Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I see a lot of stuff that argues over the definition parameters and validity and such, of identities, what they mean, and why people have them. 

On one side, nature.  The idea that people are "born" a certain way due to bran chemistry and neural structures and that conflates with all manner of unproven things, on mostly unproven bases (the brain structure studies aren't as scientifically sound as they would like to think, and haven't been cross-referenced, as far as I can tell, with other studies that invalidate both their conclusions and the entire basis of the initial study.  Nobody knows enough about neuroscience and the meanings of differences in brain scans to be as definitive as these researchers are trying to be.) 

On the other side, nurture.  The idea that people are products of their environments, and environment/socialization is a big factor in making people who they are, the messages they absorb, the behaviors they are compelled to imitate, which presumes all manner of social constructs that don't exist in real life yet are assumed to exist in the same way/same forms because of the general outcome (for instance, the myth of "shared girlhood" and the idea that all small humans absorb socialization of one form or another in the same way as everyone else as these passive receivers of external things that most of them may not even understand.)

What about individual choice?  Why is this not considered in nature vs. nurture debates?  Why is choice seen as less valid and less inherent than either nature or nurture?  Why the assumption that humans are passive recipients of either biology OR socialization?  Does anyone wonder if, maybe, people are the way they are because they personally prefer it, and chose to be?  Is personal choice somehow less a part of inherent being than biology or socialization?

I understand the fear of attributing deep-seated aspects of personhood to choice, i.e, "if you chose to be this marginalized identity, why can't you just choose not to be?" and then trying to alter human choice via brainwashing.  But this is also demeaning the importance and power of choice.  The choices one makes are just as much an inherent part of them as anything else.  Trying to force and finagle someone into making choices that they wouldn't otherwise make is to psychologically mutilate them.  Even if those choices are not the choices someone else would make.  Even if those choices are considered "wrong."

The ability to choose, i.e, agency, is what makes humans human.  We can even alter the evolution of our own species, consciously, via free will and choice.  Humans can make themselves whatever they choose to, because they chose to.  Humans can do this, have had to do this, to compensate for our lack of claws or wings or keen senses.  The spear was invented to compensate for a lack of talons or canines--what humans could not obtain by natural endowment they obtained by invention and tools.  Agency.  Without agency, we would not even be here.

The only "human nature" is the ability to choose and self-define, regardless of circumstance or bio/neurological limitation.

So maybe people are the way they are because they chose to be.  That is just as valid as being "born-this-way," imo.  Their choice is an inherent part of them--why would they have chosen something that doesn't matter to them?  If it wasn't important, why would a choice have been made in the first place?  Why would they have seen green or blue and chosen green, Green Green definitely 100% green, instead of...meh, whichever.

Why focus on imperatives, be they biological or social, with all this agency going on that is capable of trouncing almost any imperative or limitation because that's what it's meant to do?

QuoteDoes anyone wonder if, maybe, people are the way they are because they personally prefer it.

Yes.  :)

I've got nothing against the idea that some choose a lifestyle or someone actively doing just that.  However, I don't like when people say that we all have a choice whether we are trans, gay, etc.  I can speak with certainty that if I had a choice, I wouldn't of chosen to be trans nor would I have chosen to be attracted to men.  I've tried everything I could to suppress my feelings and be something that I wasn't.  Now, I can't say why I feel what I feel, but it's certainly not a simple thing that I can change.  On the same token, I'm sure there are people that may choose a particular lifestyle and hide behind the "born this way banner" out of fear when they don't need to.  I could care less if I met someone that was trans because of their individual preference.  More power to them.  They are just as welcome in our community.  Still, I'm uncomfortable by those that claim this is a choice for all of us because it denies the individual experience of many people that don't feel this way.   Overall, I think there is room for nature, nurture and individual preference.

I agree with LTL, I dont think its a choice. Why would I choose to be trans and be rejected by my family and peers. It just doesnt make a lot of sense.

This is a fascinating topic to me and one the sages, moralists and psych folks endlessly consider.  I want very much to confidently think I have individual choice.  Making choices assumes we are doing so in the context of a culture that birthed and nurtured us.   The essential tools for this very discussion include a learned language and years of socialization.  We make no choices in a vacuum and being able to parse the influences that make us individuals is a daunting and ongoing tease out not subject to objective verification at this point.  Mapping the brain, interpreting our genetic code and more solid science will contribute more data to consider as we progress.

Numerous studies focusing on the behavior of separated twins and other phenomena can give us clues.  It may just be hubris that allows me to believe that we exercise choices to make the best of what we get from nature and nurture.  Are we assuming another binary ideal in considering it is all nature vs nurture?

Do you feel like being trans was a choice for you, or is this just a philosophical exercise?

QuoteHowever, I don't like when people say that we all have a choice whether we are trans, gay, etc.  I can speak with certainty that if I had a choice, I wouldn't of chosen to be trans nor would I have chosen to be attracted to men.  I've tried everything I could to suppress my feelings and be something that I wasn't.

I believe she's saying you may simply prefer being a woman, not a man. That perhaps the brain chemistry or 'wiring' isn't that of a woman? If you did prefer being a woman because you like the many aspects of it versus that of a man, then I wouldn't think you would feel being transgender is a choice either.

