Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello everyone! Since we seem to have so many ladies here jetting off to Seoul for voice surgery, I figured why not make a thread where we can discuss our outcomes.

I had my surgery with Dr. Kim in August of 2013, after stumbling upon Jenny's video on youtube. After finding her thread here I read through every single page since she was fantastic about keeping everybody updated on her experience. Not long after that I headed to Seoul to have my surgery.

Now that I am at 8 months post-op I want to share some of my long-term opinions on the surgery. But first of all, here's some info on my surgery:

Dr. Kim tied up roughly 1/3 of my vocal folds and resulted in the following increase:

Normal voice before: 110hz
Elevated voice before: 170hz

Normal voice after: 185hz
Elevated voice after: 215hz

And here are some voice clips to show how my voice has progressed since having the surgery.

Pre-op (110hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Mh8FiVvP6Z

Pre-op elevated (170hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s164D0mjwyFf (Note about this one, I was kind of nervous using my voice so in this recording I'm not doing anything with my resonance)

One month post (170hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s11doZOOoTAp

Two months post (173hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0w3k3uZIvsK

Six months post (176hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RFtXpcpKeL

Seven months post (175hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s1q0wj82CtXb

Eight months post (185hz): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Po0zNPVtZg


My thoughts:

I saw basically all of the pitch increase by about 3 months post-op, but my resonance continued to improve until recently. I'm really happy with how the resonance has changed, and it definitely is way better than I expected it would be. I'm mostly happy with the pitch, I sort of wish it was a little bit more in the feminine range (mine is closer to gender neutral than feminine) but I did see just about the average gain so I'm not complaining. I do wonder if I would have benefited from having 1/2 of my folds tied up though - I was told my starting pitch was about 125hz but after the surgery when I looked at the recording myself I noticed it was only 110hz pre-op. So really I needed a bit more than the average to have a voice in the feminine range. I do feel like a voice that's on the lower end fits me well, and I told myself going into this that I would rather end up with a voice too low than too high.

The only thing I am disappointed about is my higher range/singing voice. Unfortunately I seem to have lost a decent amount of my higher range. Well not entirely because I can still hit the notes but the quality of my voice when trying to do that is pretty awful. I don't know what could be the cause of it, but I'm thinking about maybe having a doctor (anyone know what kind?) that deals with that kind of stuff to have it checked out. I'd be curious if Jenny or Sarah or anybody else has noticed this as well.

So anyway, this is where I am now with my voice. I do look forward to seeing what it sounds like in the future, but I have a pretty good feeling I'm not really going to see any changes from here. I'm excited to hear from all the other post-op ladies here, I can't believe how many of us there are now!

Dear Abby,

Quote from: abbyt89 on April 06, 2014, 12:42:14 AM
The only thing I am disappointed about is my higher range/singing voice. Unfortunately I seem to have lost a decent amount of my higher range. Well not entirely because I can still hit the notes but the quality of my voice when trying to do that is pretty awful. I don't know what could be the cause of it, but I'm thinking about maybe having a doctor (anyone know what kind?) that deals with that kind of stuff to have it checked out.

you should go to an ENT specializing in voice. They're also called phoniatrists. In larger cities that have a theatre and/or opera house, you should be able to find at least one.

As I'm singing myself, and headed for Yeson in two weeks, I'd be interested in knowing what range you're referring to in which your voice quality has deteriorated because of the surgery. Is it the extreme top end? Jenny reported in one post, maybe 3 months post-surgically, that she had to use a different approach for hitting the top notes (I think she called it "squeaky voice" initially). Maybe she can give you a few pointers. Another alternative that I could envision is taking a few singing lessons from a woman teacher. That's fairly inexpensive (private singing lessons here go for about $35-50, I don't know how it is where you live) and should easily give you an idea what you could do to improve your singing voice. After all, you're relearning how to speak and sing on brand new equipment.

