Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is a topic stuffed full with questions - sorry about that, I just couldn't find any information about this anywhere else.

Is it normal, or not uncommon, for a transsexual to begin development before they even touch hormones? Because I've been noticing a little bit of fat redistribution and minor breast growth (meaning, I'm still flatchested, but my chest is soft and well, I won't go into it, but more decidedly feminine). The changes are quite subtle, but I didn't think you could ... change without hormones. Would this simply be because I have a comparably high level of oestrogen (I'm still very much a primary transsexual)? If I took anti-androgens, could these changes increase even more?

I came out to my parents a while ago, but only recently told them I'll want to transition if this feeling doesn't go away in a couple of years. They're supportive, but don't want me to go through with it, but I think that I might be able to persuade them to allow me to take anti-androgens for the timebeing, so if doing so could encourage changes anyway (because of a lack of troublesome androgens), it would be a very good thing...

If you feel that you won't be making a decision for over a year, then getting anti-androgens to offset any more changes from testosterone in the mean time would probably be a good idea.  Once changes occur it can be hard to undo them.

As for changes before hormones, I did not really have anything like that occur with me, except changes in my skin, but that was due to the feminine body washes and lotions and stuff I started using.

I agree with Kat in that anti-androgens could be an option for now.

Breast development can happen in a male body on it's own, depending on different factors.

As far as I know, I don't know of changes happening before you have hormones just because you want it to happen. Although, there could be a possibility that it is a psychosomatic response.

It could also be Gynecomastia.

I think weight is a common factor, where a male can develop "moobs."  Hormonal balances can be a factor. And so can being intersexed or having Klinefelter's syndrome. It could be even related to food you're eating or a medication you're taking.

It's difficult to say why it is happening (I'm not a doctor, and I don't know you).

As for myself, I had breast development in my teens that didn't go away. I also don't have much of a brow, adam's apple, and other things (like my voice barely dropping like all of the other guys -- something that I was constantly made fun of and beaten up at school for). What does that mean? I don't know.

But, anyway, there could be a lot of things, and again I'm not an expert in this.

Since this may(when I really just started to accept the truth) I've noticed that I've lost a considerable amount of weight. I went from about 180lbs  to 167lbs (my weight hasn't been below 175lbs since I was about 15-16). I haven't changed my diet in any way and I didn't really exercise. I'm not sure what exactly is causing it, but the timing makes me wonder.

At puberty I developed some gynectomastia (mostly on the right side, but the left side seems to be catching up a little now), so I was always too embarrassed to take off my shirt. My butt sticks out kind of like a girls (I've been made fun of in the past for it), my Adam's apple and brow ridge are less pronounced than usual, and a few other small things. I wonder if my hormone levels are off, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

I've heard hypnosis can have an effect on hormone levels, in some ways accepting that your TS could have a similar effect. If the mind believes something, the body may follow.

If all goes well I plan on getting HRT in a few months, if my psychologist is qualified enough to write a recommendation. Otherwise I'm going to need to find a specialist/therapist.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 11, 2007, 01:20:10 AMAs far as I know, I don't know of changes happening before you have hormones just because you want it to happen.

I was suggesting that I have a high level of oestrogen, and therefore feel like a girl, and have physical changes.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 11, 2007, 01:20:10 AMI think weight is a common factor, where a male can develop "moobs."

I have very little body fat. I'm very thin, and the only places where I have any noticable fat are on my thighs, stomach, and chest. Other than that, I'm extremely thin - 6'2", 146lbs.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 11, 2007, 01:20:10 AMIt could also be Gynecomastia.

Well, by definition, Gynecomastia is the growth of breasts on (birth) males. May I also point out that I mentioned "a little bit of fat redistribution" - I have fat on my hips which I'm certain wasn't there before. So it isn't just Gynecomastia... I'm assuming it's a hormonal imbalance, possibly due to my GID, or from the same cause as my GID. What I'm really curious about, though, is whether I'd gain any more "changes" if I were to take anti-androgens.

