Susan's Place Transgender Resources

As of now I am currently just over fourteen months into hormone replacement therapy and just lounging around shirtless as I usually do to cool down after I shower. Before I began growing breasts in about June or July when they began to be noticeable I would go around my house and many places in public as I hung or ran around my town and the trails several miles away. It was perfectly fine and acceptable for me to flaunt my bare chest everywhere. Now that I have breasts it all has changed. I am not allowed to go around bare chested or as many women say topless. It is now weird and awkward for my family, friends and strangers to see my naked chest when it was perfectly fine for most of my life, even when I was fat. When I walk out of my shower into my room my towel is still wrapped around my waist to hide my privates but now I'm told it is awkward or inappropriate for them to be seen. I honestly do not get why, they're breasts, boobs, tits, ta tas, ect. It is my body and there is nothing wrong or inappropriate to see a naked breast. It is disheartening to see breasts over sexualized everywhere I go. The mall is deemed a family friendly place but god forbid a woman breast feeds, you know it's only nice to show them off if you have sexy lingerie on? Quite honestly I believe male privilege is bull->-bleeped-<-. Honestly now that I'm beginning to see the other side of the coin I'm rebelling against it because yes I am a woman but most importantly I am a human being. It is just very interesting to finally be gaining a true perspective that I doubt many people can truly experience.

Well breasts are a secondary sexual charcteristic. I don't see this is as a male privilege issue at all. men can walk around topless because their chests are not a secondary sexual characteristic (even if some men are super hot shirtless!). I don't think anyone really cares anymore if a woman breast feeds, at least where I am from, but there are also family rest rooms for that. The fact is it kinda is inappropriate to not cover up around the house. Yes, you have rights. But if you live with othe people, you have to respect their need for privacy too. That's not the right word, privacy, but you know what I mean. Why not just put on a tank? Also, doesn't it bother you going around braless? I don't like wearing a bra too much but they're so big I have too, or they bounce annoyingly. Plus, bras offer protection from bumps and stuff. It's a much more sensitive area and it hurts when you bump them. I mean if you think this is bad, what happens in the summer when guys start hitting on you? Sometimes I'm self concious about my lack of laser hair removal thus far (though in a week or two I'm getting it as I saved the money) but I used my boobs to take away people's eyes from my face, even if the stares were just what happens to women. Stares. All the time. Everywhere. I'm constantly stared at. Yesterday these construction workers whistled at me and then when I was 10 feet away started laughing anbd said something about tapping that or some junk. What can ya do? The best thing is to find a good guy and a lot of this will end. I was with my ex yesterdy and he just follows me sometimes and just watched me while I took a shower. It's whatever. You're just going to have to deal.

Not everywhere in the world is like this.

For example, when I lived in Germany, it was much less frowned upon. I saw topless women, even really old ones, at beaches, lakes, etc. Public nudity is not as frowned upon, and things related to sex are not as taboo as in the US. It's just like you said. The US culture has overly sexualized breasts, and also made sex a big taboo subject.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 03:24:49 PM
Well breasts are a secondary sexual charcteristic. I don't see this is as a male privilege issue at all. men can walk around topless because their chests are not a secondary sexual characteristic (even if some men are super hot shirtless!). I don't think anyone really cares anymore if a woman breast feeds, at least where I am from, but there are also family rest rooms for that. The fact is it kinda is inappropriate to not cover up around the house. Yes, you have rights. But if you live with othe people, you have to respect their need for privacy too. That's not the right word, privacy, but you know what I mean. Why not just put on a tank? Also, doesn't it bother you going around braless? I don't like wearing a bra too much but they're so big I have too, or they bounce annoyingly. Plus, bras offer protection from bumps and stuff. It's a much more sensitive area and it hurts when you bump them. I mean if you think this is bad, what happens in the summer when guys start hitting on you? Sometimes I'm self concious about my lack of laser hair removal thus far (though in a week or two I'm getting it as I saved the money) but I used my boobs to take away people's eyes from my face, even if the stares were just what happens to women. Stares. All the time. Everywhere. I'm constantly stared at. Yesterday these construction workers whistled at me and then when I was 10 feet away started laughing anbd said something about tapping that or some junk. What can ya do? The best thing is to find a good guy and a lot of this will end. I was with my ex yesterdy and he just follows me sometimes and just watched me while I took a shower. It's whatever. You're just going to have to deal.

