Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I don't know where to put this because it is not really activism, not an editorial, and not political per se.  It's just talk about a more inclusive trans* community that avoids some of the infighting that is common in the community. 

This is the text of a speech I made at the Montgomery County, Maryland Transgender Day of Remembrance and Unity which was observed November 16, 2013.  Since I gave it, I have had people bugging me to publish it somewhere.  Most recently, I had someone urging me to publish it earlier today.  Soooooooo . . . Since I don't really know where else to put it, I am going to go ahead and put it here in hopes that it may spark some discussion about a more inclusive community or otherwise be helpful to people.  Here it is:

I'd like us to step away from the present day for a moment and step back to July 4, 1776.  A group of men signed a document announcing that they planned to lead a rural backwater in a rebellion against the superpower of their day.  They knew that the penalty for their action was death by hanging.  And they knew that their only hope of victory lay in overcoming their own divisions and standing together.  They came up with various ways of expressing that need.  Some that we remember today include the image of a snake divided into segments with the message written below it, "join or die."  Or perhaps Ben Franklin put it most cleverly:  "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."  There were many ways to express the idea, but the idea was always the same:  join together or die separately. 

So you may be wondering, what does the beginning of our country have to do with the Transgender Day of Remembrance?  We are few.  We are wounded.  We are poor.  We are some of the least powerful people in this world.  Yet we are the only people who will make our lives better.  We face the same choice as this country's founders:  join together or die separately.

As I travel around the trans* community, I see little unity.  I see division.  I see us fighting among ourselves.  And while we fight, the list of names we remember on the Day of Remembrance grows longer.  Transmen and transwomen don't associate with one another.  The list of names grows longer.  People of color are left out to fend for themselves.  The list of names grows longer.  Genderqueer people are told they make trans* people look bad.  The list of names grows longer.  One organization works to pass a bill protecting us.   A second organization working for the same goal tries with all it's might to undo the work of the first.  The list of names grows longer.  We exclude stealth people, telling them they are traitors.  The list of names grows longer.  Trans* people who find a home with cisgender people are told they are "not trans* enough."  The list of names grows longer.  As we fight among ourselves over petty issues, people are dying and the list of names we remember today keeps getting longer.  And in case you're wondering, yes, I have actually witnessed everything I just listed, and I've been a target for much of it myself.

On so many levels and in so many ways, we are divided against ourselves.  While we fight among ourselves, people are dying.  More to the point, we are dying.  So if the choice is to join together or die, then right now we are choosing to die separately.

I know that we are wounded and angry.  Our wounds and anger make it hard to trust.  I know it because I too am wounded.  But I also know that if I hope to stave off homelessness or one day work as a lawyer again, my best hope lies in joining forces to work with everyone else I can find to make all our lives better, for a rising tide really does raise all ships, including mine.  If I am to one day work as a lawyer again, it will happen because the world became more friendly to trans* people.  Not because I tried to lift myself by putting down everyone else down.  So as I make my choice to join together or die separately.  I choose to join together.

What does joining together look like?

It does not matter if you are from Maryland, DC, Virginia, or the moon.  It doesn't matter if you are a transman, a transwoman, genderqueer, a gender ->-bleeped-<-, she male, crossdresser, cisgender ally, detransitioner, retransitioner, multiple transitioner, a person of trans experience, or a person who doesn't quite know exactly what they are.  It doesn't matter if you are a person of color or lily white.  It doesn't matter if you pass or if you think passing is a bad word.  It doesn't matter if you are "out and proud" or if you are deep in stealth, living your life by blending in or perhaps even living in fear.  It does not matter who you are or what you believe.  If you need to honor those who died for being like us, then there is space for you right here, right now.  We don't always agree.  But for today, as we make our choice to join together or die separately, we have chosen  to join together.  But that needs to continue far beyond today.

We are a very diverse community.  We identify in so many ways.  To some of us, being trans* is the core of who we are.  And to others, it is just a part of our history, one we'd rather forget.  We believe many things.  We don't always agree.  But we all have one thing in common:  we are all just trying to live our lives. 

It is no coincidence that the word "unity" is a part of the word "community."  For until we truly have unity, we shall not truly have a community.  We can embrace the differences in our identities.  Disagreements can be worked out.  We can respect one another's beliefs.  Our differences can make us stronger, for where I am weak, someone else is sure to be strong.  We can join together and in ways large and small, make the world better for all of us just by you knowing that you are safe with me and me knowing that I am safe with you.  By knowing that if you need me I'm here.  And if I need you, you will be there.  By making sure that if we fight to end the discrimination and violence we remember today, I am on your side.  And you are on mine.  Just for having done so, the list of names we remember on this day will start to grow slower.  So join together or die separately.  We can join together for all time.  And by doing it, we can start to change the world and save our lives.

What if we recognized that a trans* person was poor, so we had them over for dinner and they had one less meal to buy?  What if we knew that a trans* person couldn't find work, so we handed their resume to our boss and asked, "could we use someone like this?"  What if we knew a trans* person going through hard times and we were just willing to listen?  Might we see fewer suicides if we did this?  If the people we remember today had had a safe place to turn, might some of them still be with us?

Changing the world doesn't require heroism.  It only requires being kind.

So, I say again:  if you want to join together, it does not matter who you are.  It does not matter if you are from Maryland, DC, Virginia, or the moon.  It doesn't matter if you identify as a transman, a transwoman, genderqueer, a gender ->-bleeped-<-, she male, crossdresser, cisgender ally, detransitioner, retransitioner, multiple transitioner, a person of trans experience, or a person who doesn't quite know exactly what they are.  It doesn't matter if you are a person of color or lily white.  It doesn't matter if you pass or if you think passing is a bad word.  It doesn't matter if you are "out and proud" or if you are deep in stealth, living your life by blending in or perhaps even living in fear.  This community is big enough for you.  It has a place for all trans* people of all kinds and all of our allies too. 

If you will stand together with us, would you please rise and stand together right now.

Stay standing for now please and take a look around.  It's good that we gather today in a Christian church.  Regardless of whether you accept Jesus as son of god, or think he was just a man, the fact is that this is a different world because he lived.  Just one person made a huge difference and history is littered with many more of whom the same can be said--Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and many others.  And as I look around, I see a lot more than one person standing together.  Just I magine what we can do together.

It doesn't mean we will all agree.  It doesn't mean we will all be the same.  But it does mean we work together, we embrace our differences, and we do not hurt one another.  We stand together.

To stand today is to make a promise.  So when we leave here today, I have only one request.  It's a call to all of us.  It's a request.  It's a plea.  When you leave here tonight:  Keep. Standing. Together.  Don't let it end today.

