Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Not sure whether this is even worthy of a topic. But I've been feeling lately like there really isn't much on here from an 'assigned at birth female point of view'. I mean sure, there are plenty of other guys on here. But most are early in transition and when I was at that point I didn't think I had anything to say on the female experience either. Believe me, I had very little interaction with females pre-transition and am lacking some significant socialization. But I still know what it feels like to be seen as female, and especially an attractive female. And I even was kinda sexist - I hung around only guys and bemoaned the very idea of a female cop frisking me or female judge sentencing me. If you asked me back then, I'dve said women seemed more mechanical and less human (except of course for my mother).

But I'm not that kid anymore, I've transitioned. When I was early in transition, I got a lot of tips from trans women here. Stuff I couldn't possibly know simply because I hadn't lived as male. I just feel alone and not listened to when I try to offer the same. And I often see very skewed ideas of womanhood here. And over and over on these forums, we hear how advantageous it is for AFAB persons, how much freedom we have, etc. And how awful it is to grow up male and have all these restrictions. But we never hear the reverse. It's true female born persons have certain freedoms but there are also a lot of limitations. I may have been technically permitted to wear whatever I wanted, but I certainly did not grow up free.

It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when it is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

To add: a lot of what people think of when they think of female privilege or the advantages of being a woman are mainly conferred on young, beautiful women. Sure, if you're between 16 and 25 and have a rocking body and face, you've got some advantages. But ask a 40 year old woman or a 20 year old 200 lb whale whether this holds true. Ask the 40 year old or the 20 year old 'whale' whether she can wear whatever she wants.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 03:29:02 PM
To add: a lot of what people think of when they think of female privilege or the advantages of being a woman are mainly conferred on young, beautiful women. Sure, if you're between 16 and 25 and have a rocking body and face, you've got some advantages. But ask a 40 year old woman or a 20 year old 200 lb whale whether this holds true. Ask the 40 year old or the 20 year old 'whale' whether she can wear whatever she wants.

I wasn't 'lucky' enough to be born an attractive female. In girl mode, I am bullied for my appearance by 'pretty' girls and it definitely seems like all the beautiful women have advantages.
At times, I even think girls can be a lot meaner and more critical than guys.

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 18, 2014, 03:35:23 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 03:29:02 PM
To add: a lot of what people think of when they think of female privilege or the advantages of being a woman are mainly conferred on young, beautiful women. Sure, if you're between 16 and 25 and have a rocking body and face, you've got some advantages. But ask a 40 year old woman or a 20 year old 200 lb whale whether this holds true. Ask the 40 year old or the 20 year old 'whale' whether she can wear whatever she wants.

I wasn't 'lucky' enough to be born an attractive female. In girl mode, I am bullied for my appearance by 'pretty' girls and it definitely seems like all the beautiful women have advantages.
At times, I even think girls can be a lot meaner and more critical than guys.

Oh definitely. More evil for sure.

Its hard for me, born something other than female (grrr), to comment.  I think a lot of it is how we were brought up by our parents who saw us as one gender or the other.

Anyone whose body is something other than the "ideal" has issues about gender advantages.  Its hard to see the advantage that others think we have, no matter which gender, we were born and raised to think its normal.

Ahhh to have been born correct.  :)

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
Not sure whether this is even worthy of a topic. But I've been feeling lately like there really isn't much on here from an 'assigned at birth female point of view'. I mean sure, there are plenty of other guys on here. But most are early in transition and when I was at that point I didn't think I had anything to say on the female experience either. Believe me, I had very little interaction with females pre-transition and am lacking some significant socialization. But I still know what it feels like to be seen as female, and especially an attractive female. And I even was kinda sexist - I hung around only guys and bemoaned the very idea of a female cop frisking me or female judge sentencing me. If you asked me back then, I'dve said women seemed more mechanical and less human (except of course for my mother).

Well, I think it deserves a thread . . . I've wanted to start one addressing what you are saying, but I haven't and won't.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
But I'm not that kid anymore, I've transitioned. When I was early in transition, I got a lot of tips from trans women here. Stuff I couldn't possibly know simply because I hadn't lived as male. I just feel alone and not listened to when I try to offer the same. And I often see very skewed ideas of womanhood here.

When I hear transwomen talk about womanhood or femininity, the things they say are often bizarre and sometimes even insulting.  I often want to stop them and ask whether they have ever even been around a woman.  In truth, most MAAB persons have not spent time around women unless they were trying to date them.  And they certainly have not spent time actually listening to women talk about their lives or watched the experiences women have or paid any attention to their daily lives.  MAAB transwomen are no different in this way and I find that it often shows.  Very strongly.  In ways subtle and overt.  I'm at a point now that when some transwoman tells me about their "natural femininity," I just don't believe them. 

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
And over and over on these forums, we hear how advantageous it is for AFAB persons, how much freedom we have, etc. And how awful it is to grow up male and have all these restrictions. But we never hear the reverse. It's true female born persons have certain freedoms but there are also a lot of limitations. I may have been technically permitted to wear whatever I wanted, but I certainly did not grow up free.

I think that's true.  There is a different set of freedoms and restrictions on each side of the fence.  But I will say in the defense of those who talk about them in the way you describe, that having the right set of freedoms and limitations can, itself, feel freeing.

I find the clothing thing very strange.  Why can't so many transwomen seem to ever bring themselves to wear pants?  Most FAAB persons wear pants most of the time.  Frankly, skinny jeans are awesome.  The way they feel on your legs and the way they make your legs look is way better than men's jeans have to offer.  But there is often a strange fixation on clothing that I don't understand . . . .

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when it is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

Who knows indeed?  It's really hard to say about that . . . I wonder if the tendency of genderqueer persons to be FAAB sheds any light?

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 03:29:02 PM
To add: a lot of what people think of when they think of female privilege or the advantages of being a woman are mainly conferred on young, beautiful women. Sure, if you're between 16 and 25 and have a rocking body and face, you've got some advantages. But ask a 40 year old woman or a 20 year old 200 lb whale whether this holds true. Ask the 40 year old or the 20 year old 'whale' whether she can wear whatever she wants.

I think there is much truth to this.  But, again, I'm not sure why clothes are so important here.  There's a lot more to being a woman than the clothes.  I wonder if the constant fixation on clothes as such an important part of being a woman has anything to do with the skewedness of perceptions of womanhood?

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 03:36:47 PM
Oh definitely. More evil for sure.

Can I add b*tchier to the list?  I usually don't use that word, but sometimes it is the only one that fits.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 03:36:47 PM
I wasn't 'lucky' enough to be born an attractive female. In girl mode, I am bullied for my appearance by 'pretty' girls and it definitely seems like all the beautiful women have advantages.
At times, I even think girls can be a lot meaner and more critical than guys.


Oh definitely. More evil for sure.

Evil? Yeah, sometimes.

I did try to live as a girl for a little while. You know, keeping up with the latest trends and all that and I was still bullied relentlessly for not being pretty enough. That is one of the reasons why I stuck with guys; they don't really care how you look as long as you're a chill guy.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 18, 2014, 03:37:02 PM
Its hard for me, born something other than female (grrr), to comment.  I think a lot of it is how we were brought up by our parents who saw us as one gender or the other.

Anyone whose body is something other than the "ideal" has issues about gender advantages.  Its hard to see the advantage that others think we have, no matter which gender, we were born and raised to think its normal.

Ahhh to have been born correct.  :)

Oh, I can definitely agree with that. The ideals for male and female are very narrow. And it's tough if you don't fit them. And I see what you're saying - a small, effeminate male probably rolls his eyes at male privilege as much as an 'ugly' girl does at female privilege.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 03:47:08 PM
Well, I think it deserves a thread . . . I've wanted to start one addressing what you are saying, but I haven't and won't.

When I hear transwomen talk about womanhood or femininity, the things they say are often bizarre and sometimes even insulting.  I often want to stop them and ask whether they have ever even been around a woman.  In truth, most MAAB persons have not spent time around women unless they were trying to date them.  And they certainly have not spent time actually listening to women talk about their lives or watched the experiences women have or paid any attention to their daily lives.  MAAB transwomen are no different in this way and I find that it often shows.  Very strongly.  In ways subtle and overt.  I'm at a point now that when some transwoman tells me about their "natural femininity," I just don't believe them. 

I think that's true.  There is a different set of freedoms and restrictions on each side of the fence.  But I will say in the defense of those who talk about them in the way you describe, that having the right set of freedoms and limitations can, itself, feel freeing.

I find the clothing thing very strange.  Why can't so many transwomen seem to ever bring themselves to wear pants?  Most FAAB persons wear pants most of the time.  Frankly, skinny jeans are awesome.  The way they feel on your legs and the way they make your legs look is way better than men's jeans have to offer.  But there is often a strange fixation on clothing that I don't understand . . . .

Who knows indeed?  It's really hard to say about that . . . I wonder if the tendency of genderqueer persons to be FAAB sheds any light?

I think there is much truth to this.  But, again, I'm not sure why clothes are so important here.  There's a lot more to being a woman than the clothes.  I wonder if the constant fixation on clothes as such an important part of being a woman has anything to do with the skewedness of perceptions of womanhood?

Can I add b*tchier to the list?  I usually don't use that word, but sometimes it is the only one that fits.

When I visit the MTF side of the board, I'm always kind of confused. Being a woman isn't all about wearing dresses, high heels and looking flashy; at least I think so. The women I know don't focus on their clothing unless they're going to some event or something.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 03:47:08 PM

Well, I think it deserves a thread . . . I've wanted to start one addressing what you are saying, but I haven't and won't.

Really? <does happy dance at not being alone> lol

QuoteWhen I hear transwomen talk about womanhood or femininity, the things they say are often bizarre and sometimes even insulting.  I often want to stop them and ask whether they have ever even been around a woman.  In truth, most MAAB persons have not spent time around women unless they were trying to date them.  And they certainly have not spent time actually listening to women talk about their lives or watched the experiences women have or paid any attention to their daily lives.  MAAB transwomen are no different in this way and I find that it often shows.  Very strongly.  In ways subtle and overt.  I'm at a point now that when some transwoman tells me about their "natural femininity," I just don't believe them.

Yes, and sometimes there are some insulting things said that few probably pick up on. One possible explanation is the power differential. Males are not trained to understand or anticipate the needs of females but females are trained to accommodate and understand males. Basically, women are trained to understand men much more than they are trained to understand women. This is more than just brain gender.

If you were a slave on an 1800s US plantation, you'd receive certain training. (not equating women to slaves, but they still grow up as lesser than males) Hence, there probably is a big difference just based on status from birth. Someone transitioning as a teen or adult to a woman is just never going to have that short straw experience someone born a girl does. It's a 50/50 roll of the dice. And from a societal and historical perspective, tails (female) you lose. That alone is huge. And accounts for a lot.

EDIT: Adding...

I think this is where some rad fems are coming from (though I do not agree with them). We really can't just erase the fact to be female is to be a minority. To be female is to have a lesser status all over the world and all throughout remembered history. So, I think where some of them are coming from is that this minority status, this 'bad roll of the dice' is very important to the female experience. Just like you really can't separate the experience of being Black in the US with what that means for the individual in terms of history and minority status. Because that history and minority status is a huge part of Black identity in the US. And the same for other minorities.

So, unwittingly, trans women are coming into a minority identity after the fact. And however horribly they were treated, they don't know what it is to grow up recognized by the world as having that minority identity. It's really not as simple as gender, because female is a lesser, minority status and always has been. So basically when someone male is going on about horrible their life was - it comes off like a white man going on about how he lives in a trailer. Sure, we get it, he's poor, his life sucks but that has f*** all to do with racism.

I have a little different perspective I suppose 'cause my life was rather strange. I identified as female from earliest childhood, all my early friends were female, and I think I just confused people who thought I was supposed to be male - I certainly didn't fit "the boy stereotype" in any way. I sort of fell in middle ground and by age 5 or 6 other kids referred to me as "it". Neither stereotype was totally open to me but when I transitioned at 24 the door to any "male privilege" slammed shut but the door to woman's life was wide open. I lost whatever latitude I had to venture beyond stereotypes for a long time and only with the more liberal views of recent decades has that situation changed. It still raises eyebrows when I dabble in a "traditional male interest". I also (sometimes) have friends comment "Why don't you dress up a bit?" LOL!

In 40 years I haven't see much in the way of "female privilege" but often ran into the closed door of "male privilege". I don't think either sex has all that much freedom in general society.

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 18, 2014, 03:54:59 PM
When I visit the MTF side of the board, I'm always kind of confused. Being a woman isn't all about wearing dresses, high heels and looking flashy; at least I think so. The women I know don't focus on their clothing unless they're going to some event or something.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

By the way, I really appreciate you saying that!

Seriously.  Most women wear pants most of the time.  (I practically live in skinny jeans).  And aren't all that flashy.  It seems like maybe a lot of trans women's expressions of what is described as femininity come from drag culture, which is very flashy . . . But it's a parody of femininity rather than an authentic expression of femininity.  A lot can be said about how MAAB don't learn these things growing up, so they don't have any other place to go.  But that's not entirely true.  Women are all over the place.  Go hang out with them.  Really listen.  You'd learn a lot. 

I'm not sure what it says that so many transwomen are so vocal about their desire but yet so unwilling to spend time and pay attention to the people who are already doing it and have a lot of practice.  It seems to me to say something very bad when transwomen aren't willing to learn about womanhood from women.  I'd imagine that a person who brings that attitude into any sort of life as a woman is also setting themselves up for trouble.  Because men are going to have trouble relating to them in anything other than a sexual way and they (the transwoman) are unwilling to relate to women in any other way themselves.  So that doesn't leave a great many places to turn when you really just want to socialize with someone by chatting over coffee without an agenda.  Is this why so many of them stay so long in the trans* community and socialize by circulating from one group to the next?

I'm also not sure what it means that I take so much criticism from transwomen for being . . . (This amazes me) . . . "Too much like a woman."  It's like many--not all, but a large chunk--aren't really serious when they say they want to be women.  Maybe they want to crossdress full time or change their bodies, but they don't want to fully embrace what life is as a woman in this world.  And so they criticize anyone who rings too authentic?

I don't feel comfortable giving transition advice to people.  The one piece of advice I do give on occasion is to befriend women.  A common response is "but what if I'm attracted to them?"  I guess my response to that is that if you want to be one, then it might be useful to start seeing women as something more like human beings and less like sexual targets.  But girls learn their way from being around other girls, their mothers, and other women.  They don't learn by studying videos, textbooks, and private lessons.  I suspect that if transwomen spent more time around women they might learn an awful lot the same way.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 04:16:54 PM
Really? <does happy dance at not being alone> lol

lol thank you for making me smile :)

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 04:16:54 PM
Yes, and sometimes there are some insulting things said that few probably pick up on. One possible explanation is the power differential. Males are not trained to understand or anticipate the needs of females but females are trained to accommodate and understand males. Basically, women are trained to understand men much more than they are trained to understand women. This is more than just brain gender.

Agree. 

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 04:16:54 PM
If you were a slave on an 1800s US plantation, you'd receive certain training. (not equating women to slaves, but they still grow up as lesser than males) Hence, there probably is a big difference just based on status from birth. Someone transitioning as a teen or adult to a woman is just never going to have that short straw experience someone born a girl does. It's a 50/50 roll of the dice. And from a societal and historical perspective, tails (female) you lose. That alone is huge. And accounts for a lot.

There have been some discussions about male privilege and other issues that seem to boil down to a debate over who has it worse.  I wonder if it is okay to just notice the differences and acknowledge them without it becoming about who is more or less privileged.  I am thinking maybe that way we could steer clear of some of the bruised feelings and other issues that tend to sidetrack these threads otherwise?

Darn it. I wrote something and it disappeared.

On the formerly seen as an attractive female perspective... It's not all that fun being seen as an attractive female either. I may not look it now, but I used to be pretty attractive. I was treated like an object. It was like the only worth I had in people's eyes was because of my body. Specifically, what it could do for guys. A lot of my guy friends just pretended to be my friend because they wanted to screw me and would stop pretending if they couldn't, if I let them, or if they did it regardless. Others were only sort of friends with me because they were friends with my boyfriend, but they would shut me out. I still have hang ups about being seen as attractive.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

By the way, I really appreciate you saying that!

Seriously.  Most women wear pants most of the time.  (I practically live in skinny jeans).  And aren't all that flashy.  It seems like maybe a lot of trans women's expressions of what is described as femininity come from drag culture, which is very flashy . . . But it's a parody of femininity rather than an authentic expression of femininity.  A lot can be said about how MAAB don't learn these things growing up, so they don't have any other place to go.  But that's not entirely true.  Women are all over the place.  Go hang out with them.  Really listen.  You'd learn a lot. 

I'm not sure what it says that so many transwomen are so vocal about their desire but yet so unwilling to spend time and pay attention to the people who are already doing it and have a lot of practice.  It seems to me to say something very bad when transwomen aren't willing to learn about womanhood from women.  I'd imagine that a person who brings that attitude into any sort of life as a woman is also setting themselves up for trouble.  Because men are going to have trouble relating to them in anything other than a sexual way and they (the transwoman) are unwilling to relate to women in any other way themselves.  So that doesn't leave a great many places to turn when you really just want to socialize with someone by chatting over coffee without an agenda.  Is this why so many of them stay so long in the trans* community and socialize by circulating from one group to the next?

I'm also not sure what it means that I take so much criticism from transwomen for being . . . (This amazes me) . . . "Too much like a woman."  It's like many--not all, but a large chunk--aren't really serious when they say they want to be women.  Maybe they want to crossdress full time or change their bodies, but they don't want to fully embrace what life is as a woman in this world.  And so they criticize anyone who rings too authentic?

I don't feel comfortable giving transition advice to people.  The one piece of advice I do give on occasion is to befriend women.  A common response is "but what if I'm attracted to them?"  I guess my response to that is that if you want to be one, then it might be useful to start seeing women as something more like human beings and less like sexual targets.  But girls learn their way from being around other girls, their mothers, and other women.  They don't learn by studying videos, textbooks, and private lessons.  I suspect that if transwomen spent more time around women they might learn an awful lot the same way.

lol thank you for making me smile :)

Agree. 

There have been some discussions about male privilege and other issues that seem to boil down to a debate over who has it worse.  I wonder if it is okay to just notice the differences and acknowledge them without it becoming about who is more or less privileged.  I am thinking maybe that way we could steer clear of some of the bruised feelings and other issues that tend to sidetrack these threads otherwise?

Yes, it is very true. Many women don't even like to wear dresses or a ton of makeup; I like girls better in sweatpants, messy hair and no makeup anyways. :) Natural beauty.

Femininity is not all about clothes and trying to look as flashy and attention grabbing as possible. Yes, some women do like to wear dresses, skirts and makeup a lot but I think being a woman is so much more than that. I go on the MTF board and see ladies trying to look all fancy but I think being a woman is about natural beauty, being strong, caring and understanding among other things. Being a woman didn't fit me physically or emotionally, but I love women and I do admire them. :)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM

There have been some discussions about male privilege and other issues that seem to boil down to a debate over who has it worse.  I wonder if it is okay to just notice the differences and acknowledge them without it becoming about who is more or less privileged.  I am thinking maybe that way we could steer clear of some of the bruised feelings and other issues that tend to sidetrack these threads otherwise?

Well, I'm never one to get into the Oppression Olympics, but I do think it's important to acknowledge female as a minority status. It doesn't mean any one individual has had it worse. Undoubtedly, there are many males (and/or trans women) who had it worse than me. But to me, it's like arguing that I once owned trailer in a race debate. I wasn't born Black in the US and I will never know what that's like. And respectfully, regardless of their history, I don't think anyone who wasn't assigned female at birth knows what it is to grow up female.

Quote from: Edge on March 18, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
On the formerly seen as an attractive female perspective... It's not all that fun being seen as an attractive female either. I may not look it now, but I used to be pretty attractive. I was treated like an object. It was like the only worth I had in people's eyes was because of my body. Specifically, what it could do for guys. A lot of my guy friends just pretended to be my friend because they wanted to screw me and would stop pretending if they couldn't, if I let them, or if they did it regardless. Others were only sort of friends with me because they were friends with my boyfriend, but they would shut me out. I still have hang ups about being seen as attractive.

Yes!!!