I frankly disagree with that. Since I was little I always questioned this and always asked my parents why girls had to wear tops but not boys. All these beliefs and laws regarding womens bodies is a product of centuries of sexism and oppression. From making it illegal for women to go topless to requiring women to completely cover their bodies. If I'm a breast feeding mother I would never want to use a restroom to feed my child, who honestly eats in a bathroom. We frown upon women who wants to feed their babies yet glorify those who flaunt them to attract men. It is a double standard that men can do so much and we do not have such freedom to. I want the legal and societal freedom to go to the beach shirtless as I once did, so that I won't be judged because I don't want to wear make up, that it's ok for me to wear womens or mens clothes, to not worry that some creep thinks its ok sexually assault me, etc. I had all those freedoms as a guy and now as a woman it's different and I'm not going to accept the patriarchies sexism.

Quote from: Riley Skye on March 07, 2014, 03:56:22 PM
I frankly disagree with that. Since I was little I always questioned this and always asked my parents why girls had to wear tops but not boys. All these beliefs and laws regarding womens bodies is a product of centuries of sexism and oppression. From making it illegal for women to go topless to requiring women to completely cover their bodies. If I'm a breast feeding mother I would never want to use a restroom to feed my child, who honestly eats in a bathroom. We frown upon women who wants to feed their babies yet glorify those who flaunt them to attract men. It is a double standard that men can do so much and we do not have such freedom to. I want the legal and societal freedom to go to the beach shirtless as I once did, so that I won't be judged because I don't want to wear make up, that it's ok for me to wear womens or mens clothes, to not worry that some creep thinks its ok sexually assault me, etc. I had all those freedoms as a guy and now as a woman it's different and I'm not going to accept the patriarchies sexism.

So true. Unfortunately that's how society is in certain parts of the world. There was a case in the UK were a bus driver threw a woman off the bus for breastfeeding her baby. Unbelievable!

to be honest, I'd rather not see male or female naked bodies unless it's at a beach or in my bed. You can always go to a nude beach if that's your thing.

I would be surprised if that bus driver still had a job.  That whole extreme sensitivity to bare breasts is a bit of a US thing. Even us straight laced Brits have more or less got over it. Anyhow Riley, you are right, the double standards are absolute nonsense. I don't understand why there is any objection based on boobs being a secondary sex characteristic. If that were justified then every bearded man should be arrested for daring to flaunt his moustaches in public.

Rosie

While I agree with your annoyance and disquiet over this form of body segregation it is unfortunately the social by-product of centuries worth of sexual repression. The public (or even limited private) display of breasts (or to be more precise, the post-puberty female nipples) has many taboos and restrictions plastered all over them in most developed parts of the world. Even flat chested women and teen girls are  expected to keep their nipples covered. In some countries like Australia it's OK to go top free on many beaches, but stray off the beach and all hell breaks loose. It's more tolerated in many European countries because they have fewer sexual taboos, where even full public nudity is considered OK.

Having or not having breasts shouldn't make a difference but it does, it's all part of the female body being sanctioned, objectified and sexualised by society.

Sadly, our culture in the US has yet to evolve enough to have shed the vestiges of Victorian-era sexism and repression.  Some of us are there already, but it's going to take time for the regressives to catch up.

I wasn't the kind of person who went around shirtless as a boy so I don't have the bare chest around the house issue, but I do wrap my towel around my waist at the gym and at least among my circles that's a relatively accepted feminist gesture. I also totally hate bras and only wear them on dates and when doing physical activity.

Also, I want to say that I'm really happy to see feminist transwomen on this board. I haven't interacted with many IRL.

personally I'd find it pretty annoying to go to a shopping mall and deal with a lot of naked people for the sake of liberation.

