on how srs is necessary for passing or stealth.   Most people are not going to see your genitals. Yeah, you can be stealth afterward srs but you can also be stealth beforehand.   I'm planning on being as stealth as possible once I go full time,  but I'll never have the luxury of being totally stealth.  The fact is my family,  friends and coworkers have seen my changes and will continue to witness them.  There is no hiding from them because I'm early in my transition.  But I don't plan on telling anyone in the future.   And my involvement in the trans community is limited to this site where I can share things anonymously without making my name or appearance public.   It will never be total stealth, but i think I'll be okay.

For me it's just a matter of being older when I started to transition.  I doubt I would be invisible .Plus I've dealt with people longer and have dealt with different peoples opinions of me. I'd rather not deal with how people react to me, but this is my life and chosen path. It would be nice if society was far more advanced and the population was more understanding ,but  it's is more important  to live the way I need to live.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 18, 2013, 11:08:45 AM
In my experience, "open and proud" women are among the happiest with their transitions. Our community needs people like you, to show how intelligent and competent transgender People can be.

maybe the time is right to move forward politically to get the proper medical care for more of us to openly come out for issues like surgery's paid by Medicare because change can only come about by being seen

There's nothing wrong with being open at all. I admire it in fact. Just that it takes a certain degree of inner strength to not care what the inevitable ignorants that you encounter think.

Nothing wrong with being open, but I decided to go stealth because it's so much easier for people to see me as a woman that way.  I want to be seen and treated like a lady, not as an "other."

I think if open and proud is for you, that's fab. Whatever makes us happy I think and neither way should be judged. For me, I just want to blend in and not stand out as anything more or less than the woman I am. But again, that's just me.

Quote from: Rose City Rose on October 16, 2014, 03:54:34 AM
Nothing wrong with being open, but I decided to go stealth because it's so much easier for people to see me as a woman that way.  I want to be seen and treated like a lady, not as an "other."

This is what I think.

I don't think I'll go deep stealth (probably not even possible at this point) but being out and trans for me will be on a need to know basis and revealed only to few people (sexual partners, medical professionals, close family) and to my current employer only since after a while I may change jobs.

I want to be seen as a woman, period. Not a "sh*male" or a "tr***y."

That said, I really dislike trans people who go deep stealth then trash talk the trans community. But those who help from behind the stealth curtain I do like.

I always assumed I would live my life in stealth "someday."  However, time went on I finally accepted that waiting for the conditions of "someday" was infeasible.  And as I came out, I discovered to my great surprise that I don't MIND people knowing.  In fact I'm pretty open about it in ways that I never ever imagined I would be.  I work in an office where I was hired as a female, and I know not everyone here knows I'm trans.  If someone came up and asked me, I would have no problem telling them.  I never imagined I could be that open.

Now pride is a funny word.  Am I proud of being transgender?  Not any more than I would have been proud of being born with a cleft palate or any other birth defect that can significantly affect a person's life.  Being trans has made me miserable, made me miss important events that I can never ever experience now, and it's costing me enough money to buy a damn Lamborghini.  But I AM proud of my struggle, of my achievements in spite of being trans.  I'm proud of all the trans people I meet and THEIR achievements.  I'm proud of the work I try to do to help others in this situation.  I'm proud of my drivers license photo, and the fact that just off the bottom edge of the photo is the trans symbol necklace I wore.

At the same time, I don't want to let being trans become excessively central to my life and identity.  I want so desperately to be normal.  Being open has the drawback that it makes ME feel like I am the "other"... and that sucks.  I harbor no ill will towards those who want to be stealth - I really, totally get it.

Not having read every response to this thread, I would just say this - do what works for you. That's all. You need to be you, period, end of discussion.

And I would add that this can change over time too so don't feel guilty if you're out and an activist then decide to live more stealth and not openly activist.

You need to be you, whoever you are! Learn to be comfortable in your own skin. ;)

totally agree with freedom  of choice, but the consequences of stealth being  the  ideal road to travel leaves so many behind and social and political progress  nearly impossible. We've come along way since Christine Jorgensen , but progress only came about because she made a statement. Why can't being transgender be as normal as cis. The only viable route for change is through numbers and openness , otherwise only the minority will  truly  feel free. Just my own personal view, not meant to be taken as an offense against anyone else's beliefs .

