Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been seeing this topic come up every so often, so I thought I'd address it:

Now most people when they see us in the early stages of transition will think
that we're a little 'wierd' or against the norm, just because we're dressed in women's clothing'.

I think we have little effect on changing the preception of people who
knew us before we transitioned.  It is not hard to see why so many
of us go stealth.

But even by going stealth we can still run into a lot of people who knew us before. But, for those who don't know, especially the strangers who see us as a woman for the first time.  That is what I call "passing", which is the first thing we want to do.

There are some who have known us as a women for a long time.  Some know about us, some suspect, and some have heard rumors.  Yet, we are recognized as women.  That is what I call "acceptance" .

So, you can see by my definition of "acceptance" that, by living stealth, I am not living a secret life as a woman.  But, the fact that I am accepted indicates to me that those who know me are looking beyond the fact that I was not born female, but, in their eyes, I am a woman, now.

If I continually talked about being a transsexual and in transition, probably many (maybe most) of the ones who accept me would stop doing so.  But, I don't talk about it, do not parade about it, and I am not an activist.  Therefore, in society, I am a woman.


Gina  :icon_dance:

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 05:00:55 PM
But even by going stealth we can still run into a lot of people who knew us before.

Interesting that you mention that.  I just ran into somebody last night that I used to know and I never told I transitioned.  It was in a situation where I am being stealth.  I even talked to him for a bit and he didn't seem to recognize me at all, so now *that* is passing.  I just hope our backgrounds don't cross paths.

ive met so many peps i used to know, whove not seen me for a year, and they look into my eyes, and cant see me...

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2007, 06:14:23 PM
I just ran into somebody last night that I used to know and I never told I transitioned. 

Very good point there Melissa. It's just like I said that as long as you don't go and tell everyone, they'll be more acceptive to how you are now.

As I'm sure you've heard Rachael, the eyes are the window to the soul, but sometimes they will look at your phsyical being first and then they accept who you are.

Gina  :icon_dance:

Gina, I think you explained it all. I really don't think there ever will be complete stealth, but you can walk around town and go to your job and no one will ever think you were someone else in a previous life. I know that if there were a background check on you, that it will come out that you are trans. You can't completely hide the fact that you are trans. In the everyday world, it is possible and even if you stayed in the same town. I have not been an out and about activist for about year and half and people view me as female. Most of the people who knew me before now have accepted me, I said most not all. There are some who didn't even know I transitioned. There was one day, not long ago, that I was in line at the Fred Meyer Pharmacy waiting to pick up my hormones. Well most of the girls behind the counter know as I have known them for years, I worked for Fred Meyer for 22 years. I was a manager for them. Well, this man came up behind me and accidently bumped me, well I had him as my assistant for about 5 years and have known this man for about 20 years. I turned around and he said excuse me maam, I just tripped on the pole in the line. I just looked around and said oh that is all right and I almost called him by name. He didn't say a word or even stared at me. My other co worker who knows and talks to this guy all the time said he doesn't know and that he never mentioned running into me at the store. He would have said something. He is a big gossip.
Sheila

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 05:00:55 PM


But even by going stealth we can still run into a lot of people who knew us before.

Not if you have gone into deep stealth and have developed a new circle of friends, co-workers, acquaintances, etc.  I'm sure that someone will jump on here and say "well, there's always the chance that someone might anyway"....True, chances exist for everything.  There's always a chance that we may die in a plane crash, win the lottery, die in our sleep, but what are the odds?  The same thing with deep stealth.
My two cents.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 06:38:49 PM

As I'm sure you've heard Rachael, the eyes are the window to the soul, but sometimes they will look at your phsyical being first and then tehy accept who you are.

Gina  :icon_dance:[/color]

oh true, but trust me, it was entirely physical
they knew this person: http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/Belladonna_06/evilolddude.jpg in september last year
and you can see my avitar from today :)
Tink: yeah, Whatifs can dominate our lives if we let them, if we dont act like we know someone,thier unlikely to remember in most cases,a nd in deep stealth, its insanely unlikely.