Whether you agree or disagree simply does not matter. it isn't going to change. And Europe isn't any more progressive, they just have nude beaches. If you want to go topless, go to Sandy Hook, in North Central NJ. It's a nudist beach. The fact is we live in a society with laws, those laws are decided by votes, and if you can get enough votes, start a ballot iniative. But I refuse to belive this is a gender issue. Why do you think women freak if a man walks into a women's restroom or clothing area. it's because most women don't want guys seeing their breasts and body. Me included. This has nothing to do with centuries of patriarchy. Women have covered up since time immemorial. The other thing is this: who buys bras? Women. Who buys push up bras to create cleavage? Women. Who uses breasts as a way to entice men. Me, a woman. See, you just developed boobs. I developed when i was 11-12. My the time I was 16 or so I was a 36B. My thighs are also very femme. This is all without HRT. I had a point but I forget. Oh yeah, given time, you may change your tune. You may not. IDK. I see your point and you make a good arguemnt but really, no one wants to see anyone topless, man or woman. Unless that man is super hot. And society didn't sexualize boobs. They are a symbol of femininity. They are sexual by nature.

The other thing is, your training for Tough Mudder or something so I assume your very strong. So it's easy for you to say this because you could fight off an attacker. I'm 5'5 and 120 lbs and most women could beat me up. You might be singing a different tune if you were as vulnerable as I am. But I mean, yeah, of course you're entitled to your opinion but I would place money on the fact that the majority of women do not want to go topless or see another woman topless unless it's at the beach. That's just my opinion but I can see this devolving really fast so I'm out of this topic. The last thing Ill say is that breasts aren't sexual to me at all. they just are. I mean should men be allowed to walk around with their penis swaying about. They sway right? I never understood how someone would could and even want a big penis swinging around. Eww. On the other hand, I could go for a posicle. I prefer mine with a little salt lol

But IDK, I'm obviously in the minority on this board, surprise, surprise. But I don't have one female friend who would agree with this and I have lots of female friends. So, you can say it's oppression but i'm getting this weird vibe now and the constant talk of boobs on this board really grosses me out. But this my opinion and I feel I am entitled to it.

I just wonder how many want men walking around with their penises swaying about. if women should be allowed topless then it's only fair for me to see some penis.

Why do you even wanna walk around with your tits out everywhere anyway?

Boobs are sexy anyways, that's a fact.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 04:28:39 PM
Whether you agree or disagree simply does not matter. it isn't going to change. And Europe isn't any more progressive, they just have nude beaches. If you want to go topless, go to Sandy Hook, in North Central NJ. It's a nudist beach. The fact is we live in a society with laws, those laws are decided by votes, and if you can get enough votes, start a ballot iniative. But I refuse to belive this is a gender issue. Why do you think women freak if a man walks into a women's restroom or clothing area. it's because most women don't want guys seeing their breasts and body. Me included. This has nothing to do with centuries of patriarchy. Women have covered up since time immemorial. The other thing is this: who buys bras? Women. Who buys push up bras to create cleavage? Women. Who uses breasts as a way to entice men. Me, a woman. See, you just developed boobs. I developed when i was 11-12. My the time I was 16 or so I was a 36B. My thighs are also very femme. This is all without HRT. I had a point but I forget. Oh yeah, given time, you may change your tune. You may not. IDK. I see your point and you make a good arguemnt but really, no one wants to see anyone topless, man or woman. Unless that man is super hot. And society didn't sexualize boobs. They are a symbol of femininity. They are sexual by nature.

The other thing is, your training for Tough Mudder or something so I assume your very strong. So it's easy for you to say this because you could fight off an attacker. I'm 5'5 and 120 lbs and most women could beat me up. You might be singing a different tune if you were as vulnerable as I am. But I mean, yeah, of course you're entitled to your opinion but I would place money on the fact that the majority of women do not want to go topless or see another woman topless unless it's at the beach. That's just my opinion but I can see this devolving really fast so I'm out of this topic. The last thing Ill say is that breasts aren't sexual to me at all. they just are. I mean should men be allowed to walk around with their penis swaying about. They sway right? I never understood how someone would could and even want a big penis swinging around. Eww. On the other hand, I could go for a posicle. I prefer mine with a little salt lol

But IDK, I'm obviously in the minority on this board, surprise, surprise. But I don't have one female friend who would agree with this and I have lots of female friends. So, you can say it's oppression but i'm getting this weird vibe now and the constant talk of boobs on this board really grosses me out. But this my opinion and I feel I am entitled to it.