Being open and proud?  Well i have no choice but to be open, and i am not proud of my lack of choice.

Quote from: ImagineKate on October 16, 2014, 09:19:44 AMThat said, I really dislike trans people who go deep stealth then trash talk the trans community. But those who help from behind the stealth curtain I do like.

These people exist? I can excuse cis ignorance but stealth trans mocking their own community? No, I would be physically violent with such people.

Quote from: kaye on October 16, 2014, 08:31:23 PM
These people exist? I can excuse cis ignorance but stealth trans mocking their own community? No, I would be physically violent with such people.

Yes, they do exist. I also know one person who is extremely unpassable yet insists that transgender people are fakes, frauds and not real women/men. She tells everyone she's cis and really over does it to the point where it's obvious she's lying.

There is also an acquaintance of mine who would look to out every trans person we came across (in online forums). He would then mock and ridicule them. Eventually I called out the BS but the other moderators turned on me and kicked me off the forum (I was a mod and founding member). Truth be told they wanted to be rid of me anyway, likely because of where I work. I decided to give it a go and come back and in catching up I found a thread where she came out. I wished her nothing but the best.

I've always admired the bravery and courage of transgender people to come to terms with what and who they are.

I think the person who proposed the original question was just trying to say that  change can only happen through a united front. change to the point where the term transgender is obsolete.

Quote from: ImagineKateThat said, I really dislike trans people who go deep stealth then trash talk the trans community. But those who help from behind the stealth curtain I do like.

People who forget where they came from really are the worst.

Not sure what "deep stealth" would mean; I would guess you'd have to start without friends, family, or coworkers knowing which is extremely difficult.  But I don't think many of us could cut off everyone who ever knew us and disappear like that.

stealth is so totally off the plate for me because I've lived in the same place for 20 years with no intension of moving, way too many people no me.

I am attending an academic conference. Today I am wearing my favorite red skirt, but noticed that no woman wears a red skirt. Am I too proud? People in academia are conservative in the Europe or the North America?

A sexy Korean woman commented that she was surprised that I wear so boldly. But most people commented positively. Fortunately, a few women from the North America greeted and chatted with me with less hesitation. Women become more friendly to me.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/15572460362_c20c446ea6_b.jpg)

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on October 19, 2014, 05:45:27 AM
I am attending an academic conference. Today I am wearing my favorite red skirt, but noticed that no woman wears a red skirt. Am I too proud? People in academia are conservative in the Europe or the North America?

A sexy Korean woman commented that she was surprised that I wear so boldly. But most people commented positively. Fortunately, a few women from the North America greeted and chatted with me with less hesitation. Women become more friendly to me.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/15572460362_c20c446ea6_b.jpg)

barbie~~

red and black are my favorite colors. you look fabulous as usual Barbie .

Funny how the choice is presented as an either or one, you're either stealth or out and proud. The truth is more messy, even if you have no problem being perceived as female. I like that I can be honest with some of my friends but also have zero desire to educate everyone that crosses my path.

Quote from: stephaniec on October 19, 2014, 03:50:14 PM
red and black are my favorite colors. you look fabulous as usual Barbie .

Thanks, Stephanie.

I am wearing the same skirt to present in the conference.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3945/14990175143_15a9d685d4_o.png)

I chatted with a lot of people. One from N. America talked to me about education on transgender people in school.

barbie~~

Quote from: Hanazono on October 24, 2014, 07:27:39 AM
I'm going to say something incendiary.

if you want to be treated as any other woman would
instead of as a guy in a dress
stealth is the only way

this is how the cis sexism cookies crumble
don't flame me 

feel free to smite my reputation if it incenses you

This isn't necessarily true, Hanazono.  You might want to have a look at this thread where I recounted a recent experience of mine.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,175976.0.html

It's my belief that the way individuals and society perceive us will evolve with time.  As proof, I allege this incident.

Quote from: Hanazono on October 24, 2014, 11:59:10 AM
however; how would anyone relate being out and proud with say , closing sales prospects ?

