Susan's Place Transgender Resources

And started looking through a ton of the before and after pics and could hardly believe my jealously. :( They seem to do SO well on hormones compared to us.  I mean I know the whole "You look great!" sentiment we tell each other in our thread, but the ftm seem to by and large do significantly better job with passing off as their chosen gender than we do.  It always sucks being transgendered as opposed to simply being born in the gender we identify with to begin with. But it seems like even in these matters we drew the short stick. :(

The difference in the challenges we face are real. It might be easier to go one direction than the other, for many reasons.

But I'm often "sneaking" into the mtf photo threads. I don't comment, but I see beautiful, beautiful people there, too. There are so many posts where people really question themselves, and I just see pretty and cute and beauty.

That's partly true, just because T is a stronger hormone than E. So it's a bit harder for us to get over the effects of puberty, assuming we had to endure that.

There is a reason why facial surgery for trans women is a thing.

However, it's also that a lot of the more passable trans women are uncomfortable posting pictures of themselves online. We are much more likely to get our pics stolen and used in inappropriate ways, and we are more likely to be careful about maintaining our stealth due to the higher physical and social risks. Which means a lot of the pics that you get to see are people who are quite early in transition, before they become invisible and no longer want their pictures on the internet.

So ya, you'll never see a pic of me here or of any of my IRL trans female friends because the risk is just too high.

I've noticed that Ftm transition more gracefully most of the time than Mtf, and i have a theory as to why.

I've rationalized that as Mtf, the key is to LOSE things. Reduced muscle mass, reduced fat, reduce body hair, lose equipment (if desired) etc. and as we all know about the human body ~ losing is more difficult than gaining. Its easier to gain fat and muscle and etc for EVERYONE. Getting rid of hair is more difficult than actually growing it (because all you gotta do is wait lol)

For FTM its mostly about GAINING. Gaining muscle, gaining hair etc. so when you lack something that needs to be added, the result is always better. As I learned in college "its always better to have too much instead of not enough."

I dont dare say that they have an easier time in the transition because we all have our trials and trouble, but the results tend to be better for FTMs and ironically enough the only thing they need to lose is breasts and the only thing they need to gain is bottom surgery, while for MTF its the exact reverse lol.

And yes, T is a stronger hormone than E.  But its equally as difficult for a lot of FTMs because just as we have a hard time not seeing the man in the mirror, ive spoken to many FTM's who feel the same way about constantly still seeing the girl in the mirror. In the end, the physical transition may be more seamless than MTFs, but the rest of the challenges are there for them just as they are there for us, and having been on elevated T in my past... I can't imagine its easy to get a random RUSH of T after years of your body naturally producing E... it must be nightmarish from time to time...

I think if you look at each different aspect of both transitions  and compared  the pluses and minuses It probably comes out pretty equal taking everything into account.

I usually leave pics of myself up for a day or two to sort of mitigate the risk Sarah is talking about, but I am aware it doesn't remove the risk completely by any means.

Well, testosterone is a one way trip. Once you form male skeletal characteristics, facial hair, and baldness, it's there for good.

Still wouldn't want to be going the other way. In my experience (YMMV) the world is a whole lot nicer, friendlier, and open to females, and I really feel for FtMs who are forced by gender to enter into the cold world of being male.

I think you're experiencing a 'grass is greener' type effect; as MtF we've spent our lives obsessing over little details we feel will 'give us away', and as such when we transition those little details become magnified to the extreme in our minds. Not only that, but through viewing/critiquing other MtF we've trained ourselves to hone in like a laser, and thus in our minds convince ourselves of our 'non-passability'. In many ways we've simply fallen prey to the same kind of impossibly high, idealized, unfair beauty standards that torment cis-women.

I'm sure FtM face precisely the same self-doubt and low self-esteem that we do when looking in the mirror (always seeing the 'boy/'girl' they once were), no matter how successful their transition.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 09, 2014, 12:08:08 PM
Still wouldn't want to be going the other way. In my experience (YMMV) the world is a whole lot nicer, friendlier, and open to females, and I really feel for FtMs who are forced by gender to enter into the cold world of being male.

This made me giggle because ironically i was just talking to my wife and my mom about the very fact that being male results in a world of expectations from society. Most of the time Cismen act as though being a man takes some sort of initiation rite of passage... I'm still early as hell in my transition and still look quite male, yet women everwhere I go treat me as another woman.

I have a transmale friend who has been dressing male for the past 10 years (he didnt know about transitioning as a possibility nor about what transgender even was lol) and even though he chose a male name, behaves male, dresses male, even SMELLS male lol, his guy friends simply CANT seem to "accept" the fact even 10 years later.

I think being trans sucks whether you are female or male.  It's just a hardship that sort of reduces you to a second class citizen regardless.  I'm sorry this isn't positive, but I really find it hard to see this in an optimistic way.  We just all have to make the best of it and that requires minimizing potential problems which differ for transmen and women.  We all have our own set of issues and I'm sure there are hardships to go around.

