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Wow, look at me actually starting a topic. That doesn't happen very often. ;) Anyway, so since starting a full dose of estrogen last month, I have overall been feeling a lot better. I have been a lot more mentally and emotionally stable, and just in general more happy and confident. I even stopped taking St. John's Wort, which I had been taking to help stabilize my mood, because I felt like I just didn't need it anymore. And so far I've been right. There have been a few times where I have just been in a bad mood for no apparent reason, but they usually don't last more than a day, if that.

But I've also been wondering about the other ways estrogen might be affecting me mentally. Specifically, last week I spent a the day with my cousin and her friends, and I found myself having fun and enjoying myself and getting along really well with the entirely female group. I guess that shouldn't be too strange, except that I had really never done anything like this before. For my entire life (or most of it at least) I always had trouble socializing, with girls, or anyone else for that matter. I can never recall being as comfortable in any social situation as I was last week. I have to wonder, is this just because I am being myself and I'm not constantly being concerned with the way others are perceiving me? Or is it because the estrogen I am taking is actually starting to feminize my thought patterns to the point where the way my brain processes socialization is changing? I guess in the end it doesn't really matter, since I am happy with the result either way, but it's still interesting to think about. Does anyone else think that taking estrogen caused their thought patterns to become more feminine, or is it just a natural thing that starts to happen when you decide to stop fighting your feminine side and just let it take over?

Yes indeed estrogen has made my mind a lot more girly...
a lot more emotional would be the better word.

It took three or four months to tell what was really changing and what was just the joy of being on HRT finally.

I am emotional. Way more emotional. Chatty. Sometimes scatterbrained.

It is pretty easy to tell how estrogen effects the mind when you get a shot every two weeks. The ups and downs are unmistakable.

I don't know if I'm a lot more emotional or not... It's hard to explain. I still don't really get overwhelmed by my emotions, but I do notice the way I process emotions has changed. I'm a lot more empathetic than I was before, so I notice and respond to other people's emotions more than I used to. But I was expecting emotional changes. What I wasn't expecting was such a dramatic change in how I relate to people that even I'm surprised by how girly I sound sometimes. :o

haha, even though i'm not on estrogen, it sure as hell looks like i am becuz i'm an emotional wreck on certain days of the month if thats how it is xD

Quote from: Tori on May 06, 2014, 11:26:29 PMIt is pretty easy to tell how estrogen effects the mind when you get a shot every two weeks. The ups and downs are unmistakable.

I get my estrogen by injection, too, and even though I get an injection every week (on Tuesdays), I still feel the ups and downs. I'm really glad I don't have to deal with another week on top of what I already feel on like Mondays.

i dont think i can ever do the shots though i heard they work faster than the pill o.o

I almost threw up and passed out last time I had my blood taken for lab work...

Other than that, I feel driven way more by emotion than logic, am quick to get sassy with people, and assume everything my partner says is somehow asserting that I'm fat. I don't know if that's more girly, but I definitely feel like I have chronic PMS.

Also, I hated chocolate before. Now I $#%ing love it, and crave it whenever I start crying (which is all the time nowadays- no wonder I'm getting fat).

HAHA! rocky road ice cream is my friend on any day of the week xD i even started crying during movies o.o in a sense my body has already accepted my brain chemistry and just switched on its own. makes HRT a lot more easier for me xD just need to get that pesky letter though -.-

One of the beautiful changes is the mental changes. Our estrogen brain receptors has been starved by Testosterone until we start HRT and have the estrogen into our systems. This will be euphoric if you have a female mind. Its this mental changes of an estrogen driven brain that facinates me. I have changed in my empathy,and perception for the better. Its a long journey but one so exciting and full of new experiences. I dont know who the evolving me will be mentally but I'm happy to be on the journey.

Quote from: Debussy on May 07, 2014, 01:36:03 AM
I almost threw up and passed out last time I had my blood taken for lab work...

Other than that, I feel driven way more by emotion than logic, am quick to get sassy with people, and assume everything my partner says is somehow asserting that I'm fat. I don't know if that's more girly, but I definitely feel like I have chronic PMS.

