Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I was looking at the question mark next to my avatar today and realised that I find it kind of dissatisfying. The reason I have self-identified as "questioning" is because I don't fall neatly into any of the other listed categories. So here I am questioning in an attempt to determine who and what I am within the limited scope of gender labels.

OK, so I don't feel that I can honestly refer to myself as female, despite having dressed female in private since the age of 7 and having been on HRT for two 6-month stints over the last 2-years. But given my history, nor do I feel comfortable calling myself completely male – I just like switching between the two.

However, my thinking is that if I only dress female in private, present publicly as male and don't stray from mainstream male fashions, I don't think that I really fit the androgyne or queer labels either.

Ugh! I think I'm missing some grand point here and hoping that someone here can help me out.

Clothes don't define you. How do you feel? Perhaps bi-gender and you switch back and forth. Either way it doesn't really matter. You have the only label that matters and that is your name.

I think the answer may depend on why you want to look one way in private and another way in public.  Do you want a different appearance or a different identity in each space?  Are you concerned about not passing as a woman in public, or that if you present as a girl-appearing male that people will give you trouble, or that someone will recognize you in public?  Is your motivation clothes-driven or something broader?  There are lots of possibilities, and sometimes it is difficult to understand or articulate where the difference comes from, but there may be a clue in the reason(s) you have.

Precisely why I never chose one of those gender markers. Instead I call myself a "woman wannabe". Inside I feel male, but I want to be all female in the worst way.

In the end it doesn't matter. I've changed my name to a female name, insist that everyone in my life call my by female pronouns, and mastered enough passability techniques that most people who don't look closely assume I'm female. To everyone in my life (except me), I'm female. I'm thrilled with all that. How I actually feel inside is turning out to be somewhat unimportant.

Quote from: LordKAT on January 17, 2014, 01:06:22 AM
Clothes don't define you. How do you feel?

Well, that's just it: after a lifetime of cross-dressing and "desiring" to be female, I now seem to know a lot less about how I feel about it all (and what is "It" exactly anyway?). I think it's been easier in the past because I didn't really give it much thought. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's certainly no path to wisdom.

QuotePerhaps bi-gender and you switch back and forth. Either way it doesn't really matter. You have the only label that matters and that is your name.

Yes, I can see the wisdom in that. However, we are an enquiring, curious species and knowing and feeling at ease with our behaviours is something quite fundamental to us, I think. Yes, a label is quite a crude instrument, but I believe that labels are necessary to launch into a much deeper exploration of who we are.

Quote from: Kaelin on January 17, 2014, 02:30:02 PM
I think the answer may depend on why you want to look one way in private and another way in public. Do you want a different appearance or a different identity in each space?

I really don't think it has anything to do with private vs. public. I mean, it does in the sense that I'm acutely aware of how some people go a bit strange around people who turn gender on its head. But no, ideally I don't really want two distinct identities. For starters, it's too taxing and complicated with regard to any kind of relationship, be it familial or romantic.

QuoteAre you concerned about not passing as a woman in public, or that if you present as a girl-appearing male that people will give you trouble, or that someone will recognize you in public?

As I said previously, there is an element of holding back because of both real and imagined social repercussions (this fear was heightened during the two 6-month periods that I was HRT). But if this variable were removed from the equation, I think my currently distinct identities would merge in some way.

As for passing, well, I think that's possibly a separate matter. I think passing is a perennial concern for many trans* people, irrespective of the umbrella label that they believe they fall under.

QuoteIs your motivation clothes-driven or something broader?

I mentioned the clothes thing because I can't reconcile why I appear as such a clean-cut mainstream male, considering that (a) I also have a female identity and (b) that female identity is a lot more sartorially adventurous (and, I can say with great confidence, not just because I dress in private).

I also brought up the issue of clothes because generally they are a (conscious or unconscious) display of your actual or desired personality, in the hope that you will attract and, by the same token, discourage particular people from interacting with you socially. So, if this is true, why is my male persona so conservative looking, when it doesn't really match either my private or public identity? In short, why am I being deceptive with regard to both my private and public identities?

QuoteThere are lots of possibilities, and sometimes it is difficult to understand or articulate where the difference comes from, but there may be a clue in the reason(s) you have.

If that's true, then my lack of reasons is perhaps what's blocking ay kind of greater understanding of who I am and where I'm going.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 17, 2014, 06:32:59 PM
I call myself a "woman wannabe". Inside I feel male, but I want to be all female in the worst way... To everyone in my life (except me), I'm female. I'm thrilled with all that. How I actually feel inside is turning out to be somewhat unimportant.

Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone taking your approach before now. What do you mean when you say that you're not concerned with how you feel on the inside? And even if your internal male narrative is unimportant, why did you decide to run with, correct me if I'm wrong, a superficial female exterior?

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 17, 2014, 06:32:59 PM
To everyone in my life (except me), I'm female. I'm thrilled with all that. How I actually feel inside is turning out to be somewhat unimportant.

This makes me happy.

@JS - What Suzi is describing and what I also tend to advocate is the idea of focusing on what you want for yourself (or conversely, avoiding pain), rather than on trying to figure out who you are. That learning how you want to be in this world and how you want to live your life doesn't have to depend on figuring out some fundamental identity inside your head. I tend to think of "transition" as an amalgam of various tools that we can use to find a place to be that is more comfortable than the place we begin at. You don't take HRT because you feel like a woman or a man or whatever, you take HRT because you want the effects of HRT.

I guess it's sort of a more primitive approach. Scrap the theory and feel your way through it, or something like that. But then I am a very sensory-driven creature, so it works for me. And I have very little on the inside in terms of understanding any kind of gender-based identity, so my approach focused mostly on "what can I do to make my life more comfortable" (or more literally, "oh god make the pain stop make it stop" -- I had some unpleasant body issues).

Anyway it's just another way of looking at things that can be helpful. It can be kind of overwhelming to stand over this endless forest of possibilities sometimes. Sometimes it's easier to just sit down under the shade of a likely looking tree and write up lists of what you think you'd like to do with yourself and how you can feel happier. Like worrying less about what dressing as a conservative dude means, and more about whether it's making you feel uncomfortable or not.

Hope that was of some kind of use. ;)

@Sarah7: That totally makes sense and I guess I wish a lot of people approached gender that way. A lot of the rhetoric seems to be focused around finding your identity and then that'll determine how you want to live... which isn't necessarily true for everyone. I personally developed my idea of "how do I want to live" and "who am I" completely separate from one another. And they don't exactly line up to a cohesive structure, I guess.

So following this, JS, I would say that I agree and that finding out your comfort level- how you want to live and what may make it possible for you to live most comfortably- and then exploring why you may feel that way will help parse things out for you. If you're comfortable both ways, that says something. If you're comfortable one way more than another, that may say something. I think once you explore eventually things just start to come together and make sense in your head, though it may take a while.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 17, 2014, 11:27:13 PM

I have very little on the inside in terms of understanding any kind of gender-based identity, so my approach focused mostly on "what can I do to make my life more comfortable" (or more literally, "oh god make the pain stop make it stop" -- I had some unpleasant body issues).

I sort of see where you're coming from. But why would a conflict arise, such as unpleasant body issues, if you didn't have a "gender-based identity" already going on in your head?

Quote from: JS on January 17, 2014, 10:43:13 PM
Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone taking your approach before now. What do you mean when you say that you're not concerned with how you feel on the inside? And even if your internal male narrative is unimportant, why did you decide to run with, correct me if I'm wrong, a superficial female exterior?

I need to be a woman. Period. There is no reason attached to it. The piece of my brain that insists I be a woman does not answer questions, does not provide reasons, and does not carry on discussion.

It does, however, send me a powerful jolt of euphoria whenever I see femaleness in myself.

Whenever I see myself wearing a skirt and stockings, whenever I see some part of myself that used to be hairy now sleek and soft, whenever I behold the amazing female name I pick out for myself, whenever I hear someone call me "she" or "her", whenever another female smiles at me and treats me warmly simply because I'm a member of her gender, my heart lifts in ways that are impossible to do justice with words.

As for not being concerned with how I feel inside, well I spent many months trying to figure out what I was, thinking I couldn't be MtF when I didn't "feel like a woman." I was cured of that both by meeting a lot of MtFs who told me that they too, had never really felt like women inside, and by my gender therapist who talks about how varied the transgender experience is. According to her, I'm no less trans because I "want to be a woman" than if I knew I was.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 18, 2014, 04:57:47 AM
I need to be a woman. Period. There is no reason attached to it. The piece of my brain that insists I be a woman does not answer questions, does not provide reasons, and does not carry on discussion.

It does, however, send me a powerful jolt of euphoria whenever I see femaleness in myself.

Whenever I see myself wearing a skirt and stockings, whenever I see some part of myself that used to be hairy now sleek and soft, whenever I behold the amazing female name I pick out for myself, whenever I hear someone call me "she" or "her", whenever another female smiles at me and treats me warmly simply because I'm a member of her gender, my heart lifts in ways that are impossible to do justice with words.

Thank you for posting this.