Quote from: Marciel on July 11, 2007, 09:50:03 PMAt puberty I developed some gynectomastia (mostly on the right side, but the left side seems to be catching up a little now) so I was always too embarrassed to take off my shirt.

I did, too, when I was about 13 or 14. Nothing very noticable, but a few guys in the school changing rooms (ugh) pointed out that I had ... differently shaped nipples than they did.

Quote from: Marciel on July 11, 2007, 09:50:03 PMMy butt sticks out kind of like a girls

Mine does too. xP Apparently most boys can't "fill" girls' trousers, but I can.

Quote from: Hidari on July 09, 2007, 03:56:05 PM
This is a topic stuffed full with questions - sorry about that, I just couldn't find any information about this anywhere else.

Is it normal, or not uncommon, for a transsexual to begin development before they even touch hormones? Because I've been noticing a little bit of fat redistribution and minor breast growth (meaning, I'm still flatchested, but my chest is soft and well, I won't go into it, but more decidedly feminine). The changes are quite subtle, but I didn't think you could ... change without hormones. Would this simply be because I have a comparably high level of oestrogen (I'm still very much a primary transsexual)? If I took anti-androgens, could these changes increase even more?

I came out to my parents a while ago, but only recently told them I'll want to transition if this feeling doesn't go away in a couple of years. They're supportive, but don't want me to go through with it, but I think that I might be able to persuade them to allow me to take anti-androgens for the timebeing, so if doing so could encourage changes anyway (because of a lack of troublesome androgens), it would be a very good thing...

there wont have been changes, either you were like this already, or not, you would change sligtly when on AAs only as natural E would be higher, but not without ANY hrt.
Primary trans isnt really an issue here, when not on hrt, you wont develop unlesss you have some form of IS condition, and then it will be prevalent from birth or puberty
perchance, how old are you?

I'm in my late teens.

So, at my age, I believe non-HRT development is possible.

Well  ive never heard of this happening befor but i oftern wonder this myself. As i have losed weight my breasts n hips seem to have grown n my weist shrunk. Im not on hrt and all seems alittle coincedental.

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 07:40:47 AM
I'm in my late teens.

So, at my age, I believe non-HRT development is possible.

no, its really not... not just by willing it to happen, and 'knowing about your gid' Trust me, i willed it  enough,, without an IS condition, you wont develop anything without hrt, and especially not randomly in your late teens... you will FASTER when you start hrt, but not before, seriously honey.

Lucy, sometimes its just us really wanting to see what we wish was there...

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 09:32:44 AMnot just by willing it to happen, and 'knowing about your gid'

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 06:59:32 AMI was suggesting that I have a high level of oestrogen, and therefore feel like a girl, and have physical changes.

So I mean the reason why I feel like a girl could be the same reason as small developments.
Now, I'm not the whole way through puberty yet, which makes changes possible. The fact that small changes have happened, as I wrote in my first post, is a sure sign that something has changed. Now, my body is feminine - a small waist, wider hips than usual, etc.
I mean, there is the possibility that gaining weight (which I think I may have) has increased fat on my chest and hips (and nowhere else). I don't know if that's possible without changes, though, so naturally I'm at a loss.

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 07:19:40 AM
Primary trans isnt really an issue here, when not on hrt, you wont develop unlesss you have some form of IS condition, and then it will be prevalent from birth or puberty

Yes, an IS condition or an elevated estrogen level for a genetic male.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 11, 2007, 01:20:10 AM
As for myself, I had breast development in my teens that didn't go away. I also don't have much of a brow, adam's apple, and other things (like my voice barely dropping like all of the other guys -- something that I was constantly made fun of and beaten up at school for). What does that mean? I don't know.

Wow, I was exactly the same way, I thought I was the only one like this. Do you have thin wrists and small earlobes too and did you sometimes sound like a woman when you weren't trying?

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 09:51:46 AM

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 09:32:44 AMnot just by willing it to happen, and 'knowing about your gid'

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 06:59:32 AMI was suggesting that I have a high level of oestrogen, and therefore feel like a girl, and have physical changes.