Also, I hated chocolate before. Now I $#%ing love it, and crave it whenever I start crying (which is all the time nowadays- no wonder I'm getting fat).

haha, that pesky letter though is eluding my grasps. i love dark chocolate. was craving strawberries with dark chocolate with a nice hot bath earlier o.o

My mind was girly already before HRT, I think that estrogen mostly just let me accept my body easier, and thus my mind was allowed to freely think the right thoughts.

One thing that I specifically link to HRT, is my body and mind's natural reactions to being aroused. Once the hormones start pumping through my system, Its feels exactly like I have all different equipment, even though it isn't even really there. Being aroused has always brought my mind and thoughts into an altered state, but now that state is completely different, and comes along with a whole different set of thought patterns and emotions.

I believe it does make you more girly... Hormones effect a lot more than just your body.. it affects your mind too

female Hormones give you the desire to reproduce, attraction and make some of us bitchy too. I feel I like also think like a woman, more emotional than logic.. and I love romantic comedies now. I even cry far more easier now.

I get my shot once every two weeks,  and after the shot for about a day or so I am very moody and emotional.. although I am learning to control it... 3 years in.. I am even getting broody..

In the beginning after my first two shots, I even got morning sickness.. but i got use to the estrogen following in my veins.

My cis-female roommate says to me.. Noleen I cant believe how much a girl you are.. I always smile when she says that... but she is also very girly..

Umm, yes. 

My therapist told me that not only does it satisfy your estrogen receptors, it sort of helps wire your brain more that direction if you had such an inclination.

And I'm so glad it did.  I LOVE being a girl.

Quote from: noleen111 on May 07, 2014, 02:42:52 AM
I believe it does make you more girly... Hormones effect a lot more than just your body.. it affects your mind too

female Hormones give you the desire to reproduce, attraction and make some of us bitchy too. I feel I like also think like a woman, more emotional than logic.. and I love romantic comedies now. I even cry far more easier now.

I get my shot once every two weeks,  and after the shot for about a day or so I am very moody and emotional.. although I am learning to control it... 3 years in.. I am even getting broody..

In the beginning after my first two shots, I even got morning sickness.. but i got use to the estrogen following in my veins.

My cis-female roommate says to me.. Noleen I cant believe how much a girl you are.. I always smile when she says that... but she is also very girly..

So does that mean the nausea I experienced every morning for a while was morning sickness, not just pills on an empty stomach? I almost threw up several times! (I have good control over my gag reflex, don't ask)
Because that would make me ecstatic!

Also, I've had many dreams at night that I got pregnant, and it was the most euphoric feeling ever. All day my thoughts would revolve around getting pregnant, wanting to bear a child...

Quote from: Debussy on May 07, 2014, 02:48:22 AM
So does that mean the nausea I experienced every morning for a while was morning sickness, not just pills on an empty stomach? I almost threw up several times! (I have good control over my gag reflex, don't ask)
Because that would make me ecstatic!

Also, I've had many dreams at night that I got pregnant, and it was the most euphoric feeling ever. All day my thoughts would revolve around getting pregnant, wanting to bear a child...

have those dreams every night. even pop out my stomach sometimes thinking i'm pregnant. i even giggle at the thought every time. i told my friend and she just hit the floor laughing

Quote from: Debussy on May 07, 2014, 02:48:22 AM
Also, I've had many dreams at night that I got pregnant, and it was the most euphoric feeling ever. All day my thoughts would revolve around getting pregnant, wanting to bear a child...

I know how you feel, i also would love to be able to bear a child. I would love to be pregnant.. the feeling of a child growing inside me must be amazing.. I get extremely broody at times..

Right now im going through what I call my "2nd Round with Puberty", so my mind is as girly as ever... 14 year old girly to be precise lol. I react to things in ways i would never have reacted in the past, or I get way more emotional about something these days. A lot of movies make me cry happy or sad tears; my love for my wife is that of a innocent infatuation (even though without it, i still love her endlessly) and it feels like I'm back in Middle/High School.

I told my wife the other day "why would anyone wanna be male? Everything is so much more emotionally colorful now... love feels like a gentle breeze and sex is like this amazing connection of energy... before it was just bland straight-forwardness and a quick release"

I'm sure maybe its just because i was never really male and hated living it lol but Estrogen hasn't just made me girly, its turned me into a borderline diva lol. There was an episode of House where a rat started eating the lip of a guy who had a stroke, and I was like "*shudder* omg.. thats so disgusting".... back then i wouldv'e NEVER reacted that way, and it wasnt even forced, its just how it came out of me... or sometimes when my friend tells me something crazy that happened or something bad that happened, i literally gasp and it effects me in a way that would have never been back when i was male, I actually empathize (and sometimes sympathize) more than i ever did before.