I just wonder how many want men walking around with their penises swaying about. if women should be allowed topless then it's only fair for me to see some penis.

Joanna I totally agree. I live in a downtown area and see a lot of very hot college students , men and woman , but I sure don't want them running around downtown naked. just my opinion

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 04:28:39 PM
I just wonder how many want men walking around with their penises swaying about. if women should be allowed topless then it's only fair for me to see some penis.

I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.

As a side note it has generally been agrarian societies that developed the taboo around breasts, for hunter-gatherer societies the breasts weren't seen as anything out of the ordinary and were usually never covered unless the climate called for it.

Personally I don't have a problem with the human body, have been nude in a multitude of situations where there were many, many nude people, and it was all non-sexual. But I agree it's all about context. I wouldn't go shopping at the local mall naked or topless and really would rather no one else did too.

Before I started on HRT I couldn't understand why women were so protective of their breasts. Sure I knew a large number of men would be oglers and perves but the need to cover up wasn't clicking for me. Now that I have my own breasts I do understand; I feel very protective of them, no dude is going to see them unless I want him to.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 04:28:39 PM
This has nothing to do with centuries of patriarchy. Women have covered up since time immemorial.

This is simply and factually inaccurate. I work with indigenous groups in Southeast Asia and there's a crapload of evidence that women did not cover up in these and many other areas (Latin America, Africa, etc.) prior to colonial contact. If you're going to make that kind of unequivocal statement at least do some basic research.

my personal standard of decency is that neither men nor women should be going around topless. The only time I feel it is acceptable for men is swimming and/or on the beach; then again I feel wearing a two piece bikini is basically being topless anyway since you are only covering like 5% above your waist.

That being said, it isn't a very strong opinion of mine, if people go around topless or even naked, it really isn't that big of a deal to me, but you won't see me doing it.

Quote from: Hikari on March 07, 2014, 04:51:41 PM
my personal standard of decency is that neither men nor women should be going around topless. The only time I feel it is acceptable for men is swimming and/or on the beach; then again I feel wearing a two piece bikini is basically being topless anyway since you are only covering like 5% above your waist.

That being said, it isn't a very strong opinion of mine, if people go around topless or even naked, it really isn't that big of a deal to me, but you won't see me doing it.

Have you seen Dave Navarro lately?  He should be required to be shirtless at all times.  LOL

Quote from: Jill F on March 07, 2014, 04:59:39 PM
Have you seen Dave Navarro lately?  He should be required to be shirtless at all times.  LOL

lol eww, I like girls so I don't have any interest in being subjected to that.... But that gets me thinking, maybe because I have no attraction to those shirtless men it is much easier for me to say they should wear shirts too.

Quote from: Hikari on March 07, 2014, 05:04:23 PM
lol eww, I like girls so I don't have any interest in being subjected to that.... But that gets me thinking, maybe because I have no attraction to those shirtless men it is much easier for me to say they should wear shirts too.

not necessarily , there's a time and place to see a naked body and also whether it's a chosen pleasure or just involuntarily thrust upon your consciousness .

Quote from: mandonlym on March 07, 2014, 04:50:40 PM
This is simply and factually inaccurate. I work with indigenous groups in Southeast Asia and there's a crapload of evidence that women did not cover up in these and many other areas (Latin America, Africa, etc.) prior to colonial contact. If you're going to make that kind of unequivocal statement at least do some basic research.

Okay, I'm back in. Please cite. A crapload of evidence isn't exactly scientific. But, I'll start: here's just a basic Google search that proves the bra is at least 600 years old. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/ancient-bra-middle-ages-austria_n_1683029.html

I realize different cultures have different norms but isolated small groups of humans don't prove anything. But why can't I just have an opinion without having to prove things. But, that's the last ill say. I believe 600 years of the bra, proves my statement that it is more than a couple centuries of patriarchy. And I'm def not getting into the colonial argument. I have very serious first world problems. I 'm on foodstamps, have an obamaphone, can't even afford laser, I',m intersex (which guess what isn't as fun as it sounds when I was three I wasn't allowed to move or my hips would break, literally). So I simply don't care.