I don't know.

Serious question: Would it matter?

Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
I believe she's saying you may simply prefer being a woman, not a man. That perhaps the brain chemistry or 'wiring' isn't that of a woman? If you did prefer being a woman because you like the many aspects of it versus that of a man, then I wouldn't think you would feel being transgender is a choice either.

I don't know.

Serious question: Would it matter?

It's not something that matters for the most part.  However, it does bother me when people think we can just switch it on or off and that can be used for reprogramming (not that this is what the op is doing).  It may be that way for some people, but my gender or sexuality is really not something I can change.  I've had these feelings since childhood and most of my life has been haunted with shame and self hatred for having these feelings.  If I could choose to be a straight man and live happily, I really would have done so because I've really tried to reprogram myself.  That's the only issue I have when people suggest it being a choice.   At the end of the day, it really isn't important.  I suspect there are elements of nature, nurture and individual choice that makes up our identities overall.  I have no problem confessing that I have no idea what caused me to be this way, and I may never know.  I'm okay with that, but I know these feelings have been with me despite my attempts to get rid of them.

No, I'm not saying we can turn this on and off at all, to the contrary.

I'm saying we're driven and motivated by our preferences, our personalities, etc., we can't change these, they may evolve on some level, but they're not choices.

When I was a kid, my brothers wanted to go hunting and I wanted to cook with my mom and grandmother in the kitchen. Society raised an eyebrow at that, and I can go down the list and find far many more societal discrepancies than societal fits. Puberty wasn't just hard because I began to look more masculine, but because I lost my preferred friends (girls). This time more than any caused a massive shift in unhappiness in me, I've felt lost ever since.

I've wondered if just who I am (ie, personality, preferences, motivations, etc) just never fit with being male in society's eyes, but had I been born biologically female, all would have fit well and I'd have been far more accepted. I see no choice about that, transition is a choice and perhaps a good one. Again, I don't know if that's it or not, but I'm not sure it would matter, doesn't change my situation or the decision all that much.

Quote from: Nikko on January 04, 2014, 03:02:59 PM
No, I'm not saying we can turn this on and off at all, to the contrary.

I'm saying we're driven and motivated by our preferences, our personalities, etc., we can't change these, they may evolve on some level, but they're not choices.

When I was a kid, my brothers wanted to go hunting and I wanted to cook with my mom and grandmother in the kitchen. Society raised an eyebrow at that, and I can go down the list and find far many more societal discrepancies than societal fits. Puberty wasn't just hard because I began to look more masculine, but because I lost my preferred friends (girls). This time more than any caused a massive shift in unhappiness in me, I've felt lost ever since.

I've wondered if just who I am (ie, personality, preferences, motivations, etc) just never fit with being male in society's eyes, but had I been born biologically female, all would have fit well and I'd have been far more accepted. I see no choice about that, transition is a choice and perhaps a good one. Again, I don't know if that's it or not, but I'm not sure it would matter, doesn't change my situation or the decision all that much.

No, I see what you mean.  I'm talking more about those who endorse conversion therapy.  Those who suggest we can change if we just try.  My own family (mother in particular) has been pushing for me to do some form of conversion therapy and it kills me that they can't understand how this isn't a lifestyle thing for me.   After all, I've already done everything I could to push these feelings away.  Apparently, seeing a straight male therapist should straighten me out and make a man out of me, lol.

The social aspect of being female is appealing to me, but so is the appearance aspect.  Puberty was terrible for me for both it's social expectations and for its biological impact.  At the core of it, some could say there is a "choice" component, but even so, it's not really something we can easily change or reprogram.  It may be true for some, but not most of us. Transitioning I suppose is a choice and to a degree so is our preferences, so I see what you mean and can agree to a point.  It's just those that say "why not choose a different path" that get to me.  It seems they really don't understand.  For example, sexuality is always brought up in this debate.  I don't know many people that really have a say over what they are attracted to.  To a degree, there may be personal preferences that factor into attraction, but a lot of it isn't something we choose or program. That's why there is such a huge backing to the born this way camp.  It's not to say nurture or preferences don't play a role, but it's just not something that can easily be changed (if at all). 

I think it's absolutely fine that people believe they are exercising their choice to be transgendered. However, I have a problem with this stance for a number of logical reasons. The main problem is that I am a determinist and therefore don't believe in choice or free-will.

For example, what role does choice play in being transgendered? If an agent "chooses" to be transgendered, as suggested, what is motivating that agent to make such a decision? That is, there has to be some kind of influence, biological or environmental, that pushes an agent to "decide" or recognise that they are transgendered. These sorts of decisions do not spring forth from a vacuum (and if they do they are just as likely to evaporate as quickly as they appeared), but are rather based on a progression of external, internal, biological and/or environmental forces.

I say and/or with regard to biological/internal and external/environmental influences, as it's highly likely that all these influences interact to form the brain states with which we negotiate the world today. As I suggested in another thread (based on two research papers), our biological makeup could influence our social behaviour, which could in turn direct the formation of brain structure. If this is the case, it would be a huge challenge to identify where the biological and environmental influences begin and end. Whatever the case, I believe our decisions are predetermined by all influences acting upon past and current brain states, which then determine our next "choice".

