Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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please do not read if you don't want to be triggered.
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Being trans is the worst thing ever if you care what people think about you or if you are not incredibly introverted. It's the worst minority to be in. Trans people as a group have no dignity in the world and nobody cares. The trans narrative is ridicuous. You mostly can't justmlive your life as a trans person and you have to fught for every little bit of normalcy that will probably never really be normal anyway. It pretty much goes hand in hand with mental illness. Messed up people transition to more messed up people and normal people transition to messed up people. I wish I never transitioned, I know I only did it cuz I was emotionally ruined since forever and didn't care. I wish I never knew what it was like being a girl so I could have made the most of being a boy and not think too hard about not being like other boys. Transitioning made everything impossible, now i hate myself for what I am and I can't stop being gender-ruined.

And trans people are so fake. Oh my god. They just bleed fakeness because they are so desperate for validation. MTFs have such a frAgile pride and they flip out over everything. And they do sooooo much rewriting ofntheir past and it's so stupid. They will have dated or married girls all their lives and try to pass off as a straight girl now. It's always all these excuses, like oh, I just really wanted to be like the girls I was having sex with. Yeah right. For the record I don't blame them, just being trans is that bad... it makes people feel like they have to account for their own past and for who they are. It makes people feel wrong and like they have to be something they're not. But the problem is most trans people don't really fit in outside the trans community. So many trans people can hardly even carry a brief conversation with an average member of their target sex. Cuz the sexes are so different, that's the reality... most trans people will only fit in somewhere if they have no inhibitions and can happily live thru lots of BS just to meet a single person who treats them like a human being.

I wish someone had told me what a horrible thing it is to be trans before I transitioned... trans peopel act like they are so much better off but yeah right. They can only stay stable even bc they have the trans community to accept them, so basically yeah, being trans makes you just trans forever, not your target gender. When do trans people get suicidal? probably a lot more after transition than before. in all these subtle ways I feel like such an alien even if I seem more normal than ever to the world. I hate myself and everything about me and being trans. The worst part is i make a normal girl who is not actually normal. At least if I looked freakish people would know what to expect. I hate that I can't detransition, it is seriously all I can do to not have sui thoughts all freaking day. I don't even want to live this stupid fake life as a fake girl. You can't change your sex. It is not possible. Pretty much all trans people stand out as different to anyone who pays attention. All you get is the pain of realizing that and wishing you could be normal. Whatever. And you know what the funniest part is? The trans community is just the cis world with the gender stereotypes flipped around. I mean not just physically.  All the girls date girls, all the guys date guys and you don't fit in if that's not you. All the girls are headstrong and political and competitive and like programming and guns and all the guys are soft and artsy and care too much for their own good and really want a reason to be involved in the gay community. Seriously. It's the exact same polarized stereotypes, just reversed. It doesn't even mean anything anymore to call yourself a guy or a girl, it's empty air, it's like a nickname. MTFs treat FTMs like girls and vice versa. That's why so many actually gay trans people can have relationships with the opposite type of trans... yah know, FTMs but not cis guys. MTFs but never a female.

And it is all so hypocritical. Trans people want to uphold gender stereotypes when it validates them and lash out against them when it's oppressive and stifling. Like ooooh look at me I painted my nails, I'm so girly right? I used to look at women's clothes when I was 5, that makes me super female, shoulda transitioned the first day my friend called me a sissy in grade school and. i secretly liked it. But don't tell me it's weird for a girl to do MMA and fly fighter jets.

I wish i could be a biy again.... so bad. Even the girliest boy in the world would have a better and more normal life than a trans person. At least if I were a boy I wouldn't feel like it's my fault that I am so weird. At least if I were a boy I could stop thinking about gender all. the. time. What a stupid thing to think about. But the world is gendered... but no. I am stuck as a fake girl. Im always gomna feel this way, Never gonna feel natural and whole again. I'm always gonna push people away cuz I can't handle it. I'm always gonna dream of having a life that's not mine, no mattr what. :| yes I a, whining. Cuz that's all. i can do. I can't overcome this because it's not wirth overcoming, I don't want to live my life like this but i am stuck.

I can't even tell my own therapist how I feel cuz my one shred of dignity is that I will never let myself constantly talk about being trans to people IRL. I want to hoppe someome who knows will just forget anyway. But then i have nobody to share this pain with.

Nice rant. I enjoyed.

I'm sorry that's your experience. Not sure why you're so concerned about what other trans* people are doing, maybe just focus on yourself and forget about them if they bother you that much. :) Personally the M2F people I know in person are all genuine, decent, wonderful human beings.

If it helps to give you a different perspective, I've found a lot of acceptance from cis people, more than I expected to be honest. And I don't know about other trans* people but I have no intention of whitewashing my past, it is what it is.

Hugs, SP. I know what it's like to feel hopeless. There are indeed a lot of negatives to being trans.

Have you been screened for depression? Reason I ask, is that when I'm depressed, everything seems like a major downer. It all feels like it's all adding up to a life that can't be endured. When I'm past my bout (which usually lasts until I get enough sleep), I can't imagine why I felt that way and my life feels special again. Those same things just become individual annoyances.

If this isn't helpful, please feel free to ignore it. It's what I've got to give this time around.

Quote from: Ms Grace on March 15, 2014, 06:48:59 AM
I'm sorry that's your experience. Not sure why you're so concerned about what other trans* people are doing, maybe just focus on yourself and forget about them if they bother you that much. :) Personally the M2F people I know in person are all genuine, decent, wonderful human beings.

If it helps to give you a different perspective, I've found a lot of acceptance from cis people, more than I expected to be honest. And I don't know about other trans* people but I have no intention of whitewashing my past, it is what it is.

Thanks. Yeah it is really just how I feel. It's just not for me. It makes me negative though. I mean about gender stuff. I don't,like gender and I kinda feel that the trans community just made me believe more than ever that the sexes are very different.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 15, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Hugs, SP. I know what it's like to feel hopeless. There are indeed a lot of negatives to being trans.

Have you been screened for depression? Reason I ask, is that when I'm depressed, everything seems like a major downer. It all feels like it's all adding up to a life that can't be endured. When I'm past my bout (which usually lasts until I get enough sleep), I can't imagine why I felt that way and my life feels special again. Those same things just become individual annoyances.

If this isn't helpful, please feel free to ignore it. It's what I've got to give this time around.

Well yes I have depression and BPD. One of the things I suffer from the BPD is a lack of personal identity. And just having trouble knowing what I want in life. But i didn't know my diagnosis before and how maybe that affected my choice to transition. I wish I would have had someone stop me. :(

If you think about it, as kids, there really isn't anything different between the male and female sex besides genitals, then puberty hits and that is where the difference comes, but that is just biological, women were meant to get attributes for baby making (breasts, wider hips, etc), men were suppose to be the protectors (more muscle). At one point in the womb all fetus are considered female before the sex is assigned, its why men have nipples. A lot of differences can also be just society's standards, if you go to different parts of the world, men and women can behave differently depending on customs. Not really sure where I was going with this, but was trying to make you feel better in some way about the differences.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 07:22:34 AM

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 15, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Hugs, SP. I know what it's like to feel hopeless. There are indeed a lot of negatives to being trans.

