Susan's Place Transgender Resources

BACKGROUND: I was encouraged by a close friend to get involved in our local PFLAG chapter. Yes, I was warned thoroughly warned by people on this forum that PFLAG would not be welcoming of trans people. But it's really the only LGBT resource in our community. My friend, who's on the steering committee told me they really wanted to make their chapter more welcoming for trans people. After going to a couple meetings, I went back to my friend and told her that I was concerned about how I was fitting in. At both meetings, someone had come up to me and asked whether I was Trans. These people meant well, but I thought some education about sensitivities might be appropriate.

I suggested we schedule a sort of teach-in where I, and a male trans person if possible, educate the group on what trans people go through and why we may be sensitive to certain behaviors. I imagined I'd prepare and give a presentation, preferably with visual aids. They thought it was a great idea, though there didn't seem to be any movement for a few months.

Last month my friend contacted me again, and said they were going ahead with it. There would be three people on the panel, me, a trans guy, and a cisgender author who wrote a book based on research she had done on gender. I wasn't thrilled with the third entry, but I went along.

Last night I found out the cisgender author would be the main attraction, and that the two trans people would be given a chance to "share our experiences" once the author was finished. I also was told that there was a list of points they would like me to cover. Finally, there would be no visual aids available, since I would only be discussing my experience.

I'm seriously thinking of backing out of the panel. It's in four weeks, so it sort of leaves them high and dry.

THE QUESTION: Do I do the panel or not?

PROs:
* Gives me a chance to educate people in a small way
* Won't be letting down my friend
* I don't want to be a "prima donna" who backs out if she doesn't get her share of the attention.
CONs:
* Don't want to be a footnote in a program on gender led by a cis person.
* Not sure how effective I'd be in getting any kind of message across without visual aids.
* Really wasn't what I offered to do.

I think it's acceptable to back out here. I would make a point of saying something too. Along the lines of "I can see why you want to share the author's work, but I really feel that a panel about transgender people should have the voices of trans people first and foremost, rather than just as a supplement." I think it's OK to have the author on the panel, imo, but I don't think it's in any way acceptable to have them speak about transgender people and have actual trans people in the background.

I think you'd be within your rights to back out.

But talk it over with your friend first and express in no uncertain terms your concerns about giving the floor to the "cis expert". You wouldn't be a prima dona - but you'd need to be able to explain clearly why it is is marginalising. It would be like having a straight author talking about gay life experiences.

Sheesh, it's bizarre isn't it? I went to see a talk by Cate McGregor (a prominent Australian transwoman) and Chaz Bono at a fringe Sydney Mardi Gras event. The guests were interviews by a former gender counsellor (a cis woman) - almost felt like a counselling session. Plus they topped and tailed the evening with some drag performances which, while they were entertaining, were way out of context.  :-\

Maybe you should talk to your friend first, and explain that you think you and the other should be the main part of it, and then let the author talk about whatever.
   Then if they don't change it, then back out.  It doesn't make much sense to have a cisgender person talk about transgender topics, trying to explain how it feels.

Quote from: _wut_ on May 14, 2014, 04:40:32 AM
Maybe you should talk to your friend first, and explain that you think you and the other should be the main part of it, and then let the author talk about whatever.
   Then if they don't change it, then back out.  It doesn't make much sense to have a cisgender person talk about transgender topics, trying to explain how it feels.

^

This, I think. If there's time, this is probably best. if there's not, back out, and politely explain why.

Of course authors want to sell books, but it seems to me that if this one has any genuine sensitivity to trans issues, she'd be OK with "equal billing." Is there a way you can contact her directly about this?

If she insists on center stage, then you might consider participating in the talk and using some of your time to explain, in a non-confrontational way, why that is marginalizing for trans folk. It might be a teachable moment if you can do it... pleasantly.

Please don't take any of what I write the wrong way - it's a pep talk and it's supposed to fire you up.

I'm going to suggest that you don't back out.

I can see why you might be a little annoyed at this - you suggested the event, you offered your assistance, and it seems like they've excluded you - but stick with it.  I think you're right to be angry, but (forgive me for this) it does sound like you're having a bit of a hissy fit.  ;)

So you're not the star of the show.  Okay, that's got to be frustrating for you, but it sounds like the group has gone to a lot of effort to organize a program, and it sounds like they need/want you to participate.  Surely you can add a huge amount of value by sharing your experiences (and sharing them without visual aids)?  Were you expecting them to organize the "Suzifrommd Show" or "An Audience with Suzifrommd" on your behalf, because from your post it sounds like you weren't involved at all in the planning - just the initial suggestion.  Is it a surprise that it didn't turn out exactly as you wanted?

