Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have other TS friends who get jealous of me; I get hit on, I don't get clocked, I am treated like a woman and no one questions my femininity (even those who know my past).

Although, I feel pretty lucky that I seem to pass so well, there are a whole other bunch of issues and expectations that are thrown on me, too. It gets hard sometimes because others don't see it. When you pass well, the expectations are very high. Getting hit on is nice in one way for the flattery, but on the other hand it is annoying.

I'm in a failing relationship with my girlfriend. I cheated on her, and what's worse is that it was way to easy. The guy had no clue about me, although we've known each other for a month. No idea. One he found out, it didn't change much. Maybe in a way if disbelief, I don't know. I hate that it was easy for me to attempt to fill in the void of my breaking heart with a brief moment of distraction. It wasn't the right thing to do, of course. It didn't get me anywhere. Although, I think it was the thing that finally pushed my gf and I to decide to work on our issues rather than to continue to drift apart. We're trying to work on things; we both love each other very deeply, but our relationship has been dead for months now. We both knew it would be a matter of time before one of us would do something like this.

I get sick of the jealousy. My life isn't any easier because I pass. It has its own set of problems. When the world sees you as a woman, you're expected live up to that. I've lived 27 years of my life in the wrong gender. Although I do reasonably well, the pressure isn't easy. I didn't have my teen-age girl years to learn, experiment, mess up, and explore myself as a woman.

I'm a woman, no doubt about it, but I'm in my own teen-age years trying to find my place in a woman's world. Who am I as a woman? At 28 going on 29, there's a sense that I should know a bit more at this age. But I don't have the advantage of living in the correct gender for long. It hasn't even been a full year yet. It's a stressful crash course.

Not only does jelousy come from other TS friends, but I've started to have girls get jelous of me. My own girlfriend, for example, has started to get jelous of my looks, my breast size, how much affection is thrown my way and other things like that.

What's worse is that I still have boy parts down there. It feels so discording. Every day gets harder and harder, I'm accepted more and more and I still have these damn boy parts dangling there to remind me that I'm not whole yet. That not-whole feeling tears me apart, even more so as the world around me sees me for the woman I am.

As for people just starting on the process, or having a difficult time passing. I feel for them. I know it's difficult. It's very hard and I understand that. I don't want to make it sound like I'm a princess whining.

Sure, there are a lot of great things about passing. A lot of wonderful things and respect that comes. It's a great feeling to be accepted as a woman with out doubt. It has it's advantages, but it also comes with it's own set of problems.

The discord between body parts and who you are becomes even greater. The expectations to know everything a woman my age should know becomes greater. And dealing with situations that you are not used and you're not sure how to handle it.

I used to walk down the streets with no problems at night, and now it is much scarier. I'm bothered a lot more. I'm not respected in the same way like I used to, all of a sudden my opinions don't matter. I'm treated like I don't know much -- people are surprised that I know stuff about computers, but then still don't listen and think that I must not know what I'm talking about.  I'm targeted a lot more. Hell, last year I had a man who tried to attempted to rape me. It's not easy being a woman, it's very difficult. This is the reality of womanhood.

And although I sound like that I'm bitching and complaining, I wouldn't trade being a woman. This is who I am. But the contrast and discord between a man and a woman's world is a lot more than I ever would have noticed. My gf didn't even realize it, she said plainly that she was used to her world and dealing with it. For me I think I'm still trying to find my way in a woman's world. And, because I pass I'm expected to  know it all when I don't.

I doubt I could of learned this before hand. I couldn't prepare to be a woman before going out there and being who I am.

I feel very honored to be a woman. And now I've started to connect with other women in a different way, in a way where we can share that common connection of what it means to be a woman. It's more than looking the part, it's more than body parts, it's more than acting -- it's something I can't even explain.

Somehow along the way I went from being seen as a male turning into a female, into being a female. Friends who have known me for years have started to connect with me in different ways, and they see me as much as a woman as they are.

Just one recent experience. I had a TS friend who started living full time several months ago. I had a drunk friend who came up to her and asked if she was a guy. It has disheartening for my TS friend and I talked to her and told her not to let those things bother her. I then talked to my drunk friend, who said that I was a woman without question, but my TS wasn't one yet.

It stopped me in my tracks. Somewhere along the line I entered womanhood. I then realized that passing isn't just looks, the way you act, how your hair is done, and how confident you are -- it's much more and on a deeper level of connection with other woman that I can't begin to explain. (My TS friend, btw, looks very good, and honestly, much looks better than me.)

But now, I realized that it's different; I'm on a different track than I was before. It's not easy. I'm glad that I'm here, but it's not easy. There are times that I don't know what to do, what to say, how to act. Now it's all different.


Anyway, sorry for the ramble, I just needed to get this out. I don't see too many people talk about this. Many passing issues are about looks, voice, hair, and so many similar things. Don't get me wrong, those are important things. But after all of that -- how do you deal with what is next?

--natalie

totally on your side here honey. I get this too sometimes. People are jelous of me, or dont offer support, even when i ask, as 'i pass, therefore i must be fine!' its heartbreaking to get crap in life, and from those who are meant to know how this feels.
and exactly, when your 'obviously' trans, theres less stress, while not ideal, it beats having to be perfect 24/7 to satisfy your own paranoia...
hey, even natal females get annoyed by being hit on most of the time :D

Before I transitioned, I've often wonder why there are not more guys who would act more feminine.

So someone might say feminism means equal right and that a woman can be just like a man, I disagree. If anyone has any practical experience of being a female , they should know that none of the equal rights change the way men and women interact with each other on a social level. And the way women talk to each other, that's just something *men* don't get. I love girl talks.

After I've been on HRT, I found how incredible it is with regard to the way men and women are treated in this society. You say that as a transsexual, there is a lot you don't know about being a woman that is true. I am sure that there are a lot of things we don't know, in terms of about being a woman and the many nuances and subtitles that we do *not* quite get yet.

If you think about it, a cisgender woman who has not been pregnant and never had a child will also not have the experience and knowledge that a mother would have. Being a mother, i am sure, is a new and special experience for any woman , not that I believe all women are naturally maternal.


I think cisgender women might not know how different women and men are treated in the society the way transsexual women do.


So while you might not have as much female experiences as you would like, I think you know something that a lot of women do not know.

Being a smart woman and being an empowered woman need a lot of work and it is not easy because I believe we live in a world that has always largely been created and defined by men and women have had many years of learning and socialization on how to be a smart and empowered woman in a man's world. It's hard enough to be a woman in a man's world, but it is harder to be raised as a man and than live as a woman in a man's world. 


It's a surreal experience to pass so well as a woman but still have the male part, it's very disorienting.  I enjoyed being hit on by guys as well, but it is also a scary thing to experience because I am just not used to be treated like the *object*. As a male, I was used to being the observer, not someone who is observed and I realize that while being hit on is very flattering, it can also be very oppressive and I believe this is one of the way women are being controlled in the public space.

Ands being a transsexual woman, especially one that is pre op or non op, there is an extra layer of hatred that makes misogyny even more dangerous.

Women are objectified in a way men are not, but transsexuals also face a lot of dehumanization, so adding all that, the social worth of being a transsexual woman is not high at all for a lot of people, especially striaght men. 

I went into the IT center the other day at university. my swipe card wouldnt open the gate to let me in. and if id been a male, id have had to go ask the security staff to let me in, sat there, ignoring me. but as a female, the guy came over and let me in, without my askingfor help when he saw i had trouble... society is so effing different from this side, its quite amazing to witness it all. One can never be prepared for being a woman in society, its something one has to experience and learn.

i wonder when this topic will turn into a 'OMG UR SO ELITEST CUS U THINK U PASS SO WELL' flame war?

Quote from: Rachael on July 20, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
I went into the IT center the other day at university. my swipe card wouldnt open the gate to let me in. and if id been a male, id have had to go ask the security staff to let me in, sat there, ignoring me. but as a female, the guy came over and let me in, without my askingfor help when he saw i had trouble... society is so effing different from this side, its quite amazing to witness it all. One can never be prepared for being a woman in society, its something one has to experience and learn.

i wonder when this topic will turn into a 'OMG UR SO ELITEST CUS U THINK U PASS SO WELL' flame war?

Oh my gosh. I so understand what you mean.

I was having a computer problem at the lab and I just totally played  the "I am a girl and I don't get this computer problem", and the guy just helped me out with everything and was being so nice to me and he was even blushing a bit.  This is something I clearly couldn't do if I was a guy. =p

NEED HELP? USE THE MAGIC TITS KEY TO UNLOCK YOUR PROBLEMS!  :angel:

hehehe. i get it when i go airsofting, thier like OMG girl, she must be new and need teaching which end of the gun is forwards andwhere the trigger is.
heck, last sunday i was bibleing down a road, and i hear a voice go:
'are you dead?'
me: no, why?
enemy: you are now
i turn to make the upcoming shot hurt less
and the guy just goes 'nah go on love, ill take that as a hit'
i was too 'aw chivelry' to turn and shoot him :P

I think you are absolutly right. Passing for me was the easy part. The mental anguish of trying to be someone you were not born as is the hard part. I took me a lot of years to feel as if I was truly accepted or not. At first you are pretending to be something that you really are not. You look at everyone around you to see if they are trying to figure you out. You develope a complex very fast. Most times you are harded on yourself than others around you.
Passing I think is more of an attitude thing. It dosent matter what your looks are as long as you are comfortable with yourself. That being said you can't go places with a 5 o'clock shadow and hair on your legs and think it won't be noticed. If you try to look presentable most times you will be ok. Who ever you are with needs to be presentable too or it will draw attention to you eventualy. Be consertative at first, then start to venture out.
I have said it before and I will say it again. All a guy really needs to see is long hair and boobs and you are a woman in their eyes.

Deb

Quote from: Rachael on July 20, 2007, 03:13:27 PM
NEED HELP? USE THE MAGIC TITS KEY TO UNLOCK YOUR PROBLEMS!  :angel:

While I'm Machiavellian enough to take advantage of the boys' silly chivalry, it still does kind of irritate me that guys only do this for girls, instead of everyone helping everyone out.

But I figure if someone is going to aid me, and I actually need the help? I'll use it. I'm all about making my life easier at the expense of people I don't know or don't care about.

^^

Hehehehe I'm evil.

aye, totally, im so paranoid it hurts, i KNOW i pass, but i keep failing to see it.and its SO annoying. i mean, i can look like ->-bleeped-<- , and folk dont clock me, heck, ive bound my boobs, work a plain long sleve tee and guy jeans (baggy) before
and been called miss, but im constantly worrying that the looks i get arnt checking me out or just casual observation, im obsessed that thier reading me. *shrugs* i guess ill relax eventually. But for now its scary as hell.
agree on the cleavage thing... men see boobs and forget ALL else :P

In the begining I was so parinoid also. Everywhere I turned I thought the worse. I was young though and I did survive. I mentioned before in a post that when I went out to clubs I would start drinking so that I really did not care what anyone thought. It got me by. Stupid thing to do, but you learn from your mistakes. Girl have I made some in my life.

Deb

My drug counselor ---who is actually a better gender therapist than my gender therapist---says that I get a lot of grief from other women my age because I am so much more attractive than them and that I have this really large sexual aura plus large physical presence that intimidates people even though I feel inside like just a vulnerable little girl. (OMFG and this is without the new puppies)

I didn't always pass this flawlessly, it was a gradual process, so I had time to adjust, I remember being truly amazed when I went into the Social Security office to change my name (three years ago) I had a bunch of papers and kept dropping them. Each time, all the older Cuban men would scramble to help pick them up.

So now there are going to be a whole new set of problems with my new yet aging Amazon Goddess body, like what will I do to keep all the women form bothering me in the locker room. Oh woe is me.

Then there will be the men! OMFG! The men. I guess I will just have to kill myself, I am in such stress over this.

the woes of passing well......

Getting hit on when theres nothing you can really do about it...
Guys stammering and studdering and tripping over there own two feet just because you gave them a small smile...
the GG's you know saying "I hate you" cuz your so thin, cuz you can wear that, cuz your boobs are bigger than mine, cuz you shouldnt be upset about going up to a 5-7 from a 3-5......
Mechanics treating you like you know nothing, customers doing the same in technical fields, being cussed at when driveing, even though your the one driveing safely :P  Haveing to be affraid when walking alone at night... knowing that when your being assulted and cant run away that your allmost totaly helpless....
yeah... passing can be a real b**** sometimes... but I still wouldnt give it up.

most of this is just 'LIFE' for females, only the really passable ever experience this. Also there's an edge of attractiveness in here. i think we have two scales, passability, and attractiveness, both overlap towards the 80-20% points where people might know, or wonder, yet still find you pretty, then its into the not concidered territory. Then life is as we say, 'normal' we just didnt have the teenage years to come to grips :)

There is also the fact that women ARE treated differently.

Many people (mainly men) can be very condescending, arrogant and belittle even the most prettiest women, by what they say and do.

Also I very rarely get guys talk to my face, they normally start a conversation with my boobs.

Buffy

this happens, and it sucks. but its life, maybe because we havent grown up experienceing it, it feels different, or a culture shock, but i guess some of the more experienced hotties can confirm it gets easier?
PLEASE TELL ME IT GETS EASIER??????

yeah, i REALLY like boys... i want one (as a pet)

passing equals confidence, voice, attitude & style.  if a guy starts a conversation with your boobs, hold his chin up & make him look at you.  i'm so thankful that i don't like men.  :P

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 20, 2007, 05:08:40 PM
My drug counselor says that I get a lot of grief from other women my age because I am so much more attractive than them and that I have this really large sexual aura plus large physical presence that intimidates people even though I feel inside like just a vulnerable little girl.
I didn't always pass this flawlessly, it was a gradual process .....

