Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity

- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral)

- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?).

I think it varies from person to person. For me identifying as androgyne means, that I have both male and female traits and that I can't put myself into a box 'male' or 'female'. I was assigned male at birth and I feel mostly alright with my male body, but I've always had a strong desire to dress and present myself in a feminine fashion.

I also identify as genderqueer.

Tamara Thor's right. It varies. There do seem to be a lot of different terms under the androgyne or non-binary umbrella:

Quote from: Rena on March 24, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity this is often referred to as 'neutrois'

- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral) often referred to as simply 'fluid'

- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?). not sure on this one, perhaps third gender or androgyne

There's another one called bigender which I think is someone who feels two distinct sides to their gender identity rather than a mix. This person might even give the male and female sides different names.

At the risk of sounding a bit crass, androgyne was a label that became incredibly popular in the nineties and has since been forgotten.  There are literally hundreds of labels for non-binary identities.  I happen to like genderqueer, because it's designed to actively reject both male and female standards, not combining them...but there are as many different labels as there are people.  Generally, most of them refer to a very similar set of concepts, but I think androgyne is more of a "both" label, and genderqueer says "nether"-though in my personal opinion, all of this is moot, because they represent the rejection of the same idea.

I happen to think that gender itself is really just a set of boxes, and that beyond anatomy (damn anatomy!), nothing is really inherently "male" or "female"...I suppose these labels are an incredibly wonderful way to protest the way we've structured this system though. 

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on March 25, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
At the risk of sounding a bit crass, androgyne was a label that became incredibly popular in the nineties and has since been forgotten.  There are literally hundreds of labels for non-binary identities.  I happen to like genderqueer, because it's designed to actively reject both male and female standards, not combining them...but there are as many different labels as there are people.  Generally, most of them refer to a very similar set of concepts, but I think androgyne is more of a "both" label, and genderqueer says "nether"-though in my personal opinion, all of this is moot, because they represent the rejection of the same idea.

I happen to think that gender itself is really just a set of boxes, and that beyond anatomy (damn anatomy!), nothing is really inherently "male" or "female"...I suppose these labels are an incredibly wonderful way to protest the way we've structured this system though.

Thanks for the insightful post.

I don't know what I am. But I feel okay with having some 'maleness' inside but feel bad about being a male on the outside.

My understanding is that Androgyne is a term that can mean any non-binary gender inentity

Quote from: Rena on March 24, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity

this is genelaly seen as agender or neturos

Quote
- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral)

if you change the word expresion to identity then this is generaly seen as gender fluid or if jumping between 2 points maybe bigender.
expresion and identity are often 2 different things.  Most Trans people try to find a way of expressing themselves to match their identity.

Quote
- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?).

this is where I see myself being both Male and female at same time all the time.  I personally like the term intergender.

all of these gender identities come under the androgyne and non binary umbrellas.

Quote from: FA on March 24, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Tamara Thor's right. It varies. There do seem to be a lot of different terms under the androgyne or non-binary umbrella:

There's another one called bigender which I think is someone who feels two distinct sides to their gender identity rather than a mix. This person might even give the male and female sides different names.

There's a lot of similarity between bigender and genderfluid...I'm not entirely sure they are separate things, in that both sort of describe me, in that I'm fine, even more comfortable in between, I definitely have the same "flips" bigender identifying people do, but on a certain level I increasingly see myself as non-binary/androgyne, as a whole of what I am...which still always is a girl in guy's body, but I entirely don't hate that body, and what comes with it, so I identify as a guy in some ways also. Who's to say I can't like being a girl in a guy's body?

I understand.  I'm confused too.

Over the time I have spent here, I think I've heard more different ways of describing what it is to be Non-binary.
The conclusion I've come to realize is that everyone has a different viewpoint on what any given term means.
This leaves them without much actual meaning and their descriptions much the same way.
But what does come to the front of these discussions is that everyone does have a descriptive way of defining themselves.
So more to the point, try being descriptive in your description of yourself.
Rather than trying to define yourself with terms that have descriptions all over the place.
It isn't necessary to use a term, and when the descriptions of those terms are defined differently from one person to the next, what do they accomplish?
By trying to box yourself into a term, the short hand of a description, you only set yourself and others up for confusion.
I love reading the descriptive nature of you all, but the hope of there being the possibility of finalizing them into terms doesn't exist.
The very nature of us defies this because none of us are the same.
This shows in the way everyone uses descriptive ways to describe themselves.
I have yet to see one that falls directly into a term and that term only.
We either are combinations of those terms or use them differently than the next person.
To be who you are, to express who you are, be descriptive.
Instead of trying to force a term or description to yourself.
I get that we all want to be able to use a term that accurately describes us, but using terms that are only partial or using several terms is hard to let others really understand who you are.
I find it much easier to understand any of you with the descriptive nature of what you write, long before I get what you're trying to get across by using confusing terms and their descriptions.
We are unique, you are unique.
Be unique, be descriptive, not a description.
Your descriptiveness defines you to others far more than trying to squeeze yourself into a boxed term.
Even the term non-binary is fuzzy around the edges.
When you think of yourself and write about yourself in descriptive ways, it's easy to understand who you are.
It makes it much easier for you to understand who you are.
But also understand that we all have so much more in common than we do that's different, at the same time.
It's why we can always discuss these things that are unique about ourselves.
Here is a place to find those commonalities and to express ourselves.
Being descriptive lets others know and understand your uniqueness and how you understand others here.
Whether they are non-binary or binary.
Because we all have more in common than we have as differences.
It's been fun,
Ativan

Let's see what the ultimate Androgyne has to say about it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fSFT_IJEzM#t=168

I'm not sure I would be able to classify anyone as the ultimate androgyne.
Andrej is a personality, a model who has gained a certain kind of notoriety, which is fun.
But I don't think that classifies them as the ultimate any more than Ellen as the ultimate lesbian?
Andrej I think of as one of the ultimate models, the versatility is pretty cool.
Just as Ellen is one of the ultimate talk show host.