That being said mtfs and ftms seem to prioritize passing in different ways.  It's important to both sides, but there is an obsession with it in the mtf community for good reason.  Almost every transguy  that I've met seems more confident and relaxed compared to their mtf counterparts regardless of their presentation.  Still a lot of men have passing issues to, so I don't want to invalidate anyone by claiming anything other than that.  It's not easy for any of us.  It's just I feel the need to pass and blend is sort of increased for transwomen by the way we are viewed.  But maybe I'm focusing too much on my own issues and blinded by that, so forgive me if I am.

But yeah, how I wish hormones worked more and that this wouldn't be an issue.  I seriously wonder if I am going to make it out of this okay and have doubts about my future.  I just wish it were easier and not so freaking hard to be trans in general. 

Part of what helps guys become invisible is that the visual expectations that seem to go hand in hand with being a woman just isn't there. Guys can look like crap and it's passed of as an off day but for a woman it might seem like a bad day or she let herself go. And physically, yes, I think their transformation is awesome! I've watch Birkin transition (we video chat every day) and watching videos of him pre-transition is so weird for me because he looks so very masculine now.

"So I sneaked into the FtM forum..." Ewww! Why would you want to go there?

But seriously, learningtolive make a good point when she says, "It's just a hardship that sort of reduces you to a second class citizen regardless." I think it's a good thing when we understand that FfM's have many of the same difficulties in life as MtFs, albeit with a different package. Yes, some of the (additive) changes available to them usually do result in a better and easier presentation (of course not always), and those changes are external, not representative of the internal difficulties. I've come to understand that they deserve just as much love, respect and compassion as everyone else.

It would all be so much simpler if someone could figure out which part of the brain contains the soul, so that it could be simply swapped with that of a (fairly pretty) FtM.

I think guys have it easier. It has to do with the power of T, as someone mentioned. It doesn't even matter how old you are, because T works it's "magic" regardless of your age. OTOH, for the gals they are going against all the changes that are produced by T. Estrogen is more of a subtle hormone, I guess I'd say. Another thing, due to male privilege, most (but not all) FTMs don't have to convince a psychologist we're not crazy. And IME there is as much social prejudice. Men do not feel that FTMs go into their bathrooms to rape them. For real, I have been congratulated for being male, which I think is strange but oh well. The arrest rate for FTMs is more like the average for cis people, and there is no penalty (except in some areas) of walking while trans male.

When you get to GCS/ SRS the male surgeries are multiple step and harder and there are less surgeons skills at them. I also believe we lack the visibility which has it's negatives. I did not know FTMs even existed, or if they did they were statistically very very rare. I know now that isn't true.

I think FTMs have our own struggles, and sometimes the rate of change creates its own issues as well as for those who don't seem to change as much. Obviously there are the issues that all trans people face--family, work, etc.


--Jay

I pretty much hated being a guy most of the time.  I hate the hair everywhere, couldn't stand to smell myself and all the rest. So becoming a trans person was completely life affirming.  Yep the guys are by and large more convincing, but I would rather have my bottom surgery than theirs.  If the element of safety didn't enter into it, it might be a wash.  But people hurt and kill trans women, and it isn't rare. I don't know the comparable statistics, but the danger of being trans falls predominantly on the girls.  Kinda like in the cis world, only magnefied many times.

Does being trans suck?  Sometimes, it would be lovely to be accepted at face value as who I know inside that I am; Or at least not mocked.  It would be only reasonable if our human civil and employment rights were protected and honored.  But I love being a girl, even if not everyone accepts me as such.  Living in the guy world is gray and sad.  Here there is color, and for me at least, new opportunity.  Everything is brighter, smells better, is more supportive, at least here at Susan's, and among my friends.

Now bear in mind this is coming from someone who a week ago was thinking about killing herself.  Sometimes it is so hard as to be impossible.  But most of the time I wouldn't trade who I am now for all the yesterdays I've known.  I would rather sneak into their side now and then for a peak, and then run back here, as quickly as I can in heels.

Julie

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 09, 2014, 11:35:08 AM
However, it's also that a lot of the more passable trans women are uncomfortable posting pictures of themselves online. We are much more likely to get our pics stolen and used in inappropriate ways, and we are more likely to be careful about maintaining our stealth due to the higher physical and social risks. Which means a lot of the pics that you get to see are people who are quite early in transition, before they become invisible and no longer want their pictures on the internet.

So ya, you'll never see a pic of me here or of any of my IRL trans female friends because the risk is just too high.

So much this! like I have yet to post any pics here and don't think I ever will.

yeah it is easier for ftms than mtf physically but emotionally were the same, T is pretty powerful and i feel like society is more laxed on ftms, I mean i never fear for my life and i feel like even when I don't pass, no one is tryin to beat me up for dressing like a guy or giving me odd looks, i wish our bottom surgery was as good as mtfs though, i'm still debating on even getting it, although can't wait to get the boobs removed

Quote from: Rainbow Brite on May 09, 2014, 01:27:25 PM
Part of what helps guys become invisible is that the visual expectations that seem to go hand in hand with being a woman just isn't there. Guys can look like crap and it's passed of as an off day but for a woman it might seem like a bad day or she let herself go. And physically, yes, I think their transformation is awesome! I've watch Birkin transition (we video chat every day) and watching videos of him pre-transition is so weird for me because he looks so very masculine now.