Regards,

Amy

Hi Abby,
Your final voice is totally awesome! just a couple of questions here

1-)there isnt any resonance modification in your pre-op elevated voice so it makes me curious, have you done any resonance work before your surgery? I am such a failure when it comes to resonance so it makes me wonder

2-)are you doing any resonance modification in your post op voice or is it just an effortless and natural voice as you have stated in the other thread

Dear Abby,

Quote from: abbyt89 on April 06, 2014, 09:56:20 AM
As of now my voice starts to crack at around G4.

Now that's a clue. That's the chest/head voice break carried over from your old voice. (This depends largely on windpipe length, not on vocal cord mass, so it hasn't changed a whole lot during surgery.) Do try and go higher than that in one of the following ways:

• softly,
• in a breathy voice,
• with a loose jaw,
• with lots of twang, as if you were imitating Mickey Mouse,

One of those should carry you higher than that. It's hard to believe that this should be your physical limit.

Greetings,

Amy

Note to anjaq: this appears to be just what you speculated could happen: the feeling of being locked into quite a narrow space between bottom end and the old break.

The mid-high range really had improved for me through 8-10months post op, but it seems to be leveling off for me.

Abby- I am seeing a voice specialized otolaryngologist tomorrow to see if vocal tremor might have anything to do with the upper range thing you're talking about. I do feel some of what I think you are describing, but maybe not to the same degree. I do feel that around 8 mo this I was having that feeling more than I am now- so you may still be healing.

I do notice that I don't have the upper range extension like that of an average cis female.. That is going to be the main thing I want this doctor to diagnose.. So I will have more info tomorrow, and I'll be sure to post back here with it :) I am also going to have her confirm the vocal tremor and (if it's a positive) inquire about another botox injection. I am now approaching 12 months post op

I feel like such a stalker but I am really interested. 18 days post op now and haven't said a word. I'm starting to get anxious about what my voice will sound like.

Quote from: AmyBerlin on April 07, 2014, 12:47:29 AM
Dear Abby,

Now that's a clue. That's the chest/head voice break carried over from your old voice. (This depends largely on windpipe length, not on vocal cord mass, so it hasn't changed a whole lot during surgery.) Do try and go higher than that in one of the following ways:

• softly,
• in a breathy voice,
• with a loose jaw,
• with lots of twang, as if you were imitating Mickey Mouse,

One of those should carry you higher than that. It's hard to believe that this should be your physical limit.

Greetings,

Amy

Note to anjaq: this appears to be just what you speculated could happen: the feeling of being locked into quite a narrow space between bottom end and the old break.

Amy,

Wow, just those few tips helped me a lot! It seems  I can reach about a D5 before starting to really crack but that's only when I'm being really breathy.

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 07, 2014, 01:20:38 AM
The mid-high range really had improved for me through 8-10months post op, but it seems to be leveling off for me.

Abby- I am seeing a voice specialized otolaryngologist tomorrow to see if vocal tremor might have anything to do with the upper range thing you're talking about. I do feel some of what I think you are describing, but maybe not to the same degree. I do feel that around 8 mo this I was having that feeling more than I am now- so you may still be healing.

I do notice that I don't have the upper range extension like that of an average cis female.. That is going to be the main thing I want this doctor to diagnose.. So I will have more info tomorrow, and I'll be sure to post back here with it :) I am also going to have her confirm the vocal tremor and (if it's a positive) inquire about another botox injection. I am now approaching 12 months post op

Oh wow I am totally interested in hearing what they have to say! Keep us updated. I noticed I don't have the upper range of a cis woman either but I never had close to one before so it wasn't something I expected to improve from the surgery.

Quote from: Boca.Lisa on April 07, 2014, 05:56:20 AM
I feel like such a stalker but I am really interested. 18 days post op now and haven't said a word. I'm starting to get anxious about what my voice will sound like.

You still haven't said a word in 18 days? That's impressive but also I think a bit unnecessary. Were you instructed to wait that long or are you just doing it in hopes that it will allow the voice to heal better? I would double check with Dr. Kim because I think at some point your vocal folds will need to be exercised a bit.

