Susan's Place Transgender Resources

(Just in case)

My apologies for any misunderstanding, I've just edited this and another post...I hope it now makes more sense...

Kia Ora,

If science did find the source of the transgender 'condition' (say for example they found without a doubt the cause was congenital) and they also came up with a way to 'normalise' the foetus - I wonder how many transgender people (ie, members here who are cured *post transitioned* and in the process of being cured *transitioning*) would support the normalisation of the foetus process if they were given a vote on it–which for all intended purposes this would mean the eventual elimination of the transgender condition from the human species...

From a personal view point, out of compassion I would not want to wish this 'condition' on anybody and if there was a way to prevent it in the future I would be all for it...

Even though I consider my self 'cured' with no devastating after effects (no regrets -no wishing things would have been different)  I more often than not adhere to the old saying of "Prevention is better than cure !"

Well what are your thoughts on this hypothetical question of sorts.......................................

Would you support intervention of those yet to be born ? (I would think this would be the most common option-but I could be wrong)

Or would you prefer(like in our own case) to let nature take its course ? (science should not play god with the foetus)

*Sorry....When I used the term "cured" I was referring to when members here "real time" have fully transitioned or are in the process of transitioning,(I consider my self now "cured"=I've fully transitioned) and the hypothetical part is: would you as a transitioning or post transition person support  foetus intervention of those yet to be born?

(Foetus intervention I see more along the lines of a 'preventative' measure)...*


Metta Anatta :)

Kind of one of those questions that could never really be answered. Dysphoria is so crippling that it does not even let you consider taking a "cure" because we don't feel right and know a change is needed, so it is kind of tough to answer this. Makes one think though. I personally think once you are so far into your transition and comfortable with yourself then "no" I wouldn't need a cure because I would not think anything was wrong at that point. Maybe intervention pre transition could work, but who really knows. Then there is the line that once is crossed by manipulating something then moving on to the next. Where would it stop? Making everyone the same with no flaws? Who would decide where to stop altering the body and mind? What criteria would be used?  I think it would be the same as letting Pandora's evil stepsister out of the bottle. :)

No different than any other condition. I think many would do the cure. I'm not sure how the child would even know about it once they grew up then.

So I wouldn't have been miserable, but I wouldn't be me exactly either?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I wouldn't feel comfortable manipulating a process like that.  Personally, if I can ever adopt, I will encourage my child to be themselves, whatever it may be.  I don't think a kid she be pressured to do anything other than find themselves.  I wish my family had done that.  Sure, I was allowed to gender bending stuff like dress up as Ashley Olsen and renact scenes from their mystery show with my sister (yeah, I was a very weird little kid), but then I was pressured to play sports despite my objections.  And the older I got, the more pressured I was to be a certain way and forced into a more rigid gender role. I knew that it was wrong for me to be me at a certain point.  That's something no child should ever have to feel. 

Therefore, I'm very much about kids being able to find who they are with as little influence as possible.  I think there is no greater way to manipulate your childs destiny and personality than altering their genetics.  For this reason, I would want no part in something like this.  It's no better than pushing your kids into one gender role or shaping them through influence them at an early age.  Hell, you aren't even giving them a chance to find themselves in any way.  That's like a crime to me.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 06:46:58 PM
Kind of one of those questions that could never really be answered. Dysphoria is so crippling that it does not even let you consider taking a "cure" because we don't feel right and know a change is needed, so it is kind of tough to answer this. Makes one think though. I personally think once you are so far into your transition and comfortable with yourself then "no" I wouldn't need a cure because I would not think anything was wrong at that point. Maybe intervention pre transition could work, but who really knows. Then there is the line that once is crossed by manipulating something then moving on to the next. Where would it stop? Making everyone the same with no flaws? Who would decide where to stop altering the body and mind? What criteria would be used?  I think it would be the same as letting Pandora's evil stepsister out of the bottle. :)

Kia Ora Jessica + others,

Sorry....When I used the term "cured" I was referring to when members here "real time" have fully transitioned or are in the process of transitioning,(I consider my self now "cured"=I've fully transitioned) and the hypothetical part is: would you as a transitioning or post transition person support  foetus intervention of those yet to be born?