Yeah, but like LittleEmily24 said, I still have the challenge where I see nothing but a girl in the mirror. I also hear a woman when I speak. I am baffled that I am seen as male and sometimes (less so lately though) it causes me a great deal of anxiety because I'm just waiting for them to be like "oh, that's actually a girl."

I think trans women do get the short end of the stick when it comes to society. Masculinity is valued, so a trans man, even if he's not seen as a "real man" could still be seen as "upgrading" his status as long as he fits the male role.

I've seen a lot of very passable trans women, and they're fortunate because I think everyone expects trans women to look like a man in a dress. So once you do get to the point of passing flawlessly, people just don't even question it anymore.

Funny thing re: sneaking into the "guy's forum". Well most women are nice and respectful, of course, and often say valuable things, but why do gals go and say stuff like "EW stand to pee why would you want to do THAT?" and so forth. Not saying this is the OP, of course.

--Jay

Quote from: birkin on May 09, 2014, 05:41:38 PM
I've seen a lot of very passable trans women, and they're fortunate because I think everyone expects trans women to look like a man in a dress. So once you do get to the point of passing flawlessly, people just don't even question it anymore.

This could be true, hmm.

Quote from: Ryan55 on May 09, 2014, 05:33:37 PM
yeah it is easier for ftms than mtf physically but emotionally were the same, T is pretty powerful and i feel like society is more laxed on ftms, I mean i never fear for my life and i feel like even when I don't pass, no one is tryin to beat me up for dressing like a guy or giving me odd looks, i wish our bottom surgery was as good as mtfs though, i'm still debating on even getting it, although can't wait to get the boobs removed

This is another area where ftms have an advantage.  If you don't pass they just see you as a masculine woman and don't think twice about it, but if they think they see a man acting feminine, it's time to freak out.  I'm sure that let you all be less nervous about it, which in turn always helps with passing in the first place.

And I don't want to act like going one direction is harder than the other, but they are a little different, advantages and disadvantages of both I am sure, and we all share that it is so hard and can be so terrible, but also that it is the most rewarding thing you will do in your life if it is right for you.

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 01:56:15 PM

And I don't want to act like going one direction is harder than the other,

Well, the family stuff and coming out and all that is the same. But from a physical and societal point of view, I think it is more difficult for trans women as a group (which of course doesn't mean that an individual trans man doesn't have it a lot harder than another individual trans woman). The stigma is much greater as is the risk of violence (which again doesn't mean there aren't trans men facing violence).

In general, people just don't care as much about the existence of trans men. Which I think is rooted in gender inequality itself. If the genders were seen as equal, why would this be such a controversy? Because they're not. So women of both groups (cis and trans) are stigmatized and sexualized. While the men of both groups pretty much go unnoticed. Nobody cares.

And then of course the hormones themselves have their own inequality thing going on. lol  I don't need estrogen blockers because T pretty much obliterates E, rendering it useless. Physically, unless a trans guy is really dysphoric genital wise, we've got it easier. Except in the genital surgery department. While the women are left with a bunch of stuff that's not an easy fix - voice, hair, etc.

I think there may be a lot of truth to that.  I just don't want to be invalidating, also, I don't have any experience with what it's like for trans guys.   I do know they get the short end on the subj of socialization when they are impressionable and young, with regard to how they are taught to value themselves.

I don't like to compare apples and oranges, and that's pretty much what we are doing here. But I tend to agree that, generally speaking, trans men who aren't fussing about genitals mostly have an easier time than trans women. Unfortunately, I happen to be one of those genital-obsessed guys, and I so wish I could be like some of my friends who really don't care what they have in their pants.

However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

There are other factors as well.

But it's fine to envy aspects of each other's transition arc. A woman envies that I am very masculine-looking and -sounding; I envy her bottom surgery prospects. We will probably always find that in some ways, the grass is greener.

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

Dysphoria is the same for both of us...

But indeed...ftm always turn out a lot more passable compared to mtf...
of course there are exceptions...

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
I don't like to compare apples and oranges, and that's pretty much what we are doing here. But I tend to agree that, generally speaking, trans men who aren't fussing about genitals mostly have an easier time than trans women. Unfortunately, I happen to be one of those genital-obsessed guys, and I so wish I could be like some of my friends who really don't care what they have in their pants.

However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

There are other factors as well.

But it's fine to envy aspects of each other's transition arc. A woman envies that I am very masculine-looking and -sounding; I envy her bottom surgery prospects. We will probably always find that in some ways, the grass is greener.

Very true.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2014, 07:43:06 PM

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

Oh wow hon.

For some reason your post reminded me of Mary Magdalena and some of these biblical women. And I think maybe there is a beauty in being female that trans women can appreciate. That assigned women can't appreciate as much because it's all they've ever known. And because being female can feel like a curse. A painful thing...

