Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey all,

So I'm having one of those mornings where you look in the mirror and want to cry at the reflection.  I'm picking apart all of my flaws and it's just driving me insane.  However, rather than simply sit here crying and wallowing in misery/self hatred, I kind of wanted to reach out and hopefully get some inspiration or hope.  Therefore, for those of you who have fully transitioned (whatever that may mean to you) did you first go through an andro stage?  A point in your transition where you where almost genderless and ambigious in your appearance? Did it remain well into your transition? Did you ever get out of that stage and achieve your goals to pass without any possible issues?  And how long did it take for you to get there on hrt?  And was there anything else that helped? 

I'm sorry.  I realize my threads have a common theme and probably have simple answers, but I think about this stuff everyday and rather than sit here and cry, I'd like to get some hope that will allow me to cope.  I have major dysphoria and body issues and can't take it at times.  Knowing these things are just a phase puts me in a better mind frame.  At least knowing this was true for others and hearing they also went through this can help me cope today.  Thanks. 

I have lived most of my life as an ugly duckling.  :(

Awkward transitioning is actually an improvement.  :-\

This phase lasted 2-3 months for me. But considering I transitioned in the late 20ies I got very lucky genetic wise.

I avoided it by going full time immediately. I have never made a better call in my life. I considered how I would feel being in the awkward stage and knew it would have been detrimental to my transition with second thoughts and such. Going full time right off the mark makes you immerse yourself in your new life and makes it where you don't see a lack of progress. It also occupies your mind and doesn't let it drift through self doubt. I have gotten so used to seeing the woman in the mirror that NOT to present causes problems for me. I used every tool in the arsenal (wigs, breast forms, etc.) to make my vision come to life instead of waiting for my body to catch up. As it does I can drop some of the trappings and still feel good about what I see in the mirror.  :)

I was in that stage for a few months. It was definitely hard somedays. I ended up going full time when I realized that I was being gendered a mix of male and female throughout the day. At that point I threw on a bra, tight fitting shirt, and some make up and haven't looked back.

I never was able to see myself as androgynous or female in the mirror, but I took my cue that it was time from strangers. Honestly, I still don't see it in the mirror most days and I pass 100% of the time. Well at least no one ever openly clocks me.

hmmm... body image and self-perception is really difficult though. Sometimes I still swear I look like a boy and people act like I'm crazy. I never noticed myself changing much though.

Yep... definitely went through it.

For about the first 10 months, I was being gendered nothing but male. It drove me INSANE. One day I started thinking that maybe I was starting to look reasonably female-ish in the mirror, and figured that maybe if I dressed more androgynously I might be able to squeeze a "she" out of someone on a fluke. I still didn't. People maybe started avoiding pronouns a bit, because they weren't as sure of what my gender was, but it still took another month and a half after that before I FINALLY got my first "she." And for the next three months after that, it was a constant mixture of male and female pronouns.

During this between stage, I was getting called "she" and "he" with nearly the same degree of certainty from various people. I was getting stared at in the men's room, but still wasn't passing consistently enough to use the women's room. And I was too scared to wear blatantly-female clothes because I was so afraid that people were going to look at me, and be one of the people who was gendering me male, and see me as a freak. And these fears weren't unfounded. The first time I wore a blatantly-female sweater in public without my wig on, an elderly gentleman came up to me, sneered, and said "if my kids dressed like that, I'd smack them." It took a LONG time, going through like 10 different presentations, and three months of wondering if I should go full-time or not, wanting to but being too scared because I still wasn't consistently seeing a girl in the mirror, before I finally started slowly emerging from the other side.

Finally what pushed me over the edge was getting fired from my job. I realized that whether I was ready or not, I couldn't put up with hiding anymore, and couldn't start yet another job still in hiding, still feeling like my true self was going unrecognized. So I went full-time. And you know what? I'm still kind of in that androgynous stage. I've crossed over from just pure androgynous to more feminine androgynous, but I'm still a long way from reaching the point where my gender is just incidental again. And it still bothers me. Every single morning I wake up and look in the mirror and see someone that is neither blatantly female nor blatantly male. And I have to put on my earrings, and blatantly-female clothes, in order to be able to see a girl. And yes, it really does bother me. I hate feeling like I'm wearing a mask, and feeling like I'm not really a girl yet, I'm just someone who dresses as one. But it reached a point where I just couldn't wait anymore, whether I was ready or not.

It does get better. It just takes a while, and you have to keep moving forward and trying new things if you really want to find a presentation that works.

And as horrible as this sounds, I really don't still believe that I'm passing most of the time. It's only because I keep going out there, and keep hearing female pronouns, that I believe it. So as much as it hurts when you don't pass, (trust me, I know,) the only way to know for sure is to keep going out there, and see how people treat you. That's really the key to getting through this, is to just try your best to live your life and not let fear keep you completely paralyzed.

Briefly - a couple months, and then I started being startled by male fail at the oddest times. But yes, in terms of hope, HRT worked wonders and I have no trouble whatsoever blending in as a woman now. :) I also think the andro phase was shortened for me by having done a lot of voice work pre-HRT; it's hard to judge since the majority of genderings took place after I opened my mouth, you know? Odds are at least some people took me for ambiguous until that moment when I talked for at least a few months longer. As others have said, it does also help to be dressed/presenting female, as scary and hard as that is at first; people add up all the cues and make a snap decision that way.

*hugs*

Yeah I am still in that in between androgynous phase when I go out in boy mode. It is weird because no one uses pronouns with me and I hear little kids ask is that a boy or a girl.  Once in a while I will get called lady, if I am with another girl in boy mode or miss, in boy mode. In my opinion I look androgynous even in girl mode, but if I wear highly gendered stuff clothes I can get put into one column or the other. The thing is girl clothes are more gender than male clothes so it is easier to look more blatantly female than male. It is weird though that I am still in this andro phase at over three years hrt. Maybe if I get ffs I will pass as a girl even in boy mode.

I had my "guyliner" stage. 

One of the things that put my dysphoria onto center stage was when my wife thought I'd look like a sexy andro rocker with a bit of eyeliner to make my eyes pop.   When I saw my reflection, I just about died.   I saw the "real me" for the first time and realized that I was kidding myself about being a guy.  What I saw was a glimpse the sad, angry, desperate woman that I tried to keep a stranglehold on.  I didn't want to have to be a transsexual, not even remotely, so I exhausted all other options before I could accept that.  And I mean ALL options, which put me in the hospital twice.

I tried to make it work as androgynous/bigender for a few months before the estrogen took over and I realized I wasn't even remotely male to begin with.  I almost always wore a bit if eyeliner when I went out.  The last time I tried presenting andro/male in public was in March, 2012.  By then, I was so much more natural presenting female that I felt ridiculous as a guy.  The tits were about to be a dead giveaway anyway.

