Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, this has caused some division among me and some of my dearest friends. So, I just want to explain where I'm coming from with an analogy.

It's generally accepted that trans women are more marginalized than trans men, right?

Okay, so I'm having a conversation with a trans woman. And she's explaining her experiences of being discriminated against. So I chime in and talk about how it's not that way where I live. And go on about how I have trans women friends who didn't go through that. Hell, I even have a trans girlfriend and she didn't go through that!

But honestly, how the hell do I know that if I'm a trans man? How do I know what it's like for my trans female friends? Even my girlfriend? I don't. Just because they don't talk about it or act like everything's ok - doesn't say anything about the level of discrimination in my area. Even if they personally don't experience it and I could prove that for a fact (which I can't). It doesn't mean others in my area aren't going through it right now.

Ok, I'm white. Just because I had black friends doesn't mean I know what they went through in my community. They never talked about it. Even if I had black boy or girl friend, doesn't mean I'd know whether or not they were experiencing discrimination.
If you ask me, racism wasn't a problem in my community. I'm sure if you asked a black person from my area, they'd disagree.

Anyway, I'd like us to stop the anecdotes and the 'my friends, girlfriends' whatever. Because if you weren't recognized as a member of the marginalized community in question, how do you really know? I can tell you my black friends or lovers didn't experience discrimination, but how the hell would I know that? Even if I asked, how do I know they'd even share something like that?

I'd just like some respect. You know, that those of us born to marginalized communities know what the hell we're talking about.

Hi FA,
It is good to see you. 

I, for one, don't believe for a minute that you are disingenuous, and I can assure anyone who questions you, that you have done more personal exploration and honest reflection than anyone that I know of on these forums.  I don't always agree with you, but I always respect your thoughts and honor your integrity.

Best,
Julie

I agree, and another thing is, these kinds of prejudices are systemic, so it could be affecting your life, negatively, without you even necessarily knowing about.

For instance, back when I was living as a boy, I must have applied for a million jobs, and even though I had good references, at the time my presentation was highly feminine and it aalways went the same way. I'd submit the application...i'd call back about it and be told to come in at such and such time. I'd come in and talk to the manager and the convo always went like "alright miss, what was your name, again?"..."oh, it was Seth (last nme)"..."Beth.."..."no, no. Seth. S-E-T-H". Then i'd end up with the obbligatory "right, well we're reviewing applications right now" yada, yada...and never get a callback.

Point is, these things and views of certain groups are ingrained into our society. So, really, until you melt away seamlessly into your identity as a woman, you'll always dealwith it on some level. And even if you do, there's still sexim. But, yeah, for racial minorities, unpassable transpeople etc it's always going to be a battle against peoples bigotry.

It is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

Quote from: JenIt is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

It sure does. And the sad part is that the people who make these comments are missing something important: the possibility that they might actually learn something.

It's beyond invalidating. It's belittling and hurtful.

Quote from: Jen on May 07, 2014, 03:25:54 PM
It is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

I would never say it doesn't happen to trans women because I know it does. But as far as my transition has gone up to this point it hasn't been that bad. But I'm more fortunate than a lot if I was not able to blend as well as I have I might not have been so lucky. I do know people personally who have been harassed and I truly feel for them.   

Quote from: Tysilio on May 07, 2014, 03:34:35 PM

Quote from: JenIt is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

It sure does. And the sad part is that the people who make these comments are missing something important: the possibility that they might actually learn something.

It's beyond invalidating. It's belittling and hurtful.

Exactly. I feel like there's a kind of glorifying of the female experience here. When really, there's no conversation about gender - no real conversation - that can omit the fact females have always (throughout remembered time) held a lower status. And there seems to be a kind of denial here of that.

Oh, I don't deny it, not for a second.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Honestly, I lived much of my life as a female. But when I try to talk about it or the problems females in general go through, I get a ton of resistance. And I don't get it. I thought this would be the place.

And, ok. I'm pissed off at being born female and the way I was treated. Not just cause I'm a guy, but because I'm a human. I think anyone would be. But I increasingly get the idea on here that:

a) I should just shut up

b) no one believes me because their friend/girlfriend/aunt's girlfriend supposedly didn't go through it

c) they don't see it in their world, so it's not happening


How am I supposed to talk about my life? My past is not a guy's past. However much I may try to frame it to be.

From my point of view, this happens everytime I talk about my past. And I get that a lot of you would have rather experienced being a little girl than a little boy. That doesn't mean it doesn't absolutely suck. For a little trans boy or a cis girl.

You all talk about your past being bullied and beat up freely on here. Yet nobody wants to hear my experience. Always a ton of resistance. Why is that?

Quote from: defective snowflake on May 07, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
In all honestly, it just seems like you want us all to feel bad for wanting to be or feeling like women.

Oh no. Not at all.

It's difficult. I mean, it may be different for trans women. But for me, there's always this worry, this guilt. I have left a marginalized state for a non marginalized state. Even though I have always felt male, this - is part of my legacy. I mean, I can make a zillion arguments on how I wasn't really 'raised female'. But it'd be bull->-bleeped-<-. Doesn't matter how much a tomboy I was.

And I think sometimes trans women on here minimize what assigned women go through. And that's invalidating to us.

People basically suck.  Not everyone does, mind you, but there are far too many defective people in this world.   Most don't even have a clue about how defective they really are and the most defective of all also tend to have the loudest voices.  The thing about privilege is that those who have it wish to maintain it, whether consciously so or not, and they will continue to do so at the expense of others, thus marginilization and discrimination.

Our experiences are all unique, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I don't know what it's really like to be anyone other than myself.  This is partly why I'm here.  I want to know what everyone else had to go through- the good, bad and ugly.  It's nice to know I'm not the only one who had to grapple with a brain/body mismatch and the ensuing fallout.

So please, FA, don't ever shut up.  Let it all out.  I love hearing your take on things, BTW.  And please don't ever think I don't want to hear you or that I would ever try to invalidate you. 

Life is a battle and we all end up with scars.   We heal together.

Quote from: Jill F on May 07, 2014, 04:37:19 PM
People basically suck.  Not everyone does, mind you, but there are far too many defective people in this world.   Most don't even have a clue about how defective they really are and the most defective of all also tend to have the loudest voices.  The thing about privilege is that those who have it wish to maintain it, whether consciously so or not, and they will continue to do so at the expense of others, thus marginilization and discrimination.

Our experiences are all unique, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I don't know what it's really like to be anyone other than myself.  This is partly why I'm here.  I want to know what everyone else had to go through- the good, bad and ugly.  It's nice to know I'm not the only one who had to grapple with a brain/body mismatch and the ensuing fallout.

So please, FA, don't ever shut up.  Let it all out.  I love hearing your take on things, BTW.  And please don't ever think I don't want to hear you or that I would ever try to invalidate you. 

Life is a battle and we all end up with scars.   We heal together.

Thanks hon.

Honestly for me it does feel like no matter how long I've been here or how much I've contributed - nobody really wants to hear my story. especially if it has anything to do with gender inequality.

I mean, I know many of you are female and have only dreamed of being female. But it's honestly not that great being born into it. Whether you're female brained or not.

If people here would just acknowledge that, we'd probably all get along.  :P

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 03:42:55 PM
Exactly. I feel like there's a kind of glorifying of the female experience here. When really, there's no conversation about gender - no real conversation - that can omit the fact females have always (throughout remembered time) held a lower status. And there seems to be a kind of denial here of that.

Oh trust me I'm not in denial about it. I think a lot of that is coming from those early in transition who are not yet living full time. But I've experienced first hand what it's like to be treated like your less capable than men.  :-\

I find it so strange that you are met with so much resistance here, because actually I find things you say on this subject to be right in line with what I have observed and even experienced of how females are treated in this world.  I find your comments to be insightful and relevant to my life and actually super helpful.  I would like to visit this universe everybody seems to be from where women are treated so well, and always accepted as equals by men.  It sounds quite wonderful.

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 04:32:42 PM
Oh no. Not at all.

It's difficult. I mean, it may be different for trans women. But for me, there's always this worry, this guilt. I have left a marginalized state for a non marginalized state. Even though I have always felt male, this - is part of my legacy. I mean, I can make a zillion arguments on how I wasn't really 'raised female'. But it'd be bull->-bleeped-<-. Doesn't matter how much a tomboy I was.

And I think sometimes trans women on here minimize what assigned women go through. And that's invalidating to us.

I think a big issue is that some of those things that made you and other assigned females feel objectified, used and marginalized can actually be a little validating for MFT at times. So yes, it will tend to be seen differently by them and though they may not mean to, their acceptance and at times even welcoming of it may well feel invalidating to you and others. Let's face it, we're very much different groups of people under the same umbrella here. There are going to be these issues of conflict between mtf, ftm and even the non-gender, androgynes and the rest of the crowd seeking shelter under the umbrella. The best that can really hoped for would be an understanding that discussion be gentle, not accusational towards groups of people.