And yet here trans women are - without all the perks of womanhood - pregnancy etc. And some even beyond the perks afforded young women. And yet they still fight for their womanhood! Well if a person's willing to give up the perks of manhood without any of the perks of womanhood (having babies, beauty, youth, etc), I reckon they're damn serious about their gender. lol

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2014, 07:43:06 PM
I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 08:18:39 PM
It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

yea, I've told my therapist many time how logic makes no sense with this issue.

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 08:17:18 PM
I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.


Oh wow hon.

For some reason your post reminded me of Mary Magdalena and some of these biblical women. And I think maybe there is a beauty in being female that trans women can appreciate. That assigned women can't appreciate as much because it's all they've ever known. And because being female can feel like a curse. A painful thing...

And yet here trans women are - without all the perks of womanhood - pregnancy etc. And some even beyond the perks afforded young women. And yet they still fight for their womanhood! Well if a person's willing to give up the perks of manhood without any of the perks of womanhood (having babies, beauty, youth, etc), I reckon they're damn serious about their gender. lol

yea, the apostle Mary Magdalena is is probably my most beloved heros

Quote from: Katrina on May 09, 2014, 11:17:01 AM
And started looking through a ton of the before and after pics and could hardly believe my jealously. :( They seem to do SO well on hormones compared to us.  I mean I know the whole "You look great!" sentiment we tell each other in our thread, but the ftm seem to by and large do significantly better job with passing off as their chosen gender than we do.  It always sucks being transgendered as opposed to simply being born in the gender we identify with to begin with. But it seems like even in these matters we drew the short stick. :(

from what I've noticed in general, MTF's SRS & BAS procedures are lots easier than FTM's phallo & breast reduction surgeries ... FTM's voice is a lot easier to be masculine compared to MTF who wants to have feminine voice (unless MTF has been training since they're kids/teens) ... FTM's face seems to get more masculine easier than MTF's feminine face ..

so if you think about the whole process , we are pretty equal lol

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying. But I think confidence has more to do with those character traits than anything and not all men possess them. I also think being trans has a lot to do with this to I know my confidence in myself was very low growing up so I wasn't assertive at all. Positive character traits come from believing in yourself and that is something a lot of us struggle with.       

Quote from: Heather on May 10, 2014, 08:51:45 PM

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying. But I think confidence has more to do with those character traits than anything and not all men possess them. I also think being trans has a lot to do with this to I know my confidence in myself was very low growing up so I wasn't assertive at all. Positive character traits come from believing in yourself and that is something a lot of us struggle with.       

I agree. I mean, obviously all boys are not brought up self-confident. I just think as a general rule, girls are taught to be less. Less, well everything. Sort of prepped for a backseat role. Whereas a boy might have really a sucky childhood, but he doesn't grow up in a world where everywhere he looks, people with his body type are depicted as less. I mean, if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

Maybe this is petty, I don't know. I have been a short woman. I get a lot of jokes but I'm also put in the "cute" category. I am going to be a *very* short guy. And being a really short guy sucks. Instead of cute I will be more of a joke. If I'm assertive I may be compared to napoleon. heh. Of course there are some really tall mtf women and that has it's issues.   think our western society does make it easier on ftms but I also think generalizations miss things. I also think pictures don't really tell us much. I may pass here in the occasional picture but in real life I just don't.... yet.

Quote from: aleon515 on May 09, 2014, 01:42:14 PM
I think guys have it easier. It has to do with the power of T, as someone mentioned. It doesn't even matter how old you are, because T works it's "magic" regardless of your age. OTOH, for the gals they are going against all the changes that are produced by T. Estrogen is more of a subtle hormone, I guess I'd say. Another thing, due to male privilege, most (but not all) FTMs don't have to convince a psychologist we're not crazy. And IME there is as much social prejudice. Men do not feel that FTMs go into their bathrooms to rape them. For real, I have been congratulated for being male, which I think is strange but oh well. The arrest rate for FTMs is more like the average for cis people, and there is no penalty (except in some areas) of walking while trans male.

When you get to GCS/ SRS the male surgeries are multiple step and harder and there are less surgeons skills at them. I also believe we lack the visibility which has it's negatives. I did not know FTMs even existed, or if they did they were statistically very very rare. I know now that isn't true.

I think FTMs have our own struggles, and sometimes the rate of change creates its own issues as well as for those who don't seem to change as much. Obviously there are the issues that all trans people face--family, work, etc.


--Jay

I never really thought about the male privilege, even after experiencing losing it first hand. Great Post.

I went to a technical secondary school, learnt welding, engineering, automotive and wood work (great skills to have) but I recently went to get a tyre replaced on my car and they treated me horribly to the point they were trying to rip me off and make my car unsafe. I don't know if I did the right thing, but I told them what they were wanting to do was Illegal and that I would have to go somewhere else. It really frustrated me.

