Susan's Place Transgender Resources

As someone who does not believe in an afterlife, it's the elephant in the room for me. As I get older and venture beyond my immortal youth, I tend to think about it a lot more often. I am of course talking about why we bother worrying about the quality of life, posthumous legacies and what others think of us. I mean, after we're dead, none of this will matter anyway, irrespective of whether we've lived a full and productive life or resigned to being a couch potato. Perhaps it's the only real consolation we take to our graves, that death is the great leveller and that none of it mattered anyway.

So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

The effects my life has on others, be it for good or evil, will continue after I die.

It matters.

Quote from: JS on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
As someone who does not believe in an afterlife, it's the elephant in the room for me. As I get older and venture beyond my immortal youth, I tend to think about it a lot more often. I am of course talking about why we bother worrying about the quality of life, posthumous legacies and what others think of us. I mean, after we're dead, none of this will matter anyway, irrespective of whether we've lived a full and productive life or resigned to being a couch potato. Perhaps it's the only real consolation we take to our graves, that death is the great leveller and that none of it mattered anyway.

So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

Kia Ora JS,

Very good question/s...However I'm not in a position to give a satisfactory answer...I look forward to the responses from others...

Metta Zenda :)

Oh, a great question.

I believe we leave ripples on the real universe that attenuate but widen after we are gone. The number of people who knew us dwindles down to nothing, but our impact on the world bounces back and forth and becomes woven into the fabric of the future. Every time I reply to a post, I might change someone's outlook or increase their knowledge that will make them slightly more successful at whatever contributions they make to the world.

This is part of the reason the breakup of my marriage was so devastating, as was the subsequent claim by my wife that she was miserable the entire 21 years. I saw my impact as being her life partner, and knowing I failed at it (or worse) means that a lot of the positive impact I thought I was having on the world has come to naught.

Yes, I appreciate the noble sentiments about morality (yes, you don't need god(s) to act morally) and posthumous legacies (despite those you leave behind also facing oblivion). But while I too abide by these life philosophies (which I find baffling), the simple fact is that ultimately they don't matter. People keep saying "it matters" but how does it matter exactly? Whether we as individuals or as a society choose to nurture each other through life as painlessly as is humanly possible (Earth as giant hospice), or relish tormenting the weak, what difference is all that going to make when there's nobody left?

One day the Earth will die and then eventually the universe, so any and all great gestures and noble causes will have been for nought. Too melodramatic, you say? When I was in the 5th grade, after some kind of biology lesson, a fellow student came up to me and said, "I'd hate to be a butterfly; they don't live very long". I replied, "One year or eighty, how will you know the difference when you're dead?" He looked at me like I had some kind of illness.

The question is, armed with this knowledge, why do we care about the wellbeing of ourselves and others when one day it will be as though we had never existed at all. One day the passing on of legacies will cease. Perhaps self-awareness comes packaged with an unconscious yet powerful optimism, where we want to stick around and get on with life in the hope that something will save us from oblivion. I guess we have to believe that -- what other choice do we have?

Quote from: JS on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

Simply because this is the only life I have. Hell, I might as well enjoy it. Even when I was still in the closet I was able to do that. Sure, lots of times it would involve things like music, drugs, booze, etc. But you got to do something, ya know? Yeah, I don't do much that's any different than most people. (although the drugs and booze are out of the picture now) I'm nothing special. I just live my life and enjoy things as much as I can given the circumstances. Sure, one day I will kick the bucket and turn to dust but...oh well. It's the only thing that is guaranteed in this life that you will die eventually. So, I'm just going to enjoy myself while I am here (however long or short that time may be).

Quote from: JS on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

I used to just go about my life like anyone else.  Even though I agree that in the really, really, really big picture, none of it matters, I did a pretty good job of just not thinking about that as I suspect most of us do.

Being trans* meant that I lost a lot and got hurt very badly indeed.  It meant no longer having a family, losing my job and probably my entire career, losing a number of friends, etc.  Most of them didn't go easily.  They found particularly nasty ways of being lost.  I will probably bear the emotional scars for the rest of my life.  And I'm still losing things.  Trying to avoid losing my home, for example.  And so I needed (and still do need) a reason to get out of bed in the morning.  And trans* activism became that reason.

