Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Lately I've seen several threads in which one person observes that trans* people (mostly transwomen) are not the same as cispeople (specifically ciswomen).  This usually seems to end up with one person giving a thumbs down on the reputation system to the one who said it.  And sometimes is followed by the person who got the thumbs down getting a thumbs down for giving them a thumbs down.

But can we just have an honest and frank conversation about the issue?  Perhaps we could agree to not give anyone thumbs up or thumbs down for the purposes of this one thread just so we can talk about it.  It's an issue that I, for one, find very troublesome to understand in my own life and I'd really like it if we could just talk through it.  It would really help me.  And it might help others too. 

I understand myself as a person who was basically socialized female, tried to absorb male socialization, have up, and that's how I found myself where I am.  This creates issues for me in the trans* community because people tend to assume I was born biologically male, socialized male, and the transitioned to female and tried very hard to conform to female social norms.  In reality, I would say the opposite is much more true and I do not understand myself that way at all.  I'm just reverting to how I learned to be when I was growing up. 

This affects me a main reason for me to give up trying to be a guy was the social stuff.  For example:  I went to a workplace happy hour that was in progress.  The first conversation group I came to was abut four guys talking about school hijinks that got into in their youth and other such mischief.  The conversation might as well have been Swahili.  I ended up standing there for probably 10-20 minutes.  I had absolutely nothing to contribute, no similar past experiences, and no clue what was going on.  I eventually wandered off.  The next conversation I joined was a pair of women colleagues who were talking about movies, books, and the like.  That conversation was easy.  We had the same tastes in movies.  We had read many of the same books.  But it was like being a guest.  There was this huge, gender based social divide where women lived on one side and men on another.  I couldn't fit with the men, so I couldn't live there.  But the women only saw me as a visitor so I couldn't live there.  I had no space for me to be at home.  This happened right as I was finally breaking and becoming unable to continue living in male mode and I cried about it for about 3 days.  But it was not the last time.  The same basic scenario repeated itself every time I was with a group of guys who wanted to talk about football, martial arts movies, their life histories, dating, politics, work, and so on.  It might as well have been Swahili.  I could not speak the language.  And I couldn't participate in conversations with guys as one of the guys and I could only be a guest and a foreigner, however welcome, among women.  So I had nowhere to be and ended up very alone as a result.

When I go and interact with trans* people, and especially transwomen, the same thing tends to repeat.  The male socialization and the learned behavior patterns show in transwomen.  And they seem to expect me to share that same socialization, same learned behaviors, and so on.  So the conversation turns to football, martial arts movies, life history, dating, politics, work, and so on.  And it might as well be Swahili.  And I'm again left unable to participate, say anything, or have anywhere else to belong.  Transmen tend to be closer to my wavelength, but there is a factor of "ewww, you're a girl, so you're an outsider."  And more than once, I have walked away from trans* spaces in tears.  There have been times I have almost literally had to get up and run. 

I am a trans* community organizer and advocate because no matter how you slice it, I'm affected by the same issues as anyone else on the trans* spectrum and I've gotten hurt badly because of them.  I also firmly believe that identities are real and valid and they should be respected.  And I believe in simple, basic fairness and kindness to others.  But I don't know how long I will keep it up because of this.  I have to be careful how much time I spend in trans* spaces and which ones I spend it in.  But ciswomen and their spaces are a radically different experience.  They just take me at face value and I fit right in.  The same is true with cismen.  They are a whole lot easier to deal with now that I'm no longer seen as one of them and the rules that apply to men interacting with other men do not apply to be. 

I won't get into the biological stuff here.  But there are differences in how transwomen vs ciswomen and transmen vs cismen interact with themselves and others.  Just because a transwoman identifies as a woman (and that identity should be respected) does not mean that all the learning she gained while living as male about how to be in the world suddenly vanishes into thin air when she transitions.  The same is true for transmen.  And that's true for me too.  I may have been socialized female, but I spent enough time trying to live as a man that I am a somewhat socially retarded woman in the world.  I know I act at least ten years younger than I am.

So this is me baring my soul a bit to talk about a difficult part of what my life is like.  It may or may not match up with others' experiences.  But I hope we can have an open, honest, and frank talk about it.  No one is dismissing or disrespecting anyone else's identity.  In fact, if life is a soup, then trans* people being different from cispeople is the spice that keeps that soup from being boring.  And maybe the biggest lesson of my experience is not that trans* people are different from cispeople! but that trans* people are different from one another.  No matter how you slice it, it's a good thing as long as we are willing to be honest and make room to take others at face value and give them space to just be who they are.

And can we please not get into the +1 and -1 with the reputation system?  No thumbs up or thumbs down in this thread?  Just let people talk without worrying whether people approve or disapprove of what they have to say?

Nice post.

I relate this to talking to people from different countries and culture.

People may have the same gender whatever but their life experience can be totally alien to one another. We should viva la difference, not fight over them.

I'm a trans guy, but I think the issues you are talking about are the same. What you are talking about is socialization. Males are socialized in a certain way and so are females in any society. I don't know that my socialization "took" exactly but I didn't fit in with what a lot of what women talked about, otoh, I don't really think that I socialize very well with the majority of cisguys. Kind of feel more comfortable with trans people, but it is kind of what the socialization was. We were socialized the same way. I feel being around transguys is a bit like being around gay guys and like being around gay guys (I mean those who accept us, as not all do). I was at a huge advocacy meeting and did a trans education thing. And there were a lot of gay guys and I felt more comfortable than with straight guys. But I think it's again in the socialization. I think gay guys didn't take the socialization the same way. 

I had a trans girl friend. It was rather funny as she watched the games and played the violent video games. We finally found movies we both liked but initially it was like she wanted to watch the action movies and wanted to watch dramas. These are culturally based things.



--Jay

I agree. We as transgender people are different from cisgender people. But thats not a bad thing. Which is why i stress to myself that the body isnt the main aspect of being trans. Its our brains. How we socialize, react, and think in different situations. We have a different perspective in the world, so why wouldnt we be proud of that? We are not bound to societies gender norms even if we feel our bodies should. But this leads to a shallow frame of mind that will only lead to self destruction. The only way we can be ourselves is to just let ourselves be. Dont try to fit into the norm because its useless. We do not fit the norm. I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

I am yet to go on hormones but i am a transgender female. I identify as such. I will likely be tomboyish tho i like thinking of myself as pretty. That is not something any cis person can claim.

Quote from: Emo on January 11, 2014, 12:30:24 PM
I agree. We as transgender people are different from cisgender people. But thats not a bad thing. Which is why i stress to myself that the body isnt the main aspect of being trans. Its our brains. How we socialize, react, and think in different situations. We have a different perspective in the world, so why wouldnt we be proud of that? We are not bound to societies gender norms even if we feel our bodies should. But this leads to a shallow frame of mind that will only lead to self destruction. The only way we can be ourselves is to just let ourselves be. Dont try to fit into the norm because its useless. We do not fit the norm. I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

I am yet to go on hormones but i am a transgender female. I identify as such. I will likely be tomboyish tho i like thinking of myself as pretty. That is not something any cis person can claim.

Well said Emo and Phoenix,,,we are indeed different and there is nothing wrong with that,
im a trans girl and Im proud  :)

I believe that even if we like it or not , being transgender has caused us a unique kind of pain, that pain personally made me realise that trans/gay or whatever you are you should be free to live your life in peace and happiness,,,arent most trans people like that?
really kind and carrying ?

QuoteThis creates issues for me in the trans* community because people tend to assume I was born biologically male, socialized male, and the transitioned to female and tried very hard to conform to female social norms.  In reality, I would say the opposite is much more true and I do not understand myself that way at all.  I'm just reverting to how I learned to be when I was growing up. 

Hi Phoenix,

There seems to be a tendency for some to say things like 'I never experienced male privilege', 'I was never socialized as a male' etc. But I think this is too simplistic a view. Sure, some definitely had varying degrees of socialization and privilege. For instance, I didn't have any female friends growing up and was ostracized by females. So there are a lot of things about female culture and socialization I just didn't get. I never fit in with girls, more with boys, etc, etc. But gender is so pervasive. You can never escape socialization completely even if you never hung around your birth gender.

It doesn't matter how you saw the world, a large part of socialization is simply the world's reaction to you as a perceived male or female. No matter how masculine or feminine you are. A masculine girl is never treated the same as a boy. And a feminine boy is never treated the same as a girl. A boyish girl may have been treated differently to most girls and vice versa for a feminine boy. But they are still perceived by the world as a girl and boy respectively. And that is huge. No matter how a so called 'girly boy' is treated, there is still a deep gorge between that and how girls are perceived and treated. It's not the same. Even if girls regarded you as an equal, they did not regard you the same. And vice versa for ftms. There's a big difference.

So while a trans girl may have been extremely girly during childhood and even regarded as one the girls, she shouldn't kid herself that she didn't have a vastly different experience to cis females. Because she did. The very fact she was abused for being girly speaks to the fact she was regarded as male. Being treated horribly for being feminine is not the same as being seen as a girl.

And sure, having a girly childhood, she may (or may not be) more equipped for female life than some other trans women. But it certainly doesn't mean she escaped male socialization. Sure there are varying degrees. Some guys have a lot more female socialization than I do for example. But to escape it completely, you'd have to have transitioned at birth pretty much. Kids absorb so much in the first few years of life. And gender is the biggest distinction, so we should never kid ourselves that we escaped our birth socialization.

Even if you're not as male socialized as some, you're still way more male socialized than any cis girl.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
The first conversation group I came to was abut four guys talking about school hijinks that got into in their youth and other such mischief.  The conversation might as well have been Swahili.  I ended up standing there for probably 10-20 minutes.  I had absolutely nothing to contribute, no similar past experiences, and no clue what was going on.  I eventually wandered off.  The next conversation I joined was a pair of women colleagues who were talking about movies, books, and the like.  That conversation was easy.  We had the same tastes in movies.  We had read many of the same books.  But it was like being a guest.  There was this huge, gender based social divide where women lived on one side and men on another.  I couldn't fit with the men, so I couldn't live there.  But the women only saw me as a visitor so I couldn't live there.  I had no space for me to be at home. 

Wow, I relate to this like you wouldn't believe. Even after cis women would declare me "an honorary woman" I was still an outsider. Mainstream male culture in Australia is something I've never felt comfortable with or willing to be part of. That's not to say the women I know and work with don't talk politics or sport, they just generally talk about it differently and not as blinkered.

How one is socialised is very hard to shake off and unlearn. It is literally like moving from one country to another, there are a whole lot of different customs and behaviours that are endemic and natural to the local population but sometimes quite alien and difficult to grasp for the newcomer. In Afghanistan they have a custom that allows families with no sons to pretend their eldest daughter is a son (it's a prestige thing). She is given a male name, dressed as a male and goes to school as a male...at least until she hits puberty and they start looking to marry her off. So a cis female is socialised as male, the article I read never mentioned how these girls were able to handled the quantum shift between gender roles in one of the most misogynist and gender divisive cultures on earth.

OK, since I've been immunized by OP against the dreaded thumbs down (though perhaps not the equally dreaded "you offended me"), I'll agree with what has been said here.

I don't know whether it's biology, conditioning, or some combination, but I get a distinctly male vibe from an awful lot of the transwomen I meet IRL.

What do I mean by a male vibe?

Women (in general) tend to be more comfortable with emotional vulnerability. They are comfortable with being emotionally vulnerable and are comfortable with me being emotionally vulnerable.

That's hard to find among trans women. They tend to make the types of connections I see men make and not the type that women make. There are exceptions. (Interestingly, some of the transwoman on Susan's that I've met IRL seem not to fit this pattern).

But among cis women, there is often an automatic acceptance as a fellow woman that I don't find among trans women.

Quote from: Cindy on January 11, 2014, 11:57:26 AM
I relate this to talking to people from different countries and culture.

I definitely agree!  I often describe a big part of my community job as being about explaining trans* people to cispeople and explaining cispeople to trans* people.  That really is about being a cultural intermediary.  I had a discussion I was facilitating one time where a foreign service officer was in attendance.  She came up to me after and said "oh my god, you're doing what we do with foreign countries."  It's exactly the same.  And like dealing with a foreign culture, cultural differences exist, they are real, and trying to ignore them doesn't make them go away. 

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
I'm a trans guy, but I think the issues you are talking about are the same. What you are talking about is socialization.

Exactly.  And I agree it's totally the same issue whether with transmen and transwomen.  I don't actually read the transmen or the transwomen forum as such, but I end up reading both when I click the button to see newly updated topics. 

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
Males are socialized in a certain way and so are females in any society. I don't know that my socialization "took" exactly but I didn't fit in with what a lot of what women talked about, otoh, I don't really think that I socialize very well with the majority of cisguys. Kind of feel more comfortable with trans people, but it is kind of what the socialization was. We were socialized the same way. I feel being around transguys is a bit like being around gay guys and like being around gay guys (I mean those who accept us, as not all do). I was at a huge advocacy meeting and did a trans education thing. And there were a lot of gay guys and I felt more comfortable than with straight guys. But I think it's again in the socialization. I think gay guys didn't take the socialization the same way.   

Because my socialization differs from most trans* people (time spent abroad as well as gender based stuff) I end up feeling like I stand somewhere in the middle between trans* people and cis people.  But in a way, that's sort of a microcosm of my life.  It comes from being a military brat.  I blend in easily as a social chameleon, and I am at home everywhere and nowhere.  But for some reason I cannot speak male.  That one I just can't do.  Can't do it with men.  Can't do it with transwomen.  I tend to have similar issues with extremely butch expressing lesbians too.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
I had a trans girl friend. It was rather funny as she watched the games and played the violent video games. We finally found movies we both liked but initially it was like she wanted to watch the action movies and wanted to watch dramas. These are culturally based things.

I hosted a big organizational meeting for my organization, Maryland Trans*Unity at my house last year.  After the meeting, I had a similar experience to what you describe.  All of the transmen went outside on my back deck.  All the female identified persons (not all transwoman identified) stayed inside.  Three of the women sat on one side of the room.  The ciswoman attendee and I ended up chatting on the other side of the room.  One of the three suddenly commented aloud to all of us about how we were divided up between masculine and feminine identified persons.  Another of the three then said "yeah, and the guys are missing out!  We're having a great conversation about video games!"  My response was, "well we're over here talking about feelings and relationships."  Not sure if I should share the observation that was made by one of the three transwomen about that . . . .

Yes, totally cultural.  But culture really shapes and impacts a lot.

Just as a note - not related to any specific posts but just in general from ideas expressed on the forum over the years:
the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

Allow me to be perfectly transparent with yet another distinctly different angle, I am so heavily male socialized that in spite of my inner proclivities and desire for the feminine side that there is no way I will ever be perceived as a full blown female other than in my birthday suit and even that would sometimes be a stretch, so I opted for Androgyny which fairly well suits my needs in every respect. My other attempts at womanhood are like pissing in a gale force headwind. That being confessed I still catch a lot of indignant crap from trans women who feel superior and view my presentation as some kind of threat to their own validity in social settings, while the cis women I associate with view me as a lovable anomaly and friend.  ???