Thank you.  Please be seated. 

and if we disagree there is always the "negative reputation tool" right?  my fair lady

Many people do disagree.  There is a lot of sniping and infighting in the trans* community (admittedly Maryland seems a worse place than most).  But the great thing about unity as an issue is that it tends to be . . . well . . . unifying.  Over time, people who prefer dissension and fighting among themselves end up being outsiders because they are the only ones who refused to come aboard with everyone else.

I do not understand why it seems like so often trans* people prefer to snip and snipe at one another instead of supporting one another.  I wish I knew what to do about it.  But the good news is it seems to be an idea whose time has come.  I'm no longer the only person out there preaching the gospel of fighting for us all instead of fighting amongst ourselves. 

If anyone has ideas on how to build a stronger, more inclusive, more supportive, more unified community, I really would like to hear them.

I have no suggestions or answers about unity. I may be a fatalist and think it will happen if it is meant to happen.
However, if I stumble upon something that promotes unity, I'll share.
I will share your speech.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 16, 2014, 11:07:48 PM

If anyone has ideas on how to build a stronger, more inclusive, more supportive, more unified community, I really would like to hear them.

My suggestion is to keep preaching, and living what you talked about in your speech. The only way, in my opinion, to change anything is to live by example. You mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. in your speech. He changed things by living what he preached. I agree with everything you said in your speech and feel that if we all try and follow that line of thinking we will eventually overcome our oppression.

Thank you for posting this. I quite enjoyed reading it.

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 17, 2014, 11:17:27 AM
My suggestion is to keep preaching, and living what you talked about in your speech. The only way, in my opinion, to change anything is to live by example. You mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. in your speech. He changed things by living what he preached. I agree with everything you said in your speech and feel that if we all try and follow that line of thinking we will eventually overcome our oppression.

Thank you for posting this. I quite enjoyed reading it.

When I gave this speech, I thought that the audience was really turned off by it.  Mara Kiesling went after me and seemed unimpressed.  Then after the service, I must have had at least 100 people come up and shake my hand.  The people bugging me to publish it started then and that has not yet stopped.  One minister who sits on the County's Committee on Hate/Violence actually compared it to a speech by Martin Luther King, Jr.  The comparison is, of course, nonsense.  But the reaction made me feel better.

But now I have this thing I wrote and said and I have no idea what to do with it.  I don't enjoy the attention.  But I am very glad you found it enjoyable and helpful. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 11:57:13 AM

But now I have this thing I wrote and said and I have no idea what to do with it.  I don't enjoy the attention.  But I am very glad you found it enjoyable and helpful.

If I might make a suggestion, reach out to some of the activist organizations and ask them if they would publish it. They could do it anonymously if you would like. I would suggest the Gay and Lesbian Task force in DC, and to reach the west coast Ingersol in Seattle. Autostraddle, a lesbian website would also probably post it, as well as the Seattle Lesbian (an online news page for lesbians). All of these organizations are pro-trans. I do believe that this could help the community at large. If you would like some assistance, I have some contacts at most of these organizations. If you are interested, PM me and we will talk about it more.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 16, 2014, 11:07:48 PM
If anyone has ideas on how to build a stronger, more inclusive, more supportive, more unified community, I really would like to hear them.

Leadership is really challenging. In addition to having management skills, successful leaders absolutely must, must, must have two things:

Vision: The ability to see the correct way forward and to reject those ways that appear to lead somewhere but do not. This requires a magical mix of creativity and judgment that I think can't be taught. I have several times been in the company of visionary leaders and I am quite in awe of what they were able to accomplish. Without this ability it would have been impossible.

Charisma: Vision does no good unless people will follow you. Unlike vision, though, I think charisma can be learned. Influence is a skill made of up of dozens of techniques (sometimes conflicting) and rules of thumb when each might apply. I think of charisma as kind of a toolbox. The more tools you have for influencing people, the more effective a leader you can be, because different tools work in different situations. Sometimes a powerful speech will do the trick, other times person-to-person contact is needed. Persuasion has its place, as does incentive. My experience is that you develop a feel over time of which tool is appropriate for which occasion.

So, my answer to your question would be to develop a vision and broad enough influence skills that will motivate others to follow it.

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 17, 2014, 12:23:52 PM
If I might make a suggestion, reach out to some of the activist organizations and ask them if they would publish it. They could do it anonymously if you would like. I would suggest the Gay and Lesbian Task force in DC, and to reach the west coast Ingersol in Seattle. Autostraddle, a lesbian website would also probably post it, as well as the Seattle Lesbian (an online news page for lesbians). All of these organizations are pro-trans. I do believe that this could help the community at large. If you would like some assistance, I have some contacts at most of these organizations. If you are interested, PM me and we will talk about it more.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I have a concern about it.  Creating a more unified and supportive community needs to come from the trans* community.  We are the ones who have to do it.  I don't mind if someone wanted to put it in a gay or lesbian publication, but I am concerned that if it came from somewhere the NGLTF or elsewhere that is an LG or LGB dominated source, it would be perceived as gay folks telling trans* people what to do, even if they were using an officially approved of trans* voice to do it.  That could have the opposite impact of what is tended. 

Since there aren't many T organizations out there and there is very little communication infrastructure, maybe it would be best to make unifying ideas go viral within the community by sharing them with people and getting them to share with others?

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 17, 2014, 05:01:30 PM
Leadership is really challenging. In addition to having management skills, successful leaders absolutely must, must, must have two things:

Vision: The ability to see the correct way forward and to reject those ways that appear to lead somewhere but do not. This requires a magical mix of creativity and judgment that I think can't be taught. I have several times been in the company of visionary leaders and I am quite in awe of what they were able to accomplish. Without this ability it would have been impossible.

Charisma: Vision does no good unless people will follow you. Unlike vision, though, I think charisma can be learned. Influence is a skill made of up of dozens of techniques (sometimes conflicting) and rules of thumb when each might apply. I think of charisma as kind of a toolbox. The more tools you have for influencing people, the more effective a leader you can be, because different tools work in different situations. Sometimes a powerful speech will do the trick, other times person-to-person contact is needed. Persuasion has its place, as does incentive. My experience is that you develop a feel over time of which tool is appropriate for which occasion.

So, my answer to your question would be to develop a vision and broad enough influence skills that will motivate others to follow it.

Thank you for this.  I agree with you that vision and charisma are needed things.  And I am very thankful to anyone who can help me to develop these skills.  They are not only needed here. They are hugely useful in life as a whole.