And now that I've used that one word to make this a sort of on topic post, I would like to just add that I've been very frustrated with this site and the inability I've found to talk about my issues and what is on my mind.  I've been thinking more and more about just walking away.  But I am just about squealing with delight over this thread because it gives me the first chance I think I've ever had to talk about this issue . . . Which is something that really stirs up a lot of feeling for me that I don't get to express.  I'm biting my tongue a lot, but I'm glad for the chance to at least talk about it a little and I'm glad I haven't given up and walked away.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 05:48:16 PM

Quote from: Edge on March 18, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
On the formerly seen as an attractive female perspective... It's not all that fun being seen as an attractive female either. I may not look it now, but I used to be pretty attractive. I was treated like an object. It was like the only worth I had in people's eyes was because of my body. Specifically, what it could do for guys. A lot of my guy friends just pretended to be my friend because they wanted to screw me and would stop pretending if they couldn't, if I let them, or if they did it regardless. Others were only sort of friends with me because they were friends with my boyfriend, but they would shut me out. I still have hang ups about being seen as attractive.

Yes!!!

And now that I've used that one word to make this a sort of on topic post, I would like to just add that I've been very frustrated with this site and the inability I've found to talk about my issues and what is on my mind.  I've been thinking more and more about just walking away.  But I am just about squealing with delight over this thread because it gives me the first chance I think I've ever had to talk about this issue . . . Which is something that really stirs up a lot of feeling for me that I don't get to express.  I'm biting my tongue a lot, but I'm glad for the chance to at least talk about it a little and I'm glad I haven't given up and walked away,

That's awesome hon! Really, I'm glad. I've held myself in a lot. Especially since I've been admin. As mod, I really didn't.  :laugh: But really we need your perspective. And really anyone who will talk about female issues. Female issues are trans issues. Most people here either are or have spent time as women. Women's issues are trans issues.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PMThere have been some discussions about male privilege and other issues that seem to boil down to a debate over who has it worse.  I wonder if it is okay to just notice the differences and acknowledge them without it becoming about who is more or less privileged.  I am thinking maybe that way we could steer clear of some of the bruised feelings and other issues that tend to sidetrack these threads otherwise?

It's kind of ridiculous to argue about who has it worse. Wouldn't it be better to figure out what all the problems are and fix them?
I get this in rape conversations too. People keep talking as if only women are raped by only men. If someone pipes up that people of any gender can be raped by people of any gender, they suddenly get shushed by people pointing out how women are statistically raped more often and more often by men. Yes and that's bad. All rape is bad. Let's work on fighting against all rape, shall we? (Sorry I harp on this a lot.)

I don't think I see being female as a magical thing or inherently better.  It's just something that I feel suits me more.  As though it's more comforting and authentic.  That's not to say there are no struggles to being female.  Hell, in many ways, I'm sure people must think I'm crazy for exchanging "male" status with that of the average female's.  However, it makes sense for me to do this even if there are hardships. It's how I see myself and it makes me feel more comfortable.  then again, I haven't experienced enough to make a definitive statement in this area.

One thing that I would point out is that I think that both sides tend to forget how tough it is to be trans regardless of gender.  Growing up a young trans woman or transman is bound to have problems outside of the regular issues that both gender do face.  It makes the idea of being one gender inherently worse in it's nature because of the hardships and negative experiences.  In many ways, growing up male has it's hardships but it also has it's pluses.  It's just when you don't see yourself as male and can't really fit in well, growing up male isn;t the pleasure cruise that most men view it as.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 18, 2014, 06:15:26 PM
One thing that I would point out is that I think that both sides tend to forget how tough it is to be trans regardless of gender.  Growing up a young trans woman or transman is bound to have problems outside of the regular issues that both gender do face.  It makes the idea of being one gender inherently worse in it's nature because of the hardships and negative experiences.  In many ways, growing up male has it's hardships but it also has it's pluses.  It's just when you don't see yourself as male and can't really fit in well, growing up male isn;t the pleasure cruise that most men view it as.

Oh, I agree. Being trans sucks from either side. But being trans even though you don't want it, you are born assigned to one of two sexes. And if the sex is female, you have been assigned a minority status that means a ton for how you will be seen and treated in your early years. That's all I'm saying. Being trans either way sucks. But if you're assigned female at birth, you're assigned a minority status that means a lot. That is huge for your life. If you're internally female but assigned male, you escape this status no matter how horrible your life is. That's all I'm trying to point it. That it's different.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
That's awesome hon! Really, I'm glad. I've held myself in a lot. Especially since I've been admin. As mod, I really didn't.  :laugh: But really we need your perspective. And really anyone who will talk about female issues. Female issues are trans issues. Most people here either are or have spent time as women. Women's issues are trans issues.

I'm so excited that even though I don't believe in the reputation system I think I'm going to +1 you!

I believe there are no men's issues and no women's issues, no gay issues and no straight issues, no trans* issues, and no cis issues.  There are only human issues.  And, alas, a lot of human beings choosing to turn their backs on a lot of other human beings. 

After the last meeting of my org's support group, I ended up giving a huge to a transwoman who really epitomizes some of the critique that has been expressed in this thread.  And she just broke down sobbing in my arms.  And I just ended up holding her and letting her cry for the longest time.  This is one of those things that many transwomen don't seem to grasp.  Think about all the times your mother held you.  Women are expected to comforters and nurturers.  However you express it, the fact is that women are expected to be the ones who will care for others. 

In my case, I have an additional layer of that because I'm the head of the org, so of course everyone would expect me to look out for others anyway.  But of course I'm also a woman who worked with another woman to create an org that is all about . . . caring for others.  Woman stuff.  Something men might sometimes do.  But it's not the same and it's not expected to be the same. 

There is a certain measure of sacrifice in that.  And, unlike men who get lots of praise for it, most women don't get acknowledged because it's seen as a woman doing what a woman should do.  I don't feel "less than" for it, and I don't feel diminished by it because it fits very well with how I would choose to be.  In fact, I really don't feel like I'm forced to do it all.  I'm choosing to do it.  But I don't know if I would choose that if I had ever seen the world through the eyes that MAAB people seem to have so often have.

But one of the things I sacrifice is the same thing FA is talking about above.  I'm mom.  I'm expected to make everyone else feel better.  I have to hold in a lot and I don't get to talk about my issues.  And that doesn't change if I go anywhere else.  I'm still expected to be mom.  Until the only place left for me to go is here.  Nothing against here, but to me it's a resource of last resort.  I know this works better for many, and I don't mean that as a criticism of this site.  It's just that to me there is no substitute for face to face. :)

When I see transwomen come in, totally dominate the space, and fill it up so there's no room and no thought given to the needs of transmen, I sometimes think that is another expectation that they don't grasp.  A woman is expected to nurture and care.  Not dominate and push everyone else out.  That probably has a lot to do with why so many trans* women (and gay men and lesbians and so many others) find acceptance so much easier to gain from ciswomen than cismen as a rule.  The preprogrammed response is to support and care for the person. 

But if you don't have that, or at least a way of coping with that expectation, then a lot of what is expected of women is noticeably missing and wrong.  There is a very real stigma and consequence.  And lots of transwomen aren't programmed that way.

And then, of course, there are adverse consequences if you do nurture others too.  In that way it is sometimes seen as a no win scenario.  But again, I don't see it that way.  But that's a topic for another day.

Late to the party as usual, but I'll try to add some fresh thoughts.

Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Is being a woman better than being a man? Depends on what you want and who you are.

By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

[Quote and post Removed by OP]

Well, I really don't want to offend anyone, least of all you. But I think this is a big issue and I think it's at the heart of the rad fems' nastiness. (they're horrible; I don't condone them). If the sexes were equal, being trans probably wouldn't be seen as a big deal. But they're not. So we've got men born into women's status and women born into men's status. And it causes upheaval. Because those statuses are not equal.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 06:31:50 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
That's awesome hon! Really, I'm glad. I've held myself in a lot. Especially since I've been admin. As mod, I really didn't.  :laugh: But really we need your perspective. And really anyone who will talk about female issues. Female issues are trans issues. Most people here either are or have spent time as women. Women's issues are trans issues.

I'm so excited that even though I don't believe in the reputation system I think I'm going to +1 you!

I believe there are no men's issues and no women's issues, no gay issues and no straight issues, no trans* issues, and no cis issues.  There are only human issues.  And, alas, a lot of human beings choosing to turn their backs on a lot of other human beings. 

After the last meeting of my org's support group, I ended up giving a huge to a transwoman who really epitomizes some of the critique that has been expressed in this thread.  And she just broke down sobbing in my arms.  And I just ended up holding her and letting her cry for the longest time.  This is one of those things that many transwomen don't seem to grasp.  Think about all the times your mother held you.  Women are expected to comforters and nurturers.  However you express it, the fact is that women are expected to be the ones who will care for others. 

In my case, I have an additional layer of that because I'm the head of the org, so of course everyone would expect me to look out for others anyway.  But of course I'm also a woman who worked with another woman to create an org that is all about . . . caring for others.  Woman stuff.  Something men might sometimes do.  But it's not the same and it's not expected to be the same. 

There is a certain measure of sacrifice in that.  And, unlike men who get lots of praise for it, most women don't get acknowledged because it's seen as a woman doing what a woman should do.  I don't feel "less than" for it, and I don't feel diminished by it because it fits very well with how I would choose to be.  In fact, I really don't feel like I'm forced to do it all.  I'm choosing to do it.  But I don't know if I would choose that if I had ever seen the world through the eyes that MAAB people seem to have so often have.

But one of the things I sacrifice is the same thing FA is talking about above.  I'm mom.  I'm expected to make everyone else feel better.  I have to hold in a lot and I don't get to talk about my issues.  And that doesn't change if I go anywhere else.  I'm still expected to be mom.  Until the only place left for me to go is here.  Nothing against here, but to me it's a resource of last resort.  I know this works better for many, and I don't mean that as a criticism of this site.  It's just that to me there is no substitute for face to face. :)

When I see transwomen come in, totally dominate the space, and fill it up so there's no room and no thought given to the needs of transmen, I sometimes think that is another expectation that they don't grasp.  A woman is expected to nurture and care.  Not dominate and push everyone else out.  That probably has a lot to do with why so many trans* women (and gay men and lesbians and so many others) find acceptance so much easier to gain from ciswomen than cismen as a rule.  The preprogrammed response is to support and care for the person. 

But if you don't have that, or at least a way of coping with that expectation, then a lot of what is expected of women is noticeably missing and wrong.  There is a very real stigma and consequence.  And lots of transwomen aren't programmed that way.

And then, of course, there are adverse consequences if you do nurture others too.  In that way it is sometimes seen as a no win scenario.  But again, I don't see it that way.  But that's a topic for another day.

Oh yeah, you can tell the feminine souls from a mile away sometimes. Raised female or not.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PMI see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks.

I don't mean to argue and just playing the devil's advocate here. I've known, heard of, and read about some pretty horrible mothers.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
Late to the party as usual, but I'll try to add some fresh thoughts.

Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Is being a woman better than being a man? Depends on what you want and who you are.

By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

Oh, you're fine, hon. Sometimes I wonder if the joys of being female aren't best expressed by those who've arrived late. And I don't mean that in a condescending manner. I feel lucky to have escaped a lot of the stifling crap traditional boyhood has to offer.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
I hope I'm not one of those ThePhoenix talks about who knows nothing about real women and has never been around them. I feel like I've spent my entire male life drinking in whatever tidbits I can about the way women really are and what they really face. I feel like I got it about 80% right. Post-transition, some stuff surprises me, but mostly it's pretty much what I thought it would be.

For the record, I was not thinking of you when I posted that.  I make it a practice to avoid commenting on anyone specific.  I do not comment on people's presentation, etc. unless it is to (very rarely) give a compliment.  I figure that's a good way to avoid fights.  I'll call people out on some of their actions, but I'll sit on my hands and bite my tongue about presentation for good or ill because even compliments to one person may be taken by others as a condemnation by omission of them.  But I am not commenting one anyone's specific presentation nor am I in a position to assess whether you have or have not spent time with women (or men or raccoons).

With that said, I will admit that in this instance there is one transwoman who is very difficult for me to keep out of my head.  It was an individual that came to an outdoor picnic li attended ast year.  Before she came out to join the picnic, she spent two hours in the restroom applying makeup and getting dressed.  She wore ornate, blingy jewelry, and a formal gown.  To an outdoor picnic with barbecuing going on and games being played.  She didn't seem to notice that she was a teeny bit overdressed.  I love picnics, but I must admit that it has never occurred to me to wear something like that to one.  So unless you are that extreme, you can safely assume that I didn't have you in mind.

With that in mind, I do have a couple of thoughts on the rest of the post, not in the order originally written.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
Sorry, but being a woman IS magical. No one from either side of the aisle has posted anything in thousands of posts that has convinced me otherwise. I see what the mothers of the world do, the patience they show, the compassion they feel, the love they give, day in and day out, with very little thanks. Nothing I could achieve as a man could hold a candle to that.

Do you understand how this statement, undoubtedly intended as praise, could become limiting for women?  Yes, motherhood is magic.  But it's not all there is in life.  But if it truly is the best, greatest thing and so much greater than what men can do. . . . Isn't that what women should be doing then?  Making babies?  Because anything less is somehow lesser? 

I can't have kids.  It's not a trans* issue for me.  I just can't regardless.  So am I condemned to a diminished life?  Many women with infertility issues struggle with exactly that feeling.  Because they are taught that the highest, greatest good they can have in life is to have a child.  If womanhood is magic because of motherhood, as you say above, then what does that mean for women with infertility?  As a transwoman, you won't be able to have children either.  Does that mean you're not magic?

I'm sorry to pick on you.  I don't mean this to put you down at all.  I just ask these questions so that maybe we can start to think about how these things play out.  People perceived as female are powerfully affected by this very perception.  But MAAB trans* people seldom give them a second thought. 

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
By some accident of birth, being a woman moves me EXACTLY in the direction I want to move. With transition, I some howacquired the desire to adorn my body with flattering clothes (I do wear pants, but I prefer skirts or skinny jeans. Shows off my legs.) and jewelry. Sorry, but I'm pretty much ThePhoenix's incomprehensible stereotype of a transwoman. Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

Hey, I already said I live in skinny jeans too. :)  And for similar reasons.  My legs are one of my better features and skinny jeans do flatter them.  I also like the way they feel. 

I would never say that a person should not dress or express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.  But I would ask the following two questions:

(1)  Authentically what?  Being authentically you is the most important thing.  But it does beg the question of what that means?  Is it really authentic femininity or is it something else?
(2)  What's with all the focus on clothes?  Being a woman is about so much more.  So why are we so focused on talking about clothes largely to the exclusion of other things. 

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
The emotional changes are in the direction I want to move, as well. I love the fact that HRT has made me more patient, more accepting, and more tender.

I have to admit I don't know how to respond to this one.  I know that testosterone made me more uptight, but I don't remember it making me more tender.  This is a challenge for me to discuss in this way because the effects of estrogen feel more like baseline to me.  The effects of having taken T feel like changes.  E feels like undoing changes.  That makes it hard for me to really assess what is the impact of estrogen. 

I tend to agree with what Suzi said.  ^

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
Early on, I was given the advice that if I blend it will be easier to pass. I refused to take it. I found my own style which probably makes me stand out, but it also makes me feel like me.

Most of the stuff I've read about blending, which is to say, the guides and whatnot for presenting as female, seem to be all about becoming a living stereotype (I hate stereotypes). Maybe I've just had bad luck in finding good advice/guides, I don't know. I'll more than likely just do the same as Suzi and find my own style. Hell, I don't even like following character build guides (in online/offline games) and much prefer to make a character that is uniquely my own, so why would I do the real-life equivalent?

Socially, I've done a lot of observing, and fairly little practical. I blame it on several moves when I was a kid, and practically becoming a hermit as an adult, though I'm sure the relentless bullying had some impact too. If I'm lucky maybe that means I have less social programming to overcome.

Anyway, I tend to view the 'being female is magical' thing less literally than maybe some people interpret. I mean I don't imagine that transitioning to female is suddenly going to bestow magic powers on me or suddenly make everything all sunshine and rainbows, but *being* in a body that (finally) feels right for me, *feeling* comfortable in my body. That *will* be magical, to me at least.

Hopefully at least some of that was relevant, I'm down to my last coping mechanism which is essentially 'don't think' and years of shutting off my brain seems to have taken a toll.

Oh and if anyone (such as FA) wants to give any tips on how to present (convincingly) as a (non-stereotypical) female, you'll have my full attention. I'll never turn my nose up at advice from those with experience.

I don't know. I'm really trying not to offend anybody with this topic. I guess I'm just trying to say that gender isn't as simple as pink and blue. Because being born female is seen as being less. And growing up with that. And that part really can't be remedied. I'm male now, but I didn't grow up with that. I'm never going to have that. As worthless as it may seem to others who were assigned male at birth. No matter how great someone's parents are, they can't shut off society.

I wish gender were simple, equal. But it's not. We don't grow up the same, get the same messages. Growing up female is to get the constant message you are less, and less is ever expected of you. If you're good at anything, it's a shock and pleasant surprise.

Its your perspective and you have every right to express it.

Truthfully my sister would express the same thing, our mother didn't respect her, our mother always felt our older brother was more important and better than either of us.  My sister had to overcome many difficulties created by how our own mother treated her.

Sorry... I know I'm one of the people who is always posting about how FAAB have more freedom in terms of gender expression without being as ostracized by society.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'll admit, I can't help it. When you've spent your whole life idolizing everything about a certain gender, and hating everything about your own, it's hard to not be biased.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 07:26:25 PM
I don't know. I'm really trying not to offend anybody with this topic. I guess I'm just trying to say that gender isn't as simple as pink and blue. Because being born female is seen as being less. And growing up with that. And that part really can't be remedied. I'm male now, but I didn't grow up with that. I'm never going to have that. As worthless as it may seem to others who were assigned male at birth. No matter how great someone's parents are, they can't shut off society.

I wish gender were simple, equal. But it's not. We don't grow up the same, get the same messages. Growing up female is to get the constant message you are less, and less is ever expected of you. If you're good at anything, it's a shock and pleasant surprise.

I wouldn't deny that.  I think you have a point and most people here wouldn't really argue with it.  It's just that growing up as a transgirl in a boys world also presents it's own difficulties.  It may not always be as hard and the status aspect of society does tip in the "males" favor, but it doesn't mean all people assigned MAB had it necessarily easy.  I don't think that's what you saying at all, but it can be misinterpreted.   Being FAAB or MAAB are just different experiences that are unique in their own way, both were there own struggles and hardships.  Though I would agree that societally speaking men are often placed in a higher status for the sole purpose of their gender and there is no denying that it can have a major negative impact on those FAAB.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 18, 2014, 07:36:27 PM
Sorry... I know I'm one of the people who is always posting about how FAAB have more freedom in terms of gender expression without being as ostracized by society.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I'll admit, I can't help it. When you've spent your whole life idolizing everything about a certain gender, and hating everything about your own, it's hard to not be biased.

I think it's more of a matter that the social expectations for both genders are rigid in different ways.  For those that don't fit into the mold somehow, it can be fairly disturbing in many ways.  That in itself can cause someone to idolize the so called "opposite" because they feel a greater sense of belonging with them then where they were placed. 

Quote from: Jessika Lin on March 18, 2014, 07:26:00 PM

Oh and if anyone (such as FA) wants to give any tips on how to present (convincingly) as a (non-stereotypical) female, you'll have my full attention. I'll never turn my nose up at advice from those with experience.

Thanks hon.  :)

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 18, 2014, 07:29:54 PM
Its your perspective and you have every right to express it.

Truthfully my sister would express the same thing, our mother didn't respect her, our mother always felt our older brother was more important and better than either of us.  My sister had to overcome many difficulties created by how our own mother treated her.

Thanks hon.

I don't think I'm articulating this well. (Not relating to anyone's post).

Quote from: learningtolive on March 18, 2014, 07:40:56 PM

I wouldn't deny that.  I think you have a point and most people here wouldn't really argue with it.  It's just that growing up as a transgirl in a boys world also presents it's own difficulties.  It may not always be as hard and the status aspect of society does tip in the "males" favor, but it doesn't mean all people assigned MAB had it necessarily easy.  I don't think that's what you saying at all, but it can be misinterpreted.   Being FAAB or MAAB are just different experiences that are unique in their own way, both were there own struggles and hardships.  Though I would agree that societally speaking men are often placed in a higher status for the sole purpose of their gender and there is no denying that it can have a major negative impact on those FAAB.