I laugh like a girl, I smile at things that never use to effect me, I act and react like a girl... hell, i even complain or argue like a girl lol. Its incredible ~ I love every minute of it, and the more natural it is, the more satisfying it feels. Before hormones i would just force myself to behave female... now its not even a choice lol.

I think my favorite thing is that now I have this amazing feeling when i sit on my balcony during mid-day while it rains, and just sit and listen to nature or drink a cup of tea

This estrogen stuff is where it's at hehe.

Quote from: Miyuki on May 06, 2014, 11:08:04 PM
Does anyone else think that taking estrogen caused their thought patterns to become more feminine, or is it just a natural thing that starts to happen when you decide to stop fighting your feminine side and just let it take over?

That is a really good question and I would love to know the answer to it.  I am certainly a lot more relaxed and at ease in social situations (TBH, all situations really) than I was.  I am not sure whether it is due to the chemistry of my body being what it should be, changes to the way my brain is processing things, no longer not doing things because that it "not what men do" or something else entirely.  But yeah, nice observation and I entirely agree with you that it can be a thing that happens and that it pervades pretty much everything.

Rosie

I always feel a bit left out in this aspect because hrt really didn't change how I think and/or feel.  I'm still very much the same person.  Sure, there are subtle changes (sense of smell, color perception, libido changes, and occasional mood swings etc) but they aren't radically different.  I'm still the same crazy overly emotional and sensitive person I've always been.  And the way I carry myself and my interests are all pretty much the same. Therefore, I can't really say that I feel more girly or different in the grand scheme of things. However, I do feel more at piece with my gender when I was once ashamed.  Like I'm glad to be a girl when in the past I thought of myself as a freak for being trans.  Maybe I am a bit of a freak, but I'm a freak who happens to be a woman, and that's okay.  That's a little freeing despite my many issues with coming to terms with myself.

Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on May 07, 2014, 10:40:38 AM
That is a really good question and I would love to know the answer to it.  I am certainly a lot more relaxed and at ease in social situations (TBH, all situations really) than I was.  I am not sure whether it is due to the chemistry of my body being what it should be, changes to the way my brain is processing things, no longer not doing things because that it "not what men do" or something else entirely.  But yeah, nice observation and I entirely agree with you that it can be a thing that happens and that it pervades pretty much everything.

Thinking about it just makes me constantly wonder where the hormones end and the real me begins. But it's not like the estrogen is doing anything to me that I don't like, so either way I guess. :)

Quote from: learningtolive on May 07, 2014, 12:43:20 PM
I always feel a bit left out in this aspect because hrt really didn't change how I think and/or feel.  I'm still very much the same person.  Sure, there are subtle changes (sense of smell, color perception, libido changes, and occasional mood swings etc) but they aren't radically different.  I'm still the same crazy overly emotional and sensitive person I've always been.  And the way I carry myself and my interests are all pretty much the same. Therefore, I can't really say that I feel more girly or different in the grand scheme of things. However, I do feel more at piece with my gender when I was once ashamed.  Like I'm glad to be a girl when in the past I thought of myself as a freak for being trans.  Maybe I am a bit of a freak, but I'm a freak who happens to be a woman, and that's okay.  That's a little freeing despite my many issues with coming to terms with myself.

I think you're really lucky that you managed to keep your feminine side intact despite having to live as male for most of your life. In my case I was a lot more emotional and sensitive as a child, but when I hit puberty I started to repress that side of myself. Now I'd give pretty much anything to go back to being that way, though I think I'm getting closer and closer as time passes by.