(Foetus intervention I see more along the lines of a 'preventative' measure)...

Metta Anatta :)

For a fetus, absolutely. As you said, for me it's about compassion - I wouldn't want my child to go through the suffering of this. Being in the wrong body. No matter how much society accepts it, dysphoria will always remain and it's a tough thing.

But if they found a cure for adults...I don't know. It's too late for me to reverse it now.

A great question.  Sort of 'preselecting hair and eye colour'.  Wow tempting though it is, I am just not that sure.  Particularly now that society is changing, more accepting and there is more support and more treatment and lifestyle options available.   I suspect that removing this 'defect' is more likely to damage rather than to  enrich society.  Frankly I now feel blessed to be tg (although I haven't always felt this way).  I think that being 'two spirited' is a very rich way of being but know that many would prefer not to have been dealt this card.

Aisla

I don't play God and I wouldn't support this kind of genetic engineering. My guess is that the solution would be to abort the baby and I don't support that option either. It is bad enough people already abort their babies because of the birth sex.

People raise children with conditions much crappier than being trans. For all I know parents might be better informed and more trans people could be treated earlier in life if they knew their kid had the "trans" gene, but I somehow doubt that.

This kind of eugenics has resulted in forced sterilizations, racial genocide, forced abortions and attempts to eliminate the blind, deaf, homosexuals and anything else science has decided is unfit for the society. Don't take this topic lightly.

Well, I would rather be a trans woman than a cis man, and I would rather be a cis woman than a trans woman...so if "cured" meant being able to switch the genetic sex of the child to match the identified gender (rather than the other way around) then sign me up!

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 24, 2014, 07:33:37 PM
I don't play God and I wouldn't support this kind of genetic engineering. My guess is that the solution would be to abort the baby and I don't support that option either. It is bad enough people already abort their babies because of the birth sex.

People raise children with conditions much crappier than being trans. For all I know parents might be better informed and more trans people could be treated earlier in life if they knew their kid had the "trans" gene, but I somehow doubt that.

This kind of eugenics has resulted in forced sterilizations, racial genocide, forced abortions and attempts to eliminate the blind, deaf, homosexuals and anything else science has decided is unfit for the society. Don't take this topic lightly.

Tiffany

Agree. I apologise if my remarks were seen to be light hearted.   Treading down the slippery path of eugenics is not a course I would recommend for non life threatening disorders.

Aisla

Kia Ora,

I gather some here have a very vivid imagination and strong opinions, but this purely hypothetical question is not meant to be about aborting foetuses nor eugenics ...This was not the intention of the thread...so....

Imagine if scientists have found a way to safely 'prevent' the potential physical and mental 'suffering' of the new born child in later years (without having to abort the foetus)...

I would not wish what I've been through on others, so if scientists did find a 'safe' way I would support it whole heartedly....



Metta Anatta :)

But potential mental and physical struggles are part of which make us human and shape us. NO I would not want that part of us to end. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 08:18:29 PM
But potential mental and physical struggles are part of which make us human and shape us. NO I would not want that part of us to end. :)

Kia Ora Jessica,

What about the high suicide and depression rate ?

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 08:21:02 PM
What about the high suicide rate ?

Then again, how many trans people commit suicide because they don't seek professional help in dealing with their issue's? How many had other underlying issue's that combined with being trans? How many had undiagnosed or untreated mental illness? Trans does not = suicide. It may add to other issue's, but once I found professional help I accepted myself, made a plan and am living successfully. :) Had I not sought out counseling maybe I would have been a statistic.

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 08:21:02 PM
Kia Ora Jessica,

What about the high suicide and depression rate ?