Oh yeah. That's why I presented the example of the white dude in a trailer. Because talking about race and how it affects non-whites doesn't mean whites have it good. Nobody's saying that even if it sounds that way. Like, okay, say we have a male baby in a trailer being horribly abused. Talking about the sexism a little rich girl will experience doesn't diminish what he's going through. His being abused and her having a comparatively good life doesn't mean sexism isn't a thing. It's two different things. If that little girl has a better life than that little boy, it doesn't mean she didn't experience sexism. One has nothing to do with another.

I'm just saying being born female (and recognized as such) confers a minority status on its own regardless of who the person is or how he or she identifies. And regardless of whether a zillion male babies (no matter how they later identify) have horrible childhoods. And that it seems like everyone forgets about this.

So I am not sure what I'm going to write here but it may just be word vomit because something about this made me think about my past. I will never know what it was like for FAAB being treated as a "lesser" or a minority I know it is true I've seen it enough growing up spending time with the "jock" kids seeing how they treated women. It was awful and that isn't to say every guy is like that but I can see your point about being raised FAAB. Every person has their own hardships regardless of gender they've been assigned. I can add a bit to being treated as less than someone though. My "father" was never around. Gone before I can remember. My "dad" raised me and my brother his bio-son. I am four years older than him. I spent my whole child good trying to be as good as my little brother was in my "dad's" eyes. No matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked or how good I was at baseball (pretty good) I wasn't his child. I could see it when he looked at me. The way I could never be right or it was always let your brother win. I tried for years to win affection from that man. Despite signs that he was an awful human being. I know what it is like to not be seen for a full person. I would go into the expectations I had with sports but those ended when my shoulder got destroyed, but it's funny how people can get tossed away like a broken toy. Sorry for the rant/vomit. I will say I love listening to advice from others. Regardless of if I end up following it but different perspectives always help to form better picture of life.

Quote from: Hayley on March 18, 2014, 08:36:31 PM
So I am not sure what I'm going to write here but it may just be word vomit because something about this made me think about my past. I will never know what it was like for FAAB being treated as a "lesser" or a minority I know it is true I've seen it enough growing up spending time with the "jock" kids seeing how they treated women. It was awful and that isn't to say every guy is like that but I can see your point about being raised FAAB. Every person has their own hardships regardless of gender they've been assigned. I can add a bit to being treated as less than someone though. My "father" was never around. Gone before I can remember. My "dad" raised me and my brother his bio-son. I am four years older than him. I spent my whole child good trying to be as good as my little brother was in my "dad's" eyes. No matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked or how good I was at baseball (pretty good) I wasn't his child. I could see it when he looked at me. The way I could never be right or it was always let your brother win. I tried for years to win affection from that man. Despite signs that he was an awful human being. I know what it is like to not be seen for a full person. I would go into the expectations I had with sports but those ended when my shoulder got destroyed, but it's funny how people can get tossed away like a broken toy. Sorry for the rant/vomit. I will say I love listening to advice from others. Regardless of if I end up following it but different perspectives always help to form better picture of life.

That's okay, honey. I felt the same from my father. We have a lot better relationship now though, thankfully.

I wasn't good enough for my family either. My dad vocally expected me to get myself knocked up, thought I was into drugs, etc.

Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

Quote from: Edge on March 18, 2014, 09:07:37 PM
I wasn't good enough for my family either. My dad vocally expected me to get myself knocked up, thought I was into drugs, etc.

Sad, I'm sorry that you had to go thru that I really can't understand it when people are jerks like that. I was just saying that I watched someone get treated noticeably better than me by the man that raised us just because I wasn't truly "his". It wasn't like he abused me. He just made sure my brother was perfect before checking if I was ok. That's is really the only thing I was trying to say... I think. It was a bit rambly. The rest of my family treated me well I would say. Either way past is past and life moves on regardless of the role we play.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

I realize that you do not mean to offend or to call into the question the authenticity of trans women. The simple fact remains that I as a MAAB person did experience male privilege to some degree. and I do not know what it is like to grow up as a FAAB individual and never will beyond an academic level. I also that will always set me apart from my cisgendered sisters.

That being said, I do feel that there is an underestimation of the effect growing up MAAB with either a lack of masculinity or even feminine traits. My earliest memories were an intense paranoia that I wasn't "being a boy" right. 99% of the crap I took from peers growing up was my behaviour, not my appearance, and almost exclusively from the girls. It didn't help that teachers would either turn a blind eye or even contribute. Then of course there was the portrayal of trans feminine people in the media . . .

The thing for me was that "second class" seemed like one heck of a promotion over "bottom of the barrel".  For me that is something that I will likely carry through my life as well.

Quote from: ErinM on March 18, 2014, 09:59:44 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
Just to clarify (dude! you're replying to your own topic!):

I'm not in any way implying or saying trans women are any less female for not having grown up girls. I don't believe that at all! But I do think that having female status affects trans men before transition and trans women after transition. It's a lesser status any way you cut it in this society - anywhere in the world. And that does affect us. No matter how masculine I was as a guy, I was affected by female status and no matter feminine any trans woman was as a child, she escaped it.

I realize that you do not mean to offend or to call into the question the authenticity of trans women. The simple fact remains that I as a MAAB person did experience male privilege to some degree. and I do not know what it is like to grow up as a FAAB individual and never will beyond an academic level. I also that will always set me apart from my cisgendered sisters.

That being said, I do feel that there is an underestimation of the effect growing up MAAB with either a lack of masculinity or even feminine traits. My earliest memories were an intense paranoia that I wasn't "being a boy" right. 99% of the crap I took from peers growing up was my behaviour, not my appearance, and almost exclusively from the girls. It didn't help that teachers would either turn a blind eye or even contribute. Then of course there was the portrayal of trans feminine people in the media . . .

The thing for me was that "second class" seemed like one heck of a promotion over "bottom of the barrel".  For me that is something that I will likely carry through my life as well.

Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 10:17:24 PM
Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps I've been failing to see then analogy because the difference between racism and domestic abuse is quite a bit wider then what wee are talking about here. Those address two different issues, where as gender issues seem to always boiled down to how society values masculinity in the right context, namely males.

Where I'm going with this is that while being female is considered the lessor in society, being a feminine MAAB is even lower in many regards. At least that was my prospective growing up.

Quote from: ErinM on March 18, 2014, 10:44:54 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 10:17:24 PM
Well, like I said I'm not diminishing that experience. And I would never want to - I have very close male family members who suffered a lot as children, including hideous sexual abuse. And I would never in a million years want to trade that with them. I'm just saying being born and designated female is a specific experience that carries a stigma to that person. And it really has nothing to do with how any male or perceived male children were treated. Like, okay - say there is a white child being horribly abused in a trailer. This has absolutely nothing to do with the racism a non-white child is experiencing at school. Okay, the white kid has a horrible life. That has nothing to do with the slurs on a minority kid's locker at school. See what I'm saying?

Perhaps I've been failing to see then analogy because the difference between racism and domestic abuse is quite a bit wider then what wee are talking about here. Those address two different issues, where as gender issues seem to always boiled down to how society values masculinity in the right context, namely males.

Where I'm going with this is that while being female is considered the lessor in society, being a feminine MAAB is even lower in many regards. At least that was my prospective growing up.

Well, what I'm saying basically is that white kids in the US may have horrible lives but that's different from racism. Like even if a male child is abused for being feminine, this is not quite the same thing as what it is to experience sexism for female children. Like in my example, the male child may have a harder life, but this doesn't mean the female child with a comparatively better life didn't experience sexism because she is female.

Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 10:57:12 PM
Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

I would agree that the experiences are not the same and would never mean to imply otherwise. However they do come from the same attitudes that society holds towards masculinity and femininity and I think that we could also agree on that.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when to is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

I guess I should have addressed this earlier as well to explain what I mean. It is because if the crap that I received that I did see a freedom in being female. For me it would have meant being able to grow up free to express who I was instead of learning to hate and despise it. By far the most difficult part of my transition has been letting go of all the inhibitions and everything I have done to attempt to suppress myself.

(Edited to fix autocorrect)

I don't think I look at my childhood with regret. While I did spend a lot of my early years praying I would wake up in a female body I think I've actually been pretty lucky. I had a family that loved me and I did have some honestly great times growing up.
But I can in all honesty say I don't know what it's like to be raised a female and the struggles that go with it. I know I had it pretty lucky because I didn't have to worry about my value being based off my looks. I didn't have to worry about some perverted old guys hitting on me.
Being a woman is hard and in the short time I have been living as one I can say without a doubt it's more challenging. Is it worth it to me yes because I believe I'm living my life as myself. But a few months living as a woman can't ever compare to a lifetime worth of experiences.
What I have found out is that unless your young and attractive men for the most part ignore you. I've experienced what it's like to be treated like your totally clueless and need a mans help.  ::) I could go on and I'm sure as the months turn into years I'll find plenty of other complaints. And I will put up with them just like any other woman. I may not have had an F on my birth certificate but I live as a woman and I am a woman. And while I know it's not all fun and games and it's certainly not about how I look or dress. But I do know I'm no better or no worse than any other woman I just have a little less experience.

Quote from: Heather on March 18, 2014, 11:36:50 PM
I don't think I look at my childhood with regret. While I did spend a lot of my early years praying I would wake up in a female body I think I've actually been pretty lucky. I had a family that loved me and I did have some honestly great times growing up.
But I can in all honesty say I don't know what it's like to be raised a female and the struggles that go with it. I know I had it pretty lucky because I didn't have to worry about my value being based off my looks. I didn't have to worry about some perverted old guys hitting on me.
Being a woman is hard and in the short time I have been living as one I can say without a doubt it's more challenging. Is it worth it to me yes because I believe I'm living my life as myself. But a few months living as a woman can't ever compare to a lifetime worth of experiences.
What I have found out is that unless your young and attractive men for the most part ignore you. I've experienced what it's like to be treated like your totally clueless and need a mans help.  ::) I could go on and I'm sure as the months turn into years I'll find plenty of other complaints. And I will put up with them just like any other woman. I may not have had an F on my birth certificate but I live as a woman and I am a woman. And while I know it's not all fun and games and it's certainly not about how I look or dress. But I do know I'm no better or no worse than any other woman I just have a little less experience.

Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean.  :)

Quote from: ErinM on March 18, 2014, 11:28:00 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 10:57:12 PM
Like, okay even if the feminine boy is seen as 'lower' and horribly abused, it's not quite the same thing as being seen as female. I mean, he may have a worse life. But the very reason he is seen as lower is because he is seen as acting as someone with lower status - someone female. This does not mean he receives the same as a child who is actually seen as female. Maybe he receives worse, I don't know. In any event, whatever his behavior, he is not born with second class status as a female is.

I would agree that the experiences are not the same and would never mean to imply otherwise. However they do come from the same attitudes that society holds towards masculinity and femininity and I think that we could also agree on that.

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 02:20:45 PM
It seems like some here think being female is freedom, the holy grail, when to is not any easier than being male. Just different. Or maybe it is for people who weren't indoctrinated as female. Without all the programming and limitations instilled, I'd probably be a different person. Being female looks pretty good if you erase all that 'second class citizen from birth' stuff. If I had 20+ years of male training, being female would probably look good to me too. And maybe the reverse for me. Maybe I feel more free to be myself because I haven't had all that specific male training to stifle my spirit. Who knows?

I guess I should have addressed this earlier as well to explain what I mean. It is because if the crap that I received that I did see a freedom in being female. For me it would have meant being able to grow up free to express who I was instead of learning to hate and despise it. By far the most difficult part of my transition has been letting go of all the inhibitions and everything I have done to attempt to suppress myself.

(Edited to fix autocorrect)

I can relate to that. For me, there were a lot of limitations in being female. And while controversial, acknowledging this is part of my own journey. I could go on and be all macho and act like being born female never affected me, but that would be a lie. And it's not just being the wrong gender. It's being born the 'wrong' gender. As in the second. The other. The one the Bible says was made as an afterthought because the first one was lonely. So we were made out of the rib of, you know, the hero. The important one. This is huge. And heavily impacts every child born as this 'other'. Whether they have a 'female' brain or not.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean.  :)

I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade. :)

I think it would be undeniable that FTMs would have a certain enhanced perspective on how it is to be raised a girl, and the reverse is true of the MTFs....I don't think that necessarily lends itself to be a totally accurate perspective however, I know I picked up a few things being raised as a boy, but I could hardly be said to really know the true male experience. I am not trying to knock anyone's experience just saying that we view things thru the lense of our own life.

I am just saying that I mean, I am not even accurate to things in my own life, I can pull out a journal from 5 years ago and read about something, and be just absolutely amazed by how inaccurate my current memories are of that event. This is why, I am hesitant to take anything people say, especially those in a different stage of life than I am in, at face value. This also makes me....skeptical about even my own advice if it is based on something not current.

I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can now and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

I think we have lots to learn from each other, but I wouldn't go so far as to be critical of the views others hold on what being a woman means to them even if it isn't what being a woman means to me.

Quote from: Heather on March 19, 2014, 12:17:19 AM

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
Well, at least someone is getting good use of it - being female, I mean.  :)

I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade. :)

Ending up female is definitely lemons! lol Just kidding.

Oh, I'm probably going to wake up in the morning and want to delete this thread. But honestly, I feel it has been therapeutic. My identity is of a man, so yeah it pains me to even talk about being born female and how that affected me. Gah! It seems the longer I live as a man, the less attached to it I am. I'm just attached now to my humanity and my history. Knowing myself. Healing myself. Understanding what I do and what I think. And why. This being born female thing and the affect it had on me, well I can't deny it. I've got to examine it. Understand it.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 12:29:18 AM
I just don't have a choice in the matter. I like to think life handed me lemons might as well make lemonade. :)


Ending up female is definitely lemons! lol Just kidding.

Oh, I'm probably going to wake up in the morning and want to delete this thread. But honestly, I feel it has been therapeutic. My identity is of a man, so yeah it pains me to even talk about being born female and how that affected me. Gah! It seems the longer I live as a man, the less attached to it I am. I'm just attached now to my humanity and my history. Knowing myself. Healing myself. Understanding what I do and what I think. And why. This being born female thing and the affect it had on me, well I can't deny it. I've got to examine it. Understand it.

FA I hope you don't delete this thread it's a good one. We try so hard to move on we sometimes forget that the gender we were born into is always going to be a big part of our lives. The time I spent being raised as a male helped shape the woman I am today. And I doubt you would be the man you are today if it wasn't for that time spent as a female. To be honest I wish they're was more men like you that can understand a woman's perspective.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
I can relate to that. For me, there were a lot of limitations in being female. And while controversial, acknowledging this is part of my own journey. I could go on and be all macho and act like being born female never affected me, but that would be a lie. And it's not just being the wrong gender. It's being born the 'wrong' gender. As in the second. The other. The one the Bible says was made as an afterthought because the first one was lonely. So we were made out of the rib of, you know, the hero. The important one. This is huge. And heavily impacts every child born as this 'other'. Whether they have a 'female' brain or not.

I can appreciate what you are saying. Putting up with sexism and being forced into a gender role you don't identify with would serve as a double-whammy.

I do think its great that you had the fortitude to bring this topic up. It has given me more to think about as I try to reconcile my identity and my upbringing.

Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 12:19:54 AM
I think it would be undeniable that FTMs would have a certain enhanced perspective on how it is to be raised a girl, and the reverse is true of the MTFs....I don't think that necessarily lends itself to be a totally accurate perspective however, I know I picked up a few things being raised as a boy, but I could hardly be said to really know the true male experience. I am not trying to knock anyone's experience just saying that we view things thru the lense of our own life.

I am just saying that I mean, I am not even accurate to things in my own life, I can pull out a journal from 5 years ago and read about something, and be just absolutely amazed by how inaccurate my current memories are of that event. This is why, I am hesitant to take anything people say, especially those in a different stage of life than I am in, at face value. This also makes me....skeptical about even my own advice if it is based on something not current.

I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can now and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

I think we have lots to learn from each other, but I wouldn't go so far as to be critical of the views others hold on what being a woman means to them even if it isn't what being a woman means to me.

Well, you're right, I think trans folk probably do have a skewed perspective. But cis or trans, female born people do get a different experience. The main point I'm trying to make is there is a difference. That female born kids (regardless of internal wiring) are seen and treated differently. And it's more than just gender. Boy babies and girl babies are not on an equal plane. There is a difference growing up in the world when you're seen as having drawn the short straw. That's all I'm saying.

Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination (http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination)

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on March 19, 2014, 02:19:59 AM
Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination (http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination)

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

That was touching. But it doesn't have much to do with the topic.  :-\  I'm not talking male privilege. I'm not talking anything about what trans girls experience at all. I'm talking about what it's like to be born into the 'lesser sex'.  As much as they may have wished to be, trans girls are not born into this. I'm not doubting that being a trans girl is different than the cis male experience. But it is not the same as being recognized at birth as belonging to the lesser sex.

ahhh sorry, should of made a thread for that like my gut was telling me too smh.. But yeah I agree with what you're talking about. It is true, just hope society moves to true equality one day..

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on March 19, 2014, 03:05:01 AM
ahhh sorry, should of made a thread for that like my gut was telling me too smh.. But yeah I agree with what you're talking about. It is true, just hope society moves to true equality one day..

You can still make the thread. I bet it'll be interesting. That was an interesting link. :)

Quote from: Heather on March 19, 2014, 12:41:05 AMTo be honest I wish they're was more men like you that can understand a woman's perspective.

I think you should be careful when assigning a "woman's perspective" to a trans man. I certainly would never tell a trans woman that she has a male perspective. She may know what it's like to be treated as male, and she may know how to talk the talk, but that certainly doesn't mean she has a male perspective.

People who know my history frequently tell me that I have a female or woman's perspective...but they are clearly just assuming that I do. I figure that if I did have such an understanding, I wouldn't have needed to transition. I didn't have a woman's perspective because I was not a woman. Even when I was trying very hard, I was just going through the motions and didn't understand how "other" women could do what I was trying to do or think the way I knew I was supposed to think. People familiar with my past merely assume that because I was seen as female, I experienced life as a woman. I didn't. I experienced life as an FTM trans person. So I didn't have a woman's perspective. Other guys' mileage may vary, of course.

The funny thing is that people, mostly women, who DON'T know my history often see specific things I say and do as very typically male. The women I meet tend to be pretty free with remarks such as "Of course you've never felt that way--you're a man!" and "Typical male thing to say." But pre-transition, I received criticism or stunned silence when I said these "typically male" things--because I didn't have the typically female perspective.

Very interesting thread, I, as some of you know am a professionally powerful woman, would I have been that if I was natal female?

I don't think I would have.

My fellow natal female professionals do struggle in what is still a male dominated life. We, they do have to try harder to have a voice and push ourselves forward. I'm NOT saying that my fellow male professionals are in anyway demeaning of me, or of natal females. But they do carry the aura of respect far easier than the women.

Why? We have similar training, we have similar IQ, yes there is a career difference in that many natal females have taken time off to have and to nurture children. The so called career interruption that many men (sadly for some) miss. But in virtually all cases none of the woman I know regret this.

Looking at my transgender colleagues who are powerful, defined as having high profile jobs and who are involved in high profile events, are transgender women who had 'male' upbringing, and all went through male puberty and hence their bodies are to some extent destroyed as being feminine because of it. Few of us (the people I know) pass well as feminine women, and few of us care.
The powerful FtM men I know are fewer, and blend into the masculine life far better than the women do into female society.

It raises a question, do transgender women push themselves harder to succeed and transmen are more content to blend in? Or is it a reflection of societal upbringing as boys and girls that define what we do in life?

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on March 19, 2014, 02:19:59 AM
Grr I had a long post I had saved but looks like I didn't save all of it. It's only half now. But basically it was just me going into detail as to how trans women issues share a lot of cis women issues...

Also I found this the other day I'll post an excerpt from it. Hope everyone reads this, it brought me to tears.


http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination (http://mysocalledqueerlife.tumblr.com/post/79636896701/cissexismandbiologicaldetermination)

"The problem here lies in one very flawed cissexist assumption: that a girl designated male at birth (a transgender girl) experiences puberty just like a boy designated male at birth (a cisgender boy).  It is also implies that trans girls, and subsequently trans women, experience their bodies in the same way that cisgender boys and men do —- which we already know is not true.   This type of logic is biological determination at its best, and transmisogyny at its worst."

Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 03:39:27 AM
Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.

Please forgive me if I'm being a bit dense here, but I'm just not getting it. How can one say that not experiencing the minority status of being born the female sex not imply some kind of privilege?  I could be wrong, but I always thought that was a large part of male privilege - not being thought of as somehow lessor.