Quote from: LittleEmily24 on May 09, 2014, 12:32:26 PM
This made me giggle because ironically i was just talking to my wife and my mom about the very fact that being male results in a world of expectations from society. Most of the time Cismen act as though being a man takes some sort of initiation rite of passage... I'm still early as hell in my transition and still look quite male, yet women everwhere I go treat me as another woman.

That is probably an echo of our earlier hominid and primate ancestors where males fought and jostled for dominance and mating rights.

One of the reasons why transitioning appeals to me is that I am tired of that crap (was never good at it anyway). Women have their own politics, but its nothing next the BS male institutions throw up.

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying.

Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.

Quote
if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

For the longest time in most cultures, he would be correct  Women were/are expected to be home makers and child bearers and little else.  It is only in the past couple of centuries that has changed, mostly because technology has permitted that division of labor to no longer be a necessity of survival.  But we still carry the physiological and sociological baggage around with us.

Well, not really sure... I think FTM's have the transition easier from a physical aspect, but I am sure the emotional level is the same for both. Given women obsess more on detail of their bodies and looks more than men I think that part is harder for an MTF. Plus as women, we are expected to be prim and proper, where as with men they are not as much. This is true for the cis population as well. So that said I think it is harder for MTF's to transition.   

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
I agree. I mean, obviously all boys are not brought up self-confident. I just think as a general rule, girls are taught to be less. Less, well everything. Sort of prepped for a backseat role. Whereas a boy might have really a sucky childhood, but he doesn't grow up in a world where everywhere he looks, people with his body type are depicted as less. I mean, if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

You will get no argument from me FA women do get the short end of the stick in this world. But I think being trans does make it harder on us being raised in the wrong gender. I know growing up a girl has to be ten times worse for an ftm just like growing up a boy was a absolutely horrible experience for me. I could go on a whole list of things I hated about being raised a male and maybe I will sometime. Not to say females have it better it was just my perspective of feeling trapped in the wrong gender.

I think of my past as a male and just want to throw up, absolutely no sense of redeemable  value.

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.

What makes you think that the two are mutually exclusive? I feel that both are needed, and I can assure you that I play nicely with others without being a doormat.

When I had repairs done on my car recently, the mechanics left things a mess in the cab. I asserted myself and had them clean it up because it's their job to clean it up. I was very pleasant about it, but I wasn't about to let it slide, and they were properly apologetic. Unless you count my pleasant demeanor, there was no room here for "cooperation"; the mistake was theirs.

Often, assertiveness and collaboration go hand in hand. A few days later, I was working with students in office hours, but I was firm about where I drew the line: At a certain point, "help" actually hinders a student's growth and improvement. I helped them but didn't simply give them answers, even when they thought I should. Still later, I was editing a book and working with one of the authors; she asked for me to do things that she didn't have time for, and I obliged. In those instances, I acted as a collaborator. But when I ran across an offensive transphobic passage in one of the readings, I asserted in no uncertain terms that it WAS offensive and needed rephrasing.

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 08:18:39 PM
It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly.

Also, what Sarah7 said....I used to post pics a lot begging for validation (I've been on HRT for like 15 months now), but now, uh, I'm a lot more wary cause I'm a totally passable.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 10, 2014, 10:13:12 PM
Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly. 

Hey that sounds like me! Except for the butterfly bit..

You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to. Some FtM guys have amazing results and I'm jealous too, but it's easy to home in on certain effects or procedures and oversimplify the overall process. I wish I could have had the right hormones as a kid so I could look my age but I'm not at all envious of the powerlessness and parental rejection that some youth suffer. Likewise, I see beautiful transwomen sometimes and wish I had tools like makeup or even the social visibility that I know is often painful, but I'd rather not daydream because that can lead to hopelessness.

We have to be really careful about making comparisons. It's too easy to get cut into pieces by the unfairness. In the bigger picture I think no matter how (or how often) we discuss the differences it mostly tends to balance out.

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.

I struggle with statements like this. Perhaps you are defining assertive in a different way then I did. I grew up in an abusive home. I had a confident exterior but in a lot of ways I was a doormat... now that I think about it, doormat is probably a bad term. It's a blaming term. But back to what I was saying... If I had never learned to be assertive I wouldn't be on the road to transition. The ability to tell the doctor what I want has changed my life. The ability to say "no" firmly has saved my life. How can you collaborate and cooperate if you don't even have a voice?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 10, 2014, 10:13:12 PM
Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly.

Also, what Sarah7 said....I used to post pics a lot begging for validation (I've been on HRT for like 15 months now), but now, uh, I'm a lot more wary cause I'm a totally passable.

It's something I struggle with internally, a lot of girls do just successfully go on with their lives in stealth and leave the whole trans part behind them. So how does one live stealth and still be supportive of the community. Anyway I envy those that are trans and proud and have no issue with being out and public about it. Our younger and less experienced need role models. Sadly it's not really possible for those in stealth to post pics on a very public forum like this. (and in cases like yours where you know exactly where you stand as far passability goes there doesn't seem much point)

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.