Quote from: Rachael on July 10, 2007, 06:57:01 PM

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 06:38:49 PM

As I'm sure you've heard Rachael, the eyes are the window to the soul, but sometimes they will look at your phsyical being first and then tehy accept who you are.

Gina  :icon_dance:[/color]

oh true, but trust me, it was entirely physical
they knew this person: http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/Belladonna_06/evilolddude.jpg in september last year
and you can see my avitar from today :)
Tink: yeah, Whatifs can dominate our lives if we let them, if we dont act like we know someone,thier unlikely to remember in most cases,a nd in deep stealth, its insanely unlikely.

..and that was going to be my next point, Rachael.  How could they relate my evil twin with me now?  I look NOTHING  like him.  We are two different people indeed.

tink :icon_chick:

yeah, i sorta see the past as a brother now, someone thats meant a lot to me growing up, but isnt around anymore :)

yeah, and most of time time i dont even look related to myself, how effed up is that?

From the front, I have distinct features; cheekbones are right under my eyes, slit, asian like eyes eyes. They're still recognizeable somehow even though they've been opened up by my by brow-bossing surgery. From profile, its imposible to recognize me at all due to the surgeries and hormones even if you knew what to look for; For fun, I often put myself in profile to people who've known me for a long time, and they can't ever spot me.

Front view, not best photos, but similar angles and distance.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2Fsmallfront3.jpg&hash=364568c75bfddaf00cbe91c767da00326503cbfc)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_4173a.jpg&hash=cb5af2a62151f75d3c778b3651d57ddb335db2f2)

Still even from the front, if someone doesn't know that I'm there, I could pass right by them and they wouldn't know. A guy I worked with for 3 years had to meet me, he knew where I would be sitting, a hotel lobby, still he went around the place for a few minutes, sat down right in front of me and then I waved... He said I had changed... He didn't know I had transitioned, he was very cool about it and had him visit the city with his family.

That's truly amazing Keira and there is a lot of difference in the facial image after hormones ....I don't have a before or after as I've looked much the same since I was about 13 but I'll have a look and see if I can find anything...

By the way what is 'brow-bossing surgery'?

Stealth... always a matter of good debate.

I have always maintained that stealth will always be a matter of personal choice and of course the ability to pass and blend into society. It is also a function of finances, FFS is not cheap and not everyone can or will have access to this type of surgery.

I also believe that if you cannot pass, or wish just to be accepted in society (as a known Transsexual person) that is also a matter of personal choice (or dictated by society / circumstances)

I transitioned, lived, worked in the Community I had been in for 18 years. I had family and friends there. 99.9% of the people saw and viewed me as a woman, the small minority that didn't where some of my friends, friends of friends and my family.

I was always unhappier around people who knew my past, it worried me, it puzzled me, it intrigued me, as I always wondered if they genuinely saw me as a woman, where humouring me, just being polite (or obeying the discrimination laws in the UK). At this stage I guess I was partly in stealth as I passed and only a few people knew.

Over this period, I obviously changed all my documentations, underwent physical changes... I to met and had conversations with people, that I knew prior to transition, but they had no idea who I was.

After SRS, I got the opportunity to live and work outside of the UK. I could fully leave my TS past behind, I changed my birth certificate etc and started a new life abroad ... Deep Stealth. I live, work, play, socialize without anyone knowing my past history. Only my Doctor knows of my past, but that to me is a necessity as I would not want to hide anything from the medical profession.

If I did not pass, If I did not have the opportunities I had, I may have had no option to live a life where I am  commonly seen only as a "known Transsexual" rather than a woman.

I have a friend who helped me through transition and remember her words well, "Passing and stealth is about the strangers you meet in public seeing you as nothing less that 100% Female as you go about your daily life, family and friends are not the issue, they know and hopefully they will accept"

So thats my take on Stealth and Deep Stealth.

Berleigh... Brow Bossing is the removal of the pronounced ridge of bone that most males have above their brow area (think Neanderthal). You need to see a Male and Female skull side by side to see the normal differences in bone structure. I had both forehead reconstruction and brow bossing removal as part of my FFS.