But I also read this as suggesting that I personally should develop these things, presumably because I personally should lead the effort to unify the trans* community.  If the assumption is that I would lead something, then I disagree with that.  If any one person--whether me or someone else--were to lead this then as soon as that unifying leader was absent, the unity they achieved would likely fall apart.  This is about trying to make a change in mind sets and in hearts.  It is not that we are trying to achieve a particular goal.  Except that we are trying to change the ways people go about achieving those goals--all for one and one for all rather than people tearing one another down.

For this to work, it needs to be we, not me, who are doing it.  And we all lead simply by being ourselves and practicing supportiveness and inclusion in our daily lives. 

And then, of course, there's the fact that I don't want the job, which is another issue of its own . . . .

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PM
I appreciate the suggestion, but I have a concern about it.  Creating a more unified and supportive community needs to come from the trans* community.  We are the ones who have to do it.  I don't mind if someone wanted to put it in a gay or lesbian publication, but I am concerned that if it came from somewhere the NGLTF or elsewhere that is an LG or LGB dominated source, it would be perceived as gay folks telling trans* people what to do, even if they were using an officially approved of trans* voice to do it.  That could have the opposite impact of what is tended. 

Since there aren't many T organizations out there and there is very little communication infrastructure, maybe it would be best to make unifying ideas go viral within the community by sharing them with people and getting them to share with others?

I can appreciate your concern. Ingersol in Seattle is a transgender organization. It was founded by a trans woman I know. I will probably be seeing her this week if you would like me to mention it to her. If not, that's fine too. I don't want to come across as being pushy.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PM
But I also read this as suggesting that I personally should develop these things, presumably because I personally should lead the effort to unify the trans* community. 

Not really what I was suggesting. Just saying that if the Trans community is all going to row in the same direction, we'll probably need someone calling the strokes. Sometimes finding a leader or lining up behind one that's already making a difference is better than trying to set one up.

OTOH, if you DO see yourself in that role, these are the skills that would be helpful.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PMIf any one person--whether me or someone else--were to lead this then as soon as that unifying leader was absent, the unity they achieved would likely fall apart. 

Well good leaders do their best to build continuity in their organizations. When I took leadership classes, there was an entire session on "succession management", meaning how to ensure the organization continues without you.

You're right that it's easier said than done. Apple Computer has really struggled after Jobs was gone, but that doesn't mean the company didn't achieve exciting results (as anyone whose ever used an IPOD, IPhone or IPAD will attest). Counterexamples exists. Many organizations continue to be relevant after their founding visionary departs.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PMThis is about trying to make a change in mind sets and in hearts.  It is not that we are trying to achieve a particular goal.  Except that we are trying to change the ways people go about achieving those goals--all for one and one for all rather than people tearing one another down.

Here I've got to disagree. It would be really hard to "unite people in the name of unity". People with busy lives unite and work together only when they DO have a particular goal they want to achieve.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PMAnd we all lead simply by being ourselves and practicing supportiveness and inclusion in our daily lives. 

Very true, but even in those cases we learn to practice that supportiveness by example. People don't intrinsically know how to support others, right? (Well maybe some, but for most, it helps to see it done.) I struggle to think of any major social change that was brought about simply because people, on their own, decided to do the right thing.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 17, 2014, 10:37:57 PMAnd then, of course, there's the fact that I don't want the job, which is another issue of its own . . . .

No? I read your early posts in this thread as essentially saying "I made this speech, now how can I make sure the message is heeded?"

The only person whose actions you have any control over is yourself, right? Where others are concerned, we can only lead, influence, or sit back and hope.

I'll be honest, I have no interest uniting other than in a symbolic sense or in a limited capacity.  Personally, I'd like to just be done with my transition and then go stealth and just live my life. That's not to say that I won't advocate issues that concern us or support others in the community, but I'm really not interested in being openly trans and don't want that to define me.  In order to achieve what you say a level of privacy has to be sacrificed.  I'll always stand up for lgbt rights and fight in my own way, but I don't care to put myself out there and risk my own sense of comfort and ability to blend.  That may make me a bad person, but it's how I feel. 

Quote from: learningtolive on February 18, 2014, 06:52:36 AM
I'll be honest, I have no interest uniting other than in a symbolic sense or in a limited capacity.  Personally, I'd like to just be done with my transition and then go stealth and just live my life. That's not to say that I won't advocate issues that concern us or support others in the community, but I'm really not interested in being openly trans and don't want that to define me.  In order to achieve what you say a level of privacy has to be sacrificed.  I'll always stand up for lgbt rights and fight in my own way, but I don't care to put myself out there and risk my own sense of comfort and ability to blend.  That may make me a bad person, but it's how I feel.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure who the "you" you're referring to is.  But if you read the speech, you'll see that one of the things I did was criticize those who complain about stealth trans* people.   I don't see why being openly trans* or being defined by being trans* is at all necessary.  I certainly don't think aspiring to that makes you a bad person.  Maybe you are responding to someone else, but I just thought I should point that out.

Still mulling over responses to the other two posters . . . .

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 07:00:44 AM
Hmmmm, I'm not sure who the "you" you're referring to is.  But if you read the speech, you'll see that one of the things I did was criticize those who complain about stealth trans* people.   I don't see why being openly trans* or being defined by being trans* is at all necessary.  I certainly don't think aspiring to that makes you a bad person.  Maybe you are responding to someone else, but I just thought I should point that out.

Still mulling over responses to the other two posters . . . .

Perhaps I didn't catch your meaning.  In what way do you want us to unite? If it's just symbolically, I'm fine with that.  I kind of took it more of a call of advocacy from within the community.  That I support as well, just in a more quiet way for myself that doesn't require sacrificing my privacy.  I think I may have misunderstood your initial post as a call to arms rather than a symbolic form of unity, so I apologize if that's the case.

Quote from: learningtolive on February 18, 2014, 07:26:08 AM
Perhaps I didn't catch your meaning.  In what way do you want us to unite? If it's just symbolically, I'm fine with that.  I kind of took it more of a call of advocacy from within the community.  That I support as well, just in a more quiet way for myself that doesn't require sacrificing my privacy.  I think I may have misunderstood your initial post as a call to arms rather than a symbolic form of unity, so I apologize if that's the case.

I want trans* people to be nice to one another and support one another.  I want transsexual separatists to quit the stuff about not having anything to do with everyone else across the trans* spectrum.  I want the greater trans* community to quit excluding and labeling certain identities as bad (de/retransitioners, gender->-bleeped-<-s, and ->-bleeped-<-s among others).  I want transmen and transwomen to embrace genderqueer persons and welcome them as part of the same community.  I want the "more trans than thou" crowd to get off their high horses and quit trying to make themselves better than others because they aren't.  And I want the "out and proud" crowd to quit putting down the quiet crowds like stealth people.