That is a common misconception. You can be assertive without being a jerk about it. I think the real problem is that there are so many people that are far too stubborn to let someone offer an opinion or correct them when they are truly wrong about something. Their pride gets wounded as a result and they say: "Well! You're just a jerk/->-bleeped-<-/bitch", etc.

I'm as stubborn as they come but I am also willing to admit when I am wrong. Life works much more smoothly if you can let go of your foolish pride and admit to your faults when it it truly IS your fault.

Hi.

For myself theres no difference between male or female and as for T or E you may not know much about us and how our hormones work both together male T and Female E.

just a small matter of cause is they are not the only ones in our bodys that work in our favour   as i know for some of us and i know myself of changes that have taken place with out added  synthic meds or drugs.

Being intersexed can be some thing that is good when you understand us and how our bodys come together and work,

And just as a side line T for myself has been a big help in many ways  though i know many Trans people dont get that and they really dont wont T to be part  of themselfs,

So the bottom line for myself is im a intersexed female with some masculine features,  no big deal and its about accepting who you are , because others do of myself, .So we can be different and accepted as normal. .......

...noeleena...

Quote from: Felix on May 10, 2014, 10:40:19 PM
You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to.

Felix, your experience actually points out a big issue. One of the big problems that trans people have is if they don't "pass" because passing itself has privilege. Some women do indeed "pass" and really well, but other never really will. Very few trans guys have this issue, but it is not unheard of. If you "pass", you basically have one less issue (or perhaps several).

Although in my mind  Felix you look male, the problem is you don't look male at your chronological age (I think this might be true for many trans guys, but it kind of makes a difference how old you are to start). I might not look my chronological age, but at my ancient age it doesn't matter and is more of an advantage. Getting read as "butch lesbian" is an issue in some areas that are very LGBT friendly. They are used to seeing a lot of butch lesbians, who dress male. So of course people are being polite, but not seeing us as male, which can be frustrating.

I feel there are social hurdles that a lot of people talked about, esp for those of us who do not buy into the gender stereotypes. I feel there are expectations there re: male behavior, that I even see spouted on susans. I don't care to be, never will be some tough unfeeling male. Maybe why I seem to be read as gay (of course I may be gay but what they are reading is gender presentation or something). I feel there are disadvantages to being raised as a girl, but there were advantages too.

I don't think assertive =a**hole. I think if you are nasty about it then it's aggression. You don't have to be physical to be aggressive. And in fact, I know quite a few women who are aggressive, as well.


--Jay

Quote from: Felix on May 10, 2014, 10:40:19 PM
You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to. Some FtM guys have amazing results and I'm jealous too, but it's easy to home in on certain effects or procedures and oversimplify the overall process.

Felix, before I read this thread I'd seen another post by you and was thinking to myself "what a totally handsome guy he is" and was thinking that I'd really like to tell you that... but that it might seem a bit weird and stalkerish if I did...but, um, I guess I did just say it...so, um, yeah :icon_redface:  :)

At the risk of following digressions too much, I will say that my life is much better when I manage to behave in ways that feel overly aggressive but that others seem to respond to as normal. When I am more outgoing and confrontational I am more likely to get what I need and more likely to get along with random males in public.

I do have passing privilege and I hope I never take that for granted. If I didn't have a child I would probably just learn to see teenaged and college-aged kids as peers, and maybe would never even think of my apparent youth as a barrier. It might be that my difficulties are an unfortunate but rare coincidence.

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 03:09:45 AM
Felix, before I read this thread I'd seen another post by you and was thinking to myself "what a totally handsome guy he is" and was thinking that I'd really like to tell you that... but that it might seem a bit weird and stalkerish if I did...but, um, I guess I did just say it...so, um, yeah :icon_redface:  :)

That's really nice and I wish you and others could meet me alone once in awhile so I could be more than just somebody's dad. Having to voice all the details feels like such a letdown. :P

Felix, you seem to still be living in the Bible Belt. What a rundown on your everyday experiences with bureaucracies.

The youthful appearance can be a real disadvantage. At my community college, I'm still read as a student sometimes. I have learned to open with a standard "I'm Professor Arch, and . . ." whenever I need to talk to a stranger in another department--or even in my own.

I guess this is rather the opposite of trans women who face being taken less and less seriously as they age.

I think the reason why the changes are more successful for FTMs is because being a woman is the default state for the human body. This is seen in those XY people with testosterone insensitivity, whose testicles do not descend and appear phenotypically female. Genitalia and a little breast growth excepting, men and women share approximately the same bodies until late puberty where male changes cause a divergence from this. As a side note, this is a significant contributing factor to how MTFs may look younger than their age; they don't get the bone changes if they start hormone therapy later than this as the bone structures are set. They have the other changes and presentation of a male, but the bone and body structure of a younger male.