There is a good description in the link below.

http://www.drdouglasousterhout.com/ (http://www.drdouglasousterhout.com/)

Buffy

Quote from: Buffy on July 11, 2007, 03:39:14 AM
Stealth... always a matter of good debate.

I have always maintained that stealth will always be a matter of personal choice and of course the ability to pass and blend into society. It is also a function of finances, FFS is not cheap and not everyone can or will have access to this type of surgery.

Very good thoughts here Buffy. I've always tried to be passable and just blend into society instead of being like a drag queen that I feel will always try to stand out. Very interesting point about FFS. Fortunaetly I was born with a fairly good face, and I believe that I won't need if any work at all.

I also believe that if you cannot pass, or wish just to be accepted in society (as a known Transsexual person) that is also a matter of personal choice (or dictated by society / circumstances)

Another good thought here. Unfortunately some just want to live their lives and be known as a transsexual person instead of being able to be the person that they want to be.

I was always unhappier around people who knew my past, it worried me, it puzzled me, it intrigued me, as I always wondered if they genuinely saw me as a woman, where humouring me, just being polite (or obeying the discrimination laws in the UK). At this stage I guess I was partly in stealth as I passed and only a few people knew.

This is quite natural. Sometimes you don't know what they'll say, since they know of your past life. Whenever I'm out, I take on the role 100%. Like the other day, I was stopped at a shopping mall, and the lady asked me my name, and I naturally told her it was Gina. :icon_lol:

If I did not pass, If I did not have the opportunities I had, I may have had no option to live a life where I am  commonly seen only as a "known Transsexual" rather than a woman.

I'm really glad that you've had such good luck with your transitioning. But it all boils down to how we take it all in.  

I have a friend who helped me through transition and remember her words well, "Passing and stealth is about the strangers you meet in public seeing you as nothing less that 100% Female as you go about your daily life, family and friends are not the issue, they know and hopefully they will accept"

Very good words from your friend, and I will remember them like a prayer.

Berleigh... Brow Bossing is the removal of the pronounced ridge of bone that most males have above their brow area (think Neanderthal). You need to see a Male and Female skull side by side to see the normal differences in bone structure. I had both forehead reconstruction and brow bossing removal as part of my FFS.

Like I said previously, I have a fairly small nose and I've never had that pronounced ridge of bone above my brow.  :icon_rockon:

Gina  :icon_dance:
Buffy

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2007, 06:14:23 PM
I just ran into somebody last night that I used to know and I never told I transitioned.  It was in a situation where I am being stealth.  I even talked to him for a bit and he didn't seem to recognize me at all, so now *that* is passing.  I just hope our backgrounds don't cross paths.

Now with me on the other hand, I don't really look all that different from what I did before.  So people do recognize me, and I get situations like happened this spring.  I was standing waiting for a bus, and suddenly realised someone was addressing me by my old name.  They practically had to wave in my face to get me to notice because I'm so not used to hearing it.

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 05:00:55 PM
If I continually talked about being a transsexual and in transition, probably many (maybe most) of the ones who accept me would stop doing so.  But, I don't talk about it, do not parade about it, and I am not an activist.  Therefore, in society, I am a woman.

I agree with this view. The problem, however, exists for older transwoman (>50?) who have a past and want it with them as part of their life. While you don't have to make it clear you were different, there are times, an explanation is necessary. But it's as you said, if you are a woman now, the rest is just that, your past.

--Susan--

Quote from: Tink on July 10, 2007, 06:54:44 PM

Not if you have gone into deep stealth and have developed a new circle of friends, co-workers, acquaintances, etc.  I'm sure that someone will jump on here and say "well, there's always the chance that someone might anyway"....

tink :icon_chick:

It won't be me that says it,Tink.  I know a lady in such deep stealth, she doesn't even remember it herself, she's been stealth so long.
She got her meds, got divorced, left the state, got her grs, and got a new voice.  She looks like a million bucks, and sounds like it too.

Luv your new avitar, Tink!

Bev

Quote from: SusanK on July 11, 2007, 09:37:28 PM

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 05:00:55 PM
If I continually talked about being a transsexual and in transition, probably many (maybe most) of the ones who accept me would stop doing so.  But, I don't talk about it, do not parade about it, and I am not an activist.  Therefore, in society, I am a woman.