Anyway, I had put myself up for deletion, but wanted to say that one thing and now I am out. I can't deal with this stuff and other stuff currently going on in my life and since its a lot harder to escape my real life...

Quote from: Jen on May 07, 2014, 04:52:13 PM
I find it so strange that you are met with so much resistance here, because actually I find things you say on this subject to be right in line with what I have observed and even experienced of how females are treated in this world.  I find your comments to be insightful and relevant to my life and actually super helpful.  I would like to visit this universe everybody seems to be from where women are treated so well, and always accepted as equals by men.  It sounds quite wonderful.

Yep. Well, I think it's an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people. And for many men. I mean, most men are probably horrified by the thought. Most men are good.

But for all of recorded history, women have been subjugated and held to a lesser status. Yeah, ok, women have rights now. In westernized countries. But so do Blacks. And yet, racism is still very much a thing. Even with a Black president.

I don't expect anyone not born female to understand. But I would hope they would try. And not just assume because their friend's sister's girlfriend didn't go through whatever that I didn't. Or ignore or dismiss what I went through. Honestly, there does seem an appropriation and boldness of some trans women. I would never, ever comment on a Black person's experience. Yet, trans women seem to feel free to comment on an assigned girl's experience.

Male privilege is real.  I experienced it, and sad to say I accepted that it was normal.  I hope I didn't subjugate or otherwise demean ciswomen, but I probably did. The socialization is real and pervasive.  That is one of the things I really appreciate about you FA.  You have better vision than most, of the reality of being female vs the reality of being male.  I am still getting used to how I am perceived by men, and for that matter by women too.  Seems a lot of people believe my IQ slipped a bit, and I no longer understand complexity as well.  Sometimes I smile, sometimes I am offended.  What seems really weird to me is that the people in my life haven't changed for the most part, but how I am perceived sure has.  Sometimes it is lonely, I'm not really a part of the sisterhood yet (at least with cis women), but I am definitely no longer part of the male extent.  I don't really fit in real well except perhaps here. But then I never fit in real well before either.  :laugh:

Julie

Firstly I would like to apologise on behalfe of some newly descovered failings of mine. I saw what I best describ as "the start of some negativety" and I percieved this to be a complete miss understanding of what you was trying to say. And My first thought was this looks like its going to get blown out of praportion, so I started to make a post hopfully redefining and providing a prohapns more understandable clarification on what you was trying to say.

But mydevice is slow and each time there was more posts to read when I clicked post.

I then saw you mention that you felt as if nobody wanted to hear what you had to say, so I added more to state that I was. And then more and more. And then browser closed. So now I see this thread and I'm going to just type conserning your opinions and some light shed on them from my perspective about what you have told us about yours, if that's ok.

I was still a bit conserned about what you said about feeling egnored and I realised that I've not seen that many post of yours, yet you have as many as you do. I also noticed that I've seen more posts of someone with less than a 100. *nd then boom eye opener although I've know you identify as M what I didn't think about was what that M means for you. It means that the reason I don't see so many post of your is because well I frequent the MtF boards and general. But oh I'm so silly of course I'm not going to see much of what you post because I don't go to the FtM boards (been twice I think). And then I noticed that your an admine here, this alarmed me because I notice the rank of most poeple.

So sorry for not being as all inclusive as thought myself to be. But realising that even in a seperate board on the same forum, I still didn't know what it was like for you in their. 4o this even on such a small scale is the ideal representation of what you ment when you said, but I don't know that because it wasn't like that here. And also by choosing prominantly to visit the MtF board am I not in some way by not visiting the FtM board in soome way diminishing its voice. I feel realy ashamed by this to be honest, I know its not what I was intending, but either way I can't help but feel guilty for it.

And in responce to minimilising the oppresed exsperience of asinged woman. Yes I agree it is definately done, but I don't think on purpose. What your gettiing at is how can I describ it hmmmmm...... Ok no offence anyone, actually this next bit is more about relavations on my own behavour so.

Trans have a lower social standing than asigned woman, and asinged woman have a lower scocial standing than asigned men. But. Because both asinged men and woman have a higher social standing that trans, by focusing on this that both asigned men anf woman have higher standings takes some focus away from the reality that asigned woman still have a lower standing than man.

Thanks for teaching me somthing about myself today. Ill try and be bettert.
I too am in some way guilty of this. So sorry for my self centerd counter productive, hypocritical behaviour, I will try and be better in the future.

Not to invalidate your experiences or anything Nero, but this problem has been here since at least when I joined Susan's. Susan's has a sexism problem. And has had that problem for years.

But then, our society has a sexism problem, so what is the surprise? You are expecting trans people to be progressive and aware of under-privileged groups in our society. You are expecting us to be above the average. And that just isn't the case. It isn't part of our culture.

I would also add that there is kind of a bleak history of trans women being excluded from cis women spaces on the grounds that we don't experience the same trauma et al, due to not being assigned female--stuff like women's shelters or clinics. Instead the stats indicate that we are the most vulnerable group of women in our society on every measure: from income to homelessness to abuse to HIV infection rates. So, ya. You'll get push back even from someone like me depending on where you step with the assigned woman stuff. Yes, we have some privilege pre-transition, but all in all it doesn't amount to ->-bleeped-<- statistically.

So when we say that it would have been better for us to have been born as cis girls? Ya, that's kind of the truth. Because there are worse things than being a cis girl, and being a trans girl is one of them. Hell, being a trans anything is worse.

But the people saying sexism is over? They just don't know what they are talking about. The plural of anecdote is not data.

FA : Well, if it helps, in other places I have gotten HUGE pushback to any implication (much less when I outright state it!) that I benefited from male privilege when I was a guy. Other trans women telling me my experience is impossible, I'm transphobic, etc. because I believe that privilege is in large part predicated on how *other people* treat you, and when people saw a man, they accorded me a man's privilege. (Ironically, I will also have cis men telling me their girlfriend's mother's cousin's best friend didn't experience whatever sexist moment I just described happening to me, and so I must be lying.) I think a lot of the discussions about privilege and our pasts get incredibly fraught, because so many people outside of trans circles use those pasts to prove that we're not really the gender we say we are and so people *in* trans circles get jumpy about admitting that they were ever treated differently lest it be used as a weapon against them.

Plus I agree with the idea that sexism *for a time* can be kind of validating for a trans woman, even if it's also awful at the same time. I remember feeling guilty that I was *glad* to have gotten street harassment, because it meant that someone perceived me as a woman and one "attractive enough to be worth harassing." I'm enough of a feminist to know that's a horrible train of thought... but that doesn't quash the little glimmer of triumph that went along with the feminist anger. So my experiences with sexism early in transition were qualitatively different from yours, even though we were both seen/treated as women for a portion of our lives. Interestingly, the longer I'm post-transition, the more my experience begins to *approach* that of many cis women I know - the more that faint sense of validation erodes, replaced by the frustration and irritation of being on the receiving end of casual sexism.

I will hypothesize this. For anyone who has lived life on both sides of the aisle to NOT recognize that there are distinct differences between the two, probably have not lived at least one of those lives in the real world.

I probably shouldn't be responding to this but anyway. Moving on.

FA, I've been watching you for a little while now and it seems to me like you have an opinion, or story as you said, you'd like to tell and have people listen to you. Only sometimes you say something offensive (whether aware of it or not) and people get hurt and then you push and push and push.

I see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

You are definitely not alone in this FA

Although it would be virtually impossible for me to fully understand another person's perspective on the subject at hand (I have not lived their life)
I can empathize with you and others

I am fairly certain that many of us know what it is like to feel marginalized in some way, I know I do

I have had to cope with feeling marginalized, picked on, ridiculed, etc. with various verbal and physical abuses most of my life - Heck I've even been shot at on occasion

It didn't seem to matter where I went, home, school, church and so forth, there always seemed to be someone and/or even a group of people at the ready to pompously and disrespectfully insult, humiliate and ridicule me for whatever reason they deemed as an excuse to be abusive towards me

It still goes on, people that feel they need to buck and bunk everyone and everything while parading themselves about, nothing new about that

Just know that you are well loved and respected

Hope you get to feeling better soon

Hugs

V M

->-bleeped-<- it. ->-bleeped-<- it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 12:21:49 AM
<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

Honestly FA/Nero it sounds like you really need to let go of your past. What's done is done let it go. Yes you was labeled a female at birth but your a man now it's time to put it behind you. Were all effected by being trans but you either put it behind you or let it tear you apart. And btw you may wish it but I most certainly don't want you dead. Your death won't solve a thing but staying and fighting this will don't let it consume you.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 12:21:49 AM
<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

My best friend hasn't spoken to me since finding out I am trans.  Someone I have known since I was 7.  I decided it was time to find a new best friend as that one wasn't worth the effort, a position that is still open.  I don't wish you were dead FA, and seeing as I am older, uglier and more opinionated than you my wish trumps yours ;).