IMO estrogen doesn't make anyone more "girly".  For transsexual women it unlocks your true potential.  Potential that's been locked inside a testosterone vault for years and maybe even decades.  You have been released from that prison and are now free to fully express yourself.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 07, 2014, 12:43:20 PM
I always feel a bit left out in this aspect because hrt really didn't change how I think and/or feel.  I'm still very much the same person.  Sure, there are subtle changes (sense of smell, color perception, libido changes, and occasional mood swings etc) but they aren't radically different.  I'm still the same crazy overly emotional and sensitive person I've always been.  And the way I carry myself and my interests are all pretty much the same. Therefore, I can't really say that I feel more girly or different in the grand scheme of things. However, I do feel more at piece with my gender when I was once ashamed.  Like I'm glad to be a girl when in the past I thought of myself as a freak for being trans.  Maybe I am a bit of a freak, but I'm a freak who happens to be a woman, and that's okay.  That's a little freeing despite my many issues with coming to terms with myself.

Diddo!  I didn't even get emotional until I came out, like six mouths on hormones.
I think in my case, I didn't get a lot of testosterone growing up anyways, so I've kinda already had a girl's mind.  I still need to be tested, but I think I'm ether XXY or Klinefelter's.

Oh my god yes,  It changes everything allows us to grow into ourselves.  Or at least thats what my expierance has been.   One of the biggest moments i remember that really caught me off guard was hanging with one of my guy friends and storming away saying Men or such ->-bleeped-<-s.  That's only one instance there have been so many more like going from green to pink as my favorite color.  Don't get me wrong still love green but theres some irony in the fact that Pink is literally the absence of green and that it was like out of no where that i would choose pink before green.  I think estrogen effects us at that level because for trans people going through the puberty of the opposite gender that we are just leaves us paused at that state,  never growing and developing completely into ourselves.  Hormones play a huge role in the development of boy's into men and girls into women and for those who are trans the incorrect hormones leave us hanging in the balance.  So when we do seek transition with the correct hormones we finally grow into the women/men we were meant to be.  For me,  the parallels with female puberty were so apparent,  I noticed i even started acting like a teenager again for a time.  My ambitions changed,  my passions changed, I started looking at men in a light i didn't expect even being bisexual already there was something different.  I reacted differently to situations became upset when my friends would well be guys and talk about girls the way guys do.  It is different for everyone though, I think we all vary so greatly in the amount we repressed verse the amount we embraced.  I myself repressed a lot and for that i noticed a lot but there were things i knew that were simply just surfacing because i was finally accepting of who i am, and then there was a lot of things that were completely new both in thought and action I believe was the effect of brain chemistry changing.   Some things very "girly" and some things quite to the contrary but non the less cherished.     I apologize for the grammar been drinking a little =)

Quote from: Emily King on May 08, 2014, 03:19:14 AM
Diddo!  I didn't even get emotional until I came out, like six mouths on hormones.
I think in my case, I didn't get a lot of testosterone growing up anyways, so I've kinda already had a girl's mind.  I still need to be tested, but I think I'm ether XXY or Klinefelter's.

That's interesting.  To be honest, I don't think my personality has anything to do with the possible sex of my brain.  I think it's more a response to my environment factored in with some biological aspects.  I don't know.   Who knows if I'd be the same person if everything was different in my life other than my body.   It's something I'll never know, but don't care about either way.  I am who I am.

Quote from: Miyuki on May 07, 2014, 02:44:57 PM
Thinking about it just makes me constantly wonder where the hormones end and the real me begins. But it's not like the estrogen is doing anything to me that I don't like, so either way I guess. :)

I think you're really lucky that you managed to keep your feminine side intact despite having to live as male for most of your life. In my case I was a lot more emotional and sensitive as a child, but when I hit puberty I started to repress that side of myself. Now I'd give pretty much anything to go back to being that way, though I think I'm getting closer and closer as time passes by.

I'm glad it's doing that for you  I actually feel you all are lucky because I really wished that estrogen would have given me more mental benefits like reducing anxiety and depression.  I hear that so much about that, so it was something I was hoping would happen. 

Quote from: Beyond on May 08, 2014, 02:28:39 AM
IMO estrogen doesn't make anyone more "girly".  For transsexual women it unlocks your true potential.  Potential that's been locked inside a testosterone vault for years and maybe even decades.  You have been released from that prison and are now free to fully express yourself.

This pretty much says it all.

I am 2 months on full dose hrt and I didn'tnoticed any psychological changes. I am noticing physical and love it  but I realy don't feel emotionally different :-(

Quote from: Beyond on May 08, 2014, 02:28:39 AM
IMO estrogen doesn't make anyone more "girly".  For transsexual women it unlocks your true potential.  Potential that's been locked inside a testosterone vault for years and maybe even decades.  You have been released from that prison and are now free to fully express yourself.