Metta Anatta :)

I see your point, but I still wouldn't change my answer.  Despite my many issues that are well documented here, I'm glad to be myself and like that I've found my own way.  If I was just something that was programmed at birth, I don't know.  I guess we are all programmed at birth in certain way, but the interference goes beyond natural genetics. It takes away our discovery and individuality in some way. I've gone through a lot of pain in my life and there are things I wish I never had to go through, but I'm the unique me that could have only existed under these conditions.  I want the children of the future to be their own unique them.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 08:28:28 PM
Then again, how many trans people commit suicide because they don't seek professional help in dealing with their issue's? How many had other underlying issue's that combined with being trans? How many had undiagnosed or untreated mental illness? Trans does not = suicide. It may add to other issue's, but once I found professional help I accepted myself, made a plan and am living successfully. :) Had I not sought out counseling maybe I would have been a statistic.

Kia Ora Jessica,

I agree that seeking the right kind of help is the most important step, and can save many lives...

But regarding the hypothetical question, if scientists could prevent the kind of suffering that comes from being born transgender, surely one would not wish others to go through this kind of suffering if there was a safe way to 'prevent' it....

Depression due to one's condition is such a devastating thing for many trans-people...

Like your self, I too consider myself to be one of the lucky ones who got the right help...

Metta Anatta :)

Kia Ora

One person's challenge, is another person's suffering.  Both can offer a path to growth, discovery and enlightenment.   Removing nuance and moving to standardisation is not necessarily a good thing. I think that the focus should be on eradicating life threatening disorders.

Aisla

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 24, 2014, 07:33:37 PM
I don't play God and I wouldn't support this kind of genetic engineering. My guess is that the solution would be to abort the baby and I don't support that option either. It is bad enough people already abort their babies because of the birth sex.

People raise children with conditions much crappier than being trans. For all I know parents might be better informed and more trans people could be treated earlier in life if they knew their kid had the "trans" gene, but I somehow doubt that.

I the end I totally agree with Tiffany. I think it would set a bad precedent and other conditions would be tampered with. Humankind just does not know when to stop. Being trans is just part of life, good or bad. It may be terrible, but it makes us, well, us. :)

No way would I ever want to be 'cured' I don't have a disease. If i was born cis male then I wouldn't be me and I wouldn't have gone through the worst years of my young life to become more understanding and thoughtful of others.  The 'pain' 'suffering' is mostly brought on from others that discriminate against us...why should we have to change and not humanity it self to be more understating and knowledgeable, just a thought to a hypothetical question ;)

I'm proud to be trans* for who I am today.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 24, 2014, 08:36:30 PM
I see your point, but I still wouldn't change my answer.  Despite my many issues that are well documented here, I'm glad to be myself and like that I've found my own way.  If I was just something that was programmed at birth, I don't know.  I guess we are all programmed at birth in certain way, but the interference goes beyond natural genetics. It takes away our discovery and individuality in some way. I've gone through a lot of pain in my life and there are things I wish I never had to go through, but I'm the unique me that could have only existed under these conditions.  I want the children of the future to be their own unique them.

Kia Ora LTL,

But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place...Just the trials & tribulations that comes from growing up a somewhat 'normal' cis child...

The other point in your post it would seem relates to whether one sees gender as "mind (subjective experience) or matter(relates solely to the brain) "Nature or Nurture" or both ...

I gather that the neuroscience involved would involve the interaction of hormones to parts of the brain which in turn would somehow change the neuropathways of the newly forming brain...(But I'm no neuroscientist so I'm only guessing)....The whole subject of gender is just fascinating.... 

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 09:02:42 PM
I the end I totally agree with Tiffany. I think it would set a bad precedent and other conditions would be tampered with. Humankind just does not know when to stop. Being trans is just part of life, good or bad. It may be terrible, but it makes us, well, us. :)

Exactly my point.  Would I have wanted to be "cured" in the womb if I knew that the person I would become wouldn't exactly be me? 

My wife says no effing way.  What if I turned into an a*hole or had zero musical talent?