But the video does make the same point.
Without going into using a term, they instead use descriptive ways to answer the questions,
which really, she was digging for a term for people to use, or for her to use.
Andrej sidestepped that in a very gracious way.

Andrej reminds me of a relationship I had in the early 70's.
'She' would have been described as a ->-bleeped-<- back then,
and had anyone known her like I did, they would have boxed her into that term.
She preferred she as a pronoun and most people understood her to be just that.
But in the privacy of our relationship, we talked a lot about gender kinds of things.
She was very outgoing and light hearted about it. I understood myself much more because of our discussions.
There wasn't such a thing as a non-binary in terms back then, not that I was aware of.
So our discussions revolved around descriptive things rather than a description.
One didn't exist for either of us.
She was more non-binary than binary, one of those people who crosses through that blurred line.
But because of a lack of terms or their descriptions, she chose to present as female rather than male.
Because of family and other things, she did present as a male for their benefit.
She understood it, how that works. She showed me how that worked for me as well.
But I presented as male, despite the feminine thoughts that ran through my head as well as the male ones did.
The time before her was one of massive confusion for me. I didn't feel male or female, yet I felt both.
No terms to use. No descriptions to use.
It was always descriptive in nature, our discussions and more.
A lot of what I have tried to relate lately reflects those times.
It worked for us, there wasn't another way to talk to each other about ourselves.
Over the decades since, many terms and descriptions have popped up.
But it's always been difficult to use them. They just don't quite fit.
Sometimes close enough, but never quite right.

Watching the video reminds me so much about those times and how we talked to each other.
The duality of gender poured out of her in much the same way.
Her sexuality was very much the same way.
We were young and very much in love, so the discussions went into the kind of depth that love allowed.
Nice memories, thanks for posting the video,
Ativan

Thought you'd enjoy it as I did. I suppose having used the term ultimate was a misnomer, but it was her non-binary inner self that she exuded so well that I thought really made the video fit here. And as we saw, the interviewer typically tried to get her stuffed neatly into one gender box or another which as you say, she so neatly sidestepped.

I perceive androgyne is a vague umbrella term, I fit more specifically into genderqueer but I just dislike the queer on the end, connoting the identity too much. Androgyne, is more neutral in it's projection.

Ultimate androgyny, on my mind, would be Eva & Adele.

I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between. But it varies according to the person. There are people who think of androgyne as a very polarized gender.

Quote from: bornpurple on April 22, 2014, 09:15:32 AM
I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between.

You are absolutely correct. :) Well done bornpurple!

Quote from: Emerald on April 22, 2014, 07:28:48 PM

Quote from: bornpurple on April 22, 2014, 09:15:32 AM
I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between.

You are absolutely correct. :) Well done bornpurple!

Good to see you around the forest hon!

This is a good question.  In a way, I am masculine and feminine so I am both but in the same time I am not completely either one so I am neither.  hmmmm.  Am I both or am I neither?  I mean I am both physically because of my male body which has been feminizing more and more each day.  Not completely female and not completely male.  Internally I can access my male side but I usually idle at female.  Do I have to stay on one side of the spectrum most of the time to not be considered androgyne?

Some people say that everyone has masculine and feminine traits.  Is everyone sort of androgyne??  Crap, now I'm going to be thinking about this all day. >.<

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on April 26, 2014, 03:15:39 AM
Some people say that everyone has masculine and feminine traits.  Is everyone sort of androgyne??  Crap, now I'm going to be thinking about this all day. >.<

That is pretty much how I have always thought of it... with gender being very fluid and not constant throughout a person's life. Some are more likely to sway heavily one way or another, while some find themselves a diverse mix of gender identifiers.

Some people have different associations with their internal and external gender. I know many cis women who think of themselves as more androgynous/masculine in action but still present in a very girly way. For myself, I like to present female but my actions and personality in life I consider to be very androgynous. I treasure not feeling obligated to act a certain way based on gender expectations ;)

I think the bottom line here is that everyone, everyone in the world falls somewhere between these two socially constructed golden standards of "masculine" and "feminine".  Androgyne is one word for that.  Queer is another.  There are a hundred others-labels are never in short supply for our community.  But it all comes back to this principle that we do not have to obey these utterly pointless distinctions.

I take E, wear heels, and look fierce in a black dress; I also shave the sides of my head, enjoy a good evening jacket, and I'm one of the most assertive people I know.  I simply do what I prefer, and the ultimate result is, for better or worse, androgynous.  I think that if our society was structured differently, without these crass distinctions of what is "male" and what is "female", just about everyone in the world would be considered androgyne, or genderqueer, or non-binary, or whatever word you'd like to use.  It all comes down to refusing to conform to these traditional views on gender.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on April 26, 2014, 03:48:26 AM
I think the bottom line here is that everyone, everyone in the world falls somewhere between these two socially constructed golden standards of "masculine" and "feminine".  Androgyne is one word for that.  Queer is another.  There are a hundred others-labels are never in short supply for our community.  But it all comes back to this principle that we do not have to obey these utterly pointless distinctions.

I take E, wear heels, and look fierce in a black dress; I also shave the sides of my head, enjoy a good evening jacket, and I'm one of the most assertive people I know.  I simply do what I prefer, and the ultimate result is, for better or worse, androgynous.  I think that if our society was structured differently, without these crass distinctions of what is "male" and what is "female", just about everyone in the world would be considered androgyne, or genderqueer, or non-binary, or whatever word you'd like to use.  It all comes down to refusing to conform to these traditional views on gender.

