Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The scene: Was wearing bootcut Deisel jeans, Frye boots and a white untucked CK button up jean shirt. I look similar to my avatar (just a little less fem), I'm kinda short, but I know I'm attractive presenting androgynously.

As confident as I was, I couldn't help but feel like I was some sort of sissy or something standing next to two taller and well dressed power players in suits. I felt awkward and their aura behind me was diminishing whatever self esteem I had. I felt like I wanted to slink away out of the line and go home and re-asses my manlihood. That I'm emasculating myself because I want to be pretty? I'm honestly not a total woman inside but more of a tomboy.

The problem is with my particular facial features, I present much much better as fem and feel I should lead myself along these strengths.

It's weird speaking as a guy who can still turn this ship back around. I'm only over a month on hormones.

Thoughts? Thanks for listening.

Perhaps it is just old socialization?

It could also just be a response to something that you perceive as powerful...culturally, when a man wears a suit and looks the part, he's seen as more powerful.

Quote from: birkin on April 12, 2014, 04:40:13 PM
Perhaps it is just old socialization?

It could also just be a response to something that you perceive as powerful...culturally, when a man wears a suit and looks the part, he's seen as more powerful.

No, because if I had shorter hair and was completely masculine I would feel like equals. I would know I'm presenting pretty darn alpha stylishly the way I was dressed. But the fem of my hair and going andro put a big question mark on that.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 04:37:00 PM
It's weird speaking as a guy who can still turn this ship back around. I'm only over a month on hormones.

If you didn't have a few doubts about making this massive a change, that in intself would be reason to be scared.

You need to be you.  If you need to turn the ship around that is your choice to make.

Me, I don't do suits.  Although I am considering a pretty black leather one with a slightly below the knee pencil skirt...


Erin

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 04:37:00 PM
The scene: Was wearing bootcut Deisel jeans, Frye boots and a white untucked CK button up jean shirt. I look similar to my avatar (just a little less fem), I'm kinda short, but I know I'm attractive presenting androgynously.

As confident as I was, I couldn't help but feel like I was some sort of sissy or something standing next to two taller and well dressed power players in suits. I felt awkward and their aura behind me was diminishing whatever self esteem I had. I felt like I wanted to slink away out of the line and go home and re-asses my manlihood. That I'm emasculating myself because I want to be pretty? I'm honestly not a total woman inside but more of a tomboy.

The problem is with my particular facial features, I present much much better as fem and feel I should lead myself along these strengths.

It's weird speaking as a guy who can still turn this ship back around. I'm only over a month on hormones.

Thoughts? Thanks for listening.

My BF wears Diesel jeans all the time. He has like five pairs with totally different stitching: green, yellow, orange, etc. He also has diesel shoes but says he's going back to a more dressay shoe. But, though he's extremely good looking and could get any girl he wanted, he doesn't look femme in the face even remotely. That would be a problem for me.

As far as what you felt, Birking could be right that it is some type of conditioning. I went to a club one time in OC Maryland with my best friend at the time and I never felt more tiny in my life. Every guy towered over me and so did the women. I was literally the smallest person there. Talk about emasculated.

But a tomboy is still a woman. No question. However, if you're feeling like this only a month on HRT and you're andro, what are you going to do when you start to really pass in a year and if your lucky, have unhidable breasts. And guys hit on you. So not only are they standing behind you, they're checking out your ass and whsipering about screwing you and how your mouth would feel so wet on their penis. And then they say I be that makes he vagina wet hearing this. I wonder if she's a squirter? Then, you won't have to worry since you won't be emasculated. You'll be a woman. An object. A set of tits. That happens to have an ass. Or vice versa. If you have my bad luck, they'll even give ya a little squeeze and tell you how beautiful you are. Okay, i loved that I wont lie lol except the touching. No touching. Unless you give me $50. Then one touch.

This will happen, maybe not exactly like this, but you'll be viewed as female in the world. So, ifthat doesn't appeal to you and you want to retain your masculine qualities, why not go the andro route annd not go all the way. There's nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 12, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
I have two questions for You to think about.