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:07:10 PM
But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place

The fix could also cause other issue's like DES did. I would not like to be like everyone else. I would not be original anymore. :)

Kia Ora,

"I" think some are going beyond the hypothetical question that relates to those not yet born, and if science(no doubt it would be neuroscience) was in the position to change the possible unsavoury outcomes ...

The interesting and encouraging thing about all this, is how many are now saying they wouldn't change a thing, indicating that "what does not kill you makes you stronger" ...And if this is truly the case I hope they will take this newfound courage by the horns and run with it through all life's trials and tribulations  and safely complete their journey...

However regarding the hypothetical question I still stand by my original stance of : I would not wish the trans-experience on anybody...Even though I may have past through virtually unscathed(lived to tell the tale), I see many less fortunate than my self...

BTW it's good to see the shifts in opinions....

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
BTW it's good to see the shifts in opinions....

Being trans opinions are not the only things we shift! *giggle* ;D

Quote from: Aisla on April 24, 2014, 09:01:07 PM
Kia Ora

One oerson's challenge, is another person's suffering.  Both can offer a path to growth, discovery and enlightenment.   Removing nuance and moving to standardisation is not necessarily a good thing. I think that the focus should be on eradicating life threatening disorders.

Aisla

Kia Ora Aisla,

I agree but... sadly "for some", the trans-condition "is" a life threatening disorder...

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
Being trans opinions are not the only things we shift! *giggle* ;D

Kia Ora Jessica,

True  ;) ;D

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
Kia Ora,

I gather some here have a very vivid imagination and strong opinions, but this purely hypothetical question is not meant to be about aborting foetuses nor eugenics ...This was not the intention of the thread...so....

Imagine if scientists have found a way to safely 'prevent' the potential physical and mental 'suffering' of the new born child in later years (without having to abort the foetus)...

I would not wish what I've been through on others, so if scientists did find a 'safe' way I would support it whole heartedly....



Metta Anatta :)

Do you even realize how insulting this is? You are saying that through some scientific breakthrough that would cure trans from somebody before they're even born, you would be ok with that. And when I bring up a real world, historically accurate depiction of exactly what that kind of thinking creates, you accuse me of having a "vivid imagination" ::) I also find it insulting that you act as if removing transness from somebody is this high minded endeavor and way of saving them.

What happens to people who are still born trans because their parents decided it wasn't a crime to be trans? Do they have to live with fewer resources? Is there even more fear of being trans? Is it less socially acceptable because it should have been eradicated? How do they feel about not being "cured" before they were born? Will this hypothetical cure be mandated and enforced? There are more involved ethical questions and more serious consequences than you even realize. But you treat it as if it's just some casual topic to be discussed around the table. Do some research and you will find that humans have been having and implementing this hypothetical cure of yours for over a century. And it's not imaginary.

I would welcome a cure, be it in the way of making sure our brains developed the same way as our bodies or the other way around.

Wishing gender dysphoria upon another person is in my humble opinion like hazing, just because we had to endure pain and it probably made us who we are does not mean that others should be forced to follow in our footsteps. I also got bullied as a kid, although it did make me stronger does not mean that I want other kids to be bullied.

As for changing DNA, I'm a type 1 diabetic, without genetic engineering I would be dead, my insulin is grown using genetically modified bacteria. As such I think genetic modifications are a good thing.

The question of should we modify human DNA, well that's a whole other subject that has nothing to do with being trans or genetic modifications in general, I think this is a philosophical and societal question rather than a medical or scientific question.

In my opinion it will happen because it's impossible to ban it in every country and it can easily yield short term benefits for whoever does allow it to happen, I can't say about long term benefits but capitalism is not affected by long term benefits so unless we change the economic system of the entire world I think we are bound to head down the path of designer kids.

I don't think that the cure would be necessary if science progresses as far as you suggest. By that point people would be more knowledgeable about the trans* community and more importantly, parents would be aware of a child's gender identity prior to birth which means that a MAAB child who is identified as mtf can be raised completely as female and begin a "traditional" transition as soon as medically advised.