IMO no one chooses to be LGBTQ anymore than we can choose our parents or place of birth.  We all know the reciprocal question; so when did you choose to be straight and cisgendered?  Yes, who and what nurtured us and the gifts of nature were not somethings we determined.  Given those inputs how much then do we really choose our behavior?  It seems considerable harm and damage can result from attempts to deprogram or cure us.  It wasn't long ago that people like us were subject to electroshock therapy and other useless attempts to cure what was different about us.

Our stories of heroic individuals who overcome the adversity of humble beginnings and strife are the stuff of legend and song.  We choose to think the individual has free will rather than accept simple destiny for the course of our lives.  We strive to understand, improve and make a difference and are unlikely to accept being merely passive vessels.  I like to think we can choose to be a better person and to create something entirely new.  Pride, hubris or just kidding myself?  IDK  But one worthy secular tenet to consider is; great claims require great proofs.

This seems a fun but, yes, philosophical debate.

If who I was was a choice, I sure made a bad one and stuck to it beyond all reason! Being TS effected my life from childhood into my 20s in every way imaginable and just about killed me numerous times. If I could have changed it, I would have. If I could have passed for a boy, life would have been a hell of a lot better.

Beyond that topic, I was an adopted child and I never knew anyone else like me in terms of temperament, disposition, sense of humour, moral values and everything else. I thought I made a lot of decisions about who I was going to be and what kind of person I would become. I thought I made these choices of my own free will. When I was 40, I met my birth mother and discovered I was an EXACT carbon copy of her! WTF??!! All those "choices" were the same ones she had made 20 years earlier!

I'm fascinated by this topic, I think the OP's thoughts are fascinating.

I feel I did choose to try and make being 100% male work for me most of my life, nearly died trying.  ;)

I chose five years ago to change my gender identity. Since then, it hasn't been much of a choice, but rather I've been pulled down a path I never planned and to this day don't understand all that well. Why? Why am I doing this? The answer is to feel right, to feel happy, to feel more complete. I feel the reason I made this switch is because I exhausted all attempts to be happy with the status quo. I knew about changing genders for years, but this took a long time to be an option. What if in the end I'm not able to make transition 'work'? What if the negatives which so many are out of my control outweigh the positives. What then? Do my choices open up again? What would that choice be? Will I reject the notion of gender all together, gee, how nice would that be for some of us?

Note, through all of this, I don't feel my underlying person has changed dramatically, it has evolved and changed, but not tremendously. But it seems to me nature, nurture, and individual choice are all inextricably linked in all of this, at least for some.

If I could wave a magic wand, I know what I would do, no question. But nature threw me a curve ball, nurture has changed the landscape dramatically, and now my individual choices are causing me angst. Something tells me I'm more common than those who see no other than one choice to make and never look back and live happily ever after. God bless you folks that managed this, I salute you!  :)

It seems to me no one knows for sure why being trans occurs. There are elegant theories, but we all know what time does to many of these nice theories. They may know one day if there's a gene or some development issue that causes this, but they may find we are no different than anyone in our DNA and development. What then? I've known MtF's that I feel would be troubled by the later. In my case, I accept that nature as well as nurture may be ruled out as causes. I don't see what that changes. I'm good either way I guess.  :)

I think that, like everything, this varies from person to person.

GQ/GF/CD/TV persons definitely seem to have a higher number of persons who would say that they choose to represent outside the gender binary. For some, it's a philosophical argument. For others, things just seem to make more sense that way.

I know many, many, MANY TS (myself included) who desperately tried to *not* transition (up to and including suicide to avoid it), however. If it were a choice, I'd have been happy and content in my body and physique and never once even heard about Susan's Place. For me and others like me, it really seems much more essential than 'choice'.

I think that choosing is fine and if someone wants to choose to live as the opposite sex for whatever reasons, that's okay but I don't think in any way that it's always a choice.

A fun bit of philosophy for you to consider, however: If nature and nurture combined do not define the choices that we make, what does? Do you consider a person's psychology to be somehow independent of these factors?

I dislike thinking that it's merely a choice because that suggests that I had a say in this matter and that I don't suffer dysphoria.  If I could just be content in my body and as a female then I sure as heck would have, but that's not an option for me if I want to keep my mental health under control and stick around on this planet.  At the moment I'm "choosing" to live as a female because of my job, and it's one of the most damaging things I've ever done in my life, but it was a necessary evil at the time.

I can choose to outwardly pretend that this doesn't exist, but I definitely can't pretend that I'm not male to myself.  It's not really a choice when it's do or die, it's do or insanity (in more than one way).  Maybe your way of being trans is different and it is a choice for you, but for me, not at all.

Thinking about it another way though, is anything a true choice?  I can think that almost anything can be taken back to either nature or nurture.  You choose what you want to eat everyday, but is that a choice?  Part of it seems to be nature, for example hating brussel sprouts is dependant on whether or not you have the TAS2R38 gene that allows you to taste the bitter PTC in them, but other parts of it are nurture.  I can't stand hot sweetcorn because of having a really bad piece when I was in primary school.  The political party we choose to support is influenced by the people we know and the experiences in our lives which shape what we find most important to us, our religion can change depending on what experiences we have with it.  There's not much that we actually choose in this life, both the sets of genes that make us, and the environment we grow up in influence us in many, many little ways.