That is exactly the expression that I use when explaining how hormones have helped me to others. These feelings have always been there, estrogen was merely the key to unlock them. :)

For me the hrt didn't make me more mentally girly. That was already there but I kept it repressed because I was expected to be a man. After I became unwilling and or unable to hide it anymore I pushed for hrt which has made me feel better about myself and far happier.

I was just noticing this effect today,after being on estrogen for over 2 months.Before,I often had trouble with conversation due to the fact I couldn't think fast enough to express what I wanted to say...foggy thinking sort of. Now,I have noticed that over the last couple months,my thinking as far as vocabulary and conversation has been speeding up immensely!
I can talk so fast now without making any mistakes.My mind feels so clear & sharp.I especially like having conversations with women...I find them more interesting & stimulating than men.
Before HRT,people used to complain that I didn't talk enough,but now I often "talk their heads off" & they have to find ways to wrap things up with me & get going! lol

it changed my brain my sense of smell my taste buds but i feel like a woman :)

Quote from: Tori on May 06, 2014, 11:26:29 PM

It is pretty easy to tell how estrogen effects the mind when you get a shot every two weeks. The ups and downs are unmistakable.

Or not.  I also do injections, but I don't really feel any difference as my levels run down.  I never did.

I'm not discounting your experience, but it's not universal.  After I started HRT, it took a few months before I really noticed an increased sense of well being.  Before that, all I felt was sore nipples, and even that wasn't cyclic.

Rosa brain has change quite a bit on estrogen yes. But it good change. Complicated and confusing yes but that ok. Just getting use to the constant crying and overwhelming feelings of guilt and sadness have been difficult. But other than that its good.

It's funny that someone feels more clear, because I feel more foggy - scatterbrained was a good word...something like, "Oh really? You're having a hard time at work? I'm so sor...omg that wind feels amazing, do you think it will storm later?" I completely forget whatever point I was trying to make and get lost in some sensory experience or new pattern of thought.

If someone else is talking I'll often find myself a million miles away, absentmindedly playing with my hair or curled up in my chair like 5 minutes later, completely lost from the conversation. I make very few cogent points these days and it makes me feel really dumb in a not great way.

*deletes multiple paragraphs of rambling*

Also, that...I ramble a lot when I feel comfortable now. I don't know how to exit the situation gracefully so I just get self-conscious really bad when I realize I'm doing it.

Also probalby because im so young. My brain feels like it did when i was only 14-16 like puberty brain. It so scatter and disorganized. I remeber 18 everything finally felt right now 19 1 year on hrt and my brain felt like it regressed grrr lol.

Quote from: Ltl89 on May 07, 2014, 12:43:20 PM
I always feel a bit left out in this aspect because hrt really didn't change how I think and/or feel.  I'm still very much the same person.  Sure, there are subtle changes (sense of smell, color perception, libido changes, and occasional mood swings etc) but they aren't radically different.  I'm still the same crazy overly emotional and sensitive person I've always been.  And the way I carry myself and my interests are all pretty much the same. Therefore, I can't really say that I feel more girly or different in the grand scheme of things. However, I do feel more at piece with my gender when I was once ashamed.  Like I'm glad to be a girl when in the past I thought of myself as a freak for being trans.  Maybe I am a bit of a freak, but I'm a freak who happens to be a woman, and that's okay.  That's a little freeing despite my many issues with coming to terms with myself.

Took until the bottom of the image before finding a post I related to. Minus the colour and scent perception that's about it.

The rest that I've taken from this thread is terrible stereotypes of 'lady brains' making their owners love chocolate and pink, become unable to think straight or focus during conversations, play with hair instead of listening to people, and become a bit 'dumb'. None of the women I know are like this I must say.

recent mri studies seem to hint towards neurophysiological adaptations in specific areas of the brain ; how, significant, the consequences of the hrt itself are, etc. is vague and mostly subjectively smokescreened by placebo effects and preemptive expectations

I know it's a necro, but this thread is pretty interesting, there's a disconnect in the expectations of girls transitioning then, and now. Many stereotypes are no longer in effect that were then... I'm just about to start HRT, maybe another month at most. I'll report any changes here. It'll be hard to separate changes from transition and from brain chemicals. It's worth mentioning that I've seen at least one doctor mentioning it may have an effect on ADD, which perked my interest. It may be that it helps in some brains, but makes it worse I'm others, accounting for the reports of sudden onset scatterbrain.