And so what if it's a cis author?  Can a cis person not be highly-informed about trans issues?  My doctor isn't trans, but he can treat me.  My therapist isn't trans, but she has seen and helped more trans people than I'll ever see.  It's perhaps something uniquely trans, the idea that nobody can speak on our behalf unless they're one of us - e.g. the whole Jared Leto thing and the bickering over whether a real trans person should have played the role of Rayon in DBC, and that distracted everyone away from the real issues trans people face.  Similarly, there's some rather poor trans spokespeople and trans role models who should be locked away and never seen or heard from again because they do more harm to us than good.  Don't make the same mistake.  If the author is full of crap, make sure you tell the audience why.  Educate people.

What you need to be doing right now is:

- Read the book by the cis author (if you haven't already)
- Start working on your responses to the talking points
- Stop complaining

Pep talk over.

I think if you back out, you'll miss a really good opportunity.  I think the group will have a collective IQ high enough to realize that yes, it's a cis author, and yes, the author's work is not necessarily based upon personal experience.  They'll understand that your own personal experiences are perhaps the most valuable part of the evening, and I promise the audience will be asking you questions at the end.

Don't underestimate the impact you'll be able to have on this group.  Take a few days, think it over, and try to make the best of a less-than-perfect situation.   :)

I agree with ----------.  This is a real opportunity to share your experience, perspective and opinion.  Read the author's work. Connecting with them prior may make you more comfortable but IMHO don't miss this opportunity.  You write well, you communicate well and there is a lot that you can contribute to the evening.

Aisla

Quote from: __________It's perhaps something uniquely trans, the idea that nobody can speak on our behalf unless they're one of us - e.g. the whole Jared Leto thing and the bickering over whether a real trans person should have played the role of Rayon in DBC, and that distracted everyone away from the real issues trans people face.

I don't think it's unique to trans people; it's a pretty normal attitude among any marginalized group of people, and rightly so. If a group in my city decided to educate itself about the lives of the Hmong people who live here, it would be very offensive if the main speaker were Anglo, no matter how well-informed and educated they were. There are plenty of smart, articulate people among that community (as in most), and it's unimaginable to me that any organization would pick someone of a different ethnicity to speak for them.

As to bickering within a group -- yes, it's a huge distraction from important issues; it also happens in almost every group, with whatever agenda, that I've ever been part of. Getting people to fight among themselves is easy, in part because it's so much safer for people to let their anger out on their own kind. This is used very consciously by those in power as a way to maintain it: "divide and conquer" is a strategy that's been around a long, long time.

I agree that reading and critiquing the author's work would be fine preparation. If you decided to speak directly to whether her presence as the main event is appropriate, a good way to do it could be to frame it as an instance of the trans experience you're meant to talk about, and do so in terms of how it makes you feel.

If you are feeling mischievous you could viciously criticize the author's book during your "share your experience" time.  >:-)

I think you definitely should put your foot down and say WTF?  The committee was probably only thinking about what looks more impressive on the meeting minutes than what would actually be more useful and what you had intended.

Quote from: Tysilio on May 14, 2014, 12:26:30 PM
I don't think it's unique to trans people; it's a pretty normal attitude among any marginalized group of people, and rightly so. If a group in my city decided to educate itself about the lives of the Hmong people who live here, it would be very offensive if the main speaker were Anglo, no matter how well-informed and educated they were. There are plenty of smart, articulate people among that community (as in most), and it's unimaginable to me that any organization would pick someone of a different ethnicity to speak for them.

I agree.  It's not the best way to do things, and there are articulate members of marginalized groups who relish the opportunity to educate others.  But we don't have a blank slate here; the program is already organized, and I'm not sure how withdrawing would be a better option than sticking with it if the goal is to educate the group.  A weak voice that is heard is far more powerful than a strong voice which isn't given the opportunity to speak at all.

It's not an ideal situation.  But it could lead to bigger and better things.  Suzifrommd could well end up being the "go-to" trans person in the group and have many, many opportunities to educate and inform others on her own terms in the future.  Consider this a foot in the door?

I'd be interested to find out which author we're talking about here.  Some are extremely good and would be an asset to any discussion about trans issues, regardless of their own gender.