1. You said their presence affected You to the extent that You wanted to leave. Did You feel so because You felt that they might think that You were not up to some standards of masculinity? Or maybe You just felt so very much different from them and acutely knew that You can never be like them?

2. Would You want to be like them?

1. I felt like I was going to be looked at as being an "effeminate, sissy" guy or something which I'm totally not and don't present or act as such. Even no matter how attractive I am. That their power (maybe that male privilege thing) is above mine - man > andro, man > woman. Like that universal law of absolutes.

2. The thing is, I was like them (I run my own business) and have my fair amount of biz clothes to deal if I have to. But those where forced aside since 7 months of hair growth. lol.

Would I like to be them ... I don't want to wear a suit, I still want to present androgynously (as currently in my transition), but I want to be alpha (if you catch my meaning) in my own way. Where even alpha male suits know they can't intimidate me.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 05:00:58 PM
Would I like to be them ... I don't want to wear a suit, I still want to present androgynously (as currently in my transition), but I want to be alpha (if you catch my meaning) in my own way.

What do you mean by alpha? Like alpha female: the prettiest, coolest and most rad chick at the party...or...alpha male...in ur own way? Just wondering...

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 05:00:58 PM
I don't want to wear a suit, I still want to present androgynously (as currently in my transition), but I want to be alpha (if you catch my meaning) in my own way. Where even alpha male suits know they can't intimidate me.

What you are looking for is confidence.  If you are confident you can present male, andro, or female and not feel put down.

How many alpha male suits intimidate Hilary Clinton?

Pick you own way, and don't let what others think drive your decisions for you.

Just my $0.02...


Erin

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 12, 2014, 04:56:10 PM
My BF wears Diesel jeans all the time. He has like five pairs with totally different stitching: green, yellow, orange, etc. He also has diesel shoes but says he's going back to a more dressay shoe. But, though he's extremely good looking and could get any girl he wanted, he doesn't look femme in the face even remotely. That would be a problem for me.

As far as what you felt, Birking could be right that it is some type of conditioning. I went to a club one time in OC Maryland with my best friend at the time and I never felt more tiny in my life. Every guy towered over me and so did the women. I was literally the smallest person there. Talk about emasculated.

But a tomboy is still a woman. No question. However, if you're feeling like this only a month on HRT and you're andro, what are you going to do when you start to really pass in a year and if your lucky, have unhidable breasts. And guys hit on you. So not only are they standing behind you, they're checking out your ass and whsipering about screwing you and how your mouth would feel so wet on their penis. And then they say I be that makes he vagina wet hearing this. I wonder if she's a squirter? Then, you won't have to worry since you won't be emasculated. You'll be a woman. An object. A set of tits. That happens to have an ass. Or vice versa. If you have my bad luck, they'll even give ya a little squeeze and tell you how beautiful you are. Okay, i loved that I wont lie lol except the touching. No touching. Unless you give me $50. Then one touch.

This will happen, maybe not exactly like this, but you'll be viewed as female in the world. So, ifthat doesn't appeal to you and you want to retain your masculine qualities, why not go the andro route annd not go all the way. There's nothing wrong with that.

Is it possible to be beautiful and masculine at the same time? I guess you would have to have extremely unique features.

Perhaps like Colin Farrell.

Go about a minute into the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrT0_8gMZAw

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 12, 2014, 05:07:04 PM
What do you mean by alpha? Like alpha female: the prettiest, coolest and most rad chick at the party...or...alpha male...in ur own way? Just wondering...

Alpha androgony ... since I present as androgynous.

But I don't even know if "alpha androgyny" can exist because it's paradoxical.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 12, 2014, 05:15:46 PM
If You dont know if it exists - it is just about time to invent one :). If You cant win when playing by the rules - how about changing them? :)

BINGO!


Erin

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 12, 2014, 05:15:46 PM
If You dont know if it exists - it is just about time to invent one :). If You cant win when playing by the rules - how about changing them? :)

I believe not dressing and presenting more female than my physical passability merits is my one saving grace. Like, I am dressing appropriate to my-level and keeping my appearance from unwittingly asking to have peoples perceptions challenged and subsequent clocking (I like to say being "busted" lol)

I think this is vitally important in the trans world IMO.