Also I'm not sure which way the suggested cure would work... Would a MAAB have their brain altered so they identify as male, or would the treatment modify their primary and secondary sex characteristics to female to match their gender identity?

Either way I feel it is more important for the world to be more aware and accepting of varied gender identities including non binary identities. They bring more perspective to life and should not be shoved into one gender or the other. That said I wouldn't protest against a "cure" I just don't think it would always be the best option.

Kia Ora,

Thank you for the interesting responses so far....

Some trans-people believe HRT(which BTW is for the most part synthetic) along with changing the body can also change the way one perceives things,(Ones sexual orientation for example) if this is truly the case, are we not already meddling with Mother Nature ? Acting like a creator god ?

I'm well aware of the history of eugenics and how at one stage Germany and the US had great interest in it, but I would like to stress, this is not about the worse case scenario...it's about on compassionate grounds (and I do mean compassionate grounds) if neuroscientists could find a safe way of 'helping' to 'end' unnecessary suffering (in other words where babies are still born but their developing gender matches their birthsex)....Remember for many, being trans is no walk in the park...

I apologise if the contents of this thread makes some feel uncomfortable, I added a "TRIGGER WARNING" just in case....So please don't read more into it than what's been written...

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: antonia on April 24, 2014, 11:11:40 PM
I would welcome a cure, be it in the way of making sure our brains developed the same way as our bodies or the other way around.

Wishing gender dysphoria upon another person is in my humble opinion like hazing, just because we had to endure pain and it probably made us who we are does not mean that others should be forced to follow in our footsteps. I also got bullied as a kid, although it did make me stronger does not mean that I want other kids to be bullied.

As for changing DNA, I'm a type 1 diabetic, without genetic engineering I would be dead, my insulin is grown using genetically modified bacteria. As such I think genetic modifications are a good thing.

The question of should we modify human DNA, well that's a whole other subject that has nothing to do with being trans or genetic modifications in general, I think this is a philosophical and societal question rather than a medical or scientific question.

In my opinion it will happen because it's impossible to ban it in every country and it can easily yield short term benefits for whoever does allow it to happen, I can't say about long term benefits but capitalism is not affected by long term benefits so unless we change the economic system of the entire world I think we are bound to head down the path of designer kids.

Kia Ora Antonia,

You make some interesting points, but arn't designer children already a reality ?

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Skyler Lusk on April 24, 2014, 09:06:26 PM
No way would I ever want to be 'cured' I don't have a disease. If i was born cis male then I wouldn't be me and I wouldn't have gone through the worst years of my young life to become more understanding and thoughtful of others.  The 'pain' 'suffering' is mostly brought on from others that discriminate against us...why should we have to change and not humanity it self to be more understating and knowledgeable, just a thought to a hypothetical question ;)

I'm proud to be trans* for who I am today.

Kia Ora Skyler,

I'm happy that you're proud (and hope you will continue to be proud of who you are and what you achieve)...But look at the big picture, if there was a way to stop others from going through the pain, anguish, suffering that many go through, if a cure was readily available, wouldn't you want to end their suffering ?

Remember this is a hypothetical question and it's not about our personal journey-nor present circumstances...It's more along the lines of showing some compassion and being "humane"...

I see members here who are at their wits end, depressed, suicidal, would I want to prevent this kind of suffering-by nipping it in the bud so to speak ? It's a no brainer....

Just for the record I consider myself cured "I transitioned" no more dysphoria-body and mind matched up ( The cure for me was transitioning )

Metta Anatta :)

Question: Would such a fetal "cure" doom the human race to rigid gender definitions?

We really do a service to humanity - showing them that the chasm between the genders isn't what most people think it is. That just because you're physically one sex doesn't mean you need to act the way members of that gender are expected to act.

If we weren't around, who would remind everyone of that essential flexibility?

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:07:10 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place...Just the trials & tribulations that comes from growing up a somewhat 'normal' cis child...