As a side note, I'd suggest that it would be extremely damaging and unprofessional to ambush the author at the event.  That's one surefire way to give us all a bad name.  If the book is way off base, there are polite and constructive ways to discuss it.

QuoteAs a side note, I'd suggest that it would be extremely damaging and unprofessional to ambush the author at the event.  That's one surefire way to give us all a bad name.  If the book is way off base, there are polite and constructive ways to discuss it.

Couldn't agree more.  That's one of many reasons why I think that talking about one's own feelings, rather than attacking anyone, is a better way to approach something like this.

"I think X's  book [is an excellent introduction to/has some problems with its] analysis of what it's like to be trans in this society, but that's not really what I want to talk about.  As a trans person, I feel marginalized when people assume they know more than I do about what it's like to be me, and it feels like that's part of what's gone on here today. I almost didn't come today, because I felt angry and hurt that.....  But I decided that it was important to share these feelings with you all, because this is a common experience for members of minority groups."

Or words to that effect....  ::)

This is a bit of a... convoluted situation at best.

In my opinion (and in no way am I an expert), you should talk with the organizers of this event. Ask them what kind of time frames are expected of each participant. If it looks like it's 'oh, and by the way, here are a couple of trans individuals to talk along the author for five minutes', maybe you should express your concerns. I'm not opposed to a cis author, though I do recognize the potential hegemony is such a gesture.

I don't think the answer is as simple as pull out or stay in at this point. I think you need to gather more information (what are the stances of the author?, what kind of voice will I have?, what issues are we addressing?, etc) and then from there make your decision about what to do.

Best of luck dear, and I hope everything works out for you.

I agree with _____________. This is a great opportunity to share your experiences. You may not be heading the bill but you can make a difference if you go ahead.

I don't agree with the tone of _______ ("how special we are aren't we"). (Perhaps that wasn't the intention.) I don't think that was the point of Suzi's statement. I think the point is that this is cissexist to have the cis person leading the discussion and doing most of the discussion (and perhaps, I don't know) giving out misinfo on trans people which will be hard to undo by the trans people since as author and expert, she will have most "authority" in the group. I'd rather see trans people leading in this sort of thing.

I've done many panels and I am a member of the panel, but the person running the panel is trans. It's a whole different feel and point.

Being without visual aids is another point. I can do it and am very visual but I am able to keep the visualization within my head as I present. If I couldn't do that? Well I can talk about my own experience. The problem is with one trans woman and one trans man it might lead one to conclude that trans women have experiences like your's and trans men have experiences like his. Not at all true.

Can you find out what she thinks on stuff and if she is really an ally? To me it would make a difference? But it's still cissesexist. Might be hard to get a book at this point, but perhaps it's an ebook.
I agree it could be a teachable moment, but I don't much like it.

--Jay

the issue is that there's a cis gender person talking about transgender issues when there's two transgender people there. it's how people get mad when a heterosexual try to educate people on homosexuality. it's great to have allys and w/e but when the actual people a part of the community are drowned out by the cisgender and heterosexual people, especially when they have a chance to have a voice..it can only be seen as a movement for allys and not the actual LGBT+ community.

i wouldn't drop out though because it is a chance to share your experience. i went to a trans day of remembrance here and it was hosted by a (presumed) cis gender woman representing the school it was being held at. she talked about trans issues, resources but also had several trans men and women speak about their experiences. it was still good but as long as your story is heard and people get to see how it is for someone who is trans, i think it's a good teaching moment.

i just dont understand how so many people are having issues with PFLAG and them not including trans people. my local PFLAG is actually really good at including the T part of LGBT. there's many events for awareness and help within them and coffee meetings (like a giant therapy group for LGBT) include many trans people. they were the ones who actually got me onto gender journeys which really helped because you talk to other trans people who are questioning, etc. and it becomes very helpful when you're around people going through the same things as you.

all in all i hope it works out and you end up educating and evolving your local PFLAG to be more respectful and not so ignorant on transgender people.

From what I have heard PFLAG is a *very* mixed bag. In some places excellent and others abysmal. Too bad.

--Jay

Quote from: JamesG on May 14, 2014, 01:21:51 PM
The committee was probably only thinking about what looks more impressive on the meeting minutes than what would actually be more useful and what you had intended.

This. Exactly.

-Teg

Quote from: PoeticHeart on May 14, 2014, 02:43:42 PM
what are the stances of the author?, what kind of voice will I have?, what issues are we addressing?