When one takes T as a person with female physiology, one instigates those changes. When one takes E and suppresses T one is trying to reverse them. Its clear to see that one is more successful than the other.  As the one major reversal in the ftm camp, take breast growth as an example; The E instigates the change and breast growth is relatively successful in MTFs. The reversal of this is less successful and though one might lose some fat, the  breast growth is largely irreversible without surgery. In MTFs, the changes that have been instigated by the T are facial bone structures including brow ridges, nose width, jaw etc. bone structures in the body making the body generally taller and wider with bigger hands and feet, increase in muscle mass, hair growth and thickening, thickening of the vocal chords, formation of the adams apple, male pattern hair loss etc. Some are partially reversible with hormones but most require other interventions.

As the male condition is a divergence from the natural female state, for MTFs there are fewer changes to instigate and more changes to reverse. As a FTM there are more to instigate and less to reverse.  This is why they have a harder time.

Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2014, 03:14:57 AM
At the risk of following digressions too much, I will say that my life is much better when I manage to behave in ways that feel overly aggressive but that others seem to respond to as normal. When I am more outgoing and confrontational I am more likely to get what I need and more likely to get along with random males in public.

I do have passing privilege and I hope I never take that for granted. If I didn't have a child I would probably just learn to see teenaged and college-aged kids as peers, and maybe would never even think of my apparent youth as a barrier. It might be that my difficulties are an unfortunate but rare coincidence.

Having read this and your previous post, I can say that I deal with the same issue. I've only been on hormones for 2 years, so not as long as you, but I look way too young to be in university. First year, tops, so when people find out I'm working on a Master's, they start getting suspicious. Like one guy I ran into thought my brother was older, and when we told him I was actually 25 - he started really interrogating my physical appearance and asking me why I didn't have the same amount of beard shadow, etc.

I don't know if this will help you feel better about it, but I hope it does.  In my early 30s, in the last years I tried to be in the world as a guy, I looked 15 years younger than I actually was, meaning when I was 32 I looked about 18 years old, so whenever I told somebody my age it would be met with shock and then people would joke with me or say I carried my age well, and those sorts of things.  I always took it to be affirming and it always felt nice.

I know for you all it would carry some baggage due to your transition and that maybe you might feel like it's a sign you're not there yet, but it isn't a bad thing to look young, imo.  Most guys I don't think would take it that way.  And most of the women that would comment on my age were actually being flirtatious about it.  I never had the feeling anybody thought I was FTM, because that thought wasn't even in the same universe as my mind.

Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
Having read this and your previous post, I can say that I deal with the same issue. I've only been on hormones for 2 years, so not as long as you, but I look way too young to be in university. First year, tops, so when people find out I'm working on a Master's, they start getting suspicious. Like one guy I ran into thought my brother was older, and when we told him I was actually 25 - he started really interrogating my physical appearance and asking me why I didn't have the same amount of beard shadow, etc.

Up until I hit second puberty in my late 20's my sister, who is CIS was able to grow a thicker fuller beard than I ever could due to her having a hormonal imbalance. She had a beard shadow when I was still "baby faced" with my lack of ability to grow a beard. Interesting enough people gave me TONS of crap back then for not having a beard at work because I didn't fit into the typical macho, pump iron and grow a chuck Norris beard mold. Then I was able to grow some gruff and put on some muscle and after that I didn't get made fun of which is just ridiculous that most people think than man=beard. 

What intrigues me the most is now that I'm transitioning but not out at work I don't get crap from having a very feminine appearance, yet I still work at the same place as before. I've nearly fully lasered off my beard, I've been on HRT for 5 months and have very smooth skin & no acne, I have my eyebrows waxed in a very feminine way and am about to go full female eyebrow next time I get my hair cut, I wear ear ring studs and have lost a lot of weight. Most of all I have almost A cup breasts and still not one single person has given me any crap at all and I don't get it. My only guess is that people at work know but don't want to face the reality of me transitioning at work yet or that they are just waiting on me to say something when I'm ready.

At 30 years old I still get carded at bars and that's in male mode or what ever visage I can call male mode that I do haha. Secretly though, I relish it when someone says that there is no way that I'm 30 and then I show them my ID. Until I get my ID and gender marker changed I'll never step foot in a bar when I'm out and about.

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
...But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this?...

Yes. Amazon Women on the Moon. If you don't believe me, look it up!

Quote from: Suziack on May 11, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
Yes. Amazon Women on the Moon. If you don't believe me, look it up!

I am Amazon woman ! but on Earth  :police:

Quote from: Arch on May 11, 2014, 03:42:56 AM
Felix, you seem to still be living in the Bible Belt. What a rundown on your everyday experiences with bureaucracies.

The youthful appearance can be a real disadvantage. At my community college, I'm still read as a student sometimes. I have learned to open with a standard "I'm Professor Arch, and . . ." whenever I need to talk to a stranger in another department--or even in my own.

I guess this is rather the opposite of trans women who face being taken less and less seriously as they age.

Yes, it seems like a like many trans guys are seen as younger than our chronological age. It's an advantage at my age, I am old enough now that I am seen as a "gentlemen". Not sure I would personally use this term as I don't quite identify as a man, being a little less binary. It does, however, get me taken seriously when I pass. Only once was I ever made fun of and it seems that I might have been in a rather dodgy neighborhood, perhaps whoever it was didn't take me as masculine enough, but still saw me as male. Or perhaps saw me as gay.