Generalizations lead to assumptions that apply to only a few in 'the middle of the road', like a Bell Curve. The more broad the generalization, the fewer it applied to. And generalizations are used to separate the "us" from the "them" which often leads to a disparity when in fact each and every one of us is our own "us" and are unique in our lives and experience.

Quote from: Cindy on March 19, 2014, 03:13:55 AM
Very interesting thread, I, as some of you know am a professionally powerful woman, would I have been that if I was natal female? I don't think I would have.

That is something I realize a LONG time ago! Had I been born with normal plumbing, I doubt I would have made it through high school - I was madly in love at 13, starved for love, and would probably have been pregnant by 16. By this point in life (in my 60s) I would be a grandmother many times over and probably a great grandmother.

With the 'normal' not being an option, my situation forced me down a different path. By age 8 or 9 the situation forced me to set aside my quiet and affable nature and become more assertive because I could see nobody was going to help me survive. It also forced me to become more studious because so little was know about transsexualism in the 1950s and 60s so I needed to become the authority. I had to learn to be resourceful and to be persuasive to get others to see what I needed in order to survive and to encourage other to do for me what I could not do for myself (like hormones).

I did not know it at the time but what I had to learn to survive were also very effective skills for succeeding in business which took me from poor and humble roots to considerable success (all as a woman in a man's profession) with "people skills" and smarts.  ;) That would not have happened if I had been normal-born.

QuoteIt raises a question, do transgender women push themselves harder to succeed and transmen are more content to blend in? Or is it a reflection of societal upbringing as boys and girls that define what we do in life?

I think I WISH I had had either societal upbringing! Growing up "it" had neither "privilege" and to some extent the prohibitions of both, but that was my life and there is no doubt it shaped much of who I became.

(I did not meet my birth mother until I was 40 and when we met I found myself to be a carbon copy of her in every way - same personality, same disposition, same character traits. It makes me wonder IF childhood experience is that formative or if there is a large portion of biology in there? LOL!)

Quote from: Arch on March 19, 2014, 03:13:13 AM
I think you should be careful when assigning a "woman's perspective" to a trans man. I certainly would never tell a trans woman that she has a male perspective. She may know what it's like to be treated as male, and she may know how to talk the talk, but that certainly doesn't mean she has a male perspective.

People who know my history frequently tell me that I have a female or woman's perspective...but they are clearly just assuming that I do. I figure that if I did have such an understanding, I wouldn't have needed to transition. I didn't have a woman's perspective because I was not a woman. Even when I was trying very hard, I was just going through the motions and didn't understand how "other" women could do what I was trying to do or think the way I knew I was supposed to think. People familiar with my past merely assume that because I was seen as female, I experienced life as a woman. I didn't. I experienced life as an FTM trans person. So I didn't have a woman's perspective. Other guys' mileage may vary, of course.

The funny thing is that people, mostly women, who DON'T know my history often see specific things I say and do as very typically male. The women I meet tend to be pretty free with remarks such as "Of course you've never felt that way--you're a man!" and "Typical male thing to say." But pre-transition, I received criticism or stunned silence when I said these "typically male" things--because I didn't have the typically female perspective.

I'm sorry I just meant what it feels like to be treated like a woman. I wasn't saying ftm's know how a woman thinks. I don't understand how men think but I do know what it's like to be treated like one. I was trying to make a remark that if men knew what it was like to live as a woman maybe they wouldn't treat women the way they do. 

Quote from: ErinM on March 19, 2014, 06:26:21 AM

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 03:39:27 AM
Hi I just read more of this. Not sure this shouldn't have its own thread. But I do think there's a misunderstanding here. Maybe it's on the part of cis women going on about male privilege. Maybe not. But it's not about male privilege. It's about being born and growing up as female in a world where that has a minority status. If it were just about gender, if the sexes were equal, it would be different. But they're not. And I think maybe this is the point these cis women are trying to make when they mention male privilege. But male privilege really isn't a good explanation for it. Because it's not about what people born male experience; it's what they don't experience.

Please forgive me if I'm being a bit dense here, but I'm just not getting it. How can one say that not experiencing the minority status of being born the female sex not imply some kind of privilege?  I could be wrong, but I always thought that was a large part of male privilege - not being thought of as somehow lessor.

Well, it could be seen that way. But it's really just the absence of something. I just think the focus on male privilege kind of clouds the point and puts male born people on the defensive for no reason. Then it becomes a divisive thing (and leaves people like me who need to reconcile all this with a male identity with nobody to talk to lol).

I just... well, we talk about gender on these forums all day and about masculinity and femininity. But we never talk about what being female means in society. We talk a lot about the baggage of male life and everything males have to live up to. But not the baggage of female life (well aside from me recently lol). I've recently discovered that some of my more insidious hang-ups can probably be traced to female programming. But I have nowhere to go and no one to talk to. So I end up ranting and probably not coming off so well, offending everybody in the process.  :laugh:

Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 12:19:54 AM
I also feel fairly similar to Suzi's points; and I would like to point out, a large part of the reason why we obsess over clothes is the same reason why so many college kids binge drink- because we can nows  and we couldn't before. I bet, that most of these women will be totally obsessed with clothes and self expression for a few years, and much like those college kids, will mature and find it plays a lesser role in their lives as other things gain more traction in their lives.

The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 19, 2014, 08:26:29 AM
The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

Of course we need to be careful of generalisations, but to be honest I have not noticed transgender women standing out in dress style. Yes I do adore being taken to a party and dressing up, but sadly that doesn't happen every week. I do usually wear a skirt/top or dress, and rarely jeans, but few women I mingle with wear any thing different. Maybe it is an age and profession thing.

I ride my bike to work in my lycra, and yes I like to look good, but the guys do as well, <cough> even the ones who really should not wear lycra. At work I change into my work clothes, usually as I said a skirt and top or a dress.
But I don't stand out from other women, in fact I would be a little upset if I did, at a party bet your ass I want to stand out :laugh:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 19, 2014, 08:26:29 AM
The part of this thread that intrigues me is the part about transwomen having a "skewed" view of femininity and not the part about privilege or minority status.  I raised the clothing obsession as a part of that.  And I sort of agree with this point.  But doesn't that prove the point about transwomen having a very different (i.e. "skewed") view of femininity?

What I was trying to get at, though admittedly with poor articulation was that there isn't such a thing as one view of femininity and the obsessive part you singled out is more of a rational response to an exceptional situation.

I know lots of women, and men; almost all of them cisgender and they all seem to have vastly different ideas on not only what it means to be a man or woman but also what lessons they learned from thier own expierence. The way I look at it, if there is such massive variation there isn't really such a thing as a "normal cisgender perspective" to skew from. No one really owns what feminity or masculinity is, and certainly there is no such thing as a transgender or cisgender expierence, there are as many expierenced as there are people.

My feeling is that based on what I have observed which admitting my has to be flawed since it is a sample size of one, that societies role on getting women to internalize a "lesser" status has been vastly overstated as I know quite a few women with an attitude that makes them feel like they can do anything and for all of them it was caused by parents who instilled that attitude. Certainly there is pushback from society (I.e. They are called bossy among other B words). My point is a large part of what shapes your expierence isn't really controled by society at large. It by your internal family dynamics, they have many years to mold you before you go to school and get the perspective of society at large.

I am not trying to take from anyone's expierence, just saying that everyone's expierence is shaped and formed by a wide variety of circumstances and what each individual knows and understands about growing up as any gender might not be necessarily accurate to others. I am also not saying that your past has no impact on who you are, that would be ludacrus. Merely that while who I am might have been shaped by a male childhood that it isn't the same thing as even my brothers male childhood, even in the same household we had vastly different expierences and whilst there may be some commonalities one could point towns claim they are from the "male expierence" I don't think that is enough to categorically say there really is such a thing as a particular way boys or girls are raised.

I dont have a female perspective at all even tho i am pre everything, still questioning and very much still living in a female body :/ , i run away from conversations about clothes and makeup lol

Society seems accepting of tomboys and little girls who wont do girl things but its interesting that theres still not an equivalent really for boys who want to grow up with their feminine side showing.. If i had been born male and always felt female i really wouldnt see any kind of privilage to that only restriction and expectation.. Whereas ive been free to pretty much let my boyish side show the whole time and never had it make a difference to what i do. I love seeing you all having some of those male born restrictions lifting when you start your transitions :)

Thanks FA. :)

We really should hear more of a FAAB perspective here. Like beyond the FTM section :-\

I'm really not gonna say anything heavy handed personally. I don't know where I fit into this picture. But it's nice to read how everyone feels about this. I mean really feels, at least to some extent...

Edit:nvm I wrote more but I think it wasn't relevant

Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 09:32:03 AM

My feeling is that based on what I have observed which admitting my has to be flawed since it is a sample size of one, that societies role on getting women to internalize a "lesser" status has been vastly overstated as I know quite a few women with an attitude that makes them feel like they can do anything and for all of them it was caused by parents who instilled that attitude.

I don't think that's quite the same thing. I mean, I was a pretty tough bitch as a girl. It's not something that women go around thinking about having lesser status or anything. I never did. I never thought about any of this feminist stuff until now - years after transition.
But I do think being born into the 'lesser half' of humanity and all that means affects women growing up. How could it not?

I think this is a generally brilliant thread, and I've been impressed by so many of the fantastic insights here. (I'm also a trans woman with a long history of exploring/studying feminism [and a habit of dressing in jeans, T-shirt, and no makeup, heh] so I'm always interested in the different perspectives people who have "crossed the gender divide" bring to what precisely that divide IS and how life changes on the other side of it.) I grew up as a feminine boy who *identified as a boy* and ended up as a woman, and yes, personally, it was very different being treated as an effeminate cis boy than it was for my female classmates. Better in some ways, worse in others, because that's how privilege often works; there's disadvantages even to being on top of the heap, and sometimes they can loom large to someone who hasn't been on the bottom yet.

I absolutely experienced male privilege, and in many of the microaggression-related ways I still never noticed it until it disappeared (like the way nobody grants me personal space anymore). I expected the big stuff - like having trouble advancing in my career as a woman - but the tiny day-to-day things, while I knew they *existed,* I had no idea how exhausting it would be to be gnawed on by dozens of them in a single day.

However, FA, as a tiny nitpick, I think referring to a woman as a "whale" is kind of cruel. :( It's a valid point, but one that could be made without the insult.

I have read the first page of this thread, but sadly don't have the time to read the other pages right now. 

I just want to first thank FA for making this thread and for everyone adding their insights to it.  As a transwoman, I have been searching for a thread like this, and was even planning on starting one asking for insight and experience and help from FAAB side of things.  So this thread is great.

I guess I am a rarer breed of transwoman, in that I've always had equal amount of female friends as male and many times developed closer friendships with them.  This has helped greatly, as has a cis, but curious female friend who started a TG centric forum.  She has a sister who is trans.   This friend has sort of taken me under her wing and the knowledge shared has been immensely invaluable.  I honestly wish more of my friends were more open to being teachers like this.

It sucks that you have all had negative reactions to giving advice to transwomen, but please don't stop.  Even if the woman you gave the advice to rejects it, there are those like me, who want and value it.  It is not going to waste.

On the subject of clothes, I will say this.  It is not always a sexist mindset, it can be, but isn't always and is rarely that simple.  I think a lot of it stems from there not being an equivalent of a tomboy for MAABs.  While girls can move from a princess phase to a tomboy phase and explore all the facets of their personality as they grow up, we don't get to.  Those interests, don't go away simply because they are suppress and buried.  They simmer and remain like an inch that can never be scratched.  It becomes like a holy grail not always because of sexism or stereotyping, but because we couldn't simply swap the pants for a dress everytime we desired to wear one.  We had to supress that and bury it, and everytime it just added to the growing pile and now we get to, and we have sometimes 20 or 30 + years of repressed expression and desires that suddenly come pouring over us. 

It is said you have to ration how much food you give a a truly starving person, because if you don't, if you just give them food and let them self-ration they will overeat to the point of death.   Or consider the fact that most lottery winners declare bankruptcy.  Why?  Because we all have a list of things we would do if we were rich.  This list accumulates and grows.  Now suddenly they have the money, they can do all those things... And they do.  And eventually the money is gone, blown the list of wants and desires they waited forever to indulge. It is a lot like that.  And for many, self-rationing once they are free to put on feminine attire is impossible to do. 

Another aspect is fear.  There is real fear that is we don't put our femininity on full display (probably a better phrasing for that which I can't think of so I hope you get what I mean) that many will simply reject us as trans.  Not so much in the trans community, but outside it.  That if we don't visually show or if we still embrace some masculine or more than some, the reaction from many will be, Why become a woman then?  It sounds foolish, yet is no different than "Wait you like women?  Then why do you want to be one?" and vice versa.

We are a community of often fragile people with low self-esteem and as such, the fear of being rejected and not accepted is a strong one.  It is something I recognize in myself and stand guard from, so that these will not take over.  But not everyone sees them or can stop them from taking over.

Does sexism play a part?  Most likely, and probably often, but it isn't so simple.  I would argue that even in transwomen that show themselves to be sexist, it is much less about them only seeing women as a stereotype of femininity and emulating that, and more years and years of accumulated repressed desires and overwhelming fear of rejection if they don't act, dress or talk feminine. 

My two cents there.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 19, 2014, 02:05:37 PM
I have read the first page of this thread, but sadly don't have the time to read the other pages right now. 

I just want to first thank FA for making this thread and for everyone adding their insights to it.  As a transwoman, I have been searching for a thread like this, and was even planning on starting one asking for insight and experience and help from FAAB side of things.  So this thread is great.

Hope you'll still feel the same way after reading the rest. Or at least not hate me.  :laugh:
I was just talking to someone about this. I'm always nervous talking about things like this. For one thing, I'm a guy and feel weird talking about it. Like I've turned into some kind of feminist or something. Or that I'll come off as less male somehow. The thing is though - cis guys don't talk about this stuff because it doesn't concern them. They're not female and they never lived as female.

The other thing that always makes me feel bad talking about this kind of thing is the fear that somehow I'll make MAAB people feel bad or sound like I'm accusing them or belittling their experience or something. And a lot of you are my close friends. So I hate that this is such a loaded thing and that some rad fems have turned this around to attack trans women. When really, I just need to talk about things that are eating me up inside, that really bother me. If I'm ever to heal some of the most insidious hang ups I have - very toxic things that are crippling. I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect they're rooted in both trans and female issues. Toxic messages and programming. So, yeah that's where I'm at with this. If I get kinda ranty, I guess it's cause this stuff is really bugging me.

Anyway, I never quite heard the below put that way before and think it might explain a lot.

QuoteI guess I am a rarer breed of transwoman, in that I've always had equal amount of female friends as male and many times developed closer friendships with them.  This has helped greatly, as has a cis, but curious female friend who started a TG centric forum.  She has a sister who is trans.   This friend has sort of taken me under her wing and the knowledge shared has been immensely invaluable.  I honestly wish more of my friends were more open to being teachers like this.

It sucks that you have all had negative reactions to giving advice to transwomen, but please don't stop.  Even if the woman you gave the advice to rejects it, there are those like me, who want and value it.  It is not going to waste.

On the subject of clothes, I will say this.  It is not always a sexist mindset, it can be, but isn't always and is rarely that simple.  I think a lot of it stems from there not being an equivalent of a tomboy for MAABs.  While girls can move from a princess phase to a tomboy phase and explore all the facets of their personality as they grow up, we don't get to.  Those interests, don't go away simply because they are suppress and buried.  They simmer and remain like an inch that can never be scratched.  It becomes like a holy grail not always because of sexism or stereotyping, but because we couldn't simply swap the pants for a dress everytime we desired to wear one.  We had to supress that and bury it, and everytime it just added to the growing pile and now we get to, and we have sometimes 20 or 30 + years of repressed expression and desires that suddenly come pouring over us. 

It is said you have to ration how much food you give a a truly starving person, because if you don't, if you just give them food and let them self-ration they will overeat to the point of death.   Or consider the fact that most lottery winners declare bankruptcy.  Why?  Because we all have a list of things we would do if we were rich.  This list accumulates and grows.  Now suddenly they have the money, they can do all those things... And they do.  And eventually the money is gone, blown the list of wants and desires they waited forever to indulge. It is a lot like that.  And for many, self-rationing once they are free to put on feminine attire is impossible to do. 

Another aspect is fear.  There is real fear that is we don't put our femininity on full display (probably a better phrasing for that which I can't think of so I hope you get what I mean) that many will simply reject us as trans.  Not so much in the trans community, but outside it.  That if we don't visually show or if we still embrace some masculine or more than some, the reaction from many will be, Why become a woman then?  It sounds foolish, yet is no different than "Wait you like women?  Then why do you want to be one?" and vice versa.

We are a community of often fragile people with low self-esteem and as such, the fear of being rejected and not accepted is a strong one.  It is something I recognize in myself and stand guard from, so that these will not take over.  But not everyone sees them or can stop them from taking over.

Does sexism play a part?  Most likely, and probably often, but it isn't so simple.  I would argue that even in transwomen that show themselves to be sexist, it is much less about them only seeing women as a stereotype of femininity and emulating that, and more years and years of accumulated repressed desires and overwhelming fear of rejection if they don't act, dress or talk feminine. 

My two cents there.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 02:23:06 PM
Hope you'll still feel the same way after reading the rest. Or at least not hate me.  :laugh:
I was just talking to someone about this. I'm always nervous talking about things like this. For one thing, I'm a guy and feel weird talking about it. Like I've turned into some kind of feminist or something. Or that I'll come off as less male somehow. The thing is though - cis guys don't talk about this stuff because it doesn't concern them. They're not female and they never lived as female.

The other thing that always makes me feel bad talking about this kind of thing is the fear that somehow I'll make MAAB people feel bad or sound like I'm accusing them or belittling their experience or something. And a lot of you are my close friends. So I hate that this is such a loaded thing and that some rad fems have turned this around to attack trans women. When really, I just need to talk about things that are eating me up inside, that really bother me. If I'm ever to heal some of the most insidious hang ups I have - very toxic things that are crippling. I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect they're rooted in both trans and female issues. Toxic messages and programming. So, yeah that's where I'm at with this. If I get kinda ranty, I guess it's cause this stuff is really bugging me.

Anyway, I never quite heard the below put that way before and think it might explain a lot.

There is a far cry from saying that Transwomen didn't have the experience of growing up female (which sadly was far from our choice) and saying that because of that, transwomen aren't women, which seems to me to be the rad fem attitude.  A lot simply come off as transwomen are just men here to swoop in and save us by crossing the genderline, even when they are fully accepting of transmen and consider them men through and through (there's also the rad fems that have equal grievances with transmen sadly).  They don't bother to hide that message or be subtle in it.  But the two statements are not the same.  One is a statement of fact.  We didn't grow up female, and will never truly have the full impact of developing and being shaped by having been raised female.  It's not our fault, which sadly is why it can be a sore spot for many, which causes a defensive response.  But's a fact. 

Just as Transmen weren't raised male.  While the first page did a great job at acknowledging and pointing out the privileges that can come from being either gender, having a privilege that allows you to more freely express yourself masculinely isn't the same as being raised male. 

This is why I feel that transwomen and men sharing their perspectives with each other is a positive and beneficial thing.  We each hold the pieces of the puzzle the other is lacking and by sharing can mutually help each other out.

Moreso, being a guy doesn't mean you can't be a feminist.  I never got any negative reactions or such for being a feminist while still in the closet.   

Why shouldn't you be able to rant?  Why shouldn't you be able to get things that are eating away at you off your chest?  Yes, someone might feel insulted (though most things of importance that are said will result in someone feeling insulted) but why does their feelings mean more at this moment than your mental health?  There are a number of times and instances I feel it is perfectly and truly acceptable to be selfish, and put yourself first.  This is one of them.  These things don't go away until you've fully gotten them off your chest and talked them out. 

So I am positive I won't feel differently.  And I definitely won't hate you.  You have shown yourself to be a very respectable and stand up guy.  Nothing here is going to change that.  I really don't read between the lines looking for something insulting, and when something is somewhat ambiguously on the fence where one perspective can cast it as an insult and the other can cast it as not an insult, I tend to let what I know of the person guide me, or when I don't know them choose the perspective where it's not an insult. 

Also, feel perfectly free to pm me to rant and unload if you wish.  I'm a good listener and won't be offended at all.  So don't hesitate to use me as to just unload these things on if need be. 

I feel this post was increasingly disjointed and ramble-y...

I just want to share a few of my experiences that point to the kind of incessant programming that FA has been talking about. I'm a little older than FA and considerably older than the young guys here, so my programming was probably stronger--but Susan's has introduced me to lots of young guys living in conservative areas, and being raised by conservative families, who had it worse than I ever did.