In putting together the TDOR service this year, we had a couple of attendees who objected to the fact that I suggested some people might be reluctant to participate if doing so meant they would likely get outed in the press.  Those two individuals felt that anyone who didn't want that to happen should not be allowed to participate in the TDOR service at all.  Since my org is the largest trans* org in the county, we had more votes (about half) than anyone else on the planning committee.  So that notion didn't fly very far.  But I made a point of including a very direct repudiation of that notion in the speech.

I don't think I actually mentioned advocacy very much.  It would be nice if when one advocacy org tries to stage a rally and lobbying event to support trans* rights another advocacy org would not work the phones in an effort to prevent people from showing up.  So I did mention something about that.  But this speech barely even mentioned political advocacy.  It was about the community as a whole. 

I do discuss advocacy, but I deal with the advocates outside of TDOR. :)

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 17, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
I can appreciate your concern. Ingersol in Seattle is a transgender organization. It was founded by a trans woman I know. I will probably be seeing her this week if you would like me to mention it to her. If not, that's fine too. I don't want to come across as being pushy.

If you think it's helpful, feel free.  I don't mind if people put it out there.  If you need anything from me, just let me know.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 18, 2014, 05:19:28 AM
Not really what I was suggesting. Just saying that if the Trans community is all going to row in the same direction, we'll probably need someone calling the strokes. Sometimes finding a leader or lining up behind one that's already making a difference is better than trying to set one up.

Whoever has that job has a lot of power within the community.  I don't think that any one person should have that much power.  My hope is that I can just get people thinking thoughts like "cooperation is good."  That way when they go out into the larger trans* community and run into trans* people who are all about fighting and tearing one another down, they are thinking different thoughts because the ideas of being nice to one another and cooperating with one another have already been absorbed into their blood.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 18, 2014, 05:19:28 AM
Here I've got to disagree. It would be really hard to "unite people in the name of unity". People with busy lives unite and work together only when they DO have a particular goal they want to achieve.

But I hope that we can all grasp hold of and embrace the idea of "hey, we all ought to be nice to one another and try to cooperate."  I don't think I'm really saying much more than that. 

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 18, 2014, 05:19:28 AM
No? I read your early posts in this thread as essentially saying "I made this speech, now how can I make sure the message is heeded?"

It's more along the lines of "I made this speech, I've had people bugging me for months now to publish it, so here it is in case it is helpful to people."  This is meant to be the publication.  I posted it on another trans* support site as well.  It's out.  It's published.  If people find it helpful then they are welcome to circulate it, share it, or republish it elsewhere.  If they want me to formally give permissions to publish it elsewhere, I'm happy to do that.  But basically I recognize that some people have seemed to find it helpful.  I hope I've put it in a place where people who are likely to find it helpful can find it.  I'm not sure what else I can or should do.  But I don't want the job of leader of the trans* community.  I've been trying to stay out of it for years now.  I am seriously uncomfortable with the amount of leadership, visibility, and yes, power in this community that I have right now.  I don't want more.  I don't know how I can be more clear about that.

And frankly, I look at the leadership of Gender Rights Maryland in our local and national communities and I fear turning into them.  They are prominent, famous activists who believe in their prominence and local fame a little too much.  They have giant egos run amok.  And they have lost a lot of effectiveness as a result.  I think my chances of avoiding that are best if I can stay in a place of being helpful and supportive to others rather than trying to be the person calling the shots.  It helps to keep my ego smaller than it might otherwise be.

As I contemplate this issue, it occurs to me that trans* folk are as diverse and widespread as "straight" folk.
I wonder if there aren't enought "straight" or cis allies to allow those who wish to be stealth to blend in with "them".
Perhaps the natural and oft justified mistrust of straight folks prevents the comraderie. It msy be coming from a biased point of view, but it takes all kinds to create broad acceptance.
Takes me back to the 60s and 70s of "is she or isn't she?" Let 'em wonder.
We must not accept any meanness.

Yeah you could do what some is are doing. Helping people understand that people who are transitioning want the same normal things everyone else does. And that we are not CD, creeps, child molesters and all that other crap they think.

Quote from: tbunny on February 18, 2014, 11:17:49 AM
As I contemplate this issue, it occurs to me that trans* folk are as diverse and widespread as "straight" folk.
I wonder if there aren't enought "straight" or cis allies to allow those who wish to be stealth to blend in with "them".
Perhaps the natural and oft justified mistrust of straight folks prevents the comraderie. It msy be coming from a biased point of view, but it takes all kinds to create broad acceptance.
Takes me back to the 60s and 70s of "is she or isn't she?" Let 'em wonder.
We must not accept any meanness.

I find that there are plenty of cisgender allies to blend in with.  When I'm not actually doing something trans* related, I am pretty stealth myself.  But I'm still a very vocal and knowledgeable "ally."  Cisgender allies make great camouflage. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 11:52:12 AM
I find that there are plenty of cisgender allies to blend in with.  When I'm not actually doing something trans* related, I am pretty stealth myself.  But I'm still a very vocal and knowledgeable "ally."  Cisgender allies make great camouflage. :)

This. I think that the number of cis allies will only continue to grow as trans issues reach middle America by way of celebrities like Janet Mock and Chaz Bono. A lot of the younger generation is also surprisingly aware of gender variances due to the big social justice push on tumblr. As it becomes less and less acceptable to be ignorant about trans issues, more allies will come out of the woodworks.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 08:32:26 AM
And frankly, I look at the leadership of Gender Rights Maryland in our local and national communities and I fear turning into them.  They are prominent, famous activists who believe in their prominence and local fame a little too much.  They have giant egos run amok.  And they have lost a lot of effectiveness as a result.

That's an affliction that affects leaders everywhere, right? If you have the confidence to think you can pull off something difficult and that people will follow you, that kind of confidence can easily lead to arrogance.

Still, uniting groups of people seems to require leadership of some sort or other, and the benefits often outweigh the problems that come with it. I can't think of examples where movement has happened without it. So I'm afraid when it comes to answering your original question (How do we build a stronger and more unified trans community?), leadership is all I've got.

I am reluctant to wade in here, but perhaps something can be done to assay my concerns.

Let me preface this by saying, I am generally a fan of both thephoenix and suzifrommd, and even though I live on the other side of the beltway I appreciate the work and effort that has gone into making the DMV region a better place to live if trans.

I try to have solidarity with people who have gender expression/identity or sexual orientation divergence. This only seems natural to me as solidarity generally is the best position. However, solidarity is a fairly vague concept and lets me get away with primary symbolic unity or calling for action to assist another group that I don't identify with but has some gender or orientation divergence from society at large.