Quote from: Shantel on January 11, 2014, 02:26:15 PM
Allow me to be perfectly transparent with yet another distinctly different angle, I am so heavily male socialized that in spite of my inner proclivities and desire for the feminine side that there is no way I will ever be perceived as a full blown female other than in my birthday suit and even that would sometimes be a stretch, so I opted for Androgyny which fairly well suits my needs in every respect. My other attempts at womanhood are like pissing in a gale force headwind. That being confessed I still catch a lot of indignant crap from trans women who feel superior and view my presentation as some kind of threat to their own validity in social settings, while the cis women I associate with view me as a lovable anomaly and friend.  ???

As do I Ms. Shantel... as do I.

Okay there's a lot going on here, so please bear with me.  This may end up being a long post. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Hi Phoenix,

Hi FA!

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
There seems to be a tendency for some to say things like 'I never experienced male privilege', 'I was never socialized as a male' etc. But I think this is too simplistic a view. Sure, some definitely had varying degrees of socialization and privilege. For instance, I didn't have any female friends growing up and was ostracized by females. So there are a lot of things about female culture and socialization I just didn't get. I never fit in with girls, more with boys, etc, etc. But gender is so pervasive. You can never escape socialization completely even if you never hung around your birth gender.

Okay, two things here.  First of all, I'd like to quote something I said about myself in my first post introducing myself on this site:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 11, 2013, 02:57:06 PM
I am a trans* spectrum individual.  I've kind of given up trying to identify more specifically than that because I find that the more specific terms tend to not quite work for various reasons.  People around here (Maryland/DC area) typically classify me as either a transwoman, a detransitioner, or a cisgender ally.  My rule is to be amused and let those who are worried about it figure it out.

In all candor, I do not trust this web forum enough nor feel interested enough in the discussion to start getting into much of my far distant personal history or the details of my identity.  That's why I tend to say no more than that I have a history of having taken both T and E as well as assorted other hormonal oddities.  Suffice to say that there are reasons I describe myself as trans* spectrum not otherwise specified and not simply as a transwoman.  Some of my issues are the same as transwomen.  Some are polar opposites.  But I wish people would quit writing a story for me about being born a boy, growing up male, etc., etc. It works better if we just take each other at face value and try to filter out the assumptions. :). And my history and identity are a tangled mess that I once thought I understood thoroughly.  Now I'm not at all sure that even I understand it. :)

Second is the discussion of male privilege.  It's an oft raised concept that is related to, but not the same as, male socialization.  But I am critical of it, especially in this context.  The idea that one group (makes) is privileged means that, by implication, another group (perhaps all other groups?) must be disadvantaged.  This way of thinking, tends to reduce a complex topic to a slogan and lead to oppositional, us vs. them, thinking.  I think that any truthful and honest discussion of men's and women's roles in society must acknowledge complexity that arises from the fact that there is a complex web of privileges and detriments that are related to both gender and numerous other factors in society.  Not everything described as "male privilege" is experienced by all men.  There are also drawbacks to being a man.  And there are also female privileges associated with being a woman.  The concept of "male privileges" tries to boil al, of that down to two words and doesn't really work.  In some settings it is true that men are privileged and all others are not.  In some settings, women are privileged.  In other settings some men and some women are privileged while others are not.  And so on.  So I think this idea of "male privilege" is, like any other two word phrase, not very helpful to having a real discussion about the complexities of how lives are actually lived.  The devil is always in the details and two word phrases tend to paint very broad brushes that paint over all the details. 

I also have to say that I am trying to start a discussion that is open and honest about lives.  I think it's fair to say that many of us, by virtue of whatever form of trans* identity we may have, have experienced some oppression.  One thing is for certain:  over the years I have been doing social justice work (not just trans* work) I have learned that there are many kinds of oppression.  And comparing them or arguing about who is more oppressed is rarely helpful.

And in this case, I'm talking about male socialization, of which privileges are only one part, and I already acknowledged that I gots me some o' that. :)

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
It doesn't matter how you saw the world, a large part of socialization is simply the world's reaction to you as a perceived male or female. No matter how masculine or feminine you are. A masculine girl is never treated the same as a boy. And a feminine boy is never treated the same as a girl. A boyish girl may have been treated differently to most girls and vice versa for a feminine boy. But they are still perceived by the world as a girl and boy respectively. And that is huge. No matter how a so called 'girly boy' is treated, there is still a deep gorge between that and how girls are perceived and treated. It's not the same. Even if girls regarded you as an equal, they did not regard you the same. And vice versa for ftms. There's a big difference.

Yes.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
So while a trans girl may have been extremely girly during childhood and even regarded as one the girls, she shouldn't kid herself that she didn't have a vastly different experience to cis females. Because she did. The very fact she was abused for being girly speaks to the fact she was regarded as male. Being treated horribly for being feminine is not the same as being seen as a girl.

Sure, but when we speak of socialization, are we speaking of what lessons a person actually learned from others or what lessons others tried to teach a person?  Aleon515's description of socialization not really sticking is a good example of this.  The world apparently was trying to teach Aleon515 lessons about how to live in the world as a girl.  But they didn't take.  (And I'm going to assume that Aleon515 is in a better position to make judgments about his own life than I am, so I won't question them). 

So was Aleon515 socialized as a girl (because people were trying to teach those lessons) or not (because he didn't learn them)?

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
And sure, having a girly childhood, she may (or may not be) more equipped for female life than some other trans women. But it certainly doesn't mean she escaped male socialization. Sure there are varying degrees. Some guys have a lot more female socialization than I do for example. But to escape it completely, you'd have to have transitioned at birth pretty much. Kids absorb so much in the first few years of life. And gender is the biggest distinction, so we should never kid ourselves that we escaped our birth socialization.

That's kind of my point in starting this thread.  I think we agree on at least this much. :)

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Even if you're not as male socialized as some, you're still way more male socialized than any cis girl.

Assuming the statement is directed at me personally and not a generic "you," I agree with this statement too.  I spent most of my adult life living (or at least trying to live) as a male person.  Naturally that has had an impact on me today. 

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 11, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
Wow, I relate to this like you wouldn't believe. Even after cis women would declare me "an honorary woman" I was still an outsider. Mainstream male culture in Australia is something I've never felt comfortable with or willing to be part of. That's not to say the women I know and work with don't talk politics or sport, they just generally talk about it differently and not as blinkered.

How one is socialised is very hard to shake off and unlearn. It is literally like moving from one country to another, there are a whole lot of different customs and behaviours that are endemic and natural to the local population but sometimes quite alien and difficult to grasp for the newcomer. In Afghanistan they have a custom that allows families with no sons to pretend their eldest daughter is a son (it's a prestige thing). She is given a male name, dressed as a male and goes to school as a male...at least until she hits puberty and they start looking to marry her off. So a cis female is socialised as male, the article I read never mentioned how these girls were able to handled the quantum shift between gender roles in one of the most misogynist and gender divisive cultures on earth.

I used to explain myself to people by pointing out that men socialize by going out and doing things.  Their slogan might be "we strove together therefore we are bonded."  Women go do things too, but the thing is not the point.  The doing something is just a way to get everyone together and the real connection is formed by sharing.  Women's slogan might be "we shared and therefore we are bonded."  Subject to numerous caveats and exceptions, and with full knowledge that we are painting with very broad brushes that obscure the details I just wrote about, that does seem to be true. 

From some of your other posts, I suspect we may have a lot in common.  If nothing else, we are roughly contemporaries.  I too first came into the trans* community in the 1990s, then went away, and the came back later.  Although back in the 1990s I lived in Alaska, where there was very little trans* community, so most of my contact with other trans* people was via Internet.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
And maybe the biggest lesson of my experience is not that trans* people are different from cispeople! but that trans* people are different from one another.

Exactly. And yet there is this judgmental recurring theme of "not trans enough" that pops up now and then.

Quote from: Emo on January 11, 2014, 12:30:24 PM
I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

It seems societies are finally realizing that gender is not black and white and that goes for trans-identified and cis-identified people. I identify as cis but I acknowledge my female side. I've even had my moments when I've wondered if I was trans. A lot of homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, and misandry comes from that--realizing you have aspects of both genders and feeling like you're not supposed to, not allowed to, or what-not.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 11, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
OK, since I've been immunized by OP against the dreaded thumbs down (though perhaps not the equally dreaded "you offended me"), I'll agree with what has been said here.

I don't know whether it's biology, conditioning, or some combination, but I get a distinctly male vibe from an awful lot of the transwomen I meet IRL.

What do I mean by a male vibe?

Women (in general) tend to be more comfortable with emotional vulnerability. They are comfortable with being emotionally vulnerable and are comfortable with me being emotionally vulnerable.

That's hard to find among trans women. They tend to make the types of connections I see men make and not the type that women make. There are exceptions. (Interestingly, some of the transwoman on Susan's that I've met IRL seem not to fit this pattern).

But among cis women, there is often an automatic acceptance as a fellow woman that I don't find among trans women.

I'm not sure I did such a good job of immunizing against thumbs up and thumbs down considering that I got a thumbs up for the post in which I asked for no thumbs up or thumbs down.  I'm beginning to like the site more and more overall, but I'm beginning to really dislike the thumbs up and thumbs down.  Sigh . . .

This is another case where I'm not sure I can safely say all of what I'm thinking, but I will say that I agree with your observations about the "vibe."  I've asked people what it is about me that comes off as so different from most trans* people.  They tell me there is "an air about me" that is very different.  I have no idea what that means.  You've actually met me (albeit only once) so if you can shed any light on what that means, please be my guest.  Or maybe I'll come up to Howard County again for the next meeting so we can continue the conversation in person. 

When I am out socializing with transwomen, I often spend a lot of time going WTF???

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
Just as a note - not related to any specific posts but just in general from ideas expressed on the forum over the years:
the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

I did get the impression there might be some offense taken to my post, but I did not want to say anything lest I be seen as provocative.  I do want to apologize if anything I said was taken as offensive.  It certainly was not my intention.  But by the same token, I would ask that you accept that one thing I know a whole lot more about than anyone else is my life  and what I make of it.

With that said, I offer:

([{ }]) <-- an e-hug

And hope we can move on. 

Hi Phoenix,

Well much of what you said echoes what I said as you stated. This is one thing I see stated a lot on this forum:

QuoteNot everything described as "male privilege" is experienced by all men.  There are also drawbacks to being a man.

While I agree to the latter statement (there are definitely drawbacks to being a man as I have experienced since my transition), I disagree with the former. This idea has been stated a million times since I've been here and I disagree with it.  All those perceived as male experience male privilege. This does not mean you will never be abused, beaten up, ridiculed for being girly, etc. Privilege does not mean you have a good life. It simply means you're afforded privileges others aren't. The very fact that a male appearing person is abused for being girly is testament to his male status. A man who is regularly abused for being feminine does not have the same status as a female. Walking down the street, he may be raped, but he doesn't have the same risk of it as a female. And he most likely didn't grow up hearing lectures as to where to walk, etc.

There really is no one who was declared male at birth who can say they never experienced male privilege (no matter how shabbily treated). Just as I can never say I didn't experience white privilege (no matter how shabbily treated).

I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

I think there are certainly differences, but not necessarily in behaviour or interests.   Because transwomen go through a "male" upbringing, there are certainly some general distinctions and different experiences.  That will likely make an impact on all of us in different ways.   However, in my own personal experience, I've never really fit into the male camp all too well and always felt like an outsider.  So, I don't know if I can share the normal male experience.  But at the same time, I acknowledge that doesn't mean that I'm the same as a cis female.  In most female groups, I'm accepted as an alternative "guy" or someone who is gay.  I'm never fully embraced even if I'm tolerated or somewhat accepted, so I see what you mean.  At the moment, I'm still in boy mode, so I don't know if that will change, but it would be nice to not alwas be an outsider.  In any event, I know I'll never be cis and that I have my differences.  It's a tough thing for me to accept, but it's the reality. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
While I agree to the latter statement (there are definitely drawbacks to being a man as I have experienced since my transition), I disagree with the former. This idea has been stated a million times since I've been here and I disagree with it.  All those perceived as male experience male privilege. This does not mean you will never be abused, beaten up, ridiculed for being girly, etc. Privilege does not mean you have a good life. It simply means you're afforded privileges others aren't. The very fact that a male appearing person is abused for being girly is testament to his male status. A man who is regularly abused for being feminine does not have the same status as a female. Walking down the street, he may be raped, but he doesn't have the same risk of it as a female. And he most likely didn't grow up hearing lectures as to where to walk, etc.

Oh gosh, my favorite of those lectures was the one my mother gave me about parking lots.  I think she made me a whole lot more worried about such things than most other women because of some things that happened to her.  But that's a digression for another time. 

As far as male privilege goes, I'm not really interested in arguing the issue.  It's a point I suspect we will have to disagree on. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
There really is no one who was declared male at birth who can say they never experienced male privilege (no matter how shabbily treated). Just as I can never say I didn't experience white privilege (no matter how shabbily treated).

White privilege is one I agree with you on. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

But I'm not sure I understand this statement.  Are you addressing a generic "you?"  Stating that people should not make excuses or deny their history?  In that case I agree.  It's always best to deal in unvarnished reality.

Or are you addressing the statement to me personally?  In that case, I would say that I have been pretty candid up to and including the fact that I have acknowledged that there are some things I do not wish to share or discuss, which is my privilege.  I do take exception to the idea of someone applying their own values and preconceptions and accusing me of doing either of these things.  And I hope that I have not, and will not, do the same to others. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:04:43 PM

I did get the impression there might be some offense taken to my post, but I did not want to say anything lest I be seen as provocative.  I do want to apologize if anything I said was taken as offensive.  It certainly was not my intention.  But by the same token, I would ask that you accept that one thing I know a whole lot more about than anyone else is my life  and what I make of it.

With that said, I offer:

([{ }]) <-- an e-hug

And hope we can move on.

No offense taken hon. It's more what I said - that I see a lot of 'I never experienced male socialization/privilege!' stuff on the forum. And honestly, as someone born female, it bothers me. I'm by no means what you may call a feminist but, I was born female. And someone who was raised male even just to like 10 or something does have a vastly different experience. Children absorb so much before 5. And as someone born female, I can clearly see why cis women would object to people raised male denying this or excusing it by saying 'they never really experienced male privilege' because they were 'girly' or abused or whatever.

It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Well, I asked for no thumbs up thumbs down, so I guess I can't thumbs up this one without breaking my own request, but I can at least say

AMEN!!!

And then hopefully I can get a break to go get some groceries and pick up my mother to get her credit card that she left at a restaurant. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:52:01 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Well, I asked for no thumbs up thumbs down, so I guess I can't thumbs up this one without breaking my own request, but I can at least say

AMEN!!!