Hi Abby,

I thought Dr. Kim and Jessie both said that while I could say 1 or 2 words after the week, that the less I said the better. I also had botox and it seems that most of the people who have tried talking within the first 30 days struggled. So, I havent spoken.

I must say, I am dying to hear my voice but dont want to damage anything and im a bit worried i'll be disappointed.

Lisa

Oh that's right, I totally forgot about the botox thing sorry!

As for your voice, please try not to worry about it, although it's easier said than done.

One thing to keep in mind though is to try not to be disappointed about how the voice is right away. It takes a long time to heal and I don't think I was truly happy with my voice until about 6 months post op.

Btw here is a recent update of me doing the rainbow passage. I've added the before video too so you can compare it to my original voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-0OwnV8Rk

Dear Abby,

Quote from: abbyt89 on April 07, 2014, 02:13:26 PM
Wow, just those few tips helped me a lot! It seems  I can reach about a D5 before starting to really crack but that's only when I'm being really breathy.

good to hear, glad I could help! Just keep practicing that range a bit at a time until it settles and until you've built the "muscle memory" and coordination to be able to hit these notes at volume and without additional breath. It takes a little experimentation, but it shouldn't ever feel unpleasant. I'm sure you can make it.

Amy

Quote from: Boca.Lisa on April 07, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
Hi Abby,

I thought Dr. Kim and Jessie both said that while I could say 1 or 2 words after the week, that the less I said the better. I also had botox and it seems that most of the people who have tried talking within the first 30 days struggled. So, I havent spoken.

I must say, I am dying to hear my voice but dont want to damage anything and im a bit worried i'll be disappointed.

Lisa

You're probably saving yourself a lot of healing time, I'd say keep it up until the month mark if you can :)

The amount of healing and adjustment that has to take place is kind of nuts. Here is my comparison from 1 week to 11 months of recovery:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNBkc23l.jpg&hash=03db5111be3c01f4b8aac00c0932f8624ba635a2)

Quote from: abbyt89 on April 07, 2014, 02:13:26 PM
Oh wow I am totally interested in hearing what they have to say! Keep us updated. I noticed I don't have the upper range of a cis woman either but I never had close to one before so it wasn't something I expected to improve from the surgery.

She said I do NOT have a vocal tremor, and that likely the upper range difference to cis is likely because the muscle groups in my voicebox are built for bigger vocal cords. So there you have it :) I have a feeling that upper range will continue to improve slightly as years go by, but seeing how low my voice was pre-op I'm not at all unsatisfied. I've managed to go from C5 to ~G5 on the high end which is noteworthy.

Quote from: AmyBerlin on April 07, 2014, 12:47:29 AM
Note to anjaq: this appears to be just what you speculated could happen: the feeling of being locked into quite a narrow space between bottom end and the old break.

Yes it totally sounds like that. It can cause a monotonous voice a bit as the higher parts are locked out. I think what ma yhelp is to try and go a lot higher to go beyond that break. Also that lip flutter exercise was what really helped me to get over that break. Glissando (Sirens) with lip flutter. I would be curious thouch, Abby, if you could go a lot higher than that point before surgery - could you speak or sing in the head voice(which is basically what this is)? Keep us posted about you progess about this. I think you should be able to go quite a bit higher than that if ou manage to turn on the head voice. A G4 is not very high - I think you should probably be able to go at least up to C5 or D5. This is well within the normal range even for lower voices, right? I presently can squeeze out a G5 ;) - thats not needed though. But I would hate to losse a big chunk of that range.

Just wanted to add after listening to all the recordings - the most striking difference I see is in the absence of the low overtones (or undertones?) that are accompanying the speech. The voice is somehow clearer, lighter and that makes it much more feminine even if the pitch in the pre-op elevated state is the same as in many of the post op recordings.

Quote from: anjaq on April 17, 2014, 06:10:39 AM
Just wanted to add after listening to all the recordings - the most striking difference I see is in the absence of the low overtones (or undertones?) that are accompanying the speech. The voice is somehow clearer, lighter and that makes it much more feminine even if the pitch in the pre-op elevated state is the same as in many of the post op recordings.