I don't have the answer to this one, not being in business myself.  But I do some free-lance work, and when I came out to two people that I have contact with, they were perfectly OK with it.  In fact, one of them told me his dentist was trans.

Hanazono, these are early days yet.  We transpeople haven't been in the public eye for very long, and so it's impossible to say how people will see us in a couple of more generations, say.  But lots of us do have good stories to tell.  E.g., three of my women friends often get together for "a girly lunch".  When I came out, they started including me.  So I would say they're treating me like any other woman.  When you're being included in a girly lunch, that's quite significant.

Also, I'm a member of a book club which is all women.  Not that men are excluded.  They just don't show up.  But all the members are perfectly OK with me.  As when one of them, saying good-bye to me and another woman at the end of one meeting, said, "See you, girls!"

And you might note that in places such as Ireland where legislation is being passed or considered that will recognize transgender rights, the provision always is that transpeople will be recognized as "male" or "female"--not as "transgender" or "other".

What I'm saying is that in ways (small ways perhaps) we transpeople are already being accepted as men and women.  We can't predict the future of course, but the signs are already there that cispeople may eventually come to accept us simply as another variety of men and women.

Quote from: Hanazono on October 24, 2014, 11:59:10 AM
hi and thanks for the link to the other post. it gave me interesting insights.

however; how would anyone relate being out and proud with say , closing sales prospects ?

we know it's easy to get businesses which we're customers of to more easily "accept " trans people but how about the other way around?

I think this is a major issue. However, it's an axiom of sales that you need to be able to sell to all sorts of people, not just people like you. I've come across good salesmen and saleswomen who were adept at humanizing themselves and making a connection with any customer in a very short period of time. Trans salesfolk are no different. We need to humanize ourselves, to introduce ourselves in ways that lets our customers connect with us as human beings. Look for common ground with the customer.

It's easy for people to be disgusted with us in the abstract. It's a whole lot harder when they realize we're people just like them, with careers, interests, families, likes and dislikes, etc.

Last week, one lady from Canada asked me whether I prefer being called 'she' or being called 'he'. She knows me very well, and asked that question, as I was wearing heels and skirt. They know well that I am not a cis-woman, but those people and my friend/colleagues treat me accordingly.... but how they treat or perceive me seems to differ by person.

Based on my voice, most people can know my biological sex, but nobody has yet offended me. Aged women just say I look beautiful. Young women give some advice on fashion and makeup.

I work as a university professor, and my graduate students have not yet shown any unusual reaction to me. They just think I am their mentor, regardless of my appearance.

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on October 24, 2014, 12:44:24 PM
Last week, one lady from Canada asked me whether I prefer being called 'she' or being called 'he'. She knows me very well, and asked that question, as I was wearing heels and skirt. They know well that I am not a cis-woman, but those people and my friend/colleagues treat me accordingly.... but how they treat or perceive me seems to differ by person.

Based on my voice, most people can know my biological sex, but nobody has yet offended me. Aged women just say I look beautiful. Young women give some advice on fashion and makeup.

I work as a university professor, and my graduate students have not yet shown any unusual reaction to me. They just think I am their mentor, regardless of my appearance.

barbie~~

I must say I truly admire you and also wished I had legs like yours.

Quote from: Hanazono on October 24, 2014, 10:38:23 PM
I am fairly certain you have approximately the same amount of toes per leg, functional feet, ankles, knees, calves and thighs like Barbie does?

Yes. Two women at their 40s and 60s from Australia asked me whether it is not difficult and painful for me to wear high heels. They added that they no longer wear high heels after their 20s. Yes. 5-inch heels can give some pain to my feet, but 4-inch or 1-2 inch platform heels are comfortable to wear, although it is difficult to run as if wearing sneakers. They did not mention at all my legs or body shape.

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on October 25, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
Yes. Two women at their 40s and 60s from Australia asked me whether it is not difficult and painful for me to wear high heels. They added that they no longer wear high heels after their 20s. Yes. 5-inch heels can give some pain to my feet, but 4-inch or 1-2 inch platform heels are comfortable to wear, although it is difficult to run as if wearing sneakers. They did not mention at all my legs or body shape.

barbie~~

I love heels , but my knees are bad, so can only endure very short periods