And then hopefully I can get a break to go get some groceries and pick up my mother to get her credit card that she left at a restaurant. :)

Okay good. Then at least someone understood my rant - which wasn't based on your post by the way but on many I've seen throughout this forum. Seems like everyone wants to deny any societal effect. If we could just all accept we've been society's pawns before waking up, we'd be a lot better off.

Well, I think there is a different sort of socialization between typical men and those who are seen girly.  Those who are seen as girly may not have recieved the same sort of socialization that women recieve, but it is different than what most men go through in many ways.   I really think most gay men and transwomen who realized their identity from an early age experience things different than most people in cis or straight communities.    For example, I've been able to experience certain aspects of "male" privilege and have gone through typical male events in my life, but my experience seems so different from what most guys went through and it's hard to explain.  So I feel my socialization is different from most ciswomen, but also different than most cis or straight men.  When you are an alternative child, people treat you differently which has a huge impact on you.   That's a whole other experience in itself.

If I am being honest, I think that it would do a lot of people, cis and trans, to let go of the socialization issue.

Yes, I am not cis. But my socialization has nothing to do with that, and my body has everything to do with it. Biologically I am, and always will be, transsexual. I will never be male, in terms of my sex. My acceptance of my "difference" ends there.

I don't believe socialization forms our interests, behaviours, etc. It simply encourages some and discourages others. I love to use the example of myself and my brother, because we grew up so close in age, and emotionally, we have a closer bond than most siblings. When my brother was bullied, his socialization was to punch the kid in the face. When I was bullied, my socialization was to be a bit more delicate about the entire thing; avoid the bullies, make notes, tell teachers, etc.

My brother did snap once and shoved a kid in a locker. But he's never used physical intimidation since. He could have. It would be encouraged and supported. But what ultimately empowered my brother to stand up for himself was watching Oprah, and learning to believe in himself and what was important to him. The way he asserts himself is very much through words, and if you didn't know it was coming from his mouth, you'd assume it was a woman saying it. If he were to transition to a woman, I honestly believe that socially, he'd blend in seamlessly (physically...it could go either way lol). He can hold his own with cis women way better, and it took him forever to form any kind of conversational bond with a man. He's chosen his whole life not to fit in and to be who he is, regardless of socialization pressuring him to do whatever. He's also sick of people telling him to "just become a woman already." He's not a different kind of male because he chose to embrace his "feminine" ways early enough in life for them to come naturally. He's a cisgender man (unless he has a surprise for me! :P In which case I will support her as she always supported me)

Take me. I was encouraged to do the opposite of my brother; improve my self-esteem, not fight, etc etc. I chose to do that. Consciously. I wanted to fit in. Socialization only encouraged me to do it. Just as socialization encouraged me not to watch certain movies, certain comedians, and talk about certain things. I remember one time where I was read as cis and the guy was like "just like that Dane Cook skit, you remember that, man?" I didn't know what to say. I never let myself watch Dane Cook because that's what the men I knew did, and I didn't want to tread too much into "male territory" because I didn't want anyone to know the truth about me. But you know what I thought? Those rules never applied to me in the first place, but because I wanted to fit in, I chose to avoid it. If I want to, I can find all Dane Cook's skits, watch them, and then form an opinion. If I like them, I can talk to the guys about them with just as much fervor. If I don't like them, I won't do that, but I doubt it will be because of how I was raised. It will be because of my personal tastes and preferences.

Socialization, I believe, at the end of the day, is self-imposed. Yes, we're pressured to do and be X Y and Z because of the sex we were born as. Some of us were comfortable enough in that role to continue with it. At one point in my life, I took on "feminine" behaviours and things that both liked and hated. I threw away the ones I hated, and kept the ones I like. I may have been discouraged from liking "male" things, and I chose to allow myself to be discouraged - and I tell myself now that those things deserve a chance too. Some of the "masculine" things I like have now become a part of my personality. If I don't like them, they get discarded.

I guess what I am saying is none of us should limit ourselves based on our socialization and our comfort zone. It just encourages cis people to limit us as well - to say "well that woman wasn't born a woman, so she can't get us and our experiences and our way of being." Or "that man was born a woman, so he must get us because he can talk to us much easier" (and yes, cis women have said that to me - some even assumed, even though I passed to them otherwise, that I was FTM because of certain behaviours. how offensive!). That's not necessarily true, for one - some trans men blend in better with cis women, some don't. Some trans women blend in better with cis women than others. For another, who cares if the style is a bit different? Why attach meaning to it? I think we need to work past it as HUMANS, forget cis and trans - not shutting people out or treating people differently because they communicate in a way we are not used to or have interests we are unfamiliar with. It's self-limiting.

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 04:03:53 PM
Well, I think there is a different sort of socialization between typical men and those who are seen girly.  Those who are seen as girly may not have recieved the same sort of socialization that women recieve, but it is different than what most men go through in many ways.   I really think most gay men and transwomen who realized their identity from an early age experience things different than most people in cis or straight communities.    For example, I've been able to experience certain aspects of "male" privilege and have gone through typical male events in my life, but my experience seems so different from what most guys went through and it's hard to explain.  So I feel my socialization is different from most ciswomen, but also different than most cis or straight men.  When you are an alternative child, people treat you differently which has a huge impact on you.   That's a whole other experience in itself.

Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was always girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

Quote from: ThePhoenix
From you signature:

Please do not thumbs up or thumbs down my posts. I've learned that I am only valuable as a contributor when I'm honest. And this forum is only valuable to me when I can talk honestly about my own issues. Worrying about whether people will like what I say and +1 it or dislike it and -1 it distracts me from just being honest and damages my value to the forum and the forum's value to me. Thanks!!

I appreciate your honesty!  For that I'd like to give you +1

But the reputation system here is not really the same as the like/dislike you find in the social media, such as YouTube or FaceBook.

I have given hundreds of +1, and only ever two smites.  The smites indicated my utter contempt for what the posters were doing.  They were well-deserved.  But rare.

@caleb.

Very well said and I agree completely. The more of your posts I read the more I love the way your mind works!

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:56:57 PM
Okay good. Then at least someone understood my rant - which wasn't based on your post by the way but on many I've seen throughout this forum. Seems like everyone wants to deny any societal effect. If we could just all accept we've been society's pawns before waking up, we'd be a lot better off.

(While I wait on my mother to get ready).

I can be a little slow on the uptake and it may take me a few tries, but I usually get things eventually.  It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.  My point in starting this thread was basically to say that yes, trans* people are different.  So let's talk about it instead of accusing people who mention it of denying the womanhood of others.  I think maybe we're on similar pages with that. :)

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was never girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.   

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was always girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

Thanks.  One thing I've learned from community organization and advocacy is the value of candor.  I have a fair amount of local street cred with government officials, ordinary trans* people, and others.  That's important because without it, I'm worthless.  I am supposed to do a trans* training for the local human rights commission in the spring, for example, and I'm worthless if they are just rolling their eyes.  But I have gained that by the fact that people know when I talk to them, I will be frank while trying not to be mean, and I will tell the pm the truth as best I can see it.  I may be wrong and people may not like what I have to say.  I may not even always make sense.  But they know at least I'm always honest.  I always tell what I really think.

I realized as I was writing the original post that I was really getting fearful about the number of -1s that I was going to attract if I pressed the "post" button.  So I figured I'd better do something to take myself out of it.  It's not meant as a criticism that applies to anyone else.  But for me, the +1s I have been getting are perhaps a little too good for my ego and the -1 I got is a little too scary.  I guess I'm kind of a people pleaser.  But, for myself, I'm probably best off if I can somehow opt out while still participating in the many interesting discussions on this website. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
Thanks.  One thing I've learned from community organization and advocacy is the value of candor.  I have a fair amount of local street cred with government officials, ordinary trans* people, and others.  That's important because without it, I'm worthless.  I am supposed to do a trans* training for the local human rights commission in the spring, for example, and I'm worthless if they are just rolling their eyes.  But I have gained that by the fact that people know when I talk to them, I will be frank while trying not to be mean, and I will tell the pm the truth as best I can see it.  I may be wrong and people may not like what I have to say.  I may not even always make sense.  But they know at least I'm always honest.  I always tell what I really think.

I realized as I was writing the original post that I was really getting fearful about the number of -1s that I was going to attract if I pressed the "post" button.  So I figured I'd better do something to take myself out of it.  It's not meant as a criticism that applies to anyone else.  But for me, the +1s I have been getting are perhaps a little too good for my ego and the -1 I got is a little too scary.  I guess I'm kind of a people pleaser.  But, for myself, I'm probably best off if I can somehow opt out while still participating in the many interesting discussions on this website. :)

You really have nothing to be afraid about.  Everyone that's trans realizes there are differences in socialization of someone who is cis and that's not meant to be an insult.  As a trans person that grew up with two sisters, I definitely can see that the way one is raised and treated because of their gender can have profound impacts.  It was one of the harder aspects about my childhood to see my sisters go through things that I'd never get to experience and it was one of the things that introduced me to gender dysphoria.  At the end of the day, these things can create general differences in personality and character.  If someone starts to bicker at you for it, they really aren't being fair to you.  There is nothing transphobic about it.   

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 04:35:53 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was never girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.

It's more the denial of male privilege. As if a poor white guy who is abused doesn't experience white privilege. Male privilege does not mean you are seen as an alpha male. It means you are seen as male period. Not female. Being abused does not change this. Think about it. It's the same as being white. If you're a poor white guy, you may be looked down on, but you're not seen the same as a black guy whatever you do (in the US at least).
I didn't ask to be white and I feel awful that others are profiled and treated badly because they don't look like me. But that's the way things are.

The denial that a trans woman (no matter how feminine in childhood) experienced male privilege is offensive to a lot of people born female.

I think we as the transgender community should figure out what is gender specific and what is not.
I know it varies from culture to culture but all that would mean its all in our heads, minus the feeling that our brains dont match our bodies.
I feel like i should have breasts and a vagina but long hair and clothing style dont seem all that gender specific to me. I mean in japan, anyone can wear a kimono.
In our culture, anyone can wear a sweatshirt and jeans.

There is a lot of mixing here of gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations.

Roles and expectations have more to do with culture and society.  Identity is innate, as far as I can tell.

When I think about these things, I often have my own primate or "caveman" test, trying to remove the influences of society and culture, and see things in their natural state.  Archeology and anthropology tells us that gender roles were less important the farther back we go in (pre)history.  Primitive humans were mostly focused on survival.

To the extent that nature provided the mothering role for females with young children, some gender roles likely developed from that.  But, it seems that our primitive ancestors wore the same clothes (when they wore clothing), all gathered, hunted, cooked, and cared for the family, tribe, or clan, and organized themselves in a form of communalism.

I'm going to give my own take on this thing. If it seems a bit off-topic or "thread-drifty" then that's the way it goes.

Even though I grew up in a male body, I rejected any attempts at being forced into a male role. I hated sports, I crossdressed on and off for a long time (but only in private), I was never accepted as a male because people always knew that something about me was "off". The girls all knew this as well. So, I never fit in with the guys and I never fit in with the girls. The couple of friends that I had knew that I wasn't masculine and they knew that, again, something about me was "off' gender-wise. This is the way it was for my entire childhood and into my teen years. I don't think you could say that I enjoyed any sort of "male privilege" (unless being thought of as a "->-bleeped-<-" counts somehow, but I don't see how it would.)

I would say that trans girls have an upbringing that is uniquely theirs.  It is not the same as a cis male's upbringing, nor is it the same as a cis female's upbringing, it is a trans upbringing.  It is the same upbringing any female would experience if she was assigned male at birth.  It is very hard in its own way, but it does afford you the privileges of being male.  Even if you don't cash in completely on your male privilege (I didn't) still you are not taught from birth (practically) that your beauty is more important than your substance.  You are not made to feel your future is limited unless you break through glass ceilings.  I listen to how my siblings talk to their children.  They always remark how sweet and pretty their daughters are, and their sons are smart little geniuses.  It is starkly different, already, these children are all 2 years old or younger.  But as a trans child you do feel wrong and horrible about being in your assigned role.  You feel ostracized from humanity. You feel broken.  You feel like a disappointment.  All of these things together make our past unique, and different, than cis women's.

It is very similar, like FA says, to how being raised white is not the same as being raised black.  You wouldn't say that woman that was raised white is less a woman because of how she was raised.

Being trans doesn't not illegitimize your sex.  I think feelings of inadequacy create this need in many trans women to say their upbringing was more in line with their brain sex, that they weren't affected by male privilege, and that feeling of being deficient is the real problem.  We should stop feeling inadequate.  We don't need to squeeze our narratives a certain way to make ourselves real women.  Be proud of the kind of woman you are.  We have one of the most difficult paths to womanhood, and making it there is a huge victory that we should all feel amazing about.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 05:09:53 PM
It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.


It's more the denial of male privilege. As if a poor white guy who is abused doesn't experience white privilege. Male privilege does not mean you are seen as an alpha male. It means you are seen as male period. Not female. Being abused does not change this. Think about it. It's the same as being white. If you're a poor white guy, you may be looked down on, but you're not seen the same as a black guy whatever you do (in the US at least).
I didn't ask to be white and I feel awful that others are profiled and treated badly because they don't look like me. But that's the way things are.

The denial that a trans woman (no matter how feminine in childhood) experienced male privilege is offensive to a lot of people born female.

I see what you mean.  If you mean the societal privileges that being male provides someone, then you have a point.  I guess I would just say like the poor white guy the gay guy isn't as privileged, but it's not to say that there is no privilege or benefits from being a member of an in group.  Even though I was often bullied for being fem, I did have some of the social benefits that come from living as white male.  That I would never deny and it's always pissed me off when I've been favored for such a stupid arbitraty reason.  Of course, it's much more unfair for those who aren't given that privilege for those arbitrary reasons.  Nonetheless, privilege withstanding, being a gay or fem guy does present itself with other social problems and dilemmas that certainly are not fun to deal with.  It's not to take away from the male the benefits of male privledge at all, but it creates a different form of socialization that most aren't subjected too.  In any case, I suspect we are probably on the same page, but we are expressing it differently. 

I do think that while we should not minimize the role male privilege played in our lives, we also shouldn't minimize how difficult it was to be a trans girl growing up in the wrong role either.  They both are very difficult things, but also very different things.

Quote from: Jamie D on January 11, 2014, 05:22:33 PM
There is a lot of mixing here of gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations.

Roles and expectations have more to do with culture and society.  Identity is innate, as far as I can tell.

When I think about these things, I often have my own primate or "caveman" test, trying to remove the influences of society and culture, and see things in their natural state.  Archeology and anthropology tells us that gender roles were less important the farther back we go in (pre)history.  Primitive humans were mostly focused on survival.