I'm in the throes of trying to work out what I should do with myself and my remaining years.  Some days I'm almost convinced that I'm (M2F) trans and just don't know it (yet?)  Other days I think I'm just being a drama queen.  (That's why I have put my gender down as "?".)

I also don't "feel like a woman" -- or a man, for that matter.  If I have any identity, it is as a techie, and maybe a musician (-wannabe) and social justice partisan.  But I do love skirts and dresses, especially the "feminine" kind, and wear them pretty much everywhere except at work.  I identify much more with female characters than with male in stories and movies, and I can only identify with male characters to the extent they don't act particularly masculine -- masculinity (=what most people think of as masculinity) repels me.  I've often wondered if I would have been happier if I'd been born female.

I can't say that I "need" to be a woman.

But for some reason, the idea that I might be a trans woman and/or could someday contentedly live as a woman and see myself as one, despite not feeling like I'm "really" a woman, feels like having the prison door opened a crack.

Quote from: JS on January 17, 2014, 11:57:11 PM
I sort of see where you're coming from. But why would a conflict arise, such as unpleasant body issues, if you didn't have a "gender-based identity" already going on in your head?

*Shrug* I honestly can't really answer that because I don't know. We don't have a ton of research available yet on trans people of any variety as yet. So I can't tell you how I exist, only that I do. The best I can offer are my imperfect attempts to describe my experience of that existence.

I transitioned because my body was wrong. Wrong enough that it made living a pretty unpleasant experience. I had a very clear sense of what my flesh should be like, and that wasn't it. I don't know if you've experienced what we talk about as "body dysphoria" on these forums. It's pretty hard to explain otherwise. Mostly it just really sucks.

As to the gender identity part? I don't have one. Um... Jamie asked about it recently if you want to read that here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157045.msg1331074.html#msg1331074

You stick around the androgyne forest long enough, and you'll find that there are all kinds of creatures who have very differing experiences of gender and identity, of their bodies and their minds. And that not everything always matches up so well.

I am legally female. I am perceived as female. I dress androgynous to masculine. I've never worn a skirt or anything like... the idea makes my skin crawl. I have a girlfriend. I wear "she/her" a little uneasily, and despise "lady/miss/ma'am/etc." . . . but I hate "sir/mister/he/him" even more. Ignoring that I was assigned male at birth, I fit fairly easily into the category of masculine-of-center queer females who have a bit of an uncomfortable relationship with gender and gender roles.

Does that help?

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2014, 06:45:34 PM
*Shrug* I honestly can't really answer that because I don't know. We don't have a ton of research available yet on trans people of any variety as yet. So I can't tell you how I exist, only that I do. The best I can offer are my imperfect attempts to describe my experience of that existence.

The lack of research is not just confined to trans* people. There's really very little understanding or agreement about even the most general concepts of consciousness and the "self". In this respect, I think the trans* "community" has some very unfair expectations placed upon it with regard to the validation of gender identity.

QuoteI don't know if you've experienced what we talk about as "body dysphoria" on these forums. It's pretty hard to explain otherwise

Yes, I think I know what you mean. My psychiatrist certainly seemed to think I was suffering from dysphoria. I say I think I know, because I really don't trust everything that my brain summons up into conscious thought. I know a lot of people don't care and just go with the flow, but it may be important where these thoughts of wanting to be or, in some cases, claiming to be a gender incongruent to your biological sex come from. Whatever the case, I'm the sort of person who likes to know these things and not just with respect to gender, but other areas of consciousness and identity.

QuoteAs to the gender identity part? I don't have one. Um... Jamie asked about it recently if you want to read that here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157045.msg1331074.html#msg1331074

"You know that thing inside you that tells you whether you are a dude or lady or something else? I don't have it."

To be honest, I would be hard pressed to explain my gender to anyone. And outside of crudely constructed stereotypes, I imagine that a lot of other people would be faced with similar difficulty. It seems to me that gender identity is a case of, "compared to what?" That is, it's a comparative state. But just because I cannot articulate my gender identity doesn't necessarily discount the possibility that gender has various biological markers. Who knows, you may very well be right when you say that you suspect gender doesn't really exist in any meaningful way. But I'd still like to know one way or the other.

QuoteI am legally female. I am perceived as female. I dress androgynous to masculine. I've never worn a skirt or anything like... the idea makes my skin crawl. I have a girlfriend. I wear "she/her" a little uneasily, and despise "lady/miss/ma'am/etc." . . . but I hate "sir/mister/he/him" even more. Ignoring that I was assigned male at birth, I fit fairly easily into the category of masculine-of-center queer females who have a bit of an uncomfortable relationship with gender and gender roles.

Does that help?

lol... yeah, I guess. I think I can see myself in there somewhere.