Have you been screened for depression? Reason I ask, is that when I'm depressed, everything seems like a major downer. It all feels like it's all adding up to a life that can't be endured. When I'm past my bout (which usually lasts until I get enough sleep), I can't imagine why I felt that way and my life feels special again. Those same things just become individual annoyances.

If this isn't helpful, please feel free to ignore it. It's what I've got to give this time around.

Well yes I have depression and BPD. One of the things I suffer from the BPD is a lack of personal identity. And just having trouble knowing what I want in life. But i didn't know my diagnosis before and how maybe that affected my choice to transition. I wish I would have had someone stop me. :(

Have you been diagnosed with Borderline? (I ask because some people diagnose themselves which is rarely accurate.) If so, it explains a lot of what you've been saying.

Quote from: FA on March 15, 2014, 08:02:07 AM
Well yes I have depression and BPD. One of the things I suffer from the BPD is a lack of personal identity. And just having trouble knowing what I want in life. But i didn't know my diagnosis before and how maybe that affected my choice to transition. I wish I would have had someone stop me. :(


Have you been diagnosed with Borderline? (I ask because some people diagnose themselves which is rarely accurate.) If so, it explains a lot of what you've been saying.

Uh huh. And my mom has it too. :/

edit: though personally I think I have complex-PTSD instead

Well, is it possible you are really happy in your transition but the identity issues cloud it? I mean, maybe you would be struggling with identity even if you hadn't transitioned.

Not just the identity issues, but the abandonment issues also probably play a large part. Am I right? I'm just guessing because of the social issues you mentioned.
Not all people, cis or trans, are the same and we don't all have the same experiences. I know sometimes it can be hard to focus on that.
I'm also a borderline. I'm "in remission" though. Have you tried DBT?

Well I enjoyed this rant too

I think you made some good points, yeah trans people just cant be normal the sooner you accept this the happier you ll be also we cant get rid of dysphoria completely ,even if you are the prettiest girl there are still regrets...

I dont think its bad though to be trans cause of society and normality etc I think its a bad situation because of your own self hate, and we can only try to eliminate the self hate but it will always be , even at minimum...

Being trans also messes up identity issues...
I mean cis people for example only know that they born male are male , and the same for the females
but we transitioning from one an other dont have such a clear image of male to female , it can mess up your mind...

Anyway the most important thing for me is to accept it , accept that you wont be normal , accept that you wont be a real girl etc etc
its important to know yourself and move forward , eventually things will get better like this.

Quote from: FA on March 15, 2014, 08:29:34 AM
Well, is it possible you are really happy in your transition but the identity issues cloud it? I mean, maybe you would be struggling with identity even if you hadn't transitioned.

Yeah probably but I don't know how to tell what being happy means honestly. Being trans didn't make me feel more joy or anything. on paper it gave me a lot of things I was kept from before but i just don't feel better in the end. But maybe I just can't feel the positive emotions that should have been there otherwise, it feels like i can only see degrees of negative. :c

Quote from: Edge on March 15, 2014, 08:38:25 AM
Not just the identity issues, but the abandonment issues also probably play a large part. Am I right? I'm just guessing because of the social issues you mentioned.
Not all people, cis or trans, are the same and we don't all have the same experiences. I know sometimes it can be hard to focus on that.
I'm also a borderline. I'm "in remission" though. Have you tried DBT?

Yeah definitely. The abandonment issues are a lot worse after transition, I guess I feel even less worthy of love and even more suspicious about what people think of me. I am doing DBT but I'm not very good at the skills yet. I'm trying though. I have come a long way but. :( sorry to hear that you struggle with this too. I hope you are well.

Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 15, 2014, 08:41:49 AM
Well I enjoyed this rant too

I think you made some good points, yeah trans people just cant be normal the sooner you accept this the happier you ll be also we cant get rid of dysphoria completely ,even if you are the prettiest girl there are still regrets...

I dont think its bad though to be trans cause of society and normality etc I think its a bad situation because of your own self hate, and we can only try to eliminate the self hate but it will always be , even at minimum...

Being trans also messes up identity issues...
I mean cis people for example only know that they born male are male , and the same for the females
but we transitioning from one an other dont have such a clear image of male to female , it can mess up your mind...

Anyway the most important thing for me is to accept it , accept that you wont be normal , accept that you wont be a real girl etc etc
its important to know yourself and move forward , eventually things will get better like this.

I try so hard to accept it but it never feels better, just I either ignore it more or less. But when I ignore it I feel dead inside so. I think it is best just to be your birth sex and get support for who you are in spite of that. That's just me thoug. I wish I could have made friends as a femme male not as a girl with a secret. Y'know? Ehh I know I'm being difficult just i can't change how I feel. :(

I;m so confused. Are you FtM or MtF - who desires to be male again?

I understand the frustration in your post, i really do. But you go too far and you make sweeping generalisations about individuals within a community. Don't paint me with your brush.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 08:57:20 AM

I try so hard to accept it but it never feels better, just I either ignore it more or less. But when I ignore it I feel dead inside so. I think it is best just to be your birth sex and get support for who you are in spite of that. That's just me thoug. I wish I could have made friends as a femme male not as a girl with a secret. Y'know? Ehh I know I'm being difficult just i can't change how I feel. :(

Αre you saying its best to be your birth sex because the transformation isnt gonna be that accurate?
but what if you are in your birth sex and have these feelings?isnt that kinda of a torment too?

anyways are you stealth? maybe thats making you feel guilty I dont really know...

anyway stay strong  , do not lose hope...

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 08:57:20 AMYeah definitely. The abandonment issues are a lot worse after transition, I guess I feel even less worthy of love and even more suspicious about what people think of me.

Do you think you might be struggling with some internalized transphobia as well? That could definitely contribute and it might be something to discuss with your therapist.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 08:57:20 AMI am doing DBT but I'm not very good at the skills yet. I'm trying though. I have come a long way but. :( sorry to hear that you struggle with this too. I hope you are well.

Hang in there. The skills get easier the more one practices them as long as they keep at it.
Yeah I'm very well actually. It's not as much of a struggle anymore.

The OP captures some of my frustration with the trans* community, including many things I see but know better than to openly say.  With people I can talk to honestly and privately, I am sometimes even more harsh in my frustrated rants. 

One unfortunate thing I've found is that 100% of my support comes from cispeople.  With them I can be authentic and not have to hide who I am.  They pretty much take me at face value. 

With trans* people, they almost always want me to be more of a man.  I get accused of "giving into societal pressures about what women are like" and being "trans cis" (what does that even mean?) and just simply being "too much like a woman."  The irony of that is incredible.  A group of people complaining that they really are something, but complaining at me for being too much like what I say I am.  Especially since I tried living as a guy and gave it up because I couldn't pull it off. 

I have been to trans* gatherings and been told I can "be myself" here.  But that's not true.  I can be what they think I'm supposed to be.  I have to bury all the stuff that varies.  And alas, this website is no different.  I spend a lot of time biting my tongue, refraining from saying things about myself, and avoiding topics due to the hazards of being honest.  I sometimes wonder why I'm still posting at all.  But I've stopped starting substantive topics, and I do feel that I am gradually moving away from the site as a whole. 

But I disagree that being trans* is a bad thing.  I think that for all the frustration and difficulty, and despite the gender stereotypes being turned on their heads, trans* people are still people.  And trans* is not bad or defective.  Trans* is spicy.  If life is a stew, then trans* people are part of what makes the stew spicier and tastier.  Life would be boring with no trans* people.