After seeing an otolaryngologist here in LA, she speculated this was due to the gap present near the commissure when phonating lower tones. She said it was quite possibly intentional on Dr. Kim's part and probably feminizes the voice overall. The tradeoff is you sacrifice some of the "brightness" of the voice at lower tones... but as you pointed out in your comment... who really cares? That's the part we are hoping to get rid of ;)

Hmm - it may indeed be so that this is an effect. If that is the same with Abby as with you. Just a picture from a ENT with his camera will clarify that :P - I must say when I had that gap it was s - I had less of these lower undertones, so really it is a possibility, but my phoniater and speech therapist told me it is not that good to have it and we are training to get rid of it actually and it is better for the voice as it strains less easily. Dr Kim also wrote me that I need to get rid of that gap before I should consider surgery with him as it would hinder the success of the surgery, possibly enough to have a dissatisfactory result. So I am not sure it is intentional... I think the low undertones simply disappear as the vocal chords are shorter.

That's an incredible difference from before and after.

Congrats! :)

Hi Abby,

I've read of your past threads and this one was an especially good one showing the changes to your voice over the months...really am blown away by your improvement..it's amazing how initially the first recordings done relatively soon after the procedure sound amazing..until you hear your more recent ones and they get better still. Hope I get the same improvement when I undergo the surgery in mid-June. I am a little concerned about what you say about your upper range post-op though...I love to sing and I'd come to the conclusion that given enough healing time, the power in our voices when in the upper range will return..and of course give us some extra upper range too that we couldn't hit before. Maybe in another couple of months, you'll be in a better position to be able to comment on this in your case. Also saw your recent video showing off your FFS and voice surgery and you couldn't look happier...so happy for you!

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 17, 2014, 12:51:00 PM
After seeing an otolaryngologist here in LA, she speculated this was due to the gap present near the commissure when phonating lower tones. She said it was quite possibly intentional on Dr. Kim's part and probably feminizes the voice overall. The tradeoff is you sacrifice some of the "brightness" of the voice at lower tones... but as you pointed out in your comment... who really cares? That's the part we are hoping to get rid of ;)

Hi Jenny,

If you get a moment, could you elaborate on this statement you made? I don't quite understand it but seems quite interesting!

Thanks,

Gigi

Quote from: Gigi_J on April 22, 2014, 08:15:05 AM
Hi Jenny,

If you get a moment, could you elaborate on this statement you made? I don't quite understand it but seems quite interesting!

Thanks,

Gigi

Basically my vocal cords have a gap near where they come together as I try to make a low note. She thought this contributed to the softness of my voice no matter what frequency I was currently speaking at.

My voice used to have quite a bite to its sound. Now it is very soft/round and quite the opposite.

Hopefully that helps to explain :)

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 23, 2014, 12:56:08 AM
Basically my vocal cords have a gap near where they come together as I try to make a low note. She thought this contributed to the softness of my voice no matter what frequency I was currently speaking at.

My voice used to have quite a bite to its sound. Now it is very soft/round and quite the opposite.

Hopefully that helps to explain :)

Ahhh, I feel dim now...makes total sense now, thanks Jenny! I'm the same btw...when I don't put any effort feminising my voice to soften it, my voice has quite a 'bite' too :D

Btw...quick question: Lately I've been trying to get my voice back into good shape in terms of (upper) range with regular singing exercises after considerable time without doing them and not singing very much. My range is getting better again top end...but do you think this is a benefit or do u think it's more important to have a good period of vocal rest prior to the procedure? I'll ask Jessie about her thoughts too but wondered what you gals thought.