I think ultimately I want to present andro with a dash of tomboy femininity. I need to find a way to elevate all of this to match my alpha-male inspired type of confidence. Bringing up my game so to say. Confidence is one thing, but appearing confident when presenting as a clown is another.

I get you Evelyn! Suits can be visually intimidating, professional businesses require them as cover for individual shortcomings and to make a statement about an air of professionalism and competence. That's why when some companies have a casual dress day, the employees suddenly seem more approachable, friendly and laid back. Next time you find yourself having those feelings just envision everyone in the room suddenly naked, I can assure you that those feelings will go away.

Yeah Shantel. Maybe I need to find an stylin androgonous power suit of my own.

That would certainly make me feel right in my new skin.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fauv1pf.jpg&hash=2c661183594fe2c7753aa00954befff3220f9ca4)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 06:28:15 PM
Yeah Shantel. Maybe I need to find an stylin androgonous power suit of my own.

That would certainly make me feel right in my new skin.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fauv1pf.jpg&hash=2c661183594fe2c7753aa00954befff3220f9ca4)

That is quite a fine suit to pick for an example!

(I read through the MTF boards looking for posts such as this as examples of the sort of man to avoid becoming, thank you for sharing and reminding us that what we project can be hurtful to others)

I'm not sure I follow...?

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 12, 2014, 05:14:32 PM
Alpha androgony ... since I present as androgynous.

But I don't even know if "alpha androgyny" can exist because it's paradoxical.

Allow me to wax philosophical: anything can exist and life itself is the defintion of paradox since we know we're here, but do we really? Now my brain hurts lol but, alpha andro can certainly exist. It can because you make it exist. Life isn't about luck, well it is kinda, but you can make your own luck just like you can make your own style, personality, etc. I can see what you mean by alpha androgyny. Rock it. Rock it like Shirley Manson.

http://youtu.be/LUkOtHd4Al4

God, I love her hair in this video...I used to have a faux hawk for years and years just like hers in 2002. My ex totally thought I was stealing her style...but she stole Shirley's style. We used to have a bowl named Shirley. We loved her. I kinda have hair like that except for the buzz cut on the one side except I'm dying it blond as soon as i get one session of laser, which is all I need. I need to call places and make a deal. I only want one session. Two tops.

But, see how she rocks androgyny. It can be done. In fact I would call her alpha andro. Know, if I could combine her hair, with Jean Seabrg's style and my personality, I'd be a aplha female. But, as of now, according to my BF's 50 year old roommate he hates (thank god...it's about time) I'm a pathetic, demure, "James says jump and I say how high" do anything girl. And yeah, I'm really demure IRL. I can;'t help it. It's who I am and I make no apologies. But, at least he says he loves how I am and would hate if I changed ant just because of the do anything aspect but because i can be such a pleasent happy person when I am not letting people dictate my emotions. Tangent...sorry

I have a slightly different take on this issue. The area I live in next to a university has quite a few nicely suited men and there is a starbucks , of course. I all ways freak out if one of those power  guys is standing near me . It's not because I feel I'm unequal , its because I get so turned on by a well dressed man in a great suit.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 12, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
Allow me to wax philosophical: anything can exist and life itself is the defintion of paradox since we know we're here, but do we really? Now my brain hurts lol but, alpha andro can certainly exist. It can because you make it exist. Life isn't about luck, well it is kinda, but you can make your own luck just like you can make your own style, personality, etc. I can see what you mean by alpha androgyny. Rock it. Rock it like Shirley Manson.

http://youtu.be/LUkOtHd4Al4

God, I love her hair in this video...I used to have a faux hawk for years and years just like hers in 2002. My ex totally thought I was stealing her style...but she stole Shirley's style. We used to have a bowl named Shirley. We loved her. I kinda have hair like that except for the buzz cut on the one side except I'm dying it blond as soon as i get one session of laser, which is all I need. I need to call places and make a deal. I only want one session. Two tops.