Quotethe woes of passing well......
Getting hit on when theres nothing you can really do about it...
Guys stammering and studdering and tripping over there own two feet just because you gave them a small smile...the GG's you know saying "I hate you" cuz your so thin, cuz you can wear that, cuz your boobs are bigger than mine, cuz you shouldnt be upset about going up to a 5-7 from a 3-5...... 

Quotemost of this is just 'LIFE' for females, only the really passable ever experience this. Also there's an edge of attractiveness in here. i think we have two scales, passability, and attractiveness, both overlap towards the 80-20% points where people might know, or wonder, yet still find you pretty, then its into the not concidered territory. Then life is as we say, 'normal' we just didnt have the teenage years to come to grips

..... etc. etc. ....

How can I constructively comment in a thread designed for those who seem to have such a high opinion of their passability?

The rest of this post was so "butchered" by the moderators that I've deleted all just leaving my pics (which I guess speak louder than words ... even though unlike some others here I would never ever dream of claiming that I was remotely more attractive than other women of my age  :-\  !)

Note from Susan: For the above comment on this post she lost her ability to post for the next week.

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Honest pics of me "warts and all", were others to be so forthright rather than bragging behind a mask of anonymity !

.... I'm just so happy to pass right now in my everyday life, never mind complaining about the disavantages of passing, most of which I can handle, and guess I have lots of good lines to put misogynists down  ;)  !

Laura x


^{edit - bit off color comment.}

It's not that I don't enjoy "passing" -- a word I really don't like anyway, because who am I passing for anyway? I'm doing this for myself, the world can shove it up there a$$ for all I care. Why should I care if I pass their inspection?

I get along very well in the world. And that's great. But it's not all roses. I get sick of people thinking that passing is going to make things much easier. Sure, it's great and you have a lot more, but then you also have a lot more expectations.

I wouldn't go back, of course. I'm a woman and that's final. And as a woman, there's a lot to deal with. I think Rachel mentioned culture shock. It's a different world than the world I have been living in most of my life.

I'm not saying it's bad, because I enjoy being a woman. That's who I am. What I'm saying it that it comes with a whole bunch of other expectations. And when you "pass" you need to deal with that.

A lot of TS people focus on passing (maybe too much), but much of that is looks, voice and other things. Although that is all important, there's a lot more to it. You can look the look, walk the walk, but still not get the part. There's a whole female culture to get, and that can only be experienced over time. There's the common connection that females have -- that only comes in time.

I live with 3 gg's, and I'm very social. For me, the social part and being with other females has been the most important part of my transition. I meet so many TS people who don't go to much of a degree of socializing and really suffer because of it. Socialization is actually a lot more important than looks, having boobs, getting a vaginal installation, all of the FFS you can afford, and perfecting your voice. The other things help, but socializing by far is a very important factor.

A natel female is born into the a womans world, we are not. There's a life time of stuff they have learned and have been ingrained into them. Sadly, with mtf, we've had the male world drilled into our heads. How you look and sound isn't going to fix that, neither is a surgical operation. It takes being full-time, being social, and sticking your neck out lots to hope to get to the point where others girls your age are at.

In other words: it's a lot of work. A woman is much more than looks, voice, and body parts. Much, much more.

in EFFING deed.
i dont enjoy passing, i am, therefore i enjoy being a woman, its my life, one is surely free to enjoy ones life?

Laura: yeah bird, you pass pretty damn nicely to the tune of 'lols i dont look like a man evar' in b minor.

When I was younger I remember men would chat me up pretty frequently, would sometimes make overtly sexual propositions, etc, etc.
I remember being flattered (after all it was a sign that I no longer passed as a male...), but it often left me feeling uncomfortable.  I was becoming aware just how objectified women could be by men.

And then all of a sudden it stopped, not completely, but it became much more subtle.  A look, a smile, a helpful hand, all in all much more respectful (though of course I don't know what the guys said between them when I wasn't in earshot...)

Why did this happen? The answer is that I'd finally become a woman, I was no longer adolescent, I'd stopped looking continually for validation in the eyes of the people around me... I diffused much more confidence, and men no longer felt they could just walk up to me and say whatever, thinking it would be enough for me to fall head over heels for them.

(I admit that at one point I was a bit concerned, I thought I'd suddenly been struck by the ugly stick and nobody wanted me anymore, but gradually I realised what had happened and that this wasn't the case; I'd just become more discerning and demanding, and the men could sense it).

MVER XXX

Merv: Men smell confidence, and they do not approach women as openly who seem confident -- you're not easy, in other words. There are men who are attracted to confidence, and those aren't going to be the guys who are looking for a quick lay.

And, I agree with Rachel -- it comes to a point when passing is no longer on your mind and neither is seeking validation. I've stopped doing that a while ago, although I had to break myself out of the habit. In a way I got a feeling that it was too good to be true; then when I realized it was true, I stopped caring. So, my mind is more occupied with other things rather than looks, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the whole passing bit and validation is normal and natural. Women do it when they are teens. We go through the same stuff. We just start it later in life. We go through the kid and teen stuff that other girls our age have already been through. Then one day you find yourself in womanhood and it's different. You then get to figure that out. And that's a life process of many different stages and other processes.

Right now, however, I keep finding myself not being able to relate to a lot of trans people very much because the subject is about passing, being trans, and other stuff. It can get difficult. I understand, however, that it's a natural phase we all go through at some point. But now I'm in another point and finding that I'm getting along more with trans people at this point.

My friend, R, who is a local girl actually got fed up and pretty much stopped talking to almost everyone, stopped going to group meetings, and so on. She got to the same point. She was like, "I understand what people are going through, and that it is important for me -- but I feel like I'm just sitting here, I'm somewhere else and I'm having a hard time connecting with everyone."

Her and I get along and we talk. I think I'm one of the few trans people she talks to. I still talk to a lot of trans people, although I don't like just hanging around trans people. I like hanging out with my regular friends more so these days. When we talk, we sometimes mention things that are going on and different goals -- but the majority of what we talk about has to do with run of the mill things. It's a breath of fresh air.

It's nice to talk about something other than transitioning all the time, and if we pass or not, etc. I rarely go to groups now, although I make a cameo sometimes. It's a big change.

So, yeah. Someone in my situation has a different set of things going on, but there's not a lot of talk about those things going on. I think I just got to the point that passing doesn't enter my mind often. I just live life.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, the whole passing bit and validation is normal and natural. Women do it when they are teens. We go through the same stuff. We just start it later in life. We go through the kid and teen stuff that other girls our age have already been through. Then one day you find yourself in womanhood and it's different. You then get to figure that out. And that's a life process of many different stages and other processes ....

.... Her and I get along and we talk. I think I'm one of the few trans people she talks to. I still talk to a lot of trans people, although I don't like just hanging around trans people. I like hanging out with my regular friends more so these days. When we talk, we sometimes mention things that are going on and different goals -- but the majority of what we talk about has to do with run of the mill things. It's a breath of fresh air.

It's nice to talk about something other than transitioning all the time, and if we pass or not, etc. I rarely go to groups now, although I make a cameo sometimes. It's a big change.

So, yeah. Someone in my situation has a different set of things going on, but there's not a lot of talk about those things going on. I think I just got to the point that passing doesn't enter my mind often. I just live life. 

Natalie, sure I agree with you - I don't go to groups (never much did) as the atmosphere is so claustraphobic.

I'm more "advanced" than you in that all my "practical" transition issues are behind me now ... I don't have your social life which I kind of envy as its something I've missed out on being so much older ... but I'm still very much in the "teen angst" phase, still a bit about looks, much more so about relationships, what I want from life ... if you really have it all sorted then good for you, personally I think its a process that takes many many years ...

After all if we say we are fully integrated and what went before is just history, then what are we doing in this forum ?

And most women link self-esteem and confidence very much to looks, don't they ? 

So its reasonable that we as a group are doubly concerned about appearance ... I might be the "guy" (female sense) who Shell, BP, or Total contact to solve their intractable oil production problems but somehow its not the same level of validation as someone complimenting me on my dress or looks ... sad isn't it  :-\  ?

Laura x

Quote from: Kiera on July 20, 2007, 04:04:57 PM

Quote from: Sophia on July 20, 2007, 03:37:15 PMWhile I'm Machiavellian enough to take advantage of the boys' silly chivalry, it still does kind of irritate me that guys only do this for girls, instead of everyone helping everyone out.

Hehehehe I'm evil.

Sophia, you have no idea! I live in The South where "gentlemen" defer to women everywhere they go, constantly. . . 1'st on the bus, give up seat if standing, oh let me help you with bags, etc, etc, BUT if the company hires women to to a job side by side with these "gentlemen" and they don't feel "a women" can do the same job as them adequately (which in the case of my job is perhaps part true) then Oh, You Ought to Hear the constant bitching and complaining that goes on then with bad language not being unheard of in their presence either.

Point Is -> is this hypocritcal or indeed is all this "fussing over" simply a way of keeping women firmly in their place? 


Considering what I am doing (stealth) I Am Very Evil Indeed Too!

My Policy -> EQUAL STANDING FOR EQUAL PAY! What a "damn yankee" notion! :icon_bunch:

It does seem to be a method to keep us in "our place" so to speak, but I know of a lot of guys who were genuinely taught that not doing these things for girls makes you a rude jerk. No kind of sexism included either.

I think I'm a bit more evil, because a lot of guys do it to butter girls up and get us to be more likely to sleep with them. I just fail to mention that they have no chance with me and take full advantage of their goodwill attempts.

^_^

Posted on: July 22, 2007, 12:17:17 AM

---

Quote from: Kiera on July 21, 2007, 09:10:01 AM
I'm sorry but to be MTF and not really attracted to & fascinated by otherwise more-or-less normal male behavior is totally incomprehensible to me. :icon_bunch:

LOL, I can't understand being interested in men. Got to love those clashing perspectives eh? And I observed their behaviors plenty when I was trying to pretend to be one. I've learned everything I can about the admittedly hilarious cultural predisposition to talk to breasts and become silly sycophants just to get a cute grin and a hair flip from a girl and if they're lucky a one night stand.

;)

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 21, 2007, 01:07:18 PM
The rest of this post was so "butchered" by the moderators that I've deleted all just leaving my pics (which I guess speak louder than words ... even though unlike some others here I would never ever dream of claiming that I was remotely more attractive than other women of my age  :-\  !)

Me either tbh, although i'm fairly pretty and in general content with my looks I feel most girls are prettier than me


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I can't see myself as a lad, in any way shape or form it just doesn't really compute but at the same time I'm not all that pretty compared to other 18 year old girls, I recon I get allot of positive attention out and about as I'm taken for being in my early 20's.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Merv: Men smell confidence, and they do not approach women as openly who seem confident -- you're not easy, in other words. There are men who are attracted to confidence, and those aren't going to be the guys who are looking for a quick lay.

And, I agree with Rachel -- it comes to a point when passing is no longer on your mind and neither is seeking validation. I've stopped doing that a while ago, although I had to break myself out of the habit. In a way I got a feeling that it was too good to be true; then when I realized it was true, I stopped caring. So, my mind is more occupied with other things rather than looks, etc.

Hi Gothique,

You're looking great and your posts show you're clearly well on the road to leading a 'normal' life.  As far as I'm concerned that's the whole aim of the game...

I actually think it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to know why you're doing it.

Personally speaking, I certainly try to make sure my eyebrows are sculpted, my lipstick's fresh, my skin's moisturised, my hair looks half decent, etc, etc... and I certainly still have the odd 'bad hair day', days when I feel far from desirable, or where I'm convinced I've put on 10 kilos and that I've no figure left, but the important thing to realise is that when we feel like this we're just facing the same issues and worries as the average woman out there.   

As far as I'm concerned, it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to do be doing this for the same reasons as any woman, and not for specifically 'trans' reasons (like: "Oh no, my nose does not slope up the the 'ideal' x degrees from my top lip", or "Why is my hairline 3mm higher than the female average?", etc, etc...)

MVER XXX

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 01:12:07 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 20, 2007, 02:49:28 PM
Women are objectified in a way men are not, but transsexuals also face a lot of dehumanization, so adding all that, the social worth of being a transsexual woman is not high at all for a lot of people, especially striaght men. 

women are objectified. ok. men aren't?

i'm not sure how it is in your world, but in the US, men are terribly objectified. Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, Keanu Reeves, Clint Eastwood, Marlon Brando, Cary Grant, all were or are sex symbols because of their looks. women are extremely selective and, as such, guys that are not all that good-looking are often ignored and pretty much worthless to them. it goes a step further. even good-looking guys, if they haven't got good jobs, are routinely considered bad choices for women -- women, who, themselves, do not have better jobs than the guys they are dismissing.
read an American romance novel. the men are always good-looking, well-built and capable of a deep emotional response.

and as for women, most of the good looking trans girls in the clubs are too busy objectifying themselves to be really aware of anything else going on around them.

we women just need to wake up and stop blaming males for something that they learned from us.

Men are objectified, but not as much as women are.

Consider beauty products and fasion for women. When you go to a clothing stores, you know that females have a lot more clothing choices and accessories to choose from, and how many men wear make up and how many women wear make up?

Of course I love to look at good looking guys and what not but it is not the same way men objectify women. Do women leer at men in public? Do they sexually harass a guy who is walking alone at night?  And women have to be scared of going topless on a hot summer day but men can go topless with little hassles.

I mean, men are objectified , but not like women and some women become used to this and learn to objectify themselves to get self worth, so of course women have to be responsibility for their actions as well.