Thanks,

Gigi

Quote from: Gigi_J on April 23, 2014, 07:19:00 AM
Ahhh, I feel dim now...makes total sense now, thanks Jenny! I'm the same btw...when I don't put any effort feminising my voice to soften it, my voice has quite a 'bite' too :D

Btw...quick question: Lately I've been trying to get my voice back into good shape in terms of (upper) range with regular singing exercises after considerable time without doing them and not singing very much. My range is getting better again top end...but do you think this is a benefit or do u think it's more important to have a good period of vocal rest prior to the procedure? I'll ask Jessie about her thoughts too but wondered what you gals thought.

Thanks,

Gigi

Definitely a smart idea to ask her, but I would guess as long as you are being gentle it cannot hurt :)

I think I actually damaged my vocal cords doing vocal exercises long ago and that is what developed my vocal tremor, so please do be careful! While doing those exercises your throat should not feel the slightest bit restrained. It should be totally relaxed and comfortable. I was doing quite the opposite for a number of years :/ Luckily though everything turned out okay because Dr. Kim is a magical wizard ;)

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 09, 2014, 02:44:46 AM
You're probably saving yourself a lot of healing time, I'd say keep it up until the month mark if you can :)

The amount of healing and adjustment that has to take place is kind of nuts. Here is my comparison from 1 week to 11 months of recovery:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNBkc23l.jpg&hash=03db5111be3c01f4b8aac00c0932f8624ba635a2)

She said I do NOT have a vocal tremor, and that likely the upper range difference to cis is likely because the muscle groups in my voicebox are built for bigger vocal cords. So there you have it :) I have a feeling that upper range will continue to improve slightly as years go by, but seeing how low my voice was pre-op I'm not at all unsatisfied. I've managed to go from C5 to ~G5 on the high end which is noteworthy.

Jenny, that question I asked Dr. Kim previously. He said that there are two reasons the extreme upper extension is hard to get: 1 is that the brain changes the muscle patterns (if I remembered correctly he told me there are 15 set of patterns) in singing while androgen level elevates during puberty in order to adapt to the enlarged cords. 2 is the difference in length of size of vocal tract. However I don't think the second one is "that" influential though...

I think abby's still in the recovering process, or you were really just too low pre-op... There were several clips I shared with Amy just several days before she had her surgery, Ima try posting it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4qoC_nuxN4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V3TafG8PfQ

These are the singing of a Hongkonese patient a fairly long time after the operation. Although it's kinda auto-tuned, Amy confirmed that she did have a good quality on those G5s in the first clip. There are more in her channels.

I want to point out though, when she WAS 3 months (already 3 months!!) her singing voice was really poor just as this clip indicates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxIOwMCldU

But I think she was a tenor pre-op at least.

Note that there are E6s at the very end of the first clip... that's the altissimo register I believe, haven't been totally whistle.

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 23, 2014, 07:26:17 AM
Definitely a smart idea to ask her, but I would guess as long as you are being gentle it cannot hurt :)

I think I actually damaged my vocal cords doing vocal exercises long ago and that is what developed my vocal tremor, so please do be careful! While doing those exercises your throat should not feel the slightest bit restrained. It should be totally relaxed and comfortable. I was doing quite the opposite for a number of years :/ Luckily though everything turned out okay because Dr. Kim is a magical wizard ;)

Jenny you're so experienced :D

There is one point I am really concerned about Dr. Kim's judgement on tremor: I have two friends (cis male) both judged by Dr. Kim to possess vocal tremor - however, none of them "actually" possess tremor (just as you, the ENT said you do NOT have tremor), at least the one whom I've known since junior high doesn't. Dr. Thomas told him that he just becomes nervous very easily and his habits make his vibrato too heavy. Another one I don't know that much, but another China doctor he met told him he doesn't have tremor either. The TRUE tremor is like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOpfzVFoPY according to them... and it seems like Dr. Kim judges all vibratos as tremor.

This I may need Amy's to answer: Did he make you sing some notes, and did you put vibratos in them?

Hi Alexia,

Quote from: alexiakk on May 14, 2014, 10:23:06 PM
Note that there are E6s at the very end of the first clip... that's the altissimo register I believe, haven't been totally whistle.

