Community Conversation => Transgender talk => Topic started by: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 08:31:59 AM Return to Full Version
Title: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 08:31:59 AM
Post by: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 08:31:59 AM
From my own personal observation I'd say upwards of 90% of all transgender persons live in the closet to one degree or another. I don't know one crossdresser who is out to the world. Many of my transsexual friends are still struggling with coming out.
What I've seen in all of those who aren't open to the world is they have a level of shame or embarassment about being TG (no different than what I struggled with). No doubt this stems from their upbringing that taught them the negative stigma society believes to be true about us. Obviously, in order for that stigma to be erased, society needs to be educated.
So how can this education become a reality?
The first step has to begin from within. We need to drop our shame, no matter how small. We need to accept ourselves for who we are and know we are just normal everyday people with an extraordinary challenge. We can't teach anyone our reality if deep inside we are ashamed or embarassed about being TG. They will see it in a moment and at that point we will have lost the battle.
I've read some pretty encouraging statistics and facts recently that indicate society is coming around regarding their acceptance of TG persons. The AMA dropped their discrimination against us and encouraged insurance companies to do the same. We have buying power that is staggering ($464,000,000,000 a year is one estimate!) State laws are being adopted to protect us from discrimination and the HRC will no longer support a bill for GLB persons that doesn't include TGs. Society is getting the message we aren't going away and they'll just have to accept us. Finally!
With all this it seems now is a great time for to do whatever we can to further this trend. I now find myself believing that I will see a very tolerable acceptance of TGs in my lifetime, something I previously thought would never happen.
But what about the shame we carry? What about the insecurity we feel because we are TG? What about our own lack of self-acceptance? How do we change that? Are we really putting any effort into that? Only when we change from within can we convince the world we are just everyday people.
Julie
What I've seen in all of those who aren't open to the world is they have a level of shame or embarassment about being TG (no different than what I struggled with). No doubt this stems from their upbringing that taught them the negative stigma society believes to be true about us. Obviously, in order for that stigma to be erased, society needs to be educated.
So how can this education become a reality?
The first step has to begin from within. We need to drop our shame, no matter how small. We need to accept ourselves for who we are and know we are just normal everyday people with an extraordinary challenge. We can't teach anyone our reality if deep inside we are ashamed or embarassed about being TG. They will see it in a moment and at that point we will have lost the battle.
I've read some pretty encouraging statistics and facts recently that indicate society is coming around regarding their acceptance of TG persons. The AMA dropped their discrimination against us and encouraged insurance companies to do the same. We have buying power that is staggering ($464,000,000,000 a year is one estimate!) State laws are being adopted to protect us from discrimination and the HRC will no longer support a bill for GLB persons that doesn't include TGs. Society is getting the message we aren't going away and they'll just have to accept us. Finally!
With all this it seems now is a great time for to do whatever we can to further this trend. I now find myself believing that I will see a very tolerable acceptance of TGs in my lifetime, something I previously thought would never happen.
But what about the shame we carry? What about the insecurity we feel because we are TG? What about our own lack of self-acceptance? How do we change that? Are we really putting any effort into that? Only when we change from within can we convince the world we are just everyday people.
Julie
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: louise000 on July 15, 2007, 08:45:25 AM
Post by: louise000 on July 15, 2007, 08:45:25 AM
Hi Julie, Guilt and shame have been my constant companions most of my life as I have struggled to my secret life to myself. The thought of others finding out that I've always wanted to be female and that from time to time I've dressed and even gone (after dark) out wearing womens clothes has been unbearable. Many times when I've thought I'd been discovered or seen by someone I knew I've suffered terrible pangs of fear and shame.
But attitudes are changing and although being trans-whatever may never be acceptable in my lifetime (I'm officially old apparently!), I'm sure that one day it will be and all those younger people posting on here will benefit.
Remember that before the 1960s there was great shame attached to couples living together outside marriage and here in Britain homosexuality was a criminal offence. Nowadays it is quite acceptable to co-habit with your partner, indeed it's the done thing to live together before considering marriage. Likewise gay people are for the most part accepted and we even have "gay marriages".
So things are moving in the right direction and hopefully there will be greater tolerance for folks like us in the future.
Best wishes, Louise
But attitudes are changing and although being trans-whatever may never be acceptable in my lifetime (I'm officially old apparently!), I'm sure that one day it will be and all those younger people posting on here will benefit.
Remember that before the 1960s there was great shame attached to couples living together outside marriage and here in Britain homosexuality was a criminal offence. Nowadays it is quite acceptable to co-habit with your partner, indeed it's the done thing to live together before considering marriage. Likewise gay people are for the most part accepted and we even have "gay marriages".
So things are moving in the right direction and hopefully there will be greater tolerance for folks like us in the future.
Best wishes, Louise
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Buffy on July 15, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Post by: Buffy on July 15, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Julie,
I agree with everything you say in your post.
There is a great deal of negativity amongst the community and at times a fatalistic approach that leads to transition to survive, rather than transition to live a full life mentality. I know that I had that approach when I transitioned, almost welcoming the thought of living a life as a recluse, not having to share my life with an unaccepting society and hurtful people.
Part of the reason is the still (negative) portrayal and general unnaceptance of Transsexuals in society and wether we like it or not changing gender is something that the majority of people cannot understand. My Physchiatrist described what I wanted to do as one of the few last taboo's in society.
Education is part of that process for sure, it also requires the world to see that people can go onto lead succesful lives after transition, integrate into society and have "normal lives". Here the stealth issue will raise its head again as like me, I know many people who are successful in life, business but choose not to disclosure their past voluntary.
That is truly the catch 22 and until society is more open, more willing to accept (without judging or discrimination) then the stigma of being TS will continue to force those that can, to avoid disclosure.
But the World has changed, become more TG friendly. The law now affords greater protection and small but significant changes are coming in across the World especially in Europe. Over the years acceptance of many minority groups has improved dramatically (Gays, Lesbians) and we all live in hope that that acceptance and understanding will become ours one day.
Buffy
I agree with everything you say in your post.
There is a great deal of negativity amongst the community and at times a fatalistic approach that leads to transition to survive, rather than transition to live a full life mentality. I know that I had that approach when I transitioned, almost welcoming the thought of living a life as a recluse, not having to share my life with an unaccepting society and hurtful people.
Part of the reason is the still (negative) portrayal and general unnaceptance of Transsexuals in society and wether we like it or not changing gender is something that the majority of people cannot understand. My Physchiatrist described what I wanted to do as one of the few last taboo's in society.
Education is part of that process for sure, it also requires the world to see that people can go onto lead succesful lives after transition, integrate into society and have "normal lives". Here the stealth issue will raise its head again as like me, I know many people who are successful in life, business but choose not to disclosure their past voluntary.
That is truly the catch 22 and until society is more open, more willing to accept (without judging or discrimination) then the stigma of being TS will continue to force those that can, to avoid disclosure.
But the World has changed, become more TG friendly. The law now affords greater protection and small but significant changes are coming in across the World especially in Europe. Over the years acceptance of many minority groups has improved dramatically (Gays, Lesbians) and we all live in hope that that acceptance and understanding will become ours one day.
Buffy
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: HelenW on July 15, 2007, 09:09:36 AM
Post by: HelenW on July 15, 2007, 09:09:36 AM
I struggle with this almost daily. I get messages all the time, every day, from the people around me that what I'm doing is something to be hidden, something that isn't talked about and something whose exposure to daylight would be the worst thing in the world.
It's difficult, to say the least, to maintain my integrity and my sense of self worth in such an environment.
Even though I privately have moments when my resistance is down, I continue to publicly insist that what I am doing is not wrong, not shameful and therefore will not allow it be swept under the rug. The pressure to "just this once" deny my own reality is quite intense, it saps the strength, and I cannot succumb to it knowing that "this once" will be repeated over and over again should I waver. I know that giving in would be a tacit agreement with the sense of shame that people are still trying to infect me with.