When he was sixteen, my brother was pushed into getting a summer job because, you know, he was a boy. We lived in a small, closed community, and I guess my parents brokered it for him. I was never pushed in this way. When I was nineteen--nearly twenty, in fact--I finally got a job while I was on a break from college. It was all my idea.

I was not raised with the assumption that I would have a career. In fact, when I was about twenty (as I said, a college student still living at home), my mother made it very clear that she expected me to work until I found Mr. Right. I guess that's all that my as-yet-unearned college diploma would have been worth.

I was expected to live at home until I married. I obviously couldn't fend for myself; someone had to take care of me.

I did many things later in life than my brother did, and this seemed to be expected because, you know, I needed to be protected. When I started talking about moving out (I was twenty), my parents, and especially my mother, made it clear that I could do that only under their control--they even talked about investing in a condo for me to share with a girlfriend so that they could keep me under their thumb. I finally just disappeared one day. I knew they would do everything they could to keep me at home.

As a child, I often bested the boys and was often told that I must have cheated because girls aren't good enough to compete with boys. I was taunted and even ostracized for being better.

At eleven, I and a boy were the smartest ones in the class. I had to worry about what would happen if I looked (or was) smarter than he was because girls can't be at the top of their class without a lot of grief.

When I was about fifteen, some of my father's side of the family was over for Christmas. We all took turns opening gifts while the whole bunch watched. I got a rape whistle. For some weird reason, nobody was watching me at that moment--or maybe they all figured it out and pretended to direct their attention elsewhere--but it was one of the defining moments of my life. In that moment, I knew that I would never be safe wherever I went. Never. As far as I can tell, girls are brought up with the certain knowledge that they are never safe. They can protect themselves by taking classes or carrying pepper spray or even a gun. But they do that BECAUSE they are unsafe. They must become defensive.

I was raised to worry about dark streets, empty parking lots, and strangers hiding in the back seat of my car. In my college years, I absorbed the knowledge that no woman should leave her drink unattended at a party, accept a ride from a strange man, or take a shortcut to her car.

Once I became sexually active, I was on tenterhooks every month lest I should miss a period. I got pregnant twice, maybe three times. Once when I wasn't even penetrated, once when my boyfriend raped me without a condom, and the third time, if it was a third time, when the birth control must have failed (I think I had a spontaneous miscarriage early on, but I'm not sure). Sex for me was a risky venture, even with birth control, and I know that it was like that for a lot of cis girls. And abortion apparently has a terrible effect on many women. I had a cattle call abortion once and saw the devastation in the recovery room. Fortunately, I was untouched. I just wanted the growth removed.

I was assumed to be incompetent at nearly everything--it didn't have to be math or science or cars. My superior knowledge in my own areas of specialty were routinely challenged and discounted by men. Once, when I invited my then-boyfriend to "look it up in the dictionary," he told me that the dictionary was wrong. He certainly couldn't be wrong.

At a job interview, my would-be employer sexually harassed me.

If I dressed unattractively, I was sometimes ignored or even insulted to my face. The alternative was worse, actually. If I dressed sexily, men had entire conversations with my chest (well, that happened no matter what), and some men assumed that I would put out. When I refused, some men became frighteningly angry as if I were obligated to have sex with them. When it became clear that I had a brain, some men were actually intimidated and dropped me like a hot potato and wouldn't talk to me. Poor things. They had been raised in a culture that said that a man is no man if he is bested by a woman.

Boys are raised with their own set of rules and assumptions. These are some of the ones I was raised with--a clear message that girls are less than boys, incompetent, sexually available, and unsafe in the world. I'm not saying that my actual experiences are universal; I'm saying that, generally speaking, the messages were, at least in my day. I hope things aren't as bad nowadays, but some things might actually be worse.

A very good post, and some of these things were exactly what I was thinking of in my reply to FA, when I said that pointing out transwomen had and have different experiences simply because we weren't raised female.  Some I wasn't even really all that aware of, partially because of my own experiences and the generation in which I grew up where certain messages weren't as loudly spoken or enforced (they were still and are still there just not as loudly.)  Certain, not all.  Some are still as loud as then.

This is a fact, and no amount of hurt feelings at the statement of said fact is going to change that.  It's one thing to point out this fact, it's another to use it to invalidate transwomen.  You are FA are not invalidating us by discussing and pointing this out.  You aren't saying we aren't real women for not having these experiences.  But it's a fact we don't.  And even the ones we do get post-transition from being perceived as female isn't the same as having that from day one while you were growing up and developing your identity.

This forum should be a place for you to unload and discuss your experiences as well, without worrying that you'll cause a transwoman to feel invalidated.  These are experiences many on here have no doubt shared, and continue to share.  Even today a lot of these persist, some quieted to a degree (depending on the family and area), some as loud as ever.  It should be discussed as needed.

Hey Arch, FA, Phoenix et, al!
             I just read through the entire thread, lots of honest stuff here and I loved it. Guess all I can add is that I've been married to the same spouse for going on 45 years, it has everything to do with the fact that we have always been equal partners, considerate of one another in everything. I never needed to have my own periods, I suffered right along with her through her own, made emergency runs to the store when supplies were low, we went through menopause together, I froze my ass off at night with the icy wind blowing in the windows whiie she suffered awful night sweats. There is nothing about each of us that the other doesn't know about, and we make concessions for each other's sakes.

And Phoenix, when people ask me how women dress here in the Pacific Northwest, I can honestly say that they dress just like me unless they have to wear heels and a dress for some specific purpose. Yeah, we all dress casually, skinny jeans, tanks and layered tops, nothing frilly here. Do cis women in society suffer second class status at times, yup they sure do and at my place we do everything to minimize the impact of that societal discrepancy.

Quote from: Shantel on March 19, 2014, 04:24:39 PM
And Phoenix, when people ask me how women dress here in the Pacific Northwest, I can honestly say that they dress just like me unless they have to wear heels and a dress for some specific purpose. Yeah, we all dress casually, skinny jeans, tanks and layered tops, nothing frilly here.

Thank you. 

Coleen has articulated so well many of the points that have crossed my mind in the last few hours. I have been left pondering why my responses have been so defensive.

While it was never FA's intent this thread did hit close to home to me because of all the toxic BS spouted by TERFs that has corroded my mind. I still do grapple with feeling authentic in calling myself a woman when I never grew up a girl. I still feel obligated to somehow "earn" that right.

Also I need to work past a lot of "male guilt" (for lack of a better term) that I seem to carry. Reading Arch's account brought this home to me. I have been aware that these are daily worries faced by FAAB individuals by talking to cis female friends, in school and more recently the media. I am sickened by the fact that these things still continue today. I feel guilty about being associated with the perpetrating gender and in some twisted way do feel guilty for being spared.

But enough of my whining already. I too want to thank FA and Arch for bringing these issues to light. I clearly have some growing to do.

Defensiveness is a normal reaction, especially when it is in line with something we are self-conscious about or something we are refusing to acknowledge about ourselves.  It is not that easy to break the habit of going on the defensive.  It can take a long time to train yourself out of it.

But the easiest way to handle it is to take a step back.  If you are feeling insulted, and defensive, don't post.  The thread will be there for you later.  Take a step back, calm down, and when you're not ready for the fight, go back, look over the post, see if maybe you jumped to a conclusion or were looking at what was said from the wrong perspective.  Is it possible that when looked at differently or read in a different tone of voice the post is no longer insulting or offensive?  If so, it's more likely the poster was seeing that perspective only when it was written and didn't even consider that from another perspective it might be read as offensive. 

If the post is still offensive, then you are now in a calmer, more level-headed in which to counter the poster's sentiments respectfully and without causing things to escalate.  Also always a good idea to double check before posting anything in case you accidentally misread the actual words.

Quote from: ErinM on March 19, 2014, 04:59:17 PM
Coleen has articulated so well many of the points that have crossed my mind in the last few hours. I have been left pondering why my responses have been so defensive.

While it was never FA's intent this thread did hit close to home to me because of all the toxic BS spouted by TERFs that has corroded my mind. I still do grapple with feeling authentic in calling myself a woman when I never grew up a girl. I still feel obligated to somehow "earn" that right.

Also I need to work past a lot of "male guilt" (for lack of a better term) that I seem to carry. Reading Arch's account brought this home to me. I have been aware that these are daily worries faced by FAAB individuals by talking to cis female friends, in school and more recently the media. I am sickened by the fact that these things still continue today. I feel guilty about being associated with the perpetrating gender and in some twisted way do feel guilty for being spared.

But enough of my whining already. I too want to thank FA and Arch for bringing these issues to light. I clearly have some growing to do.

Oh no hon, I understand. There's been a lot of serious hate against trans women by TERFs. And this lack of female childhood/male privilege thing is just something they use to try justify it. And it's not fair at all. And I can get kind of forceful sometimes, if I think people aren't getting my point. lol I don't mean to.

I guess for me when people try to insist it's all equal, or not that bad, or something that sounds similar, it seems unfair to FAAB people (especially for people my age and older; I can't speak to how it is for young girls now). I think saying 'male privilege' has kind of become a shorthand to explain the difference in growing up female. But like I mentioned before, I think the concept is too simple and has been too abused. Talking about 'male privilege' might have been useful when the term was first popular. But it's kind of lost its luster now. And I wish there were an easier way of saying there is a difference without putting MAAB people on the defensive for something they have nothing to do with, didn't ask for, and in the case of trans women would willingly trade.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 05:30:59 PM
I guess for me when people try to insist it's all equal, or not that bad, or something that sounds similar, it seems unfair to FAAB people (especially for people my age and older; I can't speak to how it is for young girls now). I think saying 'male privilege' has kind of become a shorthand to explain the difference in growing up female. But like I mentioned before, I think the concept is too simple and has been too abused. Talking about 'male privilege' might have been useful when the term was first popular. But it's kind of lost its luster now. And I wish there were an easier way of saying there is a difference without putting MAAB people on the defensive for something they have nothing to do with, didn't ask for, and in the case of trans women would willingly trade.

This ^, especially the part of how unfair it is.  Because it is.  One person's situation or hardships growing up is not more or less valid than another's.  But it is so very different and trying to claim that you know exactly what it's like because of this other very different experience is exceptionally dismissive.  There are many things that without being, or going through it, you really can't relate to all that much.  This is the reason it is often hard for cis people to grasp how hard it is to be trans, they've never had to experience the dysphoria we do, and don't have the requisite experience to accurately fathom what it is like. 

Saying that an experience is unique and unknowable to those who haven't experienced it is not dismissing those who haven't experienced it.  But saying that no, it's the same as this experience and therefore I know, when the experiences aren't similar, does dismiss the experience from those who have. 

Different doesn't mean more or less valid, just different.  I think that is something the world at large needs to start recognizing. 

In all honesty I think it needs to be discussed. You have brought this forward in what I have felt was as tactful as you could be. You have every right to bring up something that is an issue to you.

It is unfortunate that some subjects will be touchy to say the least. Regardless of the topic and who might feel defensive, I think it's important to become aware of why they would feel defensive.

Emotional intelligence is perhaps one of my most valuable tools since I started transition.

Quote from: ErinM on March 19, 2014, 06:04:55 PM
In all honesty I think it needs to be discussed. You have brought this forward in what I have felt was as tactful as you could be. You have every right to bring up something that is an issue to you.

It is unfortunate that some subjects will be touchy to say the least. Regardless of the topic and who might feel defensive, I think it's important to become aware of why they would feel defensive.

Emotional intelligence is perhaps one of my most valuable tools since I started transition.

I had never heard of TERF, shows how out of it I am, so had to google it and was shocked at how inhuman, cruel, hateful and dark minded those people are! Sorry for interrupting the thread....~Shan~

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 02:23:06 PM
The other thing that always makes me feel bad talking about this kind of thing is the fear that somehow I'll make MAAB people feel bad or sound like I'm accusing them or belittling their experience or something. And a lot of you are my close friends. So I hate that this is such a loaded thing and that some rad fems have turned this around to attack trans women. When really, I just need to talk about things that are eating me up inside, that really bother me. If I'm ever to heal some of the most insidious hang ups I have - very toxic things that are crippling. I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect they're rooted in both trans and female issues. Toxic messages and programming. So, yeah that's where I'm at with this. If I get kinda ranty, I guess it's cause this stuff is really bugging me.

I think the important part to acknowledge is that, regardless of how the trans woman grew up (and folks are starting to transition young enough that they are going to have mixed programming), the experiences they had are still the experiences of a woman. I.e. you are talking about females who grew up being perceived as male and treated as male.

Also the discussion of privilege frequently falls into strange territory, because, as a sociological tool, it was never really intended to describe an individual's experience. It's for analyzing groups within society. I.e., you aren't suggesting that one person's experience is worse or more difficult than another's, you are suggesting that all other things held equal, one particular trait is more valued than another. In this case, male over female.

A reason why some trans feminists in particular get their back up over this topic is that there is a tendency to obscure trans women's experiences post-transition in favour of their experiences pre-transition. And, while it is true that trans women have the advantage of being percieved as "cis male" for a period of time, being perceived as "trans female" post-transition is, well, very bad.

There is also a bit of a tendency as well to universalize "raised female," when that looks extremely different depending on class, country and culture. For example, a straight woman with muscular dystrophy being raised in Australia is going to have a very different experience of being a woman than an able-bodied Palestinian lesbian raised in the West Bank. It tends to be more reasonable to explain a trans woman's childhood of being raised as male as being a particular variety of a woman's childhood, rather than something entirely "other."

Anyway, ya... it's a touchy subject, because, as you said, it has a tendency to get weaponized in transmysogynistic ways. And I think you are doing pretty well at keeping that from happening.

That said, trans communities, due to the laser focus on gender dichotomy, have a tendency to be a breeding ground for sexism. And that leaves us frequently with really awkward things like victim blaming, slut shaming, denial of gender inequalities, threads about "female privilege," and the occasional really inappropriate PM in my inbox. The sexism also isn't entirely limited to the trans women's part of the forums, of course.

I tend to just ignore a lot of that stuff these days in self-defense. It's so constant it's kind of overwhelming.


As to your actual topic: I think there are some slightly odd effects that can be produced from being trans while growing up. Like if you learn as a kid that "girls are meant to be quiet," and you perceive yourself as a girl... do you end up becoming more quiet? Or if you perceive yourself as a boy... do you fight against the programming? I think it creates some unusual dynamics and internal conflicts that cis folks don't experience. A lot of trans folks growing up are super stressed out for a reason, nah?

I wonder where exactly I fit into that stuff myself. The feedback I got when perceived as a boy was that I was "too quiet." Shy, self-effacing, never spoke enough. Now I'm told that I'm very assertive and not afraid to speak up for myself. Did I change or is it just that my actions are being filtered through a differently gendered lens. It seems just about impossible, from my perspective, to really unravel where all my programming came from, or how I ended up the way I am.

What is the programming that you ended up with that you are struggling with? Do you want to talk about it?

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 18, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Seriously.  Most women wear pants most of the time.  (I practically live in skinny jeans).  And aren't all that flashy.  It seems like maybe a lot of trans women's expressions of what is described as femininity come from drag culture, which is very flashy . . . But it's a parody of femininity rather than an authentic expression of femininity.  A lot can be said about how MAAB don't learn these things growing up, so they don't have any other place to go.  But that's not entirely true.  Women are all over the place.  Go hang out with them.  Really listen.  You'd learn a lot.

This stuff all makes me feel super awkward. I mean, it's another dichotomy, right? The people who dress as flashy femme, and the people who dress with an "authentic expression of femininity." Blah.

There is nothing authentic about clothing. They are articles of decoration with social and cultural norms attached. Moreover, why the assumption that we all want to be "authentic" . . . or even feminine? Or blend in? Or blend in with the very specific version of straight, white, urban, middle-class society which you are taking as your baseline.

On the other hand, I find the focus on and obsession with a certain idealized form of femininity to be really alienating and frequently sexist. The built in assumptions that ALL trans women want to dress a certain way, or should dress a certain way, or should want to wear makeup, or should love having long nails or... The endless rows of those threads sometimes make it really hard to justify to myself how or why I am a part of trans anything.

So like, a pox on both your houses. :P

I mean, not literally. And I totally support everyone in whatever they want to wear. I just wish everyone would stop making assumptions about everyone else. Because it invariably means me, and folks like me, get left out of it.

I will go on wearing my jeans and dress shirts and asymetrical short hair. And looking like the tomboy dyke that I am.

@Sarah thank you for bringing up a topic that I have wondered about a lot ( but I usually prefer to just bite my tongue in these conversations because I don't want to unintentionally invalidate anyone) and sorry if this is off topic as well D: just to clarify thus has nothing to do with misogyny and the wrongness of it.

But honestly, how much does your core personality affect how your socialization affects you? And how it even happens in the first place.

Like personally, I experienced a lot of the negative aspects of male socialization that went right over my head because for whatever reason I just never compared myself to other boys or felt the need to be masculine. I was called (sorry for repeating these) ->-bleeped-<-, pussy, pansy, queer almost dailt for a while, but those weren't insults to me bc they implied things about my character that weren't invalidating to me. I had nothing to prove. I didn't care about being short because I didn't need to feel like I was tall and powerful like other men. I didn't care about my attractiveness to women because I didn't want to date women. I mean it hurt that people were being mean to me, but it didn't feel personal. The attacks that felt personal to me and seriously scarred me were ugly, fat, gross, no friends. Because I wanted to be pretty. I wanted to be skinny. I wanted to be lovely and have lots of friends. So I got eating disorders, self-hatred and selfbharm, panic attacks and a lacking sense of myself and my social boundaries. Not compensatory heterosexuality, not compensatory narcissism, not extreme competitiveness, not excessive bodybuilding or a desire to prove myself. And that meant from a very young age I gravitated away from people or environments where these things were valued and the type of people who would expect those things of me. I never experienced much pressure to be masculine bc I had created my own little bubble where those things weren't relevant. Even with family. I spent more time with my mom than my dad. Relationships atrophied with family members who would always tell me to start being interested in girls or gain weight or cut my hair and any number of other silly things, and not just be willing to accept who I am.

So I definitely don't know the answer or what any of this means but I do think it's at least partially how we respond to how we are socialized that shapes who we are too.

(And I am not acting like pressure to do or be something for just the sake of other people liking you or inherited values isn't a thing, just again I think the ones that really stick and really motivate who you are are the ones that threaten your core self and threaten your identity.)

For me, I would rather look like an "ugly" woman than be a mediocre male.  (And I currently am a mediocre "male".)  Average is SOOOOO boring.  Makes it that much easier to go as a witch every Halloween.  Maybe get a job at a circus or carnie as the crazy old fortune-teller lady?  Work in radio?  I have a face for radio...

Quote from: sad panda on March 20, 2014, 05:12:51 AM
@Sarah thank you for bringing up a topic that I have wondered about a lot ( but I usually prefer to just bite my tongue in these conversations because I don't want to unintentionally invalidate anyone) and sorry if this is off topic as well D: just to clarify thus has nothing to do with misogyny and the wrongness of it.

But honestly, how much does your core personality affect how your socialization affects you? And how it even happens in the first place.

Like personally, I experienced a lot of the negative aspects of male socialization that went right over my head because for whatever reason I just never compared myself to other boys or felt the need to be masculine. I was called (sorry for repeating these) ->-bleeped-<-, pussy, pansy, queer almost dailt for a while, but those weren't insults to me bc they implied things about my character that weren't invalidating to me. I had nothing to prove. I didn't care about being short because I didn't need to feel like I was tall and powerful like other men. I didn't care about my attractiveness to women because I didn't want to date women. I mean it hurt that people were being mean to me, but it didn't feel personal. The attacks that felt personal to me and seriously scarred me were ugly, fat, gross, no friends. Because I wanted to be pretty. I wanted to be skinny. I wanted to be lovely and have lots of friends. So I got eating disorders, self-hatred and selfbharm, panic attacks and a lacking sense of myself and my social boundaries. Not compensatory heterosexuality, not compensatory narcissism, not extreme competitiveness, not excessive bodybuilding or a desire to prove myself. And that meant from a very young age I gravitated away from people or environments where these things were valued and the type of people who would expect those things of me. I never experienced much pressure to be masculine bc I had created my own little bubble where those things weren't relevant. Even with family. I spent more time with my mom than my dad. Relationships atrophied with family members who would always tell me to start being interested in girls or gain weight or cut my hair and any number of other silly things, and not just be willing to accept who I am.