I don't think we have as much control over our lives as we thing we do at all.  Yeah, we could ignore a potential partner, or take a certain job, but the sort of person we've been born/grown up to being plays a part in that too.  In my company there are 5 different disciplines, some are more electrical, and some are more mechanical.  Nine times out of ten you can tell who is part of the most mechanical and physical discipline, Track, simply by looking at or talking to someone.  Even that's not so much of a choice.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on January 04, 2014, 06:27:15 PM

If nature and nurture combined do not define the choices that we make, what does? Do you consider a person's psychology to be somehow independent of these factors?

That would be some form of dualism, so no.

I thought this was very interesting, kinda fits the topic, worth watching...

http://youtu.be/u2GIu5ZpnTM (http://youtu.be/u2GIu5ZpnTM)

I am inclined to frame the matter the idea of choice/identity in a way that does not throw away the former without selling-out on nature.  Identity is our sense of self, and it simply is who we feel we are.  We can't choose it any more than us any of chooses to like pink or like basketball -- our attitudes towards them can change over time, but as we acquire greater understanding of them and their nuances, our feelings will be increasingly tied to our nature rather than the "nurture" that dictates our first/second/third/etc impressions.  "Conversion" programs, incidentally, are geared towards presenting a maximally-skewed message to rig things so nurture can drown out nature.  What makes resources like Susan's and WPATH great is that while they're opening a whole array of possibilities many of us hadn't considered before, they're not *pushing* us to defy social expectations, either -- we are encouraged to determine to see just where we are.

Choice, I believe, is how we respond as our identity interacts with social norms.  If there's a conflict, do we affirm ourselves or do we conform?  Society's moral obligation is to make both options possible without retribution (while "allowing" us to conform doesn't seem like an appealing "choice," we should still be able to "come out" on our terms).  The only time society should intervene is when it has a good reason to do so... and I think the heart of the matter is "when is it appropriate for society to intervene in what we do?"  Ultimately the burden falls on society to justify itself, and the push to deny TG/Q rights basically rests on intellectually-lazy grounds that simply cannot meet the requirements of a "good" infringement.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on January 04, 2014, 07:33:41 PM
That would be some form of dualism, so no.

I'm going for alternate universe as a third option

Quote from: Kaelin on January 04, 2014, 11:52:05 PM
I am inclined to frame the matter the idea of choice/identity in a way that does not throw away the former without selling-out on nature.  Identity is our sense of self, and it simply is who we feel we are.  We can't choose it any more than us any of chooses to like pink or like basketball -- our attitudes towards them can change over time, but as we acquire greater understanding of them and their nuances, our feelings will be increasingly tied to our nature rather than the "nurture" that dictates our first/second/third/etc impressions.  "Conversion" programs, incidentally, are geared towards presenting a maximally-skewed message to rig things so nurture can drown out nature.  What makes resources like Susan's and WPATH great is that while they're opening a whole array of possibilities many of us hadn't considered before, they're not *pushing* us to defy social expectations, either -- we are encouraged to determine to see just where we are.

Quote

Nice summation

I don't see why it has to be nature or nurture.  Why can't it be nature and nurture. 

We are the sum of all of our parts... from the cultures we're born into to the hormonal, neural transmitter laden soup that runs through our veins.  We are the result of choices we've made and burdens we've carried.  We're both the DNA that formed us and the parents and peers that helped form our opinions.

I think its OK for us to be complex beings and I resist the notion that there has to be a single simple "WHY" for how we come to be transgendered. 

For myself... transgender is something I've been for longer than I can remember.  It's something that occurred without any conscious choice on my part.
For others... it may have happened later in life when you made a choice that you preferred a lifestyle as the opposite gender.

However it came about... whether through biology, socialization, spirituality, free will or any combination of the above... we've all arrived at this place in our own unique way and I don't see why any one of the narratives about how we've gotten here should invalidate the others or lessen our right to be just as we are or have chosen to be.

Quote from: SunKat on January 05, 2014, 06:37:37 AM
I don't see why it has to be nature or nurture.  Why can't it be nature and nurture. 

We are the sum of all of our parts... from the cultures we're born into to the hormonal, neural transmitter laden soup that runs through our veins. 

LOL Concur! EVERYONE has primordial, sacred elements of 'male' or femaleness' within them. At conception often imperfect nature biologically divides out and pushes us one way or another but every CHOICE we subsequently make in THIS LIFE should be geared back toward The One 'Soup'  ;D which is a Whole Spirit again!

How 'environment' or existing cultures, which is nothing more than the historical product(s) of other people's thinking and choices, REACT to Our Choices as individuals does, to a more or less degree also of our choosing, influence how we feel about ourselves and the needs we are 'compelled' to express.