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 03:10:35 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 22, 2007, 02:42:59 PM
Men are objectified, but not as much as women are.

in fact, males are actually much less selective than females.

this choosiness is the root of objectifying: sorting through, judging a few as eligible, and dismissing all the rest as trash. women do this all the time. it is possibly the primary reason that men have such difficulty establishing respect for women. in their turn, men often have to go for advanced degrees, engage in fierce competition for the best-paying jobs, or develop special skills, as in art or music, to get the girls' attention.

you can't really blame people for being this way, it seems to be a normal occurrence in the process of evolution and natural selection.

You can also say that natural selection argues for the "survival of the fitness", it would be a republican's wet dream to cut all social services to poor people. You can't blame the winners for being greedy and wanting everything for themselves and letting the weak die off, that's just the winners being winners.

I don't think I ever said that men can change, I don't expect anyone to change, but we can change ourselves and be informed of how other people are and how they might think differently than us.

I think women are much more selective than men.
They don't verbalize and put into immediate action
their objectification (which is what males do),
but ignoring you and  talking behind your back to other women,
that happens a LOT, and women talk a LOT about men, much
more than men will ever do.

I found out myself that I'm reverting to that kind of thing and very few men are considered eligible even for a innocent flirt; if that makes me look like the ice queen, so be it. I've found that many men, think a smile is an invitation to dance (metaphorically)... I hate that!

Well, women have to be selective! There are too many bad apples out there. heh. I don't mind flirting with anyone though and talking about boys is fun.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 21, 2007, 01:51:43 PM
A lot of TS people focus on passing (maybe too much), but much of that is looks, voice and other things. Although that is all important, there's a lot more to it. You can look the look, walk the walk, but still not get the part. There's a whole female culture to get, and that can only be experienced over time. There's the common connection that females have -- that only comes in time.

I live with 3 gg's, and I'm very social. For me, the social part and being with other females has been the most important part of my transition. I meet so many TS people who don't go to much of a degree of socializing and really suffer because of it. Socialization is actually a lot more important than looks, having boobs, getting a vaginal installation, all of the FFS you can afford, and perfecting your voice. The other things help, but socializing by far is a very important factor.

A natel female is born into the a womans world, we are not. There's a life time of stuff they have learned and have been ingrained into them. Sadly, with mtf, we've had the male world drilled into our heads. How you look and sound isn't going to fix that, neither is a surgical operation. It takes being full-time, being social, and sticking your neck out lots to hope to get to the point where others girls your age are at.

In other words: it's a lot of work. A woman is much more than looks, voice, and body parts. Much, much more.

I think there is a lot of truth in what I quoted, I've always had mostly female friends, and for some reason I have always been including in many conversations that my male friend would never have been nor prolly would not have wanted to be part of.

A key element in transistioning MTF is learning how to live in the social world women do, it is a much differnt world than a mans and I've made sure to immerse myself in it.  I feel as if I am getting a crash course these days a new social world through my core group of girlfriends.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 20, 2007, 02:14:55 PM
I have other TS friends who get jealous of me; I get hit on, I don't get clocked, I am treated like a woman and no one questions my femininity (even those who know my past).

Although, I feel pretty lucky that I seem to pass so well, there are a whole other bunch of issues and expectations that are thrown on me, too. It gets hard sometimes because others don't see it. When you pass well, the expectations are very high. Getting hit on is nice in one way for the flattery, but on the other hand it is annoying.

Ok, thanks for your post, it's appreciated. I would like to play devils advocate a little, and ask you if you feel so bad about passing so well, what's the alternative (not passing - being born female is the better choice but not a reality) and would you want it instead?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or anything remotely bad. It's just there are so many ts' - like me - who would love to be in your situation and pass so easily and rarely, if ever, get identified as ts. The alternative is far worse when you go out and everyone will judge you and think about you, and all you can do is try your best, but you know it won't be enough. Ever think about living like that every day? Thank your stars you are who you are, it could be worse or things can easily change.

Just my thoughts and I wish you well in your life.

--Susan--

golden windows proverb fits in RIGHT here...

Quote from: Ell on July 22, 2007, 05:01:33 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 22, 2007, 04:46:03 PM
There are too many bad apples out there.

true. because of bad parenting, lack of education, poverty or [gasp!] a combination of all three. you gotta feel for people that have struggled through that kind of existence though. where would you be if that had happened to you?

-ell 

Alot of guys who don't respect women have alot of education, came from rich background and have loving parents, you shouldn't make so much assumption. There is a whole new issue about how men are raised and socialized in this culture.

Quote from: Kiera on July 22, 2007, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: Sophia on July 22, 2007, 12:23:53 AMGot to love those clashing perspectives eh? And I observed their behaviors plenty . . .

LOL I suppose I never really did pay attention to what other males were doing. Too busy frustrating all the other girls . . .

lol, there was also the fact that a lot of the girls I knew liked to cause drama and issues. The guys were way more laid back and avoided the dramatic b.s. so I enjoyed being around them more. I'm lazy when it comes to drama and social image, and the guys I know don't care a whole lot about those things provided you have a good sense of humor and aren't a jerk.

I dunno if the guys would still treat me the same way as they did before, but ah well. I'd rather be me and have to seek out new friends then not be me with the old.

Quote from: Kiera on July 22, 2007, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: Mawd on July 22, 2007, 02:07:14 AMI can't see myself as a lad . . . but at the same time I'm not all that pretty compared to other 18 year old girls

au contrar Mawd! I'd trade looks with you! (see young pic of me drab in gallery)  ;)

I'm inherently lazy and rather not have to work on changing now, along with the few added years for sure . . . ;D

Attitude, attitude, attitude! :icon_bunch:

I assert here and now that Mawd is hot. And therefore lacks all right to call herself less pretty then other 18 year old girls.

^_~

upper class and backgrounds = more established cultural steriotyping...


but classwars and disrespect has little to the trouble of passing well. Like people who havent even considered im not female, so i cant be vulnerable or go to friends about my troubles in transition, because they just dont know...

no, that the house accross the valley has golden windows from yours, but when you get there, yours has the golden windows... grass is always greener etc...

I misread that as golden showers at first.

You should of seen the horrified expression on my face.

:o

thats later


ohshi... :o

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 22, 2007, 01:15:50 PM

Hi Gothique,

You're looking great and your posts show you're clearly well on the road to leading a 'normal' life.  As far as I'm concerned that's the whole aim of the game...

I actually think it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to know why you're doing it.

Personally speaking, I certainly try to make sure my eyebrows are sculpted, my lipstick's fresh, my skin's moisturised, my hair looks half decent, etc, etc... and I certainly still have the odd 'bad hair day', days when I feel far from desirable, or where I'm convinced I've put on 10 kilos and that I've no figure left, but the important thing to realise is that when we feel like this we're just facing the same issues and worries as the average woman out there.   

As far as I'm concerned, it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to do be doing this for the same reasons as any woman, and not for specifically 'trans' reasons (like: "Oh no, my nose does not slope up the the 'ideal' x degrees from my top lip", or "Why is my hairline 3mm higher than the female average?", etc, etc...)

MVER XXX

Oh, for sure. As a woman I want to look pretty. Every woman is like that. And I agree with: "it's ok to care about how you look, but the important thing is to do be doing this for the same reasons as any woman, and not for specifically 'trans' reasons (like: "Oh no, my nose does not slope up the the 'ideal' x degrees from my top lip", or "Why is my hairline 3mm higher than the female average?", etc, etc...)"

And, then there are people who want to have FFS to feel more comfortable. Some people might need it, while others might want it.

As for surgery. I plan on getting it and I should be having it done next year. For me, the surgery means having the my body match who I am. It doesn't solve all of the issues in my life, and it doesn't make life easier. I've talked to too many trans people who believe that once they have surgery, all of there problems would be solved. Having a vagina doesn't make the world any easier.

It's a personal choice if someone goes the surgery route. Some won't, and some will. There's no one-path-fits-all for trans people (or anything for that matter).

So, really, what I've been getting at is that passing doesn't make the world easier, nor does surgery, nor does anything else. Surgery cannot substitute self-esteem and confidence. Of course, they can work together. I feel more confident when dress nicely for a job interview, but the dress doesn't substitute who I am inside and my inner strength. In the end, it's you who wins the job, not the dress.

As for the ideal woman: it's a myth. There is no ideal woman -- be who you are and proud. I know plenty of women who don't fit the "ideal" but are quite amazing. The real ideal woman is who you are inside, not who you are on the outside.

That doesn't mean look homely, or not wear make up, or whatever. Make up is fun. I wear eyeliner. I dye my hair. I dress in my own style. It's great. But it doesn't substitute for who I am inside. That's all I'm saying.

I really don't like using the word "more advanced" --- that's nonsense. I'm my own person, just sharing her own feelings. Thinking of myself as holier-than-thou is a waste of time. I realize people are in different situations and dealing with different issues. I can't relate to everyone, and not everyone is going to relate to me. That's just how it is.

I'm no where near perfect, and I have a lot of my own issues to work out and other things going on. My relationship with my girlfriend, for example (we're trying to make it work, btw). The fact that work only paid me for 1/3 of my cheque and still haven't given me  the rest. The fact that the water is out and I want to do laundry before I go to work, but can't. Lots of issues. We all have this and that issues.

I'm not better than the next girl or worse, we all just have different things we're working on.

Posted on: July 23, 2007, 12:27:47 PM

---

Quote from: SusanK on July 22, 2007, 06:38:21 PM


Ok, thanks for your post, it's appreciated. I would like to play devils advocate a little, and ask you if you feel so bad about passing so well, what's the alternative (not passing - being born female is the better choice but not a reality) and would you want it instead?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing or anything remotely bad. It's just there are so many ts' - like me - who would love to be in your situation and pass so easily and rarely, if ever, get identified as ts. The alternative is far worse when you go out and everyone will judge you and think about you, and all you can do is try your best, but you know it won't be enough. Ever think about living like that every day? Thank your stars you are who you are, it could be worse or things can easily change.

Just my thoughts and I wish you well in your life.

--Susan--

Okay, I probably didn't make it clear -- and woe is probably a bad word choice. I make mistakes.

It's not that I don't dislike "passing" or wish I didn't. I'm very well aware how lucky I am, especially when other TS remind me of that constantly. And yeah, I'm very lucky that I don't live like many other TS people do. I've experienced it when I started, so I know what it's like and the hell it is.

It's not that I'm looking for an alternative to passing, or wanting to pass less. That sounds pretty silly, actually. And yes, I know it could be worse, etc, etc, etc.

I can't change who I am. And it would be silly to go back, etc. I love being who I am.

However, the other side of the fence isn't all roses either -- and that's when I get annoyed, because people think it's much greener over here.

Here's one: I'm seen as a woman all the time -- I can't remember when I got sir'd last. I'm pre-op. I still have boy parts. Someone tries to rape me -- finds the parts -- kills me. Sounds great, doesn't it? And yes, this happened to me... er, except for the killing part. I'm not the living dead (or so I say ;) ).

And, believe it or not -- just because I pass well, I'm actually quite open about my transition and my past. I don't wear a T-shirt or anything, but people know. I have a lot of friends who knew me before. People tell other people, and more people know. People at work know (from gossip). I also have a youtube blog.

I have helped and continued to help a lot of trans people who have started out. I know where they are coming from, and I'm very helpful. I've been burned countless of times and I've had my back stabbed even more so through it, but I still do it. If I felt better-than-they I wouldn't bother, and I wouldn't bother being an advocate for trans rights, either.

With all the people knowing, however, there is always the chance that the wrong person could know and hurt me. You see, when you pass well and the wrong person knows, they think that you are purposely going out to "trick" other people. I have one friend that had a group of men after her once. It's a scary reality.

I have a lot of good things going on in my life. I also have a lot of junk to deal with. I've been in very bad situations before, and good. We all go through that. So, I pass well -- that doesn't make me better off than anyone else, trans or not. But just because I pass well, it doesn't mean that I have a whole new table of issues to deal with either.

The point of my whole post isn't to down-grade or make my self sound "oh-so-much-better, I'm a princess and there's a pea under my mattress." Not at all. And if someone reads it that way, then that's how they are reading it. I'm far from being a princess.


And believe it or not, I still have days where I don't believe I pass, or I think the passing thing is too good to be true. I still beat myself up over it. So, just because I pass to the world, haven't beens sir'd since last year, it doesn't mean I still don't doubt myself from time to time. I've lived a life of self-destruct, and it's not easy to break the habit. I have scars all over my arms from cutting -- I get to live with people looking at those all day. I might be seen as a woman, but that doesn't mean that people worship me -- as a woman I'm subjectified a lot.

A woman was stabbed and killed in the parking lot of my work a week ago. I work until midnight and I walk home every day alone. Do you really want to know what goes through my head then? How it feels to be in a world where I'm more likely to be killed and raped? Is it that much better to pass?

Yeah, there are roses on the way... on the bench where another woman was the victim of violence. I've been seeing that every day. Roses always have their thorns.

Its all about perspective. Overcoming one problem (not passing) only means that other problems arise. Whether you pass or don't pass, whether you're ridiculously hot or really ugly, whether you're into guys or girls, everyone has troubles and the grass really is not greener on the other side once you get there.

No matter where you are, your life will have hardships and it will have benefits. And the moment people learn that perspective makes all the difference is the moment the jealousy, backstabbing and infighting stops.

I'm hoping that day comes soon.

Sorry people of I sounded so grim in that last post. I don't mean to discourage anyone. I don't have it easy because I "pass," however, there are a lot of good things about being a woman. I'm proud to be a woman and who I am.

I think I just got to the point of getting sick of people getting jealous of me, thinking that my life is so much easier.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 23, 2007, 12:59:46 PM
As for the ideal woman: it's a myth. There is no ideal woman -- be who you are and proud. I know plenty of women who don't fit the "ideal" but are quite amazing. The real ideal woman is who you are inside, not who you are on the outside.