AFAIK (what little I do know), altissimo is just another word for whistle. Yes, and anything above around C6 (soprano high C) is altissimo/whistle, there's no other way to produce these notes. BTW, for the un-Yesonized male voice, altissimo starts about an octave below (it's the same effect, the vocal cords "zip up", although sound-wise, it cannot be aptly called "whistle").

Quote from: alexiakk on May 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
There is one point I am really concerned about Dr. Kim's judgement on tremor: I have two friends (cis male) both judged by Dr. Kim to possess vocal tremor - however, none of them "actually" possess tremor (just as you, the ENT said you do NOT have tremor) [...] and it seems like Dr. Kim judges all vibratos as tremor.

This is the impression I have as well. I suspected that even before I went to Korea, that's why I made a point of producing notes straight as an arrow during the examination.

Quote from: alexiakk on May 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
This I may need Amy's to answer: Did he make you sing some notes, and did you put vibratos in them?

Dead on. That he did. I was to sing various notes up the scale, but in the first note, a really low one, G2 maybe, I was too nervous to remember my no-vibrato strategy and I sang the note with vibrato. All others were dead straight. And precisely, Dr. Kim picked that note and said I'd have slight tremor in the extreme low range. Apparently it wasn't enough for him to suggest Botox though, but if it had been, I'd have started a discussion.

So it seems: notwithstanding his undoubted surgical prowess, take any tremor diagnosis by Dr. Kim with a grain of salt.

Just my 2¢,

Amy

Quote from: alexiakk on May 14, 2014, 10:19:46 PM
I want to point out though, when she WAS 3 months (already 3 months!!) her singing voice was really poor just as this clip indicates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxIOwMCldU
But I think she was a tenor pre-op at least.

That is amazingly bad in that video. I am astonished that Dr Kim puts it on youtube like that. Anything in the head voice seems broken and not working well at all for her. 3 Months is clearly too early, so it is not saying a lot but I wonder why even try to make a singing recording at just 3 months and then posting it online. Ah well - if anything, they should also put up a 6 and 12 month video. From all the results. I think it is a really annoying thing that there is a lack of long term result videos :(

Does being a Tenor or a Bass make such a difference in the upper range? My voice therapist said, I actually managed for some moments to reach a C6 (could not sing in it though, but who knows what some training would do) and I am definitely Bass or Bariton physiologically. I think it probably would be harder for me to sing in that range than for a Tenor though, but I have no clue about singing :P - The talking voice in the 3 month clip there is pretty ok though with a good change pre vs post op.

Alexia, Thank you for posting the Kelly C. singing video. I remember listening to her 3 month video on Yeson and feeling sad that I might never be able to sing again. So what a pleasant surprise to hear her latest video! Even allowing for autotune I think it sounds great.

With this and the clip Voodle posted yesterday of her wonderfully smooth voice it's really good to hear some more great long-term results.  It's eased my worries so much! :) The adrenaline has really kicked in today!

And thank you Amy for the tip about the vibrato. I'll try and sing the notes as straight as I can ;)
Also I've practicing doing my old 110Hz voice consistently and it's not easy - I just instinctively keep bringing it up. I want to make sure Dr Kim realises just how low my 'natural' voice is.

Quote from: anjaq on May 15, 2014, 05:17:56 AM
That is amazingly bad in that video. I am astonished that Dr Kim puts it on youtube like that. Anything in the head voice seems broken and not working well at all for her. 3 Months is clearly too early, so it is not saying a lot but I wonder why even try to make a singing recording at just 3 months and then posting it online. Ah well - if anything, they should also put up a 6 and 12 month video. From all the results. I think it is a really annoying thing that there is a lack of long term result videos :(

Does being a Tenor or a Bass make such a difference in the upper range? My voice therapist said, I actually managed for some moments to reach a C6 (could not sing in it though, but who knows what some training would do) and I am definitely Bass or Bariton physiologically. I think it probably would be harder for me to sing in that range than for a Tenor though, but I have no clue about singing :P - The talking voice in the 3 month clip there is pretty ok though with a good change pre vs post op.