I however, have serious problems relating to or associating with many groups of people. The people who Identify as Autogyniphillic, fetish crossdressers, and those who do porn for the fun not the money, etc all make me super uncomfortable. They make me exactly as uncomfortable as pushy cismen who whistle, yell or try to grope; or the ciswomen who think they have the right to touch anyone anywhere for any reason. So it isn't like an issue specific to the trans community, but just people who are hypersexual or push their fetish in public.

I know on an intellectual level, that if those sorts of people do things not directed at me that I don't really have the right to complain. Those sorts of people still make me really uncomfortable though, if it is the internet, pride parade, seeing them on a street, etc then I don't really feel that discomfort much, but to actively associate with them would just not work with me. In inclusive groups these sorts of people are almost always there, yet in groups strictly for transsexuals I seem to have a much easier time relating without feeling uncomfortable. This is part of the reason why I am not in any support groups despite there being quite a few in DC, MD and VA.

I come to Susan's because I feel that inclusive nature gives a better perspective and opinion than transsexuals alone, and it also fosters a more supportive environment for people to find who they are. On that sort of level I am fine with unity, but I just can't see me "in the trenches" so to speak with Autogyniphillics, et cetera.

I suppose my question is, exactly what do you mean as unity? If it is as simple as being nice, then I think I can handle that, if however, it would involve much more, I am not so sure I can or even would want to necessarily. I don't resent or hate the people who make me uncomfortable, but neither do I relate to them, nor wish deep associations with them.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I am reluctant to wade in here, but perhaps something can be done to assay my concerns.

Let me preface this by saying, I am generally a fan of both thephoenix and suzifrommd, and even though I live on the other side of the beltway I appreciate the work and effort that has gone into making the DMV region a better place to live if trans.

Now I'm wondering if we know each other!  Anyway, I'm glad you find something about me helpful to you.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I try to have solidarity with people who have gender expression/identity or sexual orientation divergence. This only seems natural to me as solidarity generally is the best position. However, solidarity is a fairly vague concept and lets me get away with primary symbolic unity or calling for action to assist another group that I don't identify with but has some gender or orientation divergence from society at large.

I however, have serious problems relating to or associating with many groups of people. The people who Identify as Autogyniphillic, fetish crossdressers, and those who do porn for the fun not the money, etc all make me super uncomfortable. They make me exactly as uncomfortable as pushy cismen who whistle, yell or try to grope; or the ciswomen who think they have the right to touch anyone anywhere for any reason. So it isn't like an issue specific to the trans community, but just people who are hypersexual or push their fetish in public.

The notion of  ->-bleeped-<- (sexual arousal by thinking of oneself as a woman) as a driver of transition seems pretty well discredited at this point.  But I wonder how you would know if you were talking to one of the few who believes in it?  Unless they come out and tell you . . . In which case, isn't the issue about whether you like the person because of their opinion rather than because of their identity?  Can't the issue be dealt with like any other?  Likewise, how do you know who does porn for fun?  Or who crossdressers because of a fetish?  I'm sorry I don't know much about these issues.

I'm not saying that people must go out and befriend everyone simply because they are on the trans* spectrum somewhere.  But I am saying that when you are part of a small, powerless minority--like trans* people--one very good way for the group to lift itself out of its plight is by helping one another.

That means respecting one another's identity.  No hate and fury like occurred in the ->-bleeped-<- thread in the mtf section.  All identities are okay, all identities are welcome.  We do not seek to control or decide what identities are acceptable because we are too often the victim of people doing that to us.  So . . . Have you hugged a trans* person who is different from you today?

That means looking for ways to help one another instead of tearing one another down.  If someone loses their job for being trans*, then let's do what we can to get them a new one.  Let's send our business to trans* friendly businesses and vote with our feet by walking out of unfriendly ones.  And situations like this year, where one trans* organization works to pass a bill to protect trans* people and another trans* organization launches a series of attack articles in the newspaper to air out their petty grievances should not happen.  Cooperation is way more cooler.

That means let's not hurt one another.  If we can't stand someone, then let's just walk away and let that person be.  Let's not try to personally destroy them.  Not all reactions to my speech were good.  Shortly after I gave it (and published a similarly themed article), I started getting phone calls telling me that a nationally known trans* activist who is also a doctor (a retired eye surgeon) was making phone calls to other LGBT orgs claiming that I am severely mentally ill and they should disregard anything I said.  It's one thing to disagree on the issues.  But that kind of thing has got to stop. 

But I'm talking about this at a macro, large scale community level.  I'm not in the business of telling people how to live their personal lives or approving or disapproving their social contacts.  A big part of what I'm saying really comes down to saying we ought to live and let live.  Tryjng to exert that kind of control would run contrary to living and letting live.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I know on an intellectual level, that if those sorts of people do things not directed at me that I don't really have the right to complain. Those sorts of people still make me really uncomfortable though, if it is the internet, pride parade, seeing them on a street, etc then I don't really feel that discomfort much, but to actively associate with them would just not work with me. In inclusive groups these sorts of people are almost always there, yet in groups strictly for transsexuals I seem to have a much easier time relating without feeling uncomfortable. This is part of the reason why I am not in any support groups despite there being quite a few in DC, MD and VA.

Hmmmmm.  Well, I think I've been to every single support group in DC/MD/NoVa, or at least all that are open to me.  The Second Friday group is so focused on transsexuals that I have had to scold them several times for calling me one.  It's basically an exclusively mtf ts group.  MAGIC is pretty much all mtf ts as well, with occasional ftm ts folk and a rare genderqueer person who never seems to come twice.  My own org is full of all kinds of identities and is probably the best group in the area for non-binary identities and others outside the usual.  But it has none of the people you are describing. 

I've heard TGEA described that way and I can kind of see why.  But other than that, I do not know of a single trans* group in the area that would be anything like what you are describing.  Could it be that some used to be like that and have changed?  Otherwise I would have to say I honestly don't know what you're talking about.  But if you wanted to find a local group, I would help you find one that might fit.  And if you wanted someone to meet you there and go with you so you didn't have to walk in without any friends in the space, I would do that too. 

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I come to Susan's because I feel that inclusive nature gives a better perspective and opinion than transsexuals alone, and it also fosters a more supportive environment for people to find who they are. On that sort of level I am fine with unity, but I just can't see me "in the trenches" so to speak with Autogyniphillics, et cetera.

Well, no one is suggesting that anyone get in the trenches at all.  Basically all I'm saying is it would be really great if people would be nice to one another.  I'm not urging people to be advocates, get in any trenches, or anything else.  Just be kind.  If there's a single line from my speech that I wish people would grab hold of, it is this one:  "Changing the world doesn't require heroism.  It only requires being kind."

I will join with you in agreeing that Susan's is a more inclusive place than many.  But for many people here, there still seem to be approved categories and if you fall outside of them, you're going to get flamed. 