I know what it is and how it feels to get nearly destroyed because of who I am and to turn to the one place that is supposedly able to understand (the trans* community) only to be knocked down again.  My activism is about making sure no one has to go through what I did, or that if they do, then they won't have to do it alone.  So I get out to advocate for legislation that will stop others from having what happened to me at work happen to them, or they will have recourse if they do.  I spend time with families so that what happened to me won't happen with them.  And I run support groups that are rather different from all the others around so that when things do happen to people, there is a safe place to go.  Amazingly, given the suicide rate of this community and where one of my groups in particular is located, we have not lost a single person yet.  And I am always out there trying to get others to do the same, preferably without them knowing it.

So . . . That's where I find meaning and willingness to get out of bed. 

Because fundamentally I am selfish. I get out of bed and live my life as the alternative is unappealing. While my guiding moral principle is what does more harm than good is wrong my guiding personal principle is long term selfishness. In other words it wouldn't be best for me to rot away in bed, I wouldn't enjoy that at all. I won't be around to enjoy the world after I am dead so perhapsy outlook will change when I am older but for now I only care about what is in my best interest within the span of my life.

Kia Ora,

Quote from: Hikari on February 03, 2014, 11:27:35 PM
Because fundamentally I am selfish. I get out of bed and live my life as the alternative is unappealing. While my guiding moral principle is what does more harm than good is wrong my guiding personal principle is long term selfishness. In other words it wouldn't be best for me to rot away in bed, I wouldn't enjoy that at all. I won't be around to enjoy the world after I am dead so perhapsy outlook will change when I am older but for now I only care about what is in my best interest within the span of my life.

Selfish genes-give rise to altruistic individuals....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8C-ntwUpzM

Metta Zenda :)

Why do I bother? Because this is the only shot at it I get.

Our life isn't meaningless just because there (possibly) isn't a heaven or some type of afterlife.

We will leave behind children and grandchildren when we pass away. You want to leave a positive impact on your family and the people who knew you. So when people see your name they won't say "ugh" they'll say "he/she was a great man/woman".

Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 12, 2014, 03:42:54 PM
We will leave behind children and grandchildren when we pass away. You want to leave a positive impact on your family and the people who knew you. So when people see your name they won't say "ugh" they'll say "he/she was a great man/woman".

I won't have any kids. I knew that from the time that I was a child in grade school. I never had a girlfriend at any point in school. (The little bit of "puppy love" involving a girl in second grade doesn't count). The orchi sealed the deal later on. I changed my name completely once I went full time. So, once I kick the bucket that will be the end of that.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on February 12, 2014, 06:14:48 PM
I won't have any kids. I knew that from the time that I was a child in grade school. I never had a girlfriend at any point in school. (The little bit of "puppy love" involving a girl in second grade doesn't count). The orchi sealed the deal later on. I changed my name completely once I went full time. So, once I kick the bucket that will be the end of that.

Well, I guess for people who won't have kids are an exception. Didn't think of that but still people will remember you.

Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 12, 2014, 06:22:12 PM
Well, I guess for people who won't have kids are an exception. Didn't think of that but still people will remember you.

I doubt it (but you never know). I tend to fade into the scenery in the grand scheme of things.

I think we care about our own and others well being because it is in our nature to do so. As for me, so far I actually enjoy life. Yes, some times have been rough, but after the first time I think I realized time does numb most pains (for me, anyways). However, I have always assumed that if something bad enough happens, there's always a way out! No time soon, hopefully :)

In the grand scheme of things, obviously none of this matters. It doesn't matter what you look like, what you wear, who you know, what you do, etc because in the end we all end up the same, which is comforting in a way.

To make my life worthwhile. When I'm dead and gone, my name will still be in the credits of many a movie. Perhaps rarely read but still there. I teach Taekwon-do and help kids out there with not just Taekwon-do but life, bullies, school/home concerns. For every 10 kids I teach, if just one is happier for it, I've passed on something worthwhile. If just one appreciates it the way I appreciated the similar role models I had as a kid and pays it forward, then my impact spreads.

Immortality doesn't mean never dying.

My opinion: it's easier to get out of bed not believing in an afterlife. If there was such a great afterlife, why bother with this life? Why do we need more money? Why do we ever need to work hard? Why not just get it over and done with? Wasting days? Meh! Better days are to come. By not believing, a wasted day is exactly that: wasted.

why take a shower when you'll just get dirty again?  why eat when you'll get hungry again?  why anything?

just because there's an inevitable end does not mean it's worthless.

as for meaning and purpose?  you make that for yourself.  depends on what you wanna do with the time you get.