To the extent that nature provided the mothering role for females with young children, some gender roles likely developed from that.  But, it seems that our primitive ancestors wore the same clothes (when they wore clothing), all gathered, hunted, cooked, and cared for the family, tribe, or clan, and organized themselves in a form of communalism.

Exactly.
We need to get down to the bare bones of what gender is. Is there a difference between gender and sex? If so what is that difference?
I feel like the most evidence for transgender society is the brain. Its more than wondering why our bodies wont develop the way we expect. To me, its a whole other level. Finding myself in the world we live in. I feel i fit in here more than i did with any other group.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 05:31:37 PM
I would say that trans girls have an upbringing that is uniquely theirs.  It is not the same as a cis males upbringing, nor is it the same as a cis female's upbringing, it is a trans upbringing.  It is the same upbringing any female would experience if she was assigned male at birth.  It is very hard in its own way, but it affords you the privileges of being male if you are mtf.  Even if you don't cash in completely on your male privilege (I didn't) still you are not taught from birth (practically) that your beauty is more important than your substance.  You are not made to feel your future is limited unless you break through glass ceilings.  I listen to how my siblings talk to their children.  They always remark how sweet and pretty their daughters are, and their sons are smart little geniuses.  It is starkly different, already, these children are all 2 years old or younger.  But as a trans child you do feel wrong and horrible about being in your assigned role.  You feel ostracized from humanity. You feel broken.  You feel like a disappointment.  All of these things together make our past unique, and different, than cis women's.

It is very similar, like FA says, to how being raised white is not the same as being raised black.  You wouldn't say that woman that was raised white is less a woman because of how she was raised.

Being trans doesn't not illegitimize your sex.  I think feelings of inadequacy create this need trans people have to say their upbringing was more in line with their brain sex, that they weren't affected by male privilege, and that feeling of being deficient is the real problem.  We should stop feeling inadequate.  We don't need to squeeze our narratives a certain way to make ourselves real women.  Be proud of the kind of woman you are.  We have one of the most difficult paths to womanhood, and making it there is a huge victory that we should all feel amazing about.

Good points Jen.

Even as a masculine girl, I very much got the message that who I was didn't matter. My looks did. While there may be girls lucky enough to not be raised this way, most are. Boys are given way more empowering messages (even if they're treated horribly; I was). Studies have also shown teachers encourage boys more. Basically as a boy you're encouraged to live and be whatever you want.  As a girl, lip service may be paid to this, but you learn early on that if you're pretty you need to use that and if you're not, you better find something to be good at because you really don't count in society. I was one of the 'pretty ones'. There's a reason most female high school valedictorians are fat or otherwise not attractive. It's just such a huge difference from what any boys (feminine or not) learn.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 05:43:40 PM
I do think that while we should not minimize the role male privilege played in our lives, we also shouldn't minimize how difficult it was to be a trans girl growing up in the wrong role either.  They both are very difficult things, but also very different things.

Well said.

I want to give an example of how being raised male continues to affect how you deal with the world even after transition, when supposedly you have left male privilege behind.

"Why in the heck are you single?"  This is a question I get constantly.  The subtext being, something must be wrong with me because I am pretty and single (not everybody thinks I am pretty obv, but when they do, out comes that question.) A pretty girl apparently has all the tools she needs to get the best out of life she could dream of, i.e. be with a man.

I find that question so annoying, I can't even tell you, because the thing is, I never got the memo growing up - that attracting a good man was my way to a good life.  I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 06:23:36 PM
I want to give an example of how being raised male continues to affect how you deal with the world even after transition, when supposedly you have left male privilege behind.

"Why in the heck are you single?"  This is a question I get constantly.  The subtext being, something must be wrong with me because I am pretty and single (not everybody thinks I am pretty obv, but when they do, out comes that question.) A pretty girl apparently has all the tools she needs to get the best out of life she could dream of, i.e. be with a man.

I find that question so annoying, I can't even tell you, because the thing is, I never got the memo growing up - that attracting a good man was my way to a good life.  I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

Very interesting example.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 06:23:36 PM

I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

This is what binds me and keeps me in limbo!

To be fair though, most women hate the single question too. Sure, some women internalize that you need to have a man or be pretty to be worthwhile, but many scoff at the notion just as someone raised male would. The question is just as alien and weird.

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
To be fair though, most women hate the single question too.

I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it :).  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread :)

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 05:00:18 PM
You really have nothing to be afraid about.  Everyone that's trans realizes there are differences in socialization of someone who is cis and that's not meant to be an insult.  As a trans person that grew up with two sisters, I definitely can see that the way one is raised and treated because of their gender can have profound impacts.  It was one of the harder aspects about my childhood to see my sisters go through things that I'd never get to experience and it was one of the things that introduced me to gender dysphoria.  At the end of the day, these things can create general differences in personality and character.  If someone starts to bicker at you for it, they really aren't being fair to you.  There is nothing transphobic about it.

Alas, I wish that were true.  But another difference between the trans* community and the Cisco,Munich is a certain oversensitivity and even paranoia.  It's understandable.  When you are a downtrodden minority, you end up with wounds.  And those wounds make you sensitive to getting hurt in those spots again.  And you are always vigilant against it.  And maybe even angry about it.  That kind of experience in life does get to a person after a while.  And at a minimum, it leaks, or sometimes even explodes out.

But unfortunately that can make the trans* community one of the more difficult groups to work with too.  People on this board have been saying things like I said only to have others get upset at them for saying them.  That's what prompted me to wish we could actually talk about it.  And I've had others (not on this board yet) just respond to things I said by just totally flipping out and accusing me of off the wall stuff that has no connection to what I actually said.  And of course I try to keep a level head, but I  do t always succeed.  I have my own wounds and my own buttons that can be pushed to make me lose my cool and be over sensitive or even a bit bonkers.  I'm the same as anyone else in that regard.

So I have learned to be careful about what I say to trans* people I don't know well.  I've learned how to take risks too, but it am mindful of the fact that I am taking the risk and it may not be safe to say certain things.  And posting this topic was one of those risks.  And, like I said earlier in the thread, there are things that I do not feel safe enough to say.  Maybe as I become less new to this forum, I will grow more comfortable to say those things.  But some may just be things that I will not be able to put into writing or say aloud. 

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
To be fair though, most women hate the single question too.

I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it :).  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread :)

That makes sense. I guess it's the whole 'I was feminine as a child and abused for it, therefore I never experienced male privilege' kind of thing that grates. Because there is a big difference growing up a minority vs not. Especially for white males. No matter how much they didn't fit in or whatever, it is a lot different to those who grew up female. Being identified female at birth puts you in a minority across the world. That does have a huge effect on upbringing. It's not only your parents, but every adult you come in contact with. No matter how boyish you are, you can't escape it. You're born female, you're born as a second class citizen. No matter where you are in the world. And you learn this from a very young age. It's so pervasive, so subtle, you may not even realize it. But everything in your world supports it.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it :).  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread :)

Oh, I'm sorry! Of course I didn't mean that at all. I meant the majority of women in general, including cis women. Just trying to say I don't believe it to be a result of being raised as male.

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 07:32:37 PM
Oh, I'm sorry! Of course I didn't mean that at all. I meant the majority of women in general, including cis women. Just trying to say I don't believe it to be a result of being raised as male.

I know what you meant, I was just being a pain :).

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 07:29:38 PM
That makes sense. I guess it's the whole 'I was feminine as a child and abused for it, therefore I never experienced male privilege' kind of thing that grates. Because there is a big difference growing up a minority vs not. Especially for white males. No matter how much they didn't fit in or whatever, it is a lot different to those who grew up female. Being identified female at birth puts you in a minority across the world. That does have a huge effect on upbringing. It's not only your parents, but every adult you come in contact with. No matter how boyish you are, you can't escape it. You're born female, you're born as a second class citizen. No matter where you are in the world. And you learn this from a very young age. It's so pervasive, so subtle, you may not even realize it. But everything in your world supports it.

I agree completely.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:36:05 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

But I'm not sure I understand this statement.  Are you addressing a generic "you?"  Stating that people should not make excuses or deny their history?  In that case I agree.  It's always best to deal in unvarnished reality.

Or are you addressing the statement to me personally?  In that case, I would say that I have been pretty candid up to and including the fact that I have acknowledged that there are some things I do not wish to share or discuss, which is my privilege.  I do take exception to the idea of someone applying their own values and preconceptions and accusing me of doing either of these things.  And I hope that I have not, and will not, do the same to others.

Sorry, just saw this post. No, it was a generic you. None of my posts were meant to say anything personal about you or your personal experience. And I'm sorry for going off on a tangent on what was a good thread. Sometimes I end up replying to posts like I'm replying to a million different posts on the subject through the years. I've caught myself doing it before. When you've been here for a long time, you hear the same recurring arguments. And sometimes you just start replying to old arguments.  :embarrassed:

I actually agree with most of what has been posted. I had the same kind of thing, where I was an outcast and didn't get as much socialization as I should have. And I guess the same could be said for me that it didn't really 'take' like it should have. But the longer I live as male, the more I notice lingering ill effects of female socialization.

I know you said you didn't want to talk about male privilege, but I don't see how we can have a discussion on gendered socialization without it. Because most of female socialization is based on adopting your role as part of the lesser half of humanity. I guess that's why it's off putting to me when people say they didn't have male privilege, socialization, etc. I know I'm probably sounding kind of feministy  :icon_blah: right now, but I only ever studied this kind of thing after transitioning and realizing I still needed to drop some lingering socialization effects. I can look back and see how much growing up female damaged me in ways I'm not sure how to fix. And I was never even abused or raped or experienced any overt sexism at all. It's far more subtle than that.

That doesn't mean male socialization is any good either. And I am glad I missed some things like being forced to suppress emotion and such.

When most people discuss socialization and upbringing and stuff on here, they tend to focus on mannerisms, clothing, behaviors, etc. But I've never seen the biggest difference in male and female socialization discussed - the point that girls are born and raised to belong to a lower caste. The sex caste. Even if a girl was given every advantage and encouraged by her parents to succeed and all that, she still grows up in a world that reinforces the fact that she's lesser. It's incredibly subtle and pervasive. And I didn't even notice it until well after transition and living as male. It's so normal, it's hard to notice.

And I'm not trying to be all 'poor me' or play oppression olympics or anything like that (because I hate when people do that). Just that this has been bothering me (especially since I've seen some 'I never experienced male privilege/socialization, I got beaten up...' recently though not in this thread). So unfortunately, Phoenix you just happened to make a thread on a similar subject when I was boiling over... :laugh:
Sorry about that.

But if I made a thread on the subject, it'd probably be drowned out by comments from some trans women 'Wait, that's not my case. I was girly and beaten up!' and trans men 'Well, not in my case, I was masculine....'
What I'm talking about isn't about individual cases. And it is something nobody can escape. A person of color grows up differently in a racist world whether he was advantaged and never experienced overt racism or not. Now I agree that a young trans child's perception of this may be different from a cis person's of their birth gender. And I think mine was. But it's still an important distinction - being born into the 'sex caste' vs not. No matter the child's internal gender.

Okay, I'll stop now.  :laugh:

PS. I don't remember if I was one of those that gave you an applaud here. Sorry if I was. I just forgot.  :)

The most insidious things in the world are the most subtle, happening beneath our notice.

Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 10:39:49 AM
The most insidious things in the world are the most subtle, happening beneath our notice.

very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything.  :laugh:

Pft, nothing wrong with being a feminist anyway :).

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it :).  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread :)

I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.

Quote from: Heather on January 12, 2014, 11:29:50 AM

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it :).  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread :)

I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.

That makes sense. I think it's probably more commonly asked to women though. I wonder if there are unattractive people who never get this question because people think they already have the answer!  :laugh:

You may be right, Heather, but idk, it is something in their tone that irks me.   It feels like they think I need to convince them I'm not a psycho, where if that question is asked of a guy, it's more like why would you choose to be single?  Probably with the subtext of accusing him of being gay or something.  Cause like, guys get women if they want to and why wouldn't they want to, but if a girl can't get a guy, she must be broken in some fundamental way.   Like there is something wrong with me as a person, vs. something wrong with a single guy's priorities.

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:44:12 AM
I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.


That makes sense. I think it's probably more commonly asked to women though. I wonder if there are unattractive people who never get this question because people think they already have the answer!  :laugh:

Its funny I was overweight a good part of my twenties and I still would get asked that. But I was asked ten times more after I lost the weight and got into pretty good shape. Actually it would annoy me a bit because people assumed I lost the weight for a woman and not for myself. And I think it also must be pointed out while men don't get the pressure women do to be in a relationship. They do start getting questioned if they are not in a relationship by a certain age. For me that age was 25 when my family started putting pressure on me to be a man and start a family.  :-\

Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 11:53:18 AM
You may be right, Heather, but idk, it is something in their tone that irks me.   It feels like they think I need to convince them I'm not a psycho, where if that question is asked of a guy, it's more like why would you choose to be single?  Probably with the subtext of accusing him of being gay or something.  Cause like, guys get women if they want to and why wouldn't they want to, but if a girl can't get a guy, she must be broken in some fundamental way.   Like there is something wrong with me as a person, vs. something wrong with a single guy's priorities.

Also it could be the reason they are asking when your a male is to find out if your gay or not without directly asking. But with women it's different men ask because they suspect if your an attractive woman and your single they think there're has to be a reason your single not that you choose to be single.

Exactly :)

Hi, FA, please have no worries about me.  No offense was taken.  I actually appreciate you chiming in with a different perspective and I hope to hear more from you.  But I do appreciate you clarifying that you were not pointing at me personally.  :)

I'm actually perfectly up for a chat about male privilege.  I just don't find the term itself to be very helpful.  But the things the term tries to get at are very real.  I have a pair of experiences that I like to share to illustrate how complicated it is, at least in my life. 

They both happen on the road to Death Valley, which is one of my favorite vacation spots.  I like to fly to LAX, stay the night, and then drive to Death Valley.  The road I take leads through Panamint Valley, a gorgeous, but totally isolated valley that is very similar to Death Valley itself.  Very hot desert, hardly any people around, and no cell phone service.  And both of me (the male and female versions) have been there. 

One year, female me went and saw wild flowers growing in the Panamint valley.  I pulled over to take some photos.  At the moment I started to get out of the car, another car was passing in the opposite direction.  Immediately the blinker came on and the (male) driver started to pull off the road right behind me.  I figured that this likely meant that he thought I had broken down and was stopping to help.  So I held up my camera where he could see it and realize I had just stopped to take photos.  The turn signal promptly went off and he kept going on his way.  Now, of course, there's another possibility.  The image of damsel in distress could have looked more like a potential victim.  If he had stopped and gotten out when I held up my camera, I would have gotten back in the car, started it, and left because of worry about my safety.