Thanks everyone.  I really do appreciate your thoughts and it has done some good.  Although, I must play my constant role as the devil's advocate, so forgive me.

Quote from: JamesG on April 16, 2014, 07:37:08 AM
I have lived most of my life as an ugly duckling.  :(

Awkward transitioning is actually an improvement.  :-\

Well, I feel the same way.  It's just that transitioning brings up a lot of feelings.  The more I get into it, the more I see the hardships are easier to overcome than what I originally thought.  Much of what my family warned me of is coming to light and it's hard.  Though I don't regret this.  It's sort of my only choice.

Quote from: Seyranna on April 16, 2014, 07:43:23 AM
This phase lasted 2-3 months for me. But considering I transitioned in the late 20ies I got very lucky genetic wise.

See, I started transitioning at 24 and am currently 25.  Yes I see changes, but it's so freaking so and I have some many uncertainties.  I sort of wish I could have left this phase quickly.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 07:58:37 AM
I avoided it by going full time immediately. I have never made a better call in my life. I considered how I would feel being in the awkward stage and knew it would have been detrimental to my transition with second thoughts and such. Going full time right off the mark makes you immerse yourself in your new life and makes it where you don't see a lack of progress. It also occupies your mind and doesn't let it drift through self doubt. I have gotten so used to seeing the woman in the mirror that NOT to present causes problems for me. I used every tool in the arsenal (wigs, breast forms, etc.) to make my vision come to life instead of waiting for my body to catch up. As it does I can drop some of the trappings and still feel good about what I see in the mirror.  :)

Here's the thing though.  Even if I try really hard and go full time, it won't change the fact that I'm andro.  While I'm sure that I could pass for the most part at this point should I give the needed effort, I want to get into a phase where effort isn't required.  Where it's impossible to view me as male and everyone sees me as my respective gender.  At this point in time, I'm no where near close to that even if I can pass to some degree.  That's why I hate this andro mode.  It's like this in between stage where you are neither one category or another.  you just stand out.

Quote from: Alexis Paige on April 16, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
I was in that stage for a few months. It was definitely hard somedays. I ended up going full time when I realized that I was being gendered a mix of male and female throughout the day. At that point I threw on a bra, tight fitting shirt, and some make up and haven't looked back.

I never was able to see myself as androgynous or female in the mirror, but I took my cue that it was time from strangers. Honestly, I still don't see it in the mirror most days and I pass 100% of the time. Well at least no one ever openly clocks me.

Quote from: sad panda on April 16, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
hmmm... body image and self-perception is really difficult though. Sometimes I still swear I look like a boy and people act like I'm crazy. I never noticed myself changing much though.

Yeah, self perception is a pain.  I openly acknowledge that I probably see myself in a much worse lght than what others do.  But then again, I know some overly confident transwomen that are convinced no one knows yet that really isn't the case.  It can bite you in both ways.  That's why I'm vigilant at making sure I see everything wrong with me because at least I'll be aware of it and can work on improving it.   I just don't want to get made fun of and laughed at.  I don't want people to hate me.  I just want to blend in and that's really not possible at this point; therefore I strive to get there in other people's eyes.  I'll probably never like how I look or se myself in an accurate way, but I will have to live with it as I don't see that changing.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 16, 2014, 11:24:25 AM
Yep... definitely went through it.

For about the first 10 months, I was being gendered nothing but male. It drove me INSANE. One day I started thinking that maybe I was starting to look reasonably female-ish in the mirror, and figured that maybe if I dressed more androgynously I might be able to squeeze a "she" out of someone on a fluke. I still didn't. People maybe started avoiding pronouns a bit, because they weren't as sure of what my gender was, but it still took another month and a half after that before I FINALLY got my first "she." And for the next three months after that, it was a constant mixture of male and female pronouns.

During this between stage, I was getting called "she" and "he" with nearly the same degree of certainty from various people. I was getting stared at in the men's room, but still wasn't passing consistently enough to use the women's room. And I was too scared to wear blatantly-female clothes because I was so afraid that people were going to look at me, and be one of the people who was gendering me male, and see me as a freak. And these fears weren't unfounded. The first time I wore a blatantly-female sweater in public without my wig on, an elderly gentleman came up to me, sneered, and said "if my kids dressed like that, I'd smack them." It took a LONG time, going through like 10 different presentations, and three months of wondering if I should go full-time or not, wanting to but being too scared because I still wasn't consistently seeing a girl in the mirror, before I finally started slowly emerging from the other side.

Finally what pushed me over the edge was getting fired from my job. I realized that whether I was ready or not, I couldn't put up with hiding anymore, and couldn't start yet another job still in hiding, still feeling like my true self was going unrecognized. So I went full-time. And you know what? I'm still kind of in that androgynous stage. I've crossed over from just pure androgynous to more feminine androgynous, but I'm still a long way from reaching the point where my gender is just incidental again. And it still bothers me. Every single morning I wake up and look in the mirror and see someone that is neither blatantly female nor blatantly male. And I have to put on my earrings, and blatantly-female clothes, in order to be able to see a girl. And yes, it really does bother me. I hate feeling like I'm wearing a mask, and feeling like I'm not really a girl yet, I'm just someone who dresses as one. But it reached a point where I just couldn't wait anymore, whether I was ready or not.

It does get better. It just takes a while, and you have to keep moving forward and trying new things if you really want to find a presentation that works.

And as horrible as this sounds, I really don't still believe that I'm passing most of the time. It's only because I keep going out there, and keep hearing female pronouns, that I believe it. So as much as it hurts when you don't pass, (trust me, I know,) the only way to know for sure is to keep going out there, and see how people treat you. That's really the key to getting through this, is to just try your best to live your life and not let fear keep you completely paralyzed.

Thanks Carrie.  We think alike in a lot of ways, so it makes me feel glad to know you were able to find some sort of compromise with these feelings.  It gives me some hope.  But I really don't know.  Like today I went shopping and I looked at the girl ringing me up.  She was just a girl.  She didn't need to think and plan everything ahead.  She was just her.  That's what I want.  I don't want to feel like I have to put on a costume for other people.  I just want to be myself all the time and have my appearance match my identity at all times.  It feels like we require so much work to be ourselves when it's such a simple concept for everyone else. 

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 16, 2014, 11:35:28 AM
Briefly - a couple months, and then I started being startled by male fail at the oddest times. But yes, in terms of hope, HRT worked wonders and I have no trouble whatsoever blending in as a woman now. :) I also think the andro phase was shortened for me by having done a lot of voice work pre-HRT; it's hard to judge since the majority of genderings took place after I opened my mouth, you know? Odds are at least some people took me for ambiguous until that moment when I talked for at least a few months longer. As others have said, it does also help to be dressed/presenting female, as scary and hard as that is at first; people add up all the cues and make a snap decision that way.