That doesn't mean look homely, or not wear make up, or whatever. Make up is fun. I wear eyeliner. I dye my hair. I dress in my own style. It's great. But it doesn't substitute for who I am inside. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed, but don't forget, some girls like not wearing makeup and like looking frumpy or homely.

:D

Quote from: Sophia on July 23, 2007, 01:16:54 PM


Agreed, but don't forget, some girls like not wearing makeup and like looking frumpy or homely.

:D

True that.

I don't think I pass all the time either. I think my ability to pass depends on the person who is preceiving me. I might not be passable to another cisgender chinese woman because they know exactly what a chinese woman looks like. It's relative.

See I think the reason that my worries of passing are not consuming me is because I recognize that passing is not an end all be all solution to your problems. Its only a solution to two problems, being discriminated against for being trans and being unable to accept your body because it looks wrong, and not even that good of a solution to the first problem. In fact it can make things worse because people perceive you as a "trap" or something.

So I just try to do what I can for me and mostly try to avoid caring about what others think. As well as preserve my safety as best as I can.

Quote from: Sophia on July 23, 2007, 01:58:19 PM
See I think the reason that my worries of passing are not consuming me is because I recognize that passing is not an end all be all solution to your problems. Its only a solution to two problems, being discriminated against for being trans and being unable to accept your body because it looks wrong, and not even that good of a solution to the first problem. In fact it can make things worse because people perceive you as a "trap" or something.

So I just try to do what I can for me and mostly try to avoid caring about what others think. As well as preserve my safety as best as I can.

I agree.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 23, 2007, 01:26:14 PM
I don't think I pass all the time either. I think my ability to pass depends on the person who is preceiving me. I might not be passable to another cisgender chinese woman because they know exactly what a chinese woman looks like. It's relative.

I'm sure that for many people, it's often so much less about what you actually look like day to day, and so much more about how you feel about yourself inside...  It's not necessarily that you don't blend in at times, but quite possibly just that you don't think you do.

After all, most of us know all too well that feeling of having a spot slap bang in the middle of our forehead, or maybe on the end of our nose (yes, I once had that, thanks to a particulary unfriendly mosquito in Bordeaux a number of years ago...) and being sure the spot's the size of a small mountain, only to then realise that most people around don't even notice it's there...

If you look uneasy, anxious, in fear of being 'discovered', guilty, introverted, etc then people just can't help looking at you.  And of course, once they look at you, and if you're feeling really uncomfortable with who you are, then you'll be convinced that they've discovered your secret.  But the truth is they most probably haven't, they're just looking at you; no doubt even they don't know why...

MVER XXX

yeah, i dunno, i know folk look at other people all the time, its human nature, but im so paranoid. if someone looks twice, weather its a checking out look, or a comparing look, im so worried they read me. its embaracing, but then folk dont really have any ->-bleeped-<- pointers for me. i mean, how many transexuals (steriotypically) wear tight jeans and a baggy hoodie, and look female?

I truly think that passing is very important to all of us. I do think that all of us will be there sooner or later. There are so many factors of passing. Attitude and voice I think are the most important. You can be pretty and still not pass with out the voice. You can be pretty and look over your shoulder everytime you go out thinking to yourself will anyone notice just one little thing I forgot to do to look feminine.
I had excelent peers when I went to college. I lived with all lesbians and they took me under their wings. It was pretty wild at times trying to copy every move they made. Ovcourse I had crash courses on how to pick-up a woman. Only problem was I was into guys. I did have fun with the girls too.
I guess what I am trying to say is if you can partner with some GG females (lesbian or not) you will get the attitude and confidence you need.
You don't need to look like a model to pass. As long as you have the confidence to be a woman you will pass just fine. There are so many people in this world today with so many looks. How many of you really look to see if the person you are looking at is MTF or FTM. I don't. What I do notice is clothing and haircuts. If you see a mohawk you just figure it is a guy. If it is a nice cut short or long I assume you are female.
We are much harder on ourselves and that is just human nature.
Be yourself and be happy and everyone will be where they want to be in time.

Deb

i know people dont think it, but doesnt mean i dont or we dont.

Quote from: gothique11 on July 23, 2007, 12:59:46 PM
However, the other side of the fence isn't all roses either -- and that's when I get annoyed, because people think it's much greener over here.

Thanks for the response. I agree, both sides isn't always the best of times and places, something women know well, and transwomen have over again. We can't change our birth to be "one" of them, we can only try our best to be accepted in their and the world. And live with the rest of what happens. You seem to be doing well, or at least from what you say.

If you read Jennifer Boylan's and others' work about living you can see what you're saying resonates throughout their work. So, we're common and only our individual experiences vary. I'm reading Josh Waitzkin's new book "The Art of Learning", and it's interesting as it's less about chess and more about being and life. I think we can learn more from the world around us about be (trans)women than from the community itself as I've found it too often too introspective and myopic. Or it's just my view to always look outside for ideas than inside.

Take care and best wishes in your life.

--Susan--

we can be 'one of them' if being accepted by women and the world at large as transwomen is all we can have, ill die... i want to be just a woman, to need no justification of myself. to not be judged for the past. nobody asks you what gender you were born, and it doesnt matter, we are who we are in life, not in birth.

Rachael I could not agree more. You are absolutly right!  No one needs to know what we were . All that is important is who we are now.

Deb

Quote from: Rachael on July 24, 2007, 04:29:35 PM
yeah, i dunno, i know folk look at other people all the time, its human nature, but im so paranoid. if someone looks twice, weather its a checking out look, or a comparing look, im so worried they read me. its embaracing, but then folk dont really have any ->-bleeped-<- pointers for me. i mean, how many transexuals (steriotypically) wear tight jeans and a baggy hoodie, and look female?

Me. I've tried to look crappy. I've gone to work looking like crap. I even posted my last vlog on youtube wearing no make up, not dressing that great (a loose shirt and yoga pants). I still pass. I still pass when I try not to. I don't know why I try not to pass sometimes -- I think it's the amount of guilt I feel for passing (a lot of guilt and shame is thrown on me these days from other TS people, not just online, but those in my city).

The one last kick in the pants, although, is that no matter how messy, crappy, and grummy I look, I still don't get sir'd. And the other TS people I know are trying so hard, while telling me they wish they had my nose; and I'm there wishing I could make it better for everyone else and wishing that I didn't have to feel ashamed of who I am in my own community.

When your own community shames you for passing, where do you turn? When all of a sudden all of the expectations of a woman are thrust upon you, where do you turn?

Quote from: gothique11 on July 25, 2007, 01:18:14 PM
The one last kick in the pants, although, is that no matter how messy, crappy, and grummy I look, I still don't get sir'd.

My very first maam came barely four months into HRT, when I was wearing frumpy male-ish clothes, soaked from the rain, and depressed and down as I could be... and a store attendant stopped me from going into the men's dressing rooms.

I realized it was time to go fulltime when I showed up for two seperate dentist appointments in what I call my "dentist clothes," meaning old stuff I didn't mind getting bloody and icky. Oversized top, old jeans... hair tucked back to not get it dirty, no makeup (I never wear it)... and the receptionists at both places kept asking, "WHAT did you say your first name is?" (my male name is on the insurance).

AND YET... we hired a new guy monday, so I made SURE I got all fixed up nicely. No makeup still, but I was sure my hair was perfect, put on nice clothes, feminine dangling earrings... and the guy (may have) clocked me in two seconds (though there's some debate over this now, lol).

My life is one big irony though, so none of this surprises me, lol. I really am a jeans and T-shirt kinda girl anyway, so it's fine by me...

~Kate~

I wrote a post like this a while back: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8045.msg57704.html#msg57704 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8045.msg57704.html#msg57704). When I wrote it, I too was getting frustrated at the community for thinking I had it SOOO easy.  Well, that was about 4 and a half months fulltime.

  Now I tend to be a fast learner and pick things up well.  Eventually, I figured out the socialization stuff and at this point, I feeling I'm starting to get caught up for a woman my age.  I can wing most situations now.  As to worrying about whether I pass or not, it's not even a consideration anymore.  I kept testing myself more and more to see how much I could push the boundaries and I found I could do it just about as far as I wanted to.  I just know I'm taken as female and so I just be myself.  Many times I end up just so happy for no other reason than the relief I feel to finally be taken as the right gender.  I try not to put myself in situations where being pre-op would be a danger to me now.  By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive.  The intensity I put into it was to help build my confidence and that's exactly what happened.  However, I can't help but to frequently keep pushing that envelope just a bit further.

Some of the last things I've done are that I'm in a musical (with singing and everything) in stealth.  I've done some very masculine things in stealth like worked on my car with no makeup on and I was still addressed as a woman.  At the auto parts stores, guys didn't treat me like I was stupid because it was obvious I knew what I was talking about, but they did flirt (which happens somewhat frequently), so I know I was seen as female.  Actually, I'm not sure why those guys treat me with respect as opposed to other women; perhaps it's my confidence. ???

Anyhow, my point is that learning a new role can seem a bit daunting at first, but as you adapt to it and learn the ins and outs, life becomes much easier.  Being TS is hardly a huge issue for me anymore.  I have to admit that I'm scared that anybody will see my genitals (will be rectified soon), but other than that I love my life and I'm glad I pass.

I think when you start running into these issues of the TG community not being so accepting, it's time to take off those training wheels and start learning to balance more by yourself. :)

There are no woes to passing!

As far as "the community" opinions go... does it matter?  There really isn't a TS community.  This forum comes as close as possible to a community and I really believe that there is no ill will for those who pass.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 25, 2007, 08:27:52 PM
There are no woes to passing!

As far as "the community" opinions go... does it matter?  There really isn't a TS community.  This forum comes as close as possible to a community and I really believe that there is no ill will for those who pass.

Exactly my point that it may seem to have "woes" at first, but soon you realize those are really just aspects of being a female.  Remember, with the good comes the bad.  You can not have the yin without the yang.  In other words, you can't know how good something is unless you have something to compare it to, so for every good aspect of being female, there will be a bad one as well.  I guess I'm just feeling a bit philosophical at the moment.

As for community, I call this (susans/other forums) the "online" community.  I also refer to community as local support groups.  Just because the trans community is more dynamic than the gay community and resultingly people cycle through much more rapidly does not mean that a community doesn't exist.  It's just that it is different than you may typically expect a community to be and trying to stay in it is tantamount to trying to stand up on a slippery rolling log in water (told ya I was feeling philosophical ;)).

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 02:55:13 AM
As for community, I call this (susans/other forums) the "online" community. 

Susan's is a great forum and I have learned sooo much in a short time and it's been great to discover that there are so many others like me throughout the world. Yes it is a community, but it's surely a transient one, a bit like a bus with some  people travelling all the way to the destination, others getting on and off throughout the journey. Makes life interesting!
Sorry if this post is a little off topic.
Louise

Edit: Fixed quote source - Melissa

The trans community does exist. A lot of trans people might not participate in it, but that's their choices.There are transsexuals who have transitioned but still visit the trans community and do things on behalf of trans people.   

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
I wrote a post like this a while back: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8045.msg57704.html#msg57704 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8045.msg57704.html#msg57704). When I wrote it, I too was getting frustrated at the community for thinking I had it SOOO easy.  Well, that was about 4 and a half months fulltime.

  Now I tend to be a fast learned and pick things up well.  Eventually, I figured out the socialization stuff and at this point, I feeling I'm starting to get caught up for a woman my age.  I can wing most situations now.  As to worrying about whether I pass or not, it's not even a consideration anymore.  I kept testing myself more and more to see how much I could push the boundaries and I found I could do it just about as far as I wanted to.  I just know I'm taken as female and so I just be myself.  Many times I end up just so happy for no other reason than the relief I feel to finally be taken as the right gender.  I try not to put myself in situations where being pre-op would be a danger to me now.  By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive.  The intensity I put into it was to help build my confidence and that's exactly what happened.  However, I can't help but to frequently keep pushing that envelope just a bit further.

Some of the last things I've done are that I'm in a musical (with singing and everything) in stealth.  I've done some very masculine things in stealth like worked on my car with no makeup on and I was still addressed as a woman.  At the auto parts stores, guys didn't treat me like I was stupid because it was obvious I knew what I was talking about, but they did flirt (which happens somewhat frequently), so I know I was seen as female.  Actually, I'm not sure why those guys treat me with respect as opposed to other women; perhaps it's my confidence. ???

Anyhow, my point is that learning a new role can seem a bit daunting at first, but as you adapt to it and learn the ins and outs, life becomes much easier.  Being TS is hardly a huge issue for me anymore.  I have to admit that I'm scared that anybody will see my genitals (will be rectified soon), but other than that I love my life and I'm glad I pass.

I think when you start running into these issues of the TG community not being so accepting, it's time to take off those training wheels and start learning to balance more by yourself. :)

Thank you for writing that. :)

Posted on: July 26, 2007, 11:54:49 AM

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Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 02:55:13 AM

Exactly my point that it may seem to have "woes" at first, but soon you realize those are really just aspects of being a female.  Remember, with the good comes the bad.  You can not have the yin without the yang.  In other words, you can't know how good something is unless you have something to compare it to, so for every good aspect of being female, there will be a bad one as well.  I guess I'm just feeling a bit philosophical at the moment.

I totally agree.

Posted on: July 26, 2007, 11:57:49 AM

---

Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 03:31:33 PM

My very first maam came barely four months into HRT, when I was wearing frumpy male-ish clothes, soaked from the rain, and depressed and down as I could be... and a store attendant stopped me from going into the men's dressing rooms.

I realized it was time to go fulltime when I showed up for two seperate dentist appointments in what I call my "dentist clothes," meaning old stuff I didn't mind getting bloody and icky. Oversized top, old jeans... hair tucked back to not get it dirty, no makeup (I never wear it)... and the receptionists at both places kept asking, "WHAT did you say your first name is?" (my male name is on the insurance).