Quote from: aleon515 on May 14, 2014, 05:52:45 PM
Can you find out what she thinks on stuff and if she is really an ally? To me it would make a difference?

I've heard her speak about her book before and have met her in person.

Her "book learning" on trans is ok. She's read all the books, knows the words, etc. But her book was written about a decade ago based on speaking with people who were educated about transgender even before that. She seemed clueless about the modern thinking on trans. She had a very medicalized view of transition, for example. Her impression seemed to be that it was more about hormones and surgery than it was about social stuff. On the whole I thought she had a lot of knowledge, and not a lot of insight.

---

Thank you all for your input and comments. I think the true issues are crystalizing in my mind. Here's the way it boils down:
* I'm making a sacrifice by outing myself in front of a crowd.
* I will only do that if I think it will have a commensurate impact.
* The fact that I'm making a sacrifice entitles me to set some conditions on my involvement.
* Following an author who is the main event, being time limited, and with no visual component, I question whether I will make enough of the points I want to make to justify it.
* I don't want to out myself simply to provide color to what essentially seems like a book promotion.

The fact that the author is cisgender is probably not relevant to any of that, except in so far as it EATS AT ME that cisgender people believe that they know enough about us to tell us who we are.

It's at the root of pretty much ALL the problems I read in these forums - gatekeeping, acceptance by families, schools, workplaces, problems with changing documentation, issues with insurance, anti-bathroom bills, all of it.

It all boils down, IMO, to the fact that cisgender people feel perfectly comfortable appointing themselves and each other experts on our lives and identities.

And I'm sick of it. I really don't want to be part of it, and I'm really, really disappointed at the leadership of our PFLAG chapter. I've talked to them about this and I think subordinating the two trans people on the panel to a cisgender "expert" is such a POWERFULLY NEGATIVE MESSAGE, that nothing, NOTHING, I say there could adequately counter it.

I think I might actually do more effective educating by explaining why my being on the panel won't be helpful or effective, than anything I might say as part of it.

Suzi, what you wrote is well thought out and makes a great deal of sense.

It makes the whole thing a lot worse, to me, that the book in question is ten years old, in part because it's very outdated, but also because it means that this isn't some author whose main interest is promoting her newly published book, possibly on a book tour sponsored by her publisher. Nope -- she's promoting herself as an expert, and if your PFLAG chapter is paying her to speak, that's just damn insulting.

QuoteI think I might actually do more effective educating by explaining why my being on the panel won't be helpful or effective, than anything I might say as part of it.

I suspect you are right.

Quote from: Tysilio on May 14, 2014, 06:59:36 PM
Suzi, what you wrote is well thought out and makes a great deal of sense.

:)

Quote from: Tysilio on May 14, 2014, 06:59:36 PM
Nope -- she's promoting herself as an expert, and if your PFLAG chapter is paying her to speak, that's just damn insulting.

Actually, I don't think they're paying her, or if they are, it's hardly more than travel money. I'm sure PFLAG brought her in because she DIDN'T cost them much.

If I correctly read between the lines at her last engagement, she really wants to write another book on gender, or modernize her old one, and she's trying to drum up interest and support for the project.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 14, 2014, 06:48:41 PMHer "book learning" on trans is ok. She's read all the books, knows the words, etc. But her book was written about a decade ago based on speaking with people who were educated about transgender even before that. She seemed clueless about the modern thinking on trans. She had a very medicalized view of transition, for example. Her impression seemed to be that it was more about hormones and surgery than it was about social stuff. On the whole I thought she had a lot of knowledge, and not a lot of insight.

. . .

The fact that the author is cisgender is probably not relevant to any of that, except in so far as it EATS AT ME that cisgender people believe that they know enough about us to tell us who we are.

It's at the root of pretty much ALL the problems I read in these forums - gatekeeping, acceptance by families, schools, workplaces, problems with changing documentation, issues with insurance, anti-bathroom bills, all of it.

It all boils down, IMO, to the fact that cisgender people feel perfectly comfortable appointing themselves and each other experts on our lives and identities.

And I'm sick of it. I really don't want to be part of it, and I'm really, really disappointed at the leadership of our PFLAG chapter. I've talked to them about this and I think subordinating the two trans people on the panel to a cisgender "expert" is such a POWERFULLY NEGATIVE MESSAGE, that nothing, NOTHING, I say there could adequately counter it.

