Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi, I am an androgyne but finding it hard too come to terms if you will. I can't come out. It really came unexpected if you will of me now defining myself as androgyne because in that I was just playing around on the internet. Basically I communicate like a woman instead of my bioligical gender which is male but I feel still more masculine than feminine in terms of the way I talk. Physically, I even thought one about it in High School that I could be a woman in a way but I did brush that idea off because at the time because I never heard of the term of androgyne. I don;t think I would want be fully a woman because I;m happy with my gentalia and do not want breasts or too wear womens undergarments(thats just too weird for me.) Wearing my hair like a female is something I thought of but I can;t do it now because of the business field that I work in wouldn;t allow it I don;t think(not for a guy anyway.)

Even if I never show any of my femminity externally I still want to be known as an androgyne well because thats what I am. I don't think I can ever accept my self as a complete man because I would be kidding myself because I should be proud to be female too right? The questions is how do you come to terms with being an andgroyne and maybe be even ready to come out? I was actually happy at first to know what I really was gender wise but now I;m finding it hard too accept. I was actually hear a month ago as a guest but was not ready to post anything yet. Another question is I am straight so how hard will women take it in relationships if I come out to them about my gender status? Maybe dating (male to female TS's) would be a good route too since I think they would be more than understanding about it. afterall some MTF TS's can be beautiful.

Hi Chillin,

   Welcome to Susan's!
   You will find some interesting people here who you can exchange ideas and opinions with. Please write an intro for the introductions section of the forum. It will give everybody a better chance to discover you here and it can help you to broaden the kind of feedback you receive. You can jump over there with this
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html)

   Answers don't come easy for androgynes. Each person ends up having to decide for their self what will work for them.
   One of the issues that you may have seen in other threads is our apparent invisibility. You can be in a room full of people and feel like nobody sees you because they can't or don't understand who you really are. This is an ongoing discussion because there is no obvious answer beyond us all wearing a sign and broadcasting it.

   One thing that may help you is to mix up some traditionally feminine accessories in with your wardrobe.  I mean, if you wear some bracelets or necklaces, you can express yourself fairly easily.  The hair idea sounds really good, but only if you can get away with it at work.  You may be able to find some men's shirts that are not overly masculine. Some jackets can look stylish while letting you feel more feminine.

   I'm not the person who can help you with women, so you'll have to wait for help on that one.


Peace,

Rebecca

Quote from: RebeccaFog on July 08, 2007, 01:19:13 PM
Hi Chillin,

   Welcome to Susan's!
   You will find some interesting people here who you can exchange ideas and opinions with. Please write an intro for the introductions section of the forum. It will give everybody a better chance to discover you here and it can help you to broaden the kind of feedback you receive. You can jump over there with this
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html)

   Answers don't come easy for androgynes. Each person ends up having to decide for their self what will work for them.
   One of the issues that you may have seen in other threads is our apparent invisibility. You can be in a room full of people and feel like nobody sees you because they can't or don't understand who you really are. This is an ongoing discussion because there is no obvious answer beyond us all wearing a sign and broadcasting it.

   One thing that may help you is to mix up some traditionally feminine accessories in with your wardrobe.  I mean, if you wear some bracelets or necklaces, you can express yourself fairly easily.  The hair idea sounds really good, but only if you can get away with it at work.  You may be able to find some men's shirts that are not overly masculine. Some jackets can look stylish while letting you feel more feminine.

   I'm not the person who can help you with women, so you'll have to wait for help on that one.


Peace,

Rebecca

Yes Rebecca it is very hard too interact in a group of people for me(you almost read my mind on that one.) I have felt that way since High School. Thanks for the necklace and bracelet idea. As for the jackets your suggesting that I may feel a little more feminine do I find them in a womans sections of a clothing department or the mens(maybe a stupid question but I would like to know?)

Answers truly do not come easily for us.  Every androgyne is a different mix of male/female or lack of either, or constantly shifting blend.

In my case, the only answer I can come up with is for myself.  My own answers will not help you.  All I can do is tell youthat when you look into yourself, you can find your answers.  Perhaps an effeminate metrosexual look would work for you?  I've seen a few businessmen wearing pale pink shirts with their suits, or pink and grey ties. 

Quote from: chillin on July 08, 2007, 01:45:04 PM
Yes Rebecca it is very hard too interact in a group of people for me(you almost read my mind on that one.) I have felt that way since High School. Thanks for the necklace and bracelet idea. As for the jackets your suggesting that I may feel a little more feminine do I find them in a womans sections of a clothing department or the mens(maybe a stupid question but I would like to know?)