AND YET... we hired a new guy monday, so I made SURE I got all fixed up nicely. No makeup still, but I was sure my hair was perfect, put on nice clothes, feminine dangling earrings... and the guy (may have) clocked me in two seconds (though there's some debate over this now, lol).

My life is one big irony though, so none of this surprises me, lol. I really am a jeans and T-shirt kinda girl anyway, so it's fine by me...

~Kate~

Funny how it works out, eh? At first it's almost too good to be true, and you keep thinking, "are they blind?" But then you realize, that people just start seeing you for who you are.

My friend actually had something similar to you -- she planned on going "full-time" much later, but after being on HRT for 4 months, she started getting ma'am'd and sorta slid into being full-time.

I think it just happens when you are comfortable with yourself and not worrying how people perceive you.

Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2007, 03:31:33 PM

My life is one big irony though, so none of this surprises me, lol. I really am a jeans and T-shirt kinda girl anyway, so it's fine by me...

~Kate~

And why not, Kate, that's what many girls of your age wear habitually anyway. I'm sure from other things you have said about yourself you can get away with that fine. Now when I'm wearing tee shirt and jeans I look just like......a guy!!
Best wishes, Louise

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive. 

And what might *your* version of the RLT be? :)

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:27:40 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive. 

And what might *your* version of the RLT be? :)

Just read my posts over the course of the past year. ;)  I'll just say that there's not much left to do as a female that I'd been wanting to do at this point.

i think i agree with the ashamed thing... nomatter how pretty you are, your scared of being thought of as a 'guy in a dress' or some man homosexualifying (woot new word) predator by social steriotypes. maybe we fight so hard to pass, and worry about it, is because society is so effing stupid, that they can call someone with a female body, a man. Afterall, we cant see the mind. I got outed to my housemates boyfriend the other day, she had forgotten and thought he knew, and mentioned something. im still embaraced to be seen by him, because of what i know he knows... i was told he was like 'omg shes a what?' he doesnt care what i was born, but i care, im ashamed, of what i was, how i came to be.

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:27:40 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive. 

And what might *your* version of the RLT be? :)

Fighting ninjas and killing dragons?

;D

Posted on: July 26, 2007, 10:18:36 PM

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Quote from: Rachael on July 26, 2007, 03:47:44 PM
i think i agree with the ashamed thing... nomatter how pretty you are, your scared of being thought of as a 'guy in a dress' or some man homosexualifying (woot new word) predator by social steriotypes. maybe we fight so hard to pass, and worry about it, is because society is so effing stupid, that they can call someone with a female body, a man. Afterall, we cant see the mind. I got outed to my housemates boyfriend the other day, she had forgotten and thought he knew, and mentioned something. im still embaraced to be seen by him, because of what i know he knows... i was told he was like 'omg shes a what?' he doesnt care what i was born, but i care, im ashamed, of what i was, how i came to be.

For me its more afraid then it is ashamed. I'm scared that people are going to mistreat me or hate me for something that is in my past. If I'm around someone who's perfectly accepting of my transsexuality then I don't feel any real shame about it at all. Its only when I suspect that someone is bigoted or sees me as a threat that I freak out about people knowing.

Quote from: Sophia on July 26, 2007, 10:20:17 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:27:40 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive. 

And what might *your* version of the RLT be? :)

Fighting ninjas and killing dragons?

LOL, I did get a Katana during the past year and I have been battling with my divorce. ;)

i have airsoft assault weaponry i use regularly.
do i sense a disturbing trend in pain here?

R :police:

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 10:42:10 PM

Quote from: Sophia on July 26, 2007, 10:20:17 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:27:40 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
By the way, I know I'm seen as female in all situations because I did *my* version of the RLT >:D, which is much more intensive. 

And what might *your* version of the RLT be? :)

Fighting ninjas and killing dragons?

LOL, I did get a Katana during the past year and I have been battling with my divorce. ;)

SWEET.

MayIgetsomedragonscalespleasepleaseplease?

*runs in circles*

:laugh:

Quote from: Sophia on July 29, 2007, 08:48:14 PM
SWEET.

MayIgetsomedragonscalespleasepleaseplease?

*runs in circles*

:laugh:

Sorry, my scale only weighs humans. ;)

Quote from: Melissa on July 30, 2007, 12:40:46 PM

Quote from: Sophia on July 29, 2007, 08:48:14 PM
SWEET.

MayIgetsomedragonscalespleasepleaseplease?

*runs in circles*

:laugh:

Sorry, my scale only weighs humans. ;)

Darn... so Elves are out then, eh?   :P

Scott

Quote from: Mallard500 on August 17, 2007, 04:12:59 AM
Darn... so Elves are out then, eh?   :P

Scott

I don't know, it might work for that.  It was never mentioned in the manual and I haven't tested that yet. :)

Hi Nat, I like what Deb said about men only caring about the boobs and stuff and she is right, they are only interested in one possibly two things. Men are good at conning you into thinking they are nice but then its all an illusion.

A funny thing happened to me when I asked my son what he thought I looked like and he said you look like a guy with makeup on, I could have strangled him. His perception and the guys on the street are so different.

Sara.

Most men I have met can't keep their eyes on my face too long. If you watch for it they will always check out your boobs. When you walk away they will check out your rear. That one is hard to detect, because you can't turn around to catch them.

They will sweet talk you. Wine and dine you, but in the end they are really after one thing. Not all bad!!!!, but I do wish they would try to get to know me before making too many advances. I really need to be comfortable with their thinking before I take the leap past a goodnight kiss.

You don't have to be a raving beauty. You don't have to have big boobs. If you do dress appropriately you will be noticed.

Deb

Funny thing, I can handle the men staring because I know what they're focusing on, but it's when the women stare/check me out... then I'm wondering if my makeup is wrong, i've been clocked, or they're lesbian. I can handle lesbian, i'm all for that, it's the other two i worry.

Why do they stare?

Candi women stare just to see if you are looking better that they are. It is a comparison thing. We are always trying to look our best.

Men on the other hand want to express their masculinity. Most guys are just teddybears, but some are very rude. But all want one thing. That is to get into your pants. It is a natural human thing. The biggie is how they procede.

Deb

yeah, women looking is a comparison thing, its like a walking fashion magazine, thier looking to see how that hairstyle looks with that outfit, of how that hairstyle works out practically. or what makeup you used. and just plain inocent social interest in others around. lesbians generally gawk like men do IF thier checking you out, if thier just doing the rest, its not noticeable really. i have no issue with other girls looking at me, i ALWAYS look like a a rock star. >:D
R :police:

Oh yes, I look at most girls who pass me and think sometimes I wish I had their body or I wish my hair was like that and gee I love those shoes then when they look back at me I just smile and they smile and we go about our seperate things. Lesbians are not all that bad, I am one but I don't look at girls thinking I am going to have them in fact it is the opposite, I like some men but dont think I want them either. God, I think I am A-Sexual.

Sara.

I get that strange feeling of being either jealous, aroused or jealous and aroused when I see other women. It never occurred to me while I was in denial that lesbians could get the combination (in some cases) of wishing they were a particular woman and wishing they could bed and/or romance a particular woman.

Like I really really wish I looked similar to Alyson Hannigan (Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer). She's my ideal physical form for myself. At the same time, she's wicked hot (and a redhead) and I really really wish she'd track me down and sweep me off my feet.

Its kind of a mind blowing experience when you actually notice it.

Quote from: Sara on August 28, 2007, 02:56:57 AM
God, I think I am A-Sexual.

I notice that a lot of ts folk had no sex drive or attraction before HRT and SRS (because of mental blocks and just self hate of the body and such) and were kind of functionally asexual then. So maybe you'll start getting attractions and the urges after most of your transition is over? Its possible.

Soph: i was that way, i was pretty asexual pre hrt and transition. i just didnt care, never had a girlfriend, didnt want one, heck, i had a lapdance once on a night out with the 'guys' and didnt even get an errection... >< (i was a freak) i did have minor same sex attractions at the time, which i tried to brush over as curiosity, ive always liked boys, only now i feel like im happy enough in myself to persue the buggers!

R :police:

Hi Gina, well with not having any for 7 years and not even touching myself for going on 3 months now I think I qualify. I am just not interested mentally with all the hassels. I already have a partner who is having difficulty dealing with what is going on and even if she decided to leave me, I dont think I would even consider going out and finding someone else.

Sara.

Hi Gina, I totally agree by the grounding statement, any more grounded and I will be dead. I'm 43 so by the time things settle down I will be ready for the nursing home.

Sara.

There's a good number of people that point to sexuality as a more of a spectrum then boxes.

That everyone except for a small minority has a little straight or gay in them, and bisexual is only really when the attraction frequencies start to get closer in size for all both types.

I do find it a little irritating that its based on your own gender/sex in relation to the target gender/sex (really more the sex for the APA's purposes) when it should be based only on the target gender/sex.

Like androphilic means you're into guys and gynephilic means you're into girls, and no stock put on your own gender/sex. But of course the angry Christian right wouldn't want anything that didn't make a clear cut group to hate.

And unfortunately the people that make being gay into a universe shaking and social group defining aspect would oppose making it something that wasn't a big deal anymore.

Quote from: debisl on August 27, 2007, 10:09:22 AM
Candi women stare just to see if you are looking better that they are. It is a comparison thing. We are always trying to look our best.
Deb

I've noticed this is true.  I often spend lunch time at ->-bleeped-<- U, otherwise known as the food court at the mall.  I watch what girls wear, how they walk, how they eat, how they interact with each other, how they sit, and how they check out each other.  At this stage, for me, it is a bit disconcerting because when I get checked over, I want to run to a mirror and check my makeup or hair.  I've never been pointed out (knock on wood) so I must be doing OK so far.  But I do admit to being jealous of girls who can show that little bit of cleavage that hints at something voluptuous below.  That, IMHO, is what tends to really draw stares from the guys.  I can't say I pass all that well all of the time.  Really, how am I to know?  I guess those on here who have been out with me could tell you.  I've never made the mistake of thinking I'm some kind of raving beauty.  I do know that there are some times I've passed well, and that's all I know for sure.  I do my best to dress well, and blend in with the girls around me.  I hope one day to lose the nervous edge.  It's much less than it used to be.  But I hope I don't get so comfortable that I get  careless.  That would be a possible disaster.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I'm pretty comfortable at this stage in my transition.  I don't reaaaallly know how well I pass or not.  I work in an office full of women, and nobody treats me weird, so that is all that really matters to me.  So long as people give me a chance to be a person and not a stereotype, then I think I'm good.

I don't get hit on by guys that often, but I'm usually with my friend who is very pretty, so my initial reaction when it happens is to think they were talking to her.  So I am fairly oblivious.  I have been hit on by some really nice girls though.  This beautiful woman told me I looked like Debbie Harry, and petted my hair--I was ready to melt in her hands, she was so warm and nice and amazing.  And then a photographer wanted me to model for her, but I never called her number back as I don't really like how I photograph.

But yeah.  Not a lot of guys I don't think.  Which is good, because like out on the street at night that scares me.  Especially when I'm walking by a group of guys who may be drunk.  Just because you never know.  Guys can be really stupid and dangerous when they are drunk and in groups.  To women in general.  And then I can only imagine what happens when drunken frat boy finds out he's been hitting on a transgender woman.  So yeah.  Those situations worry me.

I get jealous of pretty petite women, its like a competition, i hate it.

Quote from: Kristi on August 29, 2007, 11:38:16 PMI often spend lunch time at ->-bleeped-<- U, otherwise known as the food court at the mall.  I watch what girls wear, how they walk, how they eat, how they interact with each other, how they sit, and how they check out each other.

Hmmm, well interacting with women seems to be the best way to learn.  During just the past 2 months with being part of a group of women for my musical, I've learned SO much just through my interactions with the other women.  Even the locker room conversations have proven to be quite informative.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 30, 2007, 12:51:56 AMI don't get hit on by guys that often, but I'm usually with my friend who is very pretty, so my initial reaction when it happens is to think they were talking to her.  So I am fairly oblivious.

I had something similar happen last October.  I was at a party with a girl I met(who later ended up becoming my girlfriend) and I found her SO attractive and we were talking to this one guy who was really hot.  He ended up choosing to end up with me and I was SO surprised (I had been on HRT for almost 9 months at that point), since I didn't consider myself to be very attractive.  Things have changed since then and I now see myself as attractive and am not very surprised anymore (yet still very flattered) when a guy hits on me.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 30, 2007, 12:51:56 AMAnd then a photographer wanted me to model for her, but I never called her number back as I don't really like how I photograph.

One thing I've discovered about being a woman is that you don't need to be knowledgeable about most aspects of being female that you would think every girl happens to know including makeup.  Don't feel ashamed to say you don't know how to do something; it won't automatically get you gender questioned.  In fact, most other women are more than happy to teach/show you how to do things.  Oh, and that seems to be the way to gain popularity among other women, which is by sharing, helping others, and being nice to each other.

As to passing, I would again say I feel no woes whatsoever about it.  I could not learn all the ins and outs so efficiently otherwise and I certainly wouldn't enjoy my life as much, so it's something i definitely appreciate.

asiangurlee:tell me about it! at my uni, EVERY girl seems shorter than me, smaller, in every way, and i feel so effing ugly and manlike... not male, but like a big oafish ugly woman that people wouldnt look at... its depressing, and im not that big! :(
R :police:

I know, I so want to be short and utterly boring like every other girl.

i dont think i could be a maud, my ego isnt big enough... ;)
R :police:

No, it isn't.

Win.

Monumental amounts of win.

*cough*

R :police:

Wow, this little topic of mine is long! Although, not so much on topic now, but still long.

Well, here's one thing I discovered recently that might be considered a woe, although it's really more of an unexpected downside to a particular situation which was only possible by passing well. 