Quote from: Emerging Cultures
Cultural influences are perhaps the least understood aspect of transsexuality - in large part the effects of culture are so hard to define and study. Still, the evidence suggests that these factors strongly influence whether MtF transsexuals tend to be gay of straight. In Far Eastern countries such as Korea, Malaysia. Singapore and Thailand, fewer than 5 percent of MtF transsexuals may be heterosexual. The rest are homosexual biological males, usually extremely feminine in their behavior and appearance and exclusively attracted toward men. (These are the so-called kathoeys or ladyboys of Southeast Asia.) In striking contrast, this ratio of gay to straight is almost perfectly flipped in the West, where 75 percent or more of American and British transsexuals are heterosexual - attracted to women - or bisexual . . .

This correlation could result from the fact that in collectivist countries, such as those in Southeast Asia, effeminate, homosexual men are not well tolerated - they may fare better as women in accepted transgender roles such as ladyboys. Men who are too masculine to pass as women, on the other hand, would be shunned if they tried to do so. Countries such as the U.S. and U.K., on the other hand, place more value on individual expression and personal choice and are therefore more tolerant of both effeminate men and masculine MtF transsexuals.

'Gay' VS 'trans' acceptance? Hard to argue 'stats'!

Anyone ever watch "The Pyramid Code", especially part 4 and 5? True HIGH STATUS for a born male Egyptian Pharaoh was denoted by the wearing of a woman's wig? One must be initiated and grow into True Spirit Sense it doesn't necessarily occur 'naturally' (LOL at least not now-a-days we have become so increasingly 'unbalanced' & 'divided')

Quote from: Tessa James on January 05, 2014, 02:30:05 AM
I'm going for alternate universe as a third option

I have always said that if free will actually exists you have to believe in magic or some multiverse mumbo jumbo (which I do actually, the multiverse thing, because choice feels to real to be an illusion.)  I don't feel like explaining that whole thought pricess though, it give me a headache.   So anyway, I think you are pretty smart :).

And regarding transness being a choice, if it is a choice for you, you are dealing with something very different than I am, which is fine if so.  You can just read what L2L said to find out why I know it isn't a choice for me.

Quote from: Tessa James on January 05, 2014, 02:30:05 AM
I'm going for alternate universe as a third option

OK. But not sure how that relates contextually to the mind-body problem to which I referred (as in a person's mind being independent of all physical influences).

QuoteAnd regarding transness being a choice, if it is a choice for you, you are dealing with something very different than I am

What if when you were born, you were only exposed to others of your birth gender, raised and nurture with no societal mandates on what it meant to be a particular gender? You didn't even know there were just a thing as females. Would you still feel the same? How about the same situation but raised with just the opposite gender, but still no societal mandates?

Nothing? No difference?

Maybe the numerous experiences we have, good and bad, has consequences. Maybe one set of experiences makes one person unsure and another set of experiences makes another person absolute in their view, but maybe they were born equally trans.  Or maybe the unsure person is more trans!  :D :D

I don't think anybody knows. Or maybe it is a parallel alternate universe...

I think if raised by members of the opposite body sex, the difference would become obvious when puberty hit if not sooner.

Quote from: Nikko on January 05, 2014, 03:14:33 PM
What if when you were born, you were only exposed to others of your birth gender, raised and nurture with no societal mandates on what it meant to be a particular gender?...

I don't think anybody knows.

There are all sorts of thought experiments covering this subject, going right back to the brain-in-a-vat experiment. But there are also real life cases from which we can extrapolate the sorts of results that you seek.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis
OK. But not sure how that relates contextually to the mind-body problem to which I referred (as in a person's mind being independent of all physical influences).

Without references to cosmology or the supernatural and in respect to the tangible world I must agree that it seems we are most completely a product of nature and nurture.  I do not think there is any evidence to suggest our minds exist separate from our bodies and the physical world we are part of.

We do like to talk about our "choices" about coming out, transitioning, presentations, surgery and more.  Many of us do feel we are deeply compelled to move in one direction or another.  We note some here also consider being transgender distinctly separate from accepting a linear course of action.  How much of our behavior is predetermined?  If choice really is an illusion then we have created an elaborate system to enshrine it with a seemingly infinite number of philosophies, religions and psych folks willing to help us "choose" a better way? 

With prompting from Nikko;  I think that is one reason we love fantasy and sci fi stories and tell ourselves "if we can imagine it we can make it real"   Oh really ??? ??? ;)

Quote from: Tessa James on January 05, 2014, 03:40:40 PM
If choice really is an illusion then we have created an elaborate system to enshrine it with a seemingly infinite number of philosophies, religions and psych folks willing to help us "choose" a better way? 

Yes, I think this is exactly the social environment in which we live. The one consolation we have is that even if we do live in a deterministic universe, the illusion of free-will is so strong that it's hard to process it as anything else. 

Quote"if we can imagine it we can make it real"   Oh really ??? ??? ;)

Yep, agreed, that's a pretty big fallacy right there.

Quote from: Tessa James on January 04, 2014, 02:16:07 PM
It may just be hubris that allows me to believe that we exercise choices to make the best of what we get from nature and nurture.