Rosie

QuoteI see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

Frank, to put this as politely as I can, I think you're missing the point here. Did you read the thread that prompted FA to start this one (http://"https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,164492.0.html")?

I think what FA is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a way we can better show support and respect for each other. If someone shares something about their experience, it's a matter of basic courtesy to take that experience at face value, and if it doesn't conform to their own beliefs, to see that as an opportunity to learn rather than saying (or even implying) that they didn't really experience it. Telling them that they should "get over" their feelings and refrain from bringing them up (and because they're a downer for other people, no less!) is about as non-supportive as possible. If you haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their blisters.

Quote from: FrankSometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

I sort of thought that this particular section is for all transsexuals. You may want to rethink this comment.

FA, I definitely don't wish you were dead. I've only just met you, and I kinda like you.

Thanks everyone.

I don't think people realize they do this. But everytime I say anything about sexism etc, there's a chorus of people going on about how it's not like that where they are/their friend's brother's sister... etc.

I don't understand the reason for doing that. And I don't want to upset anyone. But it's very difficult for me. And I really don't want to invalidate anyone or offend anybody. But when I'm talking about going through stuff as a little girl, and people who don't have that experience immediately start giving anecdotes about how it's not like that for their brother's friend's sister...
Well, it's hurtful. It feels to me like if a white person started talking about how racism wasn't a problem in their town or that their brother's girlfriend's sister is black and didn't go through that, etc.

So, I get hurt by these casual comments, and everyone hates me for being hurt.
And I don't think people realize this, but one of the parts that hurts is the kind of appropriation feeling of it. And I just don't get it. I mean, I'm not going to chime in to say it's wasn't like that for my friend's sister's brother if a trans woman is talking about growing up male. Yet people here do this all the time the second I try to talk about anything regarding women's issues.

I've been working on my past these past few months. And a lot of you have helped a lot. Believe it or not, just talking about it here has helped a lot more than the class I'm taking on it. But part of my past that I'm trying to heal involves growing up female. And all the little hurts from that. It's separate from trans stuff. And there's a lot of resentment and bitterness over that. Because I believe it is harmful to all women to grow up in a world where their kind has since the beginning of time been regarded as less. And to be basically prepped for a lesser role, a backseat role in millions of little ways growing up. No matter how subtle or unseen. Sure, things are getting better. But when I was a little girl, they weren't that great.

Awwwe. Poor FA. This whole thing is breaking my heart. *hugs* :(

people are just caught up in themselves...

Quote from: Tysilio on May 08, 2014, 07:05:15 AM

QuoteI see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

Frank, to put this as politely as I can, I think you're missing the point here. Did you read the thread that prompted FA to start this one (http://"https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,164492.0.html")?

I think what FA is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a way we can better show support and respect for each other. If someone shares something about their experience, it's a matter of basic courtesy to take that experience at face value, and if it doesn't conform to their own beliefs, to see that as an opportunity to learn rather than saying (or even implying) that they didn't really experience it. Telling them that they should "get over" their feelings and refrain from bringing them up (and because they're a downer for other people, no less!) is about as non-supportive as possible. If you haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their blisters.

Quote from: FrankSometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

I sort of thought that this particular section is for all transsexuals. You may want to rethink this comment.

FA, I definitely don't wish you were dead. I've only just met you, and I kinda like you.

Thanks Ty.

I think maybe one thing that might be causing misunderstanding is me talking about things with the trans women here. Well, I've been here many years, and have always gravitated to the women's side. Part of this is probably because there were very few guys here when I arrived. Like I was one of maybe 3-5 regular guy posters when I came.
And also, one reason I'm still here is because the ladies here fill a hole for me. The gaping wound of not having my sisters anymore and not having any female friends.

This is the first time that the ladies and I have been divided on something (well not all of you). And that's probably part of why I get so hurt by it. To newer people, it may look like I'm barking up the wrong tree trying to get support from the mtf side. But this is where I have always gotten support.

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 07:31:14 AM
Awwwe. Poor FA. This whole thing is breaking my heart. *hugs* :(

people are just caught up in themselves...

Thanks sweetie.

I feel awful. I hate arguing with my friends here. I hate it so much I got drunk last night.

I also think this issue is bigger than just me. I suspect this feeling of hurt is part of what's behind some radfems being angry. Because sometimes trans women can be dismissive about this kind of thing without realizing it. I don't think anyone here has meant to be hurtful. And I feel awful because sometimes when I'm hurt, I hurt back without realizing it. But that's what been behind this when I've ended up arguing on here the past month or so - needing to heal things and feeling hurt and dismissed even if nobody intended to do so.

But again, this is a larger issue. The vast majority here either have, do, or will belong to the category of 'woman'. Even if they never identified as such but were (or are) seen by the world as belonging to that category. That is something we all have in common. Women's issues are OUR issues. We need to be able to talk about this stuff.

My experience is different to most here. And different to most cis women's. For one thing, I now have a perspective that cis women will never have. They can't see the difference like I can now. And I'm upset about it now in a way I wasn't while living as a woman. It's odd that I was actually pretty sexist in my former life to the point of being disgusted at seeing female cops and judges.  :P But living as male has somehow turned me feminist. Go figure.  :laugh:

Anyway, Tysilio is right. Maybe some good or understanding will come of this... latest blow up from me. We can support each other better by not being dismissive. I mean, if someone is talking about stuff that bothers them, stuff they went through - and you don't have a dog in the fight - Support their dog.

I just.. don't ..  understand some of the reactons here..

I feel terrible for you and am sorry this is happening.  i don't see how there can even be an excuse. :(

I remember where you once said something about "being stuffed in a dress". It wasn't my experience but that doesn't mean your experience wasn't real. I better understood how you felt because you shared. I hope you continue to share your experiences as I have learnt from them and from others.

You can't teach if you die.

Quote from: Jen on May 08, 2014, 08:57:31 AM
I just.. don't ..  understand some of the reactons here..

I feel terrible for you and am sorry this is happening.  i don't see how there can even be an excuse. :(

Thanks sweetie.

I think a good step would be people realizing that just because they don't see something doesn't mean it's not happening. I don't think many women talk about sexism on a daily basis. Or many people for that matter. So just because you didn't see little girls getting marginalized doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because your sister/mother/daughter/wife/ friend seems ok and has a good life doesn't mean she doesn't experience what I'm talking about. Most people don't talk about this stuff.

And if you see or know a woman who's very successful and doesn't seem to have any of these problems - think about how that is more a credit to the woman in question than an indication these things aren't real. I can almost guarantee that woman has had to fight twice as hard to get where she is than she would if she were a man.

Anyway, I see a lot of these kinds of anecdotes. And it's kind of like somebody saying racism is no longer a problem. 'Racism? What do you mean? I mean, we've got Obama!'

QuoteI've been here many years, and have always gravitated to the women's side. Part of this is probably because there were very few guys here when I arrived. Like I was one of maybe 3-5 regular guy posters when I came.

It makes sense to me. One of the things I really like about this forum is that it's not segregated -- I've noticed (hard not to) that there are way more ladies than guys here, but it's great that folks jump in and talk to each other regardless of how (or whether) they identify. It's nice not to feel constrained to post only in the ftm forums.

I've learned that it's a good thing for me to engage with people who aren't just like me, and I've made some really surprising friendships online. There's so much divisiveness in meatspace -- the less it's replicated here, the better.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 12:21:49 AM
<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

I don't hon. I would definately miss you if you were gone. :'(

But I do sort of know what you are talking about because I felt I had my butt chewed on here a while back because I don't have the time to start a group in my area by someone that thought that I should. Yeah it kind of hurt, made me feel about an inch tall and actually brought tears to my eyes because to me it felt like the person thought I was talking the talk but not walking the walk. It made me feel invalidated about myself even. Yes my feelings were hurt but I just really don't get mad anymore and calmy felt I had to respond to what my hectic life was like at the time. I think the thread just died out after that.

People are different, experiences are unique and no two of us are the same or have the exact same experience. All of our experiences in my opinion are valid and all experiences can be learned from, hopefully.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 08, 2014, 09:17:36 AM
I remember where you once said something about "being stuffed in a dress". It wasn't my experience but that doesn't mean your experience wasn't real. I better understood how you felt because you shared. I hope you continue to share your experiences as I have learnt from them and from others.

You can't teach if you die.