*hugs*

Thanks.  I've been working on my voice, though it's my biggest issue.  It's an important reminder and good lesson to keep voice training as a priority.  Even the most convincing trans women will be outed in a second from their voice if it isn't dealt with.

Quote from: HoneyBunny on April 16, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Yeah I am still in that in between androgynous phase when I go out in boy mode. It is weird because no one uses pronouns with me and I hear little kids ask is that a boy or a girl.  Once in a while I will get called lady, if I am with another girl in boy mode or miss, in boy mode. In my opinion I look androgynous even in girl mode, but if I wear highly gendered stuff clothes I can get put into one column or the other. The thing is girl clothes are more gender than male clothes so it is easier to look more blatantly female than male. It is weird though that I am still in this andro phase at over three years hrt. Maybe if I get ffs I will pass as a girl even in boy mode.

Sorry to hear you are in a similar boat.  Though you make a good point that presentation can really make a differece.  I agree with that, though I want to be myself and look as that without even thinking about my presentation.

By the way, I love your avatar.  It always makes me laugh.

Quote from: Jill F on April 16, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
I had my "guyliner" stage. 

One of the things that put my dysphoria onto center stage was when my wife thought I'd look like a sexy andro rocker with a bit of eyeliner to make my eyes pop.   When I saw my reflection, I just about died.   I saw the "real me" for the first time and realized that I was kidding myself about being a guy.  What I saw was a glimpse the sad, angry, desperate woman that I tried to keep a stranglehold on.  I didn't want to have to be a transsexual, not even remotely, so I exhausted all other options before I could accept that.  And I mean ALL options, which put me in the hospital twice.

I tried to make it work as androgynous/bigender for a few months before the estrogen took over and I realized I wasn't even remotely male to begin with.  I almost always wore a bit if eyeliner when I went out.  The last time I tried presenting andro/male in public was in March, 2012.  By then, I was so much more natural presenting female that I felt ridiculous as a guy.  The tits were about to be a dead giveaway anyway.

Yeah, I always feel weird about my chest.  People do notice and sometimes stare at it.  That's one of the reasons being andro sucks because you can't pass as either and yet it's obvious something is going on.  I try to wear insanely baggy clothes while I'm still waiting to go fulltime, though even then it's noticeable.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 16, 2014, 07:42:03 PM
  While I'm sure that I could pass for the most part at this point should I give the needed effort, I want to get into a phase where effort isn't required.  Where it's impossible to view me as male and everyone sees me as my respective gender.

LTL it will always take effort and there are ALWAYS people who will question. Even cis girls get read by the public. You have to be realistic and come to understand everyone has something that makes people guess. Some things are very small of course, but who are you trying to please you or everyone else. I will always get clocked, but the only difference between you and I is I don't care. I am living for me and that is where you need to get. I understand you wanting to appear totally female, I really get it, but by what scale are you using to go by? Are your goals realistic or something no one could meet. I fully support you and always will, but to me the only thing you are lacking is confidence. Once you get it you will wonder why you ever obsessed over others views of you. You will never please everyone and that is a fact. Stop looking in the mirror on the wall and look at the one in your heart. The rest will follow I promise. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 07:54:40 PM
LTL it will always take effort and there are ALWAYS people who will question. Even cis girls get read by the public. You have to be realistic and come to understand everyone has something that makes people guess. Some things are very small of course, but who are you trying to please you or everyone else. I will always get clocked, but the only difference between you and I is I don't care. I am living for me and that is where you need to get. I understand you wanting to appear totally female, I really get it, but by what scale are you using to go by? Are your goals realistic or something no one could meet. I fully support you and always will, but to me the only thing you are lacking is confidence. Once you get it you will wonder why you ever obsessed over others views of you. You will never please everyone and that is a fact. Stop looking in the mirror on the wall and look at the one in your heart. The rest will follow I promise. :)

I care very deeply about what other people think of me.  Even on this little forum.  I don't know why, but it matters so much to me.  I guess the thing is it really hurts when you let your guard down only to realize how much that defensive structure was needed because what's really behind it is ugly in so many ways (not just appearance wise).   But really I don't know why I care so much about how other's view me.  I try so hard to not upset them or cause them to hate me or laugh at me.  For once, I just want to feel free and happy, but I know realitistically that even that will be tied to other people's perceptions.  I mean I'm really open and candid here, but I care a great deal about what people think of me and that's why I get emotional sometimes when I realize how negative some people see me.  Imagine me letting all my baggage down and walking out the door in the real world as myself without a care in the world about other people.  That's just not me and probably never will be.  I think I need to find a compromise between my need to not offend others in some way and feel free and open with myself.  How that effects my appearance is that I must blend well enough so that no alarms are rung.  That way I can be free to be myself at all times and other people don't need to be offended, angry or think poorly of me.  Is that a healthy compromise?  Probably not.  I just know no otherway around it.  I know myself and don't think I'll change even though I'm trying. 

I so wish you were here in Oklahoma girl. I would take you out and let you see it is not as bad out there as you think. It really isn't.  ;) people are much to wrapped up with their own issue's to care most of the time. I like you so much if you are in one of our bordering states I would do the same by getting you out and about. I so hate to see you locked in the prison of your mind and know in my heart it could be so different for you. Is there anything I can do for you? :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 08:16:54 PM
I so wish you were here in Oklahoma girl. I would take you out and let you see it is not as bad out there as you think. It really isn't.  ;) people are much to wrapped up with their own issue's to care most of the time. I like you so much if you are in one of our bordering states I would do the same by getting you out and about. I so hate to see you locked in the prison of your mind and know in my heart it could be so different for you. Is there anything I can do for you? :)

I'm sorry please understand I mean no harm to anyone, but I totally agree with Jessica that you have trapped your self in a prison that from my  point of view you will never escape unless you just  jump in the water and get use to it.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 16, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
I care very deeply about what other people think of me.  Even on this little forum.  I don't know why, but it matters so much to me.  I guess the thing is it really hurts when you let your guard down only to realize how much that defensive structure was needed because what's really behind it is ugly in so many ways (not just appearance wise).   But really I don't know why I care so much about how other's view me.  I try so hard to not upset them or cause them to hate me or laugh at me.  For once, I just want to feel free and happy, but I know realitistically that even that will be tied to other people's perceptions.  I mean I'm really open and candid here, but I care a great deal about what people think of me and that's why I get emotional sometimes when I realize how negative some people see me.  Imagine me letting all my baggage down and walking out the door in the real world as myself without a care in the world about other people.  That's just not me and probably never will be.  I think I need to find a compromise between my need to not offend others in some way and feel free and open with myself.  How that effects my appearance is that I must blend well enough so that no alarms are rung.  That way I can be free to be myself at all times and other people don't need to be offended, angry or think poorly of me.  Is that a healthy compromise?  Probably not.  I just know no otherway around it.  I know myself and don't think I'll change even though I'm trying.