The other point in your post it would seem relates to whether one sees gender as "mind (subjective experience) or matter(relates solely to the brain) "Nature or Nurture" or both ...

I gather that the neuroscience involved would involve the interaction of hormones to parts of the brain which in turn would somehow change the neuropathways of the newly forming brain...(But I'm no neuroscientist so I'm only guessing)....The whole subject of gender is just fascinating.... 

Metta Anatta :)

I don't know.  It just sounds wrong to me.  Like whatever the child was destined to have shouldn't be messed with.  That's just my opinion.  Even if it could go wrong and bad in their life, it helps form the person they are.  It makes them an individual and unique in this world.  I really believe everyone is special for some reason, and I think this experiment reduces that aspect of humanity to me by trying to force perfection. 

I think there are different causes for different people.  I think it's probably a mix of social and biological for most of us.  I've always been compelled to transition, but would I have been the same LTL (or girl) if I didn't experience life the way I did?  I doubt that.

I wouldn't support this I don't think we should tamper with nature in this way. I find that kinda thinking pretty scary to be honest. It's like saying a person can't be different and being different is a bad thing. I don't see my being trans as being a negative sure it has been difficult at times but to be honest I doubt I would be as happy as I am now had I been born the so called normal. And quite frankly I don't see the appeal in being just like everybody else. Being different is a beautiful thing and shouldn't be looked at as something that needs to be eliminated. 

I don't think I would go for a "cure." The experience of tossing aside what others want and prioritizing what I want has been so empowering that I don't really even care what trials I have to endure from this point forward. I wouldn't want to influence my personality with some kind of masculinizing procedure that "fixes" everything like magic. Where's the sense of achievement in that? I want the world to learn to love me, not the version of me that I've biologically altered to fit other people's perception of how things should be.

I'm really proud of who I am and what I'm accomplishing. I like the story I'm telling with my life. Isn't that what living is all about?

Besides, who's to say that the "trans" condition is really a flaw? Would it really be so bad if society were more accepting?

I think the only reason we see it as undesirable is because we live in a society that shuns it. How can we ever learn to accept what is different if we just morph everyone into more typical people?

This is a tough call for me to answer. Emotionally, maybe instinctively, I would want to spare a potential offspring from the pain of dysphoria. For me it's often a very jarring, very distressing, very physical thing. And I would want to spare someone else from having to feel that. But that is my protective instinct speaking, and my desire to not see anyone else in pain. The decision would probably be based on what I went through myself. A subjective one. And a misguided belief that it's the only way being transgendered has to be.

In all honesty, I don't trust myself to make such a decision free of that bias of my own experience. I don't trust myself that my desire to not see someone hurting would not override everything else. Talking about it in general is one thing, but if it were my own child, and I were actually faced with that decision... I fear that I would make a decision but it would not be the right one. Because I'm too emotional of a person. I fear I would overlook the voice in my mind which is screaming that, in a different environment, with different circumstances, this child would not have to go through what I went through. Things could be different. And, if I tried to be a good enough parent to look for, and recognise the signs that my child was not comfortable with themselves that I would be in a position to be able to help them in the way that I wasn't helped myself. To actually become themselves. To help them grow, give them the support they needed to flourish. To watch them walk their own path with pride and find themselves.

I guess my answer has to be: I'm glad I'm not having kids.

Kia Ora,

Thank you all for participating...There has been some really interesting comments-with some strong arguments against...

Overall it would seem that if such a "preventative measure" were available (even a safe one based upon compassionate grounds ) most members would oppose it, fearing it would or could lead to something more sinister...

That's fair enough, we have to follow our hearts and do what we feel is right... 

And I would just like to repeat what I said earlier that I hope you will all take courage when facing the challenges ahead and try to keep in mind this simple yet profoundly true "truth" when under mental and physical pressure:

"This too shall pass!"

Even though you know this to be true, more often than not it's forgotten at time of need... So make a 'note to self' to put on the fridge door....

And Sephirah you deserve a rep for such a heartfelt answer - thank you.... 

Metta Anatta :)