Another year, male me went and actually did get in trouble in the Panamint Valley.  I had pulled over to take photos of the area on a particularly gorgeous day.  When I tried to leave, my car got stuck in the sand and gravel on the side of the road in about 110 degree heat.  A few other cars did pass by while I was trying to get unstuck.  But no one stopped to help.  Eventually I did get myself unstuck and I continued on my way.  And of course eventually someone probably would have stopped.  But I would not have had to wait long in that heat to be injured by it and it's very questionable whether anyone would have stopped by then.  But when eventually someone did stop, it would be less likely that they would try to harm me. 

It's interesting to me that these two experiences are basically mirror images of one another.  The possibilities are basically binary:  someone either stops or they don't.  But the outcomes are opposite:  someone is more likely to stop in one case, but the risk is greater if they do.  In the other case, someone is less likely to stop, but the risk associated with the stopping itself is lesser. 

I understand privilege and detriment to be about how others treat you better or worse in a different situation.  Experiencing those privileges and detriments is only one part of learning to be in the world.  But it is a substantial part of it.  So which version of me was more privileged here?  I'm not sure.  It seems to me that the greater likelihood of someone stopping for female-me is a female privilege that could have saved my life in other circumstances.  But the possibility of being raped is a female detriment that could have severely damaged or even ended my life.  The lesser likelihood of someone stopping for male me is a male detriment that could severely damaged or even ended my life.  But the lesser likelihood of being raped by someone who did stop was a male privilege.  So each version of me, based on gender, had a different privilege and a different detriment.  But which was more privileged?  I honestly have no idea.  So how does male privilege fit in here?

An essay by Raven Kaldera that I read ages and ages ago also contains interesting thoughts on male privilege.  The essay is here and the bit on male privilege is number 2: 

http://www.ravenkaldera.org/gender-archive/feminist-on-testosterone.html

I too would actually like to talk about this issue.  But I'm still working out how best to talk about it in a way that is more nuanced than "all men are privileged above all women."  One of my Facebook friends posted an essay that talks about these issues mainly in a racial context, but proposes discussing "intersectionalities" instead of "privileges."  Perhaps that is a way to get beyond it.  The essay is here, if you're interested:

http://thefeministbreeder.com/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person/

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything.  :laugh:

No need to apologize.  I would say growing up seen as a "gay male" is a very different thing than growing up as a woman, so I take no offense to it.  In fact, it was an enlightening conversation.

Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 11:13:53 AM
Pft, nothing wrong with being a feminist anyway :).

Yeah, I think most feminists get a bad rap because of the extremists.  Most feminists have a point that needs to be considered.

Quote from: Heather on January 12, 2014, 12:23:50 PM
Also it could be the reason they are asking when your a male is to find out if your gay or not without directly asking. But with women it's different men ask because they suspect if your an attractive woman and your single they think there're has to be a reason your single not that you choose to be single.

Yeah, I always get people using the dating question to get confirmation on my sexuality.  It's a way to skirt around the issue.  With my sister who has been single for a while, they go all crazy and need to know why she doesn't have a boyfriend.  As though something is really wrong.  While with me, they already kind of assume as to why I'm single. 

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything.  :laugh:

Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.  I'm not going to say anything about the gender based tendency in that . . . .

But I just want to say that I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  You're fine. :)  I hope I didn't send an "it's your fault" vibe to you.  If I did, I'm sorry. :(

Boy me got:

You're a really cute guy.  You deserve to be dating someone.

Girl me gets:

You're a really pretty girl.  You deserve to be married.

I don't think the difference between pretty and cute matters much.  But the difference between being told I should be dating someone and being told I should be married seems to indicate a certain difference . . . .

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:38:50 PM
Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.

I am so much the same way :(

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything.  :laugh:

Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.  I'm not going to say anything about the gender based tendency in that . . . .

But I just want to say that I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  You're fine. :)  I hope I didn't send an "it's your fault" vibe to you.  If I did, I'm sorry. :(

Yeah, I'm like that too. Especially since transitioning, which is odd. Guys aren't supposed to care about that sort of thing.

Well, I honestly went on kind of a tangent after having little sleep and didn't even read all the replies. So I felt bad about that and I was worried I may have offended some of you, especially the ladies. I know this whole thing about socialization and privilege is sometimes held against trans women. And I really didn't want to come off like that.

Basically, once AFAB (assigned female at birth) people realize the full extent of what that means and how that has affected them, there can be a lot of bitterness. So sometimes, there's kind of a knee jerk reaction. I seem to have adopted some feminist style views since living as male. When I was actually kind of sexist before - the very idea that female cops existed used to piss me off; I hated that they would call a female in to frisk me. I felt a lot more violated and would rather the guy do it even if he got too frisky - it would probably just have broken the tension. But that was probably due to my history of never having been abused by males and bullied by females.

But anyway - I don't know who this person is spouting feminist style views - certainly can't be me!  :laugh:

Oh my - Phoenix, you have made my day! Yours was a fantastic OP! Subsequent offerings have been wonderful and - perhaps more importantly - the exchanges between us fantastic! This is an amazing thread! I appreciate this so much, I am NOT going to offer you a +1!

But I will try to slip my own two cents onto the table:

Though I have throughout my life outwardly appeared male to the world, my inner sense of body, spirit, and mind leans more toward female. This situation fluctuates over time, but the preceding generally summarizes my experience.

Because of this, I have been perceived as male, treated as male, socialized as male, and privileged as male. Much of this I have not liked. Much of this has never 'fit'. Much of this I have denied, ignored, and/or resisted. Much of this has hurt and confused and angered me deeply.

Given a choice, I would have elected to be perceived as female, treated as female, socialized as female, and privileged as female. But this truth is, I wasn't. I was perceived, treated, socialized, and privileged male. In spite of any inner sense I might have, in spite of any yearnings or preferences I might feel, this fact has deeply and profoundly shaped the person I am. Even if I were able to snap my fingers right now and become 100% bodily female, I feel I would not be the 'equivalent' of a cis female by virtue of this fact.

This situation frequently depresses me and I have given this a great deal of consideration. To cut a long story short, I have come to believe the foundational source of this depression is the issue of legitimacy. Our culture legitimizes only two genders: male and female. One is either a man or a woman, and that's about it. If one does not 'fit' within this schema, if this polar conception of gender does not work for some people, well it remains the only game in town - so such folk are very much out of luck! Put another way, such folk are left socially illegitimate - not really seen or acknowledged, not really granted a 'place' in the prevailing order.

Somewhat surprisingly, in spite of the fact this way of thinking leaves so many of its own people out/unacknowledged, the trans community seems, for the most part, to function under this very same binary umbrella. Hence, in my opinion, the recurring debates about 'real' men and women - debates that, from this perspective, are not really about gender, but instead express much deeper concerns about legitimacy, about having a socially sanctioned place. Such debates, then, are about our very existence! About our ability to say, 'I'm here!' and be recognized/seen in doing so. This, perhaps, explains why these exchanges can become so very heated!

All this said, then, perhaps our greatest - and most fruitful - challenge as trans folk lay not in the 'real' debates, but in finding ways to socially legitimize a broader range of gender experience. So that people like myself can say, 'Well, I'm not a cis man and I'm not a cis woman, but I am a ______' So that the world around me can hear my words, nod its head, and open it's arms wide in welcome.         

     

I believe that a trans* person is, first and foremost, a person.  That we all differ biologically and in our social experiences from cispeople is a reality, but it does not trump the fact that we are all people. 

It is also a reality that I wish my iPad would stop replacing commas with exclamation points . . . .

I saw this topic after reading ThePhoenix's snippet in another thread...

You know, I read it, and I found myself reacting so strongly to everything. It stirred up so many emotions, so many things I wanted to say, so many subtleties that I have seen over and over again that also grate for me personally. I'm posting because I feel compelled to, though I have an incredibly strong distaste for voicing my opinions usually. I don't like to argue, at all. I just really feel like I need to bare my soul on this topic...

I can't really give my life story, but being a victim of CSA, severe neglect and isolation and resulting agoraphobia, childhood obesity and related bullying, an elementary level education and accompanying lack of life skills, lifelong codependency, which all robbed me of a sense of identity, faith in life and myself, and I think of a real sexuality beyond plain martyrdom....

I don't have an agenda. Honestly, I don't. I just don't think male privilege is a catch all term, I don't think male socialization is equal or equally important/influential in every life, I don't like how the terms feel weaponized, and a life is just a very complex experience. I don't think any of that matters. If I could feel the least bit empowered by whatever advantages I had, I would be ecstatic, but I can't. I can't value it at all because I didn't get anything from it. Or if I did, it was not helpful enough that I can detect it. I am a low-functioning person, struggling every day to obtain a very basic level of self-reliance. I just wanted to share this because personally, I experience horrible guilt when I am made to feel privileged (-->ignorant, undesirable, offensive... disgusting is what goes through my head) and I just don't understand why. I honestly feel like a lot of FAAB people use those experiences to have a privileged status on the topic of privilege itself. Like the right to define any personal experience as being disadvantaged relative to an ideal norm that, frankly, they have never experienced the other side of either. And it works, I feel like ->-bleeped-<- and like a horrible person, I feel wrong and shameful for even beginning to object, because I utterly do respect and regard all people as equals, (though I admittedly struggle with a fear of men) even if I also feel like it's just an incredibly loaded topic.  People shouldn't deny and misrepresent their past, but I feel that you also shouldn't parade a concept around in front of them that on a personal level can easily seem objectifying, mildly vilifying and that is provoking a spectrum of reactions which you can comfortably veto just because you have a general belief about their very personal experiences in life, which you have never experienced. I just don't like it. It just makes me uncomfortable. Maybe a lot of MAAB people are everything that FAAB people believe they must be, and are all immediately complicit as privileged people, but being automatically included in this thing that honestly feels like it has nothing to do with me, who has always struggled to simply feel like a human being, and who has always struggled to feel worthy of the most basic affection or approval from anyone at all, just feels dirty, invalidating and really unpleasant. I don't know. I just hate these generalizations that don't make anyone feel better anyway. /rant. I'm really sorry. :( ><

Quote from: sad panda on February 05, 2014, 07:46:06 AM
I honestly feel like a lot of FAAB people use those experiences to have a privileged status on the topic of privilege itself. Like the right to define any personal experience as being disadvantaged relative to an ideal norm that, frankly, they have never experienced the other side of either. And it works, I feel like ->-bleeped-<- and like a horrible person, I feel wrong and shameful for even beginning to object, because I utterly do respect and regard all people as equals, (though I admittedly struggle with a fear of men) even if I also feel like it's just an incredibly loaded topic.  People shouldn't deny and misrepresent their past, but I feel that you also shouldn't parade a concept around in front of them that on a personal level can easily seem objectifying, mildly vilifying and that is provoking a spectrum of reactions which you can comfortably veto just because you have a general belief about their very personal experiences in life, which you have never experienced. I just don't like it. It just makes me uncomfortable. Maybe a lot of MAAB people are everything that FAAB people believe they must be, and are all immediately complicit as privileged people, but being automatically included in this thing that honestly feels like it has nothing to do with me, who has always struggled to simply feel like a human being, and who has always struggled to feel worthy of the most basic affection or approval from anyone at all, just feels dirty, invalidating and really unpleasant. I don't know. I just hate these generalizations that don't make anyone feel better anyway. /rant. I'm really sorry. :( ><

Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk. 

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk.

I think that's true.

And those 'privileged' in the majority are a small minority... confused yet? Ya, me too.

I don't think my father felt very privileged growing up a sharecroppers son and going directly to WWII straight from high school along with his (male) buddies to get shot up. He earned far more from this country than was ever paid to him. My history hasn't been particularly 'privileged' either, I've earned everything I've gotten and often was denied even when I was the best, it's life. I'd say the majority fall in this category, so the concept of 'privilege' even if real for a small minority, can be a little offensive to some. Not to me, I just think it's an excuse more than anything. Either way, it doesn't seem to have much purpose, it can only hold back those that buy into it.

Quote from: Nikko on February 05, 2014, 09:31:46 AM

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk.

I think that's true.

And those 'privileged' in the majority are a small minority... confused yet? Ya, me too.

I don't think my father felt very privileged growing up a sharecroppers son and going directly to WWII straight from high school along with his (male) buddies to get shot up. He earned far more from this country than was ever paid to him. My history hasn't been particularly 'privileged' either, I've earned everything I've gotten and often was denied even when I was the best, it's life. I'd say the majority fall in this category, so the concept of 'privilege' even if real for a small minority, can be a little offensive to some. Not to me, I just think it's an excuse more than anything. Either way, it doesn't seem to have much purpose, it can only hold back those that buy into it.

Yeah, I think the 'privilege' in male privilege, white privilege, etc is misleading and distracts from the point it tries to make - that there are inequalities in how women and minorities are treated as groups relative to those not in those groups. And of course intersectionality is very much a thing as well.

The concept of privilege actually works like this: "all other things held constant it is preferable in society to be male rather than female." See how that works? If you look at a chess board, white is better than black because white goes first, right? But would you say a white pawn is better than a black queen? Course not, that would be silly. But a white pawn is better than a black pawn. See?

The issue here is what we call intersectionality. And this refers to all the various alignments of privilege and disprivilege that intersect and compound in society. So you are a dude? That's cool. You are a cis dude? That's better. You are straight cis dude? Damn we are getting somewhere! You are a white straight cis dude? Honey, you got it going on. You are a rich white straight cis dude? Golden ticket!

But in reality it is usually a more complex dynamic than that, with a combination of advantages and disadvantages that create each person's life story. I mean: I grew up with the advantage of being perceived as a dude. Of course I did! But I also grew up trans. Ouch. That sucks man. No really. I'm also white and educated and middle class, which are all big, big wins. On the other hand I'm gay and disabled. Total fail.

Do I come out ahead or behind in all that? ...See that's probs the question you are expecting. But it's the wrong question. Because intersectional analysis was never meant to be used on individuals. The very concept of privilege we are talking about was never designed for case-by-case anecdotal study. It is a social theory. I.e. it is used for studying groups and tendencies within those groups. We can say, accurately, that being trans sucks in our society. That being a trans woman is worse. That being a black trans woman is worse than that. And we know this because of a statistical study that analyzed all that jazz. But that says absolutely nothing about say... Janet Mock's personal experiences.

So like... the whole conversation of "do I have male privilege because I grew up male?" is like... dumb. Feminism is about systems of oppression not whether random individual number 37 had x advantage in their life. Not only is it not really possible to figure that out with any degree of accuracy. It is also not worth the sweat. The goal here is to fix a larger problem. Women are treated like sex objects in our society, they earn less for the same work, their participation in governance is abysmal, and they are systematically kept in that state with limited options for escape. And when you start talking about the world as a whole, it gets so, so much bleaker: millions of missing women due to sex-selected abortion and infanticide, slave trafficking, corrective rape, genital mutilation, the list goes on and on.

This isn't about whether you were beaten up as a kid for "lacking male privilege" (hint: that wasn't the reason), and it drives me slightly batty every time I have to see these conversations. So in the thread's interest of honesty, here's some honesty, yo.