And that, I believe, is the first step in educating the world about us. We need to show that we are NOT ashamed, NOT evil and will NOT allow ourselves to be marginalized by those who would deny us our true identities. Even if we don't quite feel that way inside. This would go a long way towards the world's accepting us as valid human beings deserving of respect.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
It's difficult, to say the least, to maintain my integrity and my sense of self worth in such an environment.
Even though I privately have moments when my resistance is down, I continue to publicly insist that what I am doing is not wrong, not shameful and therefore will not allow it be swept under the rug. The pressure to "just this once" deny my own reality is quite intense, it saps the strength, and I cannot succumb to it knowing that "this once" will be repeated over and over again should I waver. I know that giving in would be a tacit agreement with the sense of shame that people are still trying to infect me with.
And that, I believe, is the first step in educating the world about us. We need to show that we are NOT ashamed, NOT evil and will NOT allow ourselves to be marginalized by those who would deny us our true identities. Even if we don't quite feel that way inside. This would go a long way towards the world's accepting us as valid human beings deserving of respect.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Kimberly on July 15, 2007, 10:41:46 AM
Post by: Kimberly on July 15, 2007, 10:41:46 AM
I am sorry...
For me, I feel no shame in what I am nor what I am doing. I would suppose this is largely because I have largely ignored what society wants to the greatest extent that I was capable of. I was a male with long hair for instance, not the socially acceptable option. ... You must realise that you must live your life for you, and that there is no shame in being who you are. ... *checks where this is, finds that she can't say what she was going to to exemplify the fear she is about to mention*; There are aspects of myself that I am fearful of mentioning for the slightly silly behavior of humanity as at large, but I do not mention these parts now not because I am ashamed of them (I am joyful of them on the contrary), but I am afraid of roundabout retribution as the pages in this section are pulled into the search engines. But I am NOT ashamed of them, nor my transsexual state. It does blinking hurt when people turn away only because of that, but I can not dictate their lives to them. They must live as they see fit and best, just as you and I must.
The key point I am trying to make is that you are the one whom is ashamed; They do not force you to be, proof positive for all that I am I am NOT ashamed of what I am; nor what I like. .... You do not have to be, an for that matter you probably should not be. I would suppose that you must realize that what you are and what you are doing is about as humanly natural as can be. An perhaps that you need not be ashamed because they are ashamed and do not understand. An they are only ashamed by and large because they do not understand the situation. (Which really I find kind of odd, presuming the majority of people have a cursory knowledge of biology and the variance there of)
I am unsure if my words are of any help so I will close with one last thought:
Please do not feel ashamed because they tell you to be ashamed; They do not understand, they do not know. Their ignorance does not make them correct; This condition is NOT a shameful one, nothing about it is. NOTHING.
With warm wishes...
For me, I feel no shame in what I am nor what I am doing. I would suppose this is largely because I have largely ignored what society wants to the greatest extent that I was capable of. I was a male with long hair for instance, not the socially acceptable option. ... You must realise that you must live your life for you, and that there is no shame in being who you are. ... *checks where this is, finds that she can't say what she was going to to exemplify the fear she is about to mention*; There are aspects of myself that I am fearful of mentioning for the slightly silly behavior of humanity as at large, but I do not mention these parts now not because I am ashamed of them (I am joyful of them on the contrary), but I am afraid of roundabout retribution as the pages in this section are pulled into the search engines. But I am NOT ashamed of them, nor my transsexual state. It does blinking hurt when people turn away only because of that, but I can not dictate their lives to them. They must live as they see fit and best, just as you and I must.
The key point I am trying to make is that you are the one whom is ashamed; They do not force you to be, proof positive for all that I am I am NOT ashamed of what I am; nor what I like. .... You do not have to be, an for that matter you probably should not be. I would suppose that you must realize that what you are and what you are doing is about as humanly natural as can be. An perhaps that you need not be ashamed because they are ashamed and do not understand. An they are only ashamed by and large because they do not understand the situation. (Which really I find kind of odd, presuming the majority of people have a cursory knowledge of biology and the variance there of)
I am unsure if my words are of any help so I will close with one last thought:
Please do not feel ashamed because they tell you to be ashamed; They do not understand, they do not know. Their ignorance does not make them correct; This condition is NOT a shameful one, nothing about it is. NOTHING.
With warm wishes...
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Sandi on July 15, 2007, 01:24:40 PM
Post by: Sandi on July 15, 2007, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Julie MarieFrom my own personal observation I'd say upwards of 90% of all transgender persons live in the closet to one degree or another. I don't know one crossdresser who is out to the world. Many of my transsexual friends are still struggling with coming out.
Coming out is something I did with family, friends and acquaintances (mostly at work). I have no intention of coming out "to the world." Coming out to the world would be counterproductive to living in it as female, but perhaps thats what you actually meant by world.
Quote from: Julie MarieWhat I've seen in all of those who aren't open to the world is they have a level of shame or embarassment about being TG (no different than what I struggled with). No doubt this stems from their upbringing that taught them the negative stigma society believes to be true about us. Obviously, in order for that stigma to be erased, society needs to be educated.
I guess you really do mean the world, but we will have to agree to disagree here I guess. The only way that the world would know that I am transgendered was if I never passed. I thought a lot about that before I came out, because I was one who was convinced that I would never pass (even though those who seen me in gay bars said I would). I have prominent brow ridges and a broad chin. For those who are so masculine that they never, or rarely pass, I don't know what to answer, although I think that that is an extremely small number. I did have a distant aunt who looked quite masculine, and she was often taken for male by people who did not know her. Although she usually dressed in jeans and T I don't think it would have helped if she dressed more in a more feminine fashion.
Anyway I made the decision to start transition. Soon I realized I did pass, although I was often clocked. I was never one to over dress, but I had a tendency to go too heavy with the makeup, and I think—no, I know—it was an erroneous and vain attempt to have my appearance shout female. When I learned that it had the opposite effect, I started using just light eye makeup and a light blush lipstick (because of lack of any cupids bow). I haven't been visibly clocked now for years. That doesn't mean that I haven't been read, but if so, enough doubt remained that I wasn't gawked at, or verbally challenged. A lot of it, I'm sure, had to be my self confidence and comportment.
Quote from: Julie MarieThe first step has to begin from within. We need to drop our shame, no matter how small. We need to accept ourselves for who we are and know we are just normal everyday people with an extraordinary challenge. We can't teach anyone our reality if deep inside we are ashamed or embarassed about being TG. They will see it in a moment and at that point we will have lost the battle.
Very very true. But when we finally accept ourself as transsexual, there should be no shame. Fear yes which is unavoidable, at first, and due to insecurity of facing an unknown. The fear will disappear in time, but there should never be shame. If there is shame on the part of the one coming out, I don't believe that they have totally accepted them self. At least in my case, I could not, would not, transition if I had any shame in what I was doing, or about to do. The shame belong entirely with those in society that do not accept GID.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Kate on July 15, 2007, 03:38:45 PM
Post by: Kate on July 15, 2007, 03:38:45 PM
Quote from: Buffy on July 15, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Education is part of that process for sure, it also requires the world to see that people can go onto lead succesful lives after transition, integrate into society and have "normal lives"...
I think that's the key. I've found that people in general really don't want to be "educated." They're far more worried about their mortgage and cheating husbands than the basics of transgender theory. There's a catch-22 that the more you explain to people, the more it sounds like you're apologizing, the more it begins to look like it's something you *should* explain. Thou doth protest to much...
I tried to "educate" when I came out at work. I talked with 30ish employees, one at a time, to explain my situation. My original speech explained what I was and wasn't, how long I've felt this way, etc. But it quickly became apparent that people really didn't care about all that. They just wanted to know what they needed to know ("how does this affect ME?"), ask how they could help, and to get back to their life. By the time I was done, my page-long speech had been reduced to, "Look, I'm changing my sex and changing my name to Kate, so you'll notice me looking more and more female over the coming months. So how's your laptop working?"