Right on! :)

"But it all comes back to this principle that we do not have to obey these utterly pointless distinctions."

I refuse to use the 'spectrum' between male and female.
That's the reference used very effectively for those who are in a transition to correct a mistake at birth.
Non-binaries can transition in a sense, but it isn't on that line.
It's more of a separate sort of thing that I see as maybe a circle instead of a line or spectrum.
We're not in between anything. It implies a wrong view to me.
I think of myself and others who consider themselves to be non-binary, as in something more like a sphere.
That spectrum could be a small thing inside of this bubble of gender, It could be outside of it as well.
I find it difficult to compare myself to that spectrum, as I am not transitioning, I have always been pretty much right here.
Somewhere else, where the terms male and female are only words, they have no line between them here.
Am I neither? Maybe. Am I both? Maybe.
But they aren't the ends of anything here, they float around, pretty much like I do at times.
Sometimes I find myself near them, but they do nothing to define me.
I can on occasion, reach out and touch them.
They're different feeling to me, incomplete, I feel that with either or both of them.
They're incomplete because I don't have a need to feel either of them.
Yet they are a part of me, but they don't define me. They're just there.
I know they are for many people, a point of reference, so I use them as such.
But that's all, a point of reference to be able to be descriptive in my dialog.
But there are many more ways to be descriptive as well.
Those are the things that I am.
But as a way of constructing the descriptive that is me, I do use them for the sake of conversation.

To be able to see myself as I truly am, I have to see that as separate from a spectrum.
I'm not in the middle of something, I am me. I always have been.
Of course it changes over time, but that's what we all do as we age, become wiser about life and it's meanings.
It doesn't move along an imaginary line, I reside in a separate place, away from such a thing as a spectrum.
There may be remnants of that spectrum here, but they do not define me.
Just as terms and descriptions can't.
If you want to use a term, that's the shell of the bubble or sphere that is me, just as it is you, too.
Non-binary is the term if you must.
But I don't reside on the shell, the covering.
I'm in there somewhere and it doesn't matter where, being here is enough.
But it is fun to describe, to listen to others descriptive ideas.
We use the same words as binaries use, but they mean something different to us.
Because we are not in between those words, we are here and the meanings are here that we use.
We can speak that language, but we hear something different.
We hear ourselves. We were taught that language, but we don't hear it the same way.
I find it to be similar, but not the same. The meanings push the words in a circle to me.
The words may be the same, but the meanings are not.
They sound the same, yet have a subtle difference that I hear when you talk about yourselves.
We are not a gender on a sliding scale of female to male.
We go farther, we step to the side.
We are a separate gender in the way we think.
We are not this or that, we are who we are.
We have no destination, we have always been here.
A journey to understand ourselves, not to compare ourselves to others.
Yet we can in so many ways, but we can in so many other ways as well.

I have spent a lifetime on this journey to understand, I can feel it coming to an end.
I never found a box or term I wanted to fit myself into, I tried many times, then stopped.
I find myself somewhere else, a place to talk about it in descriptive words.
Those same words that everyone uses, but they mean something different to me now.
That duality of male and female are a singular thing in me.
I'm at peace with myself with that, finally.
I am a different gender, call it what ever you want. Whatever works for you.
I prefer to think of it as not a thing, but a journey, one without a destination.
To talk about where I am, I have to describe that, in descriptive ways.
Using the language as I hear it when I hear you, who are also this gender.

I don't reside in a term, a box.
I have found many of the pieces of a puzzle that this journey is about.
I put them together into something that resembles who I am.
But it's not me, its what I see that simply reflects who I am.
It's singular looking because I feel that way. I'm not done by any means.
But the reflection is one that looks like who I am.
I recognize myself, it's taken a long time, longer than it should have.
I should have stopped comparing myself a long time ago.
I shouldn't have stopped and looked at all those descriptions in all of those boxes.
I did find some useful things, but I found even more on the path I use.
I found better pieces of the puzzle.
To be this gender, I don't have a destination in mind, it's a journey to find the pieces of who I am.
These pieces, I don't have a name or term to call them.
They're just pieces of me, to put together so I can see who I am.
I'm a gender, but more importantly, I can see who I am.
I have a reflection that I finally can recognize as me,
Ativan

Perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying; the idea of a spectrum is utter BS in my mind.  What I was really trying to get at is the idea of rejecting categorization into these two arbitrary groups.  Gender isn't a spectrum.  It's not a bubble either.  It's an idea, and a fairly bad one at that.  ->-bleeped-<- gender.  It sure as hell ->-bleeped-<-ed me!  You're really over-thinking this; the words all represent the same idea, the we don't have to fall into boxes in the first place.  I am non-binary myself, or whatever word you'd like to use, please don't tell me I don't understand!

Lol, I was agreeing with you.
Why I quoted you: "But it all comes back to this principle that we do not have to obey these utterly pointless distinctions."

Just my take on it.
I should have also included this line: It all comes down to refusing to conform to these traditional views on gender.

You don't like the idea of a bubble or that I said it's a different thing separate from a binary spectrum, I can agree with you on that.
But most people who are new and asking about themselves, I can't just say 'screw gender' to them.
It's a simple yet wordy explanation that does away with a spectrum.
I think if you read it as I agree with you, it might read differently.
But it most certainly wasn't against what you said, in fact what you wrote impresses me quite a bit.
The point I was making is that trying out all of the terms and boxes was a waste of my time.
I had to find the things that make me who I am, to figure it out without the baggage of gender. I am just me.
The idea that all of those words and terms are just a shell, a bubble, a sphere, that I don't touch or use.
I say I reside in it somewhere as simply a reference point. To use in conversation.