Quote from: castle of glass on March 15, 2014, 09:01:13 AM
I;m so confused. Are you FtM or MtF - who desires to be male again?

I understand the frustration in your post, i really do. But you go too far and you make sweeping generalisations about individuals within a community. Don't paint me with your brush.

Sorry, i am maab and live as a girl right now.

Quote from: Edge on March 15, 2014, 09:15:40 AM
Do you think you might be struggling with some internalized transphobia as well? That could definitely contribute and it might be something to discuss with your therapist.
Hang in there. The skills get easier the more one practices them as long as they keep at it.
Yeah I'm very well actually. It's not as much of a struggle anymore.

I guess. I am not sure what that means. Does disagreeing with trans people about gender make me transphobic? I have no problems with people being trans at all. Or anything, I am really relaxed about people's identities. I mean it's not my business, I support anyone being themselves. I still have opinions about what men and women are normally like though, I can't help that. :c if I ever get frustrated with trans people it's just cuz I am confused tho, not because they are doing anything wrong.

But, my therapist knows next to nothing about being trans. I try not to talk about it too much even if she would tell me to if it was bothering me. It just makes me feel bad :/

I'm really happy for you that you are doing so well though. (: I mean that. That is awesome...

Quote from: FalsePrincess on March 15, 2014, 09:07:42 AM
Αre you saying its best to be your birth sex because the transformation isnt gonna be that accurate?
but what if you are in your birth sex and have these feelings?isnt that kinda of a torment too?

anyways are you stealth? maybe thats making you feel guilty I dont really know...

anyway stay strong  , do not lose hope...

Not sure, maybe it is really torment for some people. It wasn't for me specifically, only cuz of how my family treated me. I just wanted it to be socially acceptable for me to do girly things and date guys who otherwise wouldn't. I didn't need to be a girl :/ yeah I am stealth though except for my therapist and my doctor. I guess what I don't have is the body thing,  i had a body that mostly matched my personality except sexually I guess but i'm not a very sexual person....

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 15, 2014, 09:28:23 AM
The OP captures some of my frustration with the trans* community, including many things I see but know better than to openly say.  With people I can talk to honestly and privately, I am sometimes even more harsh in my frustrated rants. 

One unfortunate thing I've found is that 100% of my support comes from cispeople.  With them I can be authentic and not have to hide who I am.  They pretty much take me at face value. 

With trans* people, they almost always want me to be more of a man.  I get accused of "giving into societal pressures about what women are like" and being "trans cis" (what does that even mean?) and just simply being "too much like a woman."  The irony of that is incredible.  A group of people complaining that they really are something, but complaining at me for being too much like what I say I am.  Especially since I tried living as a guy and gave it up because I couldn't pull it off. 

I have been to trans* gatherings and been told I can "be myself" here.  But that's not true.  I can be what they think I'm supposed to be.  I have to bury all the stuff that varies.  And alas, this website is no different.  I spend a lot of time biting my tongue, refraining from saying things about myself, and avoiding topics due to the hazards of being honest.  I sometimes wonder why I'm still posting at all.  But I've stopped starting substantive topics, and I do feel that I am gradually moving away from the site as a whole. 

But I disagree that being trans* is a bad thing.  I think that for all the frustration and difficulty, and despite the gender stereotypes being turned on their heads, trans* people are still people.  And trans* is not bad or defective.  Trans* is spicy.  If life is a stew, then trans* people are part of what makes the stew spicier and tastier.  Life would be boring with no trans* people.

Yeah I sort of feel like people here can be just as oppressive as the cis world in an opposite way *sometimes*. Probably just because everyone is trying so hard to validate themselves and everyone wants to have the real trans truth. Maybe it is well meaning or they just want to feel valid, but it is still oppressive. IDK. I agree trans is not bad. I don't think that at all.  I just wonder if people are as happy as they say they are. And maybe they are... I just am really biased so it's hard to believe. Well, at any rate i feel bad for trans people because I can't see the trans community becoming a normal part of the cis world. I mean to the extent that gay people have for example, because being gay is a lot more straightforward, being trans is just really anything somebody wants to be gender wise and I don't think cis people get that at all. I mean I am very used to it and supposed to be a part of it and I still don't get it. I guess it's too much/too comfusing for me. ;O;

Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 10:35:54 AMI guess. I am not sure what that means.

I mean do you think you are less worthy because you are trans.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 10:35:54 AMBut, my therapist knows next to nothing about being trans. I try not to talk about it too much even if she would tell me to if it was bothering me. It just makes me feel bad :/

Maybe not, but they probably know a thing or two about not feeling worthy.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 10:35:54 AMI'm really happy for you that you are doing so well though. (: I mean that. That is awesome...

Thanks. I hope one day you do well too.

I am sure you understand the logical fallacy of thinking that other people can't be happy with transition because you aren't, and using confirmation bias to disregard those who claim to be happy.

I am sorry you feel this way, and I don't doubt your pain is just as real as mine is, as I try and take people at face value; but certainly you see how what you said encompassing all transpeople is just as hurtful as transpeople who would doubt the issue you have with transition. I find it frustrating when anyone makes overarching generalized statements about groups of people, as they can never be accurate by the very nature that not everyone is the same.

Quote from: Edge on March 15, 2014, 11:04:24 AM
I mean do you think you are less worthy because you are trans.
Maybe not, but they probably know a thing or two about not feeling worthy.
Thanks. I hope one day you do well too.

Oh, yeah, well I definitely feel a lot of negative things about myself i would never feel about other people. And being trans def makes that worse, like in some ways I won't be ok with myself and won't think I deserve love or approval until I stop being trans. I guess that is internalized transphobia? :( that's weird.

We are sort of working on feeling worthy though, like building resources, it's just really hard because I stop believing those positive things unless I am constantly reminded. But I can't wait until all that chatter is gone and i can just feel ok. I guess it feels like detransitioning is the only way i can have that to some extent but...

Quote from: Hikari on March 15, 2014, 11:13:00 AM
I am sure you understand the logical fallacy of thinking that other people can't be happy with transition because you aren't, and using confirmation bias to disregard those who claim to be happy.

I am sorry you feel this way, and I don't doubt your pain is just as real as mine is, as I try and take people at face value; but certainly you see how what you said encompassing all transpeople is just as hurtful as transpeople who would doubt the issue you have with transition. I find it frustrating when anyone makes overarching generalized statements about groups of people, as they can never be accurate by the very nature that not everyone is the same.

hmm, well, i did say everyone is different. Idk, all I can do is point out things i am noticing. If it is a logical fallacy to project that feeling then isn't it a logical fallacy to personalize a generalization? Lol I don't know if that makes sense. I just mean, it's not like I said it to any one person. And it's not all tans people either, and it doesn't really matter who it is or isn't.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 11:23:08 AMOh, yeah, well I definitely feel a lot of negative things about myself i would never feel about other people. And being trans def makes that worse, like in some ways I won't be ok with myself and won't think I deserve love or approval until I stop being trans. I guess that is internalized transphobia? :( that's weird.

Yep. That's transphobia directed at yourself. It's not something to be ashamed of, but it is something that I'd recommend addressing.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 11:23:08 AMWe are sort of working on feeling worthy though, like building resources, it's just really hard because I stop believing those positive things unless I am constantly reminded.