A Buddhist teaching comes to mind here, one that allows room for nature, nurture, and choice/free will. It's called the Twelve Nidanas and - bypassing all the fussy bits - it boils down to this:

In moment to moment existence, there is one instant in which we are able to exercise free will. Once the fullness our given experience has arisen, influenced as it is by nature and/or nurture, we have an opportunity to choose between opening to this experience or closing it down in one way or another. This is about it. The entire Buddhist journey can pretty much be understood as a progressive broadening/deepening our opening to the given of our lives.

From this point of view, being trans - and my specific experience of this situation - is a given in my life. My main work with this involves opening to the experience again and again, opening to this as much as I possibly can, and seeing where it takes me. Easier said than done, of course, but in those moment I am able to meet this challenge, oddly enough, life is okay.

Quote from: Tanya W
The entire Buddhist journey can pretty much be understood as a progressive broadening/deepening our opening to the given of our lives.

I like that "opening to the given" concept.  Many buddhist practices such as mindfulness and meditation are very helpful without the trappings of dogmatic religion.

Part of my personal challenge is i really do want to be believe in the essence of choice.  I want to believe we are creative beings and that there really is "something new under the sun."

How do we reconcile the simple "choices" we sometimes make with the results of a coin toss?

Absolute determinism feels like it will rob me of romance and more.

A fun discussion

Scenarios where we are not ruled by determinism are too convoluted and too unprovable to pass occams razor, but I still feel very much inclined to believe in one of them because free will feels too real to me to believe it is an illusion.

But every event is directly tied to the preceding moment, every synaptic reaction is determined by the foregoing stimuli, every emotional response you have is filtered through the experience, knowledge, and memories that you have accrued. It's really hard to rationally imagine a reality that allows us to step outside of the inked chain of events going on and act independently on it without needing paragraphs to explain it, but sometimes reality is not simply the most probable choice.  Sometimes reality is astounding and fantastical and complex.

Quote from: Jen on January 06, 2014, 03:01:59 PM
But every event is directly tied to the preceding moment, every synaptic reaction is determined by the foregoing stimuli, every emotional response you have is filtered through the experience, knowledge, and memories that you have accrued. It's really hard to rationally imagine a reality that allows us to step outside of the inked chain of events going on and act independently on it

I suspect this is what the Buddhist/Nidanas teaching mentioned earlier is pointing toward - the cosmos are just so darn interconnected/interdependent that it is very difficult to imagine any of us independently creating any of it! We are just far too embedded in the web of being for 'independence'.

All of which sounds like a bummer until one realizes this fact makes each of our lives a completely unique manifestation of the universe in this moment - never happened before, will never happen again. In opening to the given, then, as it arises in our lives - the one slice of free will we do have - we allow the cosmos to give voice to itself. We literally are a song of the universe!

Personally, I find this affirming for everyone - especially, however, for any of us who might for whatever reason feel devalued and marginalized in this world.       

Buddhist thinking always seems to have a warm and calming effect on me.  I really like it :).

To me this issue is resolved and entirely irrelevant.

Some people do choose to change. Consciously, purposely and simply because it is a preference. IMHO most wont go to the extent of permanent and irreversible surgeries. This does not make them any more or less legitimate, worthwhile or worthy of equality and respect.

But that is not the case for people like me. I dearly wish I had not needed to change. Just like I wish I never had colon cancer. Being transsexual is a condition, treatable but not curable. I dont know why it happens and in fact I dont think anyone does. But the fact of it, the fact that it exists and is a legitimate medical condition with life threatening consequences when left untreated to me is undeniable. It is something you are born with, not something learned or influenced by upbringing.

I was incarcerated for three years at CAMH and systematically tortured with electric shocks, caning, sexual abuse and sound detterence. It didnt work. It didnt work any better than reparative therapy stopped men from being gay. It didnt work because I was meant to be born female and no amount of torture can change that any more than it can change your IQ.

This subject is very sensitive to me. We must be very careful not to turn a deadly life threatening condition into an intellectual debate. Radfem thinking is evil, as are they.

Quote from: SunKat on January 05, 2014, 06:37:37 AM
I don't see why it has to be nature or nurture.  Why can't it be nature and nurture. 

We are the sum of all of our parts... from the cultures we're born into to the hormonal, neural transmitter laden soup that runs through our veins.  We are the result of choices we've made and burdens we've carried.  We're both the DNA that formed us and the parents and peers that helped form our opinions.

I think its OK for us to be complex beings and I resist the notion that there has to be a single simple "WHY" for how we come to be transgendered. 

For myself... transgender is something I've been for longer than I can remember.  It's something that occurred without any conscious choice on my part.
For others... it may have happened later in life when you made a choice that you preferred a lifestyle as the opposite gender.

However it came about... whether through biology, socialization, spirituality, free will or any combination of the above... we've all arrived at this place in our own unique way and I don't see why any one of the narratives about how we've gotten here should invalidate the others or lessen our right to be just as we are or have chosen to be.

Yes, sunny kitty, you are right it is nature and nurture and choice....

The biomedical evidence indicate certain brain-genetic wiring predisposes some of us to be psychopaths. This is just one example of the Nature side of thing

The medical data base also indicates that a "toxic" and traumatic environment can shape your brain so you end-up as a psychopath. Another example is war induced PTSD, right? These are but two examples of the Nurture side of things.

