Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms. Is this a fair observation? It's just that I'm quite sensitive to how "girlie" or "manly" trans people desire to become, because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

I'm terrible at descriptions and I've been told my thought process is odd, but let me try. For me it was like this: gender was a scale balanced on a pivot. Tilting to one side was masculine, the other feminine. I felt like, being born female, my scale was tipped naturally to that side. So I needed to apply the same amount of masculine/weight to balance it and even more to tilt it towards masculinity. So only by being very traditionally manly could I 'outweigh' the femininity.

Luckily I've made peace with myself as a not-very-macho geek and I'm happy with what femininity I still have.

I can't speak for anyone else and am highly biased, but I'm one of the people who will speak of "gender norms" with frustration and anger. I do not understand why people keep believing in them.
As for masculine and feminine being on opposite sides of a spectrum and being expected to choose just one, I don't like that. At least, not for me personally. I was sick of people trying to label me as either a "girly girl" or a "tomboy" in high school and I'm sick of being expected to be either an effeminate guy or a manly guy now. If someone tries to label me as either/or I will be pissed.

in the norm today its ok for a woman to be a tomboy but not ok for a man to be a girlyman. doesnt even sound right to us right? after hrt, id probably be a tomboy only because i still like some "guy" things like videogames and i like to dress comfrtably. sweatshirts and sweatpants.
my problem with being a y is the teststerone and all its side effects.

The whole gender-specific activities thing drives me nuts, too. On another forum site I was on once, someone singled out my music choices as not being very female oriented. I was like, what the...? I didn't realise that bands like The Pixies, The Smiths, The Clash, Nick Cave, Pavement, Kraftwerk and Joy Division were for males only. Weird.

I feel that every transgender female has just as much right to develop her own unique personality as any cis girl does.   Each of us as to develop our own personality and our own code of personal behavior.   We transgender and transexual woman do not have the choice of being females, but we do have a choice over who we become.  The same is true for transgender and transexual males.   Each individual has the same God given rights and the same moral choices.     It is not our responsibility to judge the choices of others, we have to worry about ourselves, for the Eternal Forces will not only judge us for how we live our lives, the Eternal Forces will judge us for how we treat others.    For what goes around, comes around and if we are harsh with others, Life may well be harsh with us.

I think it's just an issue with separating out gender identity with gender expression, which our society still has issues with.

Someone can have a very feminine gender identity, but a very masculine gender expression. This is why butch trans women exist. But most of society doesn't see this. They think that gender identity and expression are intertwined, because for most people they do indeed line up. So we as a group have a tendency to want to align ourselves with these norms so that we fit in better. The prevailing cultural standard for someone who is a trans woman but still very masculine gender-expression-wise, is "why do you even bother transitioning in the first place if you still want to do guy things?" And vice versa for trans men. It just makes it a lot easier if you fit into the cultural norms a bit better. But yeah, it definitely isn't a good thing. We do still live in a society where men are expected to act a certain way and women are expected to act a certain way and if you fall outside of those norms you're seen as weird. Where we really need to be is in a society where gender identity and expression are separate, and it's equally okay for a woman to be either feminine or masculine, and for a man to be masculine or feminine, and it's seen as completely normal either way, because their gender expression doesn't make them any less of a woman/man identity-wise either way.

But until society has transformed itself and being female is no longer second class, us transgender and transexual women will have the corner on weird any way, so we might as well be ourselves, and be the kind of females we choose to be, whatever that is.   Because we are women, and subject to the same social forces that any other woman is, and even more so, because we were born with male bodies, and must struggle to become accepted as women.   By definition we are considered weird, so what difference does it make if we just become ourselves as women, whoever, that is, if we are going to be considered weird anyway.

i like being weird.
i have a question.
are other trans women makin the judgements like every other gender, or are we really expected to be ultra femanized in society?

I think it's just that we're under a bit more pressure because we, unlike cis-women, have to prove our womanhood to the world.

Quote from: michelle on December 31, 2013, 10:02:32 PM
we might as well be ourselves, and be the kind of females we choose to be, whatever that is.

I have to agree with you,  and like everyone else I hate that you can be seen as a man or woman if you don't fall within the rubric.
Be whoever you want, focus on your thoughts and feelings and just feel free express them however. I hate when people try to blend in.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms.

I think that there are two separate aspects to gender norms.  There is the aspect of what traits are considered masculine and feminine.  And I certainly would prefer to be feminine.   But there is a separate aspect of prohibition or exclusion.  It's the expectation that because you are male you can't show any feminine traits or because you are female you can't act in a masculine manner.  This is the part I object to.  I don't necessarily want to be hyper-feminine, any more than the next girl... but I want the option to be.

Its OK that there are gender norms and roles, I just don't think anyone should have to worry about getting fired or beaten or disowned for not conforming to them.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

holy crap THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT! Finally someone else who gets it

Quote from: Emo on December 31, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
i like being weird.
i have a question.
are other trans women makin the judgements like every other gender, or are we really expected to be ultra femanized in society?

thats my concern with therapist recomendations. im too much of a tomboy to really do the RLT to what i imagine would be their satisfaction

in my formative years there were quite definite demarcation lines and now watching New Years Day concert those lines still apply thank goodness.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms. Is this a fair observation? It's just that I'm quite sensitive to how "girlie" or "manly" trans people desire to become, because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

Like cis women, trans women live our lives whatever kind of women we want. I know a lot of trans girls IRL who drive hefty trucks and work construction.

Gender diversity once was very high in the ancient time, but decreased after major religions such as Judo-christianism and Confucianism dominated around the world. Now, it again is increasing.

I am unique, and I am not obliged to follow the gender stereotype. This is in part why I do not transition.