But I have no need to be in this argument so I would appreicate it if I am just left out and you forget anything I have said. I simply think you shouldn't walk around naked...unless men can too. I wanna see some penises lol

I realize I'm being a bitch but I just lost the love of my life and am isolated in a tiny little room and never talk to anyone. Okay, I did hang out with him for the days this week but its left me even more torn up inside. So maybe a little compassion could go a long way and just let me make inaccurate statements. Who cares? I've been pretty open about this but if you didn't know I apologize but please take that into consideration. I won't delete my posts cause that messes up the thread but...that's it. Thanks.

Hi Joanna,

Sorry about your love loss. Been there.

Hugs,
Kim

Really sorry to hear about your love troubles. I somehow missed the fact that you're having a hard time right now. Big hugs from here.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 03:24:49 PM
Well breasts are a secondary sexual charcteristic. I don't see this is as a male privilege issue at all. men can walk around topless because their chests are not a secondary sexual characteristic

beards are a secondary sex characteristic.  Are you suggesting that men should wear veils?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 05:42:40 PM
Okay, I'm back in. Please cite. A crapload of evidence isn't exactly scientific. But, I'll start: here's just a basic Google search that proves the bra is at least 600 years old. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/ancient-bra-middle-ages-austria_n_1683029.html

I realize different cultures have different norms but isolated small groups of humans don't prove anything. But why can't I just have an opinion without having to prove things. But, that's the last ill say. I believe 600 years of the bra, proves my statement that it is more than a couple centuries of patriarchy.

Recognizable humans have been around for 2.2 million years. Modern homo sapiens has been around for about 250,000 years. Compared to this, 600 years is nothing.

DELETED. But thanks mandolym and Kim.

I will be gone from this site for awhile, maybe forever, but to the people that were really nice, I love you. Even though I may have never met you, I love you and I hope you can understand that love know no bounds through cyberspace or even death. To the bullies on this site, congratulations, I am gone. You win. I'm a sensitive person and I don't need this macho argumentative bullying. If I wanted that I'd go back to HS. That's about as mean as I get. I loved this site but I don't need this. I may be broken hearted but I'll find another BF and I will still be me. the bullies here will always be that: mean spirited, hateful corrosive bullies. I won't delete my account cause maybe i'll change my mind. But really, who needs this crap? Almost every long-term MTF who had something to offer was run off in the last couple months. So congrats, some of you ruined what was a beautiful thing. How sad?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 11:10:59 PM
Thanks Kim and mandolym. But, to Oriah and ath, what part of please leave me alone I'm broken hearted and BREAKING DOWN was hard to understand. yes, your allowed to say whatever. But last time I checked this was a support site and I politely asked to just forget what i said. I DONT CARE. The outright bullying on this site is unbelievable. No wonder all the good posters are being run off. Well, I've been on HRT for awhile and have a lot to offer, but maybe I'll just leave. I could say more, but i'm not a bully and get no joy in hurting the knocked down and broken people. BYE

Whoa calm down, it's my fault for not reading your entire post. I saw the first bit with the link and just responded to that.

I was stating a fact, not trying to mock or insult you. I'm sorry for getting you upset.

I shall convene the Council of Bullies and discuss discontinuing our evil plot to drive off all of the long term users of the site. (lol)

I've never felt or wanted to walk around with out a shirt on (still looking like a guy here) - I never understand why guys think they should anyway...

Honestly the whole reason we invented clothing was to protect our bodies from the elements ect. That being said I think there are areas were it is fine to be in your birthday suit and there are areas that it shouldn't. I also don't think guys should be topless unless they are at the beach or in private - honestly I can't stand guys who do it even if they are well fit just to show off.  ::)

As for being topless in front of your family - just think of it this way being sympathetic towards there feelings, would you like to see your mom walking around topless or your dad walking around with out pants?