So, to what degree the "free will" or "will power" or what ever you want to call "cognizant volition" can modify, repress, or enhance the nature and/or nurture driven behaviors?

Well, I think I am a good example to analyze their interplays -if any

... I played a perfect male role by repressing my inner female, this was "my choice;"

I was molded in certain male behaviors by the imposed rearing conditions (this was the nurturing environmental effects );

and finally, here I am at the end of my life driven by my innate inner genetically female (My Nature).

So you see, in the case of my GID, no Nurturing or "choice" had any effect on my innate inner female Nature.

The questions then is: what behaviors can be modified by nurturing, which are dominated by nature, and how "choice" affects them....



   

Quote from: amber1964 on January 06, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
To me this issue is resolved and entirely irrelevant.

Some people do choose to change. Consciously, purposely and simply because it is a preference. IMHO most wont go to the extent of permanent and irreversible surgeries. This does not make them any more or less legitimate, worthwhile or worthy of equality and respect.

But that is not the case for people like me. I dearly wish I had not needed to change. Just like I wish I never had colon cancer. Being transsexual is a condition, treatable but not curable. I dont know why it happens and in fact I dont think anyone does. But the fact of it, the fact that it exists and is a legitimate medical condition with life threatening consequences when left untreated to me is undeniable. It is something you are born with, not something learned or influenced by upbringing.

I was incarcerated for three years at CAMH and systematically tortured with electric shocks, caning, sexual abuse and sound detterence. It didnt work. It didnt work any better than reparative therapy stopped men from being gay. It didnt work because I was meant to be born female and no amount of torture can change that any more than it can change your IQ.

This subject is very sensitive to me. We must be very careful not to turn a deadly life threatening condition into an intellectual debate. Radfem thinking is evil, as are they.

I think there are two conversations happening concurrently in this thread.  First is responding to the OP about whether or no being trans is a conscious choice, to which almost everybody, or maybe everybody, has said no def not a choice for me.  Second is the intellectual debate about whether free will even exists in the first place, which is tangentially related to the OP for sure but not really related to being trans at all.

Both are, like you say, mostly irrelevant, and the former, even the idea of it is dangerous with conversion therapy still being a thing, and with the hatred and violence that comes out of the idea that we could change if we wanted to.  So mmm yes, I agree with you, mostly.

I feel the need to offer a small apology. My response was sharp and I dont think the other posters intended harm with what was an intellectual debate. But it is a debate I have heard before, not so intellectual, one essentially used as a justification to deny that we are legitimate and are in desperate need of medical intervention.

If anyone cares to see what I mean go over to a blog called "Gender Trender". I warn you though, it is not a nice place and a certain amount of detachment is needed in order to read through the hate filled filth they post there.

I love this topic , it is fascinating , although now I am going thru some very severe gender identity issues , I just yesterday had a shock when I felt that I am not a (trans) girl for real but some form of a ->-bleeped-<- . I really want being a girl , but that Is the problem , am I a girl or I just want to do it because of some fetishes/obsession/fascination of feeling like a girl . I am so messed up right now , that I don't even know what I think , I don't know if the perceptions I got are real , or if they are corrupted by some other brain/chemical/personality  mechanisms.
To be more clear , I always ,at least in the last 5-10 years , envied (I don't know if that terms is appropriate , or denaturate the idea even more ) girls , not just in a typical crossdressing way , but I wanted their lives . It is like in a pic I saw today : " I want to be you " . I was ok with that for a while , although I had many struggles of who I really am , then yesterday I found some articles and they really blew my mind in the worst case possible ( I posted a topic about right now , it is about the 2d:4d rapport , the ->-bleeped-<- theories and how I felt that all this explained my struggles and now I feel like a man even I don't want to ) .

Now I feel that maybe I am a ->-bleeped-<- , and I feel so dirty , guilty , non-genuine , non-worthy , I despise myself .
I feel that is a choice to live as a girl (although it isn't about just sex  , I want the whole experience ) and that that is a bad thing including for the real girls . I feel  that I am a shame for the trans community , I want so bad to feel like a girl , and that is the problem , I id-ed myself as a boy for the most of the time , although I was very sensitive , non-aggressive , .. . I didn't live a boy life but I didn't really wanted a girl one until the arriving of the concepts of sexual role , looks , the acceptance in  society and the great (in my opinion) life of a girl .
I didn't hate my body  like many girls did , I was having 'hero' fantasies of being a macho and being appreciated and impressing  girls , I enjoyed my penis (maybe because I am a very erotic person , my first memories are sexual related , I always had sex lust).

Maybe it is because I like woman too (in fact I kinda like androgynous people , I like man that are very effeminate in looks and behavior , and trans girls but I always felt more attracted about the ones who had some male features on their face and even personality )
That confuse me even more , how do I am  and how do I want to be?
Because I can't seem to make a real difference in liking girls as partners or as buddies/models for me .