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I suppose my question is, exactly what do you mean as unity? If it is as simple as being nice, then I think I can handle that, if however, it would involve much more, I am not so sure I can or even would want to necessarily. I don't resent or hate the people who make me uncomfortable, but neither do I relate to them, nor wish deep associations with them.

Unity is great because it can mean so many things.  But I think my speech was basically just about being nice and being respectful.  If people are going to get into the trenches and do work to get things done, then they should cooperate.  But it's not a speech about getting people fired up to do things. 

I've given the call to arms speech too, but I did not write it down, I'm afraid. :)

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 18, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
That's an affliction that affects leaders everywhere, right? If you have the confidence to think you can pull off something difficult and that people will follow you, that kind of confidence can easily lead to arrogance.

Still, uniting groups of people seems to require leadership of some sort or other, and the benefits often outweigh the problems that come with it. I can't think of examples where movement has happened without it. So I'm afraid when it comes to answering your original question (How do we build a stronger and more unified trans community?), leadership is all I've got.

The floor is now open for nominations.  ThePhoenix has made a Sherman declaration, so it's gotta be someone else. :)

But more seriously, I agree with you that leadership is needed.  But I think it's better with a zillion small leaders than one big one. 

As far as what happened with the folks at GRMD . . . I guess it is an occupational hazard.  Which is why when Rome awarded a triumph, the returning hero had a slave who accompanied him in his chariot just to whisper in his ear "you are still mortal."  Probably remaining skeptical about one's own press helps.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
The notion of  ->-bleeped-<- (sexual arousal by thinking of oneself as a woman) as a driver of transition seems pretty well discredited at this point.  But I wonder how you would know if you were talking to one of the few who believes in it?  Unless they come out and tell you . . . In which case, isn't the issue about whether you like the person because of their opinion rather than because of their identity?  Can't the issue be dealt with like any other?  Likewise, how do you know who does porn for fun?  Or who crossdressers because of a fetish?  I'm sorry I don't know much about these issues.

Allow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me.

Quite a few years back, I used to hang around the...less savory parts of Richmond, and sometimes SW DC. Perhaps this has alot to do with my aversion to the people like this. I know some of these people used to go to the Fan Free Clinic (I even did briefly, but Whitmann-Walker is much closer to me now, even if I don't go to either of them now). The thing is, I suppose I almost feel a guilt by association, if I am hanging around these people, especially the ones who work the corner.

Maybe I let past experiences cloud my judgement, to be fair I have never been a member of an official support group IRL. The gatherings of trans people I have been to were usually on a street corner or someones house, and not a formal event at all. When I watch stories online of trans people like Andrea James, Kimberly Reed, etc it is absolutely nothing like the people who I met IRL. This has kept me largely on the internet for trans issues, because I can relate to some stories here, I find Kimberly Reed's documentary particularly relateable. No corners, over sexualization, or back alley silicone injections in that documentary, but I have seen all of that in the streets of the cities around me.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
That means respecting one another's identity.  No hate and fury like occurred in the ->-bleeped-<- thread in the mtf section.  All identities are okay, all identities are welcome.  We do not seek to control or decide what identities are acceptable because we are too often the victim of people doing that to us.  So . . . Have you hugged a trans* person who is different from you today?

See, this is what I mean, when I read that thread I had a rather visceral negative reaction to the term itself, much less the other content. I would note that I didn't participate, if I have nothing nice to say I won't I was raised better than that after all. I am just not sure how well unity can work if I feel like that even if I don't tear other people down (which I don't I am not mean).

And, for the record I have only hugged two people in the last 3 months lol, so no I have not hugged another trans* person today (or ever for that matter), I am just not too into hugging people unless I know them really well. Which does make me sound really prudish but I am who I am I guess.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
...But I think my speech was basically just about being nice and being respectful...

That I can handle....at least until some self identified Autogyniphillic tries and tell me that I am deluded and that I don't really have a female gender identity, but some bizarre fetish and in denial. I don't handle it too well when people try and push their ideas onto me, and will react in a negative manner, but outside of that I can be nice.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Allow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me.

Well, people still need to respect one another.  That's a two way street.  I think they need to respect you too.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Quite a few years back, I used to hang around the...less savory parts of Richmond, and sometimes SW DC. Perhaps this has alot to do with my aversion to the people like this. I know some of these people used to go to the Fan Free Clinic (I even did briefly, but Whitmann-Walker is much closer to me now, even if I don't go to either of them now). The thing is, I suppose I almost feel a guilt by association, if I am hanging around these people, especially the ones who work the corner.

If you don't want to be seen with the sex workers and the like (probably a good safety idea because police might think you were either their client or one if them and arrest you too, not to mention possible street crime) then one might suggest going elsewhere.  The less savory parts of town are where you're going to find that element.  You'll see less or none of it in better parts of town and in the support groups.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Maybe I let past experiences cloud my judgement, to be fair I have never been a member of an official support group IRL. The gatherings of trans people I have been to were usually on a street corner or someones house, and not a formal event at all. When I watch stories online of trans people like Andrea James, Kimberly Reed, etc it is absolutely nothing like the people who I met IRL. This has kept me largely on the internet for trans issues, because I can relate to some stories here, I find Kimberly Reed's documentary particularly relateable. No corners, over sexualization, or back alley silicone injections in that documentary, but I have seen all of that in the streets of the cities around me.

People do what they have to do.  I do not support self-medicating, back alley injections, or sex work.  But I also recognize that people are desperate and many of the ways to get their needs met at closed to them, so they resort to things like that.  I do not pass judgment on them and I won't be the one to condemn them.  If I were in their situation, I might do the same thing.  So canning some judgmentalism is a good thing.  But so is trying to support people getting into a safer situation.

As far as the support groups, I really would suggest trying some of the organized ones.  If you were to try MAGIC on Friday, I will be there and we could talk more about this stuff face to face if you wanted to.  Just ask the group to point out ThePhoenix and I will raise my hand. :)

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
See, this is what I mean, when I read that thread I had a rather visceral negative reaction to the term itself, much less the other content. I would note that I didn't participate, if I have nothing nice to say I won't I was raised better than that after all. I am just not sure how well unity can work if I feel like that even if I don't tear other people down (which I don't I am not mean).

When I talk to the community, I tend to be pretty frank.  I'm not mean, but I am honest.  And when I talk about the need for infighting to stop, I always make sure to include some identities that real people have but that trans* people don't like.  I do that for two reasons. 

One is that the people who are uncomfortable and do not like the idea of someone else calling themselves a "->-bleeped-<-," for example, are exactly who I'm talking to.  If someone else's identity is troubling to you, then I would suggest that there is some work on acceptance that you still need to do on yourself. 