Finally, as to the thread topic: This again? Yes, everyone feels like an outcast in "trans society" as if that's a thing. Do you seriously think it is any way reasonable to expect anything else? We have SO LITTLE in common. Every single one of us comes from different backgrounds with different interests and different experiences. When I have something, anything in common with another trans person, I'm like, dude, that's awesome! Because it is that rare. No really.

Nobodies experience of being "the one unique special different trans person" is actually real. It's this thing we all created in our heads because we feel really really lonely. And dude, that I get. And I'm sorry. It is ->-bleeped-<-.

But we do our best to find commonalities, to find ways to communicate about the ONE thing that bonds us together. Awesome! But dude, if I want to socialize, I'll go chill with a bunch of other editors or something. Cause... duh?

Thanks FA and thanks Sarah7! :)

I think I lost my point somewhere. I totally get privilege and why it's useful to know on a sociological level. I just think it is personalized way too often and way too liberally. I don't mean to point fingers or anything at all, bc the first reason I thought of it was because I realized that *I* had done it myself. I had used a prejudice about MTFs to attribute someone's personal experience to a privilege they didn't even experience. That was ridiculous of me. I mean, I allowed myself to phrase it that way but where it was really coming from was my judgments toward trans women. It was not about privilege. It wasn't personal and it shouldn't have been made personal, and I really should have stepped back and used that to evaluate my own issues, because it was an indicator of my own issues. I'm trying to learn from that here. :)

Umh, similarly, I don't know, I think this happens a lot. And I think it has this unwritten potency when it's coming from a FAAB person especially. Not for any good reason. It just so happens that FAAB people's opinions are given more value, weight and legitimacy on this topic (in the sphere of their own typical experiences, which is totally fair, but also experiences they may have no personal understanding of).. I think it's easy to abuse without meaning to abuse it.

For example, I mean when talking about MTF trans people's experiences and communication style, I don't think it is responsible to invoke their socialization. It's dismissive. It might be due to their socialization, but what if it's just a part of who they are? Is that wrong? You can't help but think that that is the implication. That it's wrong. It's masculine. It's privilege-y. They're masculine, they're privileged, they're different than me. That train of thought happens quickly and effortlessly and it IS a slippery slope that so many cis people are happy with. MAAB people come in all stripes. Maybe super masculine people just transition more. Maybe you have a problem with that... it ultimately has nothing to do with whether or not male socialization influenced it. But, maybe you don't want to say that you have a problem with that. It's easier to talk about it indirectly, oh, it's just their socialization, they can't help it (but it's very uncomfortable for me, oh I don't understand it.) It's an impersonal way to express a very personal judgment about real experiences you've had with those people.

I guess I'm being so critical about it because I'm frustrated with myself. Honestly, I have trouble interacting with a lot of trans women. Not all trans women by any means, but a large percentage of them. I've collected a lot of biases about that. It was really ironic that I started blaming their socialization too, without knowing much about it, and because of occasional similarities with cis men, I let it become an extension of my fear of men, feeling certain that I was different, separate just because I have a billion problems that most people don't understand. Maybe it was a legitimate concern for me though, having been sexualized and treated inappropriately by trans women multiple times in a way that I have never, ever experienced from FAAB people. That's a real issue (when it happens.) I mean, those are real feelings, they shouldn't be written off over socialization. Because even IF it causes those behaviors it doesn't excuse them. Everyone is still responsible for who they are, or at the very least who they are trying to be... but it's so easy to just go, it's my/their socialization, I/they can't help it. It's easier to say that than to try to change. Or to address what you really specifically feel.

Calling me (I mean general me, people in my position) different than cis women may or may not be true. Yeah, stereotypically I've had different experiences, but nobody deserves to say how that translates to my personal situation or how that has shaped my personality. Ofc I am different than cis women. Cis women are different than other cis women. It is never all-encompassing, ever. But I feel that focusing so much on the technical existence of that difference is sending a different message at least some of the time. Between the lines, it's telling me I can never be something. It's rejecting  a part of me, even if it wasn't aimed at me. Maybe I'm too sensitive? Probably am... But really I feel like it's revealing some level of bias from the person who's saying it. I'm guilty of the same thing. But I'm trying to be more aware of that and stop using it as an excuse. Even just in my own head. I don't know, maybe I'm the only person who even struggled with any of this. Hah. Gosh, I take everything too seriously. Well... at least in that case I'm reforming myself! :S

(PS... this is not necessarily a comment on anything anyone has said, I didn't have any specific examples in mind while writing it. It's just my general/personal experience with this that was evoked by the topic. But I feel like it's sort of relevant.)

QuoteI guess I'm being so critical about it because I'm frustrated with myself. Honestly, I have trouble interacting with a lot of trans women. Not all trans women by any means, but a large percentage of them.

It feels to me you're over-thinking all of this, a lot. I think problems faced by transgender people has much more to do with simply going against societal norms and has nothing to do with 'privilege' being invoked by non-trans people.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 05, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
Do I come out ahead or behind in all that? ...See that's probs the question you are expecting. But it's the wrong question. Because intersectional analysis was never meant to be used on individuals. The very concept of privilege we are talking about was never designed for case-by-case anecdotal study. It is a social theory. I.e. it is used for studying groups and tendencies within those groups. We can say, accurately, that being trans sucks in our society. That being a trans woman is worse. That being a black trans woman is worse than that. And we know this because of a statistical study that analyzed all that jazz. But that says absolutely nothing about say... Janet Mock's personal experiences.

So like... the whole conversation of "do I have male privilege because I grew up male?" is like... dumb. Feminism is about systems of oppression not whether random individual number 37 had x advantage in their life. Not only is it not really possible to figure that out with any degree of accuracy. It is also not worth the sweat. The goal here is to fix a larger problem. Women are treated like sex objects in our society, they earn less for the same work, their participation in governance is abysmal, and they are systematically kept in that state with limited options for escape. And when you start talking about the world as a whole, it gets so, so much bleaker: millions of missing women due to sex-selected abortion and infanticide, slave trafficking, corrective rape, genital mutilation, the list goes on and on.

This isn't about whether you were beaten up as a kid for "lacking male privilege" (hint: that wasn't the reason), and it drives me slightly batty every time I have to see these conversations. So in the thread's interest of honesty, here's some honesty, yo.

Thank you!  This was very illuminating to me!

Quote from: Nikko on February 05, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
It feels to me you're over-thinking all of this, a lot. I think problems faced by transgender people has much more to do with simply going against societal norms and has nothing to do with 'privilege' being invoked by non-trans people.

I'm sorry >< I'm not sure I completely understood you here. Can you elaborate? By problems faced by transgender people, do you mean in communication styles/just not fitting in or?

Thanks!!

Quote from: sad panda on February 05, 2014, 03:44:39 PM

For example, I mean when talking about MTF trans people's experiences and communication style, I don't think it is responsible to invoke their socialization. It's dismissive. It might be due to their socialization, but what if it's just a part of who they are? Is that wrong? You can't help but think that that is the implication. That it's wrong. It's masculine. It's privilege-y. They're masculine, they're privileged, they're different than me.

I agree it shouldn't be dismissed. But I always wonder why people think it's odd that a lot of trans people have leftovers from their upbringing. When you're trans, there's this implication that you must be ultra feminine - that you were so feminine you had to transition and vice versa. That somehow a trans woman who was raised male should just magically lack male traits. It's like we're supposed to just be a brain in a bubble until transition that soaked up nothing. But socialization is at least as much about people's reactions to us than anything about us. And I don't think the average cis woman would be very feminine in behavior if she were raised a boy either. And one thing that often gets overlooked is that feminine behavior in a boy and masculine behavior in a girl gets magnified. The 'feminine' traits in a boy are given much more weight than any masculine traits he has. As a result, you could have a trans woman who was feminine as a man, but comes off masculine as a woman. Those masculine traits are just more obvious now.


Maybe I'm getting off topic.

QuoteUmh, similarly, I don't know, I think this happens a lot. And I think it has this unwritten potency when it's coming from a FAAB person especially. Not for any good reason. It just so happens that FAAB people's opinions are given more value, weight and legitimacy on this topic (in the sphere of their own typical experiences, which is totally fair, but also experiences they may have no personal understanding of).. I think it's easy to abuse without meaning to abuse it.

Well, I apologize if I came off that way (I think I'm one of the few FAAB posters in this thread). As far as FAAB people's voices on this having more weight, I don't know about that. But I do think though that 'male privilege' (still hoping for a better term) or sexism or whatever is more visible and harmful to those without it. It's kind of like I certainly don't feel privileged for being white. I haven't had an easy life, etc. But a POC is probably a lot more aware of not being white than I am of being white. I'm not aware of all the subtle ways my life has been easier (or what have you) because of it. So if we were having a discussion on race inequalities, my going on about not being a privileged white person may sound dismissive to a POC. Not because she wants to be a sanctimonious ->-bleeped-<-, but because race inequality has been a much bigger issue in her life than mine. Racial inequalities have been a real obstacle in her life. Just as gender inequalities have.

I think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 05:59:31 PMI think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.

Actually, it's kind of a much bigger issue than just feeling sad about missing a female childhood. What has historically happened with this argument is that it has led to denial of services to MAAB women, along with seriously obscuring the intersection that creates transmisogyny. We now have the stats to back up the statement that on the list of kinds of women you really, really, really don't want to be in North America: trans women stand at the top. Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

^This couldn't be more true. If you looked up femme male in the dictionary you'd see my face. I hung out with mainly girls as a kid and teen (but I did have guy friends too). I became a witch as age 15. And I mean I did a ceremony and everything and created a cleansing pool in the woods by my house and erected a tree house for my Wiccan spells and worship of the Goddess Diana of the Hunt. Hence, it being int he woods. And my friends destroyed it. Literally burned it to the ground after I worked for months on it. Only my one friend tried to stop them. Or so he says.

I got beat up constantly. People always wanted to fight me. I dressed andro. I acted like a punk girl and dyed my hair light pink with a fauxhawk. I had a girlfriend though so that helped. And even one day at lunch my friends and I were discussing what we would become. And my two friends Stef and Misty said in unison: Housewife! So that says a lot. But was a isocialized female. NO. I have no diea what it's like to have a period or to worry about becoming pregnant. I wasnt invited to girls only parties. I was treated different than males but that doesnt mean female socialization. It's not either or. And I agree, it is kind of offensive to suggest that a femme male knows the tribulations of growing up female and the beauty and disney princess coporate gender crap that is forced downb girls throats.

Did I expereince male privilege? Id ont know. Not in the normal way But for certain I did. I went to prison at 18. A girl would have got off. That's a plus to being female. Trust me i coulda been arrested five times since i transitioned and im always let go. But there's another stuff like getting jobs and such. I know I got paid more at one job cause i was a white male and the guy told me to keep it on the QT. Male privilege. He prob thought I was gay but a lot of people where i live dont care about being gay they just dont like all the pride fests. And there isnt many in Philly. Not big ones. Well maybe there is but the culture in Pgilly is to keep things on the down low and invite the people who want to come to avoid bad people or rabble rousers.

So as much as I feel i didnt really experience full-fledged male privilege, I certainly received some of it. And women have it much worse in many ways especially with the whole beauty culture and being expected to be pretty24/7. It's a real eye opener for me.

Five months ago I woulda said  no, i didnt get male privilege. But ya live and learn. I know I'll never know what it is truly like to be female. But, I am intersexed, so all im trying to do is get as close as possible and have a "Half Life" which is better than no life.

Great post FA!

But now I read Sarah7's:

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 05, 2014, 07:10:15 PM
Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

This is so true. I am a drug addict. My mom finally accpeted me and let me move in and i can dress how i want I just cant wear eye makeup, which is no big deal. ( I actually cant beleive she accepts me. it's like a drream. Im wearing skinny jeans a bra and a cute pinkish top and she gave me money for my meds. I have no idea what id did. I cleaned the ice off her car, but it cant be that). But I have and was on the streets in December and no one would help me. I was clean for years, but I lost my job for being trans and i begged my boss that this would ruin everything with my BF cause he will only support me for a couple months, if that. He isn't rich. And he has been carrying me. But I cant get any help. The Suboxone clinic I go to basically stiole my money and wont fill out the paper work for insurance and the stupid lady that helped me get insurance put down I was trans. Thanks it really helped. I tired getting into rehab as my BF woyulndt let me live there as i stole from him until I went to detox. So I was on the streets, with some guy following me and he was abouyt to attack me until i screamed rape, and at this one place, they literally did next to nothing. So Sarah7 is right: after transition, male privilege vanishes like a virgin on prom night and it doesnt come back. So there is simply no comparison to the status of a trans woman to a cis woman. a cis female has it tons better. It's not even in the same league. There's almost nothing worse then being a trans woman in AMERICA. a country that lags behind iran in regards to trans rights. Think about that. I hope the West Coast is different cause thats where I want to go. I hate Philly. If you're thinking of moving here, dont. It's gritty and the people are so nasty. Guys are usually nice tome these days but thats cause of my boobs.

Ill stop rambling I hope that made sense. I been writing all day so...yeah.

OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

Most transwomen will not deny that their socialization and experience was different than a cisgender woman's.  Of course it was different.  And yes, we do feel bad about some of the things we missed out on, but that isn't the point we are making when we bring up our differences at a young age (or at least the point I'm trying to make)  The thing is that living as a transwomen presents many problems in a world that is largely against us.  Sure, we may have privilege for how we were assigned at birth, but at the same time that very distinction as male was what made life so hard.  Life as a male is very rigid.  If you break out of the norms, which happens to be the case for many transwomen, believe me, you won't feel very privileged.  As FA said a little above, discrepancies get picked up on in "fem guys".  Often young transwomen are unfairly treated like a social pariah because we break the mold in many ways and it can cost us which is why many of us try to hide or deny ourselves. It's not to say we experienced the same thing cisgender women do because we were teased for being different than the other boys.  That's silly. Yes, our experiences and social expectations do differ greatly; however, it also really does feel so wrong to be lumped in with the experience of the average straight cisgender male when many of us don't feel we lived that life in any sense and when it was a source of discomfort.  At least it feels odd to me.  Not that I deny there is an existence of male privilege or deny that I have benefited from it in my life in some sense, but in many ways the male social expectations played against me and caused me great harm.  There are so many shades to life and so many factors that can alter how one is perceived that I think the whole notion of privilege obscures the reality of what many of us experience.  That's why the talk of privilege and lumping transwomen in with cismen in some ways makes me feel very uncomfortable despite the fact that I acknowledge the clear differences between the socialization/ expectations of "men" and "women".  Hope that makes sense.