I do fear acute girl brain with HRT since I'm not out everywhere yet, but honestly I've already got that, I just repress it to the point of near paralysis. I also can't look at that without turning it into a pun. A cute girl brain that is... I can't imagine there is no effect, I tend to believe girls who mention that men start smelling really nice, a change in the way pheromones are interpreted seems right. Suddenly being interested in romantic comedies and that sort of thing I'm skeptical of, but could be a result of increased emotional range, which I believe... I got over my fear of becoming a different person though, now I'm afraid of staying the same person, :P

Been on HRT...cyproterone acetate & estradiol valerate for over 2 months now,and have been very chatty lately.My mind is so much sharper while on estrogen and I can talk very quickly in a conversation now without much effort.However,I have been having problems with others thinking that I am too chatty cause I talk so much and seem so happy all the time.Guess they think I must be high on something...in fact I am,but its on estrogen.I am trying to calm down a bit now. lol
Has anyone else had this difficulty with their brains being rewired on estrogen and becoming too chatty?

Quote from: Daniellekai on May 07, 2017, 12:00:14 PM
I know it's a necro, but this thread is pretty interesting, there's a disconnect in the expectations of girls transitioning then, and now. Many stereotypes are no longer in effect that were then... I'm just about to start HRT, maybe another month at most. I'll report any changes here. It'll be hard to separate changes from transition and from brain chemicals. It's worth mentioning that I've seen at least one doctor mentioning it may have an effect on ADD, which perked my interest. It may be that it helps in some brains, but makes it worse I'm others, accounting for the reports of sudden onset scatterbrain.

I do fear acute girl brain with HRT since I'm not out everywhere yet, but honestly I've already got that, I just repress it to the point of near paralysis. I also can't look at that without turning it into a pun. A cute girl brain that is... I can't imagine there is no effect, I tend to believe girls who mention that men start smelling really nice, a change in the way pheromones are interpreted seems right. Suddenly being interested in romantic comedies and that sort of thing I'm skeptical of, but could be a result of increased emotional range, which I believe... I got over my fear of becoming a different person though, now I'm afraid of staying the same person, :P

Some romcoms are good. Many are dreadful. I can't say this process has destroyed my taste in any significant way. Nor have I reached a point where someone who has trusted me to speak to me about a troubling aspect of their life takes a backseat when the weather changes or because I'd rather stroke my hair and admire a pink colour chart.

Some men do smell good in a powerful sexual way, but they always did. For instance I guy I saw for a few dates years ago and who is tall dark and handsome just never quite did it for me (and that's why) still doesn't, and that's still why. We became friends instead.

I'm skeptical of increased emotional range too to be honest. It may be that those who report it are just suddenly freed to be themselves. I know a few men who are happy as men who have no less emotional range than the general expectation of a female, nor any problem expressing it, and quite a few women who have rather less.

Quote from: Laurie on May 07, 2017, 06:59:01 PM
If you like reading studies. this blog has compiles a long list of studies (with links) on the brain and hormonal effect on it in transgender people.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

  Laurie

I have never yet read any respected peer reviewed literature that suggests 'girly brain' results in being unable to focus on basic conversational and social skills, or has an inherent link with any particular part of the colour spectrum.

Nor does it bestow an enhanced enjoyment of bridal magazines, or a fundamental desire to eat cheap chocolate in front of Pretty Woman for the 72nd time you've seen it. Not if those things aren't already part of what appeals to your personality for a whole host of reasons.

Quote from: Laurie on May 07, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
Fine Alex,

  I thought you might be interested in the information provided by the link. Obviously I was mistaken.
I'll delete the link.

My apologies.
  Laurie

You're not mistaken. I opened the link. Some fascinating reading, but nothing that can be deduced from the brief synopses provided to those without the passwords to access the full studies.

Some of them do not back up what is being said in this thread, and is not actually particularly helpful to trans people - more than a few conclude that far from being a binary locked in a binary, there is something uniquely displaced in the brains of self reported trans subjects compared to the control groups.