Quote from: JS on January 18, 2014, 08:21:45 PM
It seems to me that gender identity is a case of, "compared to what?"

*Truth

Personally, as gender labels relate to myself, I don't think a single label can tell another person who I am.  Most certainly my sex as male does not at all describe my gender.  It's only accurate to define my sex.

I am bigger than the meaning, or box, any label can describe.  The label is only a starting point, or invitation, to who or what I am as a person.  It's up to another person, or friend, to get to know the real me inside.  Even now I'm still trying to understand all sides myself and why I do what I do.  But it is a worth while journey I must continue to take the rest of my life.

My gender label is "Two-Spirited", which is not an accurate label for who I am in my mind.  But after many years of research, and self discovery, it's one label I picked that seems to fit.  It's a fairly broad term, in some circles from my understanding, like transgender is now an umbrella term.  But for me it's acknowledging all parts of myself.

When I go out into the world, with my male body, I don't have a label over my head saying "Two-Spirited."  And for me that's why I dress the way I do, why in my mind I need to to feel like me.  If I dress like a stereo typical male I feel fake, like an actor who's playing a role.  It's not the real me.  I'm suppressing a part of myself and that's not healthy in the long run.

So for me wearing a mixture of masculine and feminine clothing everyday helps me feel like myself as a "Two-Spirited" person.  And I'm learning from history that persons like myself have always been around, sometimes to help males and females better relate to each other.  Just because I'm different does not mean I need to be changed to fit with societies expectations, societies idea of normality.  The only exceptions or fears I need to worry about are my own.

Recently Facebook opened up it's sex category into a gender identity category.
Facebook, the slowest to catch on to anything social, has over 50 labels?
Kinda tells you something right there.
I honestly tried Pumpkin. Just because. Absurdity is fun...
When you think of yourself, is your gender identity the first thing?
When you see people, meet people, cross paths, read things they wrote, is their gender identity the first thing you think of?
Not really, you take in the context and then gender becomes a part of it.
Usually not that big a part of it. It can, but usually doesn't.
The problem with labels and descriptions is that they are always going to be changing and interpreted in different ways to different people.
It's a losing battle to try and define yourself with them.
You can get in the ballpark and that's it.
Where are you exactly? From who's perspective?
That depends on where the other people are who see you.
Sure you can define it as that area over there, but anyone's description is going to sound and be different depending on them.
You want it narrowed down for just yourself?
It's an exercise in futility.
The definitions change and exactly what those definitions mean are going to change.
You will change them yourself.
You can keep narrowing down the make, model, color and goodies you are, but then there's next years model....
Ballpark it and let it go.

I use non-binary, it's close enough, I know myself, and it doesn't come from a description and especially a label.
Even though I do use non-binary, it's only because it works in some conversations. It has no real other use.
Be descriptive, not a description. Use labels for what they are, a general idea, a shorthand for descriptive, not description.
There is a difference. Descriptive is a part of your characteristics.
You don't pick apart the definitions of your characteristics, do you? They're descriptive.
I would hope that my different characteristics are far more important than my gender is.
And they are. Gender takes a backseat to so many things about ones self.
My identity is self, and that takes in everything including my gender.
Gender is a small part of a persons identity.
Your different characteristics are far more important.
And the strengths of each one.
Society tries to make gender identity larger than it is. Don't fall into their insecurities.
And they are insecure about peoples gender, especially if it isn't their idea of what it is.
This even happens around here at times.
But it isn't a part of their normal conversations and reality. Nor is it yours.
When society figured out, actually just talked about, different genders, they put the burden of proof on you.
In other words, they made their problem, yours. It's not yours, it's still their problem.
I understand the need to self identify, but you really run the risk of wasting a lot of time and anxiety over just what it is.
Stop worrying about it.
Be yourself.
Your gender will become self apparent.
It doesn't come with a label or description, it is a part of self.

When I read what all of you write, and I do, what comes across are your characteristics, not your specific gender identity.
Sure it's a part of what this forum can be about, but it isn't the first thing in defining you.
I really like the different characteristics, the diversity of the people here.
I suspect we have more than the general population out there, but hey, that's just perspective.
When I see your name, your avatar, I don't think of your gender identity, I think about you.
All the things I read and hear about. Gender identity is just a small part of it.
Ativan

Fascinating.

I live comfortably both ways but the core is a transwoman.  I don't like labels too much.  To me the key is not self decieving.

And I finally like what I see in the mirror.  What is inside matters much more to me than my presentation.  Its all about how I feel and how honest I can be with myself and with loved ones.

I have the physical dysphoria.  Thank God for hormones. Now I have fun and peace.