Thanks KAT.  :)

In some ways, my experience was different from others here. Maybe a little more extreme. I mean, my folks never pushed or pressured me and always defended me as a kid. But I did have to wear a dress every Sunday. And a skirt in private school. It was hell. Not their fault. They just needed me to conform to the rules. But as soon as I put on that dress, my identity disappeared. I became very quiet and shy the whole time I was wearing the dress or skirt. Humiliated.

I also ended up in a hospital where they tried so hard to get me to act like a girl. Pretty hilarious actually. Not at the time though.  :laugh:

Quote from: Jess42 on May 08, 2014, 09:40:48 AM

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 12:21:49 AM
<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

I don't hon. I would definately miss you if you were gone. :'(

But I do sort of know what you are talking about because I felt I had my butt chewed on here a while back because I don't have the time to start a group in my area by someone that thought that I should. Yeah it kind of hurt, made me feel about an inch tall and actually brought tears to my eyes because to me it felt like the person thought I was talking the talk but not walking the walk. It made me feel invalidated about myself even. Yes my feelings were hurt but I just really don't get mad anymore and calmy felt I had to respond to what my hectic life was like at the time. I think the thread just died out after that.

People are different, experiences are unique and no two of us are the same or have the exact same experience. All of our experiences in my opinion are valid and all experiences can be learned from, hopefully.

Aww sorry about that hon. Glad you're still here hon.


I just want to clarify that this thread is more of a general rant than over any specific incident. It's more like an accumulation of incidents.

FA, I don't think it's so much that we don't believe what you're saying so much as many of us are afraid to. We're semi-willingly moving from a place of privilege to a marginalized group within a marginalized group.

We see those punji sticks at the bottom of the pit, yet we have no choice but to hurl ourselves over the precipice. Is it any wonder we can't bear to look?

You've climbed out and you're frantically trying to warn us. I really appreciate that but I'm already in the air. I do appreciate that you'll still be there to help me when I hit, and I'm sure your warnings will be of benefit with dealing when I get there.

We all do, collectively, need to dig out those damned stakes!

Quote from: defective snowflake on May 07, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
I think a big issue is that some of those things that made you and other assigned females feel objectified, used and marginalized can actually be a little validating for MFT at times. So yes, it will tend to be seen differently by them and though they may not mean to, their acceptance and at times even welcoming of it may well feel invalidating to you and others. Let's face it, we're very much different groups of people under the same umbrella here. There are going to be these issues of conflict between mtf, ftm and even the non-gender, androgynes and the rest of the crowd seeking shelter under the umbrella. The best that can really hoped for would be an understanding that discussion be gentle, not accusational towards groups of people.


Anyway, I had put myself up for deletion, but wanted to say that one thing and now I am out. I can't deal with this stuff and other stuff currently going on in my life and since its a lot harder to escape my real life...

Sorry, just saw this. When I'm upset, I don't think I explain things very well. I'm not meaning to be accusatory toward anyone.

I can see what you mean about the validation bit. I've even heard cis females who aren't seen as conventionally attractive mention this kind of thing. That in a disturbing way, being catcalled seems to validate their womanhood at the same time they recognize it as not something good.

Anyway, I hate that I've upset you. I hope you won't leave on account of me.  :(

Anyway, to the newer people here - I'm not normally like this. I've finally realized that I need to heal my past to move on. I've gotten through a lot of it on my own. And despite the controversy, the recent discussions surrounding society's expectations that women be beautiful and not age have really helped me. I am finally able to see that for the bs it is. I don't think I could have done that on my own. I've finally got an appointment with a therapist. But I doubt they can do what you all do here. One voice is great. But the multitude of voices and perspectives here have helped me more than anything else has in years.

I guess what I'm trying to get through right now is the damage done by growing up female and living as female. Not that growing up male isn't damaging. I'm sure it is. But in a different way.

I feel like I came into this world with so much promise. I was early to do everything, one of those 'smart girls'. And then I got crushed by transness and femaleness. Under the bulldozer of sexism and gender. I'm trying now to pick the remnants of that child flower run over by the bulldozer. To see if there's anything left. And if I can put it back together if there is.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 10:52:45 AM
I guess what I'm trying to get through right now is the damage done by growing up female and living as female. Not that growing up male isn't damaging. I'm sure it is. But in a different way.

I feel like I came into this world with so much promise. I was early to do everything, one of those 'smart girls'. And then I got crushed by transness and femaleness. Under the bulldozer of sexism and gender. I'm trying now to pick the remnants of that child flower run over by the bulldozer. To see if there's anything left. And if I can put it back together if there is.

FA I just have to say something about this that you wrote that may give you a little different perspective on the damage you mention. Yeah it will be cliche' but it mostly is true. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Unfortunately a lot of us have done that first part by our own hands or vices. This doesn't need to happen, thought about it many times myself or didn't care what I took to make the pain go away. Fortunately those days are behind me now.

Transness growing up male or female and longing so badly to be the other sux. It is different between male and female but believe me, the pain is the same. I was so jealous of the little girls that got to wear long hair, cute little dresses and those little shoes with the strap thingies, While I had to have short hair, wear jeans or boy shorts and tshirts. Not to mention girls got to be daddy's little girl and I had to be daddy's little man. These things hurt me way more than all the scrapes and bruises and a couple of times stitches. This led to self loathing, anger, self hate, and just hating life in general in later years. Not to mention chemical dependencies just to make the pain go away if only for a little while. Yes this also led to me being a misfit in my school years which actually helped me out later on in school life and real life.

Fast forward to the present and looking back. All of these things and overcoming them has made me who I am today. Very open minded, extremely accepting and non judgemental of anyone other than myself. In other words all the pain and everything that goes with being trans has made me generally a better person, or at least I would like to think so anyway even though other's may disagree. Trial by fire I guess you could say.

FA, I don't know you personally only what you write, I believe since you made it this far you have tremedous strength and courage. We all have promise in this world, and that includes you. You are an administrator of a websight that about a year or so ago that lifted me out of a really low point. A lot of people I'm sure are inspired by this sight and don't feel quite so alone in the world because of it and what you do and what you have experienced. Anyway, I have faith in you and believe you are a lot stronger than what you give yourself credit for. A lot of times it is just changing the way we see things and a therapist will definately be able to help you with that.

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 05:10:07 PM
Yet, trans women seem to feel free to comment on an assigned girl's experience.

I can offer a pretty simple explanation. 

As little ones, many of us never perceived we were different from other girls aside from how we were allowed to express, and if we did perceive a difference, it wasn't paid much attention until later.  There was no "separation" between ourselves and them.   We always identified with exactly what they were.  We didn't think "assigned girl" and "trans girl".  They were girls.  We were girls.  What more to think about?

That feeling, even though it stems from a child's innocence of our world's ways, persists with us into adulthood in some form.  To really try to understand how assigned women were treated differently at a young age, we would first have to deeply, emotionally acknowledge a fundamental divide between us and them.  And that hurts... a lot. 

Irrational pain?  Of course, but it always is felt even if I try not to.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 01:35:34 PM

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 05:10:07 PM
Yet, trans women seem to feel free to comment on an assigned girl's experience.

I can offer a pretty simple explanation. 

As little ones, many of us never perceived we were different from other girls aside from how we were allowed to express.  There was no "separation" between ourselves and them.   We always identified with exactly what they were.  We didn't think "assigned girl" and "trans girl".  They were girls.  We were girls.

That feeling, even though it stems from a child's innocence of our world's ways, persists with us into adulthood in some form.  To really try to understand how assigned women were treated differently at a young age, we would first have to emotionally acknowledge a fundamental divide between us and them.  And that hurts... a lot.  Irrational pain?  Of course, but it always is felt even if I try not to.

Oh. That makes sense. I've been trying to understand why this stuff seems to divide us. It's manufactured, societal difference though. If you were recognized as female at a young age, you'd have been treated differently. It's not a difference of being a girl vs not being one. But what society makes of it.

I think that I am quick to anger and feel hurt about these issues because they are so close to home. I feel, well, outraged at being assigned the 'inferior position' at birth. I feel hurt and angry at the discrepancies between how the boys were treated in school and how I was treated. By teachers, I mean.
I am probably irrevocably damaged by the constant focus on my outsides as a girl and young woman. Everybody constantly commenting saying I was beautiful, complimenting my body, etc. - all those words have turned to slaps. It hurts. a lot. I feel like I have been robbed of part of my humanity.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 01:57:44 PM
Oh. That makes sense. I've been trying to understand why this stuff seems to divide us. It's manufactured, societal difference though. If you were recognized as female at a young age, you'd have been treated differently. It's not a difference of being a girl vs not being one. But what society makes of it.