I fully agree with you, I just don't quite say it the way you do. I'm not allowed to, more or less.
IRL, I have been known to be assertive to the point of having bail arranged for me.
I part the crowds if I need to, I'll back up someone a head taller than me with a nonstop dialogue that ends with applause from the crowd that gathers.
I use a certain face here for reasons that go back a few years.
Wanna talk, get to know me better? Email me or hook up on Facebook, Ativan Prescribed.
I like what you write and I know that attitude very well. I just don't use it here.
My face when I'm not here is one that the hellion I am, shows.
Contact me if you you want to, I think you're someone worth getting to know outside of the walls of the TOS.
Ativan

Speaking of ToS, we can't allow any more f-bombs up in here ;)

Everyone is making really good opinions and this is a great topic & discussion, but we have to steer away from using any foul language. Thank you and carry on!

<3

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on April 26, 2014, 01:17:17 PM
Perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying; the idea of a spectrum is utter BS in my mind...I am non-binary myself, or whatever word you'd like to use, please don't tell me I don't understand!

I don't think it's total BS, to me, it's more of an emotion than anything else though. As such, I don't want to be expected to always feel masculine, as I am usually expected since I have a male body. I wouldn't like always being expected to always feel feminine either. As such, I do think of it as a spectrum, not unlike happiness vs sadness, though it's not really correlated to those two, I can be happy and masculine and I can be happy and feminine.

Haha, I feel like people agreeing with one another and not knowing it is becoming a theme on this forum.  I don't think that being happy with both is BS; I was just talking about the idea of gender being a spectrum.  Sorry if I caused any confusion...

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 27, 2014, 10:47:56 PM
it's more of an emotion than anything else though. As such, I don't want to be expected to always feel masculine, as I am usually expected since I have a male body. I wouldn't like always being expected to always feel feminine either. As such, I do think of it as a spectrum, not unlike happiness vs sadness, though it's not really correlated to those two, I can be happy and masculine and I can be happy and feminine.

You're correct in looking at the emotional values as being a spectrum, as many things can be.
You're also correct in that it's not really a correlation of the two.
The concept of a gender spectrum is usually viewed from a binary perspective.

What's proposed is that such a spectrum for gender isn't necessarily true to non-binaries.
Quite simply because it implies that non-binaries are somewhere in between.
While this is true for binaries in transition, during different phases of transition, it's not the same as non-binary.
On the surface it may appear to be the same, but beneath that is a need to better define the two, binary and non-binary.
I wouldn't say that binaries during transition are simply non-binary during those times, they are still in transition and remain binary.
Proposed are differing views of an alternative to something that is more in line with the view of gender from a non-binary perspective.
A gender spectrum with male and female at it's ends implies a transition from one to the other, not necessarily to the very ends.
But the difficulty arises from the view that non-binaries aren't actually transitioning along this same path.
There are of course many different ways in which non-binaries do transition, but the path taken is different in nature and doesn't apply as easily.
I propose different views at times for non-binaries who are referred to this spectrum of male to female when transition is discussed.

It's a hard thing to just simply dismiss it as a whole.
There are somethings that are similar, but they are just that, similar.
A broader view would be that this spectrum is there, but is only a small part of general overall idea of gender.
Take gender as it is commonly viewed, and dismiss it entirely. Weird thing to think about.
But it is possible and the implications are beneficial in most cases.

It does fall in line with the viewpoint that for non-binaries, the issue isn't where you are on a line, but where you are as a gender in a broader view
The male to female transition is a spectrum for the sake of discussion.
It's proposed that non-binary as a gender, isn't a transitional phase.
It's a separate gender in it's own right.
As such, a spectrum doesn't work, at least not the transitional one.
Transition in the traditional sense that transsexuals use it as, and that's where it's meaning stems from, doesn't describe the transitional views of non-binaries.
Just as the transitional spectrum of non-binaries or lack of one doesn't apply to transsexuals.

It's all arguable, but to what point? To what end does that satisfy any trans person?
The idea and the things being proposed are simply a more refined approach to defining non-binary.
There aren't words in themselves that are in use that accurately describe the views of non-binaries.
We look to concepts instead to try and answer the questions we ask.
The questions and discussions have evolved into a more involved answer that lacks exact words to convey a simple answer.

Simply asking to do away with the idea of gender throws current thinking for everyone involved, all trans people, into disarray.
If there is no gender, then what? The answers become more complex than anyone is really ready for.
Who is ready to discuss ourselves while trying to also do away with gender? It's to ingrained in societies thinking.
That's a separate issue worth discussing, also. It's tossed into the discussion as a possibility.
To do away with gender would benefit in that it does away with the questions themselves.
So for the time being, we try to describe our views as they are able to fit within the current discussions we have.

There is an interest for binaries in who non-binaries are. and vice versa.
To exclude a tool that binaries use with a good deal of success in explaining their transitions, would confuse and complicate the discussions.
To introduce various other ways of describing the non-binary views with in the discussion calls for different approaches.
Not to do away with a tool used and recognized, but to expand on it from a non-binary view.
Nobody is excluded from these discussions, but rather are included as a way to tie the trans experiences together for the sake of discussion.
Its extraordinary what trans people are able to do with the notions of gender.

For society as a whole, trans people are unique in our abilities to view it from a distance that society lacks.
We're doing that right here, right now within our own community to better our discussions of acceptance with society at large.
The discussion is and will always go on. Because it's concepts that are ever evolving in the general direction that gender isn't about differences.
It's something we all have in common, and as such, it has it's place, but not to determine who is right or wrong.
There isn't such a thing in gender as an overall. It's usefulness is limited and should be looked on as what is the same, not what is different.
Doing away with the notion of gender itself would go long ways in simply bringing people together.