So I mean the reason why I feel like a girl could be the same reason as small developments.
Now, I'm not the whole way through puberty yet, which makes changes possible. The fact that small changes have happened, as I wrote in my first post, is a sure sign that something has changed. Now, my body is feminine - a small waist, wider hips than usual, etc.
I mean, there is the possibility that gaining weight (which I think I may have) has increased fat on my chest and hips (and nowhere else). I don't know if that's possible without changes, though, so naturally I'm at a loss.

In about two months time my waist dropped from 34 to 30in, along with the 13lbs I lost. My hips are 38in, but I never thought to measure them in the past, so I don't know if they got any bigger. So I have a waist to hip ratio of about 79%, which isn't really typical of a male.

My frame is also on the smaller side for a male, but I always thought that was just from being born premature.

~Marciel

I grew up with a fleshy chest/small breasts. Small enough to stand out but not big enough to be at the receiving end of many beatings. Skins v shirts? Once I hit puberty I never really took my shirt off in public again. AFAIK, I am not IS.

There are a number of reasons why things may be happening and they range from disruption to the endocrine system due to environmental factors, to IS conditions, and on and on. If you are experiencing changes then it would be smart to measure and track and also see a doctor as they could be symptoms of a new or existing problem.

then again, it could be you wishing changes could happen, and psycosematic changes occuring in your eyes.

Oh Rachael, were you born pessimistic?

Quote from: Hidari on July 09, 2007, 03:56:05 PM
This is a topic stuffed full with questions - sorry about that, I just couldn't find any information about this anywhere else.

Is it normal, or not uncommon, for a transsexual to begin development before they even touch hormones? Because I've been noticing a little bit of fat redistribution and minor breast growth (meaning, I'm still flatchested, but my chest is soft and well, I won't go into it, but more decidedly feminine). The changes are quite subtle, but I didn't think you could ... change without hormones. Would this simply be because I have a comparably high level of oestrogen (I'm still very much a primary transsexual)? If I took anti-androgens, could these changes increase even more?

I came out to my parents a while ago, but only recently told them I'll want to transition if this feeling doesn't go away in a couple of years. They're supportive, but don't want me to go through with it, but I think that I might be able to persuade them to allow me to take anti-androgens for the timebeing, so if doing so could encourage changes anyway (because of a lack of troublesome androgens), it would be a very good thing...

Seeing These changes without hormones and being Transsexual might be a coincidence or they might be both caused by the same thing, whatever that is. Maybe transexuality isn't just confined to the brain but manifests itself in other parts of the body.

Quote from: Hidari on July 13, 2007, 01:44:40 PM
Oh Rachael, were you born pessimistic?

No, just realistic
also, i happen to be a scientist, and know what is possible and what is not. we have discussed what might cause this. simply realising your a girl, and wanting to change, sadly, does nothing

Quote from: Jonie on July 12, 2007, 01:31:19 PM

Quote from: gothique11 on July 11, 2007, 01:20:10 AM
As for myself, I had breast development in my teens that didn't go away. I also don't have much of a brow, adam's apple, and other things (like my voice barely dropping like all of the other guys -- something that I was constantly made fun of and beaten up at school for). What does that mean? I don't know.

Wow, I was exactly the same way, I thought I was the only one like this. Do you have thin wrists and small earlobes too and did you sometimes sound like a woman when you weren't trying?

I have thin wrists, small ears, and sounded like a girl for a long time. Although, because I smoke, my voice has actually dropped a bit. You can year my voice and see what I look like in my vlog (link is in my profile, I believe).

I haven't taken voice therapy yet, although I am going in September sometime. When I talked to them, I confused them a bit because they weren't sure what I was trying to do, and so, they may or may not be able to do anything for me. I thought I'd give it a shot, anyway. I guess they take pictures of your vocal cords and look at your voice at a spectrograph and then teach you stuff.