I think I might actually do more effective educating by explaining why my being on the panel won't be helpful or effective, than anything I might say as part of it.

That makes a great deal of sense to me now, and in light of that it might be worth reconsidering your participation in the presentation and the group if it makes you uncomfortable.

Quote from: aleon515 on May 14, 2014, 05:52:45 PM
I don't agree with the tone of _______ ("how special we are aren't we"). (Perhaps that wasn't the intention.)

Absolutely not my intention.  Even with my little disclaimer at the start of the post, it did sound rather mean.  Apologies for any offense caused - it was one of those responses where I kinda knew I shouldn't have hit the "post" button, but did so anyway.  Re-reading it, I think you're right, aleon515 - it did come across the wrong way (in a big way), and ended up being a touch inappropriate.  Note to self: when in doubt, don't post!

Anyway, I'd still be inclined to honor the commitment.  Ok, so it doesn't work out.  What's the worst that can happen?  A wasted opportunity.

The program will go ahead at this point regardless of suzifrommd's participation, so the author's message will be heard.  I still think it would be far more constructive to address these issues head-on.  Take the opportunity to explain the gatekeeping etc.  It's a bad situation, but that happens sometimes.

Again, sorry if the purpose of my post didn't come across as precisely as I had intended.  I was trying to urge cooperation rather than isolation, as I'm a firm believer in the idea that we make the most difference when working together, even if not under ideal conditions.  Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 14, 2014, 06:48:41 PM
I've heard her speak about her book before and have met her in person.

Her "book learning" on trans is ok. She's read all the books, knows the words, etc. But her book was written about a decade ago based on speaking with people who were educated about transgender even before that. She seemed clueless about the modern thinking on trans. She had a very medicalized view of transition, for example. Her impression seemed to be that it was more about hormones and surgery than it was about social stuff. On the whole I thought she had a lot of knowledge, and not a lot of insight.

---

And I'm sick of it. I really don't want to be part of it, and I'm really, really disappointed at the leadership of our PFLAG chapter. I've talked to them about this and I think subordinating the two trans people on the panel to a cisgender "expert" is such a POWERFULLY NEGATIVE MESSAGE, that nothing, NOTHING, I say there could adequately counter it.

I think I might actually do more effective educating by explaining why my being on the panel won't be helpful or effective, than anything I might say as part of it.

Well, if you decide to do it, at least you know her particular viewpt. Yeah, sounds old fashioned and "book learning oriented" and not an actual advocate.  (I think that an advocate would not take the spotlight, even if it were given, but I doubt that this person will do avoid it.) I totally see why you wouldn't want to do it.

Yes, ______ I see your point actually. I just think the point ignores what Suzi is saying here. I don't feel that having a cis (outmoded) person as "leader" of the discussion will accomplish anything of teaching this audience. Given absolutely perfect circumstances it might be possible for someone to change the atmosphere, but certainly not even close to a guarantee. I see this as an antagonistic situation, which isn't everybody's preference. I'm not sure I would do this. 


--Jay

Suzi

Given the additional information I tend to agree that you should not proceed with the panel.  If the author is ill informed, is presenting a less than contemporary view, but still has prime billing then it feels like a lose lose situation

Aisla

Suzi, would you consider pushing for "demoting" the author to a supporting role? I agree with you that making an outdated cisgender author the headliner over actual trans people is both insulting and possibly misinformative, and hopefully you can express this to the organizer beforehand. If the author refuses to take a supporting role then it both reflects badly on her supposed Ally status and maybe SHE will back out.

The only benefit I could possibly see to having an outdated cis gender author is if your audience couldn't accept your own first-person experiences.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 14, 2014, 07:05:25 PM
If I correctly read between the lines at her last engagement, she really wants to write another book on gender, or modernize her old one, and she's trying to drum up interest and support for the project.

So, teach them all a lesson. Go and give no warning of what you intend to say then stand up and start with

"Here in this meeting is an example of how trans people are marginalised. In a meeting about what it means to be trans I am the supporting speaker and not the main speaker. The main speaker is a cis-person. Your opinions about what I feel and what I think are being influenced by someone who has no first hand experience of what being trans really means. Meeting trans people, writing about trans people and knowing trans people is no substitute for being trans"

I would then put the following point

"How would those of you who are gay feel about being the supporting speaker in a meeting where a straight person describes the gay experience? Think about that."