Even so, we're given life just once and there's some basic need to feel my formative years weren't overly different from other girls.  The bigger of a difference I acknowledge between those set of experiences, the more alienated I feel from... I guess I would say an intrinsic bond passed between women.  I can't describe it but it feels instinctive and ancient, as much so as any feeling I've ever felt. 

I don't know if any other trans women feel this, or if any cis women do.  Do guys feel this, a sense of "brotherhood"?  I assume cis people in general would have a harder time detecting it, being in its belly.

QuoteI think that I am quick to anger and feel hurt about these issues because they are so close to home. I feel, well, outraged at being assigned the 'inferior position' at birth. I feel hurt and angry at the discrepancies between how the boys were treated in school and how I was treated. By teachers, I mean.
I am probably irrevocably damaged by the constant focus on my outsides as a girl and young woman. Everybody constantly commenting saying I was beautiful, complimenting my body, etc. - all those words have turned to slaps. It hurts. a lot. I feel like I have been robbed of part of my humanity.

I can't ever know what that was like, and I'm truly sorry you were forced to go through it for so many years on end.

Was being objectified and treated as a girl more painful than not being treated as a boy and valued?  And where would you draw the distinction between those two?

Everyone has a different experience of life, but people forget this all the time. It causes a lot of misunderstanding and problems.

I have hyperacusis. A sound that one person might not pay attention to at all could be painfully loud to me. A person asked me once, incredulously, how could a noise possibly hurt. I asked them if it would hurt if someone blasted a trumpet in their ear. That got the point across. But until I could frame it in a way that related to what they experience, they didn't believe me about something as minor as "that hurts my ears".

Something as major as the differences in how people are treated based on perceived gender is awfully difficult to get across. This kind of discussion is important, so thanks for posting about it, FA.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 02:21:57 PM

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 01:57:44 PM
Oh. That makes sense. I've been trying to understand why this stuff seems to divide us. It's manufactured, societal difference though. If you were recognized as female at a young age, you'd have been treated differently. It's not a difference of being a girl vs not being one. But what society makes of it.

Even so, we're given life just once and there's some basic need to feel my formative years weren't overly different from other girls.  The bigger of a difference I acknowledge between those set of experiences, the more alienated I feel from... I guess I would say an intrinsic bond passed between women.  I can't describe it but it feels instinctive and ancient, as much so as any feeling I've ever felt. 

I don't know if any other trans women feel this, or if any cis women do.  Do guys feel this, a sense of "brotherhood"?  I assume cis people in general would have a harder time detecting it, being in its belly.

That's really interesting. I think part of it comes from being marginalized. Marginalized groups tend to have this 'identity' others don't. Like there's really not much of a 'white identity'. Because it's sort of the default, majority position. Like men and whites can have kind of a 'brotherhood', us against them thing. But it's not quite the same because those aren't marginalized positions. It's sort of like - if you're female, a person of color, trans, gay, lesbian, etc - the world kind of puts this extra thing on you. And everyone sort of filters you through that extra lens. Like a white dude, well, he's not a 'white dude'. He's whoever he is. A black woman - well, she's a 'black woman'. She's whoever she is, but she's got these extra markers. You know what I mean?

So that's kind of what's weird about being trans. We're adding a trans marker. And trans women are gaining an additional marker. And trans guys are losing one.

So, I guess I can kind of understand where trans women are on this. Because the woman identity is more significant. It's a marker in a way being a guy isn't a marker.

I'll be back to finish.

Quote from: blink on May 08, 2014, 02:35:52 PM
Everyone has a different experience of life, but people forget this all the time. It causes a lot of misunderstanding and problems.

I have hyperacusis. A sound that one person might not pay attention to at all could be painfully loud to me. A person asked me once, incredulously, how could a noise possibly hurt - I asked them if it would hurt if someone blasted a trumpet in their ear. That got the point across. But until I could frame it in a way that related to what they experience, they didn't believe me about something as minor as "that hurts my ears".

Something as major as the differences in how people are treated based on perceived gender is awfully difficult to get across. This kind of discussion is important, so thanks for posting about it, FA.

In the instance of trans people, it's more about understanding experiences that happened at a young age vs. the rest of our life.  While I can't understand early assigned female life, I'll never understand what's it's like to be a young adult male, middle aged man or old man.  All I have is my understanding of the male gender from the late teens and younger.  It's an incomplete picture that skews my concept of manhood.

Two groups that effectively switched places talking about experiences is a recipe for complication.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 02:41:15 PM


That's really interesting. I think part of it comes from being marginalized. Marginalized groups tend to have this 'identity' others don't. Like there's really not much of a 'white identity'. Because it's sort of the default, majority position. Like men and whites can have kind of a 'brotherhood', us against them thing. But it's not quite the same because those aren't marginalized positions. It's sort of like - if you're female, a person of color, trans, gay, lesbian, etc - the world kind of puts this extra thing on you. And everyone sort of filters you through that extra lens. Like a white dude, well, he's not a 'white dude'. He's whoever he is. A black woman - well, she's a 'black woman'. She's whoever she is, but she's got these extra markers. You know what I mean?

So that's kind of what's weird about being trans. We're adding a trans marker. And trans women are gaining an additional marker. And trans guys are losing one.

So, I guess I can kind of understand where trans women are on this. Because the woman identity is more significant. It's a marker in a way being a guy isn't a marker.

I'll be back to finish.

While I definitely agree with that, it's instinctive too.  In tribal life (where evolution mostly took place), women tend to stick together.  It provides protection from rogue males and mutual protection and education of children. 

Such a fundamental difference in experience from all other women (except the tiny demographic of other trans women) makes me feel like an illegal immigrant to womanhood.  I didn't pay the price from the start.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
Such a fundamental difference in experience from all other women (except the tiny demographic of other trans women) makes me feel like an illegal immigrant to womanhood.  I didn't pay the price from the start.

^ This. Like an illegal immigrant or maybe a spy. Question is, which side am I spying for? It's more than a bit uncomfortable.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 02:57:16 PM

While I definitely agree with that, it's instinctive too.  In tribal life (where evolution mostly took place), women tend to stick together.  It provides protection from rogue males and mutual protection and education of children. 

Such a fundamental difference in experience from all other women (except the tiny demographic of other trans women) makes me feel like an illegal immigrant to womanhood.  I didn't pay the price from the start.

Sorry it took me awhile to reply. ^ This post is powerful.

Um, I've been trying to put myself in trans women's shoes, you know thinking about how my experience isn't like cis males. And it isn't. But while I envy it, it doesn't have quite the same power I think. For two reasons I think:

• growing up female is a marginalized experience
• the beginning (girlhood, young womanhood, etc) of a woman's life is more celebrated than that of a male. Much more is made of a female's early years.

I'm not going to pretend it's not a loss and it doesn't matter. And the radfems have sure rammed this home as something to marginalize trans women ('born women', 'didn't experience growing up as a girl' etc). I think I get part of their point. I think sometimes cis women feel dismissed or hurt or angry because of what they went through. So, maybe someone who didn't go through that calling themselves a woman feels invalidating. They don't realize she wishes she could trade that experience for hers.

But if everyone would just listen to each other, as we are doing right now, this could be healed.

I can feel the sense of loss in your words Inanna. And feel really bad. But just because you didn't grow up female, doesn't make you an immigrant.

It's kind of like... have you ever seen the Blue Lagoon or something like that? Well, picture this:

A little girl is born on a remote island. All she knows is her family. No other people around. She knows she is female, but she doesn't know the cultural meanings of that. She's just got her mother and father (equal partners trying to survive). Okay, so one day in her teens, they are rescued.  And she has to go to school and everything. And learns she's a 'girl' and all the cultural baggage that goes with that.
She doesn't have female socialization really. So, okay she's a little different from the other girls. But maybe that's not a bad thing. The other girls by this time have learned their value is in their looks (except the fat or unattractive girls). They play dumb and focus on dieting and their looks. But the island girl sees that for the bull->-bleeped-<- it is. And eats a damn burger.

I know what your saying, FA

Your saying That somtimes your not talking about your internal perspective, but the outside worlds perspective off you.

And how you hate that when you talk about what its like to been seen as F your talking about just that, how F is treated by the outside world, but some people try to say it sucked becuse of your internal M perspective. When the truth is, somtimes it sucks just to be seen as F.

And when you try and point out that, that F is still ther in F tm and mt F and in cis F, some people argue with you by forgetting that you talking about what it WAS like for YOU in YOUR area at THAT time.

But I do understand how, some people might not get it. But I get it.

Talking about my exsperience sorry if its not in line with the subject.

But when I WAS younger and I fell, my farther used to luagth at me and tell me not to be such an ideot, but when my sister fell he would run over to her and ask if she was ok,comfort her and with all his love say "silly girl."
My mother would, come up to me cuddle me comfort me and say "try to be more carefull" and to my sister she would do the same the same thing except with a gender roll persuasion such as, climbing is for boys girls walk through gates.