I agree with this view. The problem, however, exists for older transwoman (>50?) who have a past and want it with them as part of their life. While you don't have to make it clear you were different, there are times, an explanation is necessary. But it's as you said, if you are a woman now, the rest is just that, your past.

--Susan--

what does keeping your circle of friends have to do with shutting up about being a ->-bleeped-<-? One can keep those who love you near, yet not talk about this, but slightly off topic, as this is about stealth.

tell you what, Voice really is key to stealth. a slight physical non perfection can be corrected by sounding amazingly non male that nobody would imagine it possible ^_^

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 04:01:07 AM
I tell you what, Voice really is key to stealth. a slight physical non perfection can be corrected by sounding amazingly non male that nobody would imagine it possible ^_^

I agree Rachael. My voice is my key. It's a gift and I'm lucky to have a voice that is well within the female range. It clarifies my gender everytime and I'm able to be naturally stealth.   

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2007, 06:14:23 PM

Quote from: gina_taylor on July 10, 2007, 05:00:55 PM
But even by going stealth we can still run into a lot of people who knew us before.

Interesting that you mention that.  I just ran into somebody last night that I used to know and I never told I transitioned.  It was in a situation where I am being stealth.  I even talked to him for a bit and he didn't seem to recognize me at all, so now *that* is passing.  I just hope our backgrounds don't cross paths.

That happened to me a couple times before FFS, I can only chalk it up to the fact that most people are not very observant. My own HR manager who was off on extended leave didn't recognize me when she ran into me at Target.

Another weird thing is that I was never clocked in the Deep South when I was just six months fulltime and pre-FFS. I guess they are used to large women. So if I want to go deep stealth, I could move to Mississippi. Not!

My Life Span professor gave me this textbook by Dr. Hilary M. Lips on the psychology of women.  There is a wonderful quote in it that really applies to the way we have been sucked in by society's stereotypes. 

"[Women] are often stereotyped in ways that imply incompetence, trained from girlhood to accept subservient roles, taught that their worth depends on such qualities as beauty and fertility, and victimized by discrimination in the realm of employment."

So much of our obsession is with beauty and fertility!  We continually beat ourselves up for not being able to give birth, and spend huge amounts of money and emotional energy trying to look like models.  Maybe somebody else is controlling our minds.

Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 13, 2007, 11:14:39 AM
My Life Span professor gave me this textbook by Dr. Hilary M. Lips on the psychology of women.  There is a wonderful quote in it that really applies to the way we have been sucked in by society's stereotypes. 

"[Women] are often stereotyped in ways that imply incompetence, trained from girlhood to accept subservient roles, taught that their worth depends on such qualities as beauty and fertility, and victimized by discrimination in the realm of employment."

So much of our obsession is with beauty and fertility!  We continually beat ourselves up for not being able to give birth, and spend huge amounts of money and emotional energy trying to look like models.  Maybe somebody else is controlling our minds.

We should break those stereotypes, and as a feminist I'm all for supporting the empowerment of women everywhere, including transwomen.  One way to do that is to let people know that I'm not an incompetent woman.  My worth is so much more that my beauty and fertility (or lack thereof??). Not being able to give birth is something we'll never be able to change, so I don't focus on it.  Does it make me sad?  Of course, but I try not to let it get me down. 

As for looking like a model, I can only say that I'm an average woman.  After using Vaniqa for three months I still have a little bit of stubble that's somewhat noticeable during the day and my voice is still male (but I'm content with just softening it because I like my voice.  Changing it makes me feel fake - not myself - and there are many gg's with voices that fall below the female range, and they don't get questioned).  Looking like a model is not my goal - acceptance as a woman is, and I'm already obtaining that about 80% of the time.