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 05:59:31 PM
I agree it shouldn't be dismissed. But I always wonder why people think it's odd that a lot of trans people have leftovers from their upbringing. When you're trans, there's this implication that you must be ultra feminine - that you were so feminine you had to transition and vice versa. That somehow a trans woman who was raised male should just magically lack male traits. It's like we're supposed to just be a brain in a bubble until transition that soaked up nothing. But socialization is at least as much about people's reactions to us than anything about us. And I don't think the average cis woman would be very feminine in behavior if she were raised a boy either. And one thing that often gets overlooked is that feminine behavior in a boy and masculine behavior in a girl gets magnified. The 'feminine' traits in a boy are given much more weight than any masculine traits he has. As a result, you could have a trans woman who was feminine as a man, but comes off masculine as a woman. Those masculine traits are just more obvious now.

Well, leftovers yes, a whole personality... probably not?

Mmmh. It's hard to say. I don't really have beliefs either way about this. Because I believe it has an effect, but then I've seen people develop mannerisms that ran completely counter to the way they were socialized. I personally think there's a person's natural temperament, and I also think that temperament shapes socialization to some degree. A feminine guy will continue to have a different socialization that would be invisible to a masculine guy. So what is a male/female socialization? I don't think there can be only 1 of each type. I think it's unique to every person and just male or female is not enough to even assess much of anything about it. And I can't seriously be the only person who believes there are trans women who think, feel and behave exactly like normal cis women? :S

I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense ><

Quote
Well, I apologize if I came off that way (I think I'm one of the few FAAB posters in this thread). As far as FAAB people's voices on this having more weight, I don't know about that. But I do think though that 'male privilege' (still hoping for a better term) or sexism or whatever is more visible and harmful to those without it. It's kind of like I certainly don't feel privileged for being white. I haven't had an easy life, etc. But a POC is probably a lot more aware of not being white than I am of being white. I'm not aware of all the subtle ways my life has been easier (or what have you) because of it. So if we were having a discussion on race inequalities, my going on about not being a privileged white person may sound dismissive to a POC. Not because she wants to be a sanctimonious ->-bleeped-<-, but because race inequality has been a much bigger issue in her life than mine. Racial inequalities have been a real obstacle in her life. Just as gender inequalities have.

I think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.

Yeah, I can totally see how that is frustrating. Invalidation is always frustrating. I'm really sorry if I seemed ignorant of that. It is not cool. :( you are absolutely right about the need for better terminology. I think the problem is the implied feeling that every MAAB person is culpable that provokes defensiveness, when it is just as beyond their own control as it is anyone else's.

I do also think there's another side of the coin that is frustrating, which is that men are not supposed to complain. Men won't be as willing to acknowledge if something is difficult for them or unfair to them. So when they do, it's not taken seriously. If a man says that it really sucks to have been raised believing that his feelings do not matter and that nobody will listen if he needs emotional support, and that people will blame him first for any of his problems, I don't think that's taken seriously. Men are expected to minimize their problems. And when this is brought up with feminists, their problems are always reduced to a symptom of the patriarchy. Yeah, but it still sucks, it is still wrong and he's still suffering. It still goes both ways and nobody is individually responsible for that. You know?

I think that's why it's sort of questionable to attach personal stories to broader social problems, even if it is tempting or just plain true.... If a woman experiences sexism, it is sexist and it is bad and wrong, but is it worth going, "freaking male privilege!!" over it? How do they know that they specifically wouldn't experience something as difficult as their personal problem as a man? Honestly, how do they know? And does it hurt less or change anything to know that it was caused by sexism? Maybe it does... Idk.

Mmmm... like, I am working through a lot of mental health problems right now and don't feel able to work. I am supported by my boyfriend. If I were still living as a man, I probably would not be. My parents, who don't understand my problems and don't understand why I couldn't work, would have kicked me out by now, and I would probably be homeless right now. Yet, as a woman, I am taken care of financially and not expected to earn money. Even my own father has suddenly given me more love, empathy and support than he ever did before I transitioned. My in-laws don't complain that I don't have a job and aren't bothered by it. I'm not treated like a parasite or a deadbeat. There's really no pressure.. I feel incredibly guilty about this. Is it kind of sexist? Is it only that way because I'm not as respected, I'm not trusted as competent and I would have less actual job opportunities if I were looking for work? Maybe... but the fact is that a man in my position would probably not get any sympathy, just because he were a man. He would probably be homeless. And that really and truly sucks, no matter why it sucks.

Okay this is to both Joanna Dark and Suzi. First that is super ->-bleeped-<-ing awful Joanna, and I'm so sorry you've been through all that. I really hope things start to improve for you and I'm glad you have the support of your mum now. And Suzi, I'm glad that has been your experience, that's fab!

But unfortunately this is exactly the problem I was talking about before. The concept of privilege and disempowerment as a social ill, is not really reducible to individuals. What you both have experienced in your own lives are just single points on a data set of hundreds or thousands, depending on the size of the study. What you look at in sociology are trends, and what those trends mean for a group of people on average. You can't say "this is going to happen to x person." You can't even say "this is the chance of this happening to x person." All that can actually be said are things like "on average, a trans woman is more likely to experience homelessness over the course of her life than a cis woman." See the diff? A lot of the "social justice" movement online has really lost track of this basic concept: that you can't go from a generalization about a social group to the experience of a specific individual, and you can't go from the experience of a specific individual to a generalization about a social group. That isn't how the data works.

So basically, Suzi and Joanna, your experiences are your own. And they are 100% valid as your own experiences. But as evidence for or against the existence of transmisogyny in our society? Two data points is very, very weak. The study I'm talking about used a sample size in the thousands: http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 05, 2014, 07:10:15 PM

Actually, it's kind of a much bigger issue than just feeling sad about missing a female childhood. What has historically happened with this argument is that it has led to denial of services to MAAB women, along with seriously obscuring the intersection that creates transmisogyny. We now have the stats to back up the statement that on the list of kinds of women you really, really, really don't want to be in North America: trans women stand at the top. Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off trivializing though I can see how that statement about being sad about missing a female childhood might. And there are some so called 'feminists' who use the 'male privilege/male upbringing' as a weapon against trans women. While I can understand the point that it is a different thing to grow up female in the world and that should be recognized, I don't think it's relevant to trans women's lives who have their own upbringing to overcome. Being born and recognized as female and all that entails in a sexist world is just one thing they didn't have to deal with. It doesn't mean anything or say anything about their femininity or experience. It's probably even an asset in some ways (the same way my not growing up repressed as a boy is an asset).

Anyway, growing up female sucks, growing up male sucks. They just suck in different ways. When being trans is added to that, it sucks even worse. But to grow up female and be socialized female is basically to learn how to be 'less' in everything. To learn to be an object. No matter how your parents or teachers try to empower you, you still learn everyday through your culture that people with a body like yours are objects. And that you are an object to be commented on and evaluated based on your flesh above all else. People with bodies like yours are just that - bodies.

"To live in a culture in which women are routinely naked where men aren't is to learn inequality in little ways all day long." - Naomi Wolf

That's huge and damaging but subtle. Now obviously the way boys are raised is also very damaging. I'm just saying it's different to grow up in a culture where people of your sex are decidedly second class and less than. And demeaned and devalued everywhere you look. Girls are defined by their sex. Boys aren't. Our sex is a girl's main characteristic. We are SEX and little else in this culture. And everyone reinforces it from your teachers (even female) who don't call on you or encourage you as much as the boys to everyone else. Hell, maybe they're trying to help. Smarts never got a girl anywhere. To be born a girl is to be born second class, the Sex Class.

Sure, there may be some girls who succeeded despite all that, but how many more would there be if this wasn't a thing?

Sorry that turned into a rant of sorts. Wow, I sound like a feminist. Oh the shame. Anyway, I know you know all this Sarah. I'm just talking about it because it's been on my mind as I try to work through the lingering effects of it.

You know I used to be kind of sexist before transition. Used to be offended that they would have to call female cops to frisk me. Hell, offended at the very existence of female cops! I don't know what happened.

Anyway, the very long winded point I'm trying to make is that many FAAB people are bitter with good reason (growing up female in a male world sucks.) That bitterness is misdirected at trans women who fall into the same and worse trap of misogyny in a male world. I'm just saying I get why FAAB get all up in arms about childhood and socialization. Because it sucks, growing up female. But absence of a female childhood doesn't save trans women who are then subject to all manner of sexism on top of trans misogyny. I'm sure whatever 'male privilege' they may have experienced is little comfort. I mean, I know about the murder rate of trans women. I was not trying to minimize that at all. I'm just trying to explain what I think some FAAB are feeling. Being female in this world hurts trans or cis. In a way that being male doesn't (not that being male doesn't hurt).

*hugs to everyone*

That was an awesome post FA. And Sarah7 :)

And wow, Joanna, sorry life has been so hard for you lately. I hope you are okay. :(

Wow, there is just so much feeling in this thread. I probably don't express myself very well but I really wish the world could publicly and honestly have this dialog and agree that everyone is valuable and everyone deserves to be loved and respected. /sappy rant

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 08:45:21 PM
Sorry that turned into a rant of sorts. Wow, I sound like a feminist. Oh the shame. Anyway, I know you know all this Sarah. I'm just talking about it because it's been on my mind as I try to work through the lingering effects of it.

We are the Feminists, you will be assimilated. ;)

No, I totes agree with everything you've said, I just wanted to add the extra layer because it's super important and people need to not forget how the male privilege gets overshadowed by the transmisogyny and all. You are a good.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 05, 2014, 07:43:03 PM
OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

This is very interesting.

I suppose it depends on what a person values as to whether belonging to a group yields an advantage or disadvantage (or privilege or not). If your value is income level, then being male could be seen as privilege (but not much these days, when studied correctly, i.e., keeping all other things equal (constant), then income disparities nearly disappear). But if your value is the likelihood of having a door opened for you, then female privilege is in play.

Like most things, it all depends how you look at it and whether you're a glass is half full or half empty kind of person.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 05, 2014, 07:43:03 PM
OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

No flames hon.  :) I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists. Some would call it 'benevolent sexism' and they may have a point with that. When you're on the street, this becomes apparent. Women are offered rides and other assistance before men are. I've been in a situation where I as a starving junkie was offered food when my male companion was not (they even made sure it was for me and not my male friend). 

As a woman you know you can easily find help if needed. Now, often times there is an agenda behind this 'help'. Men are quick to offer assistance to a woman in hope of getting something in return. I also experienced getting mugged by a gang of thugs as a white man in a part of town I had lived in for years and was totally safe as a woman. I'm sure it's because I seemed to have money as white man on a Friday night in that part of town. As a white woman, I lived and walked there with no problem.

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 09:54:50 PM
No flames hon.  :) I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists.

What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 05, 2014, 10:14:36 PM

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 09:54:50 PM
No flames hon.  :) I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists.

What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy. The promise or even hope of pussy accounts for a lot of chivalry. Men have to have something other than themselves to recommend them. Women have a pussy. Other than that, women can easily get help because they are seen as non capable and non threatening. A man should be able to fend for himself, so no one bothers about him. I mean, if you need help and look like a woman, it's nice that you can more easily get help, but it's not exactly flattering. Down and out, it's nicer to be female. You can probably eat easier. But if you're trying to get anywhere, it's harder.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 05, 2014, 10:14:36 PM
What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

Basically the difference is about power. A privilege is a result of a power difference between two groups. We live in a society where disabled folks are massively disempowered. When you talk about them getting medical treatment for free, you aren't talking about a privilege.

It seems pedantic, but it's a super important distinction because it helps with understanding things like why you'd want something like affirmative action in order to offset a power imbalance (i.e., a pre-existing privilege), even though on a surface level it's offering an unequal advantage. It also gets into the difference between equality and equity.

Equality is everyone gets the same. Equity is about trying to define "fair" based on context and give everyone that. It might be equal to offer a dude with muscular dystrophy the same level of support as an able-bodied dude, but it wouldn't be fair. Nah?

it's also why as a sociological concept "female privilege" doesn't really exist in our society, because our society's power imbalance goes in the other direction. Like I said, the whole concept is a pretty specific tool that is used to analyze how our society works and try to make things better.

For example, the whole people stopping for women... That's not a privilege, that's actually just a side-effect of the unequal system that exists. Basically, people stop for women because they are considered less-threatening. They are considered less-threatening because they have less power. There is actually a whole cool chunk of research being done in Men's Studies around how the power-imbalance that exists is actually really terrible, particularly in the psychological costs, for lots of dudes. But that doesn't make the system we exist in not a patriarchy. That just means there are bad results from fundamental power-imbalances built into a society, and some of those affect the privileged group. Doesn't make the group not privileged. So ya. Social science is fun!

QuoteI'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy.

Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   :D

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 10:42:25 PM
I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy. The promise or even hope of pussy accounts for a lot of chivalry. Men have to have something other than themselves to recommend them. Women have a pussy. Other than that, women can easily get help because they are seen as non capable and non threatening. A man should be able to fend for himself, so no one bothers about him. I mean, if you need help and look like a woman, it's nice that you can more easily get help, but it's not exactly flattering. Down and out, it's nicer to be female. You can probably eat easier. But if you're trying to get anywhere, it's harder.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 05, 2014, 10:43:21 PM
Basically the difference is about power. A privilege is a result of a power difference between two groups. We live in a society where disabled folks are massively disempowered. When you talk about them getting medical treatment for free, you aren't talking about a privilege.

Thank you for these.  I'm not sure that I agree.  But I also know I'm not feeling very clear headed tonight, which is why I'm not saying much.  But I appreciate the clarification of what was being expressed.  Thank you.

Quote from: Nikko on February 05, 2014, 10:51:38 PM

QuoteI'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy.

Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   :D

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.

LOL But honestly, that's about it. That's how women get about in the world. Everyone knows this on a gut level, but no one says it. Women know it. That's why they do what they do.

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 11:05:43 PM
Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   :D

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.


LOL But honestly, that's about it. That's how women get about in the world. Everyone knows this on a gut level, but no one says it. Women know it. That's why they do what they do.

:D  Oh I hear ya, I agree 100%!

I will say this: the idea that trans women are basically men in how they talk and interact is offensive as heck. I can't even believe it was said. Wow. Maybe I miss read it but I dont think so.

To the OP: you dont want to say anythign about your past but you say you were socialized female yet born male and lived most of your adult life as a male, but you just dont' speak male yet they speak to you for over a half hour? As soon as I try to associate with men as a man, everyone shuts up like cats who swallowed canaries or somethign like that. I don't know. I'm intersexed, which is something I rarely, if ever, mention. I grew boobs at age 12 and didn't pass as a boy until 2008 when I started taking steroids. People assumed I was a girl until I told them otherwise. I was in a halfway house at age 18 as I was kickd out and the guys wanted me to wear women's clothes, they had them alll set out, like im some idiot and would just wear them. I shaved my head to help, and they all said wow, now you should put a nzi symbol on your forehead you look like a manson girl.