So not only is my farther in some way informing my sister its ok for her to be silly, he's enforcing on me that a shouldn't. And my mother exspressed love either way, but was gender roll persuasive with my sister.

With that I'm not talking about my MtF perspective but pointing out the outside perspective of F and M, and the differing treatment both F and M received by both F an M in the same situation.

And, FA even if I'm wrong about this or anything, I need you just as much as anyone els to educate me. Because you have undoubtedly more exsperience of the outside world perspective of F then I do.

If you ever feel like nobody online at the time wants here your perspective PM me, I might not be online at the time, but you will definatly have one person who cares to hear it in me. No matter what ill always whan to hear your side, and even if I don't always agree with you it doesn't mean I don't want to hear your opinion.

That's a quite an interesting analogy.  I would be curious what radfems think about it. 

I can certainly see the difference between being exposed to these standards early vs. later.  That which we learn in early childhood tends to "stick" in our subconscious.  I was raised southern baptist and drifted away in my teens.  Nonetheless, so much of it still persists in my psyche despite actively fighting it... such as being slightly nervous around "blasphemy", thinking of Catholics as not Christian, seeing Mormonism as a cult, afraid to use the expletive GD (or even just "god" in vain).  This does lessen gradually over the years, but like a limit in Calculus, never reaches its destination.

Applying that to gender, I can't imagine the residue of BS put into the minds of young children raised as female from birth. 

On a side note, I really love how Cosmos is showing all the amazing female scientists that pioneered the way in all fields, whose stories haven't been told to the mainstream until now.  It's an incredibly positive message for young girls.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 08, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
I know what your saying, FA

Your saying That somtimes your not talking about your internal perspective, but the outside worlds perspective off you.

And how you hate that when you talk about what its like to been seen as F your talking about just that, how F is treated by the outside world, but some people try to say it sucked becuse of your internal M perspective. When the truth is, somtimes it sucks just to be seen as F.

And when you try and point out that, that F is still ther in F tm and mt F and in cis F, some people argue with you by forgetting that you talking about what it WAS like for YOU in YOUR area at THAT time.

But I do understand how, some people might not get it. But I get it.

Talking about my exsperience sorry if its not in line with the subject.

But when I WAS younger and I fell, my farther used to luagth at me and tell me not to be such an ideot, but when my sister fell he would run over to her and ask if she was ok,comfort her and with all his love say "silly girl."
My mother would, come up to me cuddle me comfort me and say "try to be more carefull" and to my sister she would do the same the same thing except with a gender roll persuasion such as, climbing is for boys girls walk through gates.

So not only is my farther in some way informing my sister its ok for her to be silly, he's enforcing on me that a shouldn't. And my mother exspressed love either way, but was gender roll persuasive with my sister.

With that I'm not talking about my MtF perspective but pointing out the outside perspective of F and M, and the differing treatment both F and M received by both F an M in the same situation.

And, FA even if I'm wrong about this or anything, I need you just as much as anyone els to educate me. Because you have undoubtedly more exsperience of the outside world perspective of F then I do.

If you ever feel like nobody online at the time wants here your perspective PM me, I might not be online at the time, but you will definatly have one person who cares to hear it in me. No matter what ill always whan to hear your side, and even if I don't always agree with you it doesn't mean I don't want to hear your opinion.

Thanks sweetie. That means a lot. I think that I get hurt and emotional over these discussions in part because aside from my mother, my best friends are trans women. I love trans women! I love you all! lol
Now not everyone fits this, of course, but I find trans women as a group to be extremely empathetic and caring. Maybe it's a trans thing mixed with a woman thing. I don't know.

Well, if you'll forgive me, I'll tell a little story of how I feel when this happens and I feel hurt and my trans women friends feel hurt by me and...

I had this very good friend. We had gone to school together, in ROTC together. One day we got into a disagreement. I'm strongly pro-choice. He wasn't. I ended up getting angry with him for having that position when he will never, ever know the fear of missing a period. Of a broken condom (well, he might, but not like that).

I felt (and still feel) that he was taking a position on something he will never have to deal with. He's never going to know that sinking feeling while praying desperately that a period will come. I've had pregnancy scares. He never will. I would not have been so angry with a woman who was pro-life. I was angry with him because it seemed so unfair for him to judge something he will never have to deal with. I know some will not agree with me or think I'm being unfair. But, it's a gut feeling. A gut rage. That he would think he could judge something he will never have to deal with.

Honestly, when men take this pro-life position, it seems disingenuous to me. They don't have a womb. This is my body and I find it highly offensive that someone who will never, ever have to deal with a pregnancy scare tell me or anyone else with a womb what we should do in that event.

Ok, I ended up ranting a bit. But the point was that this was the first ever 'row' or real disagreement between me and my best friend. Up to that point, we'd basically just been two dudes. Now, we were divided. And suddenly, I was playing the woman - concerned about the woman's side because of my biology. It was very upsetting and disconcerting for me. And now, I kind of feel the same way. Like some of my dearest friends and I are divided on an issue. An issue very personal to me. And once again, it feels like I am playing the woman's side. Because of my history. And I HATE that. I hate that women's issues have anything to do with me. I wish I could be my pro-life friend and all blase about it. But I can't because I have a womb.

I've always been pro-choice as I believe in body autonomy (e.g. I'm against infant genital modifications for any reason), but many years ago during a conversation with the female family members, my sister asked why I was even discussing abortion and pregnancy since it would never pertain to me.  Though I told her women's reproductive rights needed to be defended by everyone, I remember feeling that it was like asking why a homeless person would care what CEOs did with their wealth.  Point-of-view is everything I suppose.

FA, you just made my mind go here-

When I was in college, frathouse rapes were far too commonplace.  Sometimes drugs or alcohol were used on an unconscious women, sometimes it was just done by pure physical domination.  I knew a few who had to live through it and bear the emotional scars for life.   Some of these women and their friends formed a support group, which evolved into a bit of a vigilante movement called the Creative Underground Network of Truthful Sisters. (got that?)  Revenge was sworn on the offending frat boys, and frathouses were vandalized.  The town became covered with their calling card neon orange stickers.  One of them read, "BITE BACK HARD, TRUTHFUL SISTERS". So I stuck one on the bass guitar that I gigged with, punk rock style.  Two friends of mine that were affiliated with the group took me aside one day and asked me why in the hell I had that on my bass, and why I'd ever support their group that considered men the enemy.  They laughed at me, thinking I probably had no idea what was being implied.   I explained that I was on their side, but they couldn't take me seriously and even thought I might be mocking them.  It saddened me that when I tried to offer my support, it was ultimately rejected because I was perceived as a man, and therefore the enemy. 

I F***ING HATE rapists.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 07:45:50 PM
I've always been pro-choice as I believe in body autonomy (e.g. I'm against infant genital modifications for any reason), but many years ago during a conversation with the female family members, my sister asked why I was even discussing abortion and pregnancy since it would never pertain to me.  Though I told her women's reproductive rights needed to be defended by everyone, I remember feeling that it was like asking why a homeless person would care what CEOs did with their wealth.  Point-of-view is everything I suppose.

True. Maybe it seems unfair of me to be okay with men (or non womb bearing persons) expressing pro-choice views but not expressing the opposite. I guess because they're for the choice of women (or womb bearing persons) instead of taking that right away. I dunno. As forum admin, I probably shouldn't have revealed an opinion on this. But there was an article the other day (on here I think) talking about how reproductive rights have stuff in common with trans rights. And I liked that. Everyone should be master and ruler of their own body.

Quote from: Jill F on May 08, 2014, 07:55:26 PM
FA, you just made my mind go here-

When I was in college, frathouse rapes were far too commonplace.  Sometimes drugs or alcohol were used on an unconscious women, sometimes it was just done by pure physical domination.  I knew a few who had to live through it and bear the emotional scars for life.   Some of these women and their friends formed a support group, which evolved into a bit of a vigilante movement called the Creative Underground Network of Truthful Sisters. (got that?)  Revenge was sworn on the offending frat boys, and frathouses were vandalized.  The town became covered with their calling card neon orange stickers.  One of them read, "BITE BACK HARD, TRUTHFUL SISTERS". So I stuck one on the bass guitar that I gigged with, punk rock style.  Two friends of mine that were affiliated with the group took me aside one day and asked me why in the hell I had that on my bass, and why I'd ever support their group that considered men the enemy.  They laughed at me, thinking I probably had no idea what was being implied.   I explained that I was on their side, but they couldn't take me seriously and even thought I might be mocking them.  It saddened me that when I tried to offer my support, it was ultimately rejected because I was perceived as a man, and therefore the enemy. 

I F***ING HATE rapists.