I said what I said, and I stand by it. Gender stereotypes are ridiculous and they are damaging. They don't just smother trans children, they smother everyone. They take no account of the huge numbers (between a quarter and a third I've read) of people of either sex who do not conform to gender stereotypical roles, and yet are neither transsexual or homosexual.

These are stereotypes that have cost everyone and the world we live in A LOT of potential.

*gglz* This chat getting super passive agressive lets chill people. <3 love and hugs - Rosa

Quote from: roseyfox on May 07, 2017, 07:46:54 PM
*gglz* This chat getting super passive agressive lets chill people. <3 love and hugs - Rosa

Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.

Quote from: alex82 on May 07, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.

Those types of posts were from a few years ago, granted I don't think the stereotypes have changed THAT much, but I do note a distinct change in how often the girl = ditzy argument is mentioned in 2017, that's clearly some sexist bull, but still it doesn't mean there's no difference in how men vs women think, or that it isn't tied to hormonal balance... You also can't just discount their experience as patently false, it may be that they have trouble focusing on estrogen, but I suspect that's more on how their particular brain interacts with it than any general effect, and I believe a general fogginess is a side effect of certain anti-androgens that nowadays are avoided for that reason among others.  (in reference, I know some potential causes of ADD may be treated with estrogen! I can't find any scientific paper or evidence other than at least one endocrinologist (not mine, though I haven't asked either) mentioning that their patients have seen improvement of their symptoms (IE: focus better) on HRT)

As I said though, I don't think these stereotypes have persisted among trans people in 2017, other than men smelling nicer, I've seen that mentioned a number of times, and basically made note of it as a possible real effect of MTF HRT.  They aren't saying that their sexual preference has changed because of it though, on the contrary I've seen the caveat that they still like women and would never consider bedding a male because of other reasons, that is... Just because men smell differently now doesn't mean that they want to bed them, or that it makes them view them as sexier, it's just different. I've not seen FTMs noting the inverse (women smelling better/different), but that may be because I've also seen it said that the sense of smell improves for MTFs, it may degrade slightly for FTMs. (A quick google around would seem to indicate that they tend to go the other way if they experience any change at all, if they liked women before T, they find they start to like men more after T, I did find a few mentioning that they "stayed straight" in their transition (went from liking men to liking women), but they seem to be fewer in number)
So it seems that's probably just down to sense of smell getting better for MTFs, smelling what they couldn't before.

What I mean about "acute girl brain" is more about subconscious tells, like my motions, posture, and the like. I've noted at a couple support meetings MTFs sort of moving their feet while legs crossed like women do, compound that with having mentioned it to my cisgender (ex)girlfriend, and she said she was never aware she was doing it, and I don't do that currently (even when sitting in feminine posture purposely), it may very well be something caused by how the sex hormones interact in the brain, it affects almost the entire body, I can't imagine there are no changes to thought process (conscious and otherwise).

That said, I'm still very skeptical of any sudden changes in interests, it seems more likely that they're now just more free to pursue interests they like better rather than the hormones having changed what they like (that's too big of a change, I think it would be far more subtle). I don't particularly like shopping now, but that's only because I can't shop in the right part of the store yet I think. That isn't a "female activity" either, plenty of men enjoy shopping, buy nice clothes, etc. A not unlikable interest will always lose out to your favorites, but if your favorites are behind a stereotype gender wall you might not partake, and instead do the thing that is not unlikable (like how some trans folk do hunting and fishing before transition, and after they start transitioning they note that while they don't like them any less, they partake far less often, a case of "better things to do")

I did notice some fuzziness early on. I suspect that we, and the teenagers the trope is based upon, are just having a bit of trouble adjusting to the higher levels of estrogen and it sorts out soon enough. Not to mention minor functional differences. I've seen the same thing happen to trans men. As to interests, I know that I shied away from feminine things as if they were a cliff when I was in denial. Male versions of things like clothes and shoes held no interest. They still don't.

Quote from: Debussy on May 07, 2014, 01:36:03 AM
I almost threw up and passed out last time I had my blood taken for lab work...

Other than that, I feel driven way more by emotion than logic, am quick to get sassy with people, and assume everything my partner says is somehow asserting that I'm fat. I don't know if that's more girly, but I definitely feel like I have chronic PMS.