Ikr!! The cis male friend I mentioned had his nodule surgery with Dr. Kim, and his range was very limited until 5 months post-op; he starts talking with no problem 3 weeks post-op though. And VFS is clearly a larger surgery, so I think 3 months is indeed too early. (This one I really have no idea, but I think SarahR may have good result  ???)

I think there are differences. Tenor/Bass unless you're like Amy who has learned and trained almost everything in technique, there are differences in habits and tessitura. If your tessitura was originally low (I heard this is the main difference between contra-alto and tenor?), I can't imagine you sing the higher counterpart post-op.

I am not really sure whether the effect of this surgery is like the "shift" of range to upper part? If it is, then the bass/tenor thing I mentioned may have some ideas... Most countertenors/tenors are comfortable with using their upper part of voice and basses use their lower part of voice, so post-op I suspect this also contributes to something.

It's like, contra-alto transman may adapt to their voice change easier than soprano transman?

Wow, this is really interesting. I've heard before about voice feminization surgery, but at the time, they didn't really speak very well about the surgery. For all I knew, they said that the voice effect was like Mickey Mouse, unnatural and annoying sound, and suposedly it was a VERY dangerous surgery that made me get scared and don't even think about it.

But I've been looking around and this seems to have good results. So... Is it really as risky and dangerous as I heard it was?

Hey Meria. They still usually say that. My ENT was saying I should not do this as I WILL get hoarse and loose volume and loose some at the low and upper end. My voice therapist was concerned as well, saying she had a patient who had a Mickey Mouse voice and needed to train to lower it afterwards plus another one that became hoarse. Another voice therapist said that one can never scream or yell afterwards and needs a whistle to gain attention. Horror Stories. I spoke to 3 people who did this surgery in Germany. I was not impressed. They DID actually sound hoarse or strained - two had a glottoplasty like Dr kim does and two a CTA. Sadly all of them smoked or talked within the healing period, so they are not representative. I never heard a good result of CTA, but it seems Dr Kim does something different from all of them as I have not yet heard anyone sound hoarse or strained. The worst case I have seen up to now was some cases where the change was not as pronounced as hoped for. So it seems that finally there is a way that this actually can work, although most people still remember all the bad results of the past decades.

Hi Everyone,

I'm now just over 2 months post op. I'm posting this here hoping someone can tell me if this is normal.

I've started my vocal exercises but am finding them difficult. I cannot hit all the notes and really have no upper range any more. When doing the candle blowing or lip trills from middle C, I cant raise my voice more than 6 notes and am unable to reach a B (or Ti on Do-Rey-Mi scale)

Overall my pitch has not changed much from before surgery and I'm a little disappointed in the outcome. If I speak from my chest, my voice is not good. When I pull it into my head it's better but not what I had hoped for. I don't want to get discouraged as I know I might hear some additional change in the future.

Is this common? Anyone else experience this?

Quote from: Boca.Lisa on May 25, 2014, 09:16:08 AM
Hi Everyone,

I'm now just over 2 months post op. I'm posting this here hoping someone can tell me if this is normal.

I've started my vocal exercises but am finding them difficult. I cannot hit all the notes and really have no upper range any more. When doing the candle blowing or lip trills from middle C, I cant raise my voice more than 6 notes and am unable to reach a B (or Ti on Do-Rey-Mi scale)

Overall my pitch has not changed much from before surgery and I'm a little disappointed in the outcome. If I speak from my chest, my voice is not good. When I pull it into my head it's better but not what I had hoped for. I don't want to get discouraged as I know I might hear some additional change in the future.

Is this common? Anyone else experience this?

Hi Lisa, I don't know if this is any help but have you checked your range on Jenny's progress graph :

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 15, 2014, 02:32:31 PM
Here is a graph that will maybe ease your mind.