But, see how she rocks androgyny. It can be done. In fact I would call her alpha andro. Know, if I could combine her hair, with Jean Seabrg's style and my personality, I'd be a aplha female. But, as of now, according to my BF's 50 year old roommate he hates (thank god...it's about time) I'm a pathetic, demure, "James says jump and I say how high" do anything girl. And yeah, I'm really demure IRL. I can;'t help it. It's who I am and I make no apologies. But, at least he says he loves how I am and would hate if I changed ant just because of the do anything aspect but because i can be such a pleasent happy person when I am not letting people dictate my emotions. Tangent...sorry

I don't know I find she appears more tom-boy cis-woman'ish than a representation of androgyny. But I catch your drift and I do get the lyrics. I think androgonous persons will always show traits of their cis male or cis female birth origins. I've never seen a perfect crossover, except for perhaps andro model Andre.

I'd like to see some andro people rocking the andro power suit. It would certainly give me ideas as I tailor my own transition (and its extent thereof).

Quote from: stephaniec on April 12, 2014, 07:25:13 PM
I have a slightly different take on this issue. The area I live in next to a university has quite a few nicely suited men and there is a starbucks , of course. I all ways freak out if one of those power  guys is standing near me . It's not because I feel I'm unequal , its because I get so turned on by a well dressed man in a great suit.

Hehe. Welp, I guess I outed myself as not liking weenie.

Girl lover true and through. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2F27yd84k.jpg&hash=a24f1233a605fa72bcbc831f68671f15a15e3ec0)

Hi Evelyn,

I think it's a few things hitting you at once.
Anytime you make big change to your presentation then your confidence will naturally wane a little until you're comfortable with yourself.
I think there is an instinct to size up people you come across, and then your internal hierarchy put you down the tiers that society has constructed.

I'm presenting male, but it's still awkward and uncomfortable around a guys and trying to blend in on the macho thing.

And some people are just jerks who will try to intimidate and push you around if they perceive you as "weaker".

^^^ or inferior. I've had to up my confidence level since I wasn't tall and I got pretty good at it. I've learned all the womanizing "player" tricks in the book and how to fake everything. Never seeking validation from anyone - ever - and smooth talking and bantering women and just doing my thing. I pretended I was a shark swimming through schools of fish along with the other sharks.

Then I became a fish. lol. Or felt somehow, like one.

Guess I need to become a dolphin. :D

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 12, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
I have two questions for You to think about.

1. You said their presence affected You to the extent that You wanted to leave. Did You feel so because You felt that they might think that You were not up to some standards of masculinity? Or maybe You just felt so very much different from them and acutely knew that You can never be like them

Was thinking a little more on this. And I found a word I was looking for...

DEFERENCE
def·er·ence
[def-er-uhns]
noun
1. respectful submission or yielding to the judgment, opinion, will, etc., of another.

^^^ That's what it was. Exactly. I felt like because I was not entirely masculine, I was (internally) forced to feel and show deference to two male suits because that's just the natural pecking order of things. Deference to the possibility of their questioning what I am (like I had no right to question if they where thinking weird things about me). Or show deference if they opened a conversation with me and to keep my own alpha-male ego in check, because being alpha-male just isn't congruent with an outward andro-fem appearance. If I did express my ego, it would come off appearing as if I was retaliating to excuse what I am, making everything else all the more apparent. Deference in all things social - hence being emasculated.

Even as alpha female as Hillary Clinton is, she would have to feel deference when speaking to Ronald Reagan.

There is no escaping that men rule this world. If I choose to live in between the lines, then I have to acknowledge I'm letting up on my privileges bestowed naturally with masculinity.

Quote from: Greeneyedrebel on April 12, 2014, 06:31:34 PM
That is quite a fine suit to pick for an example!

(I read through the MTF boards looking for posts such as this as examples of the sort of man to avoid becoming, thank you for sharing and reminding us that what we project can be hurtful to others)

I'm still curious. Can you speak a little on what you mean by, "the sort of man to avoid becoming"? Was it the emasculated type? And what's "projected" that hurts others?