  It's not a stupid question.  Ideally, I would say you can look in either the men's or the women's section. The secret you have stumbled upon that will have much meaning for you, is that you are no longer limited in where you shop and for what. It will depend upon your personal comfort level as time goes on.
  Womens clothing is harder to buy if you are a male with wide shoulders or other male type body dimensions. You can find 'soft' jackets sometimes in the male section. They're harder to find, though. Sometimes you have to hit a lot of stores. By 'soft', I mean styled in a softer way than the more masculine clothing. I like longer jackets with extra long sleeves when I can find them.

  Everybody is different, though.

Quote from: RebeccaFog on July 08, 2007, 02:10:49 PM

Quote from: chillin on July 08, 2007, 01:45:04 PM
Yes Rebecca it is very hard too interact in a group of people for me(you almost read my mind on that one.) I have felt that way since High School. Thanks for the necklace and bracelet idea. As for the jackets your suggesting that I may feel a little more feminine do I find them in a womans sections of a clothing department or the mens(maybe a stupid question but I would like to know?)

  It's not a stupid question.  Ideally, I would say you can look in either the men's or the women's section. The secret you have stumbled upon that will have much meaning for you, is that you are no longer limited in where you shop and for what. It will depend upon your personal comfort level as time goes on.
  Womens clothing is harder to buy if you are a male with wide shoulders or other male type body dimensions. You can find 'soft' jackets sometimes in the male section. They're harder to find, though. Sometimes you have to hit a lot of stores. By 'soft', I mean styled in a softer way than the more masculine clothing. I like longer jackets with extra long sleeves when I can find them.

  Everybody is different, though.

Oh cool I can shop in the womens section now too! That should be fun actually! Rebecca my body is like a petite female but without breasts . One of my field supervisors at my job was shocked and said you are girl size(after telling him I was)because I had to get a new shirt for my job. One of my Moms shirts fitted me good a couple weeks ago and she said you stole my shirt.

Hello

Androgyny is a bit hard. I  found it easy to accept, the alternative was to go full female or feel trapped. But working out how to do that is a real difficult thing. I am learning that it's fun to ignore gender and do whatever is natural. I spent lunch time eating salad and drinking rose wine and the night watching xmen and drinking guiness.

Personally, I wouldn't bother coming out, its hard to understand, but if you play a little and people ask, just say your trying things out. To be honest people rarely notice.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 08, 2007, 04:50:01 PM
Hello

Androgyny is a bit hard. I  found it easy to accept, the alternative was to go full female or feel trapped. But working out how to do that is a real difficult thing. I am learning that it's fun to ignore gender and do whatever is natural. I spent lunch time eating salad and drinking rose wine and the night watching xmen and drinking guiness.

Personally, I wouldn't bother coming out, its hard to understand, but if you play a little and people ask, just say your trying things out. To be honest people rarely notice.

Ya I think about going full female sometimes too but it just wouldn;t work out for me. I do think its fun to ignore gender but I am what I am, your right though not coming out maybe the best thing for now anyway because afterall I am just coming to terms with my new gender status. I just might play with some jewlery to wear like Rebecca said before pretty soon anyway because the female in me needs to be expressed.

We're glad to have you hear among us.

I think the biggest piece of advice that could be offered (as its been stated already) is find your comfort zone and just go with what feels right for you. You may find yourself in a very different place then you intended when you started but if you stay true to yourself you'll go where you need to go.

Good luck on your journey and may it a pleasant one.

I look foward to hearing your comments on other posts in the future.

Marq and Mia

QuoteEven if I never show any of my femminity externally I still want to be known as an androgyne well because thats what I am.

Yes this is a popular dilema as Rebecca said in the earlier post. Even those that dress androgynous in different degrees, even dress fully as one or the other have the problem as zythyra aptly pointed out, as well as many others in the androgyne invisibility post at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15591.0.html.

Tay wrote a letter for Tay's best friend at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15591.msg119662.html#msg119662 in that post which I think is a great idea. One can learn much from the strategies gays, lesbians, and transsexuals use to come out to family members, coworkers, and friends using such tools like coming out letters. Certainly being an androgyne does present a slightly different  probably less known terminology and  descriptions. Hopefully some great ideas through this and other discussions can lead to wonderful ideas, unique to androgynes, in revealing our unique and individualized feelings.

And even ideas like no_id's journal entry http://www.acornrack.com/no_id/ and some of Marq and Mia's posts in hir blog https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,192.0.html are some examples that pop in my head of great writings to share others to explain how you feel and are.