Also, I hated chocolate before. Now I $#%ing love it, and crave it whenever I start crying (which is all the time nowadays- no wonder I'm getting fat).

Girl I'm here at the office trying not to burst out laughing, this sounds so cute and hilarious and definitely so girly.

Stereotypes totally frustrate me as well. Although, being able to express oneself using facets of what have been stereotypes is certainly valid and understandable. Many people waited a very long time to be able to express their authentic gender, so gosh if you want to girlie up, mentally, socially etc, go for it. I just cringe when some of these things are often unintentionally reinforcing sexism. So i hope they don't do that.

Having said that my brain changed. I am easier going and have less anxiety about life's setbacks. Men do smell better to me and what was a pansexual attraction to men has shifted down the spectrum to where my primary focus romantically (fantasy and interest) are guys. So i am not sure that i buy the argument that sexual preference cannot be hormonally affected.

I've seen a lot of changes. Are they "girly"? That is open to interpretation.

Quote from: alex82 on May 07, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
Sure, good call.

But really? "Girly brain makes me a bit dumb and I can't stop eating chocolate and I haven't been able to listen to anyone finishing a sentence or a story because I'm a slave to my hormones and I have a ponytail to play with, and I can't park my car because lingerie is so pretty and OMG that man who just walked across my rear view mirror smells like sex even though he's probably an ->-bleeped-<- because men usually are." Really? Come on.

These stereotypes have damaged millions if not billions of people in multiple societies and continue to do so. Using out of context studies on whether marmosets with vaginas have a slightly marked preference for looking at the genital area of dolls or playing with toy cars, dropped in by social scientists of unknown success looking for a conclusion to their hypothesis, is doing nobody any favours, trans or cis, male or female.

Sheesh. I'm sorry if some people's experience upsets you, or if you think that experience is damaging to feminism, but is the vitriol really necessary?

Yes. Yes estrogen does make your thought process more girly.

Just not in any way I would have expected before transition.

It is very hard to explain to someone who has not experienced it, but combined with the dropping of T, it is a new mind altering hormone effecting how you process certain inputs.

Hormones are weird, man.

Medically speaking, if you notice any changes in your thinking before at least several months on HRT, you are either jonesing on your decision to take them or experiencing placebo effect.  There is no chance whatsoever that hormonally induced brain remodeling accounts noticeable differences in thought or emotional content in the first few months.  If you feel great one month in I am very happy for you.  So did I.  It feels good to be doing something that you believe to be in your best interests long term.  Beyond that, your brain is going to have to marinate for quite a while in its new sauce before it takes on any significant amount of flavor.

I probably did not see significant mental changes other than loss of depression and anxiety until about a year, but those were of course very big deals and that stuff happened pretty quick.

I think we often speak of the placebo effect as though it were inferior and not "real", but it is very real. Anything that can get your brain to start producing the right chemicals in the right levels, is very much a successful medical intervention.

Quote from: IdontEven on May 08, 2017, 08:26:17 PM
Sheesh. I'm sorry if some people's experience upsets you, or if you think that experience is damaging to feminism, but is the vitriol really necessary?

Nothing I said was vitriolic. I was fair and inclusive to everyone of any type while remaining impartial. I also expressed interest in and engaged with the link provided. Intellectual disagreement is not vitriol.

I went out of of my way to explain that hackneyed and damaging stereotypes are helpful to nobody no matter their circumstances.

Upsets me? Not really. Upsets the world and the potential within it - undoubtedly. If you are going to use some academic studies, then expect to be able to discuss them on their academic merit, instead of deleting them in a huff because they are questioned in part and as a wider backdrop, rather than profusely accepted without rigour or even the relevant passwords to access them all fully.

Let's be clear, here. I posted no studies, nor did I delete any. I only posted my experience, which you mocked, along with everyone else who experienced similar things.

Let's not assume we know what either party feels. It tends to escalate minor quibbles quickly when we do.

Text is imperfect for conveying tone.

So many arguments stem from mistakenly reading a different tone into a post than intended.

In the grand scheme we are all just talking shop here. We aren't particularly well  equipped to rule who is right or wrong. Especially when they speak from their own perspective and experience.