Quote1. I felt like I was going to be looked at as being an "effeminate, sissy" guy or something which I'm totally not and don't present or act as such. Even no matter how attractive I am. That their power (maybe that male privilege thing) is above mine - man > andro, man > woman. Like that universal law of absolutes.

2. The thing is, I was like them (I run my own business) and have my fair amount of biz clothes to deal if I have to. But those where forced aside since 7 months of hair growth. lol.

Would I like to be them ... I don't want to wear a suit, I still want to present androgynously (as currently in my transition), but I want to be alpha (if you catch my meaning) in my own way. Where even alpha male suits know they can't intimidate me.

Hi Evelyn!

Wow, there's alot in your post that resonates with myself, its uncanny! I'm sorry that you feel like that. And its tough asserting yourself as anything other than alpha male, relinquishing the male privilege also sucks.

I too have exactly the same issue when I am around a binary male environment, and especially macho men and power-dressing city boys. I hate the idea that I appear as a sissy or a stereotypical effeminate whimp, as:

A. I don't dress femininely to look like an effeminate gay male, I dress to look more like a female.
B: I'm also not feminine simply because I'm a push-over whimp who wants to be emasculated and has low self-esteem.
C:I hate it when people have this smug sense of absolute belief in their judgement about you. You gain personal power when you subvert expectations.

So I'm also very self-conscious when I'm aware that I may be seen as negatively as all of the above by alpha males and even alpha females. I tend to find myself exerting my masculinity as a sort of cloak. Part of it - such as using my deep voice - is genuinely enjoyable, but the posturing tends to be tiresome. I hate feeling emasculated, and sissy culture (forced feminisation, etc) makes me feel very uncomfortable. My non-binary femininity is not an expression of weakness, it is an expression of my own identity and that identity is my own personal power. However, I do regularly feel the need to bolster my masculinity to the world due to expectations, the fact that it currently makes it easier to get what I want and because I don't want to be percieved as weak. It does cause confusion sometimes, as I too wonder if I am causing my self more harm by emasculating myself through wanting to be feminine and increasingly female.

As for suits... well I love wearing suits, have since I was a kid, even on days off. I went off them completely though when I became more accepting of my identity, and also when I realised just how miserably male I was looking. Then after a long time, I suddenly realised I could potentially wear female suits. So I started wearing ones like these, too. And they are much fun to wear, greater style, elegant and yet still a powerful statement :)

http://oi59.tinypic.com/auv1pf.jpg (http://oi59.tinypic.com/auv1pf.jpg)

Hey Stella,
        I was thinking Evelyn could use your most personal take on this subject as you and I have both spoken about it so often privately, but you and she seem to be so much more affected by that dynamic than I, perhaps if I wasn't so impervious to their nuances I would notice it more often too, so glad to see you here!

Stella isn't it interesting to be in a situation where you can switch tracks like this yet still look good? I actually do like having this option, but I don't love it.

Long hair no matter how nice your style and face looks tends to look out of place with mens dress clothes.

But I can't do the women's pants suit thing either. The lines are too feminine and I'd be sending a very trans signal, so unisex style is the only way forward for me.

The key for me is a collared v-shape style opening so my straight collarbone length hair can drape around and frame my face.

As my face feminizes a little more from andro -> andro-feminine, I may be able to get away with classic womens point collar dress shirts from like banana republic. No frills and nothing too curvy, but it matches that level of "me".

Currently this is an ideal unisex outfit for me, minus the accessories of course. Maybe a thin charmed chain.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi59.tinypic.com%2Fm8o5co.jpg&hash=013d731e5e9af368a289260e341090d763926e77)

Being Alpha has nothing to do with how you look. It's a vibe, a mixture of self-confidence, assertiveness and social skills. You have it or you don't. One does not "want" to be Alpha, one simply realize that he/she is.

Also, much Internalized homophobia/misogyny.

Hmm I think getting used to this comes with self acceptance.  I went through a similar period, I work as a police officer and there are no shortage of alpha males around (who have become increasingly nice to look at)

I've done the whole alpha male thing but for all you know those guys had a pretty pair of panties on underneath those suits :)