Well here's another in a similar boat.  Right now the big deal for me is to just feel, and to be a little different.  I don't feel either boy or girl now, not in terms of emotional gender.  But even with the nails I still get read as birth gender.  Small boobs help that a bit.

But the girl in the mirror is kind of funny looking right now mid transition.  But a lot of progress.

People pleasing and fear stink.  And I sure know how you feel about the board members, because I feel the same way.  What they think matters to me A LOT.

The more experienced girls will help.  I am taking this andro stage as a giant positive step to be nurtured, valued, and cared for.  I smile when I see the subtle changes and know that I actually had the guts to finally do something to feel better.

It's alright to go andro for a little while, but LTL please do some experimenting and add a few more feminine things to your daily wardrobe and match up things that add color.  Yes, do the andro thing as long as you move a little forward each time you buy something.

I went from shaving off a heavy long beard to full time in five months, but spent the prior six months on HRT while hiding behind the beard.  After shaving and finding a few tops and jeans that looked pretty good on me I began to shop the clearance racks to increase the number of colorful tops and shorts I had.  But even during that stage I'd go out once or twice a week dressed in my casual women's shorts or slacks, a tank, and nice half-buttoned shirt to cover up.  My true 100% andro period only lasted about six to eight weeks because I was buying things that I figured I could wear full time someday, and I'd find ways to wear them when I could.  But the day to go full time finally showed up after about 3 months of switching around just to satisfy people and situations.  It brought complete freedom.

Understand who you are, and wear what you want.  It's your life and you have to live it, so do it the way that makes you feel best. 

Hugs

LTL, you say you want to get to a point where effort is not required.

That is an admirable and obtainable goal.

The thing is, effort IS required when you start coming out of your shell. It takes effort to learn what looks good on you. It takes effort to learn makeup tricks. It takes effort to learn to be a woman.

Disclaimer, I know I just said, "Learn to be a woman" and yeah, I know most of us are women in here... I mean it differently than it may seem at first glance. Not all cis females are seen as women. Many are seen as little girls or developing teenagers, especially actual little girls and developing teenagers. It isn't just hormones and genetics, cis women had to learn to become women too. It takes effort.

After spending the vast majority of time out in public as myself this last month, I have noticed that female peeking through more and more, even when I am in drab making no effort. My vocal inflections are softer, my posture is different, my gestures and mannerisms have evolved. My reflection, when I catch it out of the corner of my eye in a window, is full of femininity. And I am talking about times when I am not even consciously trying. The effort pays off faster than I can believe. It becomes subconscious. It becomes second nature. It becomes me.

It is happening because I am working on it, not because I am beautiful, not because I have a perfect hourglass, I am far less passable externally than you, but just when I can't feel any more female on the inside I am surprised with another new feminine gift.

I surprised myself on Monday, when I went to see some friends in a drag show, and one of them, a drag comedian, who knows I am an actor asked why I never get up on stage and do something for the show. Without missing a beat I said, "Because I am not an impersonator."

It takes effort to make being a woman effortless.

Believe me, I know I'm a totally messed up cookie.  I do need major work on my self image.  However, there is more to it all than confidence.  You could be confident that no one will think you are wearing a red shirt, but you would be wrong if you are wearing one.  Confidence is a way to influence reality, but not change it.  While I need work in this department, it's not everything.

With this particular thread, I was really looking to hear from those that started out believing they would never pass and found themselves pleasantly surprised in time.  I want to make it there, but I don't feel I'm at that point in it's entirety.  While I realizing passing 100 percent isn't possible, I want to be as close to that as possible.  It allows me to continue hiding and not worrying about how others view me when I let my guard down.  That is a huge problem of mine and I doubt it will ever change. 

Kia Ora,

The androgynous stage can be like childhood and it happens only once (unless one chooses to remain androgynous that is)...so enjoy what it brings-make the most of it...You can have some real fun with it...

I have some fond memories of my androgynous experience...The confused look on people's faces, not sure if I was a Arthur or Martha... ;) ;D

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Anatta on April 17, 2014, 07:47:20 PM
Kia Ora,

The androgynous stage can be like childhood and it happens only once (unless one chooses to remain androgynous that is)...so enjoy what it brings-make the most of it...You can have some real fun with it...

I have some fond memories of my androgynous experience...The confused look on people's faces, not sure if I was a Arthur or Martha... ;) ;D

Metta Anatta :)

It's funny because that's what I hate about being andro.  I feel weird either way.  Even on the phone at work today, I had someone argue with me that she was talking to a woman a minute earlier when it was me and yesterday someone thought I was one of my female coworkers.  In a way it's great, but then it makes me feel weird.  Like I'm not either gender.  I'm like this freakish hybrid that can't do either one 100 percent convincingly.  And the looks are horrible.  I care so much about what other people think that those looks make me want to go home, cry and hurt myself.  I really don't know what's wrong with me and why I care so much about others.  I live for them.  And I can't please them no matter how hard I try.  I'm just garbage and I hate myself.  That's really all there is to it.

Sorry for venting, I'm just really feeling like crap at the moment.   

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 08:34:40 PM
It's funny because that's what I hate about being andro.  I feel weird either way.  Even on the phone at work today, I had someone argue with me that she was talking to a woman a minute earlier when it was me and yesterday someone thought I was one of my female coworkers.  In a way it's great, but then it makes me feel weird.  Like I'm not either gender.  I'm like this freakish hybrid that can't do either one 100 percent convincingly.  And the looks are horrible.  I care so much about what other people think that those looks make me want to go home, cry and hurt myself.  I really don't know what's wrong with me and why I care so much about others.  I live for them.  And I can't please them no matter how hard I try.  I'm just garbage and I hate myself.  That's really all there is to it.

Sorry for venting, I'm just really feeling like crap at the moment.   

Well, lets not go and hurt yourself you've got whole lot of experience to look forward to.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 07:01:52 PM
I was really looking to hear from those that started out believing they would never pass and found themselves pleasantly surprised in time.

Think I was not pleasantly surprised? A picture is worth a thousand words! Time between this picture and my avatar, 4 months! :)

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 08:42:22 PM
Well, lets not go and hurt yourself you've got whole lot of experience to look forward to.

I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed.

Kia Ora LTL,

A while back (in another thread) you said you were seeing a therapist and was going to look into MBCT....How's that coming along ?