These discussions here are very telling of that.
We are not done discussing these things, not by any means.
We need to be able to know what it is we are talking about in order to bring the discussion further into society in a logical and useful manner.
But first we need to know and understand each of us in our own unique ways.

At this point, how we deal with society and it's political agendas both for and against Trans people is paramount to an acceptance.
It's these concepts of ourselves that we need to be able to present to gain such an acceptance.
It's far more important in a discussion like this one, than to say one is right or wrong.
Right or wrong isn't the issue, it's what do we have in common, both here and in society as a whole.
When society asks us a question, we can and should be able to give them the most informed answers we have.
Ativan.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on April 28, 2014, 02:02:01 PM
You're correct in looking at the emotional values as being a spectrum, as many things can be.
You're also correct in that it's not really a correlation of the two.
The concept of a gender spectrum is usually viewed from a binary perspective.

What's proposed is that such a spectrum for gender isn't necessarily true to non-binaries.
Quite simply because it implies that non-binaries are somewhere in between.

I look at it more similar to a color spectrum, the opposite of red is in the middle, not the end, and the other end is violet which is part red. The color spectrum really is essentially trinary rather than binary, and many, many unique combinations can be made from various mixtures of three simple colors. I'm not saying gender is exactly like this either, but there are many, many different combinations of various attributes. Could there maybe be a third primary gender?

We do live in a binary society, unfortunately, and it is hard for many, including myself to conceptualize something other than man, woman, or in between. Right now, I see myself as in between, but I'm not transitioning to be a woman. I thought I was when I first joined here, but I don't think I'm totally a woman now that I explored it. I personally am still trying to find a way to fully conceptualize and accept what I am.

I get that. Society is dominated by binary thinking.
But that doesn't mean it's right or that's all there is to it.
I know how hard it is to conceptualize a different way of thinking about gender.
I have a hard time with binary. Because I never lived it, only in it.
But we have these discussions just for that reason.
Things are changing, people are looking at it in different ways.
A third gender isn't an idea. It's here, its recognized. All around the world.
Seeing it as a color spectrum works if it works for you.
A lot of people are rethinking their views of gender.
We aren't having an identity crisis, but it is a topic that has been pushed to the front for many of us.
In light of societies wondering, asking, I think it's a pretty big issue.
We need to give them an answer, and that has many people thinking about gender identity.
It is hard to conceptualize it if binary is what you have always had in your life.
I've never had it, just had to live with societies views on it.
So it does come pretty natural to me, but even so, I have to ask myself the tough questions as well.
It is possible to take the concepts of gender to lengths that is has never really been given the chance to?
Facebook of all places gives 57 different options.
What if we could make it a non issue by capitalizing on the ideas of limitless genders?
That would in effect, push gender on to a back burner or farther in societies thinking.
Cis, Trans, everyone would be on a more equal footing.
I see it as being possible. It would take care of so many things wrong with society in general right there.
I do agree that it can be a hard thing to conceive, a world with more than the standard binary, but that standard is already in question.
What's the answer? It's a tough question for all of us.
Ativan

Part of why I like thinking of it as similar to a color spectrum as there are limitless possibilities. Teal is different from turquoise and different from aqua, though they are all somewhat similar. There are also some possibilities that we as human's can't conceptualize. We do not know what infrared looks like to those animals that can see it, let alone what a mix of infrared and yellow might look like or what infrared mixed with ultraviolet might look like. That doesn't mean they don't exist, it is just beyond our comprehension. Some people are red/green colorblind and can't tell the difference between red and green. We live in a world that almost everyone is the equivalent to red/green colorblind and they cannot see the subtleties which are very important to us, but they just see us as gray. I take a dim view on educating the masses, it's just beyond their comprehension, I'm not sure they can be educated beyond something similar to the red light is the one on top.

I get you Emily, I can relate totally having experienced the same. It's Ok though... :)

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on May 06, 2014, 09:01:52 AM
increased awareness coupled with inner calm, yet balancing on the edge of daring and kinda playfull challenging...

I often refer to this as dancing on the edge, just a way of saying it because that's how I feel it.
Just as walking on the top rail of a wooden fence is.
Balancing on the edge of daring...
The Edge
There Is No Honest Way To Explaining It,
Because The Only People Who Really Know Where It Is,
Are the Ones Who Have Gone Over.
~Hunter S, Thompson~
Even in times of playfulness, being daring has a lot to be said for it.
Life begins at the edge of your comfort zone.
It takes self reflection when you get to it.
That moment when decide you are going to step over it.
Ativan

So it's not in-between, but it's a bit of both.  It's also none of either.
Like on the color spectrum, Androgyny is to Indigo.  Ignored by most. (Why can't you just be purple or blue?)

I weld... very grunty masculine, but my toenails are painted, crown hair is long and the rest of my body hairless.
On most days, I want to be pretty, or at least NOT the horse-faced version of Lurch from the Addam's Family I used to see.

It also seems to be the way-station for folks on the way to transition.  A place to rest.
For me, it's most likely the closest I wlll get.

Quote from: JustEmily on May 06, 2014, 09:52:21 AM

It also seems to be the way-station for folks on the way to transition.  A place to rest.
For me, it's most likely the closest I wlll get.

You are in such good company here, we can all relate on some level!