As most of you know, I'm in my musical in stealth.  The show started last week and there were quite a few women standing around in their underwear around me.  I thought it would be great to be in this situation, but I was a bit taken back by the dysphoria which it induced.  It put me into a depressive funk for the rest of the evening.  I thought it would be cool to be able to do that since thought I was attracted to women, but it basically brought home the harsh reality of the fact that I'm still pre-op.  Now I've learned I need to avoid looking at them for this reason.  If I hadn't been in that situation due to passing well, then I wouldn't have experienced that bit of dysphoria (which always catches me by surprise and puts me in a depression).

its the one thing that makes me unhappy, that thing, its all that stands between me and a normal life in my consious mind. i feel like an imposter with it, i CAN be caught out. and im a faker :(
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 05, 2007, 03:33:07 AM
its the one thing that makes me unhappy, that thing, its all that stands between me and a normal life in my consious mind. i feel like an imposter with it, i CAN be caught out. and im a faker :(
R :police:

You are not an impostor or a faker. You are a woman. To me you are as much woman as any woman I have ever met. A penis will not make you a man and it does not make you an impostor. I am sorry you have those feelings from time to time. I guess we all do, at times.

Love always,
Elizabeth

just feels like it, my agegroup is the superficial one. late teen - young adults are all about apearance, and i feel i fail. I know im a girl, but seeing that thing makes me sick to my stomach and doubt myself.
R :police:

im not trying to spoil anything but trying to relate to the topic,

my experience of other transexuals and GIC clinics, is that there are lots of people that claim that they pass well, or that they have female this or that. I think they live in dream world, and normally have little or, no real life experience of being a woman.

When i say real life experience i mean things like standing up and talking in front of groups of people who do not know you, or applying for a job as a woman and passing in that interview as a woman. Building relationships with people as a woman and interacting with society as a woman.

Conversly, Going into a bar, and being called a woman is bloody easy. If you think you pass because you've done that, i'd be very sceptical. I always pass in bars. Its because nobody is paying you any attention. Likewise, walking through town is easy. Nobody looks at you and if they do, they're not going to call you a man anyway, why would they care?

I've met people who claim that they pass 100% and look like women, when in reality they look like men with awful dress sense. They are not in touch with reality and it makes me really sad for them. Whenever i go into the GIC clinics, i see what is essentially a group of men in dresses. Some look more male than others, but all look male to me. Some look really feminine facially, but never female facially. The whole picture, once the body is added  is completely that of a man. Others have a great body but a mans face.

I don't believe anything i hear or see from people claiming to pass on the internet. Its due to my real life experience telling me otherwise. If someone convinces me in reality, then i accept it. Otherwise, im sceptical. Maybe some of you are the 0,0001% lucky ones, but i have to trust what my eyes tell me in reality, not what people say on random anonymous internet forums.

I've yet to meet a genuinely passable transexual in a GIC clinic. I've probably met around 50 in my time.

In fact the last time i went in, there was a genetic woman sitting next to me who whispered to her husband 'the're all men aren't they!'.

dont get me wrong, im not saying im any better.. i've been 'hit on' by men on several occasions. I don't assume that this means i pass as a woman, just that on certain occasions, people may confuse me for a woman, based on my hairstyle and clothes. It always makes me scared of opening my mouth. My pass rate drops from nearly 100% to nearly 0% when i open my mouth.

As a teacher I've stood up in front of classes and been addressed as he, or him by half the class and she and her by the other half. Everytime i get called he or him, its like a knife sticking in my back, but i can't escape the way i am. I don't think i do badly for a transexual, in fact, quite the opposite, so i view with lots of suspicion when i see people saying that they pass so well.

Transitioning is not perfect. You can put on a skirt, and they'll call you a woman, but think you're a man. You can put on androgenous clothes and they'll call you a man but wonder if your a woman.

my experience is that women tend to accept me alot more than men. Non-white males are normally easier to convince than white males. The most difficult group to convince is younger white males aged 25-40. I suspect its because they are the ones who are looking most intensely for a prospective mate.

I think alot of transexuals who do not pass hide from their trueselves and take pictures of themselves where they may by accident look female, and hide out in comfortable places like this. I think its counterproductive for the transexual community because it makes us assume most pass, when in fact 99.9% do not.

Its such a difficult change from one sex to another, and i think living in denial about your strengths and weaknesses is the most difficult thing of all. I wake up one day and see a pretty woman, and the next day i see a hideous freak. Nothing changed over night, its just my perception of myself on different days.

sorry everyone but im just saying what i've seen.

Quote from: fruity on September 11, 2007, 03:38:12 AM
im not trying to spoil anything but trying to relate to the topic,

my experience of other transexuals and GIC clinics, is that there are lots of people that claim that they pass well, or that they have female this or that. I think they live in dream world, and normally have little or, no real life experience. When i say real life experience i mean standing up and talking in front of groups of people who do not know you, or applying for a job as a woman and passing in that interview as a woman.

Conversly, Going into a bar, and being called a woman is bloody easy. Its because nobody is paying you any attention. Walking through town is easy. Nobody looks at you and if they do, they're not going to call you a man anyway, why would they care?

I've met people who claim that they pass 100% and look like women, when in reality they look like men with awful dress sense. Whenever i go into the GIC clinics, i see what is essentially a group of men in dresses. Some look more male than others, but all look male. I've yet to meet a genuinely passable transexual in a GIC clinic. I've probably met over 100 in my time.

In fact the last time i went in, there was a genetic woman sitting next to me who whispered to her husband 'the're all men aren't they!'.

i've been 'hit on' by men on several occasions. I don't assume that this means i pass as a woman, just that on certain occasions, people may confuse me for a woman, based on my hairstyle and clothes. It always makes me scared of opening my mouth. My pass rate drops from nearly 100% to nearly 0% when i open my mouth.

As a teacher I've stood up in front of classes and been addressed as he, or him by half the class and she and her by the other half. Everytime i get called he or him, its like a knife sticking in my back, but i can't escape the way i am. I don't think i do badly for a transexual, in fact, quite the opposite, so i view with lots of suspicion when i see people saying that they pass so well.

Transitioning is not perfect. You can put on a skirt, and they'll call you a woman, but think you're a man. You can put on androgenous clothes and they'll call you a man but wonder if your a woman.

my experience is that women tend to accept me alot more than men. Non-white males are normally easier to convince than white males. The most difficult group to convince is younger white males aged 25-40. I suspect its because they are the ones who are looking most intensely for a prospective mate.

I think alot of transexuals hide from their true selves and take pictures of themselves where they may be called female, although the truth from what i've seen is that they always look like men in real life. I accept there may be exceptions, but i don't think they are the norm, or the rule. I think its counterproductive for the transexual community to assume most pass, when in fact 99.9% do not.

Its such a difficult change from one sex to another, and i think living in denial about your strengths and weaknesses is the most difficult thing of all. I wake up one day and see a pretty woman, and the next day i see a hideous freak. Nothing changed over night, its just my perception of myself on different days.

As usual Danielle, you put things accross very well and your observations are very accurate. I have met one passable transsexual at a U.K NHS gender clinic but unfortunitely it is quite rare. The majority do look like men in female clothes, and they wear the type of female clothes from a passed era which don't resemble any genetic female in the street. They usually pile on the make up, with beards showing and wear black skirt suits and bright pink nail varnish....it is a standard stereotype and I did wonder what relation this had to my own situation which is why I quit going to gender clinics......The U.K NHS gender clinic system is not a great example for transsexuals.   

If you work in an invironment where you have to wear a boiler suit and you pass as a female, you've got more going for you.......employment and full intergration is possibly the make or break point as to your transition.

QuoteIf less enphasis is based on GRS and more on intergration, the better...

kim, i do agree with you, my whole time at the GIC clinic is based on 40 minute sessions trying to guess the correct thing to say to make sure they sign my GRS form in 1 1/2 years time. They serve no purpose in terms of helping me with my transition.

GICs should help you integrate as a woman, improve your appearance and make you feel more confident in yourself as well as preparing you for GRS surgery. As they are they are a bunch of pretty ignorant non-transexual 'psychiatrists' who ask you stupid questions and then twist your answers to suit whatever agenda they have. You've always said that its no coincidence that the GIC service goes under as part of the mental health service, as if we were mentally ill. Its a total waste of time and tax payers money.

the whole thing is a contradiction. How can you ever let somebody in to your most intimate fears, who has the power to destroy your life (by not allowing GRS)? Its like confiding in hitler that you are really a jew..

thank god there is a private option thanks to people like russell reid etc, so at least they don't have all the power.

Quote from: fruity on September 11, 2007, 05:13:26 AM
kim, i do agree with you, my whole time at the GIC clinic is based on 40 minute sessions trying to guess the correct thing to say to make sure they sign my GRS form in 1 1/2 years time. They serve no purpose in terms of helping me with my transition.

GICs should help you integrate as a woman, improve your appearance and make you feel more confident in yourself, but as they are they are a bunch of pretty ignorant non-transexual 'psychiatrists' who ask you stupid questions and then twist your answers to suit whatever agenda they have. Its a total waste of time and tax payers money.

the whole thing is a contradiction. How can you ever let somebody in to your most intimate fears, who has the power to destroy your life (by not allowing GRS)? Its like confiding in hitler that you are really a jew..

thank god there is a private option thanks to people like russell reid etc, so at least they don't have all the power.

I think you are hoping a bit with a 1 1/2 year time scale with your GIC. My real life test was approaching it's 6th year but the London NHS GIC still refused my GRS referral. I asked them for an explanation or reason but they refused to give one....I complied with the HBSOC but they didn't, so where's the justification in that?

I've moved on since then and have found that my quality of life has now improved and so has my transition position.  It's a shame these UK NHS clinics are not set up for the benefit of the patients......the politics of how much money can be accessed from outside PCT's by stalling patients is more important to them...

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:30:09 AM

Quote from: fruity on September 11, 2007, 03:38:12 AM
im not trying to spoil anything but trying to relate to the topic,

my experience of other transexuals and GIC clinics, is that there are lots of people that claim that they pass well, or that they have female this or that. I think they live in dream world, and normally have little or, no real life experience. When i say real life experience i mean standing up and talking in front of groups of people who do not know you, or applying for a job as a woman and passing in that interview as a woman.

Conversly, Going into a bar, and being called a woman is bloody easy. Its because nobody is paying you any attention. Walking through town is easy. Nobody looks at you and if they do, they're not going to call you a man anyway, why would they care?

I've met people who claim that they pass 100% and look like women, when in reality they look like men with awful dress sense. Whenever i go into the GIC clinics, i see what is essentially a group of men in dresses. Some look more male than others, but all look male. I've yet to meet a genuinely passable transexual in a GIC clinic. I've probably met over 100 in my time.

In fact the last time i went in, there was a genetic woman sitting next to me who whispered to her husband 'the're all men aren't they!'.

i've been 'hit on' by men on several occasions. I don't assume that this means i pass as a woman, just that on certain occasions, people may confuse me for a woman, based on my hairstyle and clothes. It always makes me scared of opening my mouth. My pass rate drops from nearly 100% to nearly 0% when i open my mouth.

As a teacher I've stood up in front of classes and been addressed as he, or him by half the class and she and her by the other half. Everytime i get called he or him, its like a knife sticking in my back, but i can't escape the way i am. I don't think i do badly for a transexual, in fact, quite the opposite, so i view with lots of suspicion when i see people saying that they pass so well.

Transitioning is not perfect. You can put on a skirt, and they'll call you a woman, but think you're a man. You can put on androgenous clothes and they'll call you a man but wonder if your a woman.

my experience is that women tend to accept me alot more than men. Non-white males are normally easier to convince than white males. The most difficult group to convince is younger white males aged 25-40. I suspect its because they are the ones who are looking most intensely for a prospective mate.

I think alot of transexuals hide from their true selves and take pictures of themselves where they may be called female, although the truth from what i've seen is that they always look like men in real life. I accept there may be exceptions, but i don't think they are the norm, or the rule. I think its counterproductive for the transexual community to assume most pass, when in fact 99.9% do not.

Its such a difficult change from one sex to another, and i think living in denial about your strengths and weaknesses is the most difficult thing of all. I wake up one day and see a pretty woman, and the next day i see a hideous freak. Nothing changed over night, its just my perception of myself on different days.

As usual Danielle, you put things accross very well and your observations are very accurate. I have met one passable transsexual at a U.K NHS gender clinic but unfortunitely it is quite rare. The majority do look like men in female clothes, and they wear the type of female clothes from a passed era which don't resemble any genetic female in the street. They usually pile on the make up, with beards showing and wear black skirt suits and bright pink nail varnish....it is a standard stereotype and I did wonder what relation this had to my own situation which is why I quit going to gender clinics......The U.K NHS gender clinic system is not a great example for transsexuals.   

If you work in an invironment where you have to wear a boiler suit and you pass as a female, you've got more going for you.......employment and full intergration is possibly the make or break point as to your transition.

I'd have to agree with the both of you. It is something that I've seen over and over again. And so many trans women never socialize; I know so many that stay at home or if they do go out it's with other trans women. I don't get that. I bite my tongue so much when they are dressed horribly (when I've said something, I would hurt feelings and they'd cry "passing privilage" to me and that I don't understand them... and they are right, I don't.)

There are a lot of trans girls in this area (hey, our government covers SRS, so of course there are going to be a lot here). I know of a couple people that integrate very well -- not just talking looks, but the way the socialize and behave. Going stealth is very common for these girls, and I'd have to say I'm on that stealthy edge, but I haven't stepped over 100% because I'm still involved with helping other Trans people in my community. I live a very dual life right now.