--Jay

def ftms look younger than their age, i'm 23 and probably look 15 or 16 (the voice doesn't help either) lol which i guess when I get older works well cause I'll look young? I can't wait to be able to grow a beard though

I hear the guys here on looking your age... definitely cannot underestimate that. I rmemeber growing up as a boy and at some point just stopping being able to get the privilege of being perceived as my actual age. People stopping me and asking me if i was old enough to drive at 20. Or carding me to get my own prescriptions. Everyone always always talking down to me or giving me very bizarre looks in certain settings... or like, going to lunch during the high school rush and realizing to everyone else, i was just another crazy kid... lol

It's hard to totally mind though... I'm so torn between wanting to look really young forever and wanting to be respected as an adult... lol :D

I never hated looking young, I kind of liked it, but then I never wanted that "man-respect."   If anybody ever gave it to me it made me feel so icky.  In retrospect, that was probably dysphoria before I had a word for it.   So yeah, I'm probably not the one to say how an ftm should feel about it.

Quote from: Jen on May 11, 2014, 01:32:50 PM
I don't know if this will help you feel better about it, but I hope it does.  In my early 30s, in the last years I tried to be in the world as a guy, I looked 15 years younger than I actually was, meaning when I was 32 I looked about 18 years old, so whenever I told somebody my age it would be met with shock and then people would joke with me or say I carried my age well, and those sorts of things.  I always took it to be affirming and it always felt nice.

I know for you all it would carry some baggage due to your transition and that maybe you might feel like it's a sign you're not there yet, but it isn't a bad thing to look young, imo.  Most guys I don't think would take it that way.  And most of the women that would comment on my age were actually being flirtatious about it.  I never had the feeling anybody thought I was FTM, because that thought wasn't even in the same universe as my mind.

That does help. :) I am trying to get myself into that mindset, like, this is just the age I look and other people aren't going to read anything into it. You're right about the baggage thing. I guess it's kind of like when a cis person gets misgendered, they might be a bit upset but they can laugh it off way easier than I ever could, or any other trans person could. It's hard to get that confidence as a trans person.

Quote from: Megumi on May 11, 2014, 02:36:06 PM
Up until I hit second puberty in my late 20's my sister, who is CIS was able to grow a thicker fuller beard than I ever could due to her having a hormonal imbalance. She had a beard shadow when I was still "baby faced" with my lack of ability to grow a beard. Interesting enough people gave me TONS of crap back then for not having a beard at work because I didn't fit into the typical macho, pump iron and grow a chuck Norris beard mold. Then I was able to grow some gruff and put on some muscle and after that I didn't get made fun of which is just ridiculous that most people think than man=beard. 

What intrigues me the most is now that I'm transitioning but not out at work I don't get crap from having a very feminine appearance, yet I still work at the same place as before. I've nearly fully lasered off my beard, I've been on HRT for 5 months and have very smooth skin & no acne, I have my eyebrows waxed in a very feminine way and am about to go full female eyebrow next time I get my hair cut, I wear ear ring studs and have lost a lot of weight. Most of all I have almost A cup breasts and still not one single person has given me any crap at all and I don't get it. My only guess is that people at work know but don't want to face the reality of me transitioning at work yet or that they are just waiting on me to say something when I'm ready.

At 30 years old I still get carded at bars and that's in male mode or what ever visage I can call male mode that I do haha. Secretly though, I relish it when someone says that there is no way that I'm 30 and then I show them my ID. Until I get my ID and gender marker changed I'll never step foot in a bar when I'm out and about.

Haha, that is funny about your sister (although unfortunate for her, I suppose, different women feel differently about such things). It's like my brother, he is cisgender, 21, and gets mistaken for a woman on the phone and at the drive through almost all the time. There are other guys (or I should say, male assigned at birth anyway) like me, they just seem to be less noticeable...I guess I'm not really looking for them because I'm too insecure about myself. :P Or I just assume they're high school kids.

Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 09:52:14 AM
I never hated looking young, I kind of liked it, but then I never wanted that "man-respect."   If anybody ever gave it to me it made me feel so icky.  In retrospect, that was probably dysphoria before I had a word for it.   So yeah, I'm probably not the one to say how an ftm should feel about it.

I do like looking young because people seem to expect less of me? Haha. I think. Respect would be nice, but eh.

Young, but need Manrespect(tm)?  - nothing a good beardy beard and sharp suit can't fix!

I was jealous of the transbros at first- but I quickly realized that the benefits of t on 2ndary sex characteristics like voice, beard etc cannot outweigh the imperfection of surgery aspect.  We have hideable scars and a single op that gives us an undercarriage that can some times fool gynos.  Three ops, skin grafts, pumps... dudes have it tougher by far in that respect.

We all got handed a raw deal- so now I don't see much of a point in worrying about who got a worse sh $ t sandwich.

I do sneak over and check out the badassery too.