The second reason is that I inevitably seem to end up explaining what these terms mean and who the people I'm talking about are.  It highlights just how amazingly diverse this community is.  Many people see it as very simple: start out male, make a straight line to female, and be done.  Or:  start out female, make a straight line to male, and be done.  But there are people for whom things are not so simple.  I'm one of them and I've learned to be careful what I say about my own life in trabs* spaces because I often get raked over the coals for it.  And even between transmen and transwomen there are huge misunderstandings.  In a leadership course for trans* people, I once ended up having to explain to most of the transmasculine participants that transwomen are not all sex workers.  Even trans* people need to learn about trans* people to avoid that stuff.  My quest to wrap my own mind around crossdressing is an example of me needing to learn things.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
And, for the record I have only hugged two people in the last 3 months lol, so no I have not hugged another trans* person today (or ever for that matter), I am just not too into hugging people unless I know them really well. Which does make me sound really prudish but I am who I am I guess.

That I can handle....at least until some self identified Autogyniphillic tries and tell me that I am deluded and that I don't really have a female gender identity, but some bizarre fetish and in denial. I don't handle it too well when people try and push their ideas onto me, and will react in a negative manner, but outside of that I can be nice.

Well, see, that's an example of them not respecting you.  And like I said, respect is a two way street.  So don't diss them back because that only increases the amount of nastiness in the world.  Just turn around and walk away. 

Thank you, Phoenix, for posting this encouragement for each of us to become more compassionate towards each other.  This is always a good thing, and yet we do (myself very much included) need reminding of this every now & then because we all suffer from the very human condition of finding it easier to see our differences rather than our similarities.

This striving for a more compassionate unity to replace a defensively judgemental disunity is as essential for me as every other aspect of how I deal with being trans*.  I have spent most of my life engaging in intensely hardened, defensively judgemental disunity against myself.  I am, and always have been, my own worst critic.  I find myself in serious need of experiencing the company of some people who are prepared to refrain from judging me negatively and who are willing to treat me with more compassion than I am capable of giving to myself. 

Part of why I go to the TG meeting at the William Way Centre most Thursdays is to meet some trans folk who are FtM, IS, GQ, etc. instead of just getting an MtF perspective.  I find I get a stronger sense of the many different interpretations of gender when attending those meetings.  Similar to Hikari, there are some from whom I recoil, and I realise that (for me) the primary motivator for such a reaction is a gnawing fear that they are too similar to me for my comfort.  My experience is that such encounters offer me the opportunity to find some tolerance & compassion for my own self by first finding that same tolerance & compassion for someone else.

I liked this:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 16, 2014, 06:38:51 PM
Changing the world doesn't require heroism.  It only requires being kind.

It sounds simple, but it is not always easy.

So what the many "characters" that comprise the LGBT have in common? Only one, they are all discriminated. In other words what we have in common is a common enemy! And so our "unity," our alliance is predicated in the commonalty of our enemy.

So, what would happen to the T group of the "union" when the LGB have achieve their liberation via legislation (which they are close to achieve)?

Would we be able to "stand" in our two feet and fight for our rights without the big brother (LGB) help? I think yes, but it will take a bit longer and is going to be painful because we have not learned to fight independently. 

I think prudence dictate that we start becoming a little bit more independent of the LGB. After all, our needs have always come second to the LGB ones. It is time to dictate our own agenda!

Quote from: peky on February 20, 2014, 06:25:59 PM
So what the many "characters" that comprise the LGBT have in common? Only one, they are all discriminated. In other words what we have in common is a common enemy! And so our "unity," our alliance is predicated in the commonalty of our enemy.

So, what would happen to the T group of the "union" when the LGB have achieve their liberation via legislation (which they are close to achieve)?

Would we be able to "stand" in our two feet and fight for our rights without the big brother (LGB) help? I think yes, but it will take a bit longer and is going to be painful because we have not learned to fight independently. 

I think prudence dictate that we start becoming a little bit more independent of the LGB. After all, our needs have always come second to the LGB ones. It is time to dictate our own agenda!

I only disagree in one way:  I think it is far past time for folks on the T spectrum to control our own agenda.  Note that I'm talking about T unity, not LGBT unity.

I agree that the LGB folks are unlikely to suddenly start caring about T issues.  The issues are really completely different in any case, and it is human nature to stop caring once you get what you want.  Likewise, it's a lot easier to compromise on someone else's rights.  I've learned that one the hard way.  It's not evil.  It's just human. 

I also think T folks can (and should) stand up on their own.  But there are far fewer T folk than LGB folk.  And that means we cannot afford to waste our energy fighting each other.  We really, really need to focus on fighting for the goals we want to achieve.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 20, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
I only disagree in one way:  I think it is far past time for folks on the T spectrum to control our own agenda.  Note that I'm talking about T unity, not LGBT unity.

I agree that the LGB folks are unlikely to suddenly start caring about T issues.  The issues are really completely different in any case, and it is human nature to stop caring once you get what you want.  Likewise, it's a lot easier to compromise on someone else's rights.  I've learned that one the hard way.  It's not evil.  It's just human. 

I also think T folks can (and should) stand up on their own.  But there are far fewer T folk than LGB folk.  And that means we cannot afford to waste our energy fighting each other.  We really, really need to focus on fighting for the goals we want to achieve.

Well, it seem to me that the 'fights" you are alluding in your posts are mainly among representatives of different trans-supportive organizations in Maryland...

Here in Susan's we sometimes have threads where the "holly-than-thou transsexual" vs "the rest-of-you" flares up. However, Susan's has made plenty clear that this is an umbrella site for all transgender... so I really do not see where you are going with these threads? True that there are a few Marylanders here, but the rest of us, we really do not have dog in the Maryland trans-political wars

Quote from: peky on February 20, 2014, 07:40:29 PM
Well, it seem to me that the 'fights" you are alluding in your posts are mainly among representatives of different trans-supportive organizations in Maryland...

Here in Susan's we sometimes have threads where the "holly-than-thou transsexual" vs "the rest-of-you" flares up. However, Susan's has made plenty clear that this is an umbrella site for all transgender... so I really do not see where you are going with these threads? True that there are a few Marylanders here, but the rest of us, we really do not have dog in the Maryland trans-political wars

It's political season and I tend to be involved in the politics, so that is certainly what is on my mind right at the moment.  But I would say that the "holier-than-thou" ones are more what this particular speech was about and what I meant to discuss in this particular thread.  I tend to definitely be "the rest-of-you" and I'm a pretty popular target for that. 

These days the usual critique is that I'm too much like a ciswoman and I am too conforming to binary female gender expectations.  Some see me as a sellout for that.  Probably my favorite was the person who sent me a hateful email accusing me of being "trans-cis."  I don't even know what that means.  It sounds like a contradiction in terms. 