I don't expect people on the web to think anything of me; yes, they can look at my pictures and then my profile and check out my video log on  youtube, but it isn't the same as interacting with me. I know a lot of trans people that say they pass, and blah, blah, blah -- those people live in my city, and I'm sad to say that they don't. Do I? Apparently, but I'm not self-delusional in that I'm perfect.

Yes, I socialize way outside of the GLBT community. Yes, the 96 friends in my face book are people I know and talk to regularly -- and yes, not all of them know I'm trans! (And yes, I have more than 96 friends, I keep bugging certain friends to join in the band wagon.) Yes, I go to the clubs (and it's not the gay club). Yes, I've had three jobs since I was full-time and I've applied and I've been hired as a female for each one. And yes, I've made out with very cute straight men on many occasions (and yes, I'm trying to stop doing that because I'm playing with my life here). And yes, in the last 2 months I've slept with two straight men (something I should also stop, it's even more dangerous and explaining what is between my legs isn't easy; it feels a lot like the crying game).

And is all the above true? Of course it is. But nobody in here can verify it unless they actually know me in person. So, what's the difference between me saying all of this and another person who doesn't do any of this saying all of it? The difference is that you'll never know for sure unless you actually know them. It's hard to take what is said on the net as fact. And I don't expect people will take what I say as fact.

I know of people who think that they are "all that and more" and brag on the net about how well they pass, and blah, blah, blah -- meanwhile in real life they are lonely people who hide in their apartment dressed in granny clothes they found at the thrift store.

One thing I can say for them -- at least people know off the bat and there is a degree of safety. For me it's the constant fear of being discovered by the wrong person. That one guy who tells the other guy and I'm killed. I have a lot of scared friends right now. Four months into being full-time I guy tried to rape me oust side of where I worked.. you have no idea how hard I tried to push this guy off me, because if he would have found out what was down there I could have been dead.

At least if you look like a man in a dress, you don't have to worry about getting raped as much like every other woman out there. Being a woman isn't all rainbows and butterflies, it has a very dark side to it. And when you're a t girl like me with that so called "passing privilege" the danger is much higher. What if I kissed the wrong man and he found out later? What if I brought the wrong boy home and upon finding out kills me or beats me up? What if I get raped and the rapist discovers down there isn't as expected? What if I'm outed at work and someone hates me enough to kill me because I was "tricking" everyone? At least, if you look like a man in a dress no one thinks you're fooling anyone but yourself, but people don't like to be fooled -- it just takes those couple of people who believe you "tricked" them enough for them to harm you...

Not passing 100% can have more of a benefit than you think; and passing 100% can have more of a downside then you think. Being a girl isn't what a lot of trans people think it is.



Posted on: September 11, 2007, 12:47:50 PM

---

Sorry for sounding so emo -- there's a lot of good things about being a woman and I wouldn't change who I am.

You know the human brain is a wonderful thing. I beleive it is always evolving to its surroundings.

While I do feel it is very important to pass, I don't beleive in percentages. If you are only 50% passable, and you are happy with your looks who cares. If you truly have the peace of mind your brain requires then that is a step forward. The brain is so complex, yet so impressionable.

How many of you have visioned yourself as pretty at times. I think most!!! Weather you are or not most people do see some good things they like about themselves.

There are ugly GG's and there are beautiful GG's. They to have the exact feelings that any TS might have about their looks. How many not so pretty GG's went to your prom?? They too sit at home in solitude and wonder WHY!!!

You are who you are. The secret of life is one thing!!!!! That is what you have to figure out. The one thing that makes you happy and go on with your life.

Let me add this little bit. Why do you think GG's go to plastic surgeons??? Well why!
The exact same reason that a TS might want to go. If you have the bucks you too can look as faboulous as all of those Hollywood stars out there. They are not beauties without their makup. Hell they don't even put it on themselves.

Don't be quite so hard on yourself. Nothing in this world is certain except for death. If you want something bad enough!! Trust me you will find a way. If you can think it, you can do it.

One thing for sure we are all beautiful in GODS eyes, and he is the best judge I know of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will be having my surgery soon, and will that make me a passable woman??? Only to those who see me undressed. I will still be the same on the inside. That is what counts. I will still be my sweet self, that would not hurt anyones feelings for anything in the world. We all have to find our way, and hopefully there will be some happiness along the road.

Just my take on things, and I hope I did not bore you

Deb

hey, i didnt mean offence to anyone in particular, so accept my apologies.

Based on some really good replies though it was well worth saying what i said. Im a bit of a realist and i think sometimes its so important that we really get down to the nitty gritty ->-bleeped-<- of what it is being transexual.

No offence taken with me, but we do need to help build morale here.

I may be called transsexual technicaly, but I can assure you I am a woman. Just to be perfectly clear I was a young girl before that. I can't speak for anyone else here so I will not. There are many of us with a very clear direction of what we are, and where in life we fit and, stand.

I for one want to try to help anyone here feel better about themselves. I wish that no one has to go through what I went through. Times have changed a little and the prospects for a more complete life are at reach for most. Remember all you have to do is want it bad enough to see the changes you desire. It is not easy, but with some moral support from others that have been there and done that maybe it will make it a little easier.

Deb

I know Danielle (Fruity) was speaking from a U.K point of view and the poor victorian value's of U.K Gender Clinics (which doesn't really relate to people in the U.S) but she pulled up some important issue's.....

There is a lot of closeted stuff going on and you do get a lot of Transexuals going to specialised venue's for transsexuals instead of a secular bar/ pub. Once a F to M transsexual invited me to a transsexual workshop for musicians.....the person seemed quite offended when I said I don't go to anything relating to Transsexual events etc......I just go to normal places and live a normal life...

Quote from: debisl on September 11, 2007, 04:30:44 PM
I for one want to try to help anyone here feel better about themselves. I wish that no one has to go through what I went through. Times have changed a little and the prospects for a more complete life are at reach for most. Remember all you have to do is want it bad enough to see the changes you desire. It is not easy, but with some moral support from others that have been there and done that maybe it will make it a little easier.
Deb

Thanks so much, Deb.  I couldn't agree more.  I hope people can take to heart that we all need support sometimes, and that we can make it easier for each other.

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:30:44 PM
the person seemed quite offended when I said I don't go to anything relating to Transsexual events etc......I just go to normal places and live a normal life...

I guess this is something I don't understand either.  A friend has invited me out to a big trans club this weekend.  I've never done that and have little interest in it.  I keep trying to explain that I just want to do normal things women do.  While I make no judgments, I have no desire for flag waving or big trans pep rallies.  I just want to be me.  I'll never be one who claims to pass 100%, but I am gaining confidence to go and do whatever I want to.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

QuoteI wasn't offended, so no apologies required. I just want you to know that it's YOUR nitty gritty, not everyone else's nitty gritty.

you seem pretty offended, judging by your responce. I don't speak for everyone else, but then, neither do you.

some people... jeez...

if a trans is passable, then you're not going to know it because they ARE passable. What, is she/he suddenly going to run up to you, tap you on the shoulder and say "hey, you didn't read me.. but guess what? i'm a trans too. fooled you!"

so if you can't spot that 0.1%, or whatever rate you claim, it's because they pass.

Two, if you're in a group/clinic bemoaning the appearance of all those wig-wearin', lipstick smearin' men in dresses, well, perhaps they and YOU are there for a reason, such as, getting help. Passable people aren't going to be there are they? they'll be out and about passing under your 99.9% infallible transdar.

finally, take no offense, i'm not attacking the person, but the opinion extolled as fact.

unless you grab their crotch (prior to their grs), you'll never really know if a person is trans or they have hormonal imbalance. either way, it doesn't matter, because you or me are going to read into their appearance from our own prejudices.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 12, 2007, 05:55:02 AM
Two, if you're in a group/clinic bemoaning the appearance of all those wig-wearin', lipstick smearin' men in dresses, well, perhaps they and YOU are there for a reason, such as, getting help. Passable people aren't going to be there are they? they'll be out and about passing under your 99.9% infallible transdar.

I agree.........but unfortunitely those NHS Gender Clinics are where they send people suffering from Gender Dysphoria in the U.K.......you don't know what it's like until you get there.......They are (of course) more transvestite based and best avoided if you are serious about transitioning...

send you to? its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to! :P
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 13, 2007, 11:40:36 AM
send you to? its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to! :P
R :police:

How do you mean its more grudgeingly agree to let you go to? GP's are usually not very well versed in Gender Dysphoria, I was the first case my GP had ever met.....in the U.K if you live near London your GP / PCT send you there as the first port of call.......these days the tide is gradually turning and PCT's are now aware of Charing Cross's unhealthy reputation and channeling patients elsewhere...

Danielle (Fruity) was speaking from her experiences of the U.K NHS GIC system which obviously wouldn't relate to the majority American's on this forum..

after my gp refered me, ive had 2 letters from porterbrook, and not heard since....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 15, 2007, 07:05:03 PM
after my gp refered me, ive had 2 letters from porterbrook, and not heard since....
R :police:

porterbrook, Where's that?

QuoteI agree.........but unfortunitely those NHS Gender Clinics are where they send people suffering from Gender Dysphoria in the U.K.......you don't know what it's like until you get there.......They are (of course) more transvestite based and best avoided if you are serious about transitioning...

kim, while i agree with you about the GIC's, without going to them, how are you supposed to get an approval signature for GRS? thats the only reason i go, i hate that place, and would avoid it if it were possible.

Initially, my GP wouldn't prescribe me HRT until i got approval from the GIC. When it eventually came, i'd already been on hrt for 2 years privately and buying them over the counter in foriegn countries.

Now i have to go in, listen to them arrogantly telling me how im suppose to be, as if they somehow knew what a transexual is, or how we feel.

My GIC routine is this: Smile, tell them what they want to hear, and then go home and pretend you never went there, until you have to go again in 4 months. The only time i've ever had doubts about transitioning is when i went to those centres. Not because i doubted who i was, but because they made me doubt i had the strength to do something about it.

but the problem is, where else can you get approval for GRS??

i heard of the porterbrook centre don't know much about it though. If you want to get treatment you have to annoy them until they give you it rachael. If you just disapear, they wipe you of the list and forget about you. I think they have quotas of how many people they can treat at any point in time, relating to budget funds etc.

If you show them any kind of ambiguity (spelling?), they will just get rid of you. Its a game, and you have to play it, otherwise you will end up with no help.

and when i say help, i mean signatures and letters enabling you to transition. They serve no purpose at all in terms of emotional support, or giving you the tools to make yourself look more feminine.

Posted on: September 18, 2007, 04:10:42 AM

---

if i do 10 posts can i now use messages ? what a stupid forum

If we are still on the subject of passing, I would like for all of you to look at this site below. It only fortifies what I have been trying to tell some of you about looks and passing.

There are no ugly women.

http://boortz.com/more/there_are_no_ugly_women.html

Quote from: fruity on September 18, 2007, 04:18:47 AM
My GIC routine is this: Smile, tell them what they want to hear, and then go home and pretend you never went there, until you have to go again in 4 months. The only time i've ever had doubts about transitioning is when i went to those centres. Not because i doubted who i was, but because they made me doubt i had the strength to do something about it.

I did that for nearly 7 years Danielle and it didn't get me anywhere........

Quote from: fruity on September 18, 2007, 04:18:47 AM

but the problem is, where else can you get approval for GRS??

and when i say help, i mean signatures and letters enabling you to transition. They serve no purpose at all in terms of emotional support, or giving you the tools to make yourself look more feminine.

I've done almost 5 years RLT but when I asked the London GIC for a referal for GRS they asked me to leave the clinic.....and not come back? they didn't like the idea that I wanted a physical transition i.e (GRS, ffs etc ) and not psychological mental therapy......strangley in the letter they also said I had fullfilled all the protocols in the HBSOC.....


I'll post the actual letter I got from them....it might shock a few people who are starting out and want to go through the U.K NHS system..

Quote from: Berliegh on September 18, 2007, 11:04:29 AM

I've done almost 5 years RLT but when I asked the London GIC for a referal for GRS they asked me to leave the clinic.....and not come back? they didn't like the idea that I wanted a physical transition i.e (GRS, ffs etc ) and not psychological mental therapy......strangley in the letter they also said I had fullfilled all the protocols in the HBSOC.....


I'll post the actual letter I got from them....it might shock a few people who are starting out and want to go through the U.K NHS system..

Hi Kimberley, I'm aware we are way off topic now, however I believe you said before you are going down the private route, I just wanted to ask you how one gets started on that ladder? PM me if you prefer. Louise x

porterbrook is the sheffield clinic berliegh, specialist in juvenile gid. and it seems time to pelt them with more letters... its unfortunate as sheffield wont refer local paitents anywhere else, its my only choice. *sigh* damn postcode lottery.
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 19, 2007, 08:31:50 AM
porterbrook is the sheffield clinic berliegh, specialist in juvenile gid. and it seems time to pelt them with more letters... its unfortunate as sheffield wont refer local paitents anywhere else, its my only choice. *sigh* damn postcode lottery.
R :police:

Rachael, a number of us are lobbying several parliment politicians to good effect and also contacting NHS representatives regarding these issue's and all other issue's of poor treatment of gender dysphoric patients. The NHS are aware of the problems and we should see some changes starting to happen by spring of next year.

Quote from: louise000 on September 18, 2007, 04:25:53 PM
Hi Kimberley, I'm aware we are way off topic now, however I believe you said before you are going down the private route, I just wanted to ask you how one gets started on that ladder? PM me if you prefer. Louise x

Louise, I'm still trying to access treatment through the NHS route but without the London GIC or Gender Clinics in general. Just working with my PCT, GP and local Psychologist. So far it's working out as a better way of doing things....

My AA sponsor (that is like a mentor) is working with me to learn how to chase the creeps away. I have two men stalking me now. Yes, it is a real curse when one passes so well. I pray every night that I will wake up ugly.