At this point you might get asked to leave.....   ;)  If I had the opportunity, I would do it without a second thought, but I refuse to cross the Atlantic to give a talk.

Wow, you really touched a nerve in many of us.

My first reaction was that you were being asked to be an attraction in a circus event. My second thought was questioning the reason for the event -- not the one that has been told to you, but the one the event organizers really have in mind. Is it educating? Who are we educating? What is the intended outcome?

But then I began to examine the depth of my reaction,  all my assumptions and internal prejudices, and try to understand why am I reacting this way. Perhaps it's that I still believe other are out to exploit me in some way. And that's really not fair. It really comes down to what would be MY goal in participating and can I achieve it. If it's something I believe in, then what others may have in mind is really their business. My inclination to antagonize the author is really a reflection of the fact that I have some work to do with me.

Thanks for the opportunity to see that I still have work ahead of me.

Quote from: vukapg on May 16, 2014, 10:19:33 AM
Go and give no warning of what you intend to say then stand up and start with

"Here in this meeting is an example of how trans people are marginalised...

I hope you were joking. You did pick up that the organizer was a close friend of mine, right?

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 16, 2014, 01:03:43 PM
I hope you were joking.

Nope. I have a sense-of-humour bypass fitted

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 16, 2014, 01:03:43 PM
You did pick up that the organizer was a close friend of mine, right?

No I did not see that. In that case put the argument I outlined to your close friend privately. The only people who can speak about what it is like to be trans are trans folk.

I'd like to present another point of view. I agree that only trans people can speak about certain aspects of being trans. But an author's talent is to gatherer information from the appropriate sources (like us) and then present it in a readable and understandable manner. And based on all the information that is gathered (by speaking with a broad enough section of the trans community) she can perhaps speak more generally and clearly about the diversity and spectrum of being trans-gendered.  I can speak about my point in that spectrum with authority, but anything I say will be autobiographical in nature and may not apply to you. (Just consider the various opinions and experiences documented on this forum..) To the extent that the author is not misrepresenting herself or overstating her qualifications, I think it benefits us. And hopefully, in the process, we gain an ally and advocate who can speak to that segment of the population who would otherwise be turned off you or me.

Quote from: vukapg on May 16, 2014, 01:18:06 PMThe only people who can speak about what it is like to be trans are trans folk.

Much as I hate to jump into this thread again...

I have to disagree with this statement.  While I'd much prefer it was only trans people who are speaking on behalf of trans people, we don't have the luxury - yet - of dictating the ownership of the debate and who may participate.

If someone competent and who commands an audience wants to speak to that audience positively on our behalf, then that's cool with me.  Not ideal, but cool.  Going back to Jared Leto's portrayal of Rayon in DBC, while it would have been preferable to have a great actor/actress with trans credentials play that role, there was far more good than harm done by him knocking it out of the park and winning an Oscar.  It might have been better (or at least more noteworthy) if a trans actor/actress had been picked, but that's beside the point.  An example of a perfect situation would be Laverne Cox in OITNB; trans actress playing a trans role.  But things like that come along once in a blue moon.

Trying to dictate who can and can't speak for us is futile.  We need all the allies we can get right now, even allies who are less-than-perfect.  And we also need to be our own strongest allies by making sure that we don't give cis people a reason to point at us and what we do/say/write and think to himself or herself, "Yeah, that's why I don't like those crazy trans people."  Best behavior when in public (or at least try - I too have been known to set a bad example at times, although alcohol is raising its hand too and admitting its role in the debauchery), and that includes not deliberately shaming a writer and alienating ourselves from our friends in the process.

That's not to say that this issue can't be raised in a mature and cooperative manner.  We're perfectly entitled (and expected) to point out to others why we should be the subject matter experts, but we should also temper our expectations and not let a dozen good opportunities slip past while waiting for that one perfect opportunity.  We gotta work with what we have.

As a side note, anyone on this board is welcome to sit down and spend months researching and writing a better trans-related book.   ;)

I agree that allies are important, but allies don't speak for us. I think it's inappropriate for an ally to *WANT* to take such a position esp with the presence of qualified trans people to do the speaking. I think there is a place for a doctor (such an endocrinologist) talking aspects of trans treatment or something. But it sounds like the group is comfortable with trans people taking a minor role and the cis person to take the lead. It sounds like the group took Suzi's idea and went and found a cis person to do this job.

Really trans people writing books?! Lots of trans people have written books!! There are tons of very poorly written books written about trans people by cis people.