This shows (to the best of my memory) how my range changed from pre op through the first 7 months

The red squares are an approximation of my fundamental frequency in normal speech. The blue rectangles show my minimum/maximum range. Obviously when I was where you are now so early in recovery, I wasn't actually testing my range to the fullest extent. This is where it seemed to be though.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFGBbzlG.png&hash=a1808baeeda0f4e3658e9c7267e76313aedc8906)

If you're at 8 weeks it look like your highest note will be F4 or G4. Just my 2 cents. Hope things keep improving.  :)

I guess you cannot really take Jennys graph 1:1 as every voice is different. But it seems the trend is that there is still a lot room for improvement at week 8. what was your range before and what is it now? Have you checked the pre and post op fundamental frequency as well as the lowest-you-can-do tone? sometimes we jus think it is the same but it is not. Did your voice quality change (less deep undertones), did you compare your relaxed - nontrained voice with your present relaxed voice or did you compare your pre and post trained voice? In the latter case, maybe you feel that it comes more natural  and easier now even if it is the same pitch?

Actually I am a bit amazed that Jenny shows in that graph that her highest pre op note was a B4 only. I am at A5 if I push it a bit now, pre-op but the lower end is similar. But I have been training a lot, so maybe I just have reached the same status in the upper range as Jenny did post op with the exercises. But it is hard to hit anything up there, I imagine with VFS it may be easier...;)

Dear Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on May 25, 2014, 06:02:10 PM
Actually I am a bit amazed that Jenny shows in that graph that her highest pre op note was a B4 only. I am at A5 if I push it a bit now, pre-op but the lower end is similar. But I have been training a lot, so maybe I just have reached the same status in the upper range as Jenny did post op with the exercises. But it is hard to hit anything up there, I imagine with VFS it may be easier...;)

Actually, B4 as highest frequency is pretty common for male larynges (pl. of larynx?) whose owners (male or female) haven't found whistle register, which the male voice needs to hit pitches higher than about C5. The female whistle register starts about an octave higher.

Amy

Ah ok. Makes sense. I think I feel another switch similar to the one from chest to head voice somewhere in the range above 500 Hz, so I guess I am using whistling then to go up to that upper range. Thats why it is not really useable for anything, I guess.

I'm posting this here, too, since I'm a Kim prospect and it has to do with the vocal break matter, which may interest others:

Dr. Kim notes my reading voice pattern to be moderately unstable: pitch instability, and a breathy voice with too much air escaping. Apparently it's the act of defying the way the voice wants to sound on its own that induces voice tremor - that going from chest voice to falsetto makes the voice break more pronounced. They assume the voice break will continue after VFS, but that with botox + if I adapt to my new vocal folds, the voice break is believed to improve.

This really seems to support the notion that it's our voice box musculature being used to working with thick, long vocal folds which causes tremor, and that it's not necessarily something innate or permanent. If this is the case, I feel a lot better about having VFS done, as the vocal break matter is one of the last things I've been concerned about. Truth be told, I actually 'can' cross that break, but because my voice is so breathy, there's a super-fine line between clocking the break and using not enough air to induce vibration. And that's almost certainly due to my voice feminization techniques.

As for the simple presence of tremor, I can reflect that in my first year or two post-transition, I had a good friend (choral expert) who noted one of my strengths was perfectly steady, straight-tone singing. The tremor / instability Dr. Kim notes in my voice are consistent with what I've noticed myself in recent years especially.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Charlotte on May 15, 2014, 06:10:33 AM
And thank you Amy for the tip about the vibrato. I'll try and sing the notes as straight as I can ;)
Also I've practicing doing my old 110Hz voice consistently and it's not easy - I just instinctively keep bringing it up. I want to make sure Dr Kim realises just how low my 'natural' voice is.

The more I read about VFS at Yeson, the more confused I get! I have been controlling my voice for many years and I am in the female range in terms of pitch, although I think the quality of my voice doesn't sound totally female (though no-one ever notices). Do I need to get that long ago male voice back to demonstrate to Dr Kim how it sounded originally so he'll adjust my pitch enough? Or do I use my routine day to day (controlled) voice? I don't want an under-correction.