Stealth isn't something I'm too worried about.  I'm comfortable with my past, but eventually (and sooner than I think) talking about my transition and ->-bleeped-<- will be pointless because people are already seeing me as a woman!  ;D

Quote from: Buffy on July 13, 2007, 01:15:06 PM
Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world  :-\

~Fae

Quote from: Fae on July 13, 2007, 03:42:49 PM

Quote from: Buffy on July 13, 2007, 01:15:06 PM
Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world  :-\

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.  I'm sure this sounds very anti-feminist, but so far I haven't been discriminated as a woman in the workplace.  But then most of the managers (not the execs) are women, so I feel like I'm in a good company.  Also, I haven't really had to work any harder than I did before transition and so that hasn't been a problem.  Perhaps I'm just lucky for now and I'll sing a different tune later.   :-\

Quote from: Melissa on July 13, 2007, 04:50:24 PM

Quote from: Fae on July 13, 2007, 03:42:49 PM

Quote from: Buffy on July 13, 2007, 01:15:06 PM
Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world  :-\

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.  I'm sure this sounds very anti-feminist, but so far I haven't been discriminated as a woman in the workplace.  But then most of the managers (not the execs) are women, so I feel like I'm in a good company.  Also, I haven't really had to work any harder than I did before transition and so that hasn't been a problem.  Perhaps I'm just lucky for now and I'll sing a different tune later.   :-\

*nods* uh...yeah.  Gender discrimination and that "glass ceiling" still exist in the workplace.  I'm happy your managers are women though  ;)

Quote from: regina on July 13, 2007, 05:11:20 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 13, 2007, 04:50:24 PM
Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.

Melissa, I hope you don't think this attitude makes you somehow "more" female? In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

You're fine with that? This is partly why feminists have issues with transwomen.

Gina M.

There are a lot of women who have fought hard, suffered and died to gain respect and rights similar to those of men, and of course in many countries of the world women are still suffering daily just for being women.

I'm not at all happy to live in a man's world and will keep fighting to try to obtain true eqality of opportunity for women and men.

I for one have experienced discrimination in the workplace and it is never a pleasant experience.

One clear example was 10 yrs ago, when I was working in a technical support team, logging calls and doing general admin work, but nothing technical. A position came up for someone to train as an engineer and I volunteered...  The response from the support manager was: "Ha ha, that's funny!  You'd certainly be much better looking than our other engineers and make the customer's happy, but you'd never be able to fix anything!"   (Of course all the engineers were men...)  That certainly reminded me I was in a man's world!

Well, I'm now the manager of a technical support team and am most certainly capable of fixing things...

MVER XXX

Mavie,

You live in france.
I've been there plenty of times,
I know a lot of french men and women who emigrated from there,
they all said the french culture is both mysoginist and classist.

If your a women who's not come from one of the top school, you
might as well put a cross on any high paying job!!!

That's what they said. Even men said that that what school you went
had most bearing on your future, no matter what you did after that
(of course, there are exceptions, but few and faw between).

So, for women in France, not so good.

Society in France is very static, that's part of the reason France's economy has so many problems, they are not using all their resources, men or women. If people don't have a possibility to move beyond their current status, there is no incentive for anything, thus stagnation.


Here, you wouldn't get that kind of answer MaVie, The Ecole Polytechnique here has 35% women (creeping up each year), while in France and the US, the numbers are a lot less.

Regina,

You did notice I was mostly talking from the french expat's point of view.

My sister's boyfriend of 5 years is french and I've been in close contact with hundreds of native frenchmen. There are 140000 french immigrants from France around Montreal. We're we've discussed these issues (class system and mysoginy) at length since they are a big reason why they left. All the women I've talked to said that they had it better here, ALL OF THEM from the lowly vendors to the university proffesors, they should know what they're talking about since they are the ones who lived in both places.

I doubt Sarcozy can change a thing, french culture needs an electroshock and everyone's loathe to administer it.

In general, the chance of career advancement for women in France is a lot worse than in the province of Quebec and the US, that's a pure fact.

OK, I was hoping I could avoid replying, but it looks like I've got no choice...

Yes, French society is undoubtedly more macho than the UK.  Generally men here don't just want to open doors for you, it's a definite need, an intrinsic part of their male identity; they need to do it to feel comfortable.  And women have a lot of pressure to look good and conform to female stereotypes (from posters, TV, magazines, etc...), much more so than I ever remember was the case back in England.  For example, here dieting is a national sport and a yearly ritual (the pressure starts in early spring in the media) and any Frenchwoman worth her salt makes at least a little effort to lose some centimetres from her waist before hitting the beach in the summer...