Same with neighbors: for the first few I met, I'd launch into this long speech about TSism, how it's not CDing, etc. But in every case you could just see their eyes glazing over... they just don't CARE about all that. Since then, whenever I bump into someone who doesn't know about Kate yet (but who knew me from before), it's usually a few minutes into talking about the weather when I slip in, "Oh by the way, I'm going by the name Kate now, doin' the whole sex change thing and all." And without exception everyone has said, "Good for you Kate. So, do you think it's going to rain?" And that's the end of it.
I went to a wedding recently where quite a few people knew me from before, but whom I hadn't told about Kate yet. Someone apparently had informed them though, as every single one of them called me Kate when they saw me. And not one person questioned it, not one person seemed uncomfortable or awkward. I *could* have taken the opportunity to "educate" everyone, but it just wasn't necessary. THEY were perfectly content and satisfied, it just wasn't a big deal, and "educating" would have just made it into one.
I don't think society is nearly as intolerant as we fear. Some areas probably, yes, but I haven't seen it personally. I DO think that shame and a persecuted "victim" mentality is rampant within the community however, which often leads to this urge to "educate and inform" as a means to apologize and justify ourselves. I realize that's not going to go over well with many of you, but I swear that the more we turn this into an "agenda," the more we organize and have "pride parades" and make our personal lives a political statement, the more society will get scared and instinctively defend itself against us.
The best education IMHO is to just go about your life, live it well, and realize that "the bigger a deal you make of this, the bigger a deal they'll think it is."
IMHO and all that,
~Kate~
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: asiangurliee on July 15, 2007, 03:43:45 PM
Post by: asiangurliee on July 15, 2007, 03:43:45 PM
Quote from: Kate on July 15, 2007, 03:38:45 PMQuote from: Buffy on July 15, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Education is part of that process for sure, it also requires the world to see that people can go onto lead succesful lives after transition, integrate into society and have "normal lives"...
I think that's the key. I've found that people in general really don't want to be "educated." They're far more worried about their mortgage and cheating husbands than the basics of transgender theory. There's a catch-22 that the more you explain to people, the more it sounds like you're apologizing, the more it begins to look like it's something you *should* explain. Thou doth protest to much...
I tried to "educate" when I came out at work. I talked with 30ish employees, one at a time, to explain my situation. My original speech explained what I was and wasn't, how long I've felt this way, etc. But it quickly became apparent that people really didn't care about all that. They just wanted to know what they needed to know ("how does this affect ME?"), ask how they could help, and to get back to their life. By the time I was done, my page-long speech had been reduced to, "Look, I'm changing my sex and changing my name to Kate, so you'll notice me looking more and more female over the coming months. So how's your laptop working?"
Same with neighbors: for the first few I met, I'd launch into this long speech about TSism, how it's not CDing, etc. But in every case you could just see their eyes glazing over... they just don't CARE about all that. Since then, whenever I bump into someone who doesn't know about Kate yet (but who knew me from before), it's usually a few minutes into talking about the weather when I slip in, "Oh by the way, I'm going by the name Kate now, doin' the whole sex change thing and all." And without exception everyone has said, "Good for you Kate. So, do you think it's going to rain?" And that's the end of it.
I went to a wedding recently where quite a few people knew me from before, but whom I hadn't told about Kate yet. Someone apparently had informed them though, as every single one of them called me Kate when they saw me. And not one person questioned it, not one person seemed uncomfortable or awkward. I *could* have taken the opportunity to "educate" everyone, but it just wasn't necessary. THEY were perfectly content and satisfied, it just wasn't a big deal, and "educating" would have just made it into one.
I don't think society is nearly as intolerant as we fear. Some areas probably, yes, but I haven't seen it personally. I DO think that shame and a persecuted "victim" mentality is rampant within the community however, which often leads to this urge to "educate and inform" as a means to apologize and justify ourselves. I realize that's not going to go over well with many of you, but I swear that the more we turn this into an "agenda," the more we organize and have "pride parades" and make our personal lives a political statement, the more society will get scared and instinctively defend itself against us.
The best education IMHO is to just go about your life, live it well, and realize that "the bigger a deal you make of this, the bigger a deal they'll think it is."
IMHO and all that,
~Kate~
That's hilarious, Kate. Thanks for telling us that. I do , however, believe in pride parade, i think it is important to be political and to create "safe spaces" for trans people to be open about who they are in public and to gain social and legal recognition through activism
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Sandi on July 15, 2007, 04:03:04 PM
Post by: Sandi on July 15, 2007, 04:03:04 PM
Quote from: KateI don't think society is nearly as intolerant as we fear. Some areas probably, yes, but I haven't seen it personally. I DO think that shame and a persecuted "victim" mentality is rampant within the community however, which often leads to this urge to "educate and inform" as a means to apologize and justify ourselves. I realize that's not going to go over well with many of you, but I swear that the more we turn this into an "agenda," the more we organize and have "pride parades" and make our personal lives a political statement, the more society will get scared and instinctively defend itself against us.
Excelent Kate.
If someone asks, I happily answer questions. If not I don't feel comfortable appearing to constantly justify myself. Once we are out at work, friends or whatever, and we tell them that this is who we happily are, we should act like it. That is the kind of attitude that caused a person that knew me most of my adult life to say "I can tell that this is the real you."
Way too often I see people in the community too defensive, and at some seeminly with a chip on their shoulder. Is that going to convince anyone that life is now happier? Of course not. A person I know in Milwaukee (from support group when I used to go) was a beautiful woman, and passed extremely well. Whenever anyone said something the least out of the way, she would blow up. If it was derogatory she would even sometimes threaten a lawsuit. She could always find work, but it's no wonder that she was always loosing jobs, and going from job to job.
Please, if you are happy with transition, live and act like you are: Even if at times you are not. Then people in your life will treat you better too. :)
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Keira on July 15, 2007, 04:42:55 PM
Post by: Keira on July 15, 2007, 04:42:55 PM
I beg to differ that there is no reason to be worried.
I live in Canada, in one of the most liberal cities,
Yet right in front of my home I get treated with homophobic slurs
and sometimes worse, the treat of physical assault....
The bastion of hate is just in front of my
window; they know about my past and somehow, that attacks their manhood.
Yesterday, somebody yelled in a very very angry "I'll f*** you up mother->-bleeped-<-er!!!! Not sure if it was just to frighten me, of something else, but I am very worried!!!! Not sure what to do, except move. The person that said that I don't think lived a the "bastion", there are many "evil friends" hanging out in front of that place, all with the same homophobic/transphobic agenda it seems...
I think that those that don't live that kind of thing are a bit deluded in thinking the world is a happy place where everyone loves you if you love them back. In commerce, at work, and in most settings that may be true, but there are true pockets of hate anywhere and refusing to believe they exist or that a smile will make them go away
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
Post by: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
I started a thread a while back about passing that had a lot of activity and a lot of emotions were stirred. My viewpoint was from the eyes of all transgender persons, not just those who can pass. I was trying to imagine a world where even the very masculinized among us (the term "linebacker" comes to mind) would be able to go out into the world just as they are and not stir even the slightest thought of abnormality. To me that's total acceptance.
I have read many posts from passable TSs where they talk about how they have no problem with transitioning because they pass very well. That's not progress. They have gone from one closet to another but who can blame them? It is certainly far easier than trying to establish an new gender category and get total acceptance for that category so they can say, "I am a transwoman(man)". But that's what I hope for.
I went to have my hair done yesterday. I had the works and it took three hours. During that time I heard the women all around me talk about things like pregnancy (one was pregnant) and other things I will never be able to relate to. I walked in there wanting to be seen as a woman but the conversation made it very clear I'm not a woman.
And in the strictest sense I am not a woman, I am a transwoman, totally and completely. I am different from a woman in many ways, not just physically. There are so many things women experience in their lifetime I will never experience just as there are so many things in my life I will experience as a transwoman that no woman will ever experience. Neither is better, but they are separate and they are different. When women get together to talk they talk about life experiences only women know. When I want to have a talk like that I will always go to a transwoman. No one else will understand.