Being Atheist doesn't mean I have nothing to live for, it just means I have nothing to die for.  -  ricky Gervais

Being Atheist means I appreciate everything.  This is my one and only moment in the sun. I am totally privileged to be able to experience this life. 

Existence is amazing. We are the universe given the ability to comprehend itself.

This life is much better than the divine North Korea, spending eternity worshipping our dear leader.

Curiosity gets me out of bed.  I only have a limited amount of time in which to learn things and experience things.

Every day has something to offer that I can enjoy.  A bit of sunlight.  A multicolored leaf.  A song.  An act of kindness.  Even if there isn't much one day, there's sure to be something wonderful tomorrow (or tommorows tommorow).

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
As someone who does not believe in an afterlife, it's the elephant in the room for me. As I get older and venture beyond my immortal youth, I tend to think about it a lot more often. I am of course talking about why we bother worrying about the quality of life, posthumous legacies and what others think of us. I mean, after we're dead, none of this will matter anyway, irrespective of whether we've lived a full and productive life or resigned to being a couch potato. Perhaps it's the only real consolation we take to our graves, that death is the great leveller and that none of it mattered anyway.

So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

YOu don't.  Those are just the breaks, you live, you die, the end.  I don't see the big deal.  Enjoy life while you have it, die with dignity.

The way I see it,  if we don't have an afterlife that just means that we should just do what makes us happiest in the time we have to live.

Leaving your mark on the world, whether it be by the changes you made in society or someones life, or something you made or did is what proves you lived.

If you don't try your hardest to live a life that gives you the most pleasure possible,  or leave your mark on the world or change someones life then what was the point of the time you spent living in the first place? Its just wasted life isn't it?

Thats just the way I see it.

It really doesn't seem bleak to me. The relative ittybittyness of each human life means that I don't have to feel too bad about whether I make it into history books, and I know that the effects of smiling at the postman and paying my bills on time make getting out of bed every day worthwhile.

I don't know that I've ever seen any indicators (in my own life) that what happens to my personhood after I'm dead is an elephant in the room. The big problems are mostly practicalities that would exist whether I went to heaven or just back to the soil.

Honestly you are the only person in my opinion who can answer that question. What do you want to do with your life? I was pretty suicidal before I found my extremely open minded other whom (at the risk of sounding cliche) gave me a reason to live despite my mounting pessimism. Then we finally got access to the internet and computer and I had thought about it enough by that point to find out the word for what I am feeling from a few searches, found a few local doctors who do ICATH and now I'm eagerly but painstakingly awaiting my appointment in a little over a week to get my hrt and a day after I have my name change appointment and I've printed off a change of gender change form that the physician is going to sign. You need to stay busy and try not to let it affect you too much, everyone dies sometime and I know it's not very good advice but it's inevitable so there is really no point in worrying all that much. All you can really do is take the proper precautions to prolong your life as long as you want it to continue. Mood altering substances are worth a try, especially if you're getting older you might as well right?

TL; DR My other and my transition give me hope for the future as we're going to travel soon, go backpacking, bike riding, seeing the sights and know that they are in fact good. Just do what you want to do and who cares about what anyone else says as long as you're not hurting anyone innocent and you're happy.

i like to not bother and stay in bed i dont feel i need a reason to bother if i dont have any (except to keep myself alive in case it change), sometime i wish i was a plant a flower or a tree with no need to bother for anything.   but i believe in an afterlife and reincarnation

I hope that someday I might enjoy life for a change.

Jean, I'm really sorry that you're struggling. :icon_hug:

I've definitely been there. I've struggled with depression my whole life, and I've spent a lot of time feeling hopeless and helpless. I'm on anti-depressants and just started seeing a new therapist and things feel like they're getting better.

Tomorrow is a new day.

Hugs.

I'm kinda a dirty hedonist. I live for the pleasures and happiness of life, if small. For a period of my life I was living day by day so I could eat egg sandwiches in the morning.  :icon_dribble:

I am not an atheist but I don't really live for the afterlife. In fact, I kind of dread having to die and give up all my worldly stuff. I know that doesn't make me a good Christian, but who really cares. One life to live. After all, if I believed in the afterlife why not just wait until death where my soul is female and I'll be a woman in heaven, right? Ha!

Who says life needs to have a purpose?  Doesn't it seem kind of narcissistic and egotistical to think that your existence matters in any small way to the universe as a whole?