I have to admit that I found this very difficult to accept when I arrived in France, but what's funny is that as the years have gone on I've got quite used to it and have to admit (yes, I'm feeling v v v un-feminist here!!) that I actually quite like it a lot of the time.  When I go back to the UK to visit family and friends, I'm actually quite shocked.  The men seem weak and the women don't seem to be really liberated, but just more and more like ersatz men. 

When I say I can't accept that it's a man's world, I actually mean that I want a society where there is true equality of opportunity for woman at work and when buying products and services, but I definitely don't want equality of the sexes.  In my opinion men and women don't need to be the same to respect each other and work together.

OK and now's the moment that I have to say (sorry to break the illusion...) that the workplace incident I referred to in my earlier post actually happened when I was still in the UK.  I haven't actually experienced any open discrimination against me at work here in France, and in fact a couple of years ago I was promoted to run the technical support department, which is traditionally quite a male environnement here.

France is evolving rapidly.  There's more and more awareness of all minorities and I think the future here looks bright, although there may still be a few difficult years ahead in the very near future.

If I love living and working in France, it's precisely because I can work and have a life as well.  France isn't quite as obsessed with putting work before all else as the anglo-saxon cultures, and ok it means the country's a bit poorer, but people don't really seem less happy.  It's a different model to the UK and the US, with different priorities, and I for one hope it always stays unique.

And finally...

Quote from: regina on July 16, 2007, 06:36:28 PM
... and I hope she kicks some male butt.

bises,
Gina M.

... well I certainly do my best Gina !  ;)

gros bisous
MVER XXX

Quote from: regina on July 13, 2007, 05:11:20 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 13, 2007, 04:50:24 PM
Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.

Melissa, I hope you don't think this attitude makes you somehow "more" female? In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

You're fine with that? This is partly why feminists have issues with transwomen.

Gina M.

More female?  Huh?  No, that's just my view on it.  Just because I'm not at the front lines fighting for women's rights doesn't mean I don't want women to have equal rights.  All I was saying was that I would rather be a female without male privilege and subjected to the same things as GGs than to be forced to live as a male and keep that privilege.

havn't we floated off topic a wee bit? :-\

Quote from: regina on July 13, 2007, 05:11:20 PM
In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

Sad but true.

QuoteWe protest all the social and legal pressures that leave women and girls thinking that perfectly normal bodily processes are shameful, evil, pornographic, or topics to only be spoken of in embarrassed whispers and euphemisms to the school nurse.
We protest the laws and customs that have led women into such ignorance and confusion about how their own bodies work.
We protest the social taboos and governmental laws that have made it difficult for knowledgable women and mothers to talk to young girls about their growing bodies, and their lives.
We protest the censorship of women's political, scientific and artistic ideas.
We PROTEST, dammit. And we're doing something about it.

Kuddos to Regina!

Quote from: Rachael on July 17, 2007, 05:58:23 PM
havn't we floated off topic a wee bit? :-\

I will get us back on topic.

When I get back to my exercise routine at the woman's gym. I will be stealth in the locker room, sans attire.

Way kewl, eh?

hehe, ultimate stealth. look mummy! no wang! *s->-bleeped-<-s* >:D


i guess things like that help, but only if like you mel, the rest is stealt worthy too :)

Quote from: regina on July 17, 2007, 10:00:22 PM

But Buffy, why the comment, are you feeling valueless or unattractive or both? I'm sorry if that's so.

ciao,
Gina M.

Lol... Valueless, unattractive, absolutely not, I have a great life and have lived stealth for nearly 4 years now. The comment is that I now see life from the other side. I had the fortune (or misfortune) to recently be involved in an interviewing process. The guys on the team actually rated the women on their attractiveness, I was appaled at this and told them so, none of the men had been marked on their looks.

I doubt that any MTF who doesn't pass 100%, lives in stealth would have got past their sexist attitude.

Buffy