And this is why I feel transitioning into a new life, living well, etc isn't enough. Not everybody can do that and there's a myriad of reasons why. To me, this subject goes much deeper than society being okay with one's decision to transition. I take it back to our youth and the importance of not only recognizing this in young children but realizing that something needs to be done and following it up with proper treatment. How wonderful would it have been if all of us had begun HRT at puberty because society knew we'd live a hellish life if we were raised in our birth gender? No FFS, no electrolysis, no BA, no dealing with a male bone structure, etc, etc. Only one procedure: GRS.
That's what I am referring to when I say society needs to be educated. Accepting an adult's decision to transition or crossdress isn't enough. And accepting the steps a transitioning person has to take as "that's just the way it is" isn't acceptable either. If you saw the 20/20 special about transgender children you know where I'm coming from. Society is a far cry from a blanket acceptance that transgender persons are a perfectly normal part of human society. And until that happens, those coming after us will have to endure much of the pain and suffering we had to endure.
Yes, we need to educate society not just to be okay with us but to know what our lives are like in this world and to know this pain and suffering we endured can be prevented by opening their minds and hearts. I've often said if a non-trans person had to live our life for a month, many wouldn't make it. Education is the only solution I know that will end what we know as a typical transgender life.
Julie
I have read many posts from passable TSs where they talk about how they have no problem with transitioning because they pass very well. That's not progress. They have gone from one closet to another but who can blame them? It is certainly far easier than trying to establish an new gender category and get total acceptance for that category so they can say, "I am a transwoman(man)". But that's what I hope for.
I went to have my hair done yesterday. I had the works and it took three hours. During that time I heard the women all around me talk about things like pregnancy (one was pregnant) and other things I will never be able to relate to. I walked in there wanting to be seen as a woman but the conversation made it very clear I'm not a woman.
And in the strictest sense I am not a woman, I am a transwoman, totally and completely. I am different from a woman in many ways, not just physically. There are so many things women experience in their lifetime I will never experience just as there are so many things in my life I will experience as a transwoman that no woman will ever experience. Neither is better, but they are separate and they are different. When women get together to talk they talk about life experiences only women know. When I want to have a talk like that I will always go to a transwoman. No one else will understand.
And this is why I feel transitioning into a new life, living well, etc isn't enough. Not everybody can do that and there's a myriad of reasons why. To me, this subject goes much deeper than society being okay with one's decision to transition. I take it back to our youth and the importance of not only recognizing this in young children but realizing that something needs to be done and following it up with proper treatment. How wonderful would it have been if all of us had begun HRT at puberty because society knew we'd live a hellish life if we were raised in our birth gender? No FFS, no electrolysis, no BA, no dealing with a male bone structure, etc, etc. Only one procedure: GRS.
That's what I am referring to when I say society needs to be educated. Accepting an adult's decision to transition or crossdress isn't enough. And accepting the steps a transitioning person has to take as "that's just the way it is" isn't acceptable either. If you saw the 20/20 special about transgender children you know where I'm coming from. Society is a far cry from a blanket acceptance that transgender persons are a perfectly normal part of human society. And until that happens, those coming after us will have to endure much of the pain and suffering we had to endure.
Yes, we need to educate society not just to be okay with us but to know what our lives are like in this world and to know this pain and suffering we endured can be prevented by opening their minds and hearts. I've often said if a non-trans person had to live our life for a month, many wouldn't make it. Education is the only solution I know that will end what we know as a typical transgender life.
Julie
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: gina_taylor on July 15, 2007, 06:30:57 PM
Post by: gina_taylor on July 15, 2007, 06:30:57 PM
I came out of the proverbrial closet seven years ago and I went public. Since then I've had very few problems, but nothing tramatic.
Keira, I'm really sorry to hear about the problems that you're having. You could contact the police and find out about verbal assault.
I agree with what Kimberly posted: For me, I feel no shame in what I am nor what I am doing.
Here's a thought: Should mentally challenged people feel ashamed?
Gina :icon_dance:
Keira, I'm really sorry to hear about the problems that you're having. You could contact the police and find out about verbal assault.
I agree with what Kimberly posted: For me, I feel no shame in what I am nor what I am doing.
Here's a thought: Should mentally challenged people feel ashamed?
Gina :icon_dance:
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Sheila on July 15, 2007, 06:37:16 PM
Post by: Sheila on July 15, 2007, 06:37:16 PM
Julie,
I think you know and I know that I have been out and I'm not ashamed of who I am. I will not brag about the fact that I'm TS, but if asked I will tell them. I will educate anyone who wants to know. I'm not standing on my soapbox and yelling to the world anymore, I am who I am. If you don't like it then that is your problem and not mine. I'm honest with everyone and will not hide the fact that I'm TS. I have changed all my documents, except my birth certificate. This is what the doctor wanted me to be, but he was wrong. He made a mistake and told my parents the that I should be male. It didn't work. He is human and not perfect. This is one of the biggest parts of transitioning and that is to own who you are. To be able to look in the mirror and say I'm female or male. Once you are able to do that, the rest is really just going by the numbers.
Sheila
I think you know and I know that I have been out and I'm not ashamed of who I am. I will not brag about the fact that I'm TS, but if asked I will tell them. I will educate anyone who wants to know. I'm not standing on my soapbox and yelling to the world anymore, I am who I am. If you don't like it then that is your problem and not mine. I'm honest with everyone and will not hide the fact that I'm TS. I have changed all my documents, except my birth certificate. This is what the doctor wanted me to be, but he was wrong. He made a mistake and told my parents the that I should be male. It didn't work. He is human and not perfect. This is one of the biggest parts of transitioning and that is to own who you are. To be able to look in the mirror and say I'm female or male. Once you are able to do that, the rest is really just going by the numbers.
Sheila
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Ms Bev on July 15, 2007, 08:44:08 PM
Post by: Ms Bev on July 15, 2007, 08:44:08 PM
It somehow has/had never occurred to me that I should feel shame for being a transwoman. This is something about me and my life that I am personally comfortable with, as is my family. Our neighbors don't seem to notice much at all, and tend to lead lives separate from the rest. I guess one aspect that helps make this possible, is that I live in a "bedroom" community in a rural area, where the average property is much larger than typical suburban settings. They care most about cutting their grass, and going to and from work.
Now the work part....yes, that's a problem. I work with a lot of accepting people, who have told me they support me, and see that this is a good thing, have something nice to say, or smile every time they see me, call me Bev or Beverly, and use female pronouns.
I also work with many more of the "it's okay with me, if it doesn't impinge upon my life, but I don't see how you cannot be ashamed of dressing like a female", people. Then, I also have the pleasure of working with a very small handful of people, who prior to my coming out, were fine with me, but now apparently actually hate me. They are, by and large ignorant, think ignorant things, and say ignorant things. My favorite Irish saying that applies to situations like this is : What would you expect from a pig, but a grunt? Fortunately for me, they choose not to verbalize them to me. But I see the glares, the mocking looks, etc. Still, this does not make me ashamed, it makes me angry. A better person might say it makes them sad. However, I have built up a certain amount of inner hostility toward these people, that I dare never let show. I have enough workplace friends that counterbalance that negativity.
Out and about in the world, I am read once in a while, given away almost every time by my voice. This frustrates me, but still never makes me ashamed.
I would like to be part of a global effort to educate people. I have by now, had to tell some of my workplace friends, who want to understand ts, that I have talked more about my personal life than anyone else I know, is willing to. Yet they feel that I am a resource. They are interested, and so feel justified in asking more and more very personal things about me, about my life away from work, about my love life. Nothing seems sacred to them, and so, I have told them that I have reached a saturation point, and they, a boundary.
Yes, I would like to be part of a global normalizing reality of ts, but I'm too busy surviving. It takes all my energy to put up with the ignorant few, feel confident in my presentation to customers, and earn enough to pay my bills and mortgage. Maybe, if we could all do a part among our curious friends, that would at least get us closer. Answer their questions. They will spread their knowledge, as they understand it.
So, no, I can say I have never been ashamed of being a transwoman, but it makes for a difficult, and busy life.