QuoteThe questions is how do you come to terms with being an andgroyne and maybe be even ready to come out? I was actually happy at first to know what I really was gender wise but now I;m finding it hard too accept.

I think only self exploration and interacting with the world with that self knowledge can only lead to self acceptance. Its sorta a self "trust" or "knowledge" that you are the person you think you are.

If one is having problem even after self knowledge and self trust, then common steps such as this might help or something like this.

QuoteProcess Of Acceptance
Acceptance exists at the core of your being. It is your default status. In order to reach this base level of acceptance, you need only remove the items laying on top. To do this, you must first identify all the things you do not accept about yourself. Then, one by one, eliminate them by examinging and questioning your beliefs around that issue.

Know yourself and your beliefs
Take a good hard look at your honesty level
Know you are doing the best you can
Relax your value judgments
Examine guilt
Understand your motivations
Ask yourself questions about what you don't accept

I just found this on a religion sharing page, but some of the principles can be used since androgyny can be as foriegn to others as 2 different religions.

QuoteACCEPTANCE 101
(Remembering Trust of Self)

1. Acknowledge that I am within physical focus, that I choose to belong here, that I am here and that I am a glorious being.

2. Acknowledge that within physical focus I hold belief systems. They are not good or bad. They do not need changing or eliminating. They may be accepted as they are my reality.

3. Observe myself within each moment, recognizing that I hold great duplicity and am not acknowledging of myself throughout my day.

4. Notice each time I discount myself. I need not be concerned with other individuals, or my other focuses, only myself in this physical focus.

5. Acknowledge my impressions and follow through on my impulses not concerning myself with others or their perception of me.

6. Notice the language that I use. This will show me examples of how I discount and compare myself to others.

7. Notice my responses, acknowledging that they reflect my beliefs and remembering I choose how to respond.

8. Look to myself and recognize that I am my essence, and that I offer helpfulness to myself at all times.

QuoteACCEPTANCE 102
(Remembering Trust of "Others")

0. Engage the present. Take initiative.

1. An individual approaches me with inquiries with regard to their experiences and in relation to their belief systems.

2. Do not respond initially.

3. Access through listening, engaging my inner senses also, taking into account belief systems of both myself and others.

4. Respond intuitively.

5. Arrange language to be accommodating and accepting of another's belief systems as mine are the same, we are just using different words.

6. Remind myself that the point is not to change the perception or belief system of another.

7. The point is to offer information in a helpful manner and not being responsible for another's reality.

8. Their reality is their reality and Reality. They are not experiencing unusualness, non-reality or lunacy.

9. Engage the present. Take initiative.

QuoteI am straight so how hard will women take it in relationships if I come out to them about my gender status? Maybe dating (male to female TS's) would be a good route too since I think they would be more than understanding about it. afterall some MTF TS's can be beautiful.

MtF TS I have read several great ones here at Susan's. As long as the orientations match up with gender identities. As well as the many other factors that it takes to be attracted and match up with each other. Local gender identity meeting places, events, might help there. Or your local GLBT places.

Not sure about the understanding. Maybe more of awareness. Though there are some that understand, there may be some that actually find acceptance and even attraction. I am not sure. Dont know any facts or experiences to support that idea.

I don't think that "coming out" is all that important.  What is most important is accepting yourself as who you are.  What is second in importance is having others that you care about accept you for who you are.  If you allow yourself to express yourself in an androgynous manner then "coming out" will take care of itself.

Gender expression and sexual orientation are not at all the same thing.  I am an androgynous heterosexual male crossdresser (see if you can find that one on the chart that is the subject of another recent post  >:D).  My wife is attracted to me (or so she says) in part because I am androgynous and not at all the typical hyper-masculine male.  I have seen studies that suggest that androgynous men tend to have more stable and happier marriages.

Quote from: Louise on July 09, 2007, 01:43:02 PM
I don't think that "coming out" is all that important.  What is most important is accepting yourself as who you are.  What is second in importance is having others that you care about accept you for who you are.  If you allow yourself to express yourself in an androgynous manner then "coming out" will take care of itself.

Brilliant and succinct advice I think.

(I may be wrong of course....:) )

Coming out isn't much of an issue for androgyny.  I don't really talk about gender issues much.  In fact, most people don't even notice my lack of a gender role.  Little kids always seem to notice, however.  They often say things related to my behavior.  Occasionally, they will "mistake" me for a girl, even though I don't look like one.