So, what's that make me? But I still feel I got male privilege. Not the good kind: when I was 18 and was sent to prison for two years for a crime that a female would have got six months probation for if even arrested, I was sexually assaulted by two men and people literally bid on me. I still have nightmares. I made friends with a very large transsexual and the problems stopped. The other thing was men are men and many of them straight up treated me as a woman and stopped people from picking on me. Their words: I don't like people picking on girls. I also started working out and all people said was yeah you really bulked up, trying to be a bull dyke? Another guy kept calling me cupcake and he contolled the laundary and gave me all smalls which empasized my oversized butt and really made my booobs stick out. I remember the first comment from this guy, who basically protected me cause he was just cool like tyhat and even smoked weeed with me, but he was like wow Mal, yeah they called me Mallory, you have boobs. What are they B cups. Nice. Most guys simply would not fight me and i tried many times just to prove I would and they never, ever would. I don't fight girls wa always the answer. They even wanted to put me on A block. Now, this might sound fun or cool to some, cause it means i look femme, but you begin to understand how horrid it was. For two years, I was always afraid. But then once I heard in another prsion they give people like me female hormones, and that's the first I ever heard of it. I just thought you got a sex change a voila. Now I know.

After I got out my life got much better, and I started dating a lesbian until she wanted a man. I edited a women's magazine, my life was great from 2004-2008.  In 2008, after the steroids, i lost to a girl in an arm wrestling contest, and she said: I still have never lost to another girl like it was some point of pride. Her brother started whsispering something like shhhh, she'll hear.

But I just dont understand how the OP is different from other trans women. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, and forgive me if I am, but it sounded that way and I dont know why noone pointed out. Maybe I'm going insane.

See the thing is, I have been friends with guys, and every single time, when I hang out with the group of guys, I never hang out again. When they play catch, no one throws to me. When I tried to play football in seventh grade, they said the cheerleader team is over there little girl. I eventually got on but they couldnt find shoulder pads for me as my shoulders are 13 inches across. Whren I got my grad pics taken they asked me why I was wearing a suit and not a dress like I was supposed to.

Yet, because i'm so andro, once I say im male people believe it, well not always, some want to see my id and some when I was kid held me down and wanted to see my vagina since they did not believe I was a man. These were my friends. The one I actually went out with and I dont know how but he knew I was going to get a sex change and told me that a lot of times people kill themselves after. I can't even count how many times people have asked me if I'm trans way before transition.

I probably shouldnt have even said any of this. It seems pointless. But I just fail to understand why you are different from other transsexuals. Why you feel you were socialized female. Don't take offense i'd just like to know cause I consider myself socialized male and I did get some privilege from time to time but thats gone now. Now I get groped on train platforms by creeps or have guys come up and start following me and holding myh hand and trying to kiss me. But I'm just at a loss. I really wish I could unknow everything I have read on this thread.

Because really I fit in nowhere. However, most girls love being friends with me and always say, you're just like us. My ex's friends referred to me as a girl like it was nothing and once my ex said im a girly girl. And I said: don't you mean girly guy. And she said no, i don't. Girly girl. You're a woman with a penis. Look at you. You have boobs and teeny tiny hands and feet smaller than most women. Every single woman i have been friends with wanted me to wear her clothes, go shopping and try on makeup and stuff. This isn't bragging. It does me no good since I dont pass in winter. I just get funny looks. I do pass sometimes but winter has killed my ability to pass for some strange reason. I think it's the skin. Im rambling and have now offended everyone prolly but I had to say it. sorry, just sorry. I dont edit. That's the only thing could thathas come from my condition: my frienships with women. My BFF from college and I used to pass notes and talk about guys and make fun of people, ya know, for kicks. Nothing mean. But now I think am I even trans? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's all because people have told me how female i look and act my whole life. Alll my cousins have a white spot in between their breasts. I do too. Once when i was 12, I took my shirt off, and they saw it. They also saw my boobs coming in. It was so embarassing i wanted to die. TTRhey al started laughing look matty has the mark just like all of us and he's growing boobs. OMG!!!!   So, when you going to get your bikini. I remember it like yesterday. I never took my shirt off again. So, was I socialized male? I think so. But i am a very femme guy and there is no hiding it. It seeps out. If I get excited, I get all enthusiastic and happy and gush like a girl. My ex-BF thinks it's hilarious.

I guess it doesnt matter; I'm jusy me and more than anything I just want my BF back. I want him back so bad. So if i offended anyone please take this into account. Im kind of in a bad place but not for long. I got jobs and things are going my way. I know people think Mexico is horrid for SRS vut for me, its that or nothing. And id rather have that. I really believe it's going to happen. And I can be complete. Gawd, I aid tooooo much,.

Quote from: sad panda on February 05, 2014, 04:37:57 PM
I'm sorry >< I'm not sure I completely understood you here. Can you elaborate? By problems faced by transgender people, do you mean in communication styles/just not fitting in or?

Thanks!!

Oops, sorry, I thought you were the OP.  :D

QuoteI just read through this whole thread and I must say I am sickened. I'm not going to name names. I'm simply going to leave this conversation. I will say this: the idea that trans women are basically men in how they talk and interact is offensive as heck. I can't even believe it was allowed to be said. Wow. Maybe I miss read it but I dont think so.

I just feel people over-think all of this, a point I made earlier (I made it to sad panda which is why I apologized above, I meant it for the OP). I don't mean anything disrespectful by it.

I've known more trans people than not, that try to look for something in their past (or present) that proves to them they're a woman in a man's body (or visa versa). Or it's some trigger for them if they don't seem to fit in the trans community. It doesn't matter IMO. You're transitioning because you want to transition. Accept it. But what do I know? Not much it seems.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
I will say this: the idea that trans women are basically men in how they talk and interact is offensive as heck. I can't even believe it was said. Wow. Maybe I miss read it but I dont think so.

I started this thread a long time ago and I have not reread my original post, but that doesn't sound like the sort of thing I would normally say.  What I would say is that most transwomen were raised as boys to become men, they socialized out in the world as men, and they learned to talk and interact as men in order to function.  When they transition, that learned behavior does not vanish.  Eventually new behaviors are learned by some.  Some have no interest in learning new social patterns.  And for others, they just don't take to them very well.  Result:  lots of masculinity in many, but not all, interactions with transwomen.  I think that's slightly different.  It's not that transwomen aren't women.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
To the OP: you dont want to say anythign about your past but you say you were socialized female yet born male and lived most of your adult life as a male, but you just dont' speak male yet they speak to you for over a half hour?

Well, I tend to talk mostly abut the last 3 years or so of my life.  But basically, yes, I don't want to discuss my distant past.  Which is why I have never said that I was born male.  People tend to assume that.  I get more than a little tired of correcting them.  So it's best to just let it slide unless it's directly relevant to something. 

I'm not sure what the length of time men talk to me has to do with anything.  I've got one at the moment who will talk to me a lot longer than half an hour.  Whenever I run into him, he will also insist on walking me to everywhere I go.  And he's also asked me out before.  I don't know, maybe those three things are related (of course they are, this is sort of stating the obvious).  It's not the first time I've experienced all three of them going together.  I don't think it's because of how thoroughly I manage to socialize like one of the guys.

As far as my personal history, let's just say that some of my recent encounters with bullies on this website have convinced me that I've already shared too much of my history.  I honestly wish I had never started this thread.  If I knew then what I know now, I never would have felt safe enough to do it.  I needed some support yesterday (I'm better today but still not good) and I knew better than to look for it here. So it's probably pretty unlikely that I'm going to share much more of my personal history any time soon.  I'll probably just stuck to discussing more abstract social and political topics and avoiding most personal discussions about me. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
As soon as I try to associate with men as a man, everyone shuts up like cats who swallowed canaries or somethign like that. I don't know. I'm intersexed, which is something I rarely, if ever, mention.  I grew boobs at age 12 and didn't pass as a boy until 2008 when I started taking steroids. People assumed I was a girl until I told them otherwise. I was in a halfway house at age 18 as I was kickd out and the guys wanted me to wear women's clothes, they had them alll set out, like im some idiot and would just wear them. I shaved my head to help, and they all said wow, now you should put a nzi symbol on your forehead you look like a manson girl.

You have a history you don't like to talk about and that you seldom, if ever mention.  So do I.  Why is that okay for you, but not me?  One bit of mine that I've been pretty forthright about is my hormonal history.  I've taken both testosterone and estrogen.  I've been forthright about that because when we talk about the effects of hormones, my history with them means that things happen in ways that are similar to other people, but a bit different.  But I suppose it's also a clue that something a little different from your typical "born biologically male, transitioned to female" transition story is going on with me. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
So, what's that make me? But I still feel I got male privilege. Not the good kind: when I was 18 and was sent to prison for two years for a crime that a female would have got six months probation for if even arrested, I was sexually assaulted by two men and people literally bid on me. I still have nightmares. I made friends with a very large transsexual and the problems stopped. The other thing was men are men and many of them straight up treated me as a woman and stopped people from picking on me. Their words: I don't like people picking on girls. I also started working out and all people said was yeah you really bulked up, trying to be a bull dyke? Another guy kept calling me cupcake and he contolled the laundary and gave me all smalls which empasized my oversized butt and really made my booobs stick out. I remember the first comment from this guy, who basically protected me cause he was just cool like tyhat and even smoked weeed with me, but he was like wow Mal, yeah they called me Mallory, you have boobs. What are they B cups. Nice. Most guys simply would not fight me and i tried many times just to prove I would and they never, ever would. I don't fight girls wa always the answer. They even wanted to put me on A block. Now, this might sound fun or cool to some, cause it means i look femme, but you begin to understand how horrid it was. For two years, I was always afraid. But then once I heard in another prsion they give people like me female hormones, and that's the first I ever heard of it. I just thought you got a sex change a voila. Now I know.

This sounds like an incredibly difficult personal experience that you went through.  I'm sorry that it happened to you.  I believe no one deserves that. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
After I got out my life got much better, and I started dating a lesbian until she wanted a man. I edited a women's magazine, my life was great from 2004-2008.  In 2008, after the steroids, i lost to a girl in an arm wrestling contest, and she said: I still have never lost to another girl like it was some point of pride. Her brother started whsispering something like shhhh, she'll hear.

But I just dont understand how the OP is different from other trans women. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, and forgive me if I am, but it sounded that way and I dont know why noone pointed out. Maybe I'm going insane.

Well, I've explained a little bit above.  But I think the main thing is that just as trans* people do not owe cispeople owe an explanation of what and how and why they are who they are, so too do I not owe you an explanation.  It's nothing personal.  Had you asked me that back when I originally posted, I'd probably have been willing to say more.  But now I'm kind of afraid to do so.  I'm sorry.  I'd imagine that's frustrating. 

What I will point out is that in this forum, in addition to transwomen and transmen, there are also crossdressers, retransitioners, multiple (more than twice) transitioners, people who were biologically born one way but raised to conform to a different gender role, intersex persons, and many other identities besides "other trans women."  It's kind of hard for me to understand why people assume anyone has one particular identity or another.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
See the thing is, I have been friends with guys, and every single time, when I hang out with the group of guys, I never hang out again. When they play catch, no one throws to me. When I tried to play football in seventh grade, they said the cheerleader team is over there little girl. I eventually got on but they couldnt find shoulder pads for me as my shoulders are 13 inches across. Whren I got my grad pics taken they asked me why I was wearing a suit and not a dress like I was supposed to.

Yet, because i'm so andro, once I say im male people believe it, well not always, some want to see my id and some when I was kid held me down and wanted to see my vagina since they did not believe I was a man. These were my friends. The one I actually went out with and I dont know how but he knew I was going to get a sex change and told me that a lot of times people kill themselves after. I can't even count how many times people have asked me if I'm trans way before transition.

I probably shouldnt have even said any of this. It seems pointless. But I just fail to understand why you are different from other transsexuals. Why you feel you were socialized female. Don't take offense i'd just like to know cause I consider myself socialized male and I did get some privilege from time to time but thats gone now. Now I get groped on train platforms by creeps or have guys come up and start following me and holding myh hand and trying to kiss me. But I'm just at a loss. I really wish I could unknow everything I have read on this thread.

Well, one way I differ from "other transsexuals" is in not being a transsexual.  That's just about the only thing you can call me that I will come right out and say no to every time. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
Because really I fit in nowhere. However, most girls love being friends with me and always say, you're just like us. My ex's friends referred to me as a girl like it was nothing and once my ex said im a girly girl. And I said: don't you mean girly guy. And she said no, i don't. Girly girl. You're a woman with a penis. Look at you. You have boobs and teeny tiny hands and feet smaller than most women. Every single woman i have been friends with wanted me to wear her clothes, go shopping and try on makeup and stuff. This isn't bragging. It does me no good since I dont pass in winter. I just get funny looks. I do pass sometimes but winter has killed my ability to pass for some strange reason. I think it's the skin. Im rambling and have now offended everyone prolly but I had to say it. sorry, just sorry. I dont edit.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I for one am not at all offended.  I just hope that this has given you a chance to get some things out that were weighing on you.  I really wish I had something more helpful to say.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 05, 2014, 11:17:17 PM
That's the only thing could thathas come from my condition: my frienships with women. My BFF from college and I used to pass notes and talk about guys and make fun of people, ya know, for kicks. Nothing mean. But now I think am I even trans? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's all because people have told me how female i look and act my whole life. Alll my cousins have a white spot in between their breasts. I do too. Once when i was 12, I took my shirt off, and they saw it. They also saw my boobs coming in. It was so embarassing i wanted to die. TTRhey al started laughing look matty has the mark just like all of us and he's growing boobs. OMG!!!!   So, when you going to get your bikini. I remember it like yesterday. I never took my shirt off again. So, was I socialized male? I think so. But i am a very femme guy and there is no hiding it. It seeps out. If I get excited, I get all enthusiastic and happy and gush like a girl. My ex-BF thinks it's hilarious.

I guess it doesnt matter; I'm jusy me and more than anything I just want my BF back. I want him back so bad. So if i offended anyone please take this into account. Im kind of in a bad place but not for long. I got jobs and things are going my way. I know people think Mexico is horrid for SRS vut for me, its that or nothing. And id rather have that. I really believe it's going to happen. And I can be complete. Gawd, I aid tooooo much,.

I'm glad that things are looking up for you.  :) I hope the future has much happiness in store for you.

@ThePhoenix Oh my god... I'm so sorry I revived this thread, I didn't know any of that was happening. That is so ridiculous that you were bullied, what is wrong with people?? :( For reference, you can edit or delete your old posts to remove the personal info. Hope you're doing OK... :(

Quote from: sad panda on February 06, 2014, 07:08:32 AM
@ThePhoenix Oh my god... I'm so sorry I revived this thread, I didn't know any of that was happening. That is so ridiculous that you were bullied, what is wrong with people?? :( For reference, you can edit or delete your old posts to remove the personal info. Hope you're doing OK... :(

It wasn't this thread.  It's okay. Not to worry.  But thank you for the sentiment. :)