It gets easier the more you keep at it and I'd recommend exploring what works for you. For me, the generic tricks I was taught didn't do much, but I found that figuring out who I am and that I really like myself helped a lot. There was a self esteem group in my city that helped a great deal with that. I could share some of the things we did if you like.

What is so very wrong with being transgender?

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 10:35:54 AM
Yeah I sort of feel like people here can be just as oppressive as the cis world in an opposite way *sometimes*. Probably just because everyone is trying so hard to validate themselves and everyone wants to have the real trans truth. Maybe it is well meaning or they just want to feel valid, but it is still oppressive. IDK. I agree trans is not bad. I don't think that at all.  I just wonder if people are as happy as they say they are. And maybe they are... I just am really biased so it's hard to believe. Well, at any rate i feel bad for trans people because I can't see the trans community becoming a normal part of the cis world. I mean to the extent that gay people have for example, because being gay is a lot more straightforward, being trans is just really anything somebody wants to be gender wise and I don't think cis people get that at all. I mean I am very used to it and supposed to be a part of it and I still don't get it. I guess it's too much/too comfusing for me. ;O;

Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

Good rant. You bring up some good points and share some of my frustrations with the community.

I don't understand either why many say they hate gender roles but they confine to a role themselves.

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 15, 2014, 12:02:49 PM
I don't understand either why many say they hate gender roles but they confine to a role themselves.

Can't speak for anyone, but sometimes I feel this way due to fear and an obsession with being seen as who I am. I hope it lessens. It's difficult to deal with.

Quote from: Edge on March 15, 2014, 11:41:07 AM
Yep. That's transphobia directed at yourself. It's not something to be ashamed of, but it is something that I'd recommend addressing.
It gets easier the more you keep at it and I'd recommend exploring what works for you. For me, the generic tricks I was taught didn't do much, but I found that figuring out who I am and that I really like myself helped a lot. There was a self esteem group in my city that helped a great deal with that. I could share some of the things we did if you like.

Yeah, if you would be willing to share that would be great. (: I find it really hard to know who I am and what I really like too. Well, I'll think I did but it changes so much. Sadly there is no skills group in my area.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 15, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

Yeah, that is true. I was thinking about that the other day when I told my therapist I didn't want people to know about me being trans and she said, well, I don't know what's normal but I really can't imagine anyone would be able to tell. I realized once again that everyone else just sees this girl and none of what I'm feeling inside. I mean just last week they even looked at all my abdominal organs with ultrasound and still never knew I am not a girl. They didn't think about it at all. You never know for sure who that person could be and how much they are suffering with it (or not), and they are certainly probably a lot less likely to out themselves over politics or whatever. I want to believe that is pretty normal but all I see is the community who actively seeks support and acceptance as openly trans. So, who knows...

I think it's hard though, well again I am projecting but no matter how much I fit in, the internal narrative is so hard to cope with, that's why i think people would seek support anyway. It's hard to manage being stealth and sane. You just have to be so unaffected by it all. It's like having chronic pain and never telling anyone. Always keeping your posture good and your energy up. People just don't normally have an experience like this and it is scary and hard no matter what. But, you're right. In the end it varies a lot. So I shouldn't say too much about everyone else, that's just how it feels to me.

I blame our overly-gendered society, personally.

It's always trying to box us in to boxes of "male" and "female" based on gender expression... trying to say that boys have to like masculine things and girls have to like feminine things, along with all of the connotations that come with it. We've internalized these expectations after a lifetime of being pressured into them, and thus can fall into the same trap, just in reverse. Once we stop pretending to be stereotypical men, we rush into the box of trying to be a stereotypical woman, or vice versa, trying to fit in.

Where really, gender identity has nothing to do with gender expression. Gender identity is a medical phenomenon, and it's about which body your mind is programmed to feel 'right' in.

But again, our society's understanding of gender is still severely restricted. It views physical sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation as all being a continuum, where one being different automatically brings the others into question. Which is why feminine-expressing men are often teased for supposedly being gay, masculine women are teased for supposedly being lesbians, trans women have their gender identity belittled if they dare mention that they're still into stereotypically-male things, and why when we say that our gender identity is different from our birth sex, people just automatically assume that now we'll magically start liking the opposite sex, and expressing ourselves in the stereotypical manner of that new sex, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us to fit in.

That's the problem here. It's that societal misunderstanding about what gender identity entails. The rest is just us trying to scramble to fit into this very wrong societal mindset.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 15, 2014, 12:29:24 PM
I blame our overly-gendered society, personally.

It's always trying to box us in to boxes of "male" and "female" based on gender expression... trying to say that boys have to like masculine things and girls have to like feminine things, along with all of the connotations that come with it. We've internalized these expectations after a lifetime of being pressured into them, and thus can fall into the same trap, just in reverse. Once we stop pretending to be stereotypical men, we rush into the box of trying to be a stereotypical woman, or vice versa, trying to fit in.

Where really, gender identity has nothing to do with gender expression. Gender identity is a medical phenomenon, and it's about which body your mind is programmed to feel 'right' in.

But again, our society's understanding of gender is still severely restricted. It views physical sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation as all being a continuum, where one being different automatically brings the others into question. Which is why feminine-expressing men are often teased for supposedly being gay, masculine women are teased for supposedly being lesbians, trans women have their gender identity belittled if they dare mention that they're still into stereotypically-male things, and why when we say that our gender identity is different from our birth sex, people just automatically assume that now we'll magically start liking the opposite sex, and expressing ourselves in the stereotypical manner of that new sex, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us to fit in.

That's the problem here. It's that societal misunderstanding about what gender identity entails. The rest is just us trying to scramble to fit into this very wrong societal mindset.

Thank you for sharing. Actually I agree with you that the stereotypes are too much.

But what I am still personally trying to understand is the gender identity thing, I don't exactly get what you mean by it. Is it just about the words man and woman, he and she, him and her?? Is it about being treated like one sex or the other? But again, what does that mean if it has nothing to do with stereotypes?

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 01:01:14 PM

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

Well, I think for a lot of people, it's a physical thing. Yes, I really hated hearing 'miss' or 'ma'am'. But that was nothing to being comfortable in my body. That was the main thing for me. I don't have a lot of attachment to 'being a man'. I just feel a lot more like myself with a flat chest and a beard. I don't know how to explain it. Even if people still saw me as female and still 'ma'amed' me, I'd have to have made the physical changes I made. I have no idea why that is. I just know that changing and showering have become less a chore. Before, showering to me was like climbing Mt. Everest. Changing clothes was hell. Now, it's nothing. That, at least, isn't a vanity thing. I'm a lot fatter than I was when I lived as female. I had a lot 'better body' as female. But I am worlds more comfortable with my body. With moving, sitting, walking, running, showering...
I could be on a desert island and never see another human being and still be a lot more physically and emotionally comfortable. It's really not about other people.

I could think of worse things than being trans, but I'm not going to bother with listing them.

I honestly, don't give a damn about what most of the world thinks about me. (Yeah, I know what you said about being an introvert and all that) but the truth of the matter is that if you don't develop thicker skin and a bit of a "screw you" attitude, you will be eaten alive. You don't even have to be trans to be in a situation like that. I have one family member that is handicapped and she has to put up with losers, schmucks and general wastes of life that screw with her. She just keeps going because that's all anyone can do.