I find that if I don't pay much attention to gender roles, other people generally don't ask.  If they do, I just say that I felt like behaving a certain way or doing a certain thing.  Most people stop asking questions at that point.  They usually don't really want to know why I wanted a stuffed animal, or why I'm sitting crosslegged.  They just wanted to try to pigeonhole me into a gender role, and they tend to back down as soon as they realize I'm not going to be trifled with.

Thank you for all your posts. The reason it is hard to accept being an an androgyne is because I have been living as a 100% man my entire life and now I feel the need to express myself externally so the trnsition is going to be a little awkward for me. I also think about how will people see me and what impresssion will I give to off to them my femenazation process is complete?? Will they make fun of me as well? I know ken/Kendra posted some of my concerns on his/her last post on this thread but I did think about once my femenzation is complete how beautful looking I am going to look and allways thought how not good looking I was/am as a guy as compared to other guys because I don;t feel like other women were/are attracted to me.

Quote from: chillin on July 10, 2007, 05:18:45 PM
Thank you for all your posts. The reason it is hard to accept being an an androgyne is because I have been living as a 100% man my entire life and now I feel the need to express myself externally so the trnsition is going to be a little awkward for me.

Ok the first thing you want to remain true to is the real you. As long as you do, this everything (from an internal peace/internal acceptance) will be ok. You can try tons of stuff, but if its not right for you, dont continue doing it. Just a tragedy of denying your true self, is evolving into another fake self. So with that in mind, as long as you are grounded in your own reality, thats the most important thing.

I understand the need to express externally. And the need for External to feel more like the Internal. Its not for everyone, but I can tell you from my experience, I would never ever take my external away and go back to just internal. I do not regret any of my expressions at all. As long as I remain true to my internal gender self, and it remains grounded.

Another thing I did is start small. I didnt just show up one day fully all androgynous looking. My transition was step by step, one by one. Even then I dont always everyday look androgynous. But that is one option in my appearance that I can sometimes express now with confidence. Even then I am only partially androgynous looking most the time. But thats what fits me.

QuoteI also think about how will people see me and what impresssion will I give to off to them my femenazation process is complete?? Will they make fun of me as well?

Honestly they will probably talk about you behind your back. And will probably talk about any androgynous appearance. I have heard some whispers.

I go back however to my need to correspond internal and external. As long as I can express myself sometimes in my day to day living, what others say doesnt matter to much to me, because I know its grounded in reality that I know, believe, and trust.

I do make exceptions at work atm, where I know my livelyhood depends on work, not by my expression. I have dress codes, and my only objective currently is to perform well. I just started this job. I think as time goes by and I do the work well, I can express more like I did at my prior work. Have to make money to pay the bills, eat, and keep this internet/computer up so I can type posts.  :laugh:

QuoteI know ken/Kendra posted some of my concerns on his/her last post on this thread but I did think about once my femenzation is complete how beautful looking I am going to look and allways thought how not good looking I was/am as a guy as compared to other guys because I don;t feel like other women were/are attracted to me.

This may be true, I recommend as long as your beauty is grounded in your internal self. As for women attracted to you, when you trust yourself, feel confident, and remain true, is one step in attracting any potential mate. As many others say self-knowledge, self-acceptance, trust, and self-esteem is a prerequisite to any relationship.

Such articles such as:

QuoteThe Trouble with Insecurity
How those who suffer from low self-esteem sabotage their own relationships.
By:Jeff Howe

Most people seek a soul mate to love them unconditionally. But those who need such acceptance most—the terminally insecure—often sabotage their own chances at bliss.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19990501-000008.html

QuoteHealthy self-esteem is based on our ability to assess ourselves accurately (know ourselves) and still be able to accept and to value ourselves unconditionally. This means being able to realistically acknowledge our strengths and limitations (which is part of being human) and at the same time accepting ourselves as worthy and worthwhile without conditions or reservations.

http://www.utexas.edu/student/cmhc/booklets/selfesteem/selfest.html

Quote"Only when we reveal ourselves can we be truly loved." - Robin Norwood

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 11, 2007, 04:44:03 AM
Ok the first thing you want to remain true to is the real you. As long as you do, this everything (from an internal peace/internal acceptance) will be ok. You can try tons of stuff, but if its not right for you, dont continue doing it. Just a tragedy of denying your true self, is evolving into another fake self. So with that in mind, as long as you are grounded in your own reality, thats the most important thing.

I understand the need to express externally. And the need for External to feel more like the Internal. Its not for everyone, but I can tell you from my experience, I would never ever take my external away and go back to just internal. I do not regret any of my expressions at all. As long as I remain true to my internal gender self, and it remains grounded.