Metta Anatta :)

I didn't, even though it was recommended for me to do many people. I got tired of living as a man, and don't identify as androgynous, so I decided to "skip" it.
It's not required of you, only do it if you feel you can do it.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed.

A question for you LTL. I'm almost tempted to do this via a PM, because I'm going to be a bit hard :(. Sorry. I care about you a lot LTL, and I'd love to be able to help.

Lets suppose for a moment that you wake up tomorrow appearing completely female, but otherwise with your same current anatomy. How would you react? Would you be ready to venture out the door as your natural female self? Can you play the role of a woman out in the world? How is your voice? How are your mannerisms? Are there any male characteristics still there?

I'm guessing that you would have much the same issues you do now.

You seem to put so much stock into physically passing that I think it's hard for you to see the wool for the jumper. I'm sorry if that is harsh :(.

Passing is about so much more than appearance.  I've said to you before, you physically pass better than I do. And I have no issues what so ever living as me.

But, it's fine. You could be physically ready to take the big social step already, but you're certainly not mentally ready. And that is more than OK. Be thankful that you're not far from it. And it's way less scary than you think. As someone who has been there and done that, all you need is confidence.

So start off with baby steps to build some confidence. It doesn't take much, and then all you have to do is let it snowball!

So what if you get clocked once or twice? You probably cannot avoid it. Are you not a woman? Are you not being authentic ( even now you're being authentic in your andro phase )? Isn't it their issue and not yours? It's not the nicest thing, but it's no different than someone taking issue with you over something stupid.

I'm not trying to push you into going full time or even part time. Start smaller, start where you're comfortable. But do take those tiny risks.

I know the middle-of-the-road is hard. I've been there, done that. It's amazing how quick I got out of it once I started growing that confidence.

So plan something small to expose your real self. Don't sit there sad and feeling down, because that won't help you at all.

Please?

PS. You should know that the post of yours ( and my reply ) interrupted my baking. Not very thoughtful ;) :P

Quote from: Anatta on April 17, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

A while back (in another thread) you said you were seeing a therapist and was going to look into MBCT....How's that coming along ?

Metta Anatta :)

I love my therapist, but I don't know how well I'm progressing.  While I was considering picking up a second one that is trained for anxiety and depression issues as their speciality, I've read that you shouldn't see two at the same time.  I feel very conflicted and don't know how to proceed.

Quote from: Lauren5 on April 17, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
I didn't, even though it was recommended for me to do many people. I got tired of living as a man, and don't identify as androgynous, so I decided to "skip" it.
It's not required of you, only do it if you feel you can do it.

I would skip the andro stage if there were possible, but I think it is for me.  Sure I've recieved wonderful feedback from many people; however, walking the walk is much different than judging a photo on a forum.  I have potential that could be shaped into something one day, but who knows.  In any case, I'm really not the best person to assess my own body because I have MAJOR body issues.  Like really big ones compared to most people, so how can I ever know for certain?   I guess the measuring tool for me is to consider what other people may say and try to hide from their potential problems with me or their judgement through passing.

Quote from: SammyRose on April 17, 2014, 09:44:39 PM
A question for you LTL. I'm almost tempted to do this via a PM, because I'm going to be a bit hard :(. Sorry. I care about you a lot LTL, and I'd love to be able to help.

Lets suppose for a moment that you wake up tomorrow appearing completely female, but otherwise with your same current anatomy. How would you react? Would you be ready to venture out the door as your natural female self? Can you play the role of a woman out in the world? How is your voice? How are your mannerisms? Are there any male characteristics still there?

I'm guessing that you would have much the same issues you do now.

You seem to put so much stock into physically passing that I think it's hard for you to see the wool for the jumper. I'm sorry if that is harsh :(.

Passing is about so much more than appearance.  I've said to you before, you physically pass better than I do. And I have no issues what so ever living as me.

But, it's fine. You could be physically ready to take the big social step already, but you're certainly not mentally ready. And that is more than OK. Be thankful that you're not far from it. And it's way less scary than you think. As someone who has been there and done that, all you need is confidence.

So start off with baby steps to build some confidence. It doesn't take much, and then all you have to do is let it snowball!

So what if you get clocked once or twice? You probably cannot avoid it. Are you not a woman? Are you not being authentic ( even now you're being authentic in your andro phase )? Isn't it their issue and not yours? It's not the nicest thing, but it's no different than someone taking issue with you over something stupid.

I'm not trying to push you into going full time or even part time. Start smaller, start where you're comfortable. But do take those tiny risks.

I know the middle-of-the-road is hard. I've been there, done that. It's amazing how quick I got out of it once I started growing that confidence.

So plan something small to expose your real self. Don't sit there sad and feeling down, because that won't help you at all.

Please?

I know I need to do this, but the question is when?  I'm really yearning to gain self confidence and stop seeing myself as garbage, yet I don't want to push things to quickly.  If walking out of the house is going to lead to me getting clocked, which it has, then I'm really not up for it.  I'd rather reduce that possibility as much as possible and then take the smaller steps.

Mannerisms are fine.  I'm not changing who I am regardless.  I want to accept that.  I've always been different anyway.  My therapist once remarked that many transwomen have to relearn mannerisms when trying to blend, but she didn't think that was an issue for me.  Even though I am certianly more reserved and shy as male, I really don't give off a masculine vibe at all.  Voice is being worked on really hard.  I don't think I'm anywhere near close, but then I've been getting "misgendered" on the phone recently.  It's been quite bizzare for me, actually, because I never would have expected that.  Still, I need a lot more time with everything. June seems way too close.  Maybe I am ready and I'm just avoiding the hard work?  I don't know. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  They weren't harsh at all.  I always appreciate food for thought when it's done in a considerate manner. 

I seemed to have skipped that stage. I went full time when i started hrt and dressed very girly.

Quote from: noleen111 on April 19, 2014, 11:08:24 AM
I seemed to have skipped that stage. I went full time when i started hrt and dressed very girly.

I understand what you are saying, though is that possible for all of us?  I guess there was no way for me to have gone full time before hrt.  I would of just looked like a gay man in drag.  Now I'm much more andro and coming somewhat close to passing (some even say I do), but I'm still andro.  I went from looking boyish to looking andro.  I can't imagine going boy to woman in terms of appearance in the course of a day or even week.  It just seems so impossible for most of us, not all, if we are doing so with the expectation of passing.  I don't know.  I just want to make sure I blend as much as possible.