There are binary people in transition who find themselves in a physical realm that is often reflected in their thinking about what non-binary must be like and try to equate their experience into that of non-binaries.
It's not. It's not a way station or a version of binary.
It's different. To be non-binary and have binary people equate their experiences into their definition is wrong.
They are still binary, regardless.
Is there a special place in transition, that line, that path, that you suddenly are non-binary and then as you move further in your transition you suddenly become binary once more?
To appropriate non-binary into their experience is possible, but then they wouldn't be binary any longer.
I refuse to think of myself as some stage of binary experience.
I simply expect the same in return.
I don't try to take a piece out of their transition and try to tell them they are now non-binary.
"Hey you transitioning Binaries, guess what, you're nothing more than the far ends of being non-binary and you really don't exist"
It sounds completely wrong to say such a thing because it isn't true.
Respect for ourselves as non-binary is important to finding ourselves.
You can't compare apples and oranges, yet they do fall under the category of fruit or even food.
But to say that non-binaries are the apples that are in the middle of the transition of an orange as it grows to completeness is ridiculous.
We do have the abilities to find that we are different than what we are led to believe.
We still retain the ability to change, and if that means you identify as binary or non-binary is an actual occurrence.
There is that blurred line between the definitions. Yet non-binary is not a way station. It is not in between anything.
It stands on it's own as a gender and is well recognized as such in many parts of the world.
If you're binary, you will perceive that way station feeling of being in between.
But don't take away from non-binaries, who they are. Just because you feel that way, doesn't come close to being a non-binary.
You're just there at the way station of transition that transsexuals sometimes find themselves at.
If you indeed find that is where you are, get up and walk outside and experience being non-binary, because you are.
Forget about what you have always been told about who you are.
The definition of non-binary from the standpoint and view of binaries doesn't begin to define non-binary.
*Rant over....

Color wheels are just fine as a way of expressing non-binary.
The colors of a rainbow works for the spectrum of transition that transsexuals use to gauge their transition.
If you like the color 'circle' of different shades, think of non-binary as not two dimensional, but rather look at that circle as a sphere, if even just for the fun of it.
Non-binary is a gender separate from binary. To understand it means thinking or visualizing it in many abstract ways.
Yet when it comes right down to it, we all, everyone, have more in common in regards to gender than we do that's different.
Something to think about.
I take nothing away from anyone's idea of their own gender, yet I will not have mine taken away and used as something it is clearly not.
*Damn rant just won't go away....
Regardless, it benefits all of us to recognize who we are without taking anything away from anyone else.
Society has done enough of that as it is.
Ativan.

I don't over think about how some prefer to think of their own place in the overall scheme of things because it's counter productive for them and for me. If someone feels one way about themselves and we think otherwise and preach at them about it then we wind up stepping on other people's toes. I'd much often rather agree and show empathy and compassion over correctness.

OK that was written in a hurry before having to go to an appointment I didn't want to go to.
The point is that non-binary is not a subset of binary.
It doesn't come from there, even though some of the traits of mid transition are very similar.
There are lots of things in life that appear on the surface to be one thing or another, but scratch that surface and you find a difference.
Do binary people talk about the non-binary phase of transition?
If they do, they are using the term wrong.
They could say it's a similar experience in some respects, but that doesn't qualify it as a part of transition.
There are people who set out with a full transition in mind, only to discover that non-binary is really more of who they are.
There are plenty of people who consider themselves to be non-binary, but once started on even low dose HRT, discover that they really do want to transition completely and that their thinking, their true identity is binary.
I read this all the time here. It's cool, not a problem. You are who you are.
That can also change as we age, people's views of themselves and the world around them change all the time.

Binary. Non-binary. Not Binary with a subset called non-binary. Non being the key word here.
Just like I said that binary isn't the farthest ends of the range of non-binary.
If non-binary is a subset of being binary, then it is binary. If binary is a subset of non-binary then it would be non-binary.
They are two different things. If you can see one but not the other, then you most likely are the one that you see.

Yes indeed there are some very similar things between the two. There are more things that are similar than different.
But that doesn't make one a part of the other.

You have been taught all of your life that there are male and there is female.
But that's not all that there is. Trying to force non-binary into a part of this male or female doesn't work if you are never one or the other.
Just because a period of time is spent as a mixture of male and female through a transition it is still binary in it's beginning and end.
And yes it doesn't always work out that way. Trying to find your identity in a world that is mostly cis is a hard thing to do.
Trying to find your non-binary identity under those same conditions and having to still deal with it from a trans binary point of view is even harder.
All trees have leaves, so they are all just the same thing. As they age, as they transition through their life, they turn into many different other trees.
We know this isn't true, yet most trees have so many things in common with the other trees.
So it is with binary and non-binary. Different kinds of genders.
Just because there are at times things that are similar and sometimes the same, doesn't make one a part of the other.

This is what I see here when new people come here, they are questioning their gender.
To say to them that they are just in a transitional phase when they aren't transitioning doesn't make sense.
And sometimes they explain themselves in ways that do indeed point them in that direction of binary.
One is not any better than the other, the value of each is equal for all practical purposes.
To me, trying to tell someone that they are just a small part of a much larger group devalues their experience, their value.
They come here and talk about being, feeling, thinking in terms of male and female because we are taught that is all there is.
They're not a dot on a line, not a bunch of dots on a line.
They don't ask about what it is to be born in a body that doesn't fit and should be the 'other' gender...
They ask about what it is to have these thoughts of themselves as having different traits, ones that don't fit the binary ideas.
I'm not going to tell them that they are just going through a phase that's a part of transitioning.
I'm going to tell them they are non-binary.
I'm going to tell them they are someone who is a part of another group of people who share this gender.
That this is a good place to be able to talk about themselves without having to be told they are just going through something.
Because they are not going through a transition, they are where they have always been and always will.
Non-binary isn't going to grow up and be binary. It's not that hard to understand if you are indeed non-binary.
Except for those who have recently realized they are different or have for some time and are now just asking about it.
I see people who come here and are confused about just what this means for them.
They already know that binary isn't a fit for them.
Non-binary is something different. There isn't a direct transition from one body to another to fit their identity.
They already have a sense of identity and wish to learn more about it.
To try and then fit them back into the binary thinking that we have all been taught is wrong.
No matter which way you look at it, binary is not the same as non-binary. Non-binary is not the same as binary.
It's identity, you are male? Female? No? Something else all together?
Lets try and fit female and male together and see what we come up with. It would still be binary because that's what you started with.
The identity of non-binary has similar traits of male and female, but they mean something different to us.
It's not a journey with a destination in mind, its simply a way of being, it doesn't have or need a destination.
It's about recognizing the identities we already have.
We most certainly can and do change things about ourselves by way of expression.
But we don't carry a need to transition to match our identities, but we can transition to express our identities.
That's not as subtle as it sounds. The emphasis isn't on transitioning, it's on identifying our identities.
There simply is enough of a difference in the way we view ourselves and the world to be given that recognition we ask for.
There are blurry lines, indeed there are lots of things that could be viewed as the same.
Except for our identities.
Ativan