I feel so bad , I am panicked , depressed , very very scared ..
Until yesterday , although I had struggles , I was believing that I am a girl
and I was trying and believing that I could enhance my feminity

Yesterday I have this shock
and now I feel like I id with a man , a crossdresser , I don't allow
rationally I don't allow to see as a girl because science that I am not
it is complicated
in a way , recently I have been the same
it is just the perception , the acceptance and allowing being/feeling/id/looking for similarities with a girl
I don't know if it is normal to have a perception about "girls " in a different way that your own self id , but also I don't know if my gender identity was affected by the pressure of the society when I grew up and also I felt that I enhanced  very much into perceiving me as a real girl
Until yesterday..
Maybe I was a man and I developed gender dysphoria , who knows ?

Anyway , the main idea , related with this topic
is that since yesterday I feel that for me it is a bit of a choice
to live as a girl for accomplish my life goals (including career) and fantasies and I can't seem to be ok with that

I always thought in a way that transition is a choice , not only for me, that it is possible to live the way you were born , and that scares me a lot too , maybe I never understood trans people ,  maybe I just understood ->-bleeped-<-s , with less gender identity as a normal woman but more a sexual and fetishistic one .
I am scared that I didn't think as a woman , that I am a woman , at least not as much as others
For me , I feel the only way is to be a very feminine woman.

Now , I somehow blocked the whole idea of being a girl , I have some painfully cold chills  that I will have to live as a man and I could do that .
It will be no pleasure
but that is who I am
who the universe created
rather than correcting myself by choice , for satisfying some wishes (especially that they are related with the 'bad' area of sex)
I feel that the society is right not accepting me because I am not that way by nature but I choose to live like this
It is mindblowing , I can't seem to get any peace of mind , the one that is reachable is to try live as a man , but I don't want that , I don't want to kill my wishes and detour my thoughts into some job or career .
I guess that says something about " me "  , the true self , but it is still complicated 


I feel  like I have some kind of addiction and that I should suppress it rather than expecting the society to accept it .
I am so messed up right now
that I really feel the death is the only choice

I can't really see a way out of this
I plan to see a therapist when I go back in my country , in a few weeks , but I don't have much hopes .
For me the only good solution would be that someone encourage me that despite all the scientific evidences and theories , I am a girl , I have a real gender dysphoria , and that I am entitled to follow this road and enhance my feminity .



I don't like living as a man , I don't associate with them anymore , over the years I accumulate the perceptions of all the stuff I am different from them ,but I don't accept choosing how to live - it feels non genuine .
I am really obsessive so , even if it sounds a simple problem , for me is so hard .

Anyway , that is just me , a messed up person .

Quoteit is about the 2d:4d rapport

I question the quality of the research because the sampling cannot possibly be truly representative, but even if you have an extreme digit ratio, a gender identification is only a tendency, not an absolute truth.  I have a digit ratio that places me very far on the "female" side, but the probability of a person with that digit ratio being a woman was still only about 75% (incidentally, I'm androgyne, so the study was invalid for me anyway).  In your case, even if you're really deep in the deep on the man side of things, maybe all the way to the point that 90% of the people in that position are men, that still leaves 10% who are women. 

In your case, with the you pain you feel about living as a man and the depth of your attachment to identifying as a woman, you are most likely a woman, and you are definitely not a man (there is an "other" category that you may fall into if you're not familiar with all the alternatives).  Your testimony is more reliable and certain than some silly test about finger lengths.  Your feelings about who you are are the beginning and end of it.  You mentioned in another thread that you felt that someone may pursue being a woman because it would be advantageous, but you wouldn't be mulling over transition, feel depressed, and worry about your career if being a woman was easy.  I promise you that living as a woman is not the "easy" path, especially being born with male parts (TV shows may say women have it easy, but TV is broadly controlled by men who want to tell men what they want to hear and don't mind making women feel guilty in the process).  In that respect, you're already getting experience knowing how women are told to feel about themselves, because cis-women are also told they're not good enough as women.

You don't get to choose how you feel about who you are.  However, you can choose how you want to live.  The decision to transition or to not transition is a choice you must make for yourself.  You are not required to transition to be a woman, because there are many reasons why you feel you cannot do so, and you have to be confident that you will be happy with the results.  However, you do still seem to be a woman, so I think you should continue to think of yourself as one.

This is a really rich discussion which mirrors much of the internal dialog and self analysis and criticism I have had.  Not sure if this adds to the very insightful comments already made but nature feels more comfortable so I am more accepting of this theory.  Nurture makes me feel uneasy as it makes me feel that but for others I wouldn't be this way.   Separately my response to hrt was not in any way a placebo effect - intense dysphoria instantly disappeared, nothing, nada, gone which for me pointed to nature as the most likely explanation of my state.
Choice for me relates to how I choose to understand an experience.  In general I select the paradigm which fits me best ie that with which I am most comfortable and that is normally the one which is kindest to myself and to others.  Until the adopted paradigm is rejected either conclusively by society or I accept/adopt/evolve or embrace an alternate paradigm then this is my understanding.   So in my case I am most comfortable with (intellectually and emotionally) with a nature explanation of my reality, I choose this explanation and within self defined or imposed boundaries I choose how I will deal with it, I think.
Of course if choice is an illusion and this has all been predestined then I am kidding myself.  Not knowing how to prove which is true I again to choose choice as this possible illusion works best for me at this stage of my life/development/path/experience/ramble et al