I don't think that my pitch is very high, especially with smoking, however, the way I speak and say things is more feminine. So, *shurgs* I don't know.

ja same... my voice is naturaly female atm, done no work, but this is post hrt...

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 11:21:21 AM

Quote from: Hidari on July 13, 2007, 01:44:40 PM
Oh Rachael, were you born pessimistic?

No, just realistic
also, i happen to be a scientist, and know what is possible and what is not. we have discussed what might cause this. simply realising your a girl, and wanting to change, sadly, does nothing

The ways in which the brain can affect the body (and the body the brain) are not well understood.  We know just enough to know that we don't know enough.  The fact that the placebo effect even exists should at least give you some doubt.

Also, I would say that good scientists should never be dogmatic.

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 11:21:21 AM

Quote from: Hidari on July 13, 2007, 01:44:40 PM
Oh Rachael, were you born pessimistic?

No, just realistic
also, i happen to be a scientist, and know what is possible and what is not. we have discussed what might cause this. simply realising your a girl, and wanting to change, sadly, does nothing

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 09:51:46 AM

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 09:32:44 AMnot just by willing it to happen, and 'knowing about your gid'

Quote from: Hidari on July 12, 2007, 06:59:32 AMI was suggesting that I have a high level of oestrogen, and therefore feel like a girl, and have physical changes.

So I mean the reason why I feel like a girl could be the same reason as small developments.
Now, I'm not the whole way through puberty yet, which makes changes possible. The fact that small changes have happened, as I wrote in my first post, is a sure sign that something has changed. Now, my body is feminine - a small waist, wider hips than usual, etc.
I mean, there is the possibility that gaining weight (which I think I may have) has increased fat on my chest and hips (and nowhere else). I don't know if that's possible without changes, though, so naturally I'm at a loss.

Having to repeatedly quote this is becoming tiresome. Can you read what I wrote before replying? I am not saying that knowing that I have GID has caused development. I am saying that GID may be caused by the same thing that is causing development. Does that make sense? I can probably simplify it a bit more for you if you want.

Cause A (oestrogen) --> Effect A (GID) & Effect B (development)

Understand? Because, honestly, if you're a scientist, you should at least attempt to understand what I'm saying before commenting on it.

Anyway, I've lost interest in this.
Comment if you want to anyway.

so your saying you  might be IS?


and running off when your loosing aint a good way to discuss...

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 11:21:21 AM

Quote from: Hidari on July 13, 2007, 01:44:40 PM
Oh Rachael, were you born pessimistic?

No, just realistic
also, i happen to be a scientist, and know what is possible and what is not. we have discussed what might cause this. simply realising your a girl, and wanting to change, sadly, does nothing

Wow. No. That something is beyond your experience and your theoretical grasp does not equal something that can't happen. The mind can do wonders. There are in fact scientific, sound techniques that might be too esoteric to go into here, but I can assure you I have seen measurable physical changes, that include healing trauma (that do not come out of standard AMA practices, or be necessarily described in the texts you might be versed in), that stem from these practices and their acceleration of the body's amazing natural potential for growth.

Quote from: Rachael on July 19, 2007, 05:03:07 PM
so your saying you  might be IS?


and running off when your loosing aint a good way to discuss...

So who is it that it is that you think may be running away?

Some times its easier to think that you might be IS just to awnser WHY. But it is very unlikley that we are, surley you would have known and noticed the differences by now.

blar blar blar....

well there is a by percentage higher number of IS people within the Trans community as it CAN lead to dysphoric feelings regarding ones physical gender. Intersex is a more broad category than we allow for. as there are 52 genes that together make up a persons sex, and no one person is entirely male or female, its what makes us different. If we fight to suggest that being TS ISNT a mental illness, and claim its medical, surely if its medical it must be in some way physical, and thus an is related condition? anyway enough blabbering

and none of the above: dont tell me no, the body doesnt magically grow a third arm because it really wants to.... there are things we dont know, but magically swapping gender isnt one of them...