Now the work part....yes, that's a problem. I work with a lot of accepting people, who have told me they support me, and see that this is a good thing, have something nice to say, or smile every time they see me, call me Bev or Beverly, and use female pronouns.
I also work with many more of the "it's okay with me, if it doesn't impinge upon my life, but I don't see how you cannot be ashamed of dressing like a female", people. Then, I also have the pleasure of working with a very small handful of people, who prior to my coming out, were fine with me, but now apparently actually hate me. They are, by and large ignorant, think ignorant things, and say ignorant things. My favorite Irish saying that applies to situations like this is : What would you expect from a pig, but a grunt? Fortunately for me, they choose not to verbalize them to me. But I see the glares, the mocking looks, etc. Still, this does not make me ashamed, it makes me angry. A better person might say it makes them sad. However, I have built up a certain amount of inner hostility toward these people, that I dare never let show. I have enough workplace friends that counterbalance that negativity.
Out and about in the world, I am read once in a while, given away almost every time by my voice. This frustrates me, but still never makes me ashamed.
I would like to be part of a global effort to educate people. I have by now, had to tell some of my workplace friends, who want to understand ts, that I have talked more about my personal life than anyone else I know, is willing to. Yet they feel that I am a resource. They are interested, and so feel justified in asking more and more very personal things about me, about my life away from work, about my love life. Nothing seems sacred to them, and so, I have told them that I have reached a saturation point, and they, a boundary.
Yes, I would like to be part of a global normalizing reality of ts, but I'm too busy surviving. It takes all my energy to put up with the ignorant few, feel confident in my presentation to customers, and earn enough to pay my bills and mortgage. Maybe, if we could all do a part among our curious friends, that would at least get us closer. Answer their questions. They will spread their knowledge, as they understand it.
So, no, I can say I have never been ashamed of being a transwoman, but it makes for a difficult, and busy life.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 15, 2007, 11:21:01 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 15, 2007, 11:21:01 PM
This does not apply precisely, but it loosely parallels:
"Living well is the best revenge."
For us perhaps, living 'well', comfortably, sure of self, at relative peace with self, self-confidence and not a trace of guilt nor shame are requisite and essential for maximum acceptance by others.
I was in the second-hand store and I went through the women's clothing racks just as I did not too long ago, but today I was an emotional wreck and agonizingly sensitive and feeling vulnerable - quite the contrast from the last time.
Every now and then, I could feel a 'wisp' of not guilt, but self-consciousness trying to assert itself into the mind.
"Knock that stupidity off girl!! You are WOMAN and you have every right to be here!"
That is all that it took to bring me back to reality. I had every right to be there.
It took some effort today, but I presented a relaxed image of a woman who was at relative peace with herself, notwithstanding the emotional maelstrom within.
People 'read' and sense lack of confidence, fear or 'guilt' and once they do,.....
We have nothing to be ashamed of.
One thing that occurred to me was that I must always endeavor to present an image of dignity, honor and respectability.
That should generally be done anyway, but moreso in our case, I believe.
"Living well is the best revenge."
For us perhaps, living 'well', comfortably, sure of self, at relative peace with self, self-confidence and not a trace of guilt nor shame are requisite and essential for maximum acceptance by others.
I was in the second-hand store and I went through the women's clothing racks just as I did not too long ago, but today I was an emotional wreck and agonizingly sensitive and feeling vulnerable - quite the contrast from the last time.
Every now and then, I could feel a 'wisp' of not guilt, but self-consciousness trying to assert itself into the mind.
"Knock that stupidity off girl!! You are WOMAN and you have every right to be here!"
That is all that it took to bring me back to reality. I had every right to be there.
It took some effort today, but I presented a relaxed image of a woman who was at relative peace with herself, notwithstanding the emotional maelstrom within.
People 'read' and sense lack of confidence, fear or 'guilt' and once they do,.....
We have nothing to be ashamed of.
One thing that occurred to me was that I must always endeavor to present an image of dignity, honor and respectability.
That should generally be done anyway, but moreso in our case, I believe.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Manyfaces on July 16, 2007, 08:11:23 AM
Post by: Manyfaces on July 16, 2007, 08:11:23 AM
I have long believed--and this is based on my experience of coming out as a lesbian nearly twenty years ago, at the age of 35, and living as an out and open lesbian since that time--that for the most part (and there will always be exceptions, there will always be people who will be difficult or so deeply prejudiced, ignorant or stupid that nothing you can say or do will alter their attitudes or perceptions) people will mirror your own feelings about who you are and what you are doing. I.e., if you yourself have a lot of shame or the need to hide or apologize about who you are, people will pick that up on a subtle level, and are much more likely to react to you in a negative, critical or attacking way.
On the other hand, if you emanate self-acceptance and confidence and interact with people in such a way that makes it clear that you perceive yourself as okay, as perfectly fine, people are more likely to mirror that back to you. If you are always in a defensive posture--even unconsciously--people are more likely to attack. If you are comfortable with who you are, then other people will pick up on that and are much more likely to be comfortable with it, too.
Again, I'm not saying there won't always be jerks and bigots and exceptions to be dealt with, but overall, I think this is true. I think the most important thing we can do to improve our relationships both with society and with the individuals in our lives is to root out our own deep shame and phobic attitudes about who we are, where they exist.
On the other hand, if you emanate self-acceptance and confidence and interact with people in such a way that makes it clear that you perceive yourself as okay, as perfectly fine, people are more likely to mirror that back to you. If you are always in a defensive posture--even unconsciously--people are more likely to attack. If you are comfortable with who you are, then other people will pick up on that and are much more likely to be comfortable with it, too.
Again, I'm not saying there won't always be jerks and bigots and exceptions to be dealt with, but overall, I think this is true. I think the most important thing we can do to improve our relationships both with society and with the individuals in our lives is to root out our own deep shame and phobic attitudes about who we are, where they exist.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 08:27:38 AM
Post by: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 08:27:38 AM
QuoteWe need to drop our shame
I have an incredible amount, so much so that I am waiting on science.
When and if they establish this with 100% certaintly as biological and/or genetic and they have a definitive test for it then I think I could get past it and move forward.
Without that, I am terrified to take a step, I mean... what if it's me? what if I am crazy?
I know it's stupid, but if you were crazy, would you really know it?
Yes, I know how I feel. I have an incredible amount of shame in it that I can't just 'get over.'
I guess my contribution to the topic is this:
I think the shame will end for me when they prove with 100% certaintly that my confusion is not mental or psychological, but is in fact genetic and/or physical.
Until then, I am in my closent, but it's not so bad, I stocked up on cookies.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 09:47:33 AM
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 09:47:33 AM
Quote from: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 08:27:38 AMQuoteWe need to drop our shame
I have an incredible amount, so much so that I am waiting on science.
When and if they establish this with 100% certaintly as biological and/or genetic and they have a definitive test for it then I think I could get past it and move forward.
Without that, I am terrified to take a step, I mean... what if it's me? what if I am crazy?
I know it's stupid, but if you were crazy, would you really know it?
Yes, I know how I feel. I have an incredible amount of shame in it that I can't just 'get over.'
I guess my contribution to the topic is this:
I think the shame will end for me when they prove with 100% certaintly that my confusion is not mental or psychological, but is in fact genetic and/or physical.
Until then, I am in my closent, but it's not so bad, I stocked up on cookies.
Conditioned in, it is wondered - ?
I mean nothing offensive in this, hon; I'm just speculating upon a known characteristic of the human condition.
Ours is not a cognitive, moral nor spiritual problem.
For me, I'll not wait upon 'science' nor is it even necessary, for I have a plenitude of empirical evidence and I am rational and intelligent enough to interpret and analyze it properly, being fully aware of the hazards of subjective bias.
I have no doubt in my mind.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Kate on July 16, 2007, 09:47:39 AM
Post by: Kate on July 16, 2007, 09:47:39 AM
Madonna ~ What It Feels Like For A Girl
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
cause its ok to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cause you think that *being* a girl is degrading
But secretly youd love to know what its like
Wouldnt you?
What it feels like for a girl...