Quote from: Shantel on May 06, 2014, 10:41:10 AM
You are in such good company here, we can all relate on some level!

Indeed. We can and do relate, talk about this and that.
The forest is a good place to relax and get away from the cis world.
It's unique in the way people think here. It's not your everyday kind of place.
It's fun, relaxed, informative and confusing all at the same time.

I'd much often rather agree and show empathy and compassion over correctness.
We even have Shan, the voice of reasonable to counter the drive-by opinionating from me.
There is always something for everyone here, regardless of who you are.
Thank you Shan for being here.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 06, 2014, 08:02:58 PM
Indeed. We can and do relate, talk about this and that.
The forest is a good place to relax and get away from the cis world.
It's unique in the way people think here. It's not your everyday kind of place.
It's fun, relaxed, informative and confusing all at the same time.

I'd much often rather agree and show empathy and compassion over correctness.
We even have Shan, the voice of reasonable to counter the drive-by opinionating from me.
There is always something for everyone here, regardless of who you are.
Thank you Shan for being here.
Ativan

And thank you Ativan, you are the essential spirit of this forum!

I guess I hit a nerve here.  Sorry.  I am not sure where I am, spectrum, binary, all that BS... all I know is that I am alone.

I was just trying to participate and offer what I see from where I am in relation to myself.

Quote from: JustEmily on May 06, 2014, 10:36:50 PM
I guess I hit a nerve here.  Sorry.  I am not sure where I am, spectrum, binary, all that BS... all I know is that I am alone.

I was just trying to participate and offer what I see from where I am in relation to myself.

You aren't all alone here. We all experience and express this in slightly different ways.

I consider myself genderfluid and that usually gets lumped in with non-binary, though it is something different. Although I most often feel like I'm between the binary genders, I sometimes wake up feeling very binary male and feel weird that I ever felt trans, and sometimes I wake up feeling very binary female and want SRS. I don't know if this is just a step towards that end. I don't really tend to be happy when I'm at either pole though, but don't know that it's possible for me to stay in the middle, and I don't think I can just be the non-binary type Ativan describes either, because I just can't conceptualize it. I can conceptualize various different mixes of masculine and feminine traits, but not something outside it, though I'm not denying it exists.

Quote from: JustEmily on May 06, 2014, 10:36:50 PM
I guess I hit a nerve here.  Sorry.  I am not sure where I am, spectrum, binary, all that BS... all I know is that I am alone.
I was just trying to participate and offer what I see from where I am in relation to myself.

You're not alone...
And you have nothing to be sorry for.
Participating and offering your ideas is what will help you in your quest to find yourself.
If you mean hitting a nerve because I used the word way-station in what I said, you didn't.
I borrowed the word, nothing more.
There are many different ways of looking at ones self, and if that's what your doing, then you're on the right track.
There isn't a black and white definition that defines non-binary and binary as a whole, while defining either at the same time.
That is the blurred area or line I refer to.
Many people come here to find out more about themselves and asking questions and offering ideas is key to people finding themselves when they have questions or aren't sure about just where they fit in.
You're not alone in that, not by any means.
Over the years, I've narrowed down the definitions about as far as they can be at this point.
Any more than defining non-binary as something separate, yet also allowing for that blurred line is about it.
But something that used to happen for most people was the answers to their questions of non-binary were coming from binary points of view.
This led to a kind of confusion that never really answers the question of just what non-binary is.
And it is a difficult question to answer because the language we use is binary based.
We have very few words that are non-binary and even those have to be defined themselves.
Every so often, I notice the conversations drifting into the same idea that non-binary comes from being in between something.
I am very opinionated about this. Once separated as best that it can be, it leads to better defined answers to the question of 'am I non-binary?'.
There was a time not very long ago that non-binary was considered an imaginary thing.
The common answer was that it was simply a phase or being stuck somewhere along that line of transition.
Right back to it being defined as something binary by always using that line, spectrum, whatever to explain it.
It was an answer, but it never really answered the question.
Non-binary wasn't even really used, there wasn't a ready answer to just what that could be.
I was lucky enough to find a good gender psychologist around 4+ yrs ago who tried to define it to me.
I spoke with him at length about what non-binary meant, an hour a month that often went way into overtime.
But the conversations always became more defined as we discussed this each month.
It took me some time to be able to conceive just what he meant by it all.
Because the only way to talk about it was by using binary words.
The ideas and just how I express them are an offshoot of those conversations as well as listening to the opinions of many people here.
One of the things that my psychologist stressed was to find my own way of explaining myself... to myself.
This in turn meant having to do away with the notion that non-binary was simply a form of binary.
That was the bulk of the conversations as I remember them, the thing that stood out the most.
There has to be a better way to define non-binary. But there isn't words that do this, just concepts.
When I read things that people write here about defining their selves in a way that settles for the binary version of non-binaries, I comment on it if it seems to be rolling back to those days of it being simply a subset or being stuck in some fashion along that line of transition.
If you are somewhere on that line and firmly believe that, it's just fine. It is what it is.
But it's not non-binary.
If you're questioning that idea that feeling of being stuck there, you're probably non-binary and there isn't an easy way to talk about it because of our restrictions with language.
I bring the ideas as best that I can describe them, which there can be many ways to do just that, to describe the non-binary gender.
I'm opinionated in a way that can be taken as over the top, but it is simply that I am adamant about non-binary being recognized as a gender.
In the past, this led to some very heated arguments for some time.
But as things have turned out, the discussions along with many people who are indeed binary and those who through discussion realized they are non-binary and even some who grabbed onto the idea of being non-binary but then discovered that they are indeed binary have been ongoing.
My opinions of just what defines non-binary take on different ideas and expand on them to better be able to define non-binary.
It means having to use a variety of concepts that have their strong points as well as weak ones.
But I always try to keep the idea that non-binary is different than binary.
To be one or the other makes no difference to me. Most of my friends are binary. Some understand me, others don't.