I certainly don't consider myself to be a fake. Hell, that stupid facade that I put up years ago, THAT was fake. Aside from medical professionals, no one needs to know what the hell is going on in my pants anyway. Not to mention the fact that I have no desire to be with men because they make me want to vomit. (Only in the sense of being in a romantic relationship. I'm not the militant "anti-men" type.) I don't care about being with a woman because I simply don't care about sex and there would obviously be a roadblock here since most women would more than likely desire some sexual component to the relationship. Sure, there may be some exceptions out there, but I can't be bothered to look for them. I will have no problem living out the rest of my life alone. I enjoy my solitude and not having to deal with someone bugging me all of the time.

I don't see transitioning as being so horrible. Have there been some bumpy roads along this journey? You bet there has. Are there some things that I regret not doing? Sure. But you can be cisgender and have those same issues. Even with the problems that came along with this, I don't regret doing it. I would be a rotten corpse at this point if I didn't go ahead with transition a few years back and that is the reality of the situation.

As far as the trans community goes, Hell, I AM the trans community around here. The only time I get screwed with is if by some weird stroke of luck, I run into one of the three idiots that I used to hang with before they ditched me once I came out. Good riddance to 'em, I say. Every once in awhile I might have some stupid teenage skank that makes a snarky remark but, so what? Girls like that are usually pathetic losers anyway, therefore, their opinions mean nothing, zip, zilch, zero.

As far as "fitting in" is concerned: Even if I were cis, I still would never fit anywhere. Believe me, I've been around enough groups centered around many things and I discovered that I am always going to be that square peg in a world full of round holes.

I am who I am and that's all there is to it.

I don't give a damn about upholding stereotypes of any kind. I don't even pay attention to that crap to even know what to conform to in the first place. I do what I do, I live my life. That's it.

End of story.

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 01:01:14 PM
Thank you for sharing. Actually I agree with you that the stereotypes are too much.

But what I am still personally trying to understand is the gender identity thing, I don't exactly get what you mean by it. Is it just about the words man and woman, he and she, him and her?? Is it about being treated like one sex or the other? But again, what does that mean if it has nothing to do with stereotypes?

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

I don't pretend to speak for everyone here, because this is just my own experience with it...

To me, there were two parts to it... it was both a physical thing as well as a societal thing.

Physical:
My male body felt uncomfortable and "wrong" to me, and I found myself being jealous of the female body. Having body hair felt wrong. My voice changing felt wrong. Having male muscles felt wrong. I felt like my emotions were blunted, and like I should be having the emotional reactions to things that girls were having, and yet somehow they felt muted, foggy. Having male genitals felt wrong. Having a blocky male shape instead of a curvy female shape felt wrong. I wanted smooth legs, and female fat deposits, and I wanted a feminine face and a female body. And seeing a guy in the mirror felt wrong, and always made me feel depressed. These were all purely physical desires.

Societal:
I felt boxed in by the male social role. Because although I did have many stereotypically-masculine interests, I wanted to be able to wear more feminine clothing like short shorts, dresses, etc. I hated that as a male I was limited to only masculine activities and behaviors and interests. (less often than the physical desires, but they were there still.)

So for me, the main part of what I am calling "gender dysphoria" was the physical wrongness. I could not function normally because my body was incorrect on a medical level. My body felt like it was 'designed' to run on the hormones of the opposite sex, and to physically be the opposite sex. Were it not for this desire, then you're 100% right, I could have stayed male just fine, because my problem would have been solely based on societal standards of what men could do and what women could do. This is why cross-dressers exist. Because they enjoy expressing their femininity, but they don't have that innate "wrongness" physically, which would make them desire to actually have a completely-female body. In my case, though, it wasn't about that social part of it. It was rooted in a physical "wrongness" that told me that my body and mind were existing in a manner that was fundamentally wrong. And that is why I had to transition. There was no way that I could be physically male and be happy with my body or feel like I was "functioning" correctly, regardless of what my social gender presentation was.

To put it another way... here's a true story. I had a friend as a kid who eventually came out as gay. Watching my old birthday party videos, he was WAY more effeminate than I was. He bowled like a girl, talked like a girl, smiled like a girl, and was into way more feminine things than I was. My behavior was male-leaning androgynous, while his was definitively feminine. But again, masculinity/femininity and gender identity are independent variables. Despite his very female social tendencies, he identified as male. And although I was more androgynous than anything, I do identify as female. Which means that in an ideal world where there were no gender differences socially, I'd still identify as female, because my transness has nothing to do with whether I'm feminine or not. It's the same reason why there's many butch lesbians who are way more masculine than I am, and yet they still identify as female.

Again, that's my experience with it. Maybe for other people it is more about the social role. I don't know. I'm just going on my own experience.

Okay, so I understand you're unhappy and that totally gives you a right to vent, but speaking for everyone is kind of unfair, don't you think? Even WITH the trigger warning. You're invalidating the experiences of trans people that ARE happy and go on to live normal lives. Honestly you're invalidating everyone in every possible way. I'm a cis woman with a trans boyfriend, do your experiences give you the right to say he won't like me because I'm not a guy, I won't accept him ever, and we can't live a normal life together? I'm not trying to attack you at all, I just think you should consider how what you say can affect others sometimes. Speaking for yourself is fine, but saying EVERYONE is going to have the same results as you is a bit condescending and you don't have any idea how many people you could be offending and hurting by this. Someone could seriously be just at the beginning of their transition and hurting so badly because they don't think they could go on to have the life they want and you saying that they WON'T, end of, that very well could push them over the edge into doing something to themselves. Your experiences do not speak for everyone, and maybe you should be a little more careful, even if you are just venting. Just some food for thought. I'm done now.

@fa and carrie liz thanks for sharing. :) I get where you are coming from. It's not a body thing for me but I definitely have other body image issues and I know how painful that can be.

So I guess my only other question is, where do you think is the line between body dysphoria and gender? Are they very linked to each other for you guys or does the gender/social dysphoria happen mostly as an extension of your body image and how it relates to what you see in other people?

I guess what I'm getting at is, wouldn't it be better if people could change any aspect of themselves, body or whatever, freely? Without everything always being a package deal. Withiut people feeling pressured to change body, behavior, identity, presentation, records, things like that if it's only about one thing or another. Like, I ended up changing my body to fix almost purely social dysphoria. I think that was a mistake for me, I regret having grown breasts and stuff. But it's like, if you wrap up everything in "gender identity" I think it just reinforces stereotypes and makes people feel pressured to be a stereotype. That's just my opinion though.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on March 15, 2014, 02:39:44 PM
I could think of worse things than being trans, but I'm not going to bother with listing them.

I honestly, don't give a damn about what most of the world thinks about me. (Yeah, I know what you said about being an introvert and all that) but the truth of the matter is that if you don't develop thicker skin and a bit of a "screw you" attitude, you will be eaten alive. You don't even have to be trans to be in a situation like that. I have one family member that is handicapped and she has to put up with losers, schmucks and general wastes of life that screw with her. She just keeps going because that's all anyone can do.