So I definitely don't know the answer or what any of this means but I do think it's at least partially how we respond to how we are socialized that shapes who we are too.

(And I am not acting like pressure to do or be something for just the sake of other people liking you or inherited values isn't a thing, just again I think the ones that really stick and really motivate who you are are the ones that threaten your core self and threaten your identity.)

Well, it does. But the kind of thing I'm talking about is stuff that's pretty universal for women, though some may experience it differently. Like,  with me, I really didn't have it that bad as a woman. There are a ton of women who experienced way more sexism, abuse, etc.

What an interesting thread! Thanks FA.

My experiences mirror Arch's almost exactly, probably because we're of the same generation. I had several additional problems, such as being forced into stereotypically 'female' subjects at school (e.g. cooking, typing, sewing & knitting) without any option to drop them or choose alternatives, because that's what the government mandated at the time. Good ol' Apartheid South Africa was all about putting people into very specific boxes in more ways than one, and gender roles were very strictly enforced at all levels of society.

When my elder brother graduated High School with distinction, our parents proudly paid for him to study at one of the country's most prestigious universities so that he could have a good career and support his family. Three years later, when I also graduated High School with distinction, my parents refused to pay for me to attend any university or college at all, because like Arch I was expected to get an 'easy' job to tide me over until I could marry Mr Right. My brother's advantage here is undeniable, because he got an excellent tertiary education - at our parents' expense - before settling down and having kids... whereas all of the tertiary qualifications I've earned have been at my own expense and whilst working full-time as my family's main breadwinner. If I'd been MAAB, I would've had the same encouragement and support as my brother and my life would've been very different. Perhaps that's a generational thing? My folks were born just after WWII, and were quite old-fashioned in some of their views.

Granted, if my brother had been trans* and had wanted to express femininity, I don't doubt for a second he would've faced the full wrath of society for doing so; probably moreso than I did for expressing my masculinity. But knowing my family, he still would've been offered the advantages I was denied, because our folks would've believed that he was 'really a boy' and they would've pushed him to succeed accordingly. But for me, whilst I was allowed to be a tomboy for a brief period, my folks were pretty darn convinced that I was 'really a girl' and they certainly treated me accordingly, i.e. like a second-class citizen whose sole purpose was to look pretty so that I could snag a man who would support me. My upbringing as someone presumed to be female demanded that I learn to be submissive, be scared, be defensive, not put my head above the parapet... and that I didn't deserve a good education or a career, because my husband would be expected to provide everything for me. People who are MAAB generally don't get those same lessons growing up. And those lessons can be quite a handicap, if you take them to heart.

I spent the first 20-odd years of my career struggling to be taken seriously as a 'female' professional, because no matter how masculine I felt inside, everyone else saw me as being less than the male equivalent precisely because they perceived me as female. When my male colleagues were assertive they were considered dynamic, effective leaders, but whenever I behaved in the same way I was ridiculed for being 'shrill', 'hysterical', or a 'b*tch'. It was almost impossible to be taken seriously, and it certainly wasn't possible for me to earn as much as my male colleagues doing the same job.

I'm still working to overcome all this.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 20, 2014, 12:25:46 PM
I had several additional problems, such as being forced into stereotypically 'female' subjects at school (e.g. cooking, typing, sewing & knitting) without any option to drop them or choose alternatives, because that's what the government mandated at the time.

Ah, yes. Gender-specific "electives." At my school, I was forced to choose between cooking and sewing even though Title IX was then in effect and the school had no right to limit me in that way. I wanted to take wood shop. I was denied. I should have pressed the point, but I didn't know about the law. I was lucky that I needed to take only one--my foreign language elective saved me from taking two.

And, of course, the boys could not take cooking or sewing, but I never heard of a boy who requested one of those classes. It would have been social suicide. Sucky double standard for all.

My senior year was the first year that my school went co ed on many things. i was the only 'female' in shop classes, (and I took all of them) and one guy took all the home ec classes. We both signed up for the Navy that year, too.

Quote from: FA on March 19, 2014, 09:50:46 AM
I never did. I never thought about any of this feminist stuff until now - years after transition.
But I do think being born into the 'lesser half' of humanity and all that means affects women growing up. How could it not?

Same with me. I didn't occur to me that some people were treating me the way they did because they saw me as female. I thought there was either something wrong with me or that people were like that to everyone. Maybe that's still the case. It doesn't seem like it so far though.
I still have hang ups against attractiveness, would be glad if I never had to have sex again, have issues with feelings and relationships up the wazoo, etc.
Although come to think of it... has anyone else had the same problems I have? Or is it just me?

Quote from: sad panda on March 20, 2014, 05:12:51 AMBut honestly, how much does your core personality affect how your socialization affects you? And how it even happens in the first place.

That's a subject I am very interested in.

Quote from: sad panda on March 20, 2014, 05:12:51 AMSo I definitely don't know the answer or what any of this means but I do think it's at least partially how we respond to how we are socialized that shapes who we are too.

Oh definitely. Different people react to similar experiences differently.

FTMDiaries, I didn't know that you and I were about the same age. My parents were born around 1930, though, and my mother is particularly conservative. It's funny; I was allowed to do the tomboy thing, but my mother seemed to start worrying at a certain point. She started pushing girly things on me. I think she was worried that I was gay. Well, I am, but not in the way she was thinking!

I was lucky in that I resocialized myself in my head quite a bit. I had boyhoods in my head. But none of that "training" could undo the early girly indoctrination. My imagination was more of a way of expressing my resentment and giving me an outlet for my male identity to really shine through.

I was also lucky to be interested in men, and I was always in relationships with men. So I took advantage of quite a bit of adult male socialization. I think that's one reason I blend in so well now. That and the lives I led in my head.

Quote from: Arch on March 20, 2014, 04:21:01 PM
FTMDiaries, I didn't know that you and I were about the same age.

Yeah, if my memory serves, you & I aren't a million miles apart in age. We're probably within about 10 or so years of each other.

Quote from: Arch on March 20, 2014, 04:21:01 PM
It's funny; I was allowed to do the tomboy thing, but my mother seemed to start worrying at a certain point. She started pushing girly things on me. I think she was worried that I was gay. Well, I am, but not in the way she was thinking!

This is something that I think ought to be better understood: some people might think that FtMs have an easier time in childhood because some of us get to be tomboys - and this is true to a certain extent - but our parents presume our tomboyishness will be a quick fad and that we'll outgrow it within a year or so, like any other fad. If we don't, we then face enormous societal pressure because we've exposed ourselves as being gender-incongruent and the authority figures in our lives grow tired of tolerating our 'tomboyishness' and crack down on us. So it's not always the easy ride that some might imagine.

When I first came out to my Mum at age 5, she told me that she knew exactly what was 'wrong' with me. She said I was a tomboy and that it was just a phase I was going through. She said that when I became a teenager I'd be happy about seeing my body change into that of a woman, and I wouldn't feel like I wanted to be a boy any more. I already felt horrible about myself in ways I couldn't yet describe, so when she said it was just a phase I was really relieved. I spent years looking forward to puberty so that I could finally feel 'normal' again. Of course, the exact opposite happened... I hated my body even though I was apparently very attractive (if the female form is to your taste, I suppose; it isn't to mine!). But my Mum only tolerated my tomboyishness briefly, and she made some strict rules about forcing me to wear dresses. It was soul-destroying for me.

So the acceptability of 'tomboyishness' was used as a weapon to invalidate me, and that sort of thing still happens today. I wonder who's more likely to get referred to gender therapy these days: a MAAB child expressing feminine tendencies in a society that has no natural outlet for such things, or an FAAB child expressing masculine tendencies in a society where tomboys are accepted and common? Could the prevalence of tomboys be preventing or delaying treatment in FAAB transkids?

Quote from: Arch on March 20, 2014, 12:30:09 PM
Ah, yes. Gender-specific "electives." At my school, I was forced to choose between cooking and sewing even though Title IX was then in effect and the school had no right to limit me in that way. I wanted to take wood shop. I was denied. I should have pressed the point, but I didn't know about the law. I was lucky that I needed to take only one--my foreign language elective saved me from taking two.

We didn't get any choice: only the boys got a choice, between woodwork & metalwork. The girls had no choice but to learn how to be good little housewives in a course called 'Home Economics', which was basically cooking, knitting, sewing and learning how to budget for your family's groceries. It was literally a course on how to become a Stepford Wife. >:(

My brother elected to do woodwork and his end-of-year piece was a side table. I was ridiculously jealous: it was so cool that he got to make something useful, whereas I learned to crochet one of those toilet roll covers that was like a doll in an elaborate Victorian dress. Urgh.

Edited to add: of course, some of those MAAB kids might have been just as dismayed about having to choose between two stereotypically masculine subjects without the option of studying Home Economics, as I was at being forced to do a stereotypically feminine subject with no option to do Woodwork.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 20, 2014, 06:36:58 PM
We didn't get any choice: only the boys got a choice, between woodwork & metalwork.

Very few girls got a choice, actually. The vast majority took cooking one term and sewing the next. I got a choice because anyone who took a foreign language was required to take only one home ec class.

When I was signing up for seventh grade (this was junior high--seventh, eighth, and ninth)--I distinctly remember being told that my foreign language spared me the necessity of taking ANY gender-specific electives. I was jubilant. Then, when I was signing up for eighth-grade courses, my counselor told me that I had to take one and why hadn't I done it in seventh grade the way I was supposed to? She put it all on me. I still don't see how a year-long language class absolved me from only one semester of the home ec stuff.

She also didn't tell me that I had to take a one-semester science class in seventh grade, so I wound up taking that during the summer. I apparently wasn't allowed to take it as an eighth-grader because it was seventh-grade science, so I had to take home ec in eighth grade (with a bunch of seventh-graders) AND find another useless one-semester class to plug in the gap.

My high-school counselor was just about as helpful...

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 20, 2014, 06:36:58 PM
Edited to add: of course, some of those MAAB kids might have been just as dismayed about having to choose between two stereotypically masculine subjects without the option of studying Home Economics, as I was at being forced to do a stereotypically feminine subject with no option to do Woodwork.

That's where I'm grateful that having been born in western Canada during the 1980's. My my Jr High (Middle) School required everybody to take both shop and home economics. The class was separated in two (but still kept co-ed) and we would take one in one half of the year and then switch.

By high school we finally did start having electives. There was never any school enforced restrictions based on electives, but the social stigmas were still there. A boy could take Cosmetology if he so chose, but would never hear the end of it from his peers.

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 07:22:16 PM

Quote from: FA on March 18, 2014, 06:25:37 PM
If you're internally female but assigned male, you escape this status no matter how horrible your life is. That's all I'm trying to point it. That it's different.

Young trans girls often internalize female limitations and pressures because they see themselves as the target of those messages.  I can only speak from my experience, and this is what I experienced.

Do not generalize how children perceive the world, or how they think the world perceives them.  There may be a difference in physical consequences of not adhering to pressures between AFAB and AMAB, but it's often not enough to dissuade a child's internal worldview and self-view.  There's no universal experience of boyhood and girlhood.

Well, I'm not trying to generalize. At least not in that way. I think a large part of the confusion here is people interpreting what I'm saying as AFAB people having a cookie cutter experience. And that's not what I'm talking about. There are commonalities to growing up female as well as commonalities to growing male.

For instance, if I said something about boys growing up with the messages of it being bad to show emotion, cry, or be girly - that holds true whether there are individual boys who didn't experience that pressure as much. Or don't remember experiencing or whatever. (note: the rest isn't in response to your post alone, but just the kind of attitudes that frequently crop in these discussions)

Obviously, there are boys who suffered horribly under those messages and boys who didn't. And this is based on a lot of things - environment, personality (maybe the boy was stronger in his individuality, maybe it just hadn't been beaten into him like it was other boys, or whatever). And I think sometimes there's some unconscious blame on these boards towards people who 'just weren't strong enough' to overcome whatever. Well, I think there's a big difference between a kid growing up in a strict household to where he was beaten for so much as opening his mouth, let alone daring to voice a feminine identity and a kid who didn't grow up in that kind of environment.

But a few outliers - boys who didn't experience these pressures as much or were strong enough for it not to matter or whatever - these are anomalies. If a hundred girls grow up oppressed and there's one girl who had a great experience and 'didn't let it get her down' or whatever, that just proves the point. Of course there are a few girls who 'overcame' or whatever. But it's like that one girl out of how many proves nothing. It's like acting like poverty can't be that big a deal cause there's one homeless guy who ended up a millionaire.

Quote from: Sarah7 on March 19, 2014, 06:17:11 PM
What is the programming that you ended up with that you are struggling with? Do you want to talk about it?

Honestly, I wish I felt comfortable. But every time I try to talk about anything like this I feel judged and like most just want to argue with everything I say. That would be fine if this were a debate. But I honestly didn't realize the fact girls grow up differently in a sexist world was a debate. I mean, I suppose I could go on about the guy I know who had superior inner strength and never felt any pressure to hold back his emotions and 'rose above' it all, nearly untouched by male socialization. But he doesn't exist. Honestly. And if he did, going on about this anomaly would do nothing to help trans women who may be dealing with these harmful effects. And what business would I have of going on about it anyway - about my experience as a trans boy kid (who no matter his experience did not grow up as a male child) or my friend's experience (where he was supposedly untouched and/or much more mentally strong than anyone who god forbid was affected by a male upbringing).

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 08:53:19 PM
I suppose I wasn't the best person to comment on this issue.  My elder sister was an outspoken feminist, my father was not traditionally masculine and my mother was not traditionally feminine.  I also lived in the middle of nowhere.  My experiences cannot compare to anything in this thread.  I apologize for continuing to make it feel like a debate.

That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I'm going to add some here. Every time I talk about stuff like this here, I end up feeling awful. And I think part of that is my discomfort with the subject at all (for one, being a guy and also this stuff is triggering and real), and part of that is the reception I receive. Even when it's couched in somewhat respectful terms. What I end up hearing despite how the post is crafted, is judgment and disbelief. And a lot of 'me, me, me'. It's apples and oranges. I'm not talking about you.

My discussing issues I faced as an AFAB person (I hate that term but it's easier) has nothing to do with your experience or your cis girlfriend's experience (who of course somehow escaped all this).
It doesn't invalidate your experience or your life. It has nothing to do with you. I know you were bullied, persecuted for being girly, and god knows what. It's still apples and oranges.

And I'm not just saying this for me but we have a lot of AFAB people here who were affected by the female experience, not to mention cis female SOs. We should feel comfortable discussing gender issues on a gender forum. And I'm not feeling that right now.

Hugs. 

I'm sorry you get this reaction.  I for one think it is important to talk about.  Not just for you but for a large portion of the community on here that have had to deal with the same.  You shouldn't be made to feel awful for discussing this.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 09:04:29 PM
That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I feel that I should apologize as well. I'm guilty as charged in turning this into a debate as well. I have already stated why in my previous posts, but those reasons were not a justification. I didn't stop to think before I started to type.

This should be a place where you can feel free to talk about something that has clearly been an issue for you, and sadly it seems like you are being denied that opportunity.

One observation I'd like to point out is how you started that last post and many like it. While I for one am grateful for your forgiving nature, might I be bold enough to suggest that this would be a good place to stand your ground a little more?

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:00:49 PM
That seems like a suggestion about male privilege. 

What?

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:00:49 PM
Why were trans women brought up early in this thread when it wasn't about them?  ThePhoenix's remark made me feel very uncomfortable and I felt like I needed to defend myself.  Now I feel that way even more.  I apologize for bringing up my experience; I was only trying to suggest the rigid categories separating AFAB and AMAB may not be accurately descriptive for everyone's passage through childhood.

Honestly, I don't recall bringing up trans women. If I did, it was probably an offensive move because I've never been able to discuss AFAB issues without someone bringing it up. And again, I'm not talking about anyone or any post specifically, just the tone that always happens.

And I know trans people are often very defensive about their childhoods. But no matter how masculine I was or no matter how my parents treated me, I didn't have a male childhood. It's different. Of course there are a wide range of experiences, but we still as a society are divided in half by sex. If there's a tomboy raised only by men, allowed to wear whatever she wants, do whatever she wants, that doesn't make that not true. And that certainly doesn't eliminate the socialization she receives. She still grows up female. No matter how empowering her family is, she still grows up as a girl in a male dominated culture. All the love and affirming messages in the world can't erase that.

Of course every child grows up differently. It doesn't change the fact we grow up in a sexist culture. And being feminine doesn't give little boys a girl's experience and vice versa. I mean, my parents could be that couple who refused to disclose their baby's sex and they still couldn't protect me from the world.

I removed my posts.  I'm sorry, I hardly ever participate on the forum and some posts in this thread brought up some bad memories of anti-trans sites that I won't mention, and maybe I wasn't in the right state of mind to respond. 

Quote from: ErinM on March 20, 2014, 10:10:07 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 09:04:29 PM
That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I feel that I should apologize as well. I'm guilty as charged in turning this into a debate as well. I have already stated why in my previous posts, but those reasons were not a justification. I didn't stop to think before I started to type.

This should be a place where you can feel free to talk about something that has clearly been an issue for you, and sadly it seems like you are being denied that opportunity.

One observation I'd like to point out is how you started that last post and many like it. While I for one am grateful for your forgiving nature, might I be bold enough to suggest that this would be a good place to stand your ground a little more?

Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:49:08 PM
I removed my posts.  I'm sorry, I hardly ever participate on the forum and some posts in this thread brought up some bad memories of anti-trans sites that I won't mention, and maybe I wasn't in the right state of mind to respond.

you're fine sweetie. It's really not you, this has been brewing for days.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.

Quote from: Edge on March 20, 2014, 10:58:36 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.

Thanks. Yeah, I think it's too much to expect honestly - for a boy to thrive under such conditions. I mean you basically remove everything it means to be male from him. Really, I don't think most cis men would fare well.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when you say that you're not the least bit upset about anyone or any post and yet you feel honestly feel judged. Are you being honest with yourself when you speak about your feelings towards what is being said by others?

Perhaps I'm being way off base here, but I only bring this up because I have been guilty of the "it's not you, it's me attitude" I've had towards the world. I ended up conditioning myself to believe that the way others treated me was my fault, that it was because I was so deformed inside and out that I deserved what I got.  One thing that I have struggled with is becoming assertive enough to ask for what I need and to stand up for it and this has applied not only to my transition, but other aspects of my life as well.

There is nothing weak in being affected by you upbringing. It's called being human. You may not have been able to  slay you demons as a child (I know I couldn't), but it looks like your starting now.

I'm left with one more question: is there anything I can do to be supportive to you?

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

this just kicked me in the gut. "a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman". that is me. so much of what you've posted about in this thread I could relate to, but that statement feels like a core truth for me. I've been following this thread and felt too new and ignorant to comment but I am so grateful for this thread and what you have said.

and FA, your signature is awesome.

Quote from: ErinM on March 20, 2014, 11:29:45 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when you say that you're not the least bit upset about anyone or any post and yet you feel honestly feel judged. Are you being honest with yourself when you speak about your feelings towards what is being said by others?

Well, whenever I'm upset or ranting on here, which isn't often, it's usually an accumulation of things, discussions, etc. I've been here for a lot of years, so sometimes that seeps in. I can honestly say I'm not upset by any individual or post in this thread, just the accumulation. And really just the grimy feeling I get afterward.

QuoteI'm left with one more question: is there anything I can do to be supportive to you?

You are now.  :)

FA, I love yah but I feel like you are always holding back on this topic and hiding behind the impersonal category of FAAB issues when you experienced and are suffering from FA issues, which have plenty to do with being FAAB but didn't hurt you just *because* you are FAAB, they hurt you because you experienced something bad. nobody will be bothered by your experience if you will let it be your own experiences and not necessarily turn that into like an ownership of female experience and the experience of being treated as a woman. Of course you have a partial ownership... your experiences, but not of the whole thing.

It's the insistence on the line between being treated as a woman as MAAB vs being treated as a woman as FAAB. Yes there are differences in the timing of it maybe, not even always... but if it is universal to people perceived and living as women, it's the same treatment. Ultimately you are speaking for people who you decided do not have a voice, at least not the same voice. And you act like it's not a less valid voice but do you really believe that? Do you really deep down believe that an MTF has an equally valid voice as you on what it means to live as a person who is perceived as a woman?

Sorry if I am being too critical I just don't get why you need to label your issues and put them in a group of maybe similar people. Nobody would be defensive if you were just willing to talk about your own experiences. I completely understand if that is uncomfortable but no matter how many people do agree that it sucks to be female and females are seen as the lesser sex (bc people already know that. People already know that feminism exists for a reason.. at least people around here I would hope) I don't believe that will ever help you heal specific pain from specific incidents in your life. Your FA issues which should matter and are important to you.