I took no offence at the term way-station, it is legitimate if that is truly where you are.
If it is, I'm happy for you. If by that you mean you're non-binary, then I'm happy for you too.
I simply saw it and once again used a term like that to better define the role that the transition spectrum really doesn't play into the defines of being non-binary.
You didn't hit a nerve, you opened up an opportunity to try and better define non-binary.
There are a lot of people who are binary and quite a few of them come here and talk and ask about this stage of transition.
For them, the similarities do seem to be the same as the non-binary experience.
Which is just fine, it's a point of view and I understand it.
But when the terminology used starts to push that it is what non-binary is, I have to say something about it.
There is a difference. If you are non-binary, you can feel it, understand it, and yet not be able to express it.
If you are binary, it never hurts to help define it so they to can move on with being binary in the ways that they choose to.
If you are non-binary, it's the same. To better define it by way of concepts, you can better understand and move on to choose your own path.
But to fail to find yourself and choose a path that isn't you, it makes life more difficult for anyone.
I spent a lifetime trying to figure this out, when the idea of non-binary really wasn't defined as something different by way of gender.

By trying to keep the terms and phrases sometimes used that are easily confused and define non-binary as an in between of binary, my comments are pretty much as direct as I can make them and they do come off as being militant in their own way.
It's simply a more direct way and as to the point as I can make it, that non-binary is a gender, not a between thing.
It stands on its own, even when forced to use binary language to define it.
I'm not offended and hitting a nerve does happen, but my comments are not a scolding for that, they are an opportunity to once again define non-binary for what it is.

You are participating and doing very well in what you have to say or ask.
To not be sure of just where you are at this time is perfectly normal.
There is a very blurred line from binary to non-binary and there are people who cross it and those who are in it.
All legitimate, you define yourself, that's what these topics are for.
For you to define yourself, not to be defined by anyone else, certainly not by me.
I offer concepts to legitimize the non-binary gender. If they fit, so be it. If not, so be it.
You're never alone in this, this section of the forum always has people who come and go, hang around, whatever.
Binary and non-binary hang around here asking questions and offering opinions, just trying to help those who have questions.
The opinions vary depending on who you talk to.
While many people speculate, I try to bring a better more legitimate way of presenting non-binary as a gender.
But you are not alone here, not by any means.
Don't let my redundant opinionating about being non-binary offend you, my soapbox gets kicked out from under my rants all the time.
I have an understanding, that has a need to be expressed.
When I'm up to it, if I see an opportunity to comment about it, I take it.
It is never ever meant to offend anyone or their personal opinions, but more to take away the concept that non-binary is somehow a part of the binary experience.
It is I who apologizes if I offended you in any way, it wasn't intentional.
My intent is only to make sure the idea, concept, the reality that is, that non-binary stands on it's own as a gender.

We are all equals here. Those who are questioning are just as much a part of the conversations as anyone else is.
People like me, I throw stuff out there for others to grab on to if it fits them, if it suites them.
It probably is antagonistic in itself, but it is nothing more than something to discuss, an opportunity to ask more questions and should never be taken as the last word.
Mostly because I never seem to run out of them. My being opinionated is just that, opinionated.
It makes me no better than anyone else here and I am in awe at quite a bit of what people have to say.
My opinions come from what I have had in discussions outside of this forum as well as what the people who have something to say here.
Shan knows how to kick that soapbox out from underneath me and does so when I do get out of hand.
It's a way to keep me grounded and it happens as a way of telling anyone here, you are not alone, ever.
There are more questions than there are answers for all of us.
We're all searching for our identities. It's an on going process that no one is ever alone in this.
Despite what I or anyone else has to say, we are simply looking for the same answers as everyone else is.
None of us should ever feel alone in this.
As non-binaries, we don't have a defined destination, but we sure as hell do have a journey, just the same.
We define this group as being in a forest with many paths that intersect in different ways.
There is always someone else walking these paths, another person or group right around the curve these paths take.
People come here because you are never alone when you are in this forest.
It's full of wondrous things to find, places to be.
You are not alone.
Ativan

Ativan

Mere words do not do justice to your contribution to this subject, to our community and to my life.  Thank you so much for sharing your journey, insights and understanding

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on May 07, 2014, 09:48:05 PM
Ativan

Mere words do not do justice to your contribution to this subject, to our community and to my life.  Thank you so much for sharing your journey, insights and understanding

Aisla

Ditto that!