Another thing I did is start small. I didnt just show up one day fully all androgynous looking. My transition was step by step, one by one. Even then I dont always everyday look androgynous. But that is one option in my appearance that I can sometimes express now with confidence. Even then I am only partially androgynous looking most the time. But thats what fits me.

Good post.. Thanks Ken/Kendra.  I've been struggling with the Internal / External quite "long" time. Based on your mail and my own experience (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15675.0.html), I think I've done things maybe too fast. I feel that it's  currently easier to concentrate on the External so that I can find the "real me". At the same time I'm also afraid that others see my little transitions.

Well  I have come to terms with my androgyne self but have not done anything externally yet for an androgynous appearence.

Quote from: chillin on July 28, 2007, 05:30:15 PM
Well  I have come to terms with my androgyne self but have not done anything externally yet for an androgynous appearence.

You have time.  Go at your own pace and keep yourself well.  :)


Rebis

Quote from: chillin on July 28, 2007, 05:30:15 PM
Well  I have come to terms with my androgyne self but have not done anything externally yet for an androgynous appearence.

Great.

Just have fun being whomever you are, or whoever feels natural. If you "always wanted or were curious" to try something, thats the normal cue. If something catches your eye a bit. Then go for it. Urges sorta come out naturally like that, then you can choose later whats good and whats wrong.

Like I had always wanted my ears pierced. So I just decided one day, that I would go for it. I dont regret it. Other things I have tried were not so good. Like the 5 inch heels. But at least I tried it. Even the full androgynous dressed was fun for me. Funner than when I tried all fem dress or all masculine tux, to me at least it was.

Well today I thought about my looks and they do reflect me as an androyne. My eyes look like they could fit a female face(since I am a male biollogically) but by my eyes do look great on me. I used to be unhappy about my upper body because it is skinny but my upper body does reflect my indentity perfectly as an androyne. I do believe my face does have has a good combo of both feminine and masculine qualities to it. I know this might sound weird but overall I have a good balance female and male characteristics overall with my body/face.

BTW, Tonight I looked at my Mom at the dinner table and I have her lips, nose I think(she has the same side profile on the tip of the nose that I have), and eyes. I don't like my nose though the tip is too big and it has a bump on the bridge.




Posted on: August 03, 2007, 07:21:05 PM

---

Well I haven;t been on these boards in a couple weeks but I did post 1 post this morning and one a couple of hours ago. I am making progress but its progress that I am becoming more of a woman. I see female charcters on TV and I identify with the female charcacters and not the male ones and  I have felt that way before but not this strongly. As a matter fact I was watching a movie the other day abd there was a female and a male character conversng and than I thought just for kicks which character do I identify with? and of course I identified with the female character and not the male one. I see faces of business women or women newspaper columunists and I say to myself in my head my face should be like her's: I should have a female face. I hope whenever I grow out my fair to show my female side it negates the urge to have a female face. I like women with dark black hair and I am loyal to them but the woman has thought of being a blonde. What is going on with me? I was fine for the last week than over last weekend the woman in me just started to yearn to come out of her shell. I did believe the woman in me had respect and did get along with the man inside of me but she is running out of patience in that she wants to come of her shell but is not being allowed to you.

My brain sex and how I think mismatches my gender's face. Another question is those who have studied angdronogny how could I be born male but think like a female?

I went through a similar experience last year.  It was brutal.  It did pass, however.  I think it all wells up after being held back so that when you decide to go with your feelings and thoughts, it is very powerful for a time.

Quote from: Rebis on August 23, 2007, 02:36:02 PM

I went through a similar experience last year.  It was brutal.  It did pass, however.  I think it all wells up after being held back so that when you decide to go with your feelings and thoughts, it is very powerful for a time.

Well I have gotten passed the brutal week that I had 2 weeks ago but I still have my thoughts on getting a female face. I don't know though I will have to change my voice and it will change the way men and women view me if I change my face's gender. Basically, I won;t have that bond with males anymore if I go to a female face and everything that I worked hard for will go away and I will be a lesbian but on the flip side I can smile at females and they won;t think I;m trying to get with them or think I am being strange if I am smiling at them with a female face. See, I do think people think I am a nice guy but I have to dumb down my personality because like I said before I don;t want to scare females with smiling at them and currently living in a 100% male body. I guess maybe I want to carry myself like more of a female on a day to day basis but losing the bond with males also scares me to death. I think I am more of a Female Tom Boy because I would never dress as a full fledged female I would dress the way I do now: jeans, T-Shirt: thats it.