--Jay

You speak the truth, Jay.  It is weird for an outsider to want to speak for us (e.g. a cis author), rather than someone whose professional activities naturally coincide with us (e.g. medical professionals).  A subtle but important difference.  I'm still not entirely convinced that Trans 101 is something that an educated, informed cis person couldn't teach, but I see the point now that the implicit message conveyed by the choice of the speaker tends to negate any positives the speaker may otherwise bring.

Quote from: __________ on May 16, 2014, 08:45:17 PM
You speak the truth, Jay.  It is weird for an outsider to want to speak for us (e.g. a cis author), rather than someone whose professional activities naturally coincide with us (e.g. medical professionals).  A subtle but important difference.  I'm still not entirely convinced that Trans 101 is something that an educated, informed cis person couldn't teach, but I see the point now that the implicit message conveyed by the choice of the speaker tends to negate any positives the speaker may otherwise bring.

Thanks. I can think of cis family members(spouses or parents) and I am thinking of actual people here who could probably do an awesome Trans 101 type thing. But these are people with a stake in the community. I can think of times when a cis doctor or something could do a presentation that might be quite excellent (though I tend to think those with a special insight are maybe less common-- someone like Dr Brownstein who's a retired top surgeon is someone I would love to listen to). Still it's not so much that someone of the right mindset *couldn't* do this given the lack of other qualified people. I am more suspicious though of a cis person coming into a group of trans people and *wanting* to be in charge. Part of being a good ally is being able to take a second or even third tier.

--Jay

Quote from: __________ on May 16, 2014, 03:48:06 PM
Trying to dictate who can and can't speak for us is futile. 

That's a really wise statement.

But IMO, we can and must call out people and situations where our voice is marginalized and it is assumed that because a cisgender person is declared an expert by other cisgender people, they actually understand us.

There's a difference between dictating who can speak and vocally pointing out which speakers deserve attention, right?

Also, the vast majority of cis-gender people cannot give a decent speech or make a presentation. I used to train people to do this and most people simply freeze in front of an audience and their mind goes blank. There is nothing magic about being "cis" to do this.

Quote from: vukapg on May 16, 2014, 10:19:33 AM
So, teach them all a lesson. Go and give no warning of what you intend to say then stand up and start with

"Here in this meeting is an example of how trans people are marginalised. In a meeting about what it means to be trans I am the supporting speaker and not the main speaker. The main speaker is a cis-person. Your opinions about what I feel and what I think are being influenced by someone who has no first hand experience of what being trans really means. Meeting trans people, writing about trans people and knowing trans people is no substitute for being trans"

I would then put the following point

"How would those of you who are gay feel about being the supporting speaker in a meeting where a straight person describes the gay experience? Think about that."

At this point you might get asked to leave.....   ;)  If I had the opportunity, I would do it without a second thought, but I refuse to cross the Atlantic to give a talk.

Huzzah!!    Excellent tips!!  Yes, you might get asked to leave, or be cut off, but you would (I hope) get enough out there for the group to think about.

Suzi..  If I were in your shoes, and asked by a close friend to speak there, and informed that someone giving the bulk of the presentation has no earthly idea what it means to be trans, regardless of how many books they have written, I would have a heart-to-heart talk with your organizer friend and say whats on your heart about being second-placed, and described by someone who has no clue what you feel. 

How can someone colorblind, describe the color orange?  How can someone blind, describe a sunset?

Quote from: Annie Maier on May 16, 2014, 10:39:56 AM
Wow, you really touched a nerve in many of us.

But then I began to examine the depth of my reaction,  all my assumptions and internal prejudices, and try to understand why am I reacting this way. Perhaps it's that I still believe other are out to exploit me in some way. And that's really not fair. It really comes down to what would be MY goal in participating and can I achieve it. If it's something I believe in, then what others may have in mind is really their business. My inclination to antagonize the author is really a reflection of the fact that I have some work to do with me.

I definitely disagree with this pov. I think if you distill this down then you are saying that those of us who are activists or advocates are just people who are really personally angry about stuff in our own lives and need to work on this so we won't be so angry and upset anymore. I hope you didn't actually mean this.

If that actually is the case, I hope those of you that identify with such terms don't work on your issues, because where are we going to be as a group if people deal with their stuff.  :)

--Jay

Remember this one: Three blind people try to describe an elephant..  what's the difference here?  Instead of three, its only one (the ciswoman), the other two, can see.