God i always hate myself after i post though, so please if this is annoying just ignore it completely. Maybe I sound sure of myself but I am never sure of anything anymore when it comes to gender. :/

Also, I'm kinda hoping it wasn't my last post that made you feel judged but just in case, it makes completely perfect sense to me that you would suffer over feeling affected by your past. But being unaffected doesn't make you strong, it makes you unhuman. The evidence that you are strong is in the fact that you feel affected, you know it sucks and you keep pushing forward anyway to be true to who you are. Seriously... that is not something everyone can do.... Some people, actually probably most people go their whole life denying themselves of who they are over that pain. It takes incredible strength to take the reins.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 12:15:43 AM
FA, I love yah but I feel like you are always holding back on this topic and hiding behind the impersonal category of FAAB issues when you experienced and are suffering from FA issues, which have plenty to do with being FAAB but didn't hurt you just *because* you are FAAB, they hurt you because you experienced something bad.

Maybe I am holding back. It's very difficult to talk about this, but most of what I am feeling is not tangible - I wasn't raped, I didn't experience overt sexism, I wasn't abused. Most cis women I know had it way worse than me. But what I'm going through is female specific. It doesn't mean every single female on earth feels the same, but it is still pretty universal. But these things sound trivial, if you're not going through them. And they are subtle. And so ingrained in our culture, most women are used to it.

But anyway, like I said I don't think it's wrong to say girls go through X, have X expectations, etc. I mean if a trans woman is talking how difficult it was growing up male and all the expectations that were placed on her - I honestly don't feel qualified to offer any kind of opinion or refutation on that. And I don't feel like my being masculine, being permitted masculine activities by parents, or bullied for it, etc is any kind of comment on that. And I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or be rude, but I would feel pretty stupid talking about my childhood like it was any kind of comment or had anything to do with that. So, I really don't know why trans women do.

There does seem to be a double standard. I would never think of debating a trans woman on male expectations, childhood, etc. I didn't go through it and I'm not going to frame my childhood as if it was somehow comparable like many trans woman seem to do. Having a male identity does not qualify me to talk about the cis or born male experience. Yet, many trans women seem to feel this way. They may think they don't, but get all up in arms talking about their childhood whenever an AFAB person even broaches the subject.

To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 11:22:45 PM
I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.


Thanks. Yeah, I think it's too much to expect honestly - for a boy to thrive under such conditions. I mean you basically remove everything it means to be male from him. Really, I don't think most cis men would fare well.

I've watched cis gender friends question their sexuality and such for less, so you are spot on there. 

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 01:36:56 AM
Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Not sure what you mean. But as my friend just pointed out, I'm probably being a little too candid here. All I can say is the responses from these threads make me feel like I'm doing something wrong by even broaching the subject.

I expect I'll feel wretched in the morning and want to delete all this. But really, are trans women expected to justify themselves when talking about the male experience? What if I start jumping down every woman's throat when she talks about male restrictions? 'Well, I went in and bought a sparkly pink tiara and a tutu and I didn't have any problem as some big dude with a beard, so....'

All I want is a little respect that I know what I'm talking about. That's it.

I wish I could stop the backlash this causes  I do.  You have every right to talk about these things and you should. 

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 21, 2014, 01:54:59 AM
I wish I could stop the backlash this causes  I do.  You have every right to talk about these things and you should.

Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

I honestly don't know.  I don't think you should have to prove anything to talk about it.  The simple fact you are AFAB means you have every right to talk about it.  Just as AMAB have the right to talk about being raised AMAB.  I feel awful that this is even a thing that happens, that you and everyone else can't discuss this without having to prove yourselves or being made to feel bad about it.

Discuss it as much as wish. 

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 01:36:56 AM
Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Sorry hon, I think I just got what you mean here. That makes a lot of sense and I sympathize. From my point of view, this born female thing is huge and whenever I try to talk to about it, I feel like people are trying to minimize it. Or go on about MAAB experiences, or even worse - make it sound somehow as if I or other AFAB peeps are somehow lacking for being affected.

And obviously being trans has a huge effect on us. But growing up female does too. And honestly, it freakin hurts. My being 'male brained' or whatever didn't stop that.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

Sorry FA, but there you are again. Stop feeling guilty for feeling angry! You should be able to talk about this without needing to defend yourself. You are entitled to feel angry over this. I think it's unhealthy to be holding it back.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:46:02 AM
Sorry hon, I think I just got what you mean here. That makes a lot of sense and I sympathize. From my point of view, this born female thing is huge and whenever I try to talk to about it, I feel like people are trying to minimize it. Or go on about MAAB experiences, or even worse - make it sound somehow as if I or other AFAB peeps are somehow lacking for being affected.

And obviously being trans has a huge effect on us. But growing up female does too. And honestly, it freakin hurts. My being 'male brained' or whatever didn't stop that.

In all honesty I know that as a trans woman I basically need to learn to set my hang ups aside, shut the hell up about my experiences for a minute and listen to what's being said here. Like you said, there are plenty of other threads out there for us MAAB folks to discuss our issues.

I can never know first what it's like to experience sexism as a child, but I should be willing to hear what FAAB people experienced without trying to trivialize or downplaying it.

AF, you're absolutely right on every point regarding the differences about how AFABs have to deal with the lesser sex issues growing up!

I just reread the first few pages and there are a lot of generalizations being made regarding trans women. I don't fall into most of those generalizations. I didn't fall into the typical male programming. As FA said in a post earlier about being an anomaly, I fall best in that group. I grew up mainly around women. I had mostly female friends. I saw firsthand the things they went through regarding sexism. I've always had a very nurturing mother like personality. I wasn't ashamed to cry in front of others. The list goes on. In a lot of ways pre-transition I was already being my female self and didn't even realize it till now. Which is why transition has been a bit less difficult in some aspects. I didn't have to learn female socialization. My foundation for it was already there. I guess this is why I stay away from the trans community. I just can't relate with a lot of Mtfs when it comes to their difficulties/experiences. In all honesty I feel more alone than anything. But regardless I'd like to one day be more involved at some point. Which is why I'm posting here now  :). I just wanna help by sharing my own experiences. Maybe there is someone else out there just like me.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 21, 2014, 02:39:39 AM
I honestly don't know.  I don't think you should have to prove anything to talk about it.  The simple fact you are AFAB means you have every right to talk about it.  Just as AMAB have the right to talk about being raised AMAB.  I feel awful that this is even a thing that happens, that you and everyone else can't discuss this without having to prove yourselves or being made to feel bad about it.

Discuss it as much as wish. 

YEP! this is what I was thinking. Isn't the point of this forum is for everyone to be able to support each other and hear one another out regarding our experiences??

Quote from: ErinM on March 21, 2014, 02:53:45 AM

Sorry FA, but there you are again. Stop feeling guilty for feeling angry! You should be able to talk about this without needing to defend yourself. You are entitled to feel angry over this. I think it's unhealthy to be holding it back.

Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

QuoteIn all honesty I know that as a trans woman I basically need to learn to set my hang ups aside, shut the hell up about my experiences for a minute and listen to what's being said here. Like you said, there are plenty of other threads out there for us MAAB folks to discuss our issues.

I can never know first what it's like to experience sexism as a child, but I should be willing to hear what FAAB people experienced without trying to trivialize or downplaying it.

Well, there's a lot of pressure on trans women and I understand that. And I know that generally you all have a lot more pressure than I have. It's a much scarier, and more dangerous world out there for trans women. And I know you all are made to feel defensive in so many respects. I just wish it wasn't so. But it's really okay not to have had an AFAB experience. It really is. It means absolutely nothing for your status as woman. Really, it may even be a blessing (I sometimes feel blessed at not having male restrictions drilled into me). And I will never know what it is to be a middle aged or old woman like you will.

going on 62, it's not going to be a beautiful new body for me.
I enjoy the female emotions (though they baffle me at times) and the physical changes.
Not so bad, I can switch between genders mentally as needed.
But this breaking down in a puddle of tears for the silliest of reasons has me worried.
There isn't anyone for me to consult or confide in where I live.
In that respect, I'm quite alone.  The doctors here give me some seriously no-way looks and quickly shut me down if I try to bring it up. 

A true mature and transparent support site lends support to all (who agree to ToS).
As FA has eluded dealing with our pasts, our feelings our experiences are not easy.

He has done so with great feeling and understanding.

Late bloomer, you are welcome and your sisters and brothers are here for you ALL of the time. As we all are for each other.

Hugs to everyone

Cindy

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

It shouldn't be a debate. But it still is. So little actually seems to move forward.

There is a really screwed up sick feeling to having to scream really loud in order to convince people you are damaged. It can make you feel pretty damn worthless to be forced to beg people to understand that things hurt.

Also, you really don't need to say "other people growing up as women had it worse" every time. There isn't any competition. Your experiences are unique to you, and the way you feel about them are the way you feel about them. There isn't a wrong way to feel. You are 100% justified in feeling. And like I've said before: feeling things doesn't make you weak, it makes you, you. And nothing that hurts sounds trivial to me.

I'm really sorry you don't feel safe enough here to talk about it here. I think I kind of contributed to the problem here and I'm sorry. I can get kind of defensive when I feel like people are telling me what I am like, or what my life was like. That wasn't you, but it was a thing that happened and I responded to in the same thread, and probably I shouldn't have because you could have used your own space. So, sorry. :(

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 03:10:03 AM
Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

Of course most guys don't talk about it. Most guys never experienced it and at the risk of resorting to generalizations, guys seem to have a lot of issues talking about anything relating to their feelings or anything personal for that matter. Society traditionally has frowned upon it. It seems like a bit of a nasty paradox that you feel you can't talk about your restrictions growing up perceived as a girl because of the restrictions you feel as a man.

Quote
Well, there's a lot of pressure on trans women and I understand that. And I know that generally you all have a lot more pressure than I have. It's a much scarier, and more dangerous world out there for trans women. And I know you all are made to feel defensive in so many respects. I just wish it wasn't so. But it's really okay not to have had an AFAB experience. It really is. It means absolutely nothing for your status as woman. Really, it may even be a blessing (I sometimes feel blessed at not having male restrictions drilled into me). And I will never know what it is to be a middle aged or old woman like you will.

I thank you for that. The reality is that women are at least granted a lot more latitude when talking about their experiences and feelings. I thank The Universe that I was able to have as many female friends as I did growing up because I at least had the someone to talk about at least some of what was going on for me.

Talking about these kind of things is like playing Hot Potato with a live hand grenade, but you created this thread for a reason. I for one want to see you feel like you can speak your peace without judgement or fear of stepping on anyone's toes.

I didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

I've noticed lately..not accusing anyone..but I've noticed that there are some transmen who wana have their cake and eat it too. They wana cash in on male privilege, have their male identity but still say they understand the female experience better than transwomen.

Once again I didn't really read the whole topic so sorry if I'm repeating someone.

Anywho, here's the thing for me. I've wanted to be female since I was 5. I've always embodied femininity as I could. When I was a kid, people always asked my mom about her daughter cuz yeah. Everybody thought I was a girl. Boy mode is hard for me, legit. Like, if my hair is longer than 3 inches I generally don't pass a boy ever.

I'm 18 years old. I was like 17 or just turning 18 when I started transition. Since then there's probably been a period of 3 mos at best where I passec as male. Every other second, I've lived as female.

I know what it's like to have a panic attack in a dark parking lot cuz a skeevy guy followed me out. Or at a rest stop or whereverf else. I know what its like to be sexually intimidated and harassed..and even more though I dont like to discuss it (I have been, lately, but in more safe environments than this).

I know what its like ti be trivialized, maginalized and ignored. I've never really known what its like to feel like I'm important or matter, and yeah I use sex a lot and ya know what the sick thing is? I know why I do. Its cuz that way guys SEE me. I don't mind being objectified to an extent because honestly its better than feeling like nothing.

So to sit there and say cuz some MtFs parody womanhood that means every transgirl does, rubs me the wrong way. I know I know the female experience because I know at the end of the day thats not stuff a man can feel. Nobody sees a man in me. And at the end of the day this is my life, I'm going to have to face this forever, cuz its just who I am, and i can never change that.The fact is, for transmen? Who they are is someone who's lucky enough to feel like a man inside, so they can take a drug that'll make them matter.

Sorry if it makes no sense, ima bit drunk

And i wanted to add, I love transmen, btw, oh my god I loove transmen, some of the sweetest people I ever met were transguys. So please don't think that post was bashing, I'm just trying to be real about the complexities and nuances of individual experience. Generalizations are never good, that's all.

I guess for me it comes from the perspective of growing up without ANY kind of real socialization. I was homeschooled, didn't have many friends, most people thought I was a girl till I was a teenager, and my mom never really forced gender roles on me or my siblings. So the male experience is genuinely a mystery to me..

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 04:56:23 AM
I didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

Might I suggest you go back and read this thread in its entirety?

Quote from: ErinM on March 21, 2014, 05:22:19 AM
Might I suggest you go back and read this thread in its entirety?

7 pages? Not very realistic at this hour and frame of mind. I've breezed through a bit and I think what I said applies to the earlier comments. Def NOT targeting any individual here (specifically NOT the OP, I like him a tonn, and I understand his initial point). Just ranting about a certain stupid thought process. Janet Mock said it best "I was born a baby". I didn't grow up in a very gendered environment at all...I didn't really grow up as "a little boy" truthfully I barely grew up as a person. I only came into my own in adulthood, so pretty recently, and so far it's been completely female.

Just saying, don't talk about how someone grew up like you know, just cuz you know they have a penis or a vagina. Childhood experiences are very nuanced cuz at the end iften times kids blend together with less differentiating. The way I grew? My mom loved us all the same, but my dad? Ohh he looved my masculine sister. Shes genderqueer now, but ohh she was the smart one. The athletic one. They played sports and she was talented and go a have a good career one day. Me? I liked to play girl games and toys and I was queit. I was the stupid, worthless one the one that was everybodys punching bag including an old pervert and yeah, I think it was cuz I wa female inside. I was too feminine and weak.

I'm sorry for the rant. Chidhood is not a discussion for a late night (early morning?), drunken post break up stupor lool. So sorry everybody rant over. Everybodys different! Let's all just get along and accept ecerybodys experience without comparing, thanks

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 05:10:18 AM
And i wanted to add, I love transmen, btw, oh my god I loove transmen, some of the sweetest people I ever met were transguys. So please don't think that post was bashing, I'm just trying to be real about the complexities and nuances of individual experience. Generalizations are never good, that's all.

I guess for me it comes from the perspective of growing up without ANY kind of real socialization. I was homeschooled, didn't have many friends, most people thought I was a girl till I was a teenager, and my mom never really forced gender roles on me or my siblings. So the male experience is genuinely a mystery to me..

Well, you're certainly a pretty lady, so I don't doubt you're experiencing womanhood and everything positive and negative about it now. But that's the key word - now. There's a lot between 0 and 17.

QuoteI didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

I've noticed lately..not accusing anyone..but I've noticed that there are some transmen who wana have their cake and eat it too. They wana cash in on male privilege, have their male identity but still say they understand the female experience better than transwomen.

Not sure if you're referring to my posts or not. But honestly, yeah as far as being a 0-27 girl, I do know something. Because I was. I know what it is to be a young girl and young woman. My being male or having a 'male brain' (which I think is too simplistic an explanation) or whatever doesn't change that. And in a way, yeah, I have experienced being female in ways trans women don't. Just like they've experienced being male in ways I never will. No matter how girly a trans girl was, she wasn't born into being female. I was. So, I do know something about the female experience.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 05:35:09 AM
Well, you're certainly a pretty lady, so I don't doubt you're experiencing womanhood and everything positive and negative about it now. But that's the key word - now. There's a lot between 0 and 17.

Not sure if you're referring to my posts or not. But honestly, yeah as far as being a 0-27 girl, I do know something. Because I was. I know what it is to be a young girl and young woman. My being male or having a 'male brain' (which I think is too simplistic an explanation) or whatever doesn't change that. And in a way, yeah, I have experienced being female in ways trans women don't. Just like they've experienced being male in ways I never will. No matter how girly a trans girl was, she wasn't born into being female. I was. So, I do know something about the female experience.

Not for me! There wasn't anything. Like you people have no idea how I grew up or a lot of people. Like..no friends. No boyfriends, hah, right. No internet till I was a teenager. Just a weird family that didn't like me cuz I wa feminine and stupid and weak. Like you have no idea. It didn't feel like being a boy and it didn't even feel like being a person and I forget a lot of it. But whatever

Read my above post I'm not go a repeat myself.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 05:27:39 AM
7 pages? Not very realistic at this hour and frame of mind. I've breezed through a bit and I think what I said applies to the earlier comments. Def NOT targeting any individual here (specifically NOT the OP, I like him a tonn, and I understand his initial point). Just ranting about a certain stupid thought process. Janet Mock said it best "I was born a baby". I didn't grow up in a very gendered environment at all...I didn't really grow up as "a little boy" truthfully I barely grew up as a person. I only came into my own in adulthood, so pretty recently, and so far it's been completely female.

Just saying, don't talk about how someone grew up like you know, just cuz you know they have a penis or a vagina. Childhood experiences are very nuanced cuz at the end iften times kids blend together with less differentiating. The way I grew? My mom loved us all the same, but my dad? Ohh he looved my masculine sister. Shes genderqueer now, but ohh she was the smart one. The athletic one. They played sports and she was talented and go a have a good career one day. Me? I liked to play girl games and toys and I was queit. I was the stupid, worthless one the one that was everybodys punching bag including an old pervert and yeah, I think it was cuz I wa female inside. I was too feminine and weak.

I'm sorry for the rant. Chidhood is not a discussion for a late night (early morning?), drunken post break up stupor lool. So sorry everybody rant over. Everybodys different! Let's all just get along and accept ecerybodys experience without comparing, thanks

I hear what you are saying, but stand by my suggestion. Perhaps come back when you have the time and a clear head. I can't help but think you might benefit for the read. I know I've benefited from the discussion.

And its not like I even looked a boy from 0-13. I just looked like a little girl and sounded and acted like a little girl and ohh yeah...WAS a girl inside. Long hair, gender neutral clothes. I could post pics haha. So now we're talking 13-17..where was I? Ohh, yeah, in my room contemplating suicide. Geee, my male privilege is showing, better check myself, here. My life is set now. A ->-bleeped-<- with no diploma, no money, no job about to resort to escorting. Thank god I had penis growing up, right dude? Like legit haha

And you know what this whole privilege debate is just stupid. It makes everybody insecure and start talking crap about other peoples experiences so they feel less privileged. I'm privilged in my ways but NOT for growing up with a penis, sorry. I'm just being real

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 03:10:03 AM
Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

I'm currently struggling with this too. I really need to talk about what's going on with me before I tear myself apart (figuratively), but guys don't talk about that kind of stuff.

Quote from: Sarah7 on March 21, 2014, 04:02:13 AM
Also, you really don't need to say "other people growing up as women had it worse" every time. There isn't any competition. Your experiences are unique to you, and the way you feel about them are the way you feel about them. There isn't a wrong way to feel. You are 100% justified in feeling. And like I've said before: feeling things doesn't make you weak, it makes you, you. And nothing that hurts sounds trivial to me.

This. This is something I see in other places as well and it makes no sense.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 04:56:23 AM
I know what its like ti be trivialized, maginalized and ignored. I've never really known what its like to feel like I'm important or matter, and yeah I use sex a lot and ya know what the sick thing is? I know why I do. Its cuz that way guys SEE me. I don't mind being objectified to an extent because honestly its better than feeling like nothing.

Oh good I'm not alone.
As for the rest, can we not get into the oppression olympics? It's not a competition and making it so ends up with dismissiveness and hurt feelings all around for no good reason.

FA and Edge:

I'm sorry if this has been answered previously and I'm forgetting it, but could part of your reluctance to talk about this be a fear of making youselves vulnerable?

It would be easily understandable considering the response we've see so far on this thread.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 01:16:43 AM
To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 07:17:44 AM

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 01:16:43 AM
To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...

Well, it is a generalization. But no, I wouldn't be annoyed by people making statements about what it's like to be a man, especially people who have experienced it. I've experienced both and know that there are some basic things to each. Yes, people do expect men to be stoic and unemotional and able to lift anything. I don't think that's stepping on anyone's toes to say that.