~Kate~
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
cause its ok to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cause you think that *being* a girl is degrading
But secretly youd love to know what its like
Wouldnt you?
What it feels like for a girl...
~Kate~
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
Post by: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
Rhonda, there was no offence taken.
I'm just describing me and how I feel personally.
Maybe it is conditioned, I don't know.
I do know that I can't resolve it on my own though.
For me the shame will be there until scientific proof says, "It's not your fault, You aren't crazy, You are going to be okay, it's caused by XYZ and you are perfectly justified in transitioning." ... or something like that.
Kate said a long time ago, "It's like I need someone to give me permission to transition"
I so strongly associate with that.
I can't do it on my own, there are too many unknowns, to many uncertainties.
It's not that I don't know who I am.
It's that I don't know WHY I am.
I'm just describing me and how I feel personally.
Maybe it is conditioned, I don't know.
I do know that I can't resolve it on my own though.
For me the shame will be there until scientific proof says, "It's not your fault, You aren't crazy, You are going to be okay, it's caused by XYZ and you are perfectly justified in transitioning." ... or something like that.
Kate said a long time ago, "It's like I need someone to give me permission to transition"
I so strongly associate with that.
I can't do it on my own, there are too many unknowns, to many uncertainties.
It's not that I don't know who I am.
It's that I don't know WHY I am.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: louise000 on July 16, 2007, 12:30:26 PM
Post by: louise000 on July 16, 2007, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Keira on July 15, 2007, 04:42:55 PM
Yet right in front of my home I get treated with homophobic slurs
and sometimes worse, the treat of physical assault....
The bastion of hate is just in front of my
window; they know about my past and somehow, that attacks their manhood.
Yesterday, somebody yelled in a very very angry "I'll f*** you up mother->-bleeped-<-er!!!! Not sure if it was just to frighten me, of something else, but I am very worried!!!! Not sure what to do, except move. The person that said that I don't think lived a the "bastion", there are many "evil friends" hanging out in front of that place, all with the same homophobic/transphobic agenda it seems...
Keira, Since I joined this forum you have always replied with really helpful comments to my posts and I have come to count you you as a trusted source of advice. Therefore although I will almost certainly never know you personally I have been very concerned for you since you first posted about the "yobbos" as we call them here in Britain who have been making your life difficult. Worried that something dreadful could happen and I'd hate that. The problem is that if you report them to the police that could even make it worse, because they or their friends might try and extract revenge.
From what I have seen (and heard!) of you, everything about you says "girl" and I am sure that if you could afford to move to an area where nobody knows of you, you could easily go "stealth". I know it seems like running away from the problem, but if it was me I'd be out of there.
Your experiences are just a symptom of the hate and contempt that unfortunately still exists, even in the 21st century. Interesting to think that whilst tolerance for minorities is supposedly on the way up, so society is at the same time getting more violent.
I do hope that you will find an answer to this problem and will continue to think of you. I wish so much there was something I could do to help.
Kindest regards, Louise
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 12:39:26 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
Rhonda, there was no offence taken.
I'm just describing me and how I feel personally.
Maybe it is conditioned, I don't know.
I do know that I can't resolve it on my own though.
For me the shame will be there until scientific proof says, "It's not your fault, You aren't crazy, You are going to be okay, it's caused by XYZ and you are perfectly justified in transitioning." ... or something like that.
Kate said a long time ago, "It's like I need someone to give me permission to transition"
I so strongly associate with that.
I can't do it on my own, there are too many unknowns, to many uncertainties.
It's not that I don't know who I am.
It's that I don't know WHY I am.
I know, honey. :) :)
It's just that I hate seeing someone like you suffer from what I know is misplaced and inappropriate guilt.
It's like, mankind [seemingly generally] is very good at inflicting or rather inducing guilt in 'his' fellow man, but is slow or reticent about making the necessary effort to try to understand what others are having to deal with or suffer through.
That touches both a personal nerve and that of principle. >:(
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Kate on July 16, 2007, 12:54:39 PM
Post by: Kate on July 16, 2007, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
Kate said a long time ago, "It's like I need someone to give me permission to transition"
And it's something I knew I needed to work through and get past.
IMHO, transitioning must be done while accepting absolute personal responsibility for the "decision," completely independent of ANY external justifications whatsoever. Otherwise, you're just asking for trouble later when those "proofs" are called into question.
~Kate~
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: gennee on July 16, 2007, 01:20:35 PM
Post by: gennee on July 16, 2007, 01:20:35 PM
Though I am transgender and a ->-bleeped-<-, I have always felt a kinship with transsexuals. Maybe it's because as a minority member of society I understand what TG's go through. I know what it is to feel marginalized, oppressed, made to feel insignificant, and so forth.
I never felt shame or guilt when I came out to myself as a TG and TV. I actually felt completed and liberated. I told my wife, too. Possibly sometime in the future I may tell friends and family. I am quite comfortable being out in the world wearing women's clothing. I am happy with who I am.
I want to enjoy life and see others do the same. I have no control over what others think or say about me. My advice is to accept yourself, profit from your mistakes, then move on.
Gennee
:)
I never felt shame or guilt when I came out to myself as a TG and TV. I actually felt completed and liberated. I told my wife, too. Possibly sometime in the future I may tell friends and family. I am quite comfortable being out in the world wearing women's clothing. I am happy with who I am.
I want to enjoy life and see others do the same. I have no control over what others think or say about me. My advice is to accept yourself, profit from your mistakes, then move on.
Gennee
:)
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 16, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Kate on July 16, 2007, 12:54:39 PMQuote from: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
Kate said a long time ago, "It's like I need someone to give me permission to transition"
And it's something I knew I needed to work through and get past.
IMHO, transitioning must be done while accepting absolute personal responsibility for the "decision," completely independent of ANY external justifications whatsoever. Otherwise, you're just asking for trouble later when those "proofs" are called into question.
~Kate~
Well stated, indeed.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Ms Bev on July 16, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Post by: Ms Bev on July 16, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Quote from: Jessica on July 16, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
For me the shame will be there until scientific proof says, "It's not your fault, You aren't crazy, You are going to be okay, it's caused by XYZ and you are perfectly justified in transitioning." ... or something like that.
Jessica.........
I'm so sorry for your emotional pain. I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you, but here goes.
First, I will tell you my educational degrees are in life sciences, not that it makes my opinions any stronger or better than others. But there are some basics of life science, mathmatics, physics, chemistry, and even spirituality that seem to me to always hold true. First, if you look at any population, you will find diversity. It is the most necessary element of species survival. If it were not for diversity, and its effect on speciation and population survival, we would not be here wondering if we're crazy. There is diversity everywhere you look. There are differences in size, intelligence, skin color, structure, and sexuality among people, and other animals. Diversity on all levels is seen in all living things where there is a population of more than one. Diversity starts at the number 2, be it a human, a bird, a fish, a tree, a flower, a star, a number, a .....well, you get the point. Without this diversity, the universe as we understand it, would not evolve, but remain in a dangerous state of stasis.
You, dear, are on a scale of gender identity diversity that is just as true and sure as a scale of music, with infinite gradations of pitch. You are on a scale of physical attributes that makes one male look a tiny less male than some other, or more male. There are people so close to the middle of the curve, that we all find it virtually impossible to decide, male, or female? There are many people in the global population that have a more pronounced gender-specific area of the brain than others, areas that are of a size that are typically found only in women. In men, this area is smaller. But there are many men, who's brain looks female using this criteria. Likewise, there are many women, whose brain has the same area diminished, so much so, that it looks like the x-ray of a male brain, yet it resides in a female body.
These areas develop, or do not develop, at critical times in the womb, by timed hormonal influxes. If the timing is wrong (and it will be much of the time, according to statistical diversity), the brain will not exactly match the gender of the body in which it resides. When that happens, the individual will feel that he or she is "wrong", or oddly mismatched. And they feel this is wrong. So much so, that they feel great shame in not being "just like everyone else".