I certainly don't consider myself to be a fake. Hell, that stupid facade that I put up years ago, THAT was fake. Aside from medical professionals, no one needs to know what the hell is going on in my pants anyway. Not to mention the fact that I have no desire to be with men because they make me want to vomit. (Only in the sense of being in a romantic relationship. I'm not the militant "anti-men" type.) I don't care about being with a woman because I simply don't care about sex and there would obviously be a roadblock here since most women would more than likely desire some sexual component to the relationship. Sure, there may be some exceptions out there, but I can't be bothered to look for them. I will have no problem living out the rest of my life alone. I enjoy my solitude and not having to deal with someone bugging me all of the time.

I don't see transitioning as being so horrible. Have there been some bumpy roads along this journey? You bet there has. Are there some things that I regret not doing? Sure. But you can be cisgender and have those same issues. Even with the problems that came along with this, I don't regret doing it. I would be a rotten corpse at this point if I didn't go ahead with transition a few years back and that is the reality of the situation.

As far as the trans community goes, Hell, I AM the trans community around here. The only time I get screwed with is if by some weird stroke of luck, I run into one of the three idiots that I used to hang with before they ditched me once I came out. Good riddance to 'em, I say. Every once in awhile I might have some stupid teenage skank that makes a snarky remark but, so what? Girls like that are usually pathetic losers anyway, therefore, their opinions mean nothing, zip, zilch, zero.

As far as "fitting in" is concerned: Even if I were cis, I still would never fit anywhere. Believe me, I've been around enough groups centered around many things and I discovered that I am always going to be that square peg in a world full of round holes.

I am who I am and that's all there is to it.

I don't give a damn about upholding stereotypes of any kind. I don't even pay attention to that crap to even know what to conform to in the first place. I do what I do, I live my life. That's it.

End of story.

Well I am really glad you found what works for you. I can definitely see how if you were less concerned with what people think then you would be fine being exactly who you are and not feel these pressures as much. I think that is awesome.

Quote from: LeosGirl on March 15, 2014, 11:10:16 PM
Okay, so I understand you're unhappy and that totally gives you a right to vent, but speaking for everyone is kind of unfair, don't you think? Even WITH the trigger warning. You're invalidating the experiences of trans people that ARE happy and go on to live normal lives. Honestly you're invalidating everyone in every possible way. I'm a cis woman with a trans boyfriend, do your experiences give you the right to say he won't like me because I'm not a guy, I won't accept him ever, and we can't live a normal life together? I'm not trying to attack you at all, I just think you should consider how what you say can affect others sometimes. Speaking for yourself is fine, but saying EVERYONE is going to have the same results as you is a bit condescending and you don't have any idea how many people you could be offending and hurting by this. Someone could seriously be just at the beginning of their transition and hurting so badly because they don't think they could go on to have the life they want and you saying that they WON'T, end of, that very well could push them over the edge into doing something to themselves. Your experiences do not speak for everyone, and maybe you should be a little more careful, even if you are just venting. Just some food for thought. I'm done now.

Well, I don't know if you read my other posts in the thread but I keep saying exactly that. I'm not speaking for everyone at all or anyone specific, just about things that I notice that happen sometimes or often. But not for everybody ofc. And also my own perspective which is definitely NOT the norm but I also wonder how many people feel like me at times and don't say it.

I'm sorry though, I was feeling reallyyyyy emotional when I wrote the first post so I do get why it seemed like too much. :/ Honestly I am really surprised people weren't more mad at me for it b/c I deserve it probably. But I am thinking clearer now. Though I do wanna say... IDK if you have been around here long but I wouldn't worry too much about some negativity giving people the wrong idea, it is usually overwhelmingly positive around here, tho then again this is the ARGH board lol. I think it is at least good for people to be able to read that it's not rainbows and butterflies for all of us... y'know? Being trans is absolutely not a walk in the park, trans people are very bad off statistically on like all counts and that is reality. But if they want encouragement again they will find lots of it here.

FWIW I used to be that person... really unsure about making the plunge to transition and just personally, I wish I had read more varying perspectives of transitions, because everyone seemed so amazingly positive. It felt like people were so encouraging and like, glorifying? Of transition that it gave me an unrealistic view of how i would feel. And a lot of people will act like there's no problems when they haven't even taken any steps to transition yet and may not have those experiences. But it's probably my fault for not being able to realize how I would end up feeling. :c

Quote from: sad panda on March 16, 2014, 12:44:10 AM
@fa and carrie liz thanks for sharing. :) I get where you are coming from. It's not a body thing for me but I definitely have other body image issues and I know how painful that can be.

So I guess my only other question is, where do you think is the line between body dysphoria and gender? Are they very linked to each other for you guys or does the gender/social dysphoria happen mostly as an extension of your body image and how it relates to what you see in other people?

Well, just from my observations, there do seem to be those with more body dysphoria and those with more social dysphoria. And it seems like a lot of times when a trans person's extremely desperate and near suicidal over waiting to transition, it's a body thing. I could be wrong. But I think the decision to transition is sometimes clearer for people with a lot of body dysphoria. And body dysphoria can be independent of the social thing. Like the person just can hardly stand to undress or shower because they see parts that just feel wrong. And nobody else is around. It's an internal thing.


About body dysphoria and gender - well, I'm not sure if there's a line between it. How I experienced body dysphoria was more like 'This feels really wrong' and not like 'I should be a guy and guys don't have tits, smooth faces, high voices, etc'. It was something a lot more primal? than that.

I guess I could describe both the body dysphoria and social dysphoria for me as an identity thing. How my body looked and how people saw me didn't feel like me. It was at odds with my mental image and personality. It didn't fit. Who I am is just better represented as a guy. Not because of social roles or masculinity/femininity. How I look now is just a lot closer to how I've always looked inside and I don't feel that disconnect anymore.

It's really hard to describe.

Quote from: sad panda on March 16, 2014, 12:44:10 AM
Well I am really glad you found what works for you. I can definitely see how if you were less concerned with what people think then you would be fine being exactly who you are and not feel these pressures as much. I think that is awesome.

Well, I was always that way. But once I came out several years ago, that all changed and I was extremely self conscious about everything. It took me quite awhile to get back to not caring about what others thought. That period in between was really rough, though. It's kind of weird, though, because now my parents tell me that I should care about what other people think. But they are weird like that. My family loves to give off mixed messages. I've never understood that but, whatever. They are going to do what they want. I tend to disregard them when they do that. Otherwise, it's just a friggin headache.

You bought up great points sad panda (I don't want to call you sad but it's your name... :/ ). It's stuff that I'm starting to see and have been thinking. You've written it quite nicely! Even though the odds may be against us, I keep on goin' cause it's my passion.

*hugs panda*

Quote from: sad panda on March 15, 2014, 12:28:47 PM
Yeah, if you would be willing to share that would be great. (: I find it really hard to know who I am and what I really like too. Well, I'll think I did but it changes so much. Sadly there is no skills group in my area.

I've currently got my head full of statistics and chemistry (midterms coming up), but I shall share them once I can focus.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 15, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

If what you are saying is true, then I've been conned by the TG community, especially MTF's.  I've actually admired FTM's in their honesty, the genetic female trans people (including bigender / genderqueer) have more striked me as representing the transgender spectrum than the genetic male side.  I think a lot of genetic male TS's are just more worried about not being accepted and thus not represent things accurately, at the expense of people like me, who are significantly more honest than average.  And I know that among people raised as female, there is just more honesty in general when it comes to intimate issues.