However, I'll admit.  I'm stalling.  I'm scared and terrified to start making the changes I need.  My therapist points out how much I like to avoid the reality of things and hope for an alternative situation.  The fact is I will have to put myself out there.  And she is right about that even if it scares and hurts me that I'm going to just have to grow up and get past my fears.  It's just I want to be at the best possible situation when I actually make a leap and attempt tackingling my fears.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 19, 2014, 06:17:36 AM
I love my therapist, but I don't know how well I'm progressing.  While I was considering picking up a second one that is trained for anxiety and depression issues as their speciality, I've read that you shouldn't see two at the same time.  I feel very conflicted and don't know how to proceed.

Kia Ora LTL,

Would you say that anxiety and depression are the main root of your identity/self esteem problems ? (From observation I would say they are)

If this is the case, then don't you think it would be wise to go with the therapist who 'specialises' in these issues..."A calmer mind 'Begets' a calmer world" where one can see things more clearly...

Don't let the ego try to beat you down and talk you out of it....

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Anatta on April 19, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

Would you say that anxiety and depression are the main root of your identity/self esteem problems ? (From observation I would say they are)

If this is the case, then don't you think it would be wise to go with the therapist who 'specialises' in these issues..."A calmer mind 'Begets' a calmer world" where one can see things more clearly...

Don't let the ego try to beat you down and talk you out of it....

Metta Anatta :)

Well, it's a combination of depression, anxiety, and gender dysphoria.  Oddly enough they are all tied together in some ways.  They aren't all stand alone issues in themselves.  I think my therapist is trying to get me to do more exposure therapy as a way to reduce my anxiety, thus in turn allowing me more freedom to assert myself and be myself without fear and shame, and thus leading me to a path where I can take on things or a lifestyle that will make me happier.  Overall, she's right.  But I just don't know how to get over my anxiety or self hate.  Everyone says believe in yourself and be confident, but how does one really do that?  How do I believe myself or become confident?  My therapist tells me there are no tricks and that I need to just face my fear and densitize myself to them, but I feel like there should be another step.  Maybe a specialist would help in that department in order to get me along the way.  I just don't want to leave behind my other therapist because she is very helpful.   Either that or I can just numb myself with meds and drugs to not feel as much anxiety.  Though that's not the best idea, but maybe I need that for the short term.  Still that's something I'm unsrure about as well.

I'm 6 months on hormones and I'd say I have been Andro mode for the last month and I'm expecting another 6 months of it at least.  If I put makeup on and a wig I can pass but to be honest I still feel like I'm acting when I wear a wig.

I'm growing my hair out and letting the hormones work.  Sure I might look a bit strange but I just try not to let it bother me.

When I go full time I want to be happy.  I'd rather have a few more months as an unhappy Andro than jump to fast

Quote from: learningtolive on April 19, 2014, 04:48:37 PM
Well, it's a combination of depression, anxiety, and gender dysphoria.

The former two are symptoms of the latter.  Totally related, most likely :(.

I went through an andro phase for sure.  I think my face was feminine enough to start with, but just in the way I carried my body, how muscular it was, how I held my hips, those sorts of things were so masculine that it didn't matter what my face looked like tbh.  It took actually a long time for those things to really get barrrrely into the feminine range.  I didn't work on it or anything it just sort of happened, I think everything just loosened over time or something, in any case I carry my body much differently now.  Those cues I feel were a big deal in the early days, and by early I mean like a full year or more, and really affected how I came across to people and definitely the image I saw in the mirror too.  Often though, what I see in the mirror has little to nothing to do with reality, but that is another story.

The thing I do when the mirror doesn't agree with me is I just stop everything.  Even if I had already done all this I get a shower, I clean my face, moisturize thoroughly, do all the regimen things, redo make-up/hair.  Often this fixes it.  I think because it is subtle things that throw off my appearance, and really getting all that makeup cleaned off and reapplied and the steam from the shower takes care of a lot of skin issues that can happen.  Also, a lot of times it is tired eyes for which I find cucumbers work wonders.  I don't always turn and ugly day into a pretty one, but I do often turn them into looking okay days.

When I was last on this forum I believe you hadn't yet started even trying to present female, or you were just starting to.  Idk if that has changed, but if you aren't making that effort, you might think about it?  It makes a huge difference.

Quote from: f_Anna_tastic on April 19, 2014, 05:38:06 PM
I'm 6 months on hormones and I'd say I have been Andro mode for the last month and I'm expecting another 6 months of it at least.  If I put makeup on and a wig I can pass but to be honest I still feel like I'm acting when I wear a wig.

I'm growing my hair out and letting the hormones work.  Sure I might look a bit strange but I just try not to let it bother me.

When I go full time I want to be happy.  I'd rather have a few more months as an unhappy Andro than jump to fast

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I feel the same way about not wanting to got too fast.  At the same time, I realize I'm probably going too slow.  I don't know.  But I think growing out you hair is a great idea.  There is nothing wrong with wearing a wig, but natural hair has been a great relief to me.  Sure it's annoying to have to blow dry and straighten all the time, but it always makes me feel better and one of the things I'm less dysphoric about nowadays. 

Quote from: Jen on April 19, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
The former two are symptoms of the latter.  Totally related, most likely :(.

I went through an andro phase for sure.  I think my face was feminine enough to start with, but just in the way I carried my body, how muscular it was, how I held my hips, those sorts of things were so masculine that it didn't matter what my face looked like tbh.  It took actually a long time for those things to really get barrrrely into the feminine range.  I didn't work on it or anything it just sort of happened, I think everything just loosened over time or something, in any case I carry my body much differently now.  Those cues I feel were a big deal in the early days, and by early I mean like a full year or more, and really affected how I came across to people and definitely the image I saw in the mirror too.  Often though, what I see in the mirror has little to nothing to do with reality, but that is another story.

The thing I do when the mirror doesn't agree with me is I just stop everything.  Even if I had already done all this I get a shower, I clean my face, moisturize thoroughly, do all the regimen things, redo make-up/hair.  Often this fixes it.  I think because it is subtle things that throw off my appearance, and really getting all that makeup cleaned off and reapplied and the steam from the shower takes care of a lot of skin issues that can happen.  Also, a lot of times it is tired eyes for which I find cucumbers work wonders.  I don't always turn and ugly day into a pretty one, but I do often turn them into looking okay days.

When I was last on this forum I believe you hadn't yet started even trying to present female, or you were just starting to.  Idk if that has changed, but if you aren't making that effort, you might think about it?  It makes a huge difference.

Hey Jen,

Thanks for the tips.  Yeah, my eyes suck.  I've tried almost everything and nothing works other than concealer for me in that department.  And I wonder if what I see in the mirror is an acurate reflection, I'm told it's not, but how am I to know?