Why bother?  Because I exist, and I'd rather exist than not.  That's why I bother.  Because, any day now, I'm going to die, and I'm not going to have any memory of my life because there won't be a me to have a memory.  My brain will no longer function, my "soul" as we know it will dissipate into the ether, and I will cease to be.  And maybe this is selfish on my part, but maybe the only purpose I need to have is the fact that I simply AM.  Maybe that's all the purpose any of us need, because if you really need to think you're some kind of superhero or messiah in order to get out of bed and live a life, maybe you're the one with the problem.

But that's just me.  I don't speak for anyone beyond that.

Is human life inherently meaningless? Do we have a purpose? Basically, we are the culmination of billions of years of dust floating around in space, collecting together, gravitating enough to start fusing and sending energy to other little bits nearby. That energy was used in chemical reactions that, after another obscene amount of years, are now able to consciously alter, maintain, or even end their existence. Arguably, we even intimately connect with every other particle in the universe via quantum entanglement. We don't just exist in the universe; we ARE the universe. I find that incredibly remarkable, and I see as having purpose for being here, right now.

If this is the only life we have to live, if it is the only chance we get to touch people's lives and enrich our own, then I consider living it. We can live for pleasure, or we can live a life in which we both grow on a personal level, and touch the lives of others in some meaningful way. It's an oversimplification, but it's probably the most meaning you can expect to find in a godless universe. There is no objective meaning of life, or purpose, but we create our own meaning, both as a society and an individual. For me, it's the acquisition of knowledge, the pursuit of truth, perfection, of human unity. Life fascinates me, and as suffering as it can be and has been, curiosity keeps me here.

For me, I bother doing the stuff I do basically because I guess it's better than doing nothing and waiting to die.
Sure the nihilist in me just stares off defeated by cynicism and fatalism at the world but I might as well just try to enjoy myself while I'm alive and find something to do or help others and such.

Certainly doing anything is better than suffering paralyzed by the thoughts of my currently inevitable demise.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
As someone who does not believe in an afterlife, it's the elephant in the room for me. As I get older and venture beyond my immortal youth, I tend to think about it a lot more often. I am of course talking about why we bother worrying about the quality of life, posthumous legacies and what others think of us. I mean, after we're dead, none of this will matter anyway, irrespective of whether we've lived a full and productive life or resigned to being a couch potato. Perhaps it's the only real consolation we take to our graves, that death is the great leveller and that none of it mattered anyway.

So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

I don't understand the thought process of 'this will end eventually > therefore 70 or so years of living on this planet is worthless'. Everything still matters. It matters even more because it will end. I don't live for an end goal of reaching an afterlife or even a legacy, so I live for all the things that I can experience while I'm alive. It could be just simple pleasures and passing moments, and sometimes it's more. I don't think it's bleak. Life has a lot of meaning to me.

If nothing matters, then it doesn't matter that nothing matters. This is the nihilistic inclination that Nietzsche foretold, and attempted to argue against. The idea that absent eternity, that nothing matters. Life, living, creating matters -- like it always did. The absence left by eternity is not a real absence, as it was never there to begin with. The impermanent is always all that mattered, all that matters, and all that always will matter. 

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
As someone who does not believe in an afterlife, it's the elephant in the room for me. As I get older and venture beyond my immortal youth, I tend to think about it a lot more often. I am of course talking about why we bother worrying about the quality of life, posthumous legacies and what others think of us. I mean, after we're dead, none of this will matter anyway, irrespective of whether we've lived a full and productive life or resigned to being a couch potato. Perhaps it's the only real consolation we take to our graves, that death is the great leveller and that none of it mattered anyway.

So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

To have experiences and realizations in this brief time I'm alive. There is nothing to lose. It's just an opportunity to see, feel, touch, do things before it's back to nothingness.

The mortality question goes both ways. If mortality and nothingness and inevitably being forgotten means life is meaningless, then endless life also means that life loses its worth. Time is only valuable if you have a shortfall of it, which makes it important to live and live well if you are mortal. That gives life meaning; it is short and it is once only for you, so it is valuable.

An immortal life would have me looking for ways to do myself in eventually whereas no matter how awful this life has got, I've never quite wanted to go through with that because I know my time is very limited. The human brain most likely is not designed for immortality since it quickly experiences boredom and disappointment and burnout... and forever is... a concept we can barely comprehend as an experience. We're designed to survive and learn and reproduce as quickly as we can before it's all over. I don't think a human consciousness as we stand at present could bear immortality. I know I couldn't. I might get a few centuries or even millennia in, but we're talking forever here. Someday I would want it to just stop.