Have you ever wondered just what it is that "everyone else" thinks about, quietly in their own diversly patterned brains? Maybe, they think things about themselves that are so awful, they refuse to accept them. Maybe, "everyone else" is not as honest with themselves as you are, Jessica. You should be proud not only of your difference from "everyone else", but of your courage and honesty with yourself to look at it, square in the mirror.
Are you crazy Jessica?
Only if you think you are.
Do you?
Hugs from a transwoman,
Bev (not crazy)
P.S. There are many medical sites on the internet that will show you what I'm talking about. I left out lots and lots of detail and medical jargon.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Ms Bev on July 17, 2007, 06:35:36 AM
Post by: Ms Bev on July 17, 2007, 06:35:36 AM
Quote from: Kate on July 15, 2007, 03:38:45 PM
I tried to "educate" when I came out at work. My original speech explained what I was and wasn't........
..........."Oh by the way, I'm going by the name Kate now, doin' the whole sex change thing and all."[/i] And without exception everyone has said, "Good for you Kate. So, do you think it's going to rain?" And that's the end of it.
.........I don't think society is nearly as intolerant as we fear.
........."the bigger a deal you make of this, the bigger a deal they'll think it is."[/i]
~Kate~
Kate, I have a tendency to over-educate, and am finding that people don't want all that DETAIL. Apparently, I'm taking up valuable time with extraneous detail, and yes, they want to know how it affects them, not me as much.
Like children, the bigger a deal you make of something, the bigger a deal it becomes.
It's not a matter of society not being ready, it's more about self absorbed individuals caring about themselves first, and foremost, and what benefits them, or makes them happy. You, me, us......we all come second, and as long as what they consider embarrassing, odd behaviors do not impinge upon their lives, what do they care? *shrug*.
my two cents worth
Bev
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: gina_taylor on July 17, 2007, 06:55:40 AM
Post by: gina_taylor on July 17, 2007, 06:55:40 AM
Last night I met a new employee at a wig store, and we got into a nice conversation about my transgenderness. During the time, I expresed no shame on telling her about myself.
Gina :icon_dance:
Gina :icon_dance:
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Lori on July 17, 2007, 07:06:48 AM
Post by: Lori on July 17, 2007, 07:06:48 AM
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
And in the strictest sense I am not a woman, I am a transwoman, totally and completely. I am different from a woman in many ways, not just physically. There are so many things women experience in their lifetime I will never experience just as there are so many things in my life I will experience as a transwoman that no woman will ever experience. Neither is better, but they are separate and they are different. When women get together to talk they talk about life experiences only women know. When I want to have a talk like that I will always go to a transwoman. No one else will understand.
Ow. Your words cut like a knife that was sharpened and honed to a serrated heart wrenching bowel opener. Your words hurt deeply because way down in the pit of my stomach, I know you are right. And it was those words "I am not a woman, I won't ever be a real woman, nor will I ever really relate to them on that deepest of personal levels because I will never have a period or bear a child", that stopped me over and over from transitioning.
I guess being a transwoman will be better than being a man. There are genetic women that have not had their periods and many who do have them would do just about anything to stop from having them as well. Also there are many that have never had a child, cannot bear children, or just would never want to go through that and have children. Is the main difference in the fact that they can and we cannot? I suppose it comes down to what you really want. I started to look at it like getting all the benefits without having to go through the messy parts. But you are right Julie. We won't be able to relate on that personal scale of womanhood. There are other things you can relate to though, and the topic almost always switches to something else. We are unique and have insight to things they will never be able to relate to so I guess it kind of evens out. In the end, I do not think you are less of a woman, just different.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Kimberly on July 17, 2007, 07:47:38 AM
Post by: Kimberly on July 17, 2007, 07:47:38 AM
Quote from: Lori on July 17, 2007, 07:06:48 AM
Ow. You words cut like a knife that was sharpened and honed to a serrated heart wrenching bowel opener. Your words hurt deeply because way down in the pit of my stomach, I know you are right. And it was those words "I am not a woman, I won't ever be a real woman, nor will I ever really relate to them on that deepest of personal levels because I will never have a period or bear a child", that stopped me over and over from transitioning.
Yep, that is about the size of it. An it is that that stopped me just shy of 20 odd years ago. ... Oh well. We do the best we can with what we have in the situation we find ourselves in. It just so happens that we get stuck in the middle as for as proper function goes; the best we can get is an approximation. ... I think that our best path is to realize this and to come to grips with it. Transition IS better than the hell of pretending to be a man. (An if you are M2F you are NOT a Man, pretending to be such causes only pain.) ... The only real option we have is to go ahead and be ..... whatever it is we end up being; some mutilated hybrid, externally pretty internally a blooming mess. No, I DO NOT LIKE this process, but in the same I head towards it because I perceive no other alternative, no choice. No, in this life I will never be a natal female, if absolutely nothing else in that the years lost. My childhood has come and gone, Oh well. Pick up the pieces, sop up the milk and carry on with life.
An it is easier said than done, but what choice have we?
I do not want this, I really don't. But in the same I am a female regardless of what I want and what others perceive to pretend otherwise caused me great pain in life and was MASSIVELY shortening my life expectancy. This transitional mess IS better than what was, but no this is certainly not any kind of promised land.
Quote from: Winston Churchill
If you're going through hell, keep going.
Quote from: Lori on July 17, 2007, 07:06:48 AMIn the end I think that is it in a nutshell, because, simply there is more to us than the physical and the experiences. We still ARE female even if not everything aligns and is apparent as such.
In the end, I do not think you are less of a woman, just different.
Tis a shame, I suppose, that we at large do not fit into their pretty little boxes and make them think a little bit on their own.
;)
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: cindyh on July 17, 2007, 08:11:45 AM
Post by: cindyh on July 17, 2007, 08:11:45 AM
My biggest enemy is procrastination. Fear, guilt have also been my enemy. Not so much guilt, but literal fear of the unknown. Fear of regret is a close second, but guilt, I don't know. My choice to live leaves me with little of it, sure I am guilty of many things but the biggest is procrastination and I don't think it is about fear. I've had a bad tooth for about six months now. I have I gone to the dentist yet? I think not, but I'm not afraid of the dentist nor the bills that I will incur.
As for regrets, I look far to the past and there are a ton of them. I think I was more trouble when I was still Gregg. The biggest are spending 7 tears at Cornell getting a 4 year degree, :P a drunk driving ticket etc.
Looking at bad pictures of me with this dead animal on my head from back in the 80's, that makes me worry, but back then I was content. Now? Ugh. Those things kill me.
Yes I fear the people that that fear the unknown and what they don't understand. My biggest fear is death. I grew up going to Church but still, my beliefs or the lack of just make it that way.I can accept everything else pretty much with the exception of the loss of a loved one. I guess in the end everyone has a primal fear and some act on that fear in a negative way. Some fears can be beaten, some cannot.
I can't forget my past nor forgive my mis-deeds, but its now. Now is the most precious time for it will never come again. I will live for "now" and I'll be alright. I gotta live for today and tomorrow.
Most of the time comes down to fear of the unknown, and it may not seem like it but it probably is and I hate that.
As for regrets, I look far to the past and there are a ton of them. I think I was more trouble when I was still Gregg. The biggest are spending 7 tears at Cornell getting a 4 year degree, :P a drunk driving ticket etc.
Looking at bad pictures of me with this dead animal on my head from back in the 80's, that makes me worry, but back then I was content. Now? Ugh. Those things kill me.
Yes I fear the people that that fear the unknown and what they don't understand. My biggest fear is death. I grew up going to Church but still, my beliefs or the lack of just make it that way.I can accept everything else pretty much with the exception of the loss of a loved one. I guess in the end everyone has a primal fear and some act on that fear in a negative way. Some fears can be beaten, some cannot.
I can't forget my past nor forgive my mis-deeds, but its now. Now is the most precious time for it will never come again. I will live for "now" and I'll be alright. I gotta live for today and tomorrow.
Most of the time comes down to fear of the unknown, and it may not seem like it but it probably is and I hate that.