I did try going out as female, though it was more gender neutral (just a little concealer and more tight fitting clothes), and I got called a ->-bleeped-<-.  Now almost everyone else ignored me completly and didn't act odd, but these 3 jerks thought it was okay to quietly snicker and say ->-bleeped-<-.  I kind of went home and had a breakdown since then.  Now I'm having an even harder time getting passed this all.   My therapist tried to spin it positively by saying you were more andro than anything and most people saw a feminine person, but come on, being called ->-bleeped-<- isn't a compliment.  Anyway, I know I got to get passed this, but I'm even more vigilant about passing now.  That's why I want everything to go as smoothly as possible, though I do realize I have to take risks and my therapist was giving me a hard time today.  She's kind of convinced that passing is no longer my problem and that my self esteem, fear and confidence are everything that's wrong.  Eh...

Anyway, may I ask, how long into hrt did it take for you to leave that andro stage?  I'm on like month 10 of hrt, but my current dosing (and the only really effective one) started in October, so it almost feels like 6 or 7 months of real progress.

It was slow, the body stuff.  I think it is still ongoing, but I feel my body is finally androgish and I guess my face kind of skews everything feminine enough that it works for me.  I didn't stop being at odds with my body in a major way until probably 2 years in.  I still feel somewhat at odds with it tbh.

I am sorry your first experience going out went that way.  Such a nightmare!  I wonder if it might have gone better if you had fully committed, instead of just doing tighter clothes and some concealer?  I find that people in society, I mean the terrible ones, react very poorly when they see the gender binary being challenged.  I wonder if sort of dipping your toe in rather than diving in headfirst actually worked against you?  Those kinds of reactions from people can be really destructive to your confidence, but if you can be strong, which being trans kind of requires, those experiences can be used as helpful feedback, cause you learn tangibly that something maybe needs to be corrected in your presentation.  I wish you had some girlfriends that could help you figure out a good style for you.  It is sooooo hard to figure it all out by yourself when you missed out on learning things as you grew up.  Also going out with them, so you aren't alone, would help muchly I bet.

Quote from: Jen on April 19, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
It was slow, the body stuff.  I think it is still ongoing, but I feel my body is finally androgish and I guess my face kind of skews everything feminine enough that it works for me.  I didn't stop being at odds with my body in a major way until probably 2 years in.  I still feel somewhat at odds with it tbh.

I am sorry your first experience going out went that way.  Such a nightmare!  I wonder if it might have gone better if you had fully committed, instead of just doing tighter clothes and some concealer?  I find that people in society, I mean the terrible ones, react very poorly when they see the gender binary being challenged.  I wonder if sort of dipping your toe in rather than diving in headfirst actually worked against you?  Those kinds of reactions from people can be really destructive to your confidence, but if you can be strong, which being trans kind of requires, those experiences can be used as helpful feedback, cause you learn tangibly that something maybe needs to be corrected in your presentation.  I wish you had some girlfriends that could help you figure out a good style for you.  It is sooooo hard to figure it all out by yourself when you missed out on learning things as you grew up.  Also going out with them, so you aren't alone, would help muchly I bet.

Well, the two years thing makes me feel a lot better.  At least I'm not hopeless here.  And I honestly am probably not as bad as I think I am.  I have a tendency to lean towards self hate and all, so that doesn't help.  Maybe I will start small somewhere more remote and see where that takes me.

Yeah, I plan on making my next "big" outing with friends, but I feel weird about reaching out.  I'm very socially awkward.  Like I feel like a bad or selfish person for asking my friends for help.  In reality, they would probably love to help me.  I'm just really not good with people and always worried that I'm making them hate me.  I've been planning this for months, but can't get the nerve to ask for help. 

First of all, we tend to fall into the societal trap of thinking of genders as black and white, if you look around you might discover that there are many shades of grey and there are plenty of people who choose to live as varying shades of grey, what is really causing us discomfort is that our outwards appearance does not match what we feel we should be.

Portraying anything other than black or white draws a lot of attention and we feel like we are outing ourselves to everyone even if it's the last thing we want, we are in fact advertising our biggest insecurity to everyone we meet before even opening our mouths.

I'm currently hiding in the sports group, I cycle into work, cycling clothes are form fitting for both genders, some people will assume I'm a feminine guy, others assume I'm an athletic girl. I use black eye-liner on my upper eyeline but I smudge/blend is so it's not obvious, I use white eye-liner on my lower tear-line, nobody ever recognises white make-up. I find this strategy fits me perfectly since I can be attractive but still androgynous, otherwise I'd have to dress drab so as to not draw any attention or trouble.

I can still put on a wig, full make-up and go out for an evening, not sure if I can still go out in guy mode, have not really felt the need. The first night I went out with all my friends full femme mode I gave them a heads up and tried to break the ice by sending them a selfie and asking them if they knew the girl, I think that sent the right message and set expectations without directly asking for help/support, if anyone had tried to give me grief I'm sure every last one of them would have fought tooth and claw.

Finally remember that humour can defuse even the tensest of situations but it has to be tactful and appropriate. Be proud but humble, know you are breaking social conventions and play on it, If I had I time machine I'd probably end up hitting on myself and giving myself quite the shock.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 07:01:52 PM
You could be confident that no one will think you are wearing a red shirt, but you would be wrong if you are wearing one.  Confidence is a way to influence reality, but not change it.  While I need work in this department, it's not everything.

That was effin'ing hilarious!!!! Seriously thank you i'm so so so sick of all ya need is confidence. No. It's not. I have about .01 ounces of confidence and my self esteem barometer has been lifting lately, but yet I go out in public, sometimes pretty hideously, and yet everyone calls me miss and if I have to pass as male for a bank withdrawal or something, it is the most awkward thing ever. Ugh, I hate disclosing. I had a medical examine once to get medical insurance and the intake nurse was talking to me about my vagina and just talked about it and talked it and I obfuscated the question. That's how much I hate disclosing. The other day on the train this women was telling me to make sure I dont get preggers that I need to live and have fun. I must look like a slut. Or really pretty so I have to beat guys of a stick but I just beat em off....jk ok not really but its only one guy,.

And yeah, I went from an "andro stage" to a "kind of pass not really pass" to a "pass but could still pass as male phase" to a "totally female phase can not pass as male phase" which it where I am at now, apparently. But for the first seven months of my 13 months of HRT my does was uber low. So,...i dont know how much it counts. I haven't worked on anything. But then again I've been playing with makeup for years, mainly had female friends growing up and heavily identified with stuff consider feminine, witchcraft, fashion, liking dat penis jk lol ok not really and I have about zero interest in guns, cars, fighting violence or any other macho crap. Though I will listen to my BF talk about cars since he real really wants one so ya know that's fun. But he must think I'm a total idiot half the time since I'm all like "what's torque?" No really what is it?

Quote from: kate on April 20, 2014, 07:15:43 AM
It was a little hard to make out the thrust of your post there, but i'm gathering it's something along the lines of 'it's not confidence, it's how you look that matters?'. In which case, i would say it's a bit of both really Joanna.