So here I am for more than 6 years questioning my own gender despite wanting to have breasts, a vagina, desiring to have sex only as a woman, and desiring to have a female looking body and that i happen to have a natural feminine personality (including feminine mannerisms), and being stuck in the mud due to the lack of honesty among MTF's.

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 16, 2014, 11:09:12 PM
^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. And it's also telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to being teased and ostracized for it. And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I agree completely.

Quote from: Katelyn on March 16, 2014, 10:41:35 PM
If what you are saying is true, then I've been conned by the TG community, especially MTF's.  I've actually admired FTM's in their honesty, the genetic female trans people (including bigender / genderqueer) have more striked me as representing the transgender spectrum than the genetic male side.  I think a lot of genetic male TS's are just more worried about not being accepted and thus not represent things accurately, at the expense of people like me, who are significantly more honest than average.  And I know that among people raised as female, there is just more honesty in general when it comes to intimate issues.

So here I am for more than 6 years questioning my own gender despite wanting to have breasts, a vagina, desiring to have sex only as a woman, and desiring to have a female looking body and that i happen to have a natural feminine personality (including feminine mannerisms), and being stuck in the mud due to the lack of honesty among MTF's.

I'm sorry, i don't exactly understand. Why does MTFs' honesty or dishonesty make you stuck??

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 16, 2014, 11:09:12 PM
^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I'm starting to wonder if this is actually true or not.

When I think back, there was certainly almost no pressure to be masculine, (I believe it is culturally almost perfectly acceptable to be unmasculine) and then i might have just imagined the pressure to not be feminine.

I mean, I didn't get to socialize much as a boy, but I would go to college classes with 20 or so boys in them in gender-neutrally styled (but obviously female cut/sized) women's clothes, with blown out shoulder length hair and oversized sunglasses. I was always the smallest boy and always thought to be the youngest. I was shy and gentle and a little serious, a little flirty. Nobody ever treated me the least bit poorly or made a single bad comment. Actually, the guy who sat next to me was always so excited about my body... lol. He was like 6'3 and 300 lbs and always commented (in a playful way) about my hair and my size. He even picked me up once.

I don't know, just an experience i had, in retrospect i wish I would have pushed the envelope more fashion-wise... more accessories, girlier bags and more feminine clothes. There was this fear that stopped me from going beyond andro femme but it wasn't cuz i had been given reasons to be afraid. It was just cuz of this cultural brainwashing that femininity is lesser. People didn't actually treat me that way when. i expressed femininity though. And if they tried to,get me to be more masculine, they gave up and moved on pretty quick when they realized it wasn't me and didn't suit me.

I also think part of this stuff is just a question of taste. Let's be honest, women's clothes don't always suit the male figure. It can look humorous because it's such a clash of expectations. But I think if it was always done tastefully most people wouldn't be shocked enough to care. But looking like a quarterback in drag is going to turn heads. It would turn heads if a cis girl looked that way too.

Idk, but again, I am not trying to say that pressure doesn't exist, I just personally never experienced more than a benign form of it, but yeah I only had a little socialization as a boy so.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 16, 2014, 11:09:12 PM
^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I feel like I should say something in response, but I honestly do not understand what you are saying so I can't.  What about what I said makes it feel like you've been duped?

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 16, 2014, 11:09:12 PM
^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."

I never thought of the difference between mtf and ftm in quite this way, but now that you mention it, I can kind of see what you mean.  A lot of the modern genderqueer people emerging on the scene are also FAAB.  In fact, from what I have read and seen, the overwhelming majority of genderqueer people are FAAB.  I've always seen that as an expression of the greater freedom that society gives to people who are FAAB.  But I never connected it with the differences between mtf and ftm individuals.  For what it's worth, I have a somewhat controversial theory that genderqueer is a more accurate description of most trans* identities.  I believe that more people do not state that they identify as genderqueer or otherwise non-binary because it just isn't as accepted and they do not understand the concept or feel the freedom to say so.  I believe this because, although I cannot know what is happening inside of people, I can see their actions via gender expression.  When we talk about that extremely masculine expressing transwoman, for example, that is not a binary female expression.  It's more of a mix.  And that's true even though the person may insist quite adamantly that they identify as 100% female no matter how much the gender expression fails to match the stated identity. 

What I don't understand about your post is that there is often mtf pressure put on people who DO conform precisely because of their conformity.  Like in my case, I am often assumed to be mtf and then criticized because I am "too much like a woman," "trans cis," "too gender conforming," or told "your super femme gender presentation might alienate some people."  These are all quotes.  So this suggests that at least some mtf individuals recognize gender conforming behavior and then punish it.  How does that fit in with the idea of mtf individuals being under pressure to conform and trying hard to do so?

Quote from: sad panda on March 17, 2014, 05:29:14 AM
I don't know, just an experience i had, in retrospect i wish I would have pushed the envelope more fashion-wise... more accessories, girlier bags and more feminine clothes. There was this fear that stopped me from going beyond andro femme but it wasn't cuz i had been given reasons to be afraid. It was just cuz of this cultural brainwashing that femininity is lesser. People didn't actually treat me that way when. i expressed femininity though. And if they tried to,get me to be more masculine, they gave up and moved on pretty quick when they realized it wasn't me and didn't suit me.

I also think part of this stuff is just a question of taste. Let's be honest, women's clothes don't always suit the male figure. It can look humorous because it's such a clash of expectations. But I think if it was always done tastefully most people wouldn't be shocked enough to care. But looking like a quarterback in drag is going to turn heads.

Doesn't this prove (or at least support) the point Carrie Liz was making?  Men's clothes don't always suit the female figure either.  In fact, a woman walking around in a men's shirt may be wearing garments that are comically large on her.  But it's still acceptable.  In fact, boyfriend styles are produced for women specifically to imitate men's clothing.

But the man wearing women's clothing does turn heads, is ridiculed, and often may be subject to violence.  There is no such thing as a style of clothing for men that imitates women's clothing.  At least so far as I know. 

Quote from: sad panda on March 17, 2014, 05:29:14 AM
It would turn heads if a cis girl looked that way too.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.  Did I mention that I never mastered passing as a guy? 

I have been harassed and come close to ending up in the hospital because of being seen as a woman walking down the street in a men's suit and tie.  And other people I know have had guns pointed at them and other such things for the same reason.  I am very aware that the life of a person seen as a non-conforming female is not easy. 

But the amazing thing is how seldom I and others had trouble.  The overwhelming majority of the time, I would have people do things like rush in front to open the door for me, say things in the elevator like "I think we need to let her out" and other such things.  It just wasn't remarked on.  It wasn't a big deal.  If I had been a man in drag rather than the other way around, I am not at all sure I'd have even been allowed into the building.  And I certainly don't believe I'd have received the courtesy that was shown.

Typically, people would very obviously read me as female and still be courteous and gentlemanly.  Or they'd stumble around because if how I was dressed and decide that I must be a guy because I'm somewhat tallish for a woman (I'm 5'9") and was wearing a suit and a tie.  But violence, harassment, etc. didn't seem to happen all that much.  I really didn't have all that many problems.  I doubt that it would have been like that for a crossdressing man.

By the way, sad panda, reading your posts here and elsewhere makes me wonder about something.  Please feel free to not answer if this is too intrusive.  But have you ever considered the possibility that you might have some sort of intersex issue going on?  The story you tell about your life and how you came to transition sounds very familiar in that respect . . . .