I mean even old rock stars are hitting on me now. John Sebastian who played at Woodstock (he is in the movie) hit on me at the Emmy Lou Harris concert. I hit back but I got all tied tongue which seems to always happen when I meet someone I like. Woe is me!

you know mellissa, bragging about how well one passes is against forum rules, and is out of place tbh...
anyways, not all stalkers go after beauty...
R :police:

I simply couldn't do the conventions because I have crowdphobia. <--- invented that word, I am not certain there is a proper word for having fear of crowds.

Also after I started full time and was still working my hands were full just doing my work thing in the new role as female. In the early part of my transitioning I had a friends three children that I had is my care for  two years. It was kind of nice going shopping and stuff with the children and going to PTA meetings. But then I am no stranger when it comes to child rearing.

Cindy

"Hee, hee hee," not a bad idea,  "Miss Doubtfire" Children wanted.  ;D

I'm just a busy body that needs to be constantly on the move is all. I run five message boards and I have an interview for work at a social club for for those with GID right here in Surrey BC. How Ironic huh? after working as a social worker for twenty years with people with various psychological disorders and addictions  of one type or another, I finally come around full circle to work with the very people I started with.

Cindy 

Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:44:26 AM
you know mellissa, bragging about how well one passes is against forum rules, and is out of place tbh...
anyways, not all stalkers go after beauty...
R :police:

It was obviously tongue in cheek.  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? and the title of this thread is "The woes of passing well."

I mean the part about praying I'd wake up ugly should have given you a clue. But the reality is I am beautiful, in physical attributes, certainly in the top 5% compared to women my age but more so, in my presence. I am not very photogenic and I haven't taken any pictures lately that flatter me.

As far as passing, I am beyond that, my post was a parody of the people who are always telling us how well they pass which is obviously a projection that they have doubts about it.

Passing in San Francisco is different from passing anywhere else. The great majority of the women here would be clocked in a New York minute in San Francisco.

QuoteAs far as passing, I am beyond that, my post was a parody of the people who are always telling us how well they pass which is obviously a projection that they have doubts about it.

mellisa, insecurities often come out as arrogance. i completely agree with you here, good post - Im always wary of people telling me how good they are at something. Invariably its because they are hiding something to the contrary.

i've met lots of ts's and transvestites who claim to be totally passable, yet, when you meet them, they are far from that. Pictures are editable, i wouldn't trust anybodies who i never met in reality, or wasn't modest about themselves.

unless somebody you can provide like, 20 pictures all taken standing up straight from every facial angle and in every different light, i won't judge if they are passable or not. Besides, why should they care what i think?

we need to get away from this obsession with pictures and photographs. I know its because we are insecure about how the world see us, but its totally conterproductive.

the world will see what they see, no picture or photograph is going to change that.

i'd never post a picture of myself on here. TS's are not real people, we are a very small minority obviously with a screw lose in our head, and we are a wierd group on the edge of society. Would you trust our judgement?

so whether other transexuals think you pass or not is irrelevant. The real world, is who will tell you the answer to that, and to know that, you have to get up of your bum and do something about it, instead of posting pictures on internet forums.  ;D

Quote from: melissa90299 on October 17, 2007, 01:40:50 PM

It was obviously tongue in cheek.  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? and the title of this thread is "The woes of passing well."

I mean the part about praying I'd wake up ugly should have given you a clue. But the reality is I am beautiful, in physical attributes, certainly in the top 5% compared to women my age but more so, in my presence. I am not very photogenic and I haven't taken any pictures lately that flatter me.

As far as passing, I am beyond that, my post was a parody of the people who are always telling us how well they pass which is obviously a projection that they have doubts about it.

Passing in San Francisco is different from passing anywhere else. The great majority of the women here would be clocked in a New York minute in San Francisco.

so your every post is a parody then? or am i missing something?

oh. and dont be so judgemental, there are global sanfransiscos, and i know you have to be pretty damn obviously trans to get read in any of them...
R :police:

Hi fruity

Odd, maybe during the early part after I started full time I may have had the odd person call me a him or he whatever. But for a lot of years now I do not recall having been addressed as anything else then the gender I present and I am certainly not a beauty queen. I am just a 62 year old retired social worker. I have been all over the Eastern US and Canada and never ran into any problems of being identified as anything else then Miss, Mrs or mam. I have recently moved to Vancouver BC and have not had any problems here either. As for the voice, my voice is kind of half way between and has always been like that so I never had a problem with the voice on the telephone or in person I was on many occasions addressed as Mam, even  before I had started transitioning.

Tell ya something about appearances as well. Yes there are some TS that don't look feminine at all, but I certainly wouldn't have the heart to tell them so to their face. Maybe try to help the person to pass better if I can and if they wish.

Now I have also known a few women, GG's that were not all that feminine looking, more androgynous then female looking, not unlike some androgynous people I seen in this group here. As I was also androgynous looking for so many years after I passed the age of 20. I have also seen some pretty big women out there as well that could pass as men if they were dressed for the part.

So if androgynous looking there is probably a good chance no one will even notice of pay attention to you.

Cindy 

Even in San-Francisco, if you walk downtown or north-beach I don't think you'd get recognized unless looking obviously like a TS (I lived in those neighborhood and never saw any TS that were obvious.
Its like walking in the gay village in Montreal and saying you can spot all TS... Well Duh... Those that stay around there are probably the least passable there is (same thing in Castro/Tenderloin/Mission, Civic center and some parts of SOMA).

Tink lives in the bay area and I'm betting she's pretty much undistinguishable from a GG.

EXACTLY..... you see those who dont pass, or wear the wrong clothing.
ill bet 90% of the transpeople you pass in the street you read as natal female.
R :police:

Quote from: Sophia on July 23, 2007, 01:16:54 PM

Quote from: gothique11 on July 23, 2007, 12:59:46 PM
As for the ideal woman: it's a myth. There is no ideal woman -- be who you are and proud. I know plenty of women who don't fit the "ideal" but are quite amazing. The real ideal woman is who you are inside, not who you are on the outside.

That doesn't mean look homely, or not wear make up, or whatever. Make up is fun. I wear eyeliner. I dye my hair. I dress in my own style. It's great. But it doesn't substitute for who I am inside. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed, but don't forget, some girls like not wearing makeup and like looking frumpy or homely.

:D

My wife is a great, GREAT example of this.  She really does not like wearing makeup.  While she is not frumpy or homely looking, I would never call her a girly girl.  She'll even admit she's not into all that  I think that when I'm dolled up, I'm prettier than she is, and that doesn't make any more woman than she is.  Physically she wins by a mile.  A big help to beginning gender transitioners is realizing that there IS NO IDEA woman or man, as far as looks go.  The only people that would really disagree with this are those that work for Cosmopolitan magazine.  ;)

Aeron

i deffinately think something the trans community likes to forget is, that there ARE markers that women all fit between, and markers all men fit between, not steriotypes, but just facts.

If you are anywhere within the female range, you're a woman tbh. and vice versa. closer to the edges sure, it can get dubious. but in the middle or your 'average' woman or man, you're pretty much home free.
R >:D

Hi Rachael hon, nice to see you again.

Cindy

It sounds harsh, I know, but get used to it. Any illusions that being accepted as female in societies eyes was like living in the land of cookies and hug should be long gone and it's time to accept and live by those new life boundaries that "come with the territory"

I realized this almost immediately and I think it is why I'm not freaking out now about being stealth.


But as a side not, don't feel pressured and let your self get forced into stereotypes and behavior boxes. Feel free to be yourself, but just be aware of yourself and your environment.

Passing well is hard for me because of things I can't do. For instance, I stood around in the men's room when I had to pee even though a urinal was open. The other guys noticed and thought it was really strange. I guess they just assumed I was shy, but I just felt abnormal. A guy with a penis could have just walked up and took a leak.

And no, I still don't want to use a STP device that looks like a penis. It's just plain weird to pee through a penis-shaped tool.

Quote from: Kiera on August 03, 2008, 06:37:23 PM

Quote from: Elwood on August 03, 2008, 06:08:15 PM
Passing well is hard for me because of things I can't do. For instance, I stood around in the men's room when I had to pee even though a urinal was open.

;D ;D ;D Elwood, not "odd" at all if waiting to take "a dump"!  ;D ;D ;D

I think I would have left, waited outside until a few come out, then checked availability again rather than just stand there and watch 'em all probably miss . . . (always check the floor to see what yer standing in first!)  ;D ;D ;D

Yeah, but it was obvious because I was joking with one of the other (trans) guys on the way in and exclaimed that I had to take a piss.  :-X

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on August 03, 2008, 06:05:41 PM
It sounds harsh, I know, but get used to it. Any illusions that being accepted as female in societies eyes was like living in the land of cookies and hug should be long gone and it's time to accept and live by those new life boundaries that "come with the territory"

I realized this almost immediately and I think it is why I'm not freaking out now about being stealth.


But as a side not, don't feel pressured and let your self get forced into stereotypes and behavior boxes. Feel free to be yourself, but just be aware of yourself and your environment.

Quite true.

men have boundries.
Women have boundries.
These are not steriotypes, the trans community loves calling everything a stereotype. Sorry, they are just rules. Live by them, get along fine, dont want to live by them? well dye your hair rainbow colours and go live in the hills... society has rules.

Im with Gracie. I find living stealth retardedly easy, i dont DO anything to be stealth, then again, i dont do anything to jepordise that. I live by the rules for a 20yo female in college because thier just ways of behaving to get along. Its not about gender. And if you pass as well as half of you claim, you should realise, the real world does not give a crap about gender. It just IS.

So stop crying and rejoicing and finding major 'problems' in passing. Some of you just dont seem happy.
R >:D

Quote from: Rachael on August 04, 2008, 03:25:33 AMThese are not sterotypes, the trans community loves calling everything a stereotype. Sorry, they are just rules. Live by them, get along fine, dont want to live by them? well dye your hair rainbow colours and go live in the hills... society has rules....

And expectations. When you dress or act "out of place", expect to get noticed! The thing that gets people "read" is being "out of place", whether by dress, makeup, voice, or actions. If you "fit" nobody notices; if you don't fit, just about everybody will be taking a long hard look to figure out why. It is not society's "rules" as much as human beings are heard animals and anything that looks out of place is instinctually seen as a threat.

Having the benefit of being young and naive at transition (1970's) I KNEW I didn't know "the rules" and paid attention to what the other girls were doing and became "middle of the road average". It made assimilation easy. A few years down the road, being firmly established and accepted I was able to push the boundaries and pick up a couple of "unconventional interests" with nothing more than bemused glances.

I wish I was passable. Then, I could comment on the woes of passing, but I don't pass.

Even through I'm pre-everything and everyone seems to think that my face has a great amount of potential, I doubt I'll be passable without a great amount of ffs... Even then, my body is a little big, although not unbearably so.

I'm 5' 9". I weigh 168 pounds. I'm just f**king ugly.

Dunno... you have that 'butch dyke' look atm, deffinately middle of the road.... sod ffs

The hardest part for me is that I'm only 5'3". So I look like a kid. But at least I look male...  :-\

Quote from: Elwood on August 03, 2008, 06:08:15 PM
Passing well is hard for me because of things I can't do. For instance, I stood around in the men's room when I had to pee even though a urinal was open. The other guys noticed and thought it was really strange. I guess they just assumed I was shy, but I just felt abnormal. A guy with a penis could have just walked up and took a leak.

And no, I still don't want to use a STP device that looks like a penis. It's just plain weird to pee through a penis-shaped tool.

Sit down on the toilet like you have to do something else ;)  Then, walk out all manly and not wash your hands.  You'll pass.   ;D

Quote from: Aeron on August 04, 2008, 06:22:46 PM

Quote from: Elwood on August 03, 2008, 06:08:15 PM
Passing well is hard for me because of things I can't do. For instance, I stood around in the men's room when I had to pee even though a urinal was open. The other guys noticed and thought it was really strange. I guess they just assumed I was shy, but I just felt abnormal. A guy with a penis could have just walked up and took a leak.

And no, I still don't want to use a STP device that looks like a penis. It's just plain weird to pee through a penis-shaped tool.

Sit down on the toilet like you have to do something else ;)  Then, walk out all manly and not wash your hands.  You'll pass.   ;D

ewww :P

I second that.

Cindy

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2008, 07:02:12 PM

Quote from: Aeron on August 04, 2008, 06:22:46 PM

Quote from: Elwood on August 03, 2008, 06:08:15 PMPassing well is hard for me because of things I can't do. For instance, I stood around in the men's room when I had to pee even though a urinal was open. The other guys noticed and thought it was really strange. I guess they just assumed I was shy, but I just felt abnormal. A guy with a penis could have just walked up and took a leak.

And no, I still don't want to use a STP device that looks like a penis. It's just plain weird to pee through a penis-shaped tool.

Sit down on the toilet like you have to do something else ;)  Then, walk out all manly and not wash your hands.  You'll pass.   ;D

ewww :P

I actually did notice that a lot of guys don't wash their hands. I do most of the time... but I wash my hands a lot. I don't like it when they feel clammy or dirty or anything.

Hi Elwood hon, I'm all of 5'3" tall too. Maybe we should get married and live happily ever after.
Do you have any rich relatives that own a castle in Europe by the way.

Cindy

Knight in shining armor the lady says, woooo hoooo na don't need the crown jewels, I'll settle for a ride on the knight in shining armors black stallion, draped with a beautiful emblazoned blanket and with the eyes that light up in the dark, leaving a thin cloud of dust arising from the dirt trail we follow up into the mountains. All that can be heard now breaking the silence is the eerie howl of a lone wolf somewhere in the higher elevations of the mountains. "hee, hee. " Gee I miss writing these little story lines. Good night folks.

Cindy