The only thing I can say about mothers breast feeding in public is they gotta do what they gotta do to keep their little one happy and feed - but this doesn't mean the shouldn't try to cover up if they do it in public as I said before to think of others feelings and try not to cause discomfort to others.

Quote from: Aina on March 08, 2014, 12:26:28 AM
The only thing I can say about mothers breast feeding in public is they gotta do what they gotta do to keep their little one happy and feed - but this doesn't mean the shouldn't try to cover up if they do it in public as I said before to think of others feelings and try not to cause discomfort to others.

It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 07:55:04 AM
It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

It's unfortunate that we get up in arms over breast feeding yet do nothing about all the lingerie ads in malls. Honestly I think breast feeding is beautiful and I've never had a problem with it at all honestly.

Quote from: Riley Skye on March 08, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
It's unfortunate that we get up in arms over breast feeding yet do nothing about all the lingerie ads in malls. Honestly I think breast feeding is beautiful and I've never had a problem with it at all honestly.

Where do you live Riley? I wanna hang out with you. :)

According to my profile Long Island NY lol. I've always been a feminist, even before I knew what that and sexism was. I actually always hated Disney Princesses when I was a kid and questioned a lot of gender norms until I began being bullied.

Well if you're up for making it into Manhattan next weekend we can *totally* hang out. Wanna take a trip to Sephora or the Barney's makeup counter? :) Feminists can wear lip gloss too!

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 11:10:59 PM
DELETED. But thanks mandolym and Kim.

I will be gone from this site for awhile, maybe forever, but to the people that were really nice, I love you. Even though I may have never met you, I love you and I hope you can understand that love know no bounds through cyberspace or even death. To the bullies on this site, congratulations, I am gone. You win. I'm a sensitive person and I don't need this macho argumentative bullying. If I wanted that I'd go back to HS. That's about as mean as I get. I loved this site but I don't need this. I may be broken hearted but I'll find another BF and I will still be me. the bullies here will always be that: mean spirited, hateful corrosive bullies. I won't delete my account cause maybe i'll change my mind. But really, who needs this crap? Almost every long-term MTF who had something to offer was run off in the last couple months. So congrats, some of you ruined what was a beautiful thing. How sad?

well, Joanna I hope you come back. As far as I'm aware everyone has the right to their own opinion unless you live in the society that George Orwell wrote about in 1984. Sorry to see you leave you had a unique  approach to your critique. Hurry back

Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 07:55:04 AM
It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

I don't disagree. I am fine with it, but others might not be and well that is life. Honestly "I" would cover up but again I am rather modest about showing off my body so...yeah each to there own.

 As far as I've ever seen woman are pretty careful about not having other people view what their doing. For me though there is a major difference between feed a human child and walking in a public street flaunting the naked surface area of your body. It's true most of human existence has been in the naked form , but sensibilities have changed the past few thousand years. If you want to burn your bras  and take your tops off and walk down the avenue it's your choice . You have the right at least in some countries to vote to change the laws on public decency .

I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.

Quote from: Ms Grace on March 07, 2014, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 04:28:39 PM
I just wonder how many want men walking around with their penises swaying about. if women should be allowed topless then it's only fair for me to see some penis.

I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.

At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 11:32:57 AM
I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.
I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.


At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

I think your point of view is quite correct

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 11:32:57 AM
I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.
I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.


At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

I can definitely see that because they are the biggest hallmarks of physical sex and gender for cis people. I do understand covering up you body but I just never saw the reason why we have such adversity to nudity. I myself am guilty of it because how I've been raised. I wouldn't feel comfortable around naked people and tbh I have no real clue why.

It's upbringing. It's not that I prefer being nude but I have no qualms about being naked anywhere.

On a side note - a bit of an artist pet peeve.

We never want to be naked, naked is vulgar and vulnerable we want to be nude, nude is beautiful and artistic!  :laugh:

Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 12:30:26 PM
It's upbringing. It's not that I prefer being nude but I have no qualms about being naked anywhere.

well, the hippie revolution espoused nature freedom in all its beauty.