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 17, 2007, 11:12:40 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on July 17, 2007, 11:12:40 PM
Quote from: Lori on July 17, 2007, 07:06:48 AMQuote from: Julie Marie on July 15, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
And in the strictest sense I am not a woman, I am a transwoman, totally and completely. I am different from a woman in many ways, not just physically. There are so many things women experience in their lifetime I will never experience just as there are so many things in my life I will experience as a transwoman that no woman will ever experience. Neither is better, but they are separate and they are different. When women get together to talk they talk about life experiences only women know. When I want to have a talk like that I will always go to a transwoman. No one else will understand.
Ow. Your words cut like a knife that was sharpened and honed to a serrated heart wrenching bowel opener. Your words hurt deeply because way down in the pit of my stomach, I know you are right. And it was those words "I am not a woman, I won't ever be a real woman, nor will I ever really relate to them on that deepest of personal levels because I will never have a period or bear a child", that stopped me over and over from transitioning.
I guess being a transwoman will be better than being a man. There are genetic women that have not had their periods and many who do have them would do just about anything to stop from having them as well. Also there are many that have never had a child, cannot bear children, or just would never want to go through that and have children. Is the main difference in the fact that they can and we cannot? I suppose it comes down to what you really want. I started to look at it like getting all the benefits without having to go through the messy parts. But you are right Julie. We won't be able to relate on that personal scale of womanhood. There are other things you can relate to though, and the topic almost always switches to something else. We are unique and have insight to things they will never be able to relate to so I guess it kind of evens out. In the end, I do not think you are less of a woman, just different.
Like the proverbial 'salt in the [very deep] wound'.
That stung like hell. :'(
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: Berliegh on July 25, 2007, 02:28:15 AM
Post by: Berliegh on July 25, 2007, 02:28:15 AM
Quote from: Kate on July 15, 2007, 03:38:45 PM
I think that's the key. I've found that people in general really don't want to be "educated." They're far more worried about their mortgage and cheating husbands than the basics of transgender theory. There's a catch-22 that the more you explain to people, the more it sounds like you're apologizing, the more it begins to look like it's something you *should* explain. Thou doth protest to much...
I tried to "educate" when I came out at work. I talked with 30ish employees, one at a time, to explain my situation. My original speech explained what I was and wasn't, how long I've felt this way, etc. But it quickly became apparent that people really didn't care about all that. They just wanted to know what they needed to know ("how does this affect ME?"), ask how they could help, and to get back to their life. By the time I was done, my page-long speech had been reduced to, "Look, I'm changing my sex and changing my name to Kate, so you'll notice me looking more and more female over the coming months. So how's your laptop working?"
Same with neighbors: for the first few I met, I'd launch into this long speech about TSism, how it's not CDing, etc. But in every case you could just see their eyes glazing over... they just don't CARE about all that. Since then, whenever I bump into someone who doesn't know about Kate yet (but who knew me from before), it's usually a few minutes into talking about the weather when I slip in, "Oh by the way, I'm going by the name Kate now, doin' the whole sex change thing and all." And without exception everyone has said, "Good for you Kate. So, do you think it's going to rain?" And that's the end of it.
I went to a wedding recently where quite a few people knew me from before, but whom I hadn't told about Kate yet. Someone apparently had informed them though, as every single one of them called me Kate when they saw me. And not one person questioned it, not one person seemed uncomfortable or awkward. I *could* have taken the opportunity to "educate" everyone, but it just wasn't necessary. THEY were perfectly content and satisfied, it just wasn't a big deal, and "educating" would have just made it into one.
I don't think society is nearly as intolerant as we fear. Some areas probably, yes, but I haven't seen it personally. I DO think that shame and a persecuted "victim" mentality is rampant within the community however, which often leads to this urge to "educate and inform" as a means to apologize and justify ourselves. I realize that's not going to go over well with many of you, but I swear that the more we turn this into an "agenda," the more we organize and have "pride parades" and make our personal lives a political statement, the more society will get scared and instinctively defend itself against us.
The best education IMHO is to just go about your life, live it well, and realize that "the bigger a deal you make of this, the bigger a deal they'll think it is."
IMHO and all that,
~Kate~
Kate, in a nutshell.....you are absolutely spot on girl.....
Title: Re: When Will The Shame End?
Post by: debisl on July 25, 2007, 10:02:57 AM
Post by: debisl on July 25, 2007, 10:02:57 AM
Kate I do think you have hit the preverbal nail on the head. All of the parades and news conferences about gays, lesbians, transgender people just draw attention to all of us. It is human nature for people to look upon others that are different in a different light. Short,tall,fat,skinny,blind,cripple,retardation, and the list goes on, and on. If anyone here is waiting for society to change, I hope you are truly not holding your breath. It is not going to happen in our lifetime.
Companies have drafted new policies in the work place. Don't for one minute think they are trying to help us. It is to make them selves look good and not to have any lawsuits. Don't kid yourself. If you think otherwise just ask your hr rep if they would allow their son to date you.
I have never been ashamed of who I am and I never will be. I have been ashamed of some of my actions, but that was self induced. I have been more or less in a girls role since I was 16. I had a goal and I have stuck to it. There is absolutly no reason to be ashamed of a situation that you had no control over. Each person in our situation needs to put forth the energy to do something to better their situation and stop trying to blame society for something they had no control over.
I do not like to draw attention to myself about being TS, TG or whatever lable you want to put on me. I am a woman and that is all there is to it. Pure and simple. I do have problems. Many of them! Most of them are mental. I know you don't have to say it. I am a dingy blond. It is so hard to go out and try to have a relationship with a straight person. I might add that it is near impossible. This has played on my mind for such a long time. I will be having surgery soon. It is not a cure all, but I think in my situation I will feel much better about myself.
Please hold your heads up high and be proud of the person you are. We all have something to contribute back to this world. Don't blame anyone especialy yourselves for what you are. If you have to get pissed off do so, but in a positive direction. Turn all of your frustrations into positive goals to set for yourself. Don't raise the bar too high at first. Take girly steps.
I myself started on my figure. I have gone from skinny to fat and back several times. Don't worry about your face too much. Make-up can take care of that. That is the one thing you can cover up. Why do think women refer to putting make-up on, as putting their face on!!!! If there is one tip I could give you it would be to work on your shape, then voice! If you look like a linebacker make it your goal to change that look. Trust me you can do it. By the way Julie you are very beautiful. linebacker you are not.
Deb
Companies have drafted new policies in the work place. Don't for one minute think they are trying to help us. It is to make them selves look good and not to have any lawsuits. Don't kid yourself. If you think otherwise just ask your hr rep if they would allow their son to date you.
I have never been ashamed of who I am and I never will be. I have been ashamed of some of my actions, but that was self induced. I have been more or less in a girls role since I was 16. I had a goal and I have stuck to it. There is absolutly no reason to be ashamed of a situation that you had no control over. Each person in our situation needs to put forth the energy to do something to better their situation and stop trying to blame society for something they had no control over.
I do not like to draw attention to myself about being TS, TG or whatever lable you want to put on me. I am a woman and that is all there is to it. Pure and simple. I do have problems. Many of them! Most of them are mental. I know you don't have to say it. I am a dingy blond. It is so hard to go out and try to have a relationship with a straight person. I might add that it is near impossible. This has played on my mind for such a long time. I will be having surgery soon. It is not a cure all, but I think in my situation I will feel much better about myself.
Please hold your heads up high and be proud of the person you are. We all have something to contribute back to this world. Don't blame anyone especialy yourselves for what you are. If you have to get pissed off do so, but in a positive direction. Turn all of your frustrations into positive goals to set for yourself. Don't raise the bar too high at first. Take girly steps.
I myself started on my figure. I have gone from skinny to fat and back several times. Don't worry about your face too much. Make-up can take care of that. That is the one thing you can cover up. Why do think women refer to putting make-up on, as putting their face on!!!! If there is one tip I could give you it would be to work on your shape, then voice! If you look like a linebacker make it your goal to change that look. Trust me you can do it. By the way Julie you are very beautiful. linebacker you are not.
Deb