Aww I love that they formed a group and fought back! But sad the way they treated you.  :(

Rapists are the same as murderers in my book.

QuoteBut there was an article the other day (on here I think) talking about how reproductive rights have stuff in common with trans rights. And I liked that. Everyone should be master and ruler of their own body.

Absolutely.  And that's why I'm glad to live in modern times, when we have more authority over our bodies than at any point in history.  I believe that as a teenage girl should have the right to an abortion, a trans teen should have the right to HRT.  I'm glad that the standards of care are moving in that direction.

This is way off topic, but it's interesting to speculate what the logical conclusion of body self-determination is in a world of seemingly endless medical improvement.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 06:59:34 PM
That's a quite an interesting analogy.  I would be curious what radfems think about it. 

I can certainly see the difference between being exposed to these standards early vs. later.  That which we learn in early childhood tends to "stick" in our subconscious.  I was raised southern baptist and drifted away in my teens.  Nonetheless, so much of it still persists in my psyche despite actively fighting it... such as being slightly nervous around "blasphemy", thinking of Catholics as not Christian, seeing Mormonism as a cult, afraid to use the expletive GD (or even just "god" in vain).  This does lessen gradually over the years, but like a limit in Calculus, never reaches its destination.

Applying that to gender, I can't imagine the residue of BS put into the minds of young children raised as female from birth. 

On a side note, I really love how Cosmos is showing all the amazing female scientists that pioneered the way in all fields, whose stories haven't been told to the mainstream until now.  It's an incredibly positive message for young girls.

Hmm Well, a point I forgot in my little island girl story was that she would never be regarded as less than a woman because of her lack of socialization. Nobody would have ever questioned her. She's a woman as much as all the girls born there. I mean what is a girl? Is she a girl because of how she grew up? Don't know if you've heard of the boy in the box case. (unidentified boy in a box in the 50s or was it 60s)

Anyway, there was some speculation since his hair had been cut and nobody recognized him that he may have been raised as a girl. And that they cut his hair after death to cover this up. But anyway, if there was a boy (a cis boy with a male brain) raised as a girl, appearing to all the world as a girl, he would have gone through female socialization too. But he's a boy. I think that socialization is important, but it's not gender.

I know that this argument has been used against trans women, especially with the Mich fest thing. The whole WBW/girlhood thing. Well, I can understand that people who experienced a 'girlhood' want to heal from that. I disagree that women without that experience can't help with that. I mean, I'm sure that trans women have a similar childhood in common they might need help with as well.

I remember an older woman I knew ( I used to have a bunch of adult friends when i was younger for some reason). Doesn't matter who she is, let's call her Cassie.

Cassie was majorly a victim of being a woman. She grew up alone, the youngest child, shy and not approachable, didn't have many friends. She suffered from neglect but really what she was suffering from was so much deeper. She was being raped. For years, over and over again by her own uncle. She stumbled through her teens, alone and untreated for severe ptsd among others, and eventually she was raped again. Random incident. Several guys, cuz she made the mistake of going out alone at night. She had a brief period of clarity in college, and she got a degree, but she couldn't cope and never got a job in her field. She met a guy though, a guy who could never really love her, and moved in with him and became a housewife. Her life since has just been an issue of coping with the past and staying alive, she hasn't really made any progress. She spends days in dissociative fogs, she's ruined in self-inflicted scars, she has a history of suicide attempts and lives in a cycle of guilt about it and really hinestly wanting to try again. She can't enjoy life. She never will know how. She will always long to finally die and be free of it. She will always be haunted by this past, and sad thing is, no matter what anyone says, it's a past she probably wouldn't have had as a man, (and i say that as a male survivor of rape, it just doesn't happen that often to us, and even when it does, it's usually not the same) and there's nothing she could do to to avoid it, and nothing she did to deserve it. This story is not really rare. It's devastatingly common. All cuz some guy wanted to get off.

I remember hearing a statistic that something like 50% of men admitted anonymously that they would rape a woman if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Well, there ya have it. it's just gross. It's so messed up. I can't even begin to process it.

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
I remember an older woman I knew ( I used to have a bunch of adult friends when i was younger for some reason). Doesn't matter who she is, let's call her Cassie.

Cassie was majorly a victim of being a woman. She grew up alone, the youngest child, shy and not approachable, didn't have many friends. She suffered from neglect but really what she was suffering from was so much deeper. She was being raped. For years, over and over again by her own uncle. She stumbled through her teens, alone and untreated for severe ptsd among others, and eventually she was raped again. Random incident. Several guys, cuz she made the mistake of going out alone at night. She had a brief period of clarity in college, and she got a degree, but she couldn't cope and never got a job in her field. She met a guy though, a guy who could never really love her, and moved in with him and became a housewife. Her life since has just been an issue of coping with the past and staying alive, she hasn't really made any progress. She spends days in dissociative fogs, she's ruined in self-inflicted scars, she has a history of suicide attempts and lives in a cycle of guilt about it and really hinestly wanting to try again. She can't enjoy life. She never will know how. She will always long to finally die and be free of it. She will always be haunted by this past, and sad thing is, no matter what anyone says, it's a past she probably wouldn't have had as a man, (and i say that as a male survivor of rape, it just doesn't happen that often to us, and even when it does, it's usually not the same) and there's nothing she could do to to avoid it, and nothing she did to deserve it. This story is not really rare. It's devastatingly common. All cuz some guy wanted to get off.

I remember hearing a statistic that something like 50% of men admitted anonymously that they would rape a woman if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Well, there ya have it. it's just gross. It's so messed up. I can't even begin to process it.

oh god, that's awful.  :(
I think one of the stats is one in every 3 women or something like that will experience sexual assault of some kind in her lifetime. Even if the stat's wrong, it's still pretty high. And that's only the ones we know about. Most don't report. And when you look at the world as a whole - honor killings, women being murdered because their rape 'dishonored' the family, etc. It seems like women were put on this earth to be hurt.  :(

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 08:26:44 PM
Hmm Well, a point I forgot in my little island girl story was that she would never be regarded as less than a woman because of her lack of socialization. Nobody would have ever questioned her. She's a woman as much as all the girls born there. I mean what is a girl? Is she a girl because of how she grew up? Don't know if you've heard of the boy in the box case. (unidentified boy in a box in the 50s or was it 60s)

Anyway, there was some speculation since his hair had been cut and nobody recognized him that he may have been raised as a girl. And that they cut his hair after death to cover this up. But anyway, if there was a boy (a cis boy with a male brain) raised as a girl, appearing to all the world as a girl, he would have gone through female socialization too. But he's a boy. I think that socialization is important, but it's not gender.

I know that this argument has been used against trans women, especially with the Mich fest thing. The whole WBW/girlhood thing. Well, I can understand that people who experienced a 'girlhood' want to heal from that. I disagree that women without that experience can't help with that. I mean, I'm sure that trans women have a similar childhood in common they might need help with as well.

As trans children are increasingly allowed to express themselves, I think this entire distinction won't be an issue in the future.  For example Coy Mathis (Colorado bathroom controversy) or Jazz (on ABC documentary).  They have spent virtually their entire childhood as girls and have been exposed to the same standards as any other girls. 

Even if one didn't have accepting parents, it's a sliding scale.  I mean, there's a big difference between someone transitioning at 18-20 and 50, as much as the difference between 18-20 and birth.  I'm going through all my 20's and 30's under these standards; I feel affected too.  Sometimes older trans women speak as if we've had the same experiences.  It's not black and white, trans vs. not, like the Mich fest organizers make it.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 09:10:21 PMIt seems like women were put on this earth to be hurt.

Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman? I mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece? I think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman? I mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece? I think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

I am.  I was absolutely miserable being a fake guy.  Testosterone made me indifferent to living, estrogen makes me happy.  I don't care what my social status is.  I was as good as dead, and now I want to live.  Ask everyone in my life what a difference transitioning has made for me.  It's like night and day.

Quote from: Jill F on May 08, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
I am.  I was absolutely miserable being a fake guy.  Testosterone made me indifferent to living, estrogen makes me happy.  I don't care what my social status is.  I was as good as dead, and now I want to live.  Ask everyone in my life what a difference transitioning has made for me.  It's like night and day.

But, don't you think you are a little blinded by dysphoria in terms of that question? Most women were never kept from being women, so they don't get the extra appreciation of not having to deal with living in a world that treats them as a different social group than what they feel like/know they are. When you compare, it's probably nice, but does that mean it's what it really should be?

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman?

Wow, really?  Aside from the point that completely invalidates trans women's state of mind, idk, maybe some people don't mind being what they are.  It's like saying a cat must want to be a human since they're more powerful (cats probably see us as big, stupid, clumsy cats).

Power is not the only factor in happiness.

QuoteI mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece?