But I'm far from being the only target of this.  There are the holier-than-thou threads that you mention.  I can't count the number of times that genderqueer persons have been described as people who just want to make "the rest of us" look bad.  I could go on and on.  But the point is that as a community we seem to have a distressing habit of barricading ourselves into small cells and excluding others from them. 

I'd like to see us do better than that.  After all, all trans* spectrum identities deal with similar issues.  And making it through in this world is hard for all of us for similar reasons.  So whether it is political activism, or coping with discrimination, or dealing with unsupportive churches, or just dealing with the minute details of day-to-day life, why can't we help one another make it through the days? 

That's basically where I'm going.  I'd just like to see people support one another. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 20, 2014, 08:39:18 PM

That's basically where I'm going.  I'd just like to see people support one another.

That's what I'm about and all I'm here for, it's my mission statement to offer support to others at Susan's. Other than that I've heard all the same stuff over and over, it's like living "Groundhog Day," and it can become mind numbing as I'm sure the mods will tell you, but we do what we do because on some level we do care for others of our strange ilk.

QuoteAllow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me

I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

Quote from: bingunginter on February 24, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

Please be welcome.  I believe that the trans* community has room for you.

I do not identify with  ->-bleeped-<-.  But I do know what it is like to have a hard time talking about your life and your issues and your experiences without being judged.  As long as we can treat one another with respect, there ought to be no difficulty discussing even wildly controversial topics like  ->-bleeped-<-.  And only when we can do that can we really start to talk honestly with one another.  And once we can really be truly honest, we can start to really support and help one another.

Where I have a hard time feeling unity with others is when those others show bigotry and intolerance.

There are a fair number of people out there who are only for their own kind (however they define it) and ready to throw anyone who isn't "our kind" under the bus, whether to gain some advantage or just for the lulz.  They exist among TGs, too:  I've seen a fair amount of misogyny and homophobia and one-true-way-ism in some on-line MtF groups (I can't speak to FtM groups.)  I've been told I belong in a zoo, based on nothing more than a one-sentence description of my presentation.

While I wouldn't want to throw even these people under the bus, I would not feel safe (or feel that other marginalized people would be safe) giving them any opportunity to double-cross me or people I care about.

We can't include people who refuse to join together.  Unfortunately, there is really no way to force them to come aboard.  But we can build a unified, inclusive, supportive community for all those who want to be a part of it.  And frankly, I think that the people who choose to remain outside of it will, over time, find that they no longer want to be outside. 

Quote from: bingunginter on February 24, 2014, 05:47:13 PM

I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

I truly believe that there are many more MTF trans out there who are afraid to say this (or even let themselves wonder if this could apply to themselves) for fear of the negative judgements.  The AG theory describes a pretty common (and to me, obvious) phenomenon I noticed within the MTF trans community (and to some degree, within myself) long before someone put a name to it and attempted to describe it.  You have nothing to be ashamed of bigunginter. Be proud of the fact that you are standing up and talking about something a lot of people are too scared to talk about.  Eventually we are going to have to talk about this more, and then you find you are not as alone as you feel.

Quote from: retransition on February 28, 2014, 12:11:47 AM
I truly believe that there are many more MTF trans out there who are afraid to say this (or even let themselves wonder if this could apply to themselves) for fear of the negative judgements.  The AG theory describes a pretty common (and to me, obvious) phenomenon I noticed within the MTF trans community (and to some degree, within myself) long before someone put a name to it and attempted to describe it. 

Now you've got me curious.  What phenomenon do you mean? 

Quote from: retransition on February 28, 2014, 12:11:47 AM
You have nothing to be ashamed of bigunginter. Be proud of the fact that you are standing up and talking about something a lot of people are too scared to talk about.  Eventually we are going to have to talk about this more, and then you find you are not as alone as you feel.

It seems like in the old days this was talked about more, although I don't remember a time when it was ever widely embraced as a theory.  But I suspect retransition is right that you would find that there are others for whom the theory fits. 

I also agree that we need to talk about this issue (and others) more.  As with any group, the trans* community seems to have its dogmas.  We'd do better at having honest conversations if we could better embrace challenges to those dogmas. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 28, 2014, 12:26:14 AM
Now you've got me curious.  What phenomenon do you mean? 

It seems like in the old days this was talked about more, although I don't remember a time when it was ever widely embraced as a theory.  But I suspect retransition is right that you would find that there are others for whom the theory fits. 

I also agree that we need to talk about this issue (and others) more.  As with any group, the trans* community seems to have its dogmas.  We'd do better at having honest conversations if we could better embrace challenges to those dogmas.

I just mean that there is obviously much more of a sexual component that drives some people's desire to change their genders than is acknowledged. 

I thought your speech was very nicely written and certainly appropriate for a day like TDOR when we can all stand together without the usual BS.  I also like the fact that you point out that each of us has the opportunity to make things a little bit better through our own words and deeds.  I don't think this has to mean everyone rowing in the same direction or looking to a "leader".  The truth is that, as individuals, we will always have our own beliefs, needs and agendas.  But I think that, rather than looking for others to do something or exclusively blaming others for the difficulties faced by the trans community, taking ownership in some areas where we, as individuals or collectively CAN make a difference is the direction that we need to move in.   The last TDOR I saw too many people tweeting and blogging that the high rate of trans suicide should be viewed as "cisgendered" people's fault (and some even referred to the suicides as cis-inflicted "murder") is irresponsible and a dangerous passing of the buck. 

I guess in the end I will not support someone JUST because they are transgendered.  But at the same time, I will also be mindful of my own experiences dealing with gender identity. I think it is important to not discriminate one way or the other (through favoritism or prejudice).  Trans people should have the opportunity that anyone should - to earn or lose  respect through their actions.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 25, 2014, 09:31:25 AM
We can't include people who refuse to join together.  Unfortunately, there is really no way to force them to come aboard.  But we can build a unified, inclusive, supportive community for all those who want to be a part of it.  And frankly, I think that the people who choose to remain outside of it will, over time, find that they no longer want to be outside.

I heard the same ^^ argument about the "Hispanic" movement... some so called "Hispanics" want nothing to do with the "Hispanic community"   Like wise, some so called transgender do not want anything to do with the so called "transgender community"...

One can ask why ? it seems such a positive thing, win-win situation, right?

Well, in my opinion, I think and feel that by putting yourself into a category (minority) you perpetuate the "victim/victimization" syndrome... like, well I did not get the job because I am Hispanic, or transsexual, or black, or whatever... instead of "I did not get the job because there were other people better qualified than me, period; now get over, and find another job.