Human lifespans are a bit too short at present to squeeze all of our potential out, and our bodies too limited and start degenerating too early... but I don't think immortality is any more desirable.

I honestly find some religions' answers to the bleak and inevitable reality more disturbing and unnatural sounding than the idea I'll just go back to unfeeling space dust cycling in and out of stars and the void. The latter sounds fine. The idea of hanging out in a heaven or a hell where I experience a particular feeling for eternity does not.

After all, I've been nothingness before, as it were... before I existed and got conceived. Wasn't so bad at all.  ;)

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 28, 2015, 11:28:54 AM
After all, I've been nothingness before, as it were... before I existed and got conceived. Wasn't so bad at all.  ;)

I don't fear nothingness at all.  Not one tiny, little bit. 

However, the transitional process strikes me as quite unpleasant and something to be avoided. 

I enjoy life and try not to think about the big picture.

I think people need to find their own way on this one, and if you can find something to give it meaning great, even if its not true. Personally I can't, so I prefer to avoid thinking about it as much as possible.

The Gospel According to Whedon is why I bother.

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do, 'cause that's all there is [...] if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."

Quote from: Colleen M on December 28, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
I don't fear nothingness at all.  Not one tiny, little bit. 

However, the transitional process strikes me as quite unpleasant and something to be avoided.

I agree, and I'm not looking forward to what my nervous system will experience, but still. That won't last long, I hope.

Positive Existentialism!

Life is meaningless and all actions equally so. Therefore go do what you love and employ the ->-bleeped-<- it adjustment as best you can!

Also food is nice and thats over in the kitchen so I gotta get up for it!

you don't have to be a believer in any thing. The fundamental nature of the universe is that it gave birth to the planet earth . The natural of iron is that it will always be iron unless you push anther proton into it , but as it is it will always be the same. There is absolutely no reason as far as the elements of the universe are concerned that another earth born of the same elements , positioned in the  zone for life to form, to create a clone in every way shape and form of the planet earth with all the life forms floating in the same salty goop . Hence without any notion of anything other than an atheistic view you have reason to have hope beyond this particular period of earth time. Please ; this is not in any way an argument for anything other than an atheistic concept based on the fundamental laws of physics.

I do believe in an afterlife, just not the Christian version.  I don't really worry to much about it either way though because if I'm right then things will be great and if I'm wrong I'll never know the difference.  Since there is no way right now of being any more certain than I already am the time here is better spent living and loving and seeking happiness.


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Quote from: Jenna Stannis on February 03, 2014, 03:04:31 PM
So, given our shared situation, our human condition, how do rise above this bleak and inevitable reality? How do you rise out of bed in the morning and get on with life despite it all meaning absolutely nothing? Why do you bother?

Why eternity is supposed to be good? Or afterlife?

How eternity just by its mere existence is going to give us a meaning? Why it makes more meaning than death? Why should be eternity a meaning in itself?

I can't see how I'm gonna be conscious of my own death. I wasn't conscious at the beginning. I can't see why something unavoidable would disturb nor worry me. I can't see how something I'm likely not going to sense would affect me.

I got an entire universe full of reasons to get up every morning. I find pleasure in knowledge, in beauty, in relationships, in altruism, in work. Why do not bother? The universe is waiting for me and my time is running out.

Gonna become immortal or die tryin'!

Hahaha

QuoteWhy do you bother?

Meh... why not?

Quote from: KongBeta on December 31, 2015, 08:12:53 PM
Positive Existentialism!

Life is meaningless and all actions equally so. Therefore go do what you love and employ the <not allowed> it adjustment as best you can!

Also food is nice and thats over in the kitchen so I gotta get up for it!

Love it.

What about positive nihilism?

None of my actions will ever really matter and I have to do something until I die so I chose to enjoy myself as much as I can to relieve the terrible suffering of existence!

at the moment I bother because I want to build a nice wardrobe and with the help of estrogen fit into those dresses perfectly.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 04, 2016, 09:07:31 AM
at the moment I bother because I want to build a nice wardrobe and with the help of estrogen fit into those dresses perfectly.

;D ;D ;D ;D

And, from own experience, that is more than enough struggle to deal with!

Quote from: Frae on February 04, 2016, 06:18:07 AM
What about positive nihilism?

Yup. Just because life many not have any inherent value doesn't mean it can't be fun.