And yeah, I get to say that about being AFAB because I've experienced it. Now sure, you will probably never hear that as bluntly as I put it. But really, a woman (especially, a young, pretty woman) is valued for one thing. Men want her for one thing and other women hate/envy her for one thing. Maybe it is different if the woman is old or unattractive or something - I wouldn't know. I know it's an ugly idea. But it's not my idea. I'm just being upfront about it like probably no one else will be to your face. And I don't mean to be nasty about it either. You're a pretty girl, this is the reality hon.

Again, I hate to be crude, but I'll tell you what the older ladies told me when I was a young kid in jail - 'Girl, you sitting on a gold mine'. And honestly, that simple statement sums up a lot of what it means to be a woman and how women are seen in this world.

Quote from: ErinM on March 21, 2014, 06:53:42 AM
FA and Edge:

I'm sorry if this has been answered previously and I'm forgetting it, but could part of your reluctance to talk about this be a fear of making youselves vulnerable?

It would be easily understandable considering the response we've see so far on this thread.

Don't know about FA, but yes for me. That and people tend to misinterpret my words, make false assumptions about me, and ignore things I say which are triggers for me.

It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Quote from: Heather on March 21, 2014, 08:13:16 AM
It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Precisely. All sides should also be allowed to talk about and receive support for their experiences. "Who has it worse" arguments miss both this point and the point about the overhaul.

Quote from: Heather on March 21, 2014, 08:13:16 AM
It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Oh I agree. And I don't doubt it. I hope it doesn't come across I think the grass is greener being a guy. Cause I don't think that. I do however think that sometimes there's a lot of programming to be undone both ways.

Quote from: Edge on March 21, 2014, 08:22:02 AM

Quote from: Heather on March 21, 2014, 08:13:16 AM
It's amusing everybody always thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. Being raised female or male is not a pleasant experience. The way society is set up hurts both males and females and is in need of a serious overhaul.

Precisely. All sides should also be allowed to talk about and receive support for their experiences. "Who has it worse" arguments miss both this point and the point about the overhaul.

I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 08:26:33 AM
I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

Not at all. Sorry I am bad with words and "sides" was the only one I could think of. I didn't mean as in taking sides. Once I find a word that fits better, I'll edit it.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 08:26:33 AM
I agree. However, I don't think talking about what women experience in an unequal society is taking sides.

No it's not women are not treated like equals and it's sad. I may not have been treated like a female from birth but I am treated like one now. And I'm not one of these trans women who went into this thinking women have it so super awesome! Actually I knew my life was going to get more difficult even if I did pass 100%. And I know my life is going to get harder because not only am I a woman I'm a aging woman which society doesn't place a high value on. But this is my life and while a may not have had the opportunity to spend my whole life as one I am going to spend the rest of my life as a woman and be treated like one.

I am a bit confused by this thread to be honest.

FA, as well as any AFAB people certainly had a different experience growing up, and while I would dispute an absolute generalization on any childhood being the same as one another, or having the same hangups; it would be foolish to think that a large swath of the AFABs didn't have commonalities at least in western culture. This undoubtedly has effects on young people who internalize messages delivered to them, and those that seem to escape this sort of programming I will concede do seem like a tiny minority and are exceptions to the rule, and their existence doesn't diminish the struggles of the average AFAB cis or trans.

The confusing part comes in to, why at the start of the thread was there so much talk of Transwomen not understanding femininity, with implications that many were clothes obsessed posers? That was the part that invited a rather defensive response from transwomen, and to be fair that particular part wasn't said by the OP at all....

Though, I am confused exactly what the OP was getting at by saying the part about the "whale" of a woman not being able to wear what she wants, since this social pushback would be similar to all women AFAB or not. Society views a woman's worth by her looks, we all know that and it really doesn't seem like it makes a difference if she was AFAB, which made me a bit confused exactly how it relates to the AFAB experience the OP was talking about. I may well have just misunderstood the point being made (though, to be fair to overweight readers, 'Whale' is probably not the best word choice here).

Regardless, if you look at the remarks made in the start of the thread by thephoenix, and then commented on by others, I think it becomes clear where the thread went off track, because I think the goal was to discuss the negative effects of female programming on men; which has nothing to do with being critical of women liking dresses because "real" women wear pants more often.

So, how about we forget about those comments which naturally put us MTFs on the defensive, and focus on the actual hangups and issues caused by an AFAB upbringing. As I understand it FA isn't trying to say anything to the effect that MAAB transwomen don't understand what it is like to be a woman, merely saying that he and most AFABs have a different experience growing up. Guys seem to have a tough enough time expressing themselves in this regard as is, no need to make them walk on eggshells because of something someone else said.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 07:36:53 AM
Yeah I get it, but again I think it's the way you are talking about it that is making people do that. You're not just saying that girls are treated worse in X ways or usually have had X negative experience. Imagine if an MTF said, "it is way worse to be a boy. It is a universally horrible experience. Being a boy equals being constantly alone in the dark. Boys are never helped or supported in things they want to do. If they don't constantly prove themselves then everybody will treat them like ->-bleeped-<-. Like less than ->-bleeped-<-, but girls don't need to do that to be loved. That's just what life is like when you're a robot breadwinner, nobody cares about men at all, nobody values men for anything more than their technical knowledge and their muscles, I know this because I had to be raised as a boy and that is something an FAAB boy will never totally experience."

Some part of that would probably make people who chose to live as a man a little annoyed because a large element to those feelings is personal, not universal. Those are exaggerations, generalizations based on personal impressions of being a man. But you get to do the reverse because of feminism? I just think you can sometimes use some generalizations about female experience to go a little overboard and paint this emotionally charged picture that sort of just reduces the experience of any and every woman or person perceived as a woman into this little box. Like, you said before that all a woman is to people is pussy. How is someone supposed to feel about that? Do you really get to say that just because you are FAAB? Idk, i just think it sounds like a really personal feeling about something and you can't say it so absolutely...


Well, it is a generalization. But no, I wouldn't be annoyed by people making statements about what it's like to be a man, especially people who have experienced it. I've experienced both and know that there are some basic things to each. Yes, people do expect men to be stoic and unemotional and able to lift anything. I don't think that's stepping on anyone's toes to say that.

And yeah, I get to say that about being AFAB because I've experienced it. Now sure, you will probably never hear that as bluntly as I put it. But really, a woman (especially, a young, pretty woman) is valued for one thing. Men want her for one thing and other women hate/envy her for one thing. Maybe it is different if the woman is old or unattractive or something - I wouldn't know. I know it's an ugly idea. But it's not my idea. I'm just being upfront about it like probably no one else will be to your face. And I don't mean to be nasty about it either. You're a pretty girl, this is the reality hon.

Again, I hate to be crude, but I'll tell you what the older ladies told me when I was a young kid in jail - 'Girl, you sitting on a gold mine'. And honestly, that simple statement sums up a lot of what it means to be a woman and how women are seen in this world.

It's not like I don't know what you mean... I do because I have experienced it. I do every day. I just don't think you get to reduce my life to that bc you were born female. Yeah it is a part of my life and it is frustrating to me. My boyfriend just said ->-bleeped-<- like that to me while writing this post. That he bets I wish he would give me money just for being a good girl. It was sort of a joke but it's actually where and what I am in life. Every part of my life is decided by someone else and how much freedom they decide I deserce for being a good girl. Just sit there and look pretty. That's all I do and I'm good at it. I got told I was pretty literally like 15 times yesterday cuz that's the only compliment that occurs to anyone when they meet me. but at least let me believe that that isn't all my life is. You said you're just speaking about the unique FAAB experience but you are not. You are speaking for me too. :(

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 21, 2014, 09:05:09 AMI understand that people who are born female do have a tough time but it isn't THAT hard. I think we are over-exaggerating this. To me, this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

For some of us, it is. Just because it wasn't for you or for other people you know doesn't mean we're over-exaggerating and just looking for sympathy.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 09:18:47 AM

It's not like I don't know what you mean... I do because I have experienced it. I do every day. I just don't think you get to reduce my life to that bc you were born female. Yeah it is a part of my life and it is frustrating to me. My boyfriend just said ->-bleeped-<- like that to me while writing this post. That he bets I wish he would give me money just for being a good girl. It was sort of a joke but it's actually where and what I am in life. Every part of my life is decided by someone else and how much freedom they decide I deserce for being a good girl. Just sit there and look pretty. That's all I do and I'm good at it. I got told I was pretty literally like 15 times yesterday cuz that's the only compliment that occurs to anyone when they meet me. but at least let me believe that that isn't all my life is. You said you're just speaking about the unique FAAB experience but you are not. You are speaking for me too. :(

Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 21, 2014, 09:05:09 AM
...this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

This, in a nutshell, is pretty much the purpose of a support forum. Isn't it? ;)

I don't think that we're looking for sympathy per se. I just think that some of us are trying to come to terms with how we feel about the way we were raised. The way FAAB children are raised is very different today than it was in earlier decades. It's difficult for people who weren't around in those days to appreciate exactly what we went through.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 21, 2014, 09:33:58 AM

Quote from: Calder Smith on March 21, 2014, 09:05:09 AM
...this thread seems like us FTMs just looking for sympathy.

This, in a nutshell, is pretty much the purpose of a support forum. Isn't it? ;)

I don't think that we're looking for sympathy per se. I just think that some of us are trying to come to terms with how we feel about the way we were raised. The way FAAB children are raised is very different today than it was in earlier decades. It's difficult for people who weren't around in those days to appreciate exactly what we went through.

Exactly. It's easy to say when you're young and haven't even begun transition. I was a sexist MF-er before transition too.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 09:26:50 AM
Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/

It's difficult for people these days too although maybe in different ways.

Quote from: Edge on March 21, 2014, 09:42:13 AM
It's difficult for people these days too although maybe in different ways.

Yes - and one of those ways is, ironically, the improved visibility of trans* people. Because these days, unaccepting parents can invalidate their kids by saying that they're just 'copying what they've seen on Jerry Springer' or 'getting crazy ideas off the Internet'.

Those are valid topics too, and worthy of discussion whenever the time is right.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 09:41:11 AM

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 09:26:50 AM
Well hon, I am. I know what it is to be a young, pretty thing. Just because it sucks doesn't mean I'm wrong.

But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/

I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 21, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
Yes - and one of those ways is, ironically, the improved visibility of trans* people. Because these days, unaccepting parents can invalidate their kids by saying that they're just 'copying what they've seen on Jerry Springer' or 'getting crazy ideas off the Internet'.

Those are valid topics too, and worthy of discussion whenever the time is right.

I was actually referring to the women or people perceived as women seen as sex objects thing, but that's a possibility too.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 09:52:44 AM
But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/


I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 10:15:16 AM
OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all Ia to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

I have a personality too and that didn't stop what happened with me.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 10:15:16 AM

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 09:52:44 AM
But your opinion belongs here and mine does not because you are FAAB. I wouldn't care if it wasn't like yours is the real one. But the need for the distinction makes it feel that way. I dont even really own how I feel about myself cause feminism knows what's up with people like me. Sorry if I'm just being difficult :/


I'm not sure what you mean hon. You don't think I really believe women are less, do you? I don't. I just know this is what society believes. However you dress it down - CEOs, lawyers, presidents even - they all want what you're sitting on. It makes the world go round. Other people will tell you different, they'll spout a lot of affirmative BS. But in the end, you're a woman.
Don't kill the messenger honey.

OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

Quote from: Edge on March 21, 2014, 10:17:13 AM
I have a personality too and that didn't stop what happened with me.

Sorry I didn't get you 100% D:

You mean that didn't stop you getting that treatment and being viewed that way with people? Yeah I guess it would not. I'm always surprised that people don't even seen to realize or care that I have like no personality of my own, I just latch onto whoever they are....

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:30:08 AM
OK lol I give up. I had an opinion but I lost it. This always happens... why do I even post. Seriously. But no I didn't think you thought that... I just don't wanna believe that's all I am to people but it is probably true cuz I have no personality anyway.


Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

Well thanks. I'm not gonna say I did grow up that way and start it all over again but being abused makes you feel that way and see that in everybody. So.. idk. It's not like I just can't imagine something like that though.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:30:08 AM

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

That's always been the way it is and unfortunately so many women have caved into that male visualization game and get big breast implants in order to be seen as attractive by men. It's sadly pathetic that anyone would want to be known as the sum total of their body parts! Then there are trans women who wind up with oversized breast implants because they naturally retain that visualized image of what in their minds would make them look more female. But oh well, huh? Back in the day I was looking after three lactating Viet Cong mothers who were going to be transported to Saigon, I had to chase away several groups of morons that felt they had the right to peek and ogle, it filled me with disgust.

Quote from: Hikari on March 21, 2014, 08:54:01 AM
I am a bit confused by this thread to be honest.

FA, as well as any AFAB people certainly had a different experience growing up, and while I would dispute an absolute generalization on any childhood being the same as one another, or having the same hangups; it would be foolish to think that a large swath of the AFABs didn't have commonalities at least in western culture. This undoubtedly has effects on young people who internalize messages delivered to them, and those that seem to escape this sort of programming I will concede do seem like a tiny minority and are exceptions to the rule, and their existence doesn't diminish the struggles of the average AFAB cis or trans.

The confusing part comes in to, why at the start of the thread was there so much talk of Transwomen not understanding femininity, with implications that many were clothes obsessed posers? That was the part that invited a rather defensive response from transwomen, and to be fair that particular part wasn't said by the OP at all....

Though, I am confused exactly what the OP was getting at by saying the part about the "whale" of a woman not being able to wear what she wants, since this social pushback would be similar to all women AFAB or not. Society views a woman's worth by her looks, we all know that and it really doesn't seem like it makes a difference if she was AFAB, which made me a bit confused exactly how it relates to the AFAB experience the OP was talking about. I may well have just misunderstood the point being made (though, to be fair to overweight readers, 'Whale' is probably not the best word choice here).

Regardless, if you look at the remarks made in the start of the thread by thephoenix, and then commented on by others, I think it becomes clear where the thread went off track, because I think the goal was to discuss the negative effects of female programming on men; which has nothing to do with being critical of women liking dresses because "real" women wear pants more often.

So, how about we forget about those comments which naturally put us MTFs on the defensive, and focus on the actual hangups and issues caused by an AFAB upbringing. As I understand it FA isn't trying to say anything to the effect that MAAB transwomen don't understand what it is like to be a woman, merely saying that he and most AFABs have a different experience growing up. Guys seem to have a tough enough time expressing themselves in this regard as is, no need to make them walk on eggshells because of something someone else said.

Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  :embarrassed: I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

Quote from: Shantel on March 21, 2014, 10:49:20 AM

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:30:08 AM

Aww hon. I really, really didn't mean to hurt you. I'm speaking in blunt terms and sadly as a girl, it probably is how the world sees you. But people who love you and care about you don't see you that way. But yeah, to be a girl is basically to be a sex object. And yeah, it's awful. That's the whole point. It doesn't mean people don't live fulfilling lives as women, because they do. And you are too. But the whole 'woman as body' thing is very damaging to women. That's all. I mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

That's always been the way it is and unfortunately so many women have caved into that male visualization game and get big breast implants in order to be seen as attractive by men. It's sadly pathetic that anyone would want to be known as the sum total of their body parts! Then there are trans women who wind up with oversized breast implants because they naturally retain that visualized image of what in their minds would make them look more female. But oh well, huh? Back in the day I was looking after three lactating Viet Cong mothers who were going to be transported to Saigon, I had to chase away several groups of morons that felt they had the right to peek and ogle, it filled me with disgust.

Yeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  :( The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:58:03 AM
Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  :embarrassed: I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

Yeh, I probably wouldn't have said anything if not for multiple posts about mtfs on the first page.  It would be like a post about AMAB diverging into how FTMs' masculinity is suspect because being a man is more than sporting a beard and calling each other dude, and when you responded being told that you're making this about yourself.  Again, apologies for any misunderstandings, FA.  You're a wonderful person and I've always held the highest respect for you on these forums.  :)

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 10:45:02 AM
Sorry I didn't get you 100% D:

You mean that didn't stop you getting that treatment and being viewed that way with people? Yeah I guess it would not. I'm always surprised that people don't even seen to realize or care that I have like no personality of my own, I just latch onto whoever they are....

That reminds me. I was going to share some things I was taught. I'll get to it. I've just got several things going on at once.

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 11:31:21 AMYou're a wonderful person and I've always held the highest respect for you on these forums.  :)

I second this. Also, my respect for FA has grown.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:58:03 AM
Ohhh, guess you're right hon. Probably many of the replies weren't meant for me.  :embarrassed: I didn't realize the thread got so off track.

Thanks sweetie.

Yeah, it happens alot, I actually had to reread things to realize, that you were not the one at all who brought up transwomen not really understanding women. Then, everything you said made a great deal more sense. I was just reacting badly to the notion especially with my style being a hippy-goth mixture that wearing skirts and dresses is somehow less feminine, because it isn't authentic enough. None of that really at all had anything to do what you wrote about, and I am sorry I made the confusion there.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 10:30:08 AMI mean imagine growing up with that message - that you are a body, a sex object - and only worth how good you are in that role - how thin you are, how big your tits are, your ass, etc.

Things get even weirder if you have a male identity and don't even want that body in the first place. That's what happened to me, but I didn't know about trans people when I was a teenager. So in the locker room, all the focus was on chests and periods and typical girls' milestones...I wanted them so that I would be normal and fit in, but I didn't really want them. And I didn't know why. I just knew that inside my head, I was a boy...but I didn't let the two parts of me talk to each other, so I never made the full connection.

What to do? Oddly enough, I wound up doing what a lot of cis girls do: I went overboard and tried to really nail the part. Be sexy, show off what I had. But that just made me feel worse. Once I figured out what I was, I stopped doing all of that, and I thought that the bad feelings came from my transness. Years later, I began to realize that lots of real women feel it, too. The double standard, the sense that they are selling themselves out or buying into some cheap and degrading trap, the desperation that goes along with that whole "sexy woman" role.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 11:05:14 AMYeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  :( The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

You wanna know something really screwed up? Sometimes it feels validating to be treated as an object.

Despite how much I hate that this is a thing in our world, how vile and demeaning it is to be reduced to my flesh... I know that's how females are perceived. And getting that kind of negative attention is instant confirmation that I am female. And that I'm a valuable female, since flesh is the primary thing on which we are judged.

Even now I still get that sick rush of pride to be catcalled, followed by the backlash of feeling like total dirt.

There are some pretty unpleasant interactions between gender norms and being trans.

Quote from: Arch on March 21, 2014, 02:50:53 PMWhat to do? Oddly enough, I wound up doing what a lot of cis girls do: I went overboard and  Years later, I began to realize that lots of real women feel it, too. The double standard, the sense that they are selling themselves out or buying into some cheap and degrading trap, the desperation that goes along with that whole "sexy woman" role.

It is incredibly hard not to want to be sexy when society puts so much effort into telling you that that matters more than anything else. That I intellectually know it's vile bull->-bleeped-<- doesn't change the emotional pull.

And, I dunno. I didn't grow up with that direct peer pressure, but I still got that expectation ingrained in me somehow. I don't honestly know any young trans women who don't feel that pressure to be attractive. And then the combination with the physical dysphoria...

I'm still fighting with myself over whether I want to get a boob job. Sigh.


FA, maybe you'd share an experience that isn't too close to home for you? I promise to bite anyone who is mean to you.

Quote from: Sarah7 on March 21, 2014, 06:20:36 PM

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 11:05:14 AMYeah, it is disgusting, really. And sad.  :( The whole thing. I really don't mean to hurt young girls by talking about this. And thankfully, they probably won't hear it much in such stark terms. Or not. I mean, most of us here have heard guys talking. Or even joined in ourselves. We know what it's like. Thankfully (or not) guys aren't quite as critical as women are to themselves or each other.

You wanna know something really screwed up? Sometimes it feels validating to be treated as an object.

Despite how much I hate that this is a thing in our world, how vile and demeaning it is to be reduced to my flesh... I know that's how females are perceived. And getting that kind of negative attention is instant confirmation that I am female. And that I'm a valuable female, since flesh is the primary thing on which we are judged.

Even now I still get that sick rush of pride to be catcalled, followed by the backlash of feeling like total dirt.

There are some pretty unpleasant interactions between gender norms and being trans.

I've heard cis women who have never fit the 'attractive mold' say something similar - that while they're ranting and raving against this treatment of women, they're secretly envious they don't get catcalled or on the rare occasion they do, feel validated. Like they almost need this treatment to feel recognized as a woman.

And post-menopausal women go through similar. They're no longer noticed and start to feel invisible.