Edit:  I fixed a typo

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 17, 2014, 07:31:57 AM
I feel like I should say something in response, but I honestly do not understand what you are saying so I can't.  What about what I said makes it feel like you've been duped?

I never thought of the difference between mtf and ftm in quite this way, but now that you mention it, I can kind of see what you mean.  A lot of the modern genderqueer people emerging on the scene are also FAAB.  In fact, from what I have read and seen, the overwhelming majority of genderqueer people are FAAB.  I've always seen that as an expression of the greater freedom that society gives to people who are FAAB.  But I never connected it with the differences between mtf and ftm individuals.  For what it's worth, I have a somewhat controversial theory that genderqueer is a more accurate description of most trans* identities.  I believe that more people do not state that they identify as genderqueer or otherwise non-binary because it just isn't as accepted and they do not understand the concept or feel the freedom to say so.  I believe this because, although I cannot know what is happening inside of people, I can see their actions via gender expression.  When we talk about that extremely masculine expressing transwoman, for example, that is not a binary female expression.  It's more of a mix.  And that's true even though the person may insist quite adamantly that they identify as 100% female no matter how much the gender expression fails to match the stated identity. 

What I don't understand about your post is that there is often mtf pressure put on people who DO conform precisely because of their conformity.  Like in my case, I am often assumed to be mtf and then criticized because I am "too much like a woman," "trans cis," "too gender conforming," or told "your super femme gender presentation might alienate some people."  These are all quotes.  So this suggests that at least some mtf individuals recognize gender conforming behavior and then punish it.  How does that fit in with the idea of mtf individuals being under pressure to conform and trying hard to do so?

Doesn't this prove (or at least support) the point Carrie Liz was making?  Men's clothes don't always suit the female figure either.  In fact, a woman walking around in a men's shirt may be wearing garments that are comically large on her.  But it's still acceptable.  In fact, boyfriend styles are produced for women specifically to imitate men's clothing.

But the man wearing women's clothing does turn heads, is ridiculed, and often may be subject to violence.  There is no such thing as a style of clothing for men that imitates women's clothing.  At least so far as I know. 

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.  Did I mention that I never mastered passing as a guy? 

I have been harassed and come close to ending up in the hospital because of being seen as a woman walking down the street in a men's suit and tie.  And other people I know have had guns pointed at them and other such things for the same reason.  I am very aware that the life of a person seen as a non-conforming female is not easy. 

But the amazing thing is how seldom I and others had trouble.  The overwhelming majority of the time, I would have people do things like rush in front to open the door for me, say things in the elevator like "I think we need to let her out" and other such things.  It just wasn't remarked on.  It wasn't a big deal.  If I had been a man in drag rather than the other way around, I am not at all sure I'd have even been allowed into the building.  And I certainly don't believe I'd have received the courtesy that was shown.

Typically, people would very obviously read me as female and still be courteous and gentlemanly.  Or they'd stumble around because if how I was dressed and decide that I must be a guy because I'm somewhat tallish for a woman (I'm 5'9") and was wearing a suit and a tie.  But violence, harassment, etc. didn't seem to happen all that much.  I really didn't have all that many problems.  I doubt that it would have been like that for a crossdressing man.

By the way, sad panda, reading your posts here and elsewhere makes me wonder about something.  Please feel free to not answer if this is too intrusive.  But have you ever considered the possibility that you might have some sort of intersex issue going on?  The story you tell about your life and how you came to transition sounds very familiar in that respect . . . .

Edit:  I fixed a typo

Well, yeah, I know it's a huge double standard. I can't disagree with that at all... hrmm, honestly I would be interested to hear what the femme ftm guys around here who pass as male have to say about it. I think it varies a lot by location as well. Ugh, nobody deserves to be threatened over this trivial stuff though. That makes me so ashamed for people as a whole :/

I can see how baggy clothes could also be comical to people, though I think we are more used to seeing that. Like, oversized is even a fashion. Baggy clothes at least can drape to the figure. But too small always looks bad. I don't think it's just about gender, for some weird reason people find that juxtaposition funny. Like a clown on a tiny bicycle or a big man with a little dog. Plus, male-style clothes come as small as you want because there's always the boy's section, and in my experience even an adult extra small isn't too baggy aside from in the waist, but women's clothes are really just not made to suit definitely male-sized/shaped bodies I think. The size range is much narrower.

I'm sure the way male crossdressers are received is caused by a mix of all this stuff though... but it was just like. At least in my own experience, I never had anyone freak out or even say anything. Probably because it didn't look unusual enough. Not that I was wearing skirts or dresses or anything though. They might not have realized i was wearing women's clothes at all but I thought the cuts got pretty blatant. I mean one of my jackets had princess seams and a drawstring around the hips. I think i could compromise for a sort of preppy businessy 20 something wardrobe if i were a boy again. Sort of ann taylor-ish. Don't know how it would go over but I guess most likely i just wouldn't pass as a boy. i just can't do men's clothes, I got so tired of trying to fit them when I don't even like the styles available.

Hmm well about my body though, I have had that suggested a lot of times but ultimately I just don't know. there is zero doubt that I didn't develop normally cuz all the males in my family are 5 or 6" taller and much larger than me but I don't actually know why. I identify a lot with what some other IS people have told me about their lives but yeah. But on paper I'm trans right now either way which i guess is why I am struggling.

Anyway... I just really want to see all these double standards and oppressive thinking change... it makes me so sad and unsure of what to do with myself :( I never know what fears are reasonable and what is just the spotlight effect so right now I just feel stuck as a girl. I was thinking if I could make it to your support group, that would be a first place to try a boy presentation! :)

Quote from: sad panda on March 17, 2014, 09:44:23 AM
Hmm well about my body though, I have had that suggested a lot of times but ultimately I just don't know. there is zero doubt that I didn't develop normally cuz all the males in my family are 5 or 6" taller and much larger than me but I don't actually know why. I identify a lot with what some other IS people have told me about their lives but yeah. But on paper I'm trans right now either way which i guess is why I am struggling.

Some intersex people are also trans* identified.  Some are not.  Some identify as strictly male or female.  Some don't.  And intersex is a pretty broad category that includes more than just ambiguous genitals.  Not everyone realizes that.  But like I said, your story rings familiar in that way. 

Quote from: sad panda on March 17, 2014, 09:44:23 AM
Anyway... I just really want to see all these double standards and oppressive thinking change... it makes me so sad and unsure of what to do with myself :( I never know what fears are reasonable and what is just the spotlight effect so right now I just feel stuck as a girl. I was thinking if I could make it to your support group, that would be a first place to try a boy presentation! :)

I feel kind of a bit similar.  A part of me would like to try a male presentation from a place of curiosity.  But another part of me is too scared to do it now.  And another part of me is pretty content with having finally landed in a place that feels comfy and therefore is too disinterested and lazy to bother.  The scared and lazy tend to outweigh the curious. :)

But yes, by all means come.  We're all about including the * in trans*.  If transportation is a problem, let me know where you're coming from via PM and I can see if I can arrange some help.  The ability to do that is kind of spotty, but sometimes we can either arrange a ride with someone or help figure out the transit links.  And there is space to change if traveling in one presentation or another is uncomfortable or unsafe.