Young students tend to be surprised at my aggressiveness in research and teaching, despite my feminine appearance.

barbie~~

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PMI'm quite sensitive to how "girlie" or "manly" trans people desire to become, because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

THAT is precisely why I like the term "third gender" which denotes 'uniqueness" - I am not out to "prove to the world" anything other than "I am me"!

And which is also why most successful people here over the years have eventually *retired from Susans* and sought to disassociate themselves from everything labeled "trans"?

QuoteLike the hijra, the third gender is in many cultures made up of individuals considered male at the time of birth who take on a feminine gender role or sexual role. In cultures that have not taken on Western heteronormativity, they are usually seen as acceptable sexual partners for male-identifying individuals as long as the latter always maintain the "active" role.

It's either that, one retains their original 'partner mate' (for preservative 'family' reasons?) /or/ they come to accept a life of celibacy much like as described in biblical times by the ruling political class as 'eunichs'?

We are who we are. Knowing that our bodies should be female rather than the male we were born or vice versa. Is different then doing 'masculine' or 'feminie' things. I do what I do because I like to, wether someone thinks it follows a gender form or not. My body is changing because I am a woman and want my body to match what I am.

Alot of female items of clothing started out as masculine and women just made it their own. Everything changes with time and circumstance.

Quote from: Emo on December 31, 2013, 09:34:28 PM
in the norm today its ok for a woman to be a tomboy but not ok for a man to be a girlyman.

If men do something that is considered 'feminine' they're quickly targets of suspicions and associated with homosexuality. It just shows how patriarchal society is and how it places lower value in things considered 'feminine' (save the physical part of course).

@kiera
thats part of why i decided i wanted a full trans.
i dont want the T to control me. if i decide to be celibate, i want it to come easy.

@feather
exactly!
i usually prefer genderless activities like watching anime and reading... and music.

but i guess its what i choose. i like any kind of anime but ive seen girly (chobits) and manly (soul eater) but i tend to go for ones that express bth sides of the spectrum. a little romance mixed in with violence and lots of thinking and stuff like that.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms. Is this a fair observation? It's just that I'm quite sensitive to how "girlie" or "manly" trans people desire to become, because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

Good observation, Jenna.

Due to the circumstances of our socialization and the cultures were were bright up in, it is often difficult to separate gender identity from gender expectations.

I'm just me, and being me means breaking some of those societal rules on how one much act or present.

A number of prior replies have hit on what I think the answer to this is.  While gender is a broad spectrum with all manner of variations, on a practical level we inhabit a society where you're either male or female.  And living outside the binary is, well, difficult at the best of times.  For many of us, it's a case of looking at the two available boxes and deciding which would be the best fit, if only because it's convenient on a getting-through-the-day-alive-and-happy level.  And for some, the opposite gender is a perfect fit and the binary works just as it should.

For someone like me, I'd be happy to be put in the "female" box even though it's not quite a perfect fit, a compromise that's good enough to allow me to live a happy, productive life.

Others have different priorities and goals - some want to fight the gender battles in the trenches, some want to express themselves in greater detail, some want to push boundaries and break barriers, etc., and for those individuals, the gender binary really doesn't work at all.  And I, as a trans* person, even though I fit fairly neatly into the binary, will happily smash the binary to pieces if it'll help other trans* people find what they're looking for.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

If I were born a female, I'm sure I would be some sort of butch lesbian, and probably still be, at the very least, gender questioning. I do agree there is some push towards being the opposite binary, and I really don't like it. I don't really see myself being a binary female as any less incorrect as me being a binary male. I may eventually be one who retires from Susan's for this reason, though I'd rather see androgyny be more acceptable, both here and IRL.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
because if I were actually a female I would be quite a tomboy (which is quite hard to explain to people).

The longer transition goes on, the clearer it becomes that for me there is actually no other choice than to be a sort of tomboy :).

Quote from: Emo on January 01, 2014, 11:40:47 AM
@feather
exactly!
i usually prefer genderless activities like watching anime and reading... and music.

Hey I just found this.. another good example..
https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q71/1533941_733725276638453_567127995_n.jpg (https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q71/1533941_733725276638453_567127995_n.jpg)

I think it's a fair observation. I think though it tends to go with presentation and not how people actually are. I look a lot more "male" (don't think anyone would say that I'm a manly man whatever the heck that is) than I am inside. I do know of tomboy and biker chick type MTFs and it's my observation they get hassled more than I would if I weren't for the femme boi thing (I've never been feminine). It seems like some MTFs are bent on the make up/clothes/presentation advice to these people I know.

--Jay

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on December 31, 2013, 06:51:11 PM
Something odd has just occurred to me. We all talk about "gender norms" in a pejorative manner, yet it seems that many trans* people want to align themselves with prevailing gender norms.

This is a very resonant observation for me, Jenna. What the specific number of trans people wanting to align themselves with prevailing gender norms is, I really don't know. I do know, however, that the man/woman binary was very much my base assumption when I started exploring my own gender experience in earnest. 'I'm not really a guy,' my thinking went, 'so I must be a girl.'

This gave rise to a whole bunch of ideas about what my future looked like that, over time, started to feel claustrophobic, misguided, forced, and just plain yucky. After a lot of angst and struggle, I went back to square one and really looked at my experience again. This time around, I found: 'I'm not really a guy and I'm not really a girl - so either I'm crazy or there's something inadequate in the whole guy/girl binary.'

Which side of this conclusion (crazy vs inadequate) varies from day to day. But here, Jenna, is one trans person who seems unable to align with prevailing gender norms. Sometimes I wish I could, but truth seems I can't. So I'm now trying to understand how to embody who I am in a very binary world. An interesting process...