I'm sorry, but you have such a pessimistic outlook on womanhood it borders on sexism.

QuoteI think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

We strive for equality, but life isn't strictly a comparison.  If humans couldn't find happiness unless there was no group more privileged than themselves, there would be very few happy people.

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:58:18 PM
But, don't you think you are a little blinded by dysphoria in terms of that question? Most women were never kept from being women, so they don't get the extra appreciation of not having to deal with living in a world that treats them as a different social group than what they feel like/know they are. When you compare, it's probably nice, but does that mean it's what it really should be?

I am making do to best play the hand I got dealt.  Would I choose to be a ciswoman over a cisman in this world if I could have that choice?  Probably not.  I didn't get that choice.  Nobody does.  My brain is hard wired female, and it was running on the wrong fuel.  I could have chosen to remain miserable and I probably wouldn't be here typing this if I did.  I am much happier to be a living woman than a dying man.  Got it?

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
I remember hearing a statistic that something like 50% of men admitted anonymously that they would rape a woman if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Well, there ya have it. it's just gross. It's so messed up. I can't even begin to process it.

And this kind of thing is why I can't relate to men. I say I'm bisexual because I could easily be intimate with one, but I could never have a relationship with one.

Around here a few years back, near the college, we had a rapist preying on joggers. One evening at dusk he attacked a lone jogger. She had just finished her mandatory service in the Israeli army before coming to the states to finish her education. She was an expert at Krav Maga. He didn't come out of it with too many unbroken bones.

Inanna... I'm not gonna be the one who started this again. It's not worse to be a woman... just, women are treated worse and given worse. You don't have to be happy with that just cuz you can't help being a woman, and I don't think many women are happy with that, all things considered. Does that make what I meant clearer? :c

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 10:07:24 PM
Inanna... I'm not gonna be the one who started this again. It's not worse to be a woman... just, women are treated worse and given worse. You don't have to be happy with that just cuz you can't help being a woman, and I don't think many women are happy with that, all things considered. Does that make what I meant clearer? :c

If you had asked what kind of woman is happy with inequality who isn't in denial, I'm totally on board.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 10:10:57 PM
If you had asked what kind of woman is happy with inequality who isn't in denial, I'm totally on board.

Awesome! Sorry if my wording was bad, that's what I meant. :)

<sorry been posting and just now saw there were more replies>

Hmm well I get what Sad Panda's saying. I think trans women have a different perspective because they've had to fight for their womanhood. But from an objective perspective, the outlook for being female is kinda bleak compared to being a man. I mean, you're smaller, weaker, a target for rape and harassment, not viewed as an equal in this world, judged primarily on your body etc.

And what perks you're given are based on your lower status - you're seen as weak, so less of a threat. So people are more likely to help you. And (most often) men are inclined to help you because they think there's a 'reward' in it for them.  :icon_blah: yeah. They could be your dad's (or even grandpa's) age and they'll help you alright. Cause they hope there's a reward. Being a young, attractive female is sort of being like a lost puppy. You're alone, cold, hungry, scared and just want to come home. But those most likely to help you see this giant reward sign on you.

<sigh> It's just that most perks of being female are really tainted. And you feel all slimey when you think about it.

I mean, I get that being female for someone who actually is female is a lot better than being male. But any upside to being female (aside from motherhood and children) is based on either having a lower status or being objectified.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
<sorry been posting and just now saw there were more replies>

Hmm well I get what Sad Panda's saying. I think trans women have a different perspective because they've had to fight for their womanhood. But from an objective perspective, the outlook for being female is kinda bleak compared to being a man. I mean, you're smaller, weaker, a target for rape and harassment, not viewed as an equal in this world, judged primarily on your body etc.

And what perks you're given are based on your lower status - you're seen as weak, so less of a threat. So people are more likely to help you. And (most often) men are inclined to help you because they think there's a 'reward' in it for them.  :icon_blah: yeah. They could be your dad's (or even grandpa's) age and they'll help you alright. Cause they hope there's a reward. Being a young, attractive female is sort of being like a lost puppy. You're alone, cold, hungry, scared and just want to come home. But those most likely to help you see this giant reward sign on you.

<sigh> It's just that most perks of being female are really tainted. And you feel all slimey when you think about it.

I mean, I get that being female for someone who actually is female is a lot better than being male. But any upside to being female (aside from motherhood and children) is based on either having a lower status or being objectified.

FA, so your calling us useless unless we are low status and/or mothering?  :o meanie! lol

It sure beats being dead though.

but is FA's statement calling us useless? i mean i get its better than dead but still, we are human beings after all o.o

Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 08, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
but is FA's statement calling us useless? i mean i get its better than dead but still, we are human beings after all o.o

lol no honey. Not useless at all. Just that women, especially young women (since this is my only experience) are seen in certain ways.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 10:32:41 PM
lol no honey. Not useless at all. Just that women, especially young women (since this is my only experience) are seen in certain ways.

:'( had me going there for a second. lol

Quote from: Jill F on May 08, 2014, 10:25:00 PM
It sure beats being dead though.

Oh I agree. And I don't know that most cis women given the choice, wouldn't remain female. I mean, it's who they are. It just sucks that it comes with all this baggage.

Anyway, just to clarify: my experience was that of a little girl and a young woman. I don't have personal experience beyond that. I don't know what it's like to be a middle aged or older woman for example.

It's not alllllll bad :)

I Feel down now. I Hoped that in the future trans aceptence would create an increasingly andro society. And that in that society gender exspectations would eventually disapier.

But looking like a woman inst the only factor smaller and more vulnarable is too. So even if this andro society exsisted asigned woman more ofteen than not would still be born into the small and vulnarable catagory

Up antill now I had always thought i was raped because they wanted a boy. And just now understand the being smaller side to it.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 08, 2014, 11:17:34 PM
I Feel down now. I Hoped that in the future trans aceptence would create an increasingly andro society. And that in that society gender exspectations would eventually disapier.

But looking like a woman inst the only factor smaller and more vulnarable is too. So even if this andro society exsisted asigned woman more ofteen than not would still be born into the small and vulnarable catagory

Up antill now I had always thought i was raped because they wanted a boy. And just now understand the being smaller side to it.

omg! no wonder why that happened to me as a child -.- so now i know i'm not just over thinking things

Quote from: Jen on May 08, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
It's not alllllll bad :)

I Know Now my freinds stand up for me more. probably because now they see me as someone in need of protecting. Instead of being exspected to stand up for my self somthing iv never been able to do.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 08, 2014, 11:27:14 PM
I Know Now my freinds stand up for me more. probably because now they see me as someone in need of protecting. Instead of being exspected to stand up for my self somthing iv never been able to do.

Yeah!  There you go!  Those expectations society puts on men to be this and be that, which I could never live up to--good riddance!

Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 08, 2014, 11:19:49 PM
omg! no wonder why that happened to me as a child -.- so now i know i'm not just over thinking things

Yeah. And your seen as male and because your still overpowered people thing that you didnt try. And you start to think maybe yeah you could of done more. And if alays thought that antill now. were still targeted because were smaller and unless were realy realy lucky there isnt anything we can do to stop it. But yeah system let me down because of some unhidable femanin aspects.

I was a closeted gay in denial that did somthing he was ashamed to admit. and no matter what i said that was the outside perception of me at that point. even to my sister. the only family member ex comunicate me after comming out. go figure.

anyway sorry susans just needed to get that out.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 08, 2014, 11:50:23 PM
Yeah. And your seen as male and because your still overpowered people thing that you didnt try. And you start to think maybe yeah you could of done more. And if alays thought that antill now. were still targeted because were smaller and unless were realy realy lucky there isnt anything we can do to stop it. But yeah system let me down because of some unhidable femanin aspects.

I was a closeted gay in denial that did somthing he was ashamed to admit. and no matter what i said that was the outside perception of me at that point. even to my sister. the only family member ex comunicate me after comming out. go figure.

anyway sorry susans just needed to get that out.

omg! i went through the system and all i got in return was pain and suffering. my adopted mother has commented many times about how i actually survived but as you said, couldnt stop it but at least i survived long enough to realize what i do now

Quote from: Jen on May 08, 2014, 11:38:18 PM
Yeah!  There you go!  Those expectations society puts on men to be this and be that, which I could never live up to--good riddance!

but thats a plus in my scocial circle. out side of that its could be different for eg small male visualised as being able to better defend themself then woman. still possible deterant. no percepive exsperience of that yet because still pretty much a shut in.

Quote from: Jen on May 08, 2014, 11:38:18 PM
Yeah!  There you go!  Those expectations society puts on men to be this and be that, which I could never live up to--good riddance!

I just got awakened and I happened to read this.  I was exactly that. Sad but totally true.  I was really male fail long before male fail.