LtL, in my opinion, your right, confidence does play a big factor in how you appear in public. I remember many years ago walking through Camden town market. It's a pretty cool area, lots of different fashion styles and people. I noticed these two girls walking towards me and as i passed i could see one of them looked really nervous, head bowed, whilst her friend looked very protective by her side. This drew my attention and it then occurred to me that the nervous looking girl may have been trans. I wouldn't of even thought so or glanced at them had it not been for their body language. I wanted to stop them and say something like 'hey ladies, fancy going for a drink?', but they moved past too quickly. I didn't expect them to say yes, but i wanted to give her some confidence in herself.

I agree with a lot of what Jen said. Body language and how you carry yourself matters a lot. I was running with my sister the other day. I wore androgynous clothing and unfortunately i had a ltitle bit of light facial hair. The streets were pretty empty, but as we passed some people i couldn't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable. I didn't know how i was coming across visually to people but the way i run isn't typically masculine either. Anyhow we was passing this girl coming towards us and i needed a bit of a break. I slowed to a walk, and as she came nearer i went on the defensive, i swaggered past her like a guy and my goodness her eyes popped. How you carry yourself does make a big difference.

Oh yeah.  I agree that confidence can be an important thing.  It's something that I'm trying to acquire myself and it makes for a happier lifestyle.  The only thing is sometimes I feel like confidence is used as a magical word.  Sure its great to have and can influence reality, but it can't change things.  I mean it's sort of like the Emperor's new clothes.  The Emperor can go around confident of his new clothes and maybe influence people into not seeing everything wrong because of his attitude, but he is still nude.  You can't convince people you are wearing clothes when you are not.  And when it comes to passing, you really can't convince someone you pass if you don't at all.  The sad fact is looks do matter.  Confidence, voice and mannerisms are all decorations that help shape how we are percieved, but it can't change how we look and are visibility seen.  That's the problem I have with saying confidence is everything.  It's an important aspect, one that I desperatly need to develop, but I don't see it as a magical solution for someone who doesn't pass. Looks do play a role in many of our lives, and that is especially true for younger women.  Not that I'm young, but hell 25 year old girls are picked apart pretty harshly.  Then again, I do admit that I'm probably much better off than I see and probably can pass to some degree even at this stage (it's just going to take a lot of effort and well, that confidence thing), but it won't be 100 percent or close. Though I'm still in the early stage of this part, so once I continue developing it won't be as bad and/or hard as it is for me now.

Quote from: antonia on April 19, 2014, 11:59:21 PM
First of all, we tend to fall into the societal trap of thinking of genders as black and white, if you look around you might discover that there are many shades of grey and there are plenty of people who choose to live as varying shades of grey, what is really causing us discomfort is that our outwards appearance does not match what we feel we should be.

Portraying anything other than black or white draws a lot of attention and we feel like we are outing ourselves to everyone even if it's the last thing we want, we are in fact advertising our biggest insecurity to everyone we meet before even opening our mouths.

I'm currently hiding in the sports group, I cycle into work, cycling clothes are form fitting for both genders, some people will assume I'm a feminine guy, others assume I'm an athletic girl. I use black eye-liner on my upper eyeline but I smudge/blend is so it's not obvious, I use white eye-liner on my lower tear-line, nobody ever recognises white make-up. I find this strategy fits me perfectly since I can be attractive but still androgynous, otherwise I'd have to dress drab so as to not draw any attention or trouble.

I can still put on a wig, full make-up and go out for an evening, not sure if I can still go out in guy mode, have not really felt the need. The first night I went out with all my friends full femme mode I gave them a heads up and tried to break the ice by sending them a selfie and asking them if they knew the girl, I think that sent the right message and set expectations without directly asking for help/support, if anyone had tried to give me grief I'm sure every last one of them would have fought tooth and claw.

Finally remember that humour can defuse even the tensest of situations but it has to be tactful and appropriate. Be proud but humble, know you are breaking social conventions and play on it, If I had I time machine I'd probably end up hitting on myself and giving myself quite the shock.

I really understand where you are coming from here.  Though I don't really see gender as a black or white thing.  It's just that women typically look like women and men typically look like men.  I can't define what makes either of those categories, but there is something inherent that we all seem to pick up.  Sure there are people that live in the andro category, and I suppose I'm one of those for the moment, but most fall into either cateogory no matter their overall look or the differences in their personalities/interests.  That's what I hope to get to.

One thing I really did pick up from this is the need to develop a support system to help us develop some confidence.  My therapist constantly points out how little it is and how I have so much more oppossition and negativity around me that reinforce my negative self esteem.  Apparently, I need to escape from these environments and expose myself to more positive ones.  I just don't know how to find them. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 20, 2014, 03:24:04 AM
That was effin'ing hilarious!!!! Seriously thank you i'm so so so sick of all ya need is confidence. No. It's not. I have about .01 ounces of confidence and my self esteem barometer has been lifting lately, but yet I go out in public, sometimes pretty hideously, and yet everyone calls me miss and if I have to pass as male for a bank withdrawal or something, it is the most awkward thing ever. Ugh, I hate disclosing. I had a medical examine once to get medical insurance and the intake nurse was talking to me about my vagina and just talked about it and talked it and I obfuscated the question. That's how much I hate disclosing. The other day on the train this women was telling me to make sure I dont get preggers that I need to live and have fun. I must look like a slut. Or really pretty so I have to beat guys of a stick but I just beat em off....jk ok not really but its only one guy,.

And yeah, I went from an "andro stage" to a "kind of pass not really pass" to a "pass but could still pass as male phase" to a "totally female phase can not pass as male phase" which it where I am at now, apparently. But for the first seven months of my 13 months of HRT my does was uber low. So,...i dont know how much it counts. I haven't worked on anything. But then again I've been playing with makeup for years, mainly had female friends growing up and heavily identified with stuff consider feminine, witchcraft, fashion, liking dat penis jk lol ok not really and I have about zero interest in guns, cars, fighting violence or any other macho crap. Though I will listen to my BF talk about cars since he real really wants one so ya know that's fun. But he must think I'm a total idiot half the time since I'm all like "what's torque?" No really what is it?

See this is why I think confidence is a relative thing.  For some it got them out, for others it was developed as they go.   I think I'm more in the camp where I need to develop it as I go, but I need to be able to pass very well for the most part in order for that to develop.  It's sort of like a chicken and the egg thing.  I'm okay waiting, as long as I know it will come to this point soon enough.

By the way, it's encouraging to know that you progressed in those stages.  I'm sort of feeling like I'll be andro forever, and I'm hoping that isn't the case, but then I do see more